Today in Cubs History: 12-15

12-15-2003 - Traded Damian Miller and cash to the Oakland Athletics. Received Michael Barrett. 12-15-1997 - Drafted Roosevelt Brown from the Florida Marlins in the 1997 minor league draft. 12-15-1912 - Traded Joe Tinker, Harry Chapman and Grover Lowdermilk to the Cincinnati Reds. Received Bert Humphries, Red Corriden, Pete Knisely, Art Phelan and Mike Mitchell. Baseball-reference has the date of the Tinker trade as today, Baseball Library has it as happening on the 11th. Either way, it ended Tinker's eleven-year run as the Cubs starting shortstop. Tinker evidently was unusually focused on his salary for a player in his time, and after 1912 the Cubs had had enough.
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Yes, as a Christian 'we' should not have fought Hitler. 'We' should not have fought the English. My ancestors have been called cowards and unpatriotic...so I won't be surprised if you do so now.

I have though long and hard about his. I began my Christian life as a follower of 'Just War'--the real just war theory, that is. After receiving a BA in Bible and Religion, and an MA in Theology, I have come to embrace pacifism and believe that ALL forms of violence are unethical.

I would much rather have my body destroyed than my soul. Neitsche said, "He who fights with monsters should take care, lest he also becomes a monster."

As a Christian and Mennonite, my model for how I live out my life is not directed by the mores or customs of society, but by the life and teaching of Jesus Christ. "Here I stand, I can do no other. God help me. Amen." - Luther.

MikeC, I am a firm believer that the John Birch Society was right. The UN is a world communist organization. But thats just me.

As far as Iraq and how long we'll be there, we're still in Germany and Japan, and they're some of our closest allies. Of course thats $50B later ( in 1950s $). But those countries we actually had valid reasons for invading, namely that Germany declared war on us and Japan did not, but did attack Pearl Harbor.
Basically, I contend that the US invaded Iraq because of the fact that we could not find or bring to justice the mastermind of 9/11 Osama bin Laden. Saddam is conveniently also both villainous and Islamic. It was so hilarious when he, too, evaded cappture for six months. But it was a bit distressing to see people mostly accept this substitution Saddam for Osama.
But now we're into it. While we never had to go in, we cant just pull out now. There's all sorts of high minded reasons, but just look to the gas pumps. During the uncertainty of Katrina, look how high the prices shot up. Now imagine if we just pulled out of Iraq. Ouch. I know I dont want to bike everywhere. Not only would Iraq devolve into a chaos of warlords and mullahs, it would destabilize the region, already rife with dictators, much like in Africa beween Egypt and South Africa.
The only hope of a silver lining in this is if we can found a strong, stable government, like in Germany or Japan, to stabillize the region. Then we wont need Israel, which acts like stabilizing force there currently. Other nations in the area hate and fear Israel to varying degrees, and so are in a fashion polarized against Israel, and so are thus defined. If these nations were alternatively defined by their economic and political relationships with a democratic Iraq, then the US ceases to need Israel and its vaunted military to stabilize the region.
Then se stop supplying said military with hardware such as Blackhawk helicopters and Tomahawk missiles, which they use to perform raids, establish checkpoints, and execute Palestinian leaders. When we do that, Muslims will be less likely to be angry enough with America that they attempt to fly planes into our buildings.

But on to baseball... What would the price for say, Geoff Jenkins be? He'd be a good fit with us, being a power lefty that can feild reasonably well in right. He truly is the 'younger, better, Burnitz.' Both he and Carlos Lee will be free agents after next year, and at $8M/yr and going up for each of them, you dont figure that Milwaukee will try to keep or get nothing for both of them.

The Joe:
"Yes, as a Christian 'we' should not have fought Hitler. 'We' should not have fought the English."

Thankfully, I am 100% athiest then.

I do not like war but it is unfortunatly needed at times.

Funny how the very philosopher you just quoted was one of Hitler's heros. AND helped Hitler form his belief in the master race.

I wouldn't call you a coward. But if China rolled up on our shores tomorrow, we should just let them take our country? WOW! Thats not unpatriotic. It's idiotic. I just can't understand any God who would command His people NOT to defend their lives. Well, thats messed up. Cause if there is one lesson they taught me in religious school is that when they come to round you up and put you in a death camp, that you don't go gently into that goodnight, that you fight like hell. I'll be damned if they put this Jew on a train. NEVER AGAIN!!

Well, you are free to believe as you wish, as am I.

I would recommend the book "Engaging the Powers" by Walter Wink to anyone who does believe that war is 'needed'. I personally believe that war 'as a last resort' is an invention of society.

As an atheist, it probably doesn't matter to you, but ALL early Christians were nonviolent. It wasn't until Constantine adopted Christianity that violence 'as a last resort' etc. came into being. Early Christians and my Anabaptist ancestors suffered torture and execution rather than defend themselves with violence, and thus I take the issue very seriously.

Right, Brad Ausmus!

"Wes Helms Wannabe" is the best handle I've seen on here in a while.

Since anything goes on this board right now, has anyone seen the trailer for that movie about the digitally animated dancing jamaican penguins voiced by robin williams? i challenge someone to come up with a worse concept for a movie.

go cubs!

whatever. so did my ancestors. Violence SAVES lives. Just ask the survivors in the uprising in the Polish Ghettos. With out the uprising, they would have been gassed at a death camp.

Hitler's admiration of Luther doesn't make Luther and admirer of Hitler.

Personally, I'm a fan of the reformation, not of Luther.

"Thats not unpatriotic. It's idiotic." That's the point that people just don't get. It is not the Christian's job to preserve the state. If China invades, then so be it. We cannot change others, we can only control how we react to others. By reacting with violence, I become what I hate.

And what I am saying, Chad, is that souls are more important than lives. I do not wish for anyone to be killed, certainly not Jewish people in the holocaust, but I would rather die, than to take the life of another.

If you want a true sense of what is going on in Iraq read military blogs. They are the ones on the front lines and most of them think it is worth it.

I would suggest reading a blog called BlackFive or Citizen Smash. From there you can get connected to tons of other military bloggers and Iraqi bloggers.

I don't like CNN that much. I like FoxNews. I know I am a heretic! But I haven't watched that much FoxNews in the last year. Most of the people are obnoxious to listen to on Fox. They make some good points but you have to wade through the bullshit to find the good points. CNN's war coverage was what really made me disgusted with them. They were pimping Saddam's propaganda so they could get exclusive interviews. My favorite moment was when CNN and the other pool of reporters that had the "inside" scoop with the minister of dis-information on top of that building in the middle of Iraq.

Reports were coming off FoxNews that we had reached the Baghdad airport. FoxNews refused to tow the Saddam propaganda line so they weren't allowed to be on the "inside" and get scoops like CNN. The minister of dis-information was telling the reporters that the American forces had been annihalted at the airport and were in full retreat. More importantly he repeated that no American forces had entered the city. But just in the background you could see an American M1A1 Abrams tank rolling across a bridge. It was fucking hilarious! So I switch over to FoxNews and they had an embedded reporter who was traveling with the unit who was entering Baghdad.

That was just comedy gold. FoxNews was reporting American units have seized large portions of Baghdad and are making deep insertions into the city with little or no resistance.

You flip back over to CNN and it is DOOM AND GLOOM! The American military is getting its ass kicked and the battle of Baghdad is going to be a bloody mess. It took CNN about a half hour to reluctantly admit american forces had not been defeated at the airport, and that we were freely roaming about the city with virtually no resistance.

The best thing to do is to get your news from many sources. Just don't travel the CNN, NYT, Daily Kos route. Compare what is being said on one side to what is being said in the other side. Then make your decision of what you think is going on. That can not be stressed enough. Form your own opinion don't let others form it for you.

I was talking about Neitsche. You quoted him. I don't know anything about Hitler's admiration of Luther. I know he read/quoted/admired Neitsche. I'm not up to date on 19th century philosophers but I'm pretty sure the concept of the Superman was Neitsche.

Regardless, I never once felt you wanted Jews to die nor anyone else for that matter.

Or were you talking about Neitzche?

A bit of pride on my part.

The first units to enter Baghdad were from my old unit. Alpha Company 4th Battalion 64th armor from the 3rd Infantry Division out of Fort Stewart Georgia. The Assassins we were known as. We flew our trademark skull and cross bones flag from the antenna on our tanks.

So it was kind of cool to see them sitting in the middle of downtown Baghdad with that old skull and cross bones flag waving in the wind.

The reports of their demise at the airport were greatly exaggerated! Way to give em hell boys.

Sorry, it makes sense now what you were talking about. I'm not overly fond of Neitsche, myself. But I do admire his criticism of Christedom. (You're right, the superman -ubermenche- was his)

Yeah, I didn't think you thought that. I just want to make it clear that I do take it very seriously that millions of Jews were murdered, and I mourn such a loss to humanity. I also mourn the losses in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki......I also don't want to make any enemies here. I truly understand and respect how you and many others feel, I just disagree.

It looks like Nomar is going to the Astros or Dodgers by the sounds of Stark's latest article on espn.com.

Did anyone mention Looper going to the Cards? Nice pickup by them.

What the hell happened to this blog? I thought it was about sports?? Am I wrong?

The Joe - this is The Issue I've been debating with myself. I have a healthy though not absolute respect for the Mennonite, Quaker and Catholic tradition of pacifism as well as the likes of Thoreau, but I also have spent a lot of time thinking about Hanna Arendt's idea of the banality of evil and the bureaucratization and mechanization of evil in general. I wonder if, in an unjust society the place of the just man is not jail passively waiting out the unjust society and depriving it of another gear in its engine, but out actively working to sabotage the engine, fighting for a just society. I'm not sure that my soul is saved more by withdrawal from an unjust world than by engagement with it. I wonder if it might not be more noble of me to sacrifice the purity of my soul and the blood-free status of my hands in order that future generations might not be faced with that choice...

But really, I think about Arendt, and about the fact that totalitarian regimes draw their strength not by gaining majority support, but majority indifference when confronted with the will of an extremist and determined minority. And I wonder if passive resistance isn't just a lesser degree of acceptance...

I'd be interested in hearing what ya think on this The Joe.

The Joe = noble idealist
everyone else = ignoble realist

Neither one is better, just different.

Okay, can we stop talking about this shit now....

3 to 1, the Cubs start opening day with Aubrey Huff in RF. Any takers?

He just came off shoulder surgery so that is alot of money to throw at him even if it is the current market value for set-up men. Makes the Howry signing look good. The one problem I had at the time was I thought we could get a guy like Dotel or Looper cheaper and get the same results. Now when Dotel signs he will at least 2.75 MIL and I would rather have given the xtra 1.25 MIL for a guy I knew was healthy. Heck at this rate with set-up guys some owner will might even hire a team of bounty hunters to free Urbina.

Re Ausmus and the born again contingent
on the Astros, I always tried to imagine
Petite ( who is very outspoken
about his born again Christian faith) chatting in the locker room with Ausmus after a game
"Called a good game there Brad, too bad you
are damned to hell for eternity "
FYI Ausmus is very muc in the Moe Berg
mold as a Dartmouth Grad with a major
in history ( though I doubt he speaks Japanese and 11 other languages)

Chad, Manny & Mike C I don't want to
keep boring the blog with political posts
but I think you guys should all try out
as writers for the Pentagon's
proganda opperation in Iraq which planted
all those "good " news stories in the papers
Apparantly the Iraqi's didn't find enough good
news to report unless it was made up, written by and paid for by the US government

That's it for me

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Thanks for the info, Jessica, I'll be sure to try to keep it in my head. But I could have SWORN he was part of the born-again camp.

Mike - I agree that of course the army is trained to be prepared to handle any situation, but don't you agree that Bush and Rumsfeld and Co. owe it to the troops to make damn certain that there are WMD's and 9-11 ties and that the Iraqis will be eager to see us and that we have enough body armor and so on and so on, before sending them in? I agree, the troops are tough and smart, but don't we at least owe it to them to not make things more difficult than they need to be? Don't we owe it to the troops to not have private contractors over there doing jobs that are redundant with what the military does, except at ten times the salary and without the same code of ethical conducts and rules of engagement that the troops have to abide by? Shouldn't Bush have been interested in the cultural and religious history of the region, the way you are, to understand that we would be sending troops into a tinder box?

I want to give you a lot of credit - it's not often, anymore, that people on opposing sides of the war actually sit down and talk without just yelling at each other and calling names. So I'm really thankful to get to read your thoughts, and they're useful to me. I agree with a lot of what you've said, I just don't think it's enough to justify the blood and the treasure (own own and the Iraqis) that has been expended on this.

Anyways, those are my last thoughts, and I thank everyone for trying, for the most part, to listen to each other. I'm going to go post a thread for tomorrow, please let that new thread start out as a baseball-related thread.

Trans.

Question:

How much money do the Cubs have left to spend in free agency?

I would think it would be alot considering what they were willing to give Furcal.

If so, why the hell aren't they going after some of the quality free agent pitching - Kevin Millwood or Jarrod Washburn. If we got one of those guys, we could afford to trade away Prior for Abreu or Tejada. Somebody explain to me what the Cubs are not pursuing this.

"Apparantly the Iraqi's didn't find enough good
news to report unless it was made up, written by and paid for by the US government."

The news was not made up. We are fighting a PR war over there also aganist the Al-Queda operation there and if it takes those tatics to help get the word out that were the good guys over there and it helps more Iraqis turn aganist Zaraqawi and his thugs than so be it.

That's a nice hit and run Jessica. But indulge me for a second...

Is it impossible for you to believe that there are people out there who are for this war? that there are people out there who actually like our president? I'll bet you don't have one friend that is a republican and you probably don't know any. I doubt you ever speak to any. If you know a republican I'll bet its not by choice. Either they are a family member whom you may tolerate but not like or some one at work who listens to Rush Limbaugh in his cubicle. But then again, I could be wrong. I would love to hear a response to this.

Transmission, I understand where you're coming from. And, like I had said earlier, it is something that I have struggled with as well (and continue to).

I found especially intersting your idea that "I wonder if it might not be more noble of me to sacrifice the purity of my soul and the blood-free status of my hands in order that future generations might not be faced with that choice..." I am reminded of Dietrich Bonhoeffer who was a pacifist. He decided to participate in a plot to assassinate Hitler, which, obviously, failed. His view was that it would be better to "sacrifice the purity of his soul" (exactly how I would have worded it), though he believed that it was wrong to do so, in order to stop such a great evil.

An early discription of Anabaptism was 'in the world but not of the world'. Meaning, we live in the physical world, but our allegiance, activity is within the spiritual world. They refused to vote, be a part of politics, etc. but lived an entirely religious life. Mennonites have definately changed sense then. Many (most?) do vote and are engaged in the world. But all of their efforts are for the promotion of peace.

So I would agree, in a sense, that it should be our role to stay engaged with society, and 'the powers'. I do believe that it is important to attempt to change (heal) the powers...but violence is where I draw the line.

The problem for me, is that there is no be all, end all violence to bring peace. Violence has always and will continue to pervade human existence. Perhaps I would feel differently if I truly believed that my one act of violence will bring lasting peace. Violence may seem to bring peace, and may seem to have brought about the greater good, but violence always perpetuates violence. Whether it causes others to do violence in turn, whether it teaches future generations that violence solves problems--violence as an end is NEVER and end. Again, I would suggest Walter Wink's "Engaging the Powers" who is much more learned and articulate than I, as a very thought provoking book. I believe, that violence 'as a last resort' or 'for the greater good' is only an illusion.

I find it incredibly sad, after Jesus died for his beliefs and after thousands of Christians died passively for theirs, that Christianity today sees the preservation of lives as the ultimate good. Clearly these originaters saw something else much more important.

These are all theologies and philosophies which I hold to, but they are all explanations which come initially from my faith. As a Christian, all that I am and believe, derives from the life and teaching of Jesus. Christ was nonviolent, and taught, categorically, that his followers should be nonviolent. It is the Church (Christendom) which created concessions for violence, not Christ. I am not required to always like, it yet humbly I trust in God, and follow Christ's example.

The Joe - you should watch the Anime series "Gundam Wing" - a stylish Japanese cartoon, dubbed to English, featuring five young warriors and one young pacifist trying to grapple with exactly the same issue. Some of it gets translated into nonsense, in English, but most of it comes through as thoughtful.

Your comments also make me think of American fundamentalists. It's a common mistake, as you certainly are aware, to treat evangelicals and fundamentalists as synonymous. One of the biggest differences is that historically, fundamentalists withdrew from this world out of a similar "of this world but not in it" belief. It is hard to overstate the dramatic, tidal change in American electoral politics that occured when, about 40 years ago, the fundamentalists chose to revoke this practice in favor of political activism more commonly associated with Evangelicals.

having a hard time figuring out what a fundamentalist is? just look up fundament in the dictionary.

har har sigh etc. whatever.

lets hear it for not paying b.looper to pitch for the cubs for 4.5m a year for 3 years...and i thought the dumpster contract was risky...yow.

Huffs numbers have really plunged. Wouldnt want to give up much for him, and only w/ Lugo.

Crunch, you don't know what fundamentals are? Are you the 2004/2005 Chicago Cubs? Good thing Dusty Baker isn't your manager or you'd be screwed.

GROAN.........

To answer an earlier question. Cubs are @ 78 million after the Pierre trade. So even if they go with a 100mil figure. They have 22mil to spend. However, I would NEVER trade Prior. Definitely not for a 31yr old outfielder,nonetheless. My sportswriter friend who is close to the Cubs tells me Hendry sill is waiting on Floyd. Mench is plan B.

Thanks, I appreciate your comments and thoughts. I'll will look into Gundam Wing. I have heard of it, but never watched it. I watch a lot of Asian, and especially Japanese cinema, so I'm definately interested.

You have all certainly given me things to think about. I do not claim to know it all or to have everything figured out, but am always searching for the most honest answers. I think that it is important not to let dogma/convictions to get in the way of our hearts. God's blessings, and Go Cubs.

CMON TRANS! That was a great joke!

Someone asked about how many Jewish players are in the MLB, like 150 posts earlier. It was in the sun times today, there are a total of 13. But I can't name em, pretty unremarkable players..and I threw away the paper already. 6 have been named in earlier posts(Green, Marquis, Kapler, Youkilis, Ausmus, and Greenberg.

Ah , Mike Lieberthal, Dave Roberts, Scott Schoenewiess, and our very own pitching coach Larry Rothschild!!! Future Cubs manager Steve Stone is also Jewish.

Transmission, can you recommend a boxset or something to pickup (like on Amazon or something)? I was looking, and there are a large number of DVDs, but I'm not sure which to look for. Thanks.

Dave Roberts?

The Joe - you want Mobile Suit Gundam Wing - Complete Operations.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001BMMG8/q...

oddly, the canned plot synopsis on this page refers to a different "Gundam" series, but the editorial reviews and title clearly indicate that it's the correct one. There are all sorts of Gundam spinoffs, but the most mature one is Gundam Wing.

Also, "Endless Waltz" is the maybe 90 minute movie that occurs a year in time from the end of the series.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001BMMGI/q...

If you are into thumbing your nose at the RIAA, they're often available at LimeWire or Kazaa or whatever else. Not that I'm endorsing that, mind you.

oldschool dave roberts was jewish..the one from the 70s.

did you guys know koufax was jewish!??!?!

har. umm...yeah.

And since the complete set it so expensive, you can also select to buy subsets of the complete story, for instance "Operation 1" would correspond to about the first five episodes....

Anyways, it's the most mature handling of the politics of war I've seen on a show that can be aired in Afternoons on the cartoon network..... too bad its run ended 5 years ago

So was Hank Greenberg.

Shawn Green, Brad Ausmus, Mike Lieberthal, Al Levine, Scott Schoeneweis, Jason Marquis, Gabe Kapler, John Grabow, Kevin Youkilis, Adam Stern, Craig Breslow, Adam Greenberg and Scott Feldman.
This is the list in the sun times, they did leave off dave roberts I found that elsewhere.

Cool, thanks. I'll look into them.

The current dave roberts is also jewish...here is an article in the boston hearld from '04 saying that he took the day off for Yom Kippur.

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg...

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/Jew...

According to this list Dave Roberts Dad is Jewish. So is Leiberthal.

heh...2 jewish dave roberts...neat.

jeff davanon is about to get an unconditional release, btw. now that's a guy i'd like to see get a minor league contract w/ invite to camp. bench from all 3 OF spots with a touch of speed.

agreed, Crunch. Always liked DaVanon.

"Neitsche said, 'He who fights with monsters should take care, lest he also becomes a monster.'"

Thank you for quoting the wonderful philosophies of Neitsche! He was truly one of the greatest thinkers of his time!

Here are a few facts:

-War is bad, but sometimes unavoidable in our world society. The war in Iraq was avoidable, period.

-hatred that accompanies fundimentalism/literalism is bad!

-the media is NOT liberal! NPR and PBS do tell the truth, they dont spin it they are true journalists). In fact not much in the US is actually left-wing compared to Europe. Some of our "Democrats" are about as conservative as the right wing in Europe.

"The Joe"...great thoughts - I am with you all the way.

Another phenomenal book, as you probably already know, it Politics of Jesus, by John Howard Yoder.

Have you read any Stanley Hauerwas?

MikeC,

Thanks for your comments (these will be my last on the matter). Its not common in this day and age when people on opposite sides of a political (or baseball) issue can talk rationally. I thank you for your comments here - they're thought-provoking, enlightening, and rational. FWIW, i was strongly against entering Iraq when we joined/began this conflictbased on the lack of a strong coalition and the absence of any cohesive, logical argument from the Bush administration (although when i listened to Blair give rationale i was almost convinced). However, despite my reservations about entering Iraq, i'm all for staying now that we are there. In my mind, toppling Sadaam's regime and leaving the country to mutilate itself is amongst the worst things we could have done in the region, and to run back now would, in my mind, be cheap and hearless. When viewed in the context of the present day situaiton in Iraq, and not framed in the grave mistakes our administration made before the war, i am all in favor of staying in the region. Also, regardless of what i think of our commander in chief, i believe the majority of our fighting forces on the ground deserve all the respect in the world for all the good they're doing in Iraq these days... and for that matter, you certainly deserve your pride in The Assassins.

Da Krone--you are a genius.

Lieberthal is NOT Jewish at least by his own defination
His father wa sJewish, he was raised Christian and has specificallys aid that he does not consider himself Jewish and does NOT wish to be listed as a Jewish ballplayer.While
he would still be considered Jewish in say Nazi Germany
I think it fair to respect his own belief on this . Also he
would technically not be considered Jewish under standard Jewish law in which the mother must be Jewish but again
this isa matter of his own beliefs

Tempted as I might be I will resist anymore political
comments as I am certain none of us is going to convince
the other "side" of the wrongheadness of their beliefs. Kind of like religion I guess but being an atheist I am not
too experienced there

Karl: -the media is NOT liberal! NPR and PBS do tell the truth, they dont spin it they are true journalists).

Your ignorance to media bias is astounding.

Jessica, you still haven't answered my question.

if people think CNN is liberal, they would be shocked to learn what real liberals do.

CNN is entertainment tonite and a couple angry old white guys.

lou dobbs, hell...he's a sierra club-style boarder closing flunkie. jack mccathry hates everything.

i suggest you watch 2-3 hours of CNN outside those 2 flunkies and see its just normal, plain, ratings driven human-interest-piece and stories that dont even scratch the surface.

its a real shame to see what passes for mass media news in this country.

but seriously, anyone that considers CNN liberal would probally think real liberals are commies or some fear-laden outdated statement.

wanna know how most liberals get their news...they use the internet to scour the wire feeds and get their news themselves. CNN, Fox, MSNBC are just one big car chase with some old white guys every few hours popping up to tell people why things suck or rule. maybe they have a special guest in to talk for 2 hours about poll numbers or who's gonna be donald trump's new apprentice.

KARLH:
"the media is NOT liberal! NPR and PBS do tell the truth, they dont spin it they are true journalists'

HA HA AHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

For Chad in case you are reading old threads
I would not go so far as to say "some of my best friends
are Republicans" but some of my friends are. For the most
part we simply stopped talking about politics all together in
order to maintain the friendship. It was totally hopeless to
discuss politics as again there was no chance of anyone changing their mind and it lead to a lot of very heated discussions with hurt feelings

I think you are right to the degree that I sincerely find it
incomprehensible ( personally) at this point that
people who had ( among other things) previously supported
the war would not admit error after the two rationals used to go to war ( WMDs & 9/11) were totally discredited.
Trust me I am NOT trying to start something up just honestly answering your question of how I feel and how I deal with friends who feel differently.

Jessica, you have answered my question fully and satifactorily. (SP?) You are not starting anything.

Trans-

I read in an earlier post that you mentioned Thoreau in a group of people interested in withdrawing from the world to avoid its corruption. While Thoreau did indeed do this when it came to taxes and other economic things, you need only read his lecture about John Brown (I forget what the title is... it's usually bound with "Civil Disobedience" and other famous essays) to see what his thoughts on violence were. He deeply admired men who were willing to take up arms against an unjust society in order to bring about justice... in fact, he goes to great lengths to demonstrate his admiration for John Brown's particular form of violent revolt.

All told, I have to say that I'm greatly impressed with the level of intellectual nuance present on this, a sports blog. I think it proves that baseball fans--and Cub fans in particular--are a step above the average Joe when it comes to all things intellectual. It makes me proud.

Marshall:
"I think it proves that baseball fans--and Cub fans in particular--are a step above the average Joe when it comes to all things intellectual."

I think that is a very far reach and a nonsensical associtaion. We would all like to think that, but saying baseball fans and in particular Cubs fans are smarter than the average person is all but unproveable and elitist stereotype.

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