If You Have Nothing Nice to Say….

GAME 138 IN-GAME DISCUSSION THREAD [PARACHAT] CHICAGO CUBS (66-71) @ ST LOUIS CARDINALS (88-50) BUSCH STADIUM, 7:10 pm CDT, TV: WGN, FSMW
Matt Morris, RHP
14-6, 3.91 ERA
101/27 K/BB, 15 HR in 161.0 IP
Glendon Rusch, LHP
5-8, 4.83 ERA
92/47 K/BB, 11 HR in 113.2 IP
LF Jerry Hairston Jr SS David Eckstein
SS #Neifi Perez CF *Jim Edmonds
1B Derrek Lee 1B Albert Pujols
RF *Jeromy Burnitz C Yadier Molina
3B Nomar Garciaparra 2B Mark Grudzielanek
2B *Todd Walker LF So Taguchi
C Michael Barrett 3B *Abraham Nunez
CF *Corey Patterson RF Hector Luna
P *Glendon Rusch P Matt Morris
What's the point of this lineup? Whatever... If you haven't heard, Pirates manager Lloyd McClendon was fired today. Any chance we could get a managerial platoon of Lloyd and Dwigh Smith? That worked well in 1989, at least the left-field version.
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Comments

Good thing we are getting a chance to see how those young guys play!

But hey...Korey is playing well, right. He gives us our best chance to win!

Gotta let Murton and Cedeno learn from watching C-Pat and Neifi...they's the best you know

Can anyone who's keeping count post how many games Murton & Cedeno have played vs. how many games they've been back up?

If Morris plunks Walker in response for his comments about their annocers then I want Novoa brought in the game late to KO Edmounds.

Patterson has hit 4 home runs off of Morris. I have no idea why Neifi is batting second and Walker is 6th and for that matter Barrett 7th.

Big John:

Including today's game, Cedeno has started 5 of 11 games since being called up. He was also used once as a pinch runner.

Murton has started 2 of 7 games, and was used as a pinch hitter twice.

Doesn't this lineup border on a fireable offense? Why doesn't he just take a full page ad in the trib with a middle finger in it.

This is why I have little hope for this team in the next couple years. In theory they should be competitors if the pitching rebounds (after all it's what they are built on), but that's a big if because:

1) Prior - um when did he become average? No injury and yet...
2) Z - Stud.
3) Wood - Awesome, or awful, but hey his arm fell off so who cares.
4) Maddux - old.
5) Whatever...

So there you have it. One stud, one good pitcher who hasn't been great for 2 years, one injury prone pitcher with more injury marred seasons than good ones, one fading former all star, and a fifth starter of whatever....

That's average. Not great - average. And it's what this team is built around. The only way for the cubs to get better is to start to believe in their farm system (You have to fill holes from within) but Dusty refuses to play them.

I realize this isn't all that coherent. I'm just disgusted. We had a window to be special, it started in 2003 and should have kept us a contender for years to come, and we pissed it away.

Look for that 100 year anniversary to come....

koronka and soto brought up...

and wood's rehab began today.

Did Hector Luna come up with the Cubs or something?

Why was Koronka brought up again? He sucks and it just cost us 50,000 dollars to do that. Its not like he is a LOOGY.

So do the Cardinals players just roast Flores for giving up a homer to Korey, is it worse than giving up a homer to the opposing pitcher?

I would imagine they're too busy worrying about being roasted for their poor offense against Rusch.

I'm sorry, but is Glendon Rusch throwing 6 innings thus far of perfect baseball?

Do you think...?

Naaaaah.

Did Korey get the Kelly Leak order(original Bad News Bears) from Baker? That was comical....

In fact, forget I said anything. Let's never speak of it again.

What worse for STL giving up a homer to Cpat or not getting on base due to contact through 6 on Rusch?

Oh Bonk, are you new to baseball? NEVER MENTION A NO-HITTER!!!! :)

Notice how Cub Blue tip-toed around the issue in his comment...

"Why was Koronka brought up again? He sucks and it just cost us 50,000 dollars to do that. Its not like he is a LOOGY."

you find it weirder kor was brought up over soto?

soto will be lucky to see more than a few at bats as it is...hell, he'll be lucky to see more than a few at bats in 06 unless someone gets injured.

decent kid...needs to develop power, though.

cant hurt to be around barrett/blanco.

Somewhat unrelated: is there any reason Nomar couldn't play second base, and Cedeno SS, next year? Everyone is talking LF, but wouldn't it be a less severe shift to 2B?

Are all thirteen of KPat's homers solo jobs? I hope so. Hitting fifteen or sixteen solo homers in one season might be the only remarkable thing he does in his career.

Well, but, as long as I don't call up Glen, right? Like, get the dugout number and ask him how he feels, whether he thinks he can keep the no-no going.

If he loses it right now, first batter of the 7th inning, I'll take the blame.

BOO BONK!!!!!!!!

OH FOR GOD'S SAKE

it's basically customary to call-up a 3rd catcher when rosters expand..

Terrific...

Well, at least he could still face the minimum.

Uhhh.....never mind.

That must suck to lose a perfect game on a dribbler like that. Soto was brought up because they always bring up an xtra catcher in Semptember. Remember last year it was Difelice and in 03 if memory serves it was Josh Paul.
Bonk watch nomar throw next time the ball is hit to him and that is why he can't play 2b.

See, now you can't blame me for the walk *COUGH* (D-Lee's Son)*COUGH*.

ChiFan, care to be a bit more specific? I don't get WGN, and follow the games probably 25% on the radio and 75% MLB Gameday or box scores.

Bonk,

He throws so side armed and puts all of his body in the throw that Dlee would need the wingspan of a 7 footer to catch it. Maybe he can work on it. Any way him and Walker are so close that i don't think he would want to take his job.

about soto...he's a kid, not the throwaway, and the cubs arent in contention and they have the catching battery signed through 06.

not that i disagree, but he's up to watch/learn/talk and have the coaches get a look. i wouldnt start crying if he dont get 120 ab's...hell, i'd be suprised if he gets 20.

not every team brings up a 3rd catcher, especially if they got no offseason plans.

Idiot should have pulled Rusch after he got hit in the foot. Hope we don't blow it.

"...not every team brings up a 3rd catcher, especially if they got no offseason plans." - Crunch

No offseason plans? What, my friend, do you call the Cubs Disney cruise and the fan convention?

Nothing like pumping up a catcher with a CS when he's coming up to bat in the next inning.

CUBS WIN!!! IN DUSTY WE TRUSTY!!

another 3-4 ABs that Cedeno and Murton will never get back...

thanks, dusty

cedeno's been working hard the past few days taking grounders at 2nd for hours.

imagine that...baseball is more than playing the game itself. who knew?

he's being groomed for his 06 role...sorry, but it just doesnt look like he's gonna be the club's everyday SS at this point. besides, i think a lot of you would be very dissapointed if he was once the novelty of him being a rookie wore off.

he'll get his play time...in fact we should see him playing 2nd before the year is out. imagine that.

Crunch,

Nobody said the only way to improve is playing, but it is the best way. Cedeno is atleast a fundamentally sound player. Baker is full of it for saying he missed a sign. He made the right adjustment I mean a sac bunt is better than a DP in that sitution.

imagine that...baseball is more than playing the game itself. who knew?

This is really wearing thin.

We get it. Prospects need to get used to being the low men on the totem pole, to get adjusted to a different method of travel which occurs more frequently, and, like you point out, to work on all kinds of aspects of their game in the tunnels and workouts that we don't see. Not everything happens in the box score. I doubt you'll get any serious argument from this board about that.

Unfortunately, what happens in the box score is important and useful. What prospects do not need, and what cannot possibly be beneficial to their development, is 40 PAs in 50 days like occured earlier, or playing every other day when 3 out of 4 isn't going to hurt anything. There are some things that you don't learn, and that the team and the pencil-necked armchair GM jockeys don't learn about you, if you're sitting on the bench the whole damn time.

The season has been over for weeks. I'm going to be more disappointed if we get treated to the same Old Stiffs extravaganza every day because Dusty can't see to next week, let alone next year.

what im SAYING...what im trying to say...whatever etc...

cedeno IS getting work...cedeno IS working on a new possition to compliment the team's needs next year and perhaps beyond if he doesnt fill out better...cedeno is NOT ALL THAT.

cedeno is a contact hitting, no walking, no King, no power having glove man.

the work he's done pre-game the past 2 games are WAY more important than any games he's played all season for this club as far as his development. those who have been crying about how the cubs should give up should be happy cedeno, a natural SS, is even being given the chance to expand his game in this way in order for him to add another level of usefulness to him and this club.

people are getting bent outta shape about a kid who's a role player.

this is RONNY CEDENO we're talking about here...a little guy with a good glove who can make contact without K'ing 120+ times a season.

cedeno's been toying with 2nd a while...the past 2-3 days he's been getting intensive work there.

this will pay off for him soon with some shots at 2nd.

unless youre one of the ones who believe cedeno is our 06 starter, you're gonna see a guy expand his game.

what is so bad about this? this opens up a chance for him in 06 to more fully round out this club and his options in a year that MATTERS.

cedeno's been working hard the past few days taking grounders at 2nd for hours.

Why doesn't he just watch Walker take grounders?

btw...people who wanna interpret what i say really need to start taking what i say at face value...not some kinda veiled pro-dusty agenda.

not everything is a conspiracy.

just cuz i could care less if neifi or cedeno is playing doesnt mean that i'm towing the company line...it has a lot more to do with the fact that i see them as similar players, i see the club is still trying to figure out if they want neifi around next year, and the only connection i see with dusty/neifi is the fact he's hitting like .300/.350 avg/ob% since mid-july. not to mention cedeno is most likely not gonna be a starter in 06 and he's got 5+ years of club control left on him.

by the way...whoever it was that said the Cubs will not win 65 games? You were wrong. Too bad I couldn't get that person to bet on it!

Just happened to be watching the SF/LAD game and it was de ja vue. Hawkins blows the lead....

Thanks SF for taking that head case...

its a good game, too...been watching it since the cubs game ended.

vin's calling yet another good game...get your vin fix, people...he's not gonna be around forever.

Atlanta CLOSER Kyle Farnsworth struck out two pitching a scoreless ninth and recorded his 11th Save tonight. Along the way he dropped his ERA below 2.00

Thanks Detroit and playoffs-bound Atlanta for taking that "head case"

....

Andy Sisco (2.54 ERA) pitched another scoreless 8th inning of relief tonight.

Thanks KC for taking that "head case."

What does working on his defense at 2nd base have to do with getting Cedeno AB's? It doesn't have a damn thing to do with anything crunch, so please stop using that pathetic excuse.

Cedeno can easily start at SS everyday and work on his 2nd base skills, the same way he does as he rides the bench. The most important thing for Cedeno is his hitting ability and getting game experience for it.

What does Cedeno and Murton have to do to get the rest of the starting jobs for the rest of the season on a sub .500 team? A craptastic Neifi Perez and a guy who can't even play the OF are the only things that stand in the way. It isn't like they got all-stars and Hall of Famers they are trying to beat out for a position. Jesus, Murton is probably going, "I hate this manager, I hit a HR on Sunday and I haven't played since. How the hell am I supposed to find my stroke watching?"

You can defend it all you want Crunch, but everyone else knows its bullshit, its stupid, and this organization is a complete failure. They took 1 little bright spot in Cubs history, and did everything in their power to screw it up. Hired the wrong manager, signed the wrong players, didn't go after free agents, and let players go without replacing them. What more can one organization do in 2 years to dismantle a team? It is sad and pisses me off as a Cubs fan.

And don't get me started with the return of Neifi Perez to the #2 hole. Seriously you have to be a brain dead major league manager to ever bat Neifi Perez #2 when you have options such as Todd Walker and Nomar Garciaparra batting 5th and 6th. Todd Walker is the prototypical #2 hitter, but not on Dusty's team. He can't even understand the basics of lineup construction.

"What does working on his defense at 2nd base have to do with getting Cedeno AB's? It doesn't have a damn thing to do with anything crunch, so please stop using that pathetic excuse."

it gives him more places to be plugged into a lineup since its doubtful he's gonna be a starter in 06.

i explained that. and that's not pathetic, that's how it works when youre not a starter...versitility gives you a better chance to play.

"You can defend it all you want Crunch, but everyone else knows its bullshit, its stupid, and this organization is a complete failure."

what is this magical "it" that i seem to be trying to fool the world with?

....look, i already said if you think cedeno is a starter everything i said is moot.

AND WHAT PART OF *ME* AND OTHERS THINKING CEDENO IS JUST ANOTHER CONTACT HITTING, NO WALK, NO K, LITTLE GLOVE MAN ISNT GETTING THROUGH...MAYBE SOME MORE CAPS WILL HELP.

ive already been called stupid and other treats by you over dubois, mike. you shot pure venom at me over it ignoring what the man does and just riding some numbers or some hope or whatever it is that creates so much furor over so little.

...and about all the dusty crap you talked about...lemmie say this again...in caps...DONT TAKE THINGS I SAY AND TURN IT INTO A DAMN CONSPIRACY. TAKE THE THINGS I SAY AT FACE VALUE. I NOT ONLY TALKED ABOUT CEDENO, BUT I TOUCHED ON *WHY*...NOT JUST "CUZ I WANT TO" OR "CUZ I GOT A GUT FEELING"

ya know, guys like cedeno dont grow on trees...even "if he is just a neifi" this club has a backup SS who can really add some cheap options to this club for a minimum of 3 more years.

that is something that dont grow on trees...this is a GOOD thing.

at best he can add some power and maybe some plate patience to his game.

but hey, im not about to pretend cedeno's gonna turn into f'n superman with 100 ab's this month or suddenly figure out more about his game in 3-4ab's a day vs. the training he's getting before/after games. that's just unreasonable to even fathom where i come from.

Crunch, its been September for almost a week now. When are we going to start seeing this "more playing time" for the rookies you keep promising?

Through the first 5 games of Sept:
Cedeno 2 Games, 6 ABs: On pace for 32 ABs in Sept
Murton 2 Games, 6 ABs: On pace for 32 ABs in Sept

Neifi "Not going to play everyday" Perez:
5 games, 16 ABs, On pace to play in all 27 games this month.

Still think Dusty's suddenly going to change his behavior and give the kids 80 ABs each this month?

By completing the sweep of Pittsburgh, and by taking
at least one game in this series with St. Louis, the Cubs remain on the probable course I outlined a couple days ago that will result in an 82-80 record.

Obviously, if they win 2 out of three they move to a projected 83-79.

So why mention it?

Well, based on the remaining schedules and present winning percentages, the wildcard is projecting to be taken by a team amassing only 85-87 victories. And this could stabilize around 85 if the Cubs can dominate Houston, and Florida continues to have trouble in their own division.

"Crunch, its been September for almost a week now. When are we going to start seeing this "more playing time" for the rookies you keep promising?"

i promised what? huh?

look, according to you, you should be suprised they have 1ab. stick to the gloom/doom, it suits you over remembering what i said about what.

i said it wouldnt suprise me to see cedeno/murton get 80-ish ab's and that's about all i expect.

i said it wouldnt suprise me to see cedeno/murton get 80-ish ab's and that's about all i expect.

i said it wouldnt suprise me to see cedeno/murton get 80-ish ab's and that's about all i expect.

i said it wouldnt suprise me to see cedeno/murton get 80-ish ab's and that's about all i expect.

there, i wrote it 4 times...maybe you can read it this time...ive already used by caps-lock alotment for the night.

i dont run this team in case you didnt know.

now...like i said...come at me with this in october cuz there's still 4-ish weeks of baseball left to play.

i guess before you write a scathing blab about some technical crap about the 2 games in october, blue, i should say wait 22 more games before you wanna go on about this crap.

do you really believe theyre gonna get 32 ab's? is that your point?

actually, i do know what your point is...its your motivation behind it that irks me, honestly.

fun project.

ive been pretty clear about what i see in cedeno and murton.

how about YOU GUYS tell me what you see in them.

especially you blue, im yet to see even anything remotely resembling a player breakdown from you...just you calling people who disagree with you crazy and the constant bashing of a manager.

blue, the only opinion ive seen you back up reguarding a player is you want rookies to play cuz theyre rookies and you wanna see what they can do or some other similar thing that would make you think a scout's job starts and ends at the highschool/college level.

btw...the first person to compare cedeno to omar v. wins a shiny new adam dunn that laughs when you pokes its belly.

"we know what neifi/corey/hairston/etc. can do" is a weak answer...better go ahead and nix that one before the easy way out goes.

im seriously asking you guys what you see in cedeno/murton that me and others are missing.

especially cedeno...who, oddly, will probally get more playing time than murton with burnitz hogging RF and his inability to play CF.

Talking to yourself again, Crunch?

Regarding Cedeno taking grounders at second, there's not a clearer sign either that Cedeno's being groomed to be a utility infielder next year or that the Cubs are extremely stupidly planning on doing something with Todd Walker. I'm pretty sure it's the former, and though that's the better of these two explanations, I'm not happy about it. I am just not a believer in breaking in young players via the bench and the sporadic playing time that that means, it's as simple as that. I do not believe that you learn as much or improve as quickly by watching as you do simply playing the game day in and day out and getting the reps in, and I do not believe that the lack of faith that is at the very least implied is particularly good for a young player either. Besides raw ability, obviously, there is nothing better for a player than an unflappable self-belief, and it's partially the job of the manager to ensure that's engendered, nurtured and protected. I do not see how saying "I would rather have Jose Macias hit with the bases loaded in the ninth inning than you" achieves that.

always talking to myself...

1- i got blue making crap up and then talking smack about the crap he makes up.

----

call me an optimist, but yeah...i believe the sun will come up tommorow...

and yeah...i believe murton/cedeno will get 80-ish+ ab's each this month.

and no...i dont believe neifi will play everyday.

and i see no reason to think any of this wont be true.
Posted by: crunch at September 3, 2005 03:01 PM

----

that got turned into me promising him things and evidently 3 days is all it should take for me to backtrack from my views. what's said in that post is not what he attributed to my name...

2- i got more venom from mikec, which at least was a legit view and i got no problem with what he said...but im not gonna have my views trashed dubois-style without defending them.

i dont like what mikec said, but what blue said was out of line totally...those 2 reponses shouldnt be taken on the same level..

about cedeno's makeup...

he's been progressed through the system so quickly because of his maturity. he's open to taking work at 2nd because of his maturity. he's played with guys older than him at every level he's touched.

he knows the score...as early as last season cedeno was being talked about as the utility IF of the future for the cubs.

but seriously...this is a guy who struggles to hit a ball more than 250ft. and is more glove than bat. he's got a flat as hell swing and makes good contact...that sounds very familiar to a guy already on this club.

given the fact cedeno probally isnt in the club's plan to start in 06 *i* see no reason to even care if he's on the field or not, much less getting playing time of significant nature.

on murton...*i* would like to see him have more playing time...i have no idea what the clubs plans even remotely involve for that OF, but burn is probally in RF for the duration aside from very occasional rest and i have no idea where this patterson/hairston is going.

----

and about me asking for what people see in cedeno/murton...i really wanna know what people see in them...as players...their tools, their approach...their +/-...not just "well, he's not blah blah etc."

i seriously wanna know what is so special about cedeno especially given what we know about him.

a side note for people that might find all this crap a bit too heavy...why scouts rule in 1 quote...

Reliever: Fernando Cabrera, rhp, Buffalo (Indians)

"He's just all arms and legs out there. When he unwinds, he looks like an octopus falling out of a tree."--a scout describing Cabrera's delivery.

ah...baseball. something so stupid sounding, yet makes so much sense...

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/minors/0...

You want to know what I see in Ronny Cedeno? I see a guy with a nice smooth and controlled swing that makes consistent contact, and pretty good contact too. Certainly, he doesn't really let rip when he swings, he doesn't absolutely turn on the ball, but neither does he slap at it. Instead, I'd say he strokes it, and to all fields too. That, in the long run, should lend itself to him hitting for a high average, with a decent number of doubles and just the occasional home run, though if he fills out a lot he could crack double figures in home runs (heís actually got 9 this year, but thatís a bit fluky I think). Though it doesn't show up entirely in his walk totals, he also recognises a ball from a strike, and it's not too often that he's cheated swinging at something that he shouldn't. Furthermore, he plays generally excellent defence - he's got extremely good range and hands, and his arm isn't spectacular but it's comfortably good enough, and he has all the instincts. He's also a very effective baserunner.

The results right now are similar to Neifi's, but his methods are very different. Neifi really slaps at the ball, heís like a beginner golfer in that sense, it just looks ugly. Heís extremely impatient and doesnít have much of an idea of the strikezone, and heís a pretty dodgy baserunner. The only thing that Neifi has over Cedeno right now is that he plays better defence, though that of course is not a knock on Cedeno, and that heís experienced, he knows how the big leagues work and is clever enough to exploit that from time to time. Cedeno at some stage is going to need to acclimatise himself to the big leagues, to accumulate the experience and the know-how that Neifi right now has over him. He needs to get used to his new teammates and his new manager, get used to his new hitting coach, get used to Wrigley, get used to the area, get used to the fans, get used to the day games, get used to the traveling, get used to major league pitching, what they throw, where they throw it, when they throw it, how good they are at executing, get used to how they're going to come try and get him out here, and then get used to making the necessary adjustments, get used to playing the field here, get used to playing alongside the rest of the infield, get used to the "speed" of the major leagues, get used to the pressure, get used to absolutely everything that makes the majors so different and so much harder to crack than the minor leagues. Some of that can be achieved off the field, but a lot can only be achieved by going out there and playing. At some stage the Cubs are going to have to let Cedeno learn to play everyday in the big leagues, because I believe that Cedeno has the ability to play everyday in the big leagues.

And I think this year theyíve had the perfect opportunity, and theyíve let it pass. On June 28, Cedeno was possibly as ready as heíd ever be with all the confidence from his Triple-A hitting under his wings, and with the Cubs pretty much out of contention, Neifi not hitting a lick and Nomar still a way away, the opportunity was there. That, I thought was why they called up Cedeno from Iowa on June 28. Had I been the Cubs, as I said at the time, Iíd have made the change there, instilling Cedeno as my starting shortstop at the very least until Nomar returned. Iíd also have honestly expected him to struggle horribly, and I mean horribly. Look at what JJ Hardy did in Milwaukee - through June 29, he hit just .175/.287/.253. I wouldnít be surprised if Cedeno hit something like that in his first few months, maybe worse. But, had the Cubs stuck by him, showing support for him and confidence in him, I expect that with time Cedeno would have come around. Thatís what the Brewers did, they stuck by their rookie shortstop, and since June 30 heís hit .279/.355/.422. Incidentally, change the .279 to a .289, say, and the .355 to a .345, because Hardy and Cedeno arenít really similar hitters, and I think thatís around about what Cedenoís career numbers could look like when allís said and done.

Now .289/.345/.422 isnít amazing. The fact that he could hit that doesnít make him a top prospect now and it wonít make him a Hall-of-Famer or anything later. He may not even ever make an All-Star team, and he sure as anything wonít be winning any MVP awards or anything. But when you combine that with very solid defence, it makes him a very decent player, particularly. I believe that if Cedenoís given the chance to start every single day as of now in the majors, he could be hitting somewhere near that .289/.345/.422, or whatever, something very decent, within a matter of months. So itís just a case of starting the clock. The Cubs could have done that in late-June, and they can still do it now, although, the imminent off-season interruption doesnít really help now. Theyíll be sending Cedeno to play in the Winter Leagues though, so heíll still be getting the reps in and working on his game. And thatís just the most important thing right now, in my eyes. If they let him rot on the bench, theyíll end up with a bench player, a utility infielder. I just believe that Cedeno can be better than that. He has a bat, more of a one than youíre giving him credit. You just donít hit .342/.392/.487 over 350 plate appearances aged 22 between Iowa and Chicago entirely through luck.

Octopus falling out a tree. That's superb! I can kind of see what they mean too!

Here are the numbers for the Octopus this year...

70.2 IP, 55 H, 4 HR, 19 BB, 86 K, 1.27 ERA

Mid-nineties fastball that he's controlling much better these days, filthy splitter, and a really nasty slider too. The guy's good.

John Hill,

Thanks for shutting up Crunch. Maybe now he join the rest of us in wanting Cedeno and Murton to get PT after your excellent explanation of why Cedeno needs to play.

"the pencil-necked armchair GM jockeys" - I love it when someone's insecurities about his own intellect are so clearly shown in a comment. Bravo

Crunch:

I've got to hand it to you, fellow. You've done something that I never thought I'd see done on this blog. You've made us all wish we could hear more from some of the guys you have crowded out by your incessant rants. And we all admire how one post from you suddenly becomes two or three or four in a row. You must have been a disc jockey in a former life.

Take a couple of Midol and chill out, guy.

Crunch-
Keep posting as much as you want man. That is what this site is about, to talk about the Cubs right?? If people agreed with your thoughts they wouldn't have a problem with it. If you were bashing Dusty for 12 straight posts, you would get a standing O, funny how that works, huh??

"Keep posting as much as you want man. That is what this site is about, to talk about the Cubs right?? If people agreed with your thoughts they wouldn't have a problem with it. If you were bashing Dusty for 12 straight posts, you would get a standing O, funny how that works, huh??"

Dusty lovers unite!!!

I've heard the octopus falling out of a tree line before and it was probably old then. That's the thing about baseball. Each year fans come along and everything is new again. And even if the quote had been original, I'm not sure why it should be seen as an endorsement of scouts. If funny downhome sayings were a sign of baseball acumen, then Ross Perot and Dan Rather would be running major league teams.

"You want to know what I see in Ronny Cedeno? I see a guy with a nice smooth and controlled swing that makes consistent contact, and pretty good contact too."

Do you see a guy who hit .279/.328/.401 in AA this season and a guy who averaged .212/.263/.295 in Low A and High A combined last season?

Murton is another story. He has decent, but not spectacular minor league numbers. But Ronny Cedeno is just another in a long line of Augie Ojedas.

That said, I think these guys should have been playing MONTHS AGO over stiffs like Neifi, Hollandsworth and Patterson who clearly are not part of the future. I just don't understand why everyone is so high on Cedeno in terms of starting for next year. I don't want him starting next year at all for us, at 2B, SS, LF or anywhere. If we don't go full-court, balls to the walls, 100% after Furcal, and overpay him by whatever amount he wants just make sure he is here, it will be a huge failure. We let several SS go by us last year because Hendry wanted to try and get Nomar cheap. He did - and we paid the price. Let's not make that mistake again. You can't count on getting stud players cheap. Sometimes you actually have to pay top $ to get them. With a 100mm+ payroll, we should be able to do that.

"the pencil-necked armchair GM jockeys" - I love it when someone's insecurities about his own intellect are so clearly shown in a comment. Bravo

You broke the # 1 rule of internet posting - lurk before posting. Ron Galt is not only one of the most intelligent posters here, but (and I'm guessing, here) being as sabermetrically-inclined as he is, he would probably admit to being one of those "pencil-necked armchair GM jockeys."

Oh, and in regards to the Cedeno/Murton conversation: I see "I believe" and "It wouldn't surprise me" to be two fundamentally different clauses and not at all interchangeable. Of course, both of those things are different from "I promise" as well.

"Dusty lovers unite!!!"

Funny, considering TCR might be the official Dusty hater blog of the internet.

So damn pathetic.

X-
I think playing Patterson everyday is a good idea as they need to determine if he will be a Cub next year. If he can turn things around now or in winter ball, then hecan be out CF next year. If not...BYE BYE.

Do you see a guy who hit .279/.328/.401 in AA this season and a guy who averaged .212/.263/.295 in Low A and High A combined last season?

One, you're looking at 2004 and 2003 statistics. Two, he hit .355 with a SLG of .518 in 245 AB in AAA Iowa this season (no idea on his OBP since the IA Cubs site doesn't track BB and I don't have the patience to search through boxscores at the moment) and has performed adequately at the major league level in an undoubtably miniscule sample size. Three, consider his age at each level - he's been young for every league he's visited.

No one's saying Cedeno's going to be a star, but he's got a good chance to be a solid player and he's far better than "another Augie Ojeda."

Last night was great. Something like seven games decided in the ninth or extras, a couple more one-run games... lovely. I missed Kent's HR because I was watching the end of Rockies-Padres.

I don't have much to add to the Cedeno discussion, just some short comments:

Neifi really slaps at the ball, heís like a beginner golfer in that sense... - John

Has anyone seen the ad with Snoop Dogg and Lee Iacocca? John's description leads me to believe they probably filmed that over the All-Star Break, so Neifi could coach Snoop on his "golf swing."

===

As for Crunch's questions about "what others see in them," here's what I see in them: not a damn thing, because I've rarely seen them play, seeing how they're never in the lineup when I'm in the park, and, let's face it, just about everything on MLB.TV these days is more interesting than Neifi and K-Pax.

What I'd *like* to see in them is whether or not they can be useful hole-plugger adequate-performance-at-one-position-to-dump-money-in-another-elsewhere players, so, again, we have a better idea of what we have, i.e., do we sign a big-money shortstop this offseason, or should we try to get by on the cheap? (FWIW, I think this assumes a more intricate understanding of the short- and long-term structure of the payroll than Jim Hendry actually has.)

Shortstop is the most important decision the Cubs have in the offseason, and they haven't learned a thing about one of their options.

Ron Galt is not only one of the most intelligent posters here, but (and I'm guessing, here) being as sabermetrically-inclined as he is, he would probably admit to being one of those "pencil-necked armchair GM jockeys."

Thanks for the kind words, Weeks. At 5'8" and 150, I'm guilty as self-incriminated.

Manny - Why should a few weeks of good performance from Patterson give him the starting CF job next year?

Manny,

You are an interesting poster, one who I believe sees alot of the anti Dusty Postings as part of the usual nature of fanatics letting off steam, without really digging beneath the surface.

What I will commit to doing this off season, is building a case that helps to bring Dusty Baker's ineffectiveness as a manager to the surface.

I will attempt to use facts and specific circumstances to make my points about his ineffectiveness.

Given that I adore Bill James, I freely admit that much of Dusty's ineffectiveness cannot be used as predictve evidence that he has held back this team, so in those cases, I will present the facts and let them stand by themselves.

I ask that you keep an open mind and are willing to consider that Dusty MAY not be the guy to take the Cubs to the next level.

I, for one, believe he is this generations Chuck Tanner.

i said it wouldnt suprise me to see cedeno/murton get 80-ish ab's and that's about all i expect.

and yeah...i believe murton/cedeno will get 80-ish+ ab's each this month.

Crunch,

First of all saying you belive something will happen and saying something wouldn't suprise you are two vastly different things.

I'll also remind you that before you said you believed each of them would get those ABs, you had been on one of your strawman rants about how it was only 2 days into September so we "didn't know" how Dusty was going to use the kids. So while you might not have said the word "promise" you certainly did imply that the rest of us were fools for predicting that the future would look exactly like the past.

We're now a week into September, and nothing's nothings changed. Suprise, Suprise.

And yes, do I think Cedeno and Murton are more likely to end up with a combined 80 ABs than they are to end up with 80 ABs each. But what's pathetic is that 80 ABs is the minimum both of those guys should get, and there is no good reason why they shouldn't.

See, I was able to wrap all of that up in one nice, neat, post. Believe it or not, it can be done.

(no idea on his OBP since the IA Cubs site doesn't track BB and I don't have the patience to search through boxscores at the moment)

Wow, doesn't that just some up the problems with the thought process throughout Cubs organization....

Starting Tonight's Game
_______________________
(probable order)
LF Jerry Hairston Jr
SS #Neifi Perez
1B Derrek Lee
RF *Jeromy Burnitz
3B Nomar Garciaparra
2B *Todd Walker
C Michael Barrett
CF *Corey Patterson
P *Greg Maddux

(in no particular order)
SS David Eckstein
CF *Jim Edmonds
1B Albert Pujols
C Yadier Molina
2B Mark Grudzielanek
LF John Rodriguez
3B *Abraham Nunez
RF Larry Walker
P Mark Mulder

"I think playing Patterson everyday is a good idea as they need to determine if he will be a Cub next year. If he can turn things around now or in winter ball, then hecan be out CF next year. If not...BYE BYE."

I have personally seen more than enough, and a complete lack of development (in fact, he has regressed HUGE) to send him packing now.

"I think playing Patterson everyday is a good idea as they need to determine if he will be a Cub next year. If he can turn things around now or in winter ball, then hecan be out CF next year. If not...BYE BYE."

Manny,

Cpat has sucked since last september, but your willing to overlook that because of 3 good weeks he might have. Ridciolous!

"One, you're looking at 2004 and 2003 statistics. Two, he hit .355 with a SLG of .518 in 245 AB in AAA Iowa this season "

So in the last two years, he was terrible. This year, he was excellent in AAA.

His OBP this year, btw, is .403, consistent with a .355 avg.

I just look at Cedeno as a guy who was nowhere on the radar screen for a reason. Until proven otherwise, one year blips do not hold as much weight in my eyes as a multi-year trend.

I just think the kid needs more time in the minors. He needs to be playing down there every day. I don't think that next year he will be ready for the majors even if he plays the next 25 games.

We need to teach fundamentals and devtelop players in the farm system so they come up ready to play and not need to be taught those fundamentals up here. Cuz lord knows our coaching staff does a terrible job of teaching at this level.

"We need to teach fundamentals and devtelop players in the farm system so they come up ready to play and not need to be taught those fundamentals up here."

Why?

You have to go back to the 80's to find the last quality position player that stuck with the Cubs. We use our minor league position players as tradebait not serious active roster candidates. So it's pretty smart of the Cubs to make them flawed and weak on fundamentals --- if they're playing at all, they're playing for our opponents.

"So it's pretty smart of the Cubs to make them flawed and weak on fundamentals --- if they're playing at all, they're playing for our opponents."

LOL...(assuming that entire bit was dripping in sarcasm)

It would be nice to not still see Mike Harkey's name on the Top 10 all-time players developed by the Cubs.

I just look at Cedeno as a guy who was nowhere on the radar screen for a reason.

The problem is that Cedeno was not "nowhere on the radar screen." The Cubs have been very high on Cedeno for a long time. He's never been considered one of the Cubs top prospects (because his ceiling is limited), but he's very much been on the team's radar for some time. There is a reason he's been promoted 6 times in the past 4 years.

Also, I hesitate to call .279/.328/.401 for a 21 year old SS in AA "terrible."

Until proven otherwise, one year blips do not hold as much weight in my eyes as a multi-year trend.

The multi-year trend that you are missing, of course, is his age for each level.

I just think the kid needs more time in the minors. He needs to be playing down there every day.

I don't necessarily disagree with this idea, but I'd think that playing every day in the majors would be at least as useful (to both Cedeno and the Cubs organization) as playing every day in the minors. Given that the AAA season is now over, I see no reason why he shouldn't play every day in Chicago (unless you think that playing every day for even one month under Baker will permanently screw him up).

>It would be nice to not still see Mike Harkey's name on the Top 10 all-time players developed by the Cubs.

How 'bout Banks, Williams, Santo, Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Maddux, Grace, Dunston, Reuschel, Holtzman--even Larry Gura, Jamie Moyer and Lou Brock, for God sakes.

All players off the top of my head who could effectively keep Mike Harkey out of the Top 10. With a little more digging, we could probably keep him out of the Top 50, even.

Particularly, Weeks, when half of that 21 year old's .279/.328/.401 line at Double-A is put up in one of the more pitcher friendly ballparks in a pitcher friendly league.

Ron and tbone, talking about golf swings and octopuses falling out of trees, which I have to admit is a phrase that's new to me and pretty funny too, a quick Google search suggests that the phrase was most famously used, or perhaps coined, by CBS commentator David Feherty in 1992, who was responding to seeing Jim Furyk's swing for the first time: "it looked like an octopus falling out of a tree. Or like a man trying to kill a snake in a phone booth".

I wonder what he'd say about my golf swing. Because it's worse. Perhaps my octopus would be epileptic too.

X--"I just look at Cedeno as a guy who was nowhere on the radar screen for a reason."

Further to what Weeks said, Hendry protected Cedeno from the Rule 5 draft by adding him to the 40 man roster in November 2003, a move that was met with incredulity given that that came immediately after the season in which, assuming your composite numbers to be true (and I have no reason to believe they're not, I just can't look them up myself right now), Cedeno hit .212/.263/.295 between Low-A and High-A. If that's not evidence that Hendry really liked Cedeno, because of his tools relative to his age, and feared that others may feel the same way too, I don't know what is, because Hendry burned an option year in 2004 to guarantee that the Cubs would retain Cedeno, an option year that means come Opening Day 2007, it'll be stick in the bigs or through waivers for Cedeno. Furthermore, the Cubs didn't even see fit to ask Cedeno to repeat High-A in 2004, in spite of his struggles there the previous year, promoting him regardless. He's on the fast track, at least was until he made the big leagues.

...or at least was until he made the big leagues, if you're wondering what on earth that last phrase is all about.

chifan3887 + samclyatt

chifan...thanks for saying nothing about anything yet running your mouth. that was as worthless as most of your comments about how we're gonna trade for adam dunn and have soriano/garciappa playing in the OF.

i asked you guys to come with substance and you came with bitching. you kids need a spanking or a pacifier...

AND TO THE 3-4 PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY ANSWERED MY QUESTION RATHER THAN JUMPED DOWN MY NECK ABOUT STUPID CRAP...thanks.

and bleeding...thanks for ignoring everything i asked of you and just ranting. no NO ONE has to answer my questions, but after being called out by you in 2 posts recently i really wanted to hear your opinions on something other than a lineup or a manager.

"The multi-year trend that you are missing, of course, is his age for each level. "

No - I didn't miss that at all. That's the reason I am saying he needs more time in the minors to see what he might be, rather than be rushed to the bigs as we have done with offensive prospects in the past.

"but I'd think that playing every day in the majors would be at least as useful (to both Cedeno and the Cubs organization) as playing every day in the minors. "

Well - history says that rushing a kid who isn't ready to the bigs is usually more harmful than helpful.

"All players off the top of my head who could effectively keep Mike Harkey out of the Top 10. With a little more digging, we could probably keep him out of the Top 50, even."

Your sarcasm detector is broken. Please upgrade to Sarcasm 2.0. (Geez - did you really think I was serious about Harkey?) But the fact that you had to include HOFers and guys who were top 5ish overall draft picks in order to move Harkey off the list is sad and pathetic. I hope your use of that list isn't intended to vindicate the organization from charges of gross negligence when it comes to developing Major League talent that can help the Chicago Cubs.

Look gang - I have no problem considering him a prospect. But we are already doing with this guy what we have done with so many before him. I'm not going to make a list of all the Ty Griffins I can come up with. I am not going to spend 20 min trying to remember if Jon Perlman is spelled Perl or Pearl. I won't get gas thinking of Earl Cunningham or Jeff Wehmeir. But why are we in such a rush to consider Ronny Cedeno as a starter for next year? I have no problem getting him ABs now. I have no problem having him play instead of Nomar, Neifi, Walker, etc. But this should not be in preparation for next year - it should be in preparation for 2007. That's all I was trying to get at. He may be good, he may be great, he may be Luis Montanez. But let's allow him to develop at a normal pace rather than to build unrealistic expectations onto him. Let's have an organizational plan where we have a real SS next year while Cedeno grows into it. Let's show some organizational discipline rather than rush every kid who goes on a hot streak up to the show. That's all...

i dunno how any of you who throw insults on me think you're being clever...especially since a lot of you never have anything of substance to say besides mystery lineups where players move all the field out of natural possitions, anger at lineups, anger at managers...and rarely have anything to back it up except some numbers you dug up that sometimes have very little to do with your arguements.

i suggest you ignore what i say if all you gotta say is "that dumb! hur hur hur!" cuz yeah, i will call you out eventually.

i dont jump at every jab, but when you pile up enough, you're gonna hear about it.

if i responded to every post i thought was dumb, shortsighted, or straight out ignorant, we'd see a lot more of me to piss you off.

>Your sarcasm detector is broken . . . But the fact that you had to include HOFers and guys who were top 5ish overall draft picks in order to move Harkey off the list is sad and pathetic.

Well, which is it? Should the sarcasm detector be on or off?

P.S. Harkey was himself a #4 pick, so I don't think it's reaching if we're replacing him with other Top 5 picks.

"Well, which is it? Should the sarcasm detector be on or off?"

I was being totally sarcastic putting Harkey into that list. But the fact is that this Franchise, since the 1950s, has one of the lowest success rates in terms of developing players. That's undeniable.

>this franchise, since the 1950s, has one of the lowest success rates in terms of developing players.

Unfortunately, this is one of those canards that gets thrown out there, always without any substantiation. Intuitively, it would SEEM to be true, but I've never seen any evidence to back it up.

My feeling is that their success at developing talent has swung up and down this way:

Early-to-mid 1950s - down, near bottom of majors.
Mid '50s-mid '60s - middle of the pack, maybe upper third of majors.
Mid '60s-mid '90s - the real dry spell. Sucking wind in minor league system for three decades.
Mid '90s-2004 - Improving, entering top 10% of majors for first time.
2005 - My guess is that Baseball America will put them around 15th in majors when issue their franchise rankings in early '06.

"2005 - My guess is that Baseball America will put them around 15th in majors when issue their franchise rankings in early '06"

and ryan harvey will rank VERY high and people will look at his numbers and go "huh?"

right now harvey may not be making the most stellar contact or plate selection, but his raw power, defense, and sheer results of his raw power are pretty amazing for his age and where he plays.

pie/r.hill/harvey should be fighting it out for the 1-3 slots if murton is no longer eligable.

BA's Top Cubs Prospect over the years:

1995 Brooks Kieschnick, of
1996 Brooks Kieschnick, of
1997 Kerry Wood, rhp
1998 Kerry Wood, rhp
1999 Corey Patterson, of
2000 Corey Patterson, of
2001 Corey Patterson, of
2002 Mark Prior, rhp
2003 Hee Seop Choi, 1b
2004 Angel Guzman, rhp
2005 Brian Dopirak, 1b

for comparision the Braves:
1995 Chipper Jones, ss/3b
1996 Andruw Jones, of
1997 Andruw Jones, of
1998 Bruce Chen, lhp
1999 Bruce Chen, lhp
2000 Rafael Furcal, ss
2001 Wilson Betemit, ss
2002 Wilson Betemit, ss
2003 Adam Wainwright, rhp
2004 Andy Marte, 3b
2005 Jeff Francoeur, of

Twins:
1995 LaTroy Hawkins, rhp
1996 Todd Walker, 2b
1997 Todd Walker, 2b
1998 Luis Rivas, ss
1999 Michael Cuddyer, 3b
2000 Michael Cuddyer, 3b
2001 Adam Johnson, rhp
2002 Joe Mauer, c
2003 Joe Mauer, c
2004 Joe Mauer, c
2005 Joe Mauer, c

A's:
1995 Ben Grieve, of
1996 Ben Grieve, of
1997 Miguel Tejada, ss
1998 Ben Grieve, of
1999 Eric Chavez, 3b
2000 Mark Mulder, lhp
2001 Jose Ortiz, 2b
2002 Carlos Pena, 1b
2003 Rich Harden, rhp
2004 Bobby Crosby, ss
2005 Nick Swisher, of

BA's word is certainly not the final word and hardly all that prophetic. Just more fuel to the scouts vs. stats debate. You'd have to find a source that relies more on stats, maybe someone like John Sickels, and compare the lists over the years, but I'm guessing they'd be just as successful as BA is....

ya know john s. has no formal baseball training...just a guy who's watched a ton of baseball.

i believe he has a degree in history.

im a sickels fan...some stuff i agree with, some i dont, but the guy is fair.

1997 Miguel Tejada, ss
1998 Ben Grieve, of
1999 Eric Chavez, 3b
2000 Mark Mulder, lhp
2001 Jose Ortiz, 2b
2002 Carlos Pena, 1b
2003 Rich Harden, rhp
2004 Bobby Crosby, ss
2005 Nick Swisher, of

That's crazy.

I dunno how any of you who throw insults on me think you're being clever...especially since a lot of you never have anything of substance to say.....

Gee Crunch, I have no idea why people would insult you. You think everyone else's opinion's are worthless. Alot of us think your opinion's are worthless. You have no problem telling us how wrong we are everyday, and we have no problems telling you how wrong you are.

You know what I see over and over Crunch? Other posters will give a well thought out idea of their thinking and then you will just dismiss it right away in your first sentence and repeat the same thing you said in a previous thread, and a thread before that. Like it is the bible. You don't actually read anything anyone has to say, because as you said, we have nothing of substance to say anyways.....

The only solution to the problem is that there is no solution. Agree to disagree.

"Unfortunately, this is one of those canards that gets thrown out there, always without any substantiation. Intuitively, it would SEEM to be true, but I've never seen any evidence to back it up."

I think that if someone cared enough to argue, thhe statement "one of the lowest" rates would hold true. Since that wording actually is fairly open in terms of how low it defines it.

But that's wholly irrelevant. This is not about statistics, math, or actually WHERE we would rank them, rather that they rank very poorly. Your own statement puts them well below average since for 35 of the 55 years in question, you rank them "sucking wind" or "down near the bottom". I'd also vehemently disagree that from the mid 90s to 2004 we were ranked "in the top 10% of MLB" since that would make us a top 3 franchise in terms of talent developed. I watched too many of those guys to believe that. (maybe you meant top 10? even still, for much of that time this would be a reach). And now, yeah, middle of the pack, at best - but trending down more and more each day as our once prized prospects get hurt or get written off.

Sax, my point is that we are historically poor at developing talent. And we are even worse when we start rushing talent. So lets get a MLB SS to play SS next year. Lets get a MLB LF to play LF next year. Lets get a MLB CF to play CF next year. And lets develop our talent to play fundamentally sound baseball in the MINOR LEAGUES, rather than constantly be working on fundamentals at the major league level.

My personal opinion is that Murton and Cedeno should spend another full year in the minors.

"Unfortunately, this is one of those canards that gets thrown out there, always without any substantiation. Intuitively, it would SEEM to be true, but I've never seen any evidence to back it up."

I think that if someone cared enough to argue, thhe statement "one of the lowest" rates would hold true. Since that wording actually is fairly open in terms of how low it defines it.

But that's wholly irrelevant. This is not about statistics, math, or actually WHERE we would rank them, rather that they rank very poorly. Your own statement puts them well below average since for 35 of the 55 years in question, you rank them "sucking wind" or "down near the bottom". I'd also vehemently disagree that from the mid 90s to 2004 we were ranked "in the top 10% of MLB" since that would make us a top 3 franchise in terms of talent developed. I watched too many of those guys to believe that. (maybe you meant top 10? even still, for much of that time this would be a reach). And now, yeah, middle of the pack, at best - but trending down more and more each day as our once prized prospects get hurt or get written off.

Sax, my point is that we are historically poor at developing talent. And we are even worse when we start rushing talent. So lets get a MLB SS to play SS next year. Lets get a MLB LF to play LF next year. Lets get a MLB CF to play CF next year. And lets develop our talent to play fundamentally sound baseball in the MINOR LEAGUES, rather than constantly be working on fundamentals at the major league level.

My personal opinion is that Murton and Cedeno should spend another full year in the minors.

Meanwhile back on the Dusty Baker front, he has resorted to making up injuries. This can't be going over well with the players...

Despite a denial by Mark Prior, manager Dusty Baker repeated Tuesday that Prior was suffering from a leg problem when he was removed from Monday's game after six innings and 104 pitches.

Prior said after the game his legs were fine and he did not know why he was removed. Baker was asked Tuesday about their conflicting comments.

"He's fine, but he has a light strain that we have to watch," Baker said. "That's all."

Baker declined to elaborate on the injury.

"It's a slight leg thing," he said. "It's not serious. We certainly don't want to lose him down the stretch."

Why would Baker make up an injury? What possible motive does it serve? Who knows, who cares, just further proof Baker has lost all grasp of reality and at this point is losing respect of his players quickly. No player likes to be linked to an injury that doesn't exist especially in Prior's case because it can hurt future earnings down the road.

"Gee Crunch, I have no idea why people would insult you. You think everyone else's opinion's are worthless. Alot of us think your opinion's are worthless. You have no problem telling us how wrong we are everyday, and we have no problems telling you how wrong you are."

yeah mike...i got no problem with that.

but how about you tell me how wrong i am with substance.

some do, some dont. simple as that.

some people wanna whine just to whine...i dont say much of anything i dont back up. im not here posting 100 times a day about how dusty sucks cuz player 1 is playing over player 2 without even saying what's so special about either.

my opinions are no more or less valid than anyone elses...but ANYTHING ive been wrong about i do believe i have accepted full responsibility for.

i do not change my responces to fill some "im never wrong" stance like blue did in his last post.

---

"Other posters will give a well thought out idea of their thinking and then you will just dismiss it right away in your first sentence and repeat the same thing you said in a previous thread"

i dont see that at all. i wanna know what well thought out stuff im pissing to the wind by others. i wanna know when ive told people their opinion is straight up wrong. i havent. i let people have their say, even in this post, without calling them out on it cuz its opinion and i know the difference between fact and opinion.

now, ive had you call me stupid and other crap back during that dubois thing for just being a messenger of his abilities.

i dont make this crap up about stuff as obvious as dubois's flaws. no amount of wishful thinking can fix those things. dubois is the only person who can do anything about it.

no amount of wishful thinking based on stupid minor league numbers can make a major leaguer outta anyone.

yes, i talk to scouts...yes, theyre pretty bored people...yes, they'll talk to anyone...no, they dont always agree...and yes, you can learn a lot from seeing 2 overweight low-paid scouts bitch back and forth about what they think about these kids. and yeah...after years of this ive been taught what to look at and i have my own opinions about players. o..pin..ions..

just cuz im outspoken doesnt mean im shoving my opinion down other's throats as fact. i see other people doing that, though...but you're not so quick to call them out cuz they have the same beliefs as you.

"yes, i talk to scouts."

That's interesting. Like, for instance, who?

--

Item: MATT LAWTON in Yankee pinstripes continues his unblemished record of falling flat on his face every year after the All-Star break.

.160/ .276/ .280 so far

no names...if you go to any minor league game, especially around june/july you'll see them all over...theyre the guys with the guns, stopwatches, and/or clipboards (a lot wont pull the guns out during a game and get that work done pre-game).

they tend to sit together in groups. they also tend to be bored as shit and pretty lax about their "work". theyre mostly underpaid but love what they do.

some ive gotten to know over the years, some i bump into cuz of the people i know that they happen to be hanging around with that day.

they're working class joes who spend a lot of time away from their homes.

and about matt lawton...wtf is up with him just falling off the table...he's not supposed to be that bad...odd crap.

Speaking of MATT LAWTON. We received JUSTIN BERG in exchange and assigned him to PEORIA (A) where he immediately lost all ability to find the plate and in two appearances was shelled for 7 runs in 6.2 while walking 6 and striking out 3.

WELCOME TO THE CUBS Justin.

Which minor league team's games do you go to crunch?

durham bulls and carolina mudcats mostly...oddly, though...i dont know a single tampa bay or marlins scout beyond a few words and watching them bitch with other friends.

durham is a GREAT place to watch a game...semi-cruddy food aside, all the seats are great and the seats give you room to enjoy a nice 3-hour game. i highly suggest anyone anywhere near the area take in a few games there. the "violent durham" reputation is overblown, especially around the stadium area.

the mountains of NC is a great place to catch some lower-tier games but i just cant bring myself to get to charlotte too much cuz i just hate that city...and i dont have many friends there that are into baseball.

and bleeding...thanks for ignoring everything i asked of you and just ranting.

To be fair, I didn't actually ignore your question, I just had tuned out by the time you asked the question at the end of your 3rd or 5 posts.

First off:
some other similar thing that would make you think a scout's job starts and ends at the highschool/college level.

I have never said anything of the sorts. What I have said is that while scouts and stats are both useful in determining pluses and minues of a player, no one will ever know what a player can or can not do on the big league level until they've actually done it. Baseball is littered with "can't miss" prospects who turned into 4A or worse players. Its also seen more than its share of "projected utility guys" who turned into Hall of Famers.

As far as Murton and Cedeno go specifically:

Murton is clearly the best option the Cubs have in LF right now, and it has been that way for some time. He's a guy who can get on base a lot, which the cubs have needed forever, but yes, if he wants to be a true star in the league he will need to develope some power. For him to sit on the bench while Hairston and Patterson (or Hollandsworth previously) start most everyday is just flat out rediculous.

As far as Cedeno goes, I think he's got the potential to be a solid everyday shortstop. He might never be more than a utility guy, but I think he deserves a chance to see what he can do as an everyday player. At the very least, I see him as being Neifi Perez, and if you've got an unknown commodity that's at least as good as what you already know, they I believe you should try the unknown commodity. Long term, I think there is value in having him also play some 2b and 3b. In 2006, I'd like to see Cedeno starting in Iowa but called up as the starter if Furcal, Walker, or ARam are injured. And then penciled in to start 2007 at 2b. Unfortunatly, the problem is you'd also need Neifi or another vet ss on the roster as a regular backup, and with Dusty as manager, Cedeno needs to be the only ss on the bench for him to get a legitamate chance at regular playing time in that situation.

thnx blue.

JK1969:
"You are an interesting poster, one who I believe sees alot of the anti Dusty Postings as part of the usual nature of fanatics letting off steam, without really digging beneath the surface...I ask that you keep an open mind and are willing to consider that Dusty MAY not be the guy to take the Cubs to the next level."

I will do so and have even said that Hendry and baker should only get one more year to prove their worthiness. I am on record with that. No playoffs next year...no excuses...BYE BYE.

Also, thanks for a considerate, level headed, nonattacking psot. I look forward to reading your posts in the future!!!

"Mid '60s-mid '90s - the real dry spell. Sucking wind in minor league system for three decades."

Saxfan,
Did you forget Maddux, Moyer, Palmeiro, Hatcher, Martinez, Grace, and Dunston in the 80s? A better crop than is being produced in this supposed Golden Age of the Cubs' farm system.

Newman:
"Manny - Why should a few weeks of good performance from Patterson give him the starting CF job next year?"

Because he is an above average defensive CF when there is only one real legit CF on teh market. If hwe can keep CPat for under $2 million and he can be at least average offensively, it will be more than adaquate. that is why I am willing to give him the extra shot he probally doesn't deserve.

X & Chifan-
Please read my above post to expaqlin my CPAT stance. I don't think he should be with the team next year, but if he can show signs if coming back, I would be willing to bring him back.

MIKEC-
Thanks for your daily Baker quote, I was waiting all day for it.

Manny--"I am on record with that. No playoffs next year...no excuses...BYE BYE."

Did you say the same thing last year?

Manny - Unless the Cubs non-tender Corey and then resign him (he could not resign until mid May), an under $2M salary for next year is impossible. The CBA only allows a maximum reduction of 20% in salary, year over year(the union will not allow him to sign for less than the CBA mandates). If the $2.8M figure is correct (his 2005 salary) the best the Cubs could do in arb is $2.24. Seems that the likelihood of him being "average offensively" is fairly remote. IMO, this team can't go into next year with a bunch of ???s like they did this year. Even if they fill all the other holes (LF, SS, RP, RF) with legit player, I'd be hesitant to risk putting Corey out there everyday and as a back up CF and pinch runner, he'd be way too expensive.

Yes, there is only one big name FA CF this off-season, but Hendry doesn't have a rep for signing big name FAs. Seems like he prefers to trade for players. As we all know "everything is available for the right price" so don't throw out the idea of other players still under contract being available.

My thoughts:

If you sign Nomar to say a 1 yr 4M contract and have Cedeno as his back up at the major league minimum, its not a bad move. Furcal is looking for about 8-10M, so this scenario could be a good financial move.

As for CPat, why not let him hang himself? Instead of giving him away, let him earn his spot on the depth chart. He's a servicable 4th outfielder who can come off the bench, steal a base, play late inning defense and even possibly crack one out of the park. I know he's expensive for a 4th outfielder but unless you get something for good for him, we should just keep him.

As for Murton, I like him just fine. That said, if he's in one spot, better get a 35-40 homer man for the other-rf.

Oh yea, Juan Pierre has lost his lead off spot. The Marlins are using Castillo in the leadoff spot and Pierre 7th.

Last but not least, the Central looks to be much tougher next year. I expect the Brewers, Pirates and Reds to be much improved.

John Hill:
"Did you say the same thing last year?"

No.

I could have sworn that there was a lot of "he's had one good season, he's had one bad season, this next season will tell us which one was for real" from you this time last year. Or maybe I'm thinking about someone else. I don't remember so well.

1. Corey is this generation's Billy Beane and Oddibie McDwowell. I have seen enough, based on his minors and over 1,500 major league plate appearances to know that even if he catches fire for a week or two now, it will be a statistical uptick in an otherwise flatlining career. He will never be a star and should not be a regular on any team that seriously intends to contend. The batter's box is his place of misery and he seeks to escape it as fast as possible. When the Cubs's management brings him back to start CF next season, it will be proof that they value their own vainity over fielding a serious team.

2. Cedeno has had two good seasons in a row, 2004 and 2005. Both he and Murton have proved all they need to prove in AA and AAA. We need to find out if they can play in ML. It appears to me that Dusty has made a judgement either that a) Murton (and perhaps Cedeno) is not his type of player or b) that if he plays them now and they look good, his earlier decision not to play them when the team was in contention will look bad. I think rationale "a" comes out of his rationale "b," Dusty's vainity. I have come to the conclusion that Murton will not get much playing time on a Dusty team, and if Neifi comes back next season, neither will Cedeno. I don't want to trade them, but perhaps it would be best for them and the Cubs that they be part of a trade for players Dusty will play, but who will address the Cubs problems.

3. Newman, you missed another serious hole in this team, SP. Right now the rotaion is Zambrano, Maddux, a frequently hurt Prior, an always hurt Wood, and X. The Cubs need a least two starters and since I have lost faith in their farm system and Rothschild to develop pitchers, that means trade or FA.

John Hill-
I might of said that, don't remember, but that is no where near the same thing as saying if the Cubs don't make teh playoffs next, that Hendry and baker should be fired. Not even close....

kind of sad how crunch, by virtue of simply being NEUTRAL on the dustyisawfulthecubsaretheworstorganizationever nonsense...has become a pariah here!

the inmates are moderating their own blog, I suppose. too bad...the other team blogs on here are much more interesting at this point, even though I could give two craps about the red sox, padres etc. but at least they don't have a horde of angry 19 year olds who think they know everything about baseball spitting their vitriol all over the place. and the mods contribute to it! unbelievable.

it's one thing to be inflammatory and loud, but it's another thing to just be boring. most of you are so predictable that it's simply boring to read at this point. something happened? let me guess: baker's fault. something GOOD happened? let me guess, it was in spite of baker, or neifi got lucky because he's really awful. been reading that junk since April...

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