How About Some More Dead Arm, Mr. Oswalt?

GAME 121 IN-GAME DISCUSSION THREAD [PARACHAT] CHICAGO CUBS (58-62) @ HOUSTON ASTROS (64-55) MINUTE MAID PARK, 6:05 pm CDT, TV: ESPN
Roy Oswalt, RHP
14-9, 2.57 ERA
1123/34 K/BB, 12 HR in 178.2 IP
Carlos Zambrano, RHP
9-9, 4.54 ERA
96/26 K/BB, 21 HR in 156.2 IP
LF *Matt Lawton CF Wily Taveras
2B *Todd Walker 2B Craig Biggio
1B Derrek Lee LF #Lance Berkman
3B Aramis Ramirez 3B Morgan Ensberg
SS Nomar Garciaparra 1B *Mike Lamb
CF *Corey Patterson RF *Orlando Palmeiro
RF *Jeromy Burnitz SS Adam Everett
C Michael Barrett C Brad Ausmus
P #Carlos Zambrano P Roy Oswalt
Man, I like typing that # before Big Z's name. How silly is it that he switch-hits? I think it's one of the coolest things going. I'm happy to see that the lineup seems to be stabilizing over the last week or so -- we have a Lawton/Murton platoon in left, Blanco catches Maddux and Prior, and the 3-4-5 is Lee-Ramirez-Nomar. Pretty much the way it should be. PS -- Davey Johnson is managing again, and managing a team of youngsters to boot. Just sayin'.
Return to Homepage

Comments

Good job ARam to pick up Lee to get a run in. Cubs get lead early...WOO!!!

Pretty good inning by the Cubs. Oswalt has got good velocity tonight. Cubs should all sit dead red on that fastball because he's throwing it right down the middle if it's a strike...otherwise he's throwing in or high.

nice Z

nice Z

20 pitches and 4 Ks already for big z... let's see if he can help himself with the bat.

Boom! Big Z goes yard!

Way to go Nomar.

Sign him up for next year!

Jeromy Burnitz is now officially useless. His slump has turned into a sucktacular series of at bats and he added nothing during the offense's down stretch. I'd rather see Murton in the line-up every day and Burnitz coming off the bench for the rest of the season. Then again, the punchless and "forgot how to draw a walk now that I'm a Cub, big surprise" Matt Lawton is fairing little better. Is Jason Dubois available?

Nomar might have just reinjured himself.

When it rains it pours.

Nomar out. This is truly a shame. He's been swinging the bat well but this HAS to convince Hendry that Nomar is too big of a risk for 06. That money is better spent elsewhere (see Damon, Zito, Dunn)

Let Ronny Cedeno have a shot and then trade midseason if it doesn't work out.

Z being very economical with his pitches. Hopefully he can go deep so that we can avoid using our bullpen!

Garciaparra left the game with lower back stiffness. And thank the baseball gods for that. At least it's not his groin. "Lower back stiffness" is usually merely a nagging, day-to-day thing that can often clear up quickly.

I've come not to trust the Cubs and injury reports. today it's lower back stiffness, in three days it'll be lower back stiffness that somehow has now complicated his groin injury.

Lower back stiffness is something you get from a bad matress or sleeping wrong on it. I am not worried about it.

Lower back stiffness is also a good diagnosis to take you out of just one game...after a pitcher gets shelled (you know...rather than just say the other team had your number and beat you...you say you were hurting with lower back pain...also known as the Carlo Zambrano/Kerry Wood syndrome)...or after a SS throws a ball into the dugout and 2 runs score....

comes in handy.

Barrett comes through with a deep flyball to the opposite field, recording a huge sac fly for what could be the most important run of the game as the Cubs now have a two-run cushion.

Barrett now has 51 RBIs, second to Piazza among NL catchers. And Barrett has spent a good chunk of the year batting in the thankless seventh and eighth spots in the order.

Yeah, let's get rid of Barrett and his bat. Goooood idea.

I can't believe that you're calling out Zambrano as a wuss, Cubfan. Particularly on a night when he's fighting the flu and putting up a balls-to-the-wall pitching performance in an absolute must-win game for the Cubs.

Man, talk about extraordinarily bad timing on your part.

huge sigh of relief

Zambrano > bad Cubs defense

1. Lower back stiffness could be related to the groin injury. If you remember from the surgery, Nomar had some abdominal problems too. The adductor longus and rectus abdominus insert into the same pelvic bone. His abs. probably became weaker due to underuse after the surgery. One of things physical therapists will always tell you to do for your back is to work on your abdominal muscles. They work together to keep your pelvis in a good alignment. One run would have scored on that play anyway. There was nobody out.

2. The guy on second was safe on Neifi's play. Frankly, I'm glad the umpire called it on him. I'm kind of sick of seeing the "neighborhood" play that Bob called it.

Yeah Cubfan, Carlos is a big wuss. Whatever.

Good to see Barrett call a good game. His offensive benefit is unquestioned, but I have had some fears about his game calling. This start did much to calm my qualms.

CUBS WIN!!!!!!!!!! IN DUSTY WE TRUSTY!!!!!!!

Winner of 5 of 7.....

Day off then take 2 of 3 (or maybe sweep) COL and we might be like 4 out. Well within reach with 35 games to go....

Keep teh faith!!!!

I guess you made my point merigold. The cubs always give some good news ("not so bad/minor, day-to-day") then come back later and tell how it made things worse with his original injury.

not calling Zambrano a wuss at all....just saying when he has a bad outing--look for some physical ailment to be explained...

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/g...

Carlos Zambrano said he was still bothered by a blister on his right hand. (4.2 IP, 7 hits, 6 ER)

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/w...

Carlos Zambrano has a slight case of tennis elbow, and it's not clear whether he'll make his next start.
Zambrano had to leave Saturday night's game against the Washington Nationals after 3 1/3 innings because of soreness in his right elbow. He will be examined Sunday. (3.1 IP, 4 H 4 ER)

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/w...

Carlos Zambrano exited after three innings due to back tightness, allowing four runs, two earned, and walking three. Jose Macias drove in Chicago's only run on a double in the eighth as the Cubs lost their fifth straight. (3.0 IP 4H 44R 2ER)....

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/g...

At least it wasn't painful. Cubs starter Carlos Zambrano gave up four runs on five hits over five innings before he had to leave the game with a sprained left big toe injured when he slid into second base in the fifth. X-rays were negative, and he was not expected to miss his next start.
(5.0 IP, 5H 4ER)

Yes there are some games Carlos has gotten rocked with no "apparant" ailment...but there sure are quite a few.

And then there is Wood--
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/w...

Kerry Wood was pulled after three innings with tendinitis in his right shoulder. (3.0 IP 4H 3ER)

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/w...

After giving up three solo shots, Kerry Wood left in the third with stiffness in his right shoulder. (3.0 IP 4H 3ER)--notice almost identical numbers as his first injury.

But surprisingly he's throwing flames now in relief and showing no signs of having any troubling arm injury or ailment....interesting??

Yep I do believe they use injuries to protect their fragile egos.

Or, perhaps CubFan, their injuries contribute to and/or cause their bad performances.

"But surprisingly he's throwing flames now in relief and showing no signs of having any troubling arm injury or ailment....interesting??

Yep I do believe they use injuries to protect their fragile egos."

ummm

uh...

ummmmm....

can i buy some pot from you?

The Cubs Win....They Win 2 Series in a row....Lets see what they can do in Colorado...;-)

If we sweep COL we will be .500 at 62-62. with 37 to play. That would mean going to have to win 26 to 31 games to make the playoffs. This team can't do that.

Scott/MannyTrillo and Chifan accurately described my two minds about the rest of the season, the fan and the realist.

Look at it this way... we only have to make up 1 game a week for the rest of the year.

That makes things seem much more doable.

"Look at it this way... we only have to make up 1 game a week for the rest of the year."

THE CUBS CAN DO IT...they are hungry now and have a chance...they MUST win every series...Take it game by game...The Cubs may surprise the critics...;-)

An ounce of hope in a ocean of tears

Scott, you are by far my favorite poster. I mean that.

I feel that it's more fun to think your team can do it than to expect them to fail and then still be pissed off when they do. Doesn't seem like a good way to approach baseball.

Anyway, I'm with you, Scott. Go Cubs.

Yeah, um, guinessman, you've used that line a few times now on this board. Stop, please. Post whatever but please stop with the pseudo-romanticism, or at least make it positive.

the cubs "fate" has been in their hands since the ATL series...the first true nail in the coffin of the season.

that said...philly/houston/florida are gonna have to start failing and washington needs to continue going down the toilet. i guess the mets are the brews are worth giving some consideration to since theyre in front.

there's not much direct competition with these teams coming up except a chunk of houston late...a lotta houston...

but the team isnt facing scrubs here on out outside of houston...there's 2 series vs. stl to go, florida, atlanta, dodgers...etc.

so at this point, esp. after the florida series to end this month...the only thing the cubs can do is just win to stay in it without effecting too much of the WC race til the houston series rolls around the last 2 weeks of the season.

Pitching prowess brings Cubs win

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_re...

After today's action:

Good (true .600 team) and lucky (1 %ile probability): finish 32-9 for 91-71, can be tied by:

Houston or Philadelphia 27-15
Washington 28-15
Florida 29-14
New York 30-13

That scenario, in English, is what'll happen if the Cubs play like a 97-win team from here on out and get a large amount of the breaks. That's a lot to ask on both counts. More realistic is:

Kinda good (true .550 team) and kinda lucky (10 %ile probability): finish 27-14 for 86-76, can be tied by:

Houston or Philadelphia 22-20
Washington 23-20
Florida 24-19
New York 25-18

Today's games, with the teams above us winning and losing in equal numbers, illustrates the problem. At least one of those teams in the second scenario is all but guaranteed to beat their mark, while there's a pretty big chance the Cubs won't even do that well.

Echoing Crunch, the Cubs more or less sealed their fate with the ATL dive. They need to play ridiculously well and get all the breaks in their games and hope that nobody else catches fire. I'd like to hope too, but this is going to be over sooner rather than later, in spite of the inspired play they've shown recently.

But surprisingly he's throwing flames now in relief and showing no signs of having any troubling arm injury or ailment....interesting??

No...not very interesting. It just might have to do with the fact that he is only pitching ONE inning at a time. Something tells me the lack of injuries has more to do with that than his ego.

Good break down Ron. If the Cubs were smart they would pack in the rest of the 40 games. by that I mean play the kids who might make an impact (Cedeno, Guzman{BP in mid sept.}Hill,Murton,Nolasco Pie, Pinto, JVB)Trade Walker who has already cleared waivers to teams in the hunt who could use 2b help (BOS,NYM,and OAK) Holly cleared waivers trade him to a team in the NL where his PH abilites are valuable. Put Burny and Lawton on waivers and who ever cliams them can have them.

Basically the Cubs have to be 29-10 or better and the Astros have to be 25-15 or worse. If the Cubs are better than the Astros, I still think the NL East beats up on each other and the Cubs can sneak past all of them.
Here's what I think the rest of the teams have to do:
Washington 26-15
Philadelphia 25-15
Florida 27-13
NY Mets 28-13
Milwaukee 29-10

Whoops, it's a 162 game season not 160. Too much beer. But I hope you get the picture.

"He first experienced back pain in the second inning, after diving for a ground ball hit by Astros OF Orlando Palmeiro, but felt okay when he hit a solo home run two innings later. However, Garciaparra decided to exit the game in the fifth inning, when he had trouble moving around in the field. "I'm not really concerned about it," Garciaparra said. "I know it's muscle, and nothing other than that. I know it's matter of calming down. It's a good thing we have the day off tomorrow. I think with that day off and rest, I'll be ready to go.""

phew...at least he didnt rip his vagina open again...saves us all from one big 200 post neifi vs. cedeno fest.

hehe...

decent news from "down on the farm"....

mcclain's been seeing more time at 1st while fontenot has been seeing more time at 3rd...about time, honestly.

mcclain isnt much of anything, but having him play 1st and fontenot seeing more time at 3rd makes sense for the parent club...fontenot's supposed to take over the 3rd/2nd role off the bench eventually.

and grieve is still in a months-long spin...he just cant get anything going since his last bout of injury.

hairston should be back soon...wee.

hmmm...maybe Guzzie and KW can do 8th inning alternating days?

Rookie Level Arizona League ----

TM PITCHER IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA

CHC A.Guzman 3.0 3 0 0 0 3 0 0.00

You all talk about getting breaks from other teams...

So when Philadelphia and Florida are playing in a 3 game series...what kind of breaks in that series lets the Cubs gain ground on both of them? Then that same night NYM and Wash....3 game series...what breaks you looking for? If we catch the Mets...that means Washington swept them...and if the Mets sweep Washington...that means Washington keeps a pretty decent lead on us....

Oh and lets not forget Houston with perhaps the easiest of all schedules.....(my prediction is Houston caves...but not to the point they fall below the Brewers or the Cubs....but will fall behind two teams in the East...my prediction is Philadelphia wins the wildcard by 2 games over Washington)

If we catch the Mets...that means Washington swept them...and if the Mets sweep Washington...that means Washington keeps a pretty decent lead on us....

That should read..."if we catch the Mets that means Washington swept them and Washington keeps a pretty decent lead on us...and if the Mets sweep Washington that means both those team still hold a 3 game lead over us....

Another factoid:

The Cubs play more games (18) against bad teams (Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and the West excluding SD) than anybody else. Others:

Philadelphia, New York 12
Houston 10 (CIN, LA, PIT)
Washington 6 (CIN, SF)
Florida 4 (LA)

Not sure about the Lawton/Murton platoon in left right now (it sure appears that's what Dusty's going with, and that's what I'd like to see). Hairston is coming off the DL, and today's Trib has this blurb:

Jerry Hairston Jr. will rejoin the team Friday in Colorado, forcing the Cubs to consider returning outfielder Matt Murton to the minors. The Cubs added a 12th pitcher when Hairston was placed on the disabled list with an injured left elbow and are unlikely to go back to 11 before the weekend series at hitter-friendly Coors Field.

I'm not sure if that's purely speculation (it could be since no one is quoted), but that is an interesting thought to have. It'd be a shame to demote Murton. I can't think of another team that wouldn't have tried to ride out his hot streak.

What's sad about these last 2 series, is that they show just how badly the Cubs have been underachieving this year.

It's more evidence that Hendry brought in enough talent to compete for the playoff. And it's more evidence showing this team only plays up to its potential when if feels like it.

I can't blame anyone for holding out hope since there still is a mathematical chance of making the playoffs, but sad to say, this team is done.

They'll probably find a way to finish with 82-83 wins, doing just enough to tease people into thinking they're in a playoff race, and win just enough to say that Dusty has now brought "back to back to back" winning seasons (after all, that's what really matters, right?). But make no mistake about it, this team will not make the playoffs, and it will have nothing to do with a lack of talent.

In Dumbass We Trust!!!!

I love the "the Cubs have to win 26 of 31 to make the playoffs" comment. I didn't realize there was a pre-determined number of wins that you had to reach in order to be eligible.

Also found the "ride the Murton hot streak" comment interesting. I was ripped weeks ago (can't remember who did it) for suggesting that you keep players in the lineup who are doing well. I was told that that wasn't a good approach.

And, to reiterate something I also said weeks ago, no one said back-to-back-back winning seasons were "good enough." The point is, after years of absolute futility, sprinkled in with rare playoff appearances, this organization is now competitive. Being a fan for 40 years, I will take that much more easily than the alternative.

Now back to the regularly scheduled griping.

I wonder if so many HOU fans last year thought their team was "done" last year about this time when they were many games back and behind many teams? If so, they missed a nice ride to the playoffs.

Again, I ma not saying the Cubs will make the playoffs, but it is not that impossible and with another good series this weekend we could be like 4 games back or so with almost 40 games to go.

Instead of constantly coming up with ways to show the Cubs most likely will not make the playoffs, or bash the team, players, and management, sit back and try and enjoy the ride...

In Dusty We Trusty!! Go Cubs!!

Bob, if you ask people why Dusty is the right manager for the Cubs, you'll typically get two responses, one is "he gets the most out of his players" which simply isn't true, the other is "he's the first manager to bring the cubs back to back winning season in 30 years."

Manny, If I remember correctly, it was just last week, you yourself said something along the lines of the Cubs would never win unless Jim Hendry massively changes the make up of the team and you were selling off your seasons and wouldn't go to the ballpark in protest.

Like I said, I don't blame anyone for holding out hope. But based on what I've seen from this team over the past 2 years, I don't see anyway that they're going to play up to their potential all the way to the end of the season, and even if they did, it still is probably too late.

I don't know about Houston fans last year, Manny, but whatever that number is, it pales in comparison to all the fans who of teams who were just a 40-game stretch of .800 ball away from the playoffs. Only a quarter of the season, no big deal. Those fans didn't miss a damn thing.

One of my favorite media themes recently has been the "If only the Cubs can pull a 2004 Astros" line. There's a reason what the Astros did was remarkable, and that reason is outlined above in my #39. For the next five years, those two months the Astros rattled off are going to have the Cubs thinking they're contenders as long as they're less than 10 games out and behind no more than five teams in the middle of August.

As tired as many in the TCR community are of what's unfairly been termed "pessimism" (in the context of this year's "playoff chase"), a good deal of the rest of us are tired of short-term thinking. While it isn't that time yet, if the Cubs do anything less than 10-2 the rest of the month, they're done. At that point the "still a chance--remember the Astros?" mentality is going to result in taxing the starters, keeping the people who could help this team next year out of MLB games, and a chance to wave goodbye to Burnitz and Macias and praise "all they've done for us."

"I didn't realize there was a pre-determined number of wins that you had to reach in order to be eligible."

Your straw man is burning. Of course there isn't a pre-determined number, but its pretty easy to look at the competition, see how many games they've already won, make an educated guess at how many they will win from here on out, and realize that, if the Cubs go 20-19 from here on out, they won't make the plyoffs.

Cubfan you are far too caught up with us catching other teams. It is very possible for us to out play them all. If Washington plays Philly and wins two of three then goes on to play Florida and loses two of three that is .500 baseball. It is quite easy for that to happen. So quit harping on it. You act like a team is going to sweep every team they play. It may happen that way and if the Nationals get really really hot, we will not catch them. But the Cubs can outplay the rest of the teams ahead of them. Like I said, if every team ahead of the Cubs plays to their current win %, and the Cubs play out of their heads awesome, the Cubs will catch them. End of story.

Blue:
"Manny, If I remember correctly, it was just last week, you yourself said something along the lines of the Cubs would never win unless Jim Hendry massively changes the make up of the team and you were selling off your seasons and wouldn't go to the ballpark in protest."

That is mostly correct, I won't nitpick the few inaccuratcies. But I don't go to Wrigley to watch the team and "financially" support the team when they are playing bad baseball. It is not worth the 30 minute drive, the $50 parking/food/drinks/scorecard, nor the $$$$ I could sell the tickets for (instead I watch at home). Also, for this team to win (consistantly make playoffs and have legit WS hopes), I do believe Hendry needs to make big changes. But that does not mean this team can't get hot and make the playoffs or at least end up respectfully.

This is the Cubs, the biggest tease in the sports world now that Boston finally won the thing. Because of the excellent pitching we have won a few games with the usual tepid offense. 5 runs on Sunday and 4 runs the last three games and I believe only 1 run on Saturday. Although 0-4s and 1-5s will drag down an offense, and that is what we get from the outfield positions (even Murton seems to have caught the hacking virus which to me pre-dates Dusty in the Cubs' clubhouse culture; it is something that seems to have been past down by the Hawk and Dunston and Moreland to the present generation of Cub players.) Also Derek Lee needs a couple of consecutve days off as his bat seems tired and his at bats not as focused as they were earlier in the season.

Nevertheless, not that this is a great team, but they are good enough with a little luck to win 20 out of 30. They have not had one yet so why not now. So, I think we can wait until September and we can officially put a fork in them to bring up the flotsam and jetsam of the Cubs minor league system for us to dream on.

Thinking next year, I hope the Cubs sit down with Garcippara and his agent and see if he is willing to move to LF. If he is I would be willing to give him a 2 year contract. I don't think his body can take the wear and tear of the infield positions (2B are more injury prone then SS) and when he is hurting his defense hurts the team. Then Cubs would have a decision to make; blow their free agent check book on Furcal, or gamble on Cedeno/Perez at SS next season and spend the money on Johnny Damon, Brian Giles and/or A.J. Burnett. What say you TCR posters?

I have bashed Jim Hendry on the farm system and player development this season. He and Gary Hughes have let their toolsy biases in scouting young player and cronyism in hiring managers, coaches and scouts to provide a barren harvest from the farm system the last two years. But I have to say that. after Walt Jocketty, he has done a great job using the trade route to acquire some great talent by trade. Lee, Ramirez, and Barrett are all near the top of their positions in the NL (see baseballprospectus.com VORP rating by position) and were obtained for practically nothing (at least that is one advantage when your farm system gets hype and overrated; you can trade your fool's gold for the real thing). With Prior and Zambrano (and perhaps Wood, Dempster, and Maddux), those guys provide a core of great talent. Hopefully, next year both skill and luck will bring us to the promise land. We have now been in the wilderness 20 years more then the Israelites!

Bob,

BP has the Cubs odds 2.50%. There simultors have the average at 86-76 WC win for Hou and PHI. The Cubs would have to go 27-14 to match that. Never mind that I doubt 86 will win it. The average to win the NL WC has been 89 and to get there the Cubs would have to be 30-11.

Manny,

The big differnce bewteen the 04 WC and the 05 WC is that the Astros were chasing 1 team from the centeral 2 from the east (PHI, FLA), and 2 from the west(SD, SF). We have to chase 1 from the centeral and 4 from the east. The net result is that somebody will stay even with us consistently and it will be extermly diffult even to make ground up aganist 3 teams ahead of us.

Like I said Manny, I fully expect this team to make a teasing run at the playoffs, but I don't think they have a prayer of actually seeing the post-season.

Before you tell others to "enjoy the ride," and wonder if Astros fans wrote off their team last year, just remember, you wrote this team off last week.

#54 of 107: By mannytrillo (August 11, 2005 10:02 AM)
At least I am getting something out of this non playoff season.

Blue-
One post of me talking about selling my season tickets after a 8 game losing streak is writing off the season? OK, if u say so...

I didn't think the Cubs were going to win teh WS when the season started, so technically I wrote it off in April...:)

At that point before the STL series it did appear the playoffs were a pipe dream. And in fact, IT STILL DOES, but my point, like it was in post #58 of this thread, was I am not going to Wrigley and instead sell the tickets to make $$$, until the Cubs play better. But I am still watching the games, wathcing the scoreboards and the like, hoping for the playoffs.

Just because I said on August 11th this was a "non playoff season", which I still think today, doesn't mean they don't have a shot and for me to give up on the team and constantly find show W/L scenerios they won't make the playoffs instead of rooting for them to do so. And hoping they do....

But hey, each is their own...GO CUBS!!

You can think whatever you want about the playoffs, that's not my point. My point is that is if one week you're saying the Cubs aren't a playoff team, you seem a bit hypocritical wondering a week later 'if so many HOU fans thought their team was done last year.'

Honestly, I wish the Cubs would "give up". Dusty has made it very clear he's not going to change his approach as long as the Cubs are still in the race, and its also pretty clear his approach isn't working.

We're probably going to see Murton optioned at the end of the week, which seems foolish on a team that has is all but eliminated from the playoffs. I'd much rather see some veterans who wont be with the team next year anyway either traded or DFA'ed, so we can start getting a feel for who will be able to contribute in 2006. And who knows, maybe doing that would be enough of a spark to propel the team to an improbable playoff push.

Blue:
"you seem a bit hypocritical wondering a week later 'if so many HOU fans thought their team was done last year.'"

If that is how you feel, so be it...

Murton will probably get optioned so we can sign Kirk Rueter......

I will say it clearly and bluntly -

The Cubs are done as a playoff contender in 2005.
Yes, mathematically, they are still in the hunt, but from a practical POV and given the Cubs long history, they will be watching the postseason from outside the lines this fall.

So, I turn my attention to 06 and if it were my call, I would build around our strengths:

Pitching - Z, Prior and Maddux

Offense - Lee and Aram.

Catching - Barrett and Blanco stay

Pen - Dempster and Ohman

Everyone else is in play, either because of free agency or performance/health issues.

I don't think Wood will agree to a bullpen slot; he strikes me as a stubborn stallion who still sees himself as a rotation guy. Both Nomar and Walker will be one year older and neither play defense to the level that we need (although, I like Cubfaningermany's idea about moving Nomar to LF, as his bat is potent enough to play a corner position; still, a bit radical for Hendry, but who knows?).

The outfield is a bloody mess and no one should be back except for Murton. Corey should be moved, Burnitz, Holly, Hairston, and Lawton let go.

Use the available salary (if the trib doesn't force a cut on Hendry) to rebuild the roster.

One other thing: I love K's as much as the next guy, but Hendry should try and leverage trades or sign guys who are groundball pitchers (defense in the middle!!), who can field their position and throw strikes.

Finally, in my heart of hearts, I don't think Jim Hendry really has the smarts to recognize how to build a championship caliber team. I could be wrong, but gazing at the guys we have drafted and nurtured through our minor league system as well as some of the trades that he has engineered, leave me thinking that that he misses the important things when identifying solutions.

We don't have the tools to go on a run like the astros did. we have one horse (Z) and a stable of fairly average pitchers in the rotation, Mark Prior included.

Wish in one hand and shit in the other. See which gets filled first.

Crunch (#44),

I don't know if you came up with that description of Nomar's injury yourself, but it's hilarious. Sometimes people swear or use sexual words for pure shock value, and I find it nothing more than boring. But in the right context, it's awesome.

Nice work.

from post #50 which was an excerpt of a Trib article:

Jerry Hairston Jr. will rejoin the team Friday in Colorado, forcing the Cubs to consider returning outfielder Matt Murton to the minors. The Cubs added a 12th pitcher when Hairston was placed on the disabled list with an injured left elbow and are unlikely to go back to 11 before the weekend series at hitter-friendly Coors Field.

When did we ever go down to 11 pitchers? Did I miss that?

ROB G: Trib got it wrong.

Hairston went on the DL the same day Mitre was sent to AAA and Remlinger got DFA'd, which was when Wood, Williamson, and Garciaparra were activated from the DL.

So that was two pitchers (Wood & Williamson) replacing two pitchers (Mitre & Remlinger), and one position player (Garciaparra) replacing one position player (Hairston).

BTW, why not just keep Hairston on the DL until September 1st when the rosters are expanded? It's only two more weeks.

Sending Murton down now will burn up one of his three option years.

Meanwhile,

Jermaine Van Buren who tied the Iowa Cubs record for single season saves may not be brought up in September because he's not on the 40 man roster.
....

That's what the man said.

CWP: If the Cubs really wanted to bring up Jermaine Van Buren, but don't only because there isn't room on the 40-man roster, they can just transfer Adam Greenberg to the 60-day DL. Even if Greenberg does play again before the end of the season, it will be in AA or AAA, and he can do that while he is on the 60-day DL as part of a "rehab" assignment.

Or the Cubs could DFA Richard Lewis, Russ Rohlicek, Jon Leicester, or John Koronka, all of whom will probably be dropped from the 40-man roster at the end of the season anyway.

Rob's guess at Sept. call-ups:

Rich HIll
Sergio Mitre
Mike Fontenot
Ronny Cedeno
Geovany Soto
Ben Grieve

Cubs.com shows Bartosh still on the 40 man, but I don't think that's the case, if so, I'd expect him back too.

Felix Pie & Adam Greenberg may also get called up if they show that they're over their injuries and if Murton gets sent down, then he'll definitely get called back up.

oh yeah, Koronka may get called up too. And what we really could use as a Sept call-up is a speed guy off the bench, someone like Dwaine Bacon or Chris Walker who can get you a stolen base late in a game (assuming we're still in it). There's nobody like that on our 40 man though.

Sending Murton down now will burn up one of his three option years.

This year already counts as an option year for Murton because he spent the first half of the season on the 40-man, but not on the 25-man. A player need not be sent down to use an option year.

Regardless, it would be idiotic to send down Murton.

Murton wasn't on the 40 man until he got called up

Murton wasn't on the 40 man until he got called up

Are you sure? The moves were to call up Greenberg and Murton and send down Patterson and DuBois. There weren't corresponding 40-man moves, AFAICT.

Hey I don't usually like to be a rumor monger, but this is too big to keep quiet. Word is that Clemens and Johnny Damon failed their steroids tests and are about to be outed by MLB. This is from a good source who also called the Palmiero thing before the fact.

Just sayin.'

Are you sure? The moves were to call up Greenberg and Murton and send down Patterson and DuBois. There weren't corresponding 40-man moves, AFAICT.

Though I suppose it's possible that there were open spots on the 40-man, but I can't recall that being the case.

I believe there was room on the 40 man when both were called up due to all those guys on the 60 day DL. When the move was made, the terminology used was that Murton and Greenberg were PURCHASED from AA West Tenn which generally indicates an addition to the 40 man roster. When they get called up, it's usually coined as a recall. I'm not in the mood to go through the whole process of where we were at in the 40 man roster at that time, but I'm pretty sure about this.

RE: Murton and 40-man

Ok, I found some comments from June 29th from this site that indicated that there were, in fact, open spots on the 40-man roster, one of which would have been taken by Murton when he was called up.

I should have known better than to be so presumptious as to correct AZPhil on a 40-man roster issue. :-)

So I stand corrected. Apologies to all.

Hey I don't usually like to be a rumor monger, but this is too big to keep quiet. Word is that Clemens and Johnny Damon failed their steroids tests and are about to be outed by MLB. This is from a good source who also called the Palmiero thing before the fact.

Did you see this on a White Sox message board with a guy saying "Don't shoot the messenger"

That guy talked about it at one place referring to another place where he posted it because it has similar expressions, like don't shoot the messenger. I hate Roger Clemens with a passion so I hope it happens.

When they got called up I did write this and I assume I had some basis for it...

http://www.all-baseball.com/cubreporter/archi...

"Both players will have to be added to the 40 man roster."

IENPW -- I hadn't seen it anywhere else -- I heard about it from a friend who is relatively connected. But who knows, he and the Sox guy may have the same incorrect source.

Interesting. It is on SOSH, too. The more big names that get suspended is just more trust in the system for me.

433,

If that is true stick a fork in HOU. If that is true one has to wonder about Pettitte those 2 are so tight that if he wasn't doing it with him he had to know.

ROB G: Cliff Bartosh is NOT on the 40-man roster. He was sent outright to IOwa when he got sent down because he was out of options, which is how it was the Cubs got him from Cleveland in the first place (for Bear Bay)... bad trade, BTW.

I would expect the follwind Sept call-ups:

FOR SURE:
1. Sergio Mitre
2. Ronny Cedeno
3. Matt Murton

LIKELY:
1. Mike Fontenot
2. Ben Grieve (as reward for accepting option to AAA)
3. Rich Hill (to be the #2 LOOGY)
4. Geovany Soto (a 3rd catcher is always added on 9-1)
5. Jermaine Van Buren (as an extra arm in pen)

POSSIBLE (if Cubs still in contention on 9-1):
1. Cliff Bartosh (the most LOOGYs in Sept the merrier)
2. Talley Haines
3. David Kelton
4. Scott McClain (homer in the gloamin' on finalday of season?)
5 Calvin Murray (to pinch-run)

NO WAY, JOSE CARDENAL:
David Aardsma
Angel Guzman
John Koronka
Jon Leicester
Richard Lewis
Felix Pie
Renyel Pinto
Russ Rohlicek

from rotoworld.com

Scott Rolen has reportedly been told to have season-ending surgery on his shoulder.
''I have a decision to make,'' Rolen said. ''It's a very personal decision and something I prefer to handle in private rather than publicly.'' it's still possible he will delay surgery and try to play through the pain, but it sounds like his season could be over, so his owners should make other plans. Abraham Nunez would get the bulk of playing time if Rolen shuts it down. Aug. 18 - 12:09 pm et

Consider how poorly he played while he tried to tough it out and that Abraham Nunez has been doing quite well, I think it might be better for the Cards if he does do the surgery.

IF and when I say IF I mean IF, that is true about Roger Clemens, Houston would be DONE! At first glance you have to say that Clemens would have to be stupid to use (or continue to use) steroids knowing that he would be tested, but then there's Raphael Palmiero.

My point is that for 2-plus seasons now, there has been playoff talk in earnest -- and in 2003, actual playoffs -- surrounding this team. Over the course of its recent history (I'll use my 40 years as the course), this has rarely been the case. Yeah, late 60s, early 70s, but I was a little too young to remember much about that.

I choose to think of it positively in those terms. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way, though. I realize that 2003 increased expectations (remember going into that season, I doubt many here expected them to be in the NLCS). So, it's a matter of perspective.

And the straw man comment, well, whatever. I just found it laughable that someone could pull 26-5 out of their butt and say that's what they Cubs have to do. What if the Astros -- unlikely as it would be -- went into the tank? Would the Cubs still have to go 26-5. I would think Cubs fans would know enough not to go by "strength of upcoming schedule" in figuring out how teams might do. As I recall, the Cubs had an "easy" schedule the last week of 2004 and didn't exactly take care of business.

long story short...

unless people wanna give a lotta credit to the upcoming miluakee series as a serious threat...after the florida series to end this month and the houston series at the end of sept, its totally out of the cubs hands to effect the WC race.

all they can do is just win and scoreboard watch. myself, i dont do it til the last couple weeks of the season anyway...162 is a lotta games.

On the 40-man thing Bartosh is not on it. Yes he is listed on it but the number you get from counting it is 41. Yes, I skipped fox in counting.

IENPW,
Since when is Mark Prior an average pitcher. A couple non-spectacular starts and you write him off!

Have you seen this kid pitch.

Ubelievable how fickle Cub fans can be!

Although it seems like a no-brainer to bring up as many extra pieces (LOGGYs, pinch-runners, pinch-hitters, additional relief pitchers, etc) as possible (up to 15) after Setember 1st, every player called up from the minors in September costs the Cubs $50,000 EACH (1/6 of the MLB minimum salary).

$50,000 may sound like chump change to us fat cats here at TCR, but it probably is a factor Jim Hendry has to consider. If the Cubs bring up ten guys from AAA in September, it costs the Cubs $500,000.

Fuel for the fire:

Derek in Iowa City: What's with the rumors about the two "superstars" that have tested positive for banned substances?

Rob Neyer: (3:36 PM ET ) We're hearing the same rumors at ESPN, along with some actual names. But I don't have any interest in spreading rumors. We'll know when we know.

Even more fuel:

Dan (Boston): Are you a Carpenter or Clemens man?

Rob Neyer: (3:55 PM ET ) Clemens, although that could change soon. [ ]

My life would nearly be complete if Roger Clemens tested positive for steroids. The only things missing would be a Cubs championship and Brett Favre coming out of the closet.

Every few weeks a rumor of big stars are going to get busted for steroids. And every few weeks that rumor dies. The same rumor mongers didn't even have a whiff of Rafael Palmerio.

I will believe it when someone else besides sports talk radio is spreading the rumor. They will say anything to get people to listen.

Yeah, but I'm not sure Neyer would be dropping hints if he didn't believe it.

If they get CLemens, it doesn't cook the Stros. He misses two starts, which is why the current policy is bullshit. Should be 81 games for a first offense, two years for a second offense, and life for a third, no questions asked. AND they should find a way to take legal action. After all, steroids are SUPPOSED to be illegal.

MikeC -- my source for the rumor also called the Palmiero bust right before it happened.

Actually, a 10 game suspension for a starting pitcher only really works out out to one start (misses Game 5 and Game 10, but he could pitch Game 11).

If they do bust Damon and Clemens, who thinks the policy will change pretty damn quick?

Damon? Shit, I picked a nice time to trade for him in a fantasy league...

433 --

I didn't think of that, but you're right -- it would only really be one freaking start. Houston should forfeit all of clemens' wins.

If Clemens has tested positive then #31 will rate as the best pitcher of that generation.

Clemens and Damon getting busted for steroids seems like a Yankees fan's wet dream, so color me skeptical for now.

I don't know, man. After Palmeiro? I'm going to take the opposite approach and believe it until its proven otherwise. That should teach MLB that its about to have a credibility crisis.

First off, if Clemens is found guilty, his name would be tarnished forever. Mad Dog would be cemented as the best pitcher of our era.

Secondly, Houston could win the whole damn thing. As far as I concerned, it would be tarnished. I think most fans would agree.

433-
Actually it is a 10 DAY suspension (not game), so if there are any offdays, he would be able to miss one start and pitch game 10. I know it is a small differnce but just wanted to throw it in there. Thanks for the info by the way......

Here is why I think it is true:

1. If this was all BS Neyer wouldn't have said what he did. I am sure ESPN would fire him for it to appease MLB for spreading a rumor about the best pitcher in the game.
2. This has been out for what about 4-5 hours if it were BS don't you think MLB would have a press release saying so.

Clemens and Damon getting busted for steroids seems like a Yankees fan's wet dream, so color me skeptical for now.

Clemens is as big a part of Yankee lore as he is the Red Sox now, so I don't get why you'd think that.

The number of starts that he would miss IF it is Clemens would depend on when the suspension started. Players have less control over when they serve steroid suspensions than they do normal disciplinary suspensions. With a normal suspension they can drop their appeal whenever they want and serve the suspension immediately. I think Farnsworth did just this a week or two ago when he had a strained side muscle. I would doubt that any player would drop their appeal on a steroid suspension. That being the case if the suspension started on a day that Clemens was supposed to start he'd miss two starts, day one and day 6 of the suspension.

When is the supposed conformation coming on this issue? I want to know if it's true.

And here's an issue to think about: Is a ten-day suspension worth the benefits of doing roids. I mean, if you only miss ten games, and you play 150 games on juice, isn't it worth the risk of being caught just once?

See -- that's why the policy is f'd up. I can't stand it.

Come on, this is about as believable as an NFL player going on TV and freely admitting he uses marijuana every once in a blue moon.

Any one think Clemens's back problems have anything to do with this? I mean if it came out he was a 'roid user the sh** would hit the fan. Congressional hearings again, and ESPN's top story for a week or 2 being 'roids. This way he could go on the DL with a back strain and serve a suspension that way with only Clemens and Selig knowing the truth. In my opinion Selig is enough of a weasel to do that.

Brian, i think you meant NBA.

Brian actually wasn't joking, Chad.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2...

Chad, I think Brian was talking about Randy Moss.

Actually, Randy Moss came out today in an interview on HBO saying he has used marijuana, and still does once in a blue moon--mainly during the off season.

He went on to say he hopes he doesn't get in trouble for saying so, and that kids won't hear this and think it is okay to do drugs.

Back to the main story: My old man called and said he wouldn't be surprised to see Clemens get scratched tonight now. He should've taken the season off like Bonds and Bagwell.

Brian was alluding to Randy Moss' admission of "occasional" pot use.

Wow, even Chad has never been corrected this much in two minutes before...

so some guy should get banned for half the season cause he took a supplement which isn't legally required to include nutritional ino on their labels?

10 games is fair until MLB puts out an approved supplement list...

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/mlb...

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/labwww.html

And I know I read somewhere that most clubhouses don't even have the banned substance list up in the clubhouse, that it was distributed in spring training and I"m sure forgotten by most.

Let's not be to quick the judge these fellas...

In my opinion Selig is enough of a weasel to do that.

They just banned Palmeiro right after he reached 3000 hits. Talk about bad publicity. I think Selig is quite sincere in his quest to rid the league of steroids.

And isn't there an outside agency involved? That would make it hard for Selig to cover up.

My only problem with that Rob is that they are adults. This is their job. They know how serious this issue is. They should be talking to someone with the team before placing anything in their body.

I'm sure most of us will go up the ladder before doing something at work to make sure it has an okay, so why wouldn't they if it this serious of an issue?

Chifan3887:

Major League Baseball doesn't issue statements refuting rumors. Maybe one of the players would issue a statement if this started getting actual press, or if they had a Mike-Piazza-I-Am-Not-Gay impulse, but it's loony to think that MLB would issue a statement denying this.

Rob Neyer didn't name names, and he didn't lend any credence to the rumor. He simply said folks at ESPN had heard it. I find it a bit odd he chose to answer the question in his chat, but it's probably something people were asking about and he gave an honest answer. Hardly a fireable offense.

This post is ONLY for those interested in teh Wild Card race. If you think teh Cubs are "done", please just ignore this post instead of going on and on about how they "need a prayer" or whatever. Thanks!!

Well, the Phillies won the 1st game of the DH with WASH today, so we need WASH to win the second game to even things out. If that happens and HOU loses to MIL tonight, there would basically be a 3 way tie in the WC race (maybe 4).

HOU - 57 losses
PHIL - 57 losses
WASH - 57 losses
FL - 57 losses (plays tonight)
NYM - 58 losses (plays tonight)

So that would mean the Cubs would be 5 losses back in the WC with 41 games to go.

MAN, those 3 long losing streaks were a killer...

Again, if you are past looking at scoreboards or thinking Cubs have any chance, please don't blast this post, just let it go and let the people who want to discuss it do so. Thanks!!

And they should be punished, and that's why I think the current policy is fair. You get caught once, it's a slap on the wrist, a hundred different reasons why that substance was found in your body, some excusable, others not. There are just too many variables for me to punish a player and a team for something that could have been a mistake. Maybe their was a mistake in the test itself. Just being caught is such a PR nightmare for these players, that I don't think you need to go more then 10 days.

Caught twice, stiffer penalty, obviously you're stupid or really, really unlucky. And so on and so on for a third and fourth positive test.

I wouldn't mind stiffer penalties for subsequent positive tests, but the first positive at 10 days is fine, maybe 15, but no more. You have to give people a chance to make mistakes. It's baseball, not NASA or the Army or something where people's lives are in danger.

A positive test on Palmeiro may have ended his HOF chances, same might go for Clemens. That's enough of a penalty for me. I know the Astros are ahead of us, but if let's say Nomar got caught and it turned out to be an honest mistake, you'd be pretty darn pissed.

im not telling anyone how to think, but for myself...scoreboard watching dont really mean much til the last 2 weeks or the season until a team is just squeezed (legitamately) outta the picture.

right now the cubs still are in the picture, though barely.

the cubs got stronger than any other team in MLB the past month with lawton/garciappara/wood/williamson essentially added.

still...its a long shot. for myself, i'll just let em play and worry about, if applicable, when the last couple weeks roll around. if the cubs are even close the series with houston at the end of the season should be fun.

a betting man wouldnt put much of anything on this team winning the WC, but its still too up in the air to call it dead yet.

I think 10 days is to little. I see your point, so 10 GAMES would be better. 5 for a pitcher would get them where it hurts.

I agree with you, and it goes to my statement way above. It will hurt them in the eyes of the public, media, and H.0.F. They may not get in. Even if they do, there will be an invisible asterisk. Credibility will be washed away, and they will be forever labeled. All these guys--their name will be mentioned, and the response would immediately be "he was busted for steroids." That is more punishable than any amount of games.

"There are just too many variables for me to punish a player and a team for something that could have been a mistake."

I agree Rob G. The fact that Palmeiro was suspended wasn't all that bad in my mind -- it was actually his admission of using a steroid that was so damaging, a steroid later leaked as being Winstrol. If we remember the discussion a few weeks ago, ephedrine is even on the banned substance list -- something a player could easily use to treat cold or flu symptoms. But when the substance is steroids, especially one that apparently is as rare and recognizable as Winstrol, there should be no leniency in penalties dispensed. I'll give some players the benefit of the doubt if steroids are not specifically attributed, but not with Palmeiro. He clearly knew the rules and, whether it was before or after the Congressional hearings, violated them.

At this point, until we learn more, we don't know if 1) Damon and/or Clemens violated the banned substance policy or 2) if they violated it by using steroids. The latter possibility is the one that is much more damning in my mind. Nonetheless, IF Clemens used steroids that sure does explain a whole helluva lot. And IF Damon also, well, I hate to see that, cuz I really like the guy and hope(d) he's a Cub next year.

Again, I wouldn't be surprised to find out Clemens did steroids. Okay, wait. I would be SHOCKED to find out Clemens did steroids but it would explain a whole helluva lot.

But Damon, I just don't know. Check out this story from the Boston Herald about Damon getting steroid tested and commenting on the Palmeiro busting. He would have to be the biggest moron/asshole/egomaniac in the world to have said those things and be using steroids himself.

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg...

wow.

okay, why do you guys hate clemens so much?

i dont wanna go on and on about how happy i am to actually see a guy like clemens pitch in my era from childhood to adulthood, but wow...i didnt know he was so hated outside of the northeast for various team-allegence reasons.

as far as i can tell this is a guy who's played the game right almost his entire career and helped others realize their own tallents and shortcomings.

Yeah... you take out the 8 8 and 6 game losing streaks and go .500 and you're left with 11 more wins. Big difference and wild card leader.

Palmeiro has some story behind it all.....can't wait to hear it.

Apparently he's waiting until Congress is done reviewing his documents.

1st. I did not see that article about Randy Moss. What I was saying is that the NBA is filled with pot smokers. I don't even think they test for it. They went NUTS when the NBA added pot to the banned substances list. That league is all pot smoking thugs.

2. Yeah, why does everybody hate Clemens? The guy is one of my favorite players of all time.

Yeah... you take out the 8 8 and 6 game losing streaks and go .500 and you're left with 11 more wins. Big difference and wild card leader.

unfortunately this team is what it is...a .500 team.... No they don't win a game lose a game all the time...but rarely do the .500 teams...

Mostly they have 5 game win streaks and 5 game losing streaks. They aren't good enough to avoid the 5 game losing streaks (or 8) and they aren't bad enough to avoid the 5 (or 8) game winning streaks. .500 teams tend to be streaky in both directions. They aren't consistent...(consistent would be losing a game winning a game losing a game winning a game)...they are at times one of the best looking teams in the game...and at other times the worst team in baseball....

Can play the what if game all we want...but it is what it is.

Jackiet:

MLB and the union issued a statement a week ago about steriods. Here is a ESPN article on it: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2...

On Neyer he said there was talk of it at ESPN. Being a Comm major if there was a rumor about Clemens or any player of that ilk being busted for roids going around a news room that I worked at I would be on the phone to MLB offices wanting conformation or denial. I know there are a bunch of idiots at ESPN but someone must have had enough sense to do that. If they said no I am sure they would have Gammons on to refute it. Maybe they got a no comment and don't want to be the 1st in the MSM to break it if it is bogus. I think it is a 60/40 chance its true.

I don't know Clemens, obviously. I dislike him because he plays for Houston. That's natural as a Cubs fan. I also dislike him because in all the clips, interviews, footage I have seen, he comes off as a jerk; but not in the way Bonds does. Didn't he get kicked out of his kid's little league game after spitting sunflower seeds at the ump? Classy. Clemens doesn't seem to try to hide it.

Another thing: I'm not a big fan of Canseco, but if this rumor is made fact, score another for Jose.

I dont understand the Clemens hate either. One of the greatest pitchers of our time.

And if nothing new develops perform midnight, just chalk up this rumor with the hundreds of others who had "inside" information and it turned out bogus.

I guess we shall see before midnight 433 whether you source is real or fake.

Why would you say midnight? It took two months for Raffie's suspension to start after his positive test. If it's well known enough for rumors to abound, then it's probably in the last week or two of processing, but there's no reason to think it's coming down today.

k...no player tests have been done in a while and any positives are subject to appeal in private...so any "positives" that are now known had to have been in the system for a while.

mlb released a statement not too long ago along with the player's "union" that stated there's no one of any major status caught up in that.

the only guy busted since then that i can think of is wilson delgado (yes, for the 2nd time this year)...

it would be a HORRIBLE image and PR issue if anyone of any status was named as guilty between now and the end of the season.

From what I heard about Clemens ejection was that the ump was the real asshole and if I remember, Clemens got kicked out while he was in his car.

if you really want a reason to hate Clemens, check out these ridiculous photos

http://i.cnn.net/si/pr/subs/swimsuit/images/0...

http://www.debbieclemens.com/images/dc_pink1.jpg

and why midnight? I read that the suspension would be coming down in a day or two. I don't really believe it either, but obviously a buzz is going around if it got to ESPN.

Chifan3887, I stand corrected. Interesting--both that MLB would decide to issue a statement denying rumors and that the leauge and union actually agreed on something.

I still don't think what Neyer did was wrong, but your triangulation between his response, ESPN, and some fact-checking is plausable.

Here's the story on Clemens ejection:

http://talk.livedaily.com/archive/index.php/t...

essentially the article says that clemens didn't say a word, the ump says he spit a sunflower seed on him. Most everyone that was there agrees with Clemens and thought the ump was being all high and mighty....

Rob --

While I understand your concern and agree that MLB must post a list of banned substances, it's ultimately the players' responsibility not to break the rules. In the U.S. ignorance of a law is not a valid defense. For instance, in Illinois it's illegal to drive without headlights on during a rainstorm. Just because I'm not aware of that law doesn't mean I won't get a ticket if I break it.

Players should know what is in the supplements they're taking, and they should check to make sure all the ingredients are legal. If they ask for a list of banned substances, I'm sure they can get one from Bud's office. If they haven't cleared all the ingredients, they have no business taking the supplement, bottom line. Too much work? Too bad. Do it anyway, or don't take supplements. It's too damn easy to make an excuse.

"I still don't think what Neyer did was wrong, but your triangulation between his response, ESPN, and some fact-checking is plausable"

I agree with you that Neyer did nothing wrong. but sometimes unfortunetly people are fired to keep people happy. That is where I was coming from.

Rob --

While I understand your concern and agree that MLB must post a list of banned substances, it's ultimately the players' responsibility not to break the rules. In the U.S. ignorance of a law is not a valid defense. For instance, in Illinois it's illegal to drive without headlights on during a rainstorm. Just because I'm not aware of that law doesn't mean I won't get a ticket if I break it.

Players should know what is in the supplements they're taking, and they should check to make sure all the ingredients are legal. If they ask for a list of banned substances, I'm sure they can get one from Bud's office. If they haven't cleared all the ingredients, they have no business taking the supplement, bottom line. Too much work? Too bad. Do it anyway, or don't take supplements. It's too damn easy to make an excuse.

Rob --

While I understand your concern and agree that MLB must post a list of banned substances, it's ultimately the players' responsibility not to break the rules. In the U.S. ignorance of a law is not a valid defense. For instance, in Illinois it's illegal to drive without headlights on during a rainstorm. Just because I'm not aware of that law doesn't mean I won't get a ticket if I break it.

Players should know what is in the supplements they're taking, and they should check to make sure all the ingredients are legal. If they ask for a list of banned substances, I'm sure they can get one from Bud's office. If they haven't cleared all the ingredients, they have no business taking the supplement, bottom line. Too much work? Too bad. Do it anyway, or don't take supplements. It's too damn easy to make an excuse.

sorry about the triple post

433,

What was the time differential between your source telling you of the Palmerio thing and it going down?

I agree that it's wrong and they should be punished....I think I said that...a number of times. It's the magnitude of the punishment that I was arguing.

I just don't think the way it is being implemented or enforced, completely rules out a margin of error, thus if a guy tests postitve ONCE, I don't think he should be banned for a substantial amount of games. I think it should be maybe 11 GAMES, thus a pitcher would be guaranteed to miss 2 starts. I mean they could tinker the rotation so he could come back the day his suspension was over, but ultimately you'd end up messing with the team in some way, either by his missed games or having to throw the rotation out of the loop.

I know 2 games doesn't sound like much but it's actually about the same percentage of missed games if you're comparing a starting pitcher and a positional player.

11/162 = 6.8%
2/33 = 6%

That's 33 starts for a pitcher, some get 34 so the impact would be a little less.

k...no player tests have been done in a while and any positives are subject to appeal in private...so any "positives" that are now known had to have been in the system for a

You have a source on that crunch about no player tests being done for awhile? The policy states they can be done at any time from what I remember.

That being said, after reading that MLB denial that was posted in #141, I completely think this is B.S, unless they did just run a new series of tests. And if they did, it'll be awhile before we hear anything as it took something like 2 months before Palmeiro tested postive, went through appeals and finally served his suspension.

and now I see why mikec said midnight. Someone HAS to ask Clemens tonight about it and if he says that it's a joke and baseless, then I'm going to have to go with him on that. Cause if it does come out in 2 months that he did get busted, he'd look pretty stupid. If he goes with the standard, "No comment", or something equally ambigous we may have something.....

I have an idea, get the MLB seal of approval on your supplements. Serious here. The MLB should set up their own "FDA" and companies can have their supplements tested by the MLB. If the MLB thinks the product is OK, they can add it to their "Approved Supplements" list.

Rob -- I hear that, and I do understand the room for error in testing. But I think the "error" cited in 99 percent of the cases is going to have to do with players either not knowing what they're taking, or finding out too late that their legal supplement actually contains a banned substance. If the player was taking zero supplements, he wouldn't have to worry about false positives. He took the chance by swallowing supplement X, so if it turns out supplement X contains substance Z, which is illegal, that's his fault and he should be punished in such a way as to send a message to other potential cheaters. If all supplements have to be eliminated to clean up the game, so be it.

The reason I called for 81 games, two years, and life for each successive failed test is that I think it would force players to consider ceasing with the legal supplements too (which, by the way, are not all FDA approved, even). Nobody ever tested positive for a banned substance because they ate apples and lima beans, I don't think. MLB needs to take a hard-line stance and say players are responsible for the results of their tests, no matter how a substance came to be found in their system.

i have no source, there just hasnt been any of the usual noise associated with random testing. there may have been tests, but the complaints/posturing hasnt been there.

i have no source, there just hasnt been any of the usual noise associated with random testing. there may have been tests, but the complaints/posturing hasnt been there.

What are you, the NSA?.......usual noise.....

hehe :)

hehe...its just every time there's a round of testing that isnt player specific there's usually some mention that someone pissed in a cup for the man...havent heard any of that in a while except for minor leaguers complaining about the frequency.

it really seems theyre trying to root it outta the minors and put the fear of God in the next generation of players rather than aggresively going after the guys in the bigs, honestly.

no steroid chatter? LOL

Well I think we pretty much agree except that 81 games is just too harsh if some guys personal trainer he had for 10 years forgot to dutifully double-check the supplement ingredients and the banned substance list, especially when the half the time the supplements don't readily make their ingredients available. Yeah I suppose they should just stop taking them altogether, but some stuff can be found in cold medicine, right?

And I'm with you Chad, the NFL already does it, an approved supplement list, you then have pretty much no excuse and then the penalty for a first time should be stiffer. I'd go with 40 games myself (25% of the season), that's pretty substantial.

a year on the second.....

2 years on the third...

banned for life on the fourth....

from what I read on the steroid policy there is only one round on non-player specific testing done per year. Unannounced. BUT, they can do as much random testing on any player as they wish...

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/article...

Under the new deal, each player will be subject to at least one unannounced, in-season test on a randomly chosen day. In addition, the league is free to further test randomly chosen players. There is no set limit on the number of tests any one player may be forced to take. Furthermore, random testing will be done during the offseason for the first time.

So maybe someone ratted out Clemens and they went after him, how funny would that be?

Rob -- I could go with 40 games. It just has to be something that truly hurts not only the player, but the team he plays for. This is actually a classroom theory for teachers. If you make a problem child accountable to his peers, he's much more likely to behave. If the slugging outfielder knows he's going to let down his team and miss a quarter of the season, he's more likely to behave.

Also, does anybody know what how the steroid policy lines up with the policy on, say, narcotics? Are recreational drugs a stiffer or less stiff penalty? And further, how often do these tests happen? I've heard enough stories from ballplayer friends to know recreational drug use in the bigs is far from nonexistant.

40 games 1 year THEn life sounds good to me. Your out on the 3rd strike not the 4th.

"recreational drug use in the bigs is far from nonexistant"

understatement of the year. heheh...

seriously, you'd think some of these guys were in reggae bands not baseball players hehe...

1st offense-- 10 game suspension and a fine equal to 10% of all future baseball earnings as an active major league baseball player.

2nd offense-- 20 game suspension and a fine equal to 33% of all future baseball earnings as an active major league baseball player.

3rd offense-- lifetime ban from Major League Baseball...loss of MLB pension....Loss of any recognition by MLB Hall of Fame.

if you type 'MLB Drug Policy" in google, the third hit gives you a PDF file and it says:

Drugs:
Cocaine
LSD
Marijuana
Opiates (Heroin, codeine, Morphine)
MDMA (ecstasy)
GHB
PCP
Ephedra

It also lists all 45 anabolic steroids that are banned.

It actually states that "Drugs of Abuse" (the first list) can only be tested if there is reasonable cause for it and there's a whole process of what constitutes reasonable cause.

HAH!!! No more steroids, but welcome back COKE!!

The policy even gives an outline of the "collection procedure" for a urine sample. Some dude has to watch you take a piss into a cup. I mean physically see the piss hit the cup. What are the job qualifications for that? Where can I get an application?

"Again, I wouldn't be surprised to find out Clemens did steroids. Okay, wait. I would be SHOCKED to find out Clemens did steroids but it would explain a whole helluva lot."

"why do you guys hate clemens so much?"

I certainly didn't want to imply that I would like to see Clemens busted for steroids because I don't like him. The "whole helluva lot" that in my mind would be explained is how he would be able to dominate so many for so long and stay so injury free. If his dominance and age begs the question, "How is he doing this at age 43 after 20+ years?", a steroids conviction would certainly beg the answer "Because he's been on 'roids for the whole time."

With that said, I certainly don't like Clemens. The guy is an 1) asshole who's 2) arrogant as hell not to mention being 3) an utter moron to boot. The guy's a hell of a pitcher (steroids are irrelevant here) and maybe the best right-hander of all time (steroids NOT irrelevant here) but I won't lose any sleep if these rumors turn out to be true.

speaking of coke...anyone remember josh hamilton?

he's back in NC for a while now to escape his demons in florida...and all he's managing to do is still party his ass off, get arrested, and upset his wife.

to see this guy go from golden wonderboy to wasted tatoo freak really sucked.

he's pretty much just a stupid redneck at this point and i dunno if he'll ever play again.

That's the issue ten years from now. They'll put a band-aid over the steriod thing, and then a bunch of ball players will get caught with coke and everyone will say how that needs to be addressed. With a little foresight, the game could really be cleaned up.

When I say caught, I mean like police busted, Michael Irvin style. Not tested. God knows there's no reason for baseball to do that. A bunch of filthy rich young men running around in the biggest cities in the US -- but of course, none of them are doing drugs.

personally, im shocked no one's been busted with the green besides the younger giambi in recent times.

a LOT of players smoke...both for recreation and cuz its a non-addictive way to deal with stress/pain without turning into an alcoholic or pill head.

lotta people would be suprised how many recreational smokers there are out there, from the newschool outspoken kids to the older redneck vets...

even daryll kile had a bit of smoke in his shaving kit when he was found dead...god, that sucked. his curve was amazing. matt morris owes a lot to DK.

btw, no im not gonna name a single name.

Since when is Mark Prior an average pitcher. A couple non-spectacular starts and you write him off!

In his 10 starts since coming off the DL he has allowed 3 ER in 8 of those starts and has an ERA of 4.42. His Ks are down, his walks are up and his HR allowed are up. I am convinced he's not fully recovered from the injury. I am not saying he is an average pitcher, say next season. But we shouldn't expect him to be Mark Prior the Ace the last 7 weeks of the season. That was my point.

okay, why do you guys hate clemens so much?

I've played against Koby a lot and I know Roger's a total jerk. He is so arrogant around everyone he talks to. He's also known to be a total jerk to opposing managers and the umpires at his kids games.

marquis (stl) is 2 for 2 as of writing this...

66ab 25h...wow...that's a .379 avg.

how about making marquis the OF and making ankiel pitch again...heh

ankiel's hitting AA after a slow few weeks at least...

Here is an AP story about Selig and roids maybe it's a preemptive response for things that might happen in the days to come. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050818/ap_on_sp_...

So lemme get this straight Rob, you actually want to look a men's penises all day long while they pee? Hey, you said it.

yeah, cause the sarcasm wasn't obvious on that one, right?

You are invited to visit some information about top starting hands texas holdem top starting hands texas holdem http://www.cameralover.net/texas-holdem.html http://www.cameralover.net/texas-holdem.html .

You are invited to visit some information about top starting hands texas holdem top starting hands texas holdem http://www.cameralover.net/texas-holdem.html http://www.cameralover.net/texas-holdem.html .

In your free time, check some information on texas holdem tip texas holdem tip http://www.bayfronthomes.net/texas-holdem.html http://www.bayfronthomes.net/texas-holdem.html ... Thanks!!!

X
  • Sign in with Twitter