FrËre Jacque, Dormez-Vous?

Free agent right fielder Jacque Jones has signed a $16m/3yr deal with the Cubs. And with that I'm off to bed to dream of just how I'll celebrate in September 2008 when this deal expires. More from me in the morning. Trans To repeat a sentiment that I presume has been expressed somewhere in the flood of comments: The Jacque Jones signing does not solve our outfield situation. Jones is adequate enough against right-handed pitching, hitting to a tune of .268/.348/.466/.814 last year. But he simple cannot be played against left-handed pitching (.201/.247/.370/.617). Find me a cheap corner-OF bat that can mash left-handed pitching in a platoon and we have an adequate right-field plan. Not good, but adequate. Several TCR people are hot about the recently released Jeff DaVanon, whose three-year splits against lefties are .307/.425/.455/.880. To this list of right-handed platoon bats I would add Jose Cruz Jr, Kevin Mench, Craig Monroe, Emil Brown, Dustan Mohr, Eli Marrero and Gabe Kapler. None of them are players I'd want to see collecting 500 ABs for the Cubs in a year, but then again, neither is Jacque Jones. And all of these guys are at a point in their life where they should be content with a platoon job mashing lefties, a skill at which they've all proven capable. Until that happens, I would have rather gone with Corey's greater speed and defense, and his lesser age, salary, and length of contract commitment.
Return to Homepage

Comments

Didn't realize there was a new thread about Jones. Here were my comments from teh other thread:

Well, we can add Jones to the list of players this year that Hendry has overpaid, gave too many years too or gave too many incentives too. Rusch, Neifi, Eyre, Howry, Jones....

We couldn't overpay a few million for a top leadoff man/SS in Furcal, but we could for all these lesser guys?

3 years $16M for Jones....HA HA

And we lost a draft pick because he was offered arbitration. Nothing like getting raked over the coals when you are vulnerable. Congrats to Jones Agent. He desereves his fee for this one.

We just gave $5.33M per year for Jones and John Hill thinks it is fair to offer Lee $7M per year.

D'oh, Manny seconds ahead of me in the race to bitch about Jock Jones. 3 Years? Why? What are the odds we can flip him before the trade deadline? Next offseason?

I'll repeat just for good measure then too...

Manny--"John Hill thinks it is fair to offer Lee $7M per year."

And Manny still hasn't learnt to read things, process them in his head and respond with a coherent and factually correct statement. Either that or you're just so stupid that you think that 43 million divided by 4 comes to 7 million.

I'll repeat as well, and append a little.

This sucks. I'm through. Have good seasons. There's a great collection of devoted writers, minds, and characters here, and it's too bad that this is how we get rewarded.

Here's official word.

Jim Hendry was a total flash in the pan, folks. It's too bad more people didn't realize that earlier, and I hope for the sake of those who plan on sticking around long-term that the Cubs don't see their upcoming 85-win season vindicated as a successful, intelligent way to go about building a winning baseball club.

Manny,

Jones was not overpaid he had simlar deals offered by both Missouri teams. Howry and Erye's deals were also market value. Rusch's deal was under market value and I'll agree with you on Neifi but that deal did price Grudz out of the Cards price range.

Ill repeat for even a clearer measure...

John Hill:
"In 2006, a guaranteed $13m, a $3.5m improvement or so on what heís owed for 2006 under the terms of his current deal. From 2007-09, a guaranteed $7m per year"

Like I said you want Lee to make $7M per year guarenteed, but yet Jones got $5.33.

Hey, don't take it out on me becuase everyone on TCR shot down your totally unrealistic idea.
Posted by: mannytrillo at December 20, 2005 05:32 PM

RON GALT:
"im Hendry was a total flash in the pan, folks. It's too bad more people didn't realize that earlier, and I hope for the sake of those who plan on sticking around long-term that the Cubs don't see their upcoming 85-win season vindicated as a successful, intelligent way to go about building a winning baseball club."

AMEN man!!! There were a few people on here who realized what Hendry was all about. Like you said, too bad we didn't catch on earlier.

I will give props to MIKEC and CUBFAN as I think those are two of earliest Hendry detractors who expressed their points, when we wouldn't listen. Sorry guys...I was wrong about Hendry , you were tight.

FIRE HENDRY!!!

flash in the pan....lol....lets fire the guy who rebuilt our minor league system. lets fire the guy who gave us aram and lee. lets fire the guy cuz he has one of the dumbest managers in baseball(although he did hire him...). you guys are too harsh. the cubs have had a lot of crappy GM's over the years (john holland, jim frey. larry himes) and you want to fire the man who rebuilt the farm system from the dregs to one of the deepest in the majors(yes, thats right...ask baseball america NOT ME-if you are willing to throw out facts and not hogwash then go ahead and critique)....and dont tell me crap like "who have they produced?" the fact is dusty won't play who hendry brings up for him (see jackson, damian, and that crappy infielder they had last year-cant remember his name)

ZONA:
"dusty won't play who hendry brings up for him "

You mean like Choi, Hill, Cruz and Dubois?? :)

Yeh, Manny, and believe it or not, when you get $13m, and you add it to three times $7m, and then you add another $3m, you get $37m. You divide that by 4 and you don't get $7m.

I also later conceded that the money tied to plate appearances might as well be guaranteed. So you're now talking about another $2m for 3 years. Or $6m, because maths isn't your strong point. You add $6m to $37m and you get $43m. And you divide that by 4 and you still don't frigging get $7m.

I'll take it out on you as long as you prove incapable of getting your head around the above.

The "rebuilding of the farm system" seems like nothing more than PR at this point, at least when it comes to position players.

CHifan:
"Jones was not overpaid he had simlar deals offered by both Missouri teams. Howry and Erye's deals were also market value."

Just because they were 'market value' does not make them not be overpaid. But I was not talking more along the lines of years and bonuses and incentives and no trade clauses.

Sorry, you guys really are too much. There was a time when I read and posted to this site quite frequently. Now it is too painful. You people who bellyache nonstop, do you even ENJOY being fans? Watching Corey Patterson drop his shoulder and pop another ball up on the infield is heavenly compared to listening to you people bitch and whine. Sheesh.

so how long before the right field bleacher bums learn the phrase "Jacque-Strap"

John Hill's DLee proposal may have been silly and unrealistic, but Manny Trillo sure comes off as an idiot trying to prove it as such.

John Hill-
By the time you would of taken the first offer off the table, Lee and his agent wouldn't of even been returning your calls to listen to your new offer.

Sorry man, like almost every other poster said, it was not a realistic offer.

Bleeding Blue:
"so how long before the right field bleacher bums learn the phrase "Jacque-Strap""

HA HA

Instead of throwing O'Henry bars at Henry Rodriquez, Bleacher Bums will be running to their nearest sporting goods store to buy Jacque-straps to throw at Jones.

Amen, Wonka.

This is sheer madness... unbelievable.

The only people that like this signing are Jones, Dusty, and Lee--who is going to CLEAN UP come contract time.

Of course the Cubs rediculous contracts will make it difficult to resign Lee, so it's all academic.

Any chance the Cubs are getting ready to ship off Pie, Cedeno and Kerry Wood to the O's for Miggy? Would it take more than that to get him? Would you guys do that?

Manny, John Hill is right and you are still wrong. $43 million/4 years is not $7 million per year. How can you arbitrarily ignore the most lucrative year of the contract when evaluating the deal?

On the other hand, I kind of like this way of looking at things. So, in 2005 the Cubs were 79-0 (putting aside the losses), my net worth is stunning (putting aside my mortgage) and Charlize Theron is my girlfriend (putting aside the fact that we have never met).

The fact that John's creative idea was so widely dismissed on TCR says more about the critics than it does about John. An $11 million/year Lee deal that (a) kicks in immediately and (b) doesn't require a repeat of 2005 to kick in would (and should) be considered by Lee.

Cerdy:
"John Hill's DLee proposal may have been silly and unrealistic"

Thanks...

And oh yeah, go back and reread that thread and see how many others were trying to prove it to be 'silly and unrealistic'. Try calling everyone out next time. ;)

433-
"$43 million/4 years is not $7 million per year."

That is correct, but his first proposal, before he changed it due to it getting ripped to shreads, had Lee getting only $7 million guarenteed for 3 straight years. He will most likely get double that base salary.

Either way, John Hill, your contract extension idea to Derrek Lee is crazy. It's not that it's "in depth" or "tricky" or whatever catch phrase you used to describe it. It's just plain dumb to even think that Derrek Lee would sign his name to such a deal. Go ahead. Talk to Hendry and get him to present that contract to Lee and i'll be rooting for him here as a Yankees fan in 2007. Lee could get $43 million over 4 years if he has a typical Derrek Lee season in 2006. Actually, he'd get more. Didn't you see what Konerko just got? That's what Lee is going to be shooting for. You can try to peddle this nonsense off as you are sitting around putting your brain to work to come up with that craziness, but please, no knowledgeable baseball fan is going to think your idea of a contract offer to Lee is in any way acceptable.

Once you come up with a minimum guaranteed offer of 5 years and $60 million then tell all your Cubs fans buddies about it. Anything less than that is a punch in Derrek Lee's face.

its just j.jones...its not the end of the world.

hell, its 5% of the payroll and he can field and play CF if needed in 07+.

maybe t.walker gets to stick around now.

i dont think anyone was expecting anything but a 25+hr guy who can field anyway...most people were expecting 1-2 years, not 3...but its not a bad gamble for a guy who can play 3 possitions in the OF.

now hendry can work on who gets what contract extention...i'd expect a 3 year deal to zambrano to happen any week now.

This is an absolute Joque.

Manny, most of the time you amuse me, but there are times that I can't ignore the bait. I'd like everyone to go to Manny's post #1 above and read his last sentence. It's just an obnoxious, unsolicited, gratuitous out-of-context attack. Posts like these, Manny, are one of the two reasons why you aren't taken seriously on this board.

The other reason is your blind love for Dusty. This is your right, of course; while it's sad, it is kind of quaint. But over the winter you have taken it to a new level: at every turn, you go out of your way to blame Hendry for all bad things that happen to the Cubs. It's a transparent attempt at deflecting criticism of Dusty.

I'm genuinely curious why you love Dusty so much. Are you him?

"An $11 million/year Lee deal that (a) kicks in immediately and (b) doesn't require a repeat of 2005 to kick in would (and should) be considered by Lee."

It wouldn't be. Maybe it should, but the economics of the game make that unrealistic. Paul Konerko, inferior to Lee is every way just got more than that guaranteed. Much worse players get much more.

If the Cubs plan to do something like this, Lee will be in Boston, NY (either one), LA (either one) or Baltimore. He will go to some team that wants to pay players what they are worth.

Lee will not have to even consider a sub-market deal. He will be the hottest FA on the market next year.

I don't know about anyone else, but check out Jones' numbers the last two years. I'd wager a hundred bucks Corey Patterson, bad as he is, would equal them if he played on a daily basis next year. And Corey's faster and would steal more bases. And Corey's cheaper.

What a waste of money. How does Hendry even begin to think this is a good move?

This isn't the worst deal, but I would be hitting Todd Walker 5th instead of J. Jones (unless JJ gets back to form).

The only problem is that we are screwed when ARam goes down with his annual stretch-run quad/hammy problems.

for those not "into" it...texas shifting sledge pretty much put a nail into getting anyone from them anywhere near reasonable in trade it would seem. TB still wants the world for their 1/2assed castoffs (gaithright/huff).

what else was there aside from encarcenon/r.sanders/etc?

its not like there was a flush RF FA market that was flatty avoided and 5.3m a year for jones honestly isnt that bad of a deal for a CF/RF with a good arm who's not on the ass end of his career.

seriously...and save the dusty/hendry hate and just think about this...was anyone expecting anything else than a decent fielding 25+HR guy anyway? hell, at least he's not almost 40 or damaged goods.

there just wasnt a flush RF FA market unless someone wanted to give b.giles 11-12m for 3+ years.

crunch-
but now if Pierre gets his long term contract like Hendry said he will. Where is Pie going to play?? Where is Patterson going to play?? We will have Murton, Pierre and Jones all siigned long term. A one year deal would of made sense, but 3 years?? i just don't understand.

this is pretty damn bad. i pretty much assumed that hendry had one more surprise big deal up his sleeve, whether it was abreu, tejada, dunn, at least huff, somebody who was, you know, good at hitting.

this team is not better than last year's on offense.

i cannot believe that hendry ends up with this in the year that he will in all likelihood be gone if the cubs miss the playoffs.

the good news is that dusty will be gone after this year

this is an 80-85 win team. i'm pretty damn disappointed, and hope that in 20 years i'm not looking back saying "how did we only win one playoff series with prior and zambrano basically pitching for free?!?!?"

not only that, but we're left with quite a few potentially bloated, but not fatal, contracts for 2007. jones is one of those.

damnit.

Manny,

Rotoworld said this of the deal "All in all, he's worth $5 million per year." They did not like the deal either. Like I have said Jones is a great role player, but we needed a 5 hitter not a 7th hitter. If Soriano or Tejada come here this is not a bad deal if it is the last deal for the lineup than it is.

What's wrong with depth? We can still trade Patterson, Pie, Murton...or Pierre, Jones later on. Pie will get a chance to play if and when he's good enough.

X,

If Lee has a 2006 like 2005, then of course he will be the hottest FA on the market. But if he slips back to his usual performance (which is very good, by the way), he may very well find himself with a 4/$44 offer or something like it. And in that case he would have been better off to accelerate his payday by signing a deal before 2006 as John suggested.

(Konerko just carried his team to a WS title, so he's not an apples-to-apples comparison; he got a Beltran Premium.)

Lee has to ask himself the following question: is it more likely that in 2006 I will have an average career season (for me) or a repeat of 2005? If the answer is the former, then he would be wise to consider an extension now. If it's the latter, then of course he should wait it out and hit the jackpot. But that's a hell of a gamble.

#24 of 24: By Cubs Suck (December 20, 2005 06:04 PM)

-Wouldn't peddle that name around here!

Well, DLee will probably get 14-16mil for 4/5yrs. But, there will be enough money in 2006 to get him back. Next year we will be free of Maddux's
contract, I would expect the Cubs to have 20-30mil again next year in spending money. Hendry will not let Lee slip through his fingers!

Well we have almost the same line-up as we did last year (exception-Pierre). It is obvious that Hendry could not swing a deal for Huff, Mench, etc; that means that we have NO power in the outfield!

Pierre-CF
Walker-2B
Lee-1B
Ramirez-3B
Jones-RF
Barrett-C
Murton-LF
Cedeno(i mean, Neifi)-SS

This is not a bad line-up, but it is neither getting us 90 wins nor a World Series.

I hope Hendry is Getting another SP because the Cubs are 3rd place with out one.

433:
"I'm genuinely curious why you love Dusty so much. Are you him?"

Yes...u got me. :)

pie? pie's not ready. and if he is murton in trade can get this team anything it needs if he is the real deal...or pie can do that. the team is not commited to anything here.

patterson gonna play? uh..bench if he's a cub. not much has changed there the past many weeks.

"Where is Pie going to play??"

Baltimore I hope.

Just watch. At some point next year we're going to have: Neifi Perez and his sub .300 OBP, Corey Patterson and his sub .300 OBP (after Murton hits "only" .285 and makes one bad play in the field) and Jaque Jones and his whopping .319 OBP all in the lineup on the same day. Why not just forfiet and save the wear and tear on that day's starter's arm?

Neifi will not be starting next year...unless there are injuries. But, hey, that's the point of a bench player.

How is Jacques Jones better than CPat or how is he an improvement over Jeromy Burnitz? Now thats what I would like to read on TCR!

Jeromy had more money coming to him and is old. Corey sucks.

That's how Jones is better.

I am so glad we replaced a guy that hits .220 an tons of K's and no walks, with a guy that hits .250 with tons of K's and no walks. Huge improvement.... well worth the approx. $2.5 increase in salary between Kpat and Kjones. Our outfield is now way to French to win anything, maybe they will just surrender. Can we get Dubois back to play left?

Thanks for the Xmas present, Hendy...did you keep the recipt?

Are positive comments allowed on this site? I just want to make sure that if I utter a positive word I won't have an angry mob with torches and pitch forks outside my front door. This question is directed at the Cub Nation bashers out there: who would consititute your ideal lineup? Who? No one is saying that Pierre, Jones, Eyre, and Howry and everyone else you guys hate are world saviors. Personally, I don't see a lot of world saviors out there who are available. All right? Who in the hell do you people want?

I like Johnny Damon too, but I would not be willing to offer him $110 million, the sun, moon and stars over 8 years like Boras wants. I like Tejada...but I'm not going to trade Todd Walker, Kerry Wood, and our entire farm system to get him. As far as "name" players go, did anyone in their right mind pick the White Sox to win the World Series last year? They didn't win because they went out and signed a team full of superstars. They won because they had the right attitude from top to bottom throughout their entire organization. You think their players were calling the press box during games bitching about stuff Hawk Harrelson was saying on the air?

The Cubs' problem over the last few years has not been a lack of talent or the lack of potential stars. The bottom line is there is a certain attitude, a pride and determination that exists in places like New York, Boston, Atlanta, St. Louis, and in recent years Anaheim, and yes, on the South Side. A $150 million payroll is not going to get us a world championship. It's the simple attitude that "We are winners, we can do this." Until we have that, no trade or free agent signing in the world will get us where we want to go. OK, I'll get off my soapbox now, but that's the truth.

From ESPN.com: Twins right fielder Jacque Jones declined arbitration with the club, then agreed to a deal to play for the Chicago Cubs on Tuesday.

No financial details available.

He led the team with 23 home runs last season and hit .249 with 73 RBI. †He also has no plate patience and strikes out with the best of 'em.

I will now sit back and wait for Al's positive spin. I've been a Cubs fan for nearly 40 years through thick and thin, mostly thin. But for a lot of reasons, mainly that this team has the resources but not the organizational philosophy to win, the Cubs are losing me.

Barring a Hendry rabbit, I will enter 2006 without a grain of optimism or enthusiasm, though I remain a diehard baseball fan in general. I think Hendry has sealed his fate and like Baker will be out of the organization within a year.

John Hill -
"And Manny still hasn't learnt to read things, process them in his head and respond with a coherent and factually correct statement. Either that or you're just so stupid that you think that 43 million divided by 4 comes to 7 million."
-
Tough call, but I'm gonna go with the first option.
He could OF done his math wrong, though.

The French are cowards cause they don't solve all of their problems by dropping bombs on people? Hmm. Interesting. Good to know.

Just thought I'd mention another thing about the lineup (as obvious as it is):

We dont have NOMAR!!!!!!

I hope that Hendry has some amazing use for Patterson now (please trade)! I hope that he gets a SS with (kpatt, Cedeno, Hill,[insert prospect here])

.250??? Come on!!! If you are going to make an argument, make sure it is correct. Jones is a career .280 hitter and has much better plate discipline then Burnitz. He had injuries towrds the end of the year that made his average drop. He was hitting in the .300's for the majority of the year.

"But, there will be enough money in 2006 to get him back. "

We heard that about this year and signing top FAs.

"Next year we will be free of Maddux's
contract"

And free of our #3 pitcher. So we will have to spend probably more money than Maddux makes to replace him with a #3 starter.

"I would expect the Cubs to have 20-30mil again next year in spending money. "

Lot of good it did us this year...

"Hendry will not let Lee slip through his fingers!"

Yeah,the Cubs never let great players leave because they don't want to pay them...

"Yeah,the Cubs never let great players leave because they don't want to pay them..."

Name one great player (dont nomar me!)that HENDRY has let go!

Just to be sure...Jones was .249/.319/.438 last year, .254/.315/.427 the year before, and is a career .227/.277/.339 vs lefties...

And we paid him 5mm+ per for 3 years.

That's an indictment of our farm system, our failure to plan, and Hendry's ability to manage a roster - OBVIOUSLY.

THE JOE...

No the French don't drop bombs on people to solve problems. They just quietly help out Nazi Germany to kill millions.

"Name one great player (dont nomar me!)that HENDRY has let go!"

The Cubs aren't owned by Hendry. They aren't funded by Hendry. Hendry doesn't have final say. Any significant deal he makes is approved by someone else. The fact that Hendry has not had too many FAs who were great players doesn't mitigate this franchise's history.

Lee is going to get no fewer than 5 years, and no less than 13mm per, unless he chooses to take fewer years and MORE money (like Furcal did), or more years and less money. I see no reason to believe

The statment was made that Hendry won't let Lee slip through his fingers. History says that there is a good chance that he does. The odds are strong that Angelos, Steinbrenner, Wilpon, Moreno, McGowan, etc. will pony up where the Tribune will not. It's the sad truth. I can't believe this is an arguement - that there is a good chance that someone pays much more than the Trib would be willing to for Lee.

Jacques Jones- yippee frickin' skippy. Hendry a flash in the pan- absolutely. Let's not get too down on Jones- he does have that all important first to third speed all championship organizations covet. That will take us to the promise land. Way to go Hendry- you suck.

How many draft picks have we now surrendered for mid-tier (at best) players?

1 for Jones for sure... 1 for Eyre I think. That's it - right? Our first and second round picks for Jones and Eyre? GMAFB...

Matt--

A. Jones has hovered around .250 for the last two years, with a crappy OBP.

B. Burnitz, in his prime, was drawing up around a hundred walks a year for Milwaukee. His career OBP is 21 points higher than Jones, and his power potential is greater.

C. Neither A nor B matters, since neither Burnitz nor Jones is good enough to make a difference for the Cubs.

Combined, our outfield will hit 30 homeruns next year and drive in about 170. Manny Ramirez alone will hit 45 and drive in 140. That's just sad.

X-
I don't think the Cubs had a 1st round pick this year, can't remember why. But we gave up 3 picks (2nd, 3rd, 4th round picks) for Eyre, Howry and now Jones, if I am not mistaken. I am sure I will be corrected if I am . :)

Jones is an average player making an average salary. Nothing to get excited or depressed about. At the moment, the Cubs are at or above average at every position except the one Neifi plays.

X-
let's not get too pessimistic (yet). The Trib did come up with big cash for Sammy's contract extention in 2001.
I have to believe that they'll do the same for DLee -(unless he sets up a boom box behind first base).

Matt, are you Jacques Jones?

I project you for 22 homers, 60 rbi's, 263 Ave., 310 Obp, 20 doubles, 14 SB's, and 138 K's with 30 BB's.

Jacque Jones, are you K-orey Patterson?

Well offensively our lineup is pretty much what the White sox had last year. The only difference is most of their starting rotation stayed healthy for a year...

Karl H,

At the time of WWII France had the best millitary in the world. They used the same border defenses aganist the Germans that did not in WWI in WWII and in two weeks they were taken over by the Nazi in just two weeks, The same as Poland who had one of the worst millitary's at the time. France at the time was one of the most anti-semetic nations in Europe and some historians have speculated the same thing as McPhail said.

Champ - I agree with your statement. But there is a difference. Fans, from all over the world, came to see Sammy. He was a show all by himself. Lee is not. He's not a me me me guy. He doesn't need to be the center of attention. He just hits, fields and runs. He's a totally different guy than Sosa. Lee is a better teammate, Sosa drew more fans. A sub .500 cubs team with Sosa would still draw. A sub .500 Lee lead team might not draw quite so much. I believe the Trib valued Sosa's ability to draw fans moreso than his ability to contribute on the field.

Manny,

Actually, you can't not have a 1st round pick before the year. You can't trade picks. I think we still have our first, and we give up a 2nd and a 3rd for Jones and Eyre. The first is protected because it is in the top 15 and I am not sure if Howry was ranked high enough by BA that we have to give up a pick.

Anyone out there who knows for sure?

Which is exactly why the best opportunity to re-sign Lee is NOW, before there are any other suitors. Give him a nice signing bonus (say $6 million) for the holidays, throw a nice offer on the table and let him relax and play without distractions in 2006.

Justinh:

"Combined, our outfield will hit 30 homeruns next year and drive in about 170. Manny Ramirez alone will hit 45 and drive in 140. That's just sad."

So thats zero HR for Pierre, 23 for Jones, and 7 for Murton? Why is everyone so convinced Murton has no power? Sure he only hit 7HRs in 140 ABs last year, so he definitely wont hit more that 7 in 2006.

Pierre hit 2 dingers last year anyway, so might want to make it 32 HRs.

the sky is not falling people.

i have two words for the french.
maginot effing line.

Well then maybe we could secretly put some cork in Lee's bat....

I see your point. At the same time though, you saw how crazy the sox fans became when Konerko's status was uncertain. I kind of see him as the same personality as Lee. Some fans do cheer for teamwork and want to see it rewarded. Lets hope that they all dont watch baseball on the south side.

If Murton gets 500-600 ABs he'll hit at least 20 HRs...maybe 25. It seems the O's might non-tender Eric Byrnes tonight so how about him as a cheap righty alternative? He was hurt and traded(twice) last season, but in 2004 where he played most everyday in OAK was .344/.406/.599 in a pitcher's park against lefties. He can play LF/RF good range and decent speed and is a Ryan Freel balls out type player....plus it would mean that Macias won't be back!

just one thing--
Holly-Patterson-Burnitz

or

Murton-Pierre-Jones?

The other day there was a raging debate about whether or not you can consider yourself a stathead (or whatever monkier you want to call it) and still believe in clutch. I think you can, and I think another important element of a player that can't be quantified is hustle. Teams that hustle do better - there's no fact to prove it, but common knowledge would dictate that the harder you play, the more likely it is that you'll succeed.

Jacque Jones hustles. Juan Pierre hustles. They don't have the numbers to stand up to the Abreus and Damons of the world, but they're good players who want to win, and they will make the 2006 Cubs a better team for it. I'm not ready to give up on the Cubs because of Jacque Jones.

so...who would the cubs have signed that would keep you people from complaining?

r.sanders? oh...he's too old...there's 100 posts there.

encarcenon? oh...he's not at all what the team needs and bats righty and etc.

blah blah blah? oh..he's blah blah blah.

face it...when giles spurned a 3yr/33m offer from toronto to stay in SD for 10m a year there went the RF market, period.

he's not even trash...he's not the power fixture...he's just a stupid role player getting 5m a year which is a whole lotta nothing worth mentioning for a guy his age who can play CF/RF.

5:
"just one thing--
Holly-Patterson-Burnitz

or

Murton-Pierre-Jones?"

For a team with $100 million payroll, it should be neither. But you are also comparing this OF to teh worst OF maybe in the history of the Cubs. So it couldn't get much worse.

crunch-
that is not the point. For a team that has a $100M payroll, it shouldn't come down to jones vs sanders vs. encenarcion. It is an overall thing where this team should be better players than what we have for $100 million.

manny, that is the point.

cuz that's what's there.

go pull a magic RF out your ass if you have one to suggest.

I think the question about this signing -- and all of Hendry's signings this off-season has been what else could have been done instead of the moves he made?

(2006 figures)

Ryan Dempster - $5m + $1.5m in incentive bonuses
Scott Eyre - $3m + $800,000 in performance bonuses
Bobby Howry - $4m
Neifi Perez - $2.5m + $500,000 in incentives based on PAs
Jacque Jones - $5m
Juan Pierre - $5-6m

for a combined $27-28 million, plus losing prospects.

Is this optimal? Obviously not. Are there better gambles out there that Hendry should be taking? For the relief pitching, I'd say yes. For the CF, I'd say Patterson was the better choice. For the RF Jones at .250/.320 and 25 bombs is slightly better than replacement level talent. As someone very perceptively wrote, this is poor planning. This is the problem of building through free agency: when you want a top of the line, slugging LF, and there's not a top of the line, slugging outfielder to spend $11 million dollars on, you're stuck.

Career stats:

Player A .279 .327 .455 .782
Player B .255 .348 .485 .832
Player C .272 .334 .469 .803

Player A is Jacque Jones. Player B is Jeromy Burnitz. Player C is Jermaine Dye.

I don't mean to be ignorant or reductive; I know that career averages can be deceptive and that a lot more than that goes into a player's worth and desirability. But I also remember the Burnitzalypse that wasn't, i.e., 2005 sucked but it wasn't (entirely) his fault.

I allowed myself some nice thoughts about Brian Giles. That ended. I entertained the distant possiblity of Bobby Abreu. That was a fantasy. I sent brain waves to Shawn Green telling him to waive his limited no-trade clause to allow a Cubs trade. Stupid brain waves.

In post #7 of the last thread, Chifan3887 wrote: "Jacque Jones is a cub according to Levine. He says that Hendry is not finished with the OF".

If Levine is to be believed about Hendry NOT being finished with the OF (and I understand that believing Levine may not be wise), what are the possible scenarios? I see 3, since I can't imagine any scenario for CF except Pierre every day:

1) Yet-to-be-acquired platoon partner for Jones in either LF or RF.
2) Yet-to-be-acquired LF not named Matt Murton.
3) 1 and 2 combined where Murton and Jones ARE the platoon partners in either LF or RF.

It seems to me that it is not written in stone with the Cubs mgmt that Murton will be the everyday LF even though it seems a foregone conclusion here on TCR. Also not set in stone that Jones is ONLY a RF. With a Murton/Jones platoon or with Murton as the 4th OF, Dusty gets to still prefer vets over kids and Murton gets to continue to be broken in slowly. Not saying this is how I'd do it, just trying to figure out what is most likely to happen.

*The French are cowards cause they don't solve all of their problems by dropping bombs on people? Hmm. Interesting. Good to know.*

The French are cowards because the only "people" they drop bombs on are Ivorians and Greenpeace ships.

Crunch-
What about last year? The RF thing could of been solved anytime after 2004 when the Cubs were set with getting rid of Sosa. The settled with Burnitz last year and now Jones for teh next 3 years. SAD!!!

teams that need a RF are in dire need this offseason...people that need 2nd basemen, too.

its a bad offseason to need either. no one's trading any of them of value without giving up something pretty big. so far there's been a FA RF'r turning down 11m a year to play for 10m a year at home, and this is a mid30s guy who hit 15 homers last year. the others came in a trade for a.soriano.

someone will probally, eventually, pry a RF away from someone who's holding those chips...right now no hot leads are out there...cleveland/stl sure havent given up.

X,
Most of your posts really bug me because they are so negative.

"We heard that [there will be a lot of money] about this year and signing top FAs."

See, the thing is, we also heard ad nauseum that this year's FA crop was unspectacular, and it was. All years are not created equal.

"And free of our #3 pitcher. So we will have to spend probably more money than Maddux makes to replace him with a #3 starter."

First of all, Kerry Wood is our #3. If Maddux becomes our #3, it will be due to injury, not because he is the third-best pitcher we have. Wood does have a bad history, but that doesn't mean he'll miss significant time this year.

Second, Jerome Williams doesn't cost $9mm. Neither does Glendon. In fact, I don't think Rich Hill or Angel Guzman will cost $9mm either. Do fourth or fifth starters cost that much? Now if we're replacing Kerry Wood, that's a different story.

Yes, Jacque Jones is not that great, but really this team needs a healthy rotation to succeed. All this hand wringing over Hendry being stupid or ill-prepared is nonsense, 'cause we have no idea what goes into running a baseball team. Who knows what deals are in the works, what was offered and what was rejected? I believe this team has just enough offense to be competitive with the pitching we have.

Half of our position player starters are brand new (sort of) coming off of 2005. It's a different team in 2006--let's give them at least until April 20th to write them off.

If Hendry gets a check right handed bat to platoon with Jones (and it better not be Murton) then this won't be that bad. It will upgrade the defense, and is really comparible to any other free agent outfielder available.

5 Million a year is a market rate, and while 3 years is more than I'd like, his contract won't make him impossible to trade.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter who plays the OF, the Cubs 2006 season is going to come down to three things: Zambrano, Prior, and Wood.

manny...

1- this isnt last year, its this year
2- sosa? burnitz WAS the marquee FA at the time sosa left.

The RF thing could of been solved anytime after 2004 when the Cubs were set with getting rid of Sosa. The settled with Burnitz last year and now Jones for teh next 3 years. SAD!!!

So who should Hendry have gotten instead?

*France was a member of the Allies! You realize they were invaded in 1940, it was under Nazi control!*

Learn your history. Half of France was under control of the Nazis, the other half gleefully collaborated with the Nazis. Go sit through the Sorrow and the Pity if you can gather the attention span.

*Before you make such false accusations,*

Again, go read some history books.

* realize that the the US would not exist had it not been for the help of France.*

Lame-ass old canard. The French assisted us over 200 years ago to spite the British. They were basically at war with us 10 years later and have done nothing for us since but drag us into two World Wars and Vietnam and hinder our every attempt to make the modern world a better place. Their colonial bungling in the Middle East (along with Britain) left the world with its most crippling problem, too.

Thanks for playing.

is it lost that j.jones is getting 5m a year...its not like this in an anchor contract that will drag this team into a financial burden where dumping him will put the team off competitiveness for a year or 2.

yeah, everyone would like to see s.green or whatever out in RF, but that's just not an option evidently.

yeah, mench would rock..wilkerson...whatever...but also, not an option. anyone realize that this deal got sprung REALLY quickly after texas made its trade for eaton?

even if he does suck ass his contract and situation is neither damning or immovable.

Crunch:
"1- this isnt last year, its this year"

And if Hendry addressed this need better in past year(s), then it wouldn't be an issue this year. Like a poster said just a while ago in this thread, it is poor planning.

Just on WSCR...

Johnny Damon may be signing with the Evil Empire!

Jesus hates the yankees!

Bleeding Blue:
"So who should Hendry have gotten instead?"

Not who he got, that is for sure. I don't know who was availibe via trade and or FA that wanted to come to CHicago, but if this is the ebst we could do witha $100 million payroll, it is poretty sad in my opinion.

What do people think of this deal if we go out and get another RF'er to platoon with Jones? Someone like, say, Craig Wilson. Wilson has mashed southpaws his whole career (has a .988 OPS vs. Lefties over the last 3 years), is only making $3 mil next season, can back up D-Lee at 1st base, and can even catch in a pinch. This has the added benefit of keeping Macias further from the roster. A Jones/Wilson platoon would look nice... Heck, if we could sign Preston Wilson to a moderately sized contract, that Jones/Wilson platoon would also be nice.

The problem with the latter Wilson would be he would probably start everyday, dude. And Murton would platoon with Jones, so he could ease his way in, dude.

You Hendry bashers are insane.

Jim Hendry is the number one reason why the Cubs have become contenders instead of perennial losers. That is an undeniable fact.

Regarding this offseason, what would YOU have done differently? What is your ideal offseason? You say you could do better than Hendry, prove it.

For those saying this isn't a championship line-up:

Pierre
Jones
Lee
ARam
Walker
Barrett
Murton
Neifi/Cedeno

Remember just a couple years ago the Cubs did quite well starting the year with:

Grudz
AGonz
Sosa
Alou
Choi
Bellhorn
Patterson
Miller

Alright X you've got me stumped.

Which premier free agent have the Cubs ever lost because they didn't offer enough money? I can't think of one.

As far as Jones- I think a platoon of him and Perez will be better than the crap available, with the exception of Abreu - who I wouldn't trade Prior or Z for.

Not who he got, that is for sure. I don't know who was availibe via trade and or FA that wanted to come to CHicago, but if this is the ebst we could do witha $100 million payroll, it is poretty sad in my opinion.

come on, put up or shut up.

If you want to bash Hendry, go right ahead, but at least be man enough to say WHAT he should do differently.

(note when I bash Dusty, I can always tell you what he should do differently)

If you can't name names, then you probably wouldn't have done any better.

Tim:
"You say you could do better than Hendry, prove it."

HA HA

WE are not the GM of the Cubs. WE are not privy to info that would give us the oppurtunity to do better. WE are fans and have every right to bash the GM or as many on here do, bash the manager. It is like our jobs as fans to do so. :)

The Real Neal-
The list is probably endless (Furcal, Hampton, etc) but I think he was thinking of GREG MADDUX, when he left us for ATL.

You are talking about Vichey France! (did not include Paris)

I guess the austrians and slovaks are horrible too.

The french were not at war with us after the Am. Rev. (they were on the verge of Revolution themselves)

-many French Philosophes' ideas are very important to our independence and our constitution (Voltaire, Rousseau, montesquieu, etc.)

dont bash the French, they lived by Germany! They had a resistance! They had all of their fight taken out of them between 1066-1918. They have 700 more years of history than we do! I think that the ability to resist war is quite admireable compared to our shawk and awe blow 'em senseless mindset!

Bleeding Blue:
"If you can't name names, then you probably wouldn't have done any better."

I never claimed I could do better. But I think there are many GM's that could do better than Hendry. And hopefully we will get to see that after this year.

Why don't you call out others who are bashing Hendry on this thread. i know you like jsut calling me out to meet your agendas, but be fair and call X, Ron Galt and others who are saying similar things.

Manny,

You're probably to young to remember, but Maddux tried to accept the Cubs' contract offer.

When I say 'lost' I mean players who left the Cubs, not players the Cubs wanted. Last time I checked you can't lose something you never had.

Re: #97: I would like to place an order for one 2004-model Craig Wilson please. I would accept a 2005 model but please repair any and all defects prior to shipping.

Sorry, he's my irrational crush, and I like the Jones/Wilson platoon idea. Last year *really* soured me on platoons but that's a lot better than Holly/Dubois (duh).

Just to be on the safe side, I blame Jim Hendry for everything between the Louisiana Purchase and Vichy France.

Here's my take:

Obviously Hendry is unwilling to trade Pie, Guzman, Cedeno or Hill. Obviously Hendry felt that Aburey Huff or Kevin Mench weren't worth trading the guys it would take to get them.

For those of you thinking that Cpat could produce as much as Jones, dream on. Cpat is mentally done, as the Cubs are mentally done with him.

Burnitz was not a better option. Huff is a steriod suspect and apparently the Rays wanted too much.

The options were not too attractive. For those of you bitching about the the 3 yr deal, give it up. It was 3 yrs or he signs with someone else.

I'm not giving Henry blind faith. I have my concerns and I'm disappointed. I can't help but think, however, that by June of 06 we'll see a Lf platoon of Murton/Jones and a rightfielder of Felix Pie.

I do remember a team in 1979 managed by Earl Weaver. He had John Lowenstein/Gary Roenicke in left and it worked perfectly. Lowenstein had speed, Roenicke power.

For this to work, he has to platoon.

Come on Manny, stop cowaring behind lame excuses like "WE are not privy to info that would give us the oppurtunity to do better."

Since Hendry should have easily been able to do better, it should be easy to name names.

and since you're saying other GMs would do better, then how about this:

What other GM has done a better job filling RF in the past 2 years. There's been plenty of vacancies, so lets hear some names of GMs who have done better?

Bleeding Blue-
Go ask X, Ron Galt and others who feel the same as me the same question. Maybe they will answer you.

BYE BYE HENDRY!!!

AP reports Damon to Yanks: 4yrs./$52M

I think he can get a haircut and a shave for that.

KarlH - I get this confused but you do know that half of France was the resistance part and the other half basically handed over the country to the Germans? I think it was the South of France that was sympathetic to the Germans. I forget which it was North or South.

Anyways, I am strangely peaceful with the Jaque Jones signing. But I am not satisfied with it. I guess I am in a weird quandry. Adding Pierre's 50 RBI and Jones 70 isn't that much of an improvement when you lost Burnitz's 87 RBI. I sure hope Lee and Ramirez don't get injured because we will really be struggling to score some runs. And I am in no way wishing Burnitz was back. I don't even like the fact Burnitz played for us.

My feeling is the offense is still not up to par. Juan Pierre is nice but he is the type of player that is icing on the cake, not your #1 piece to upgrade the offense. I labeled Brian Giles or bust for this organization. I knew it was a long shot but I would of liked the Cubs to atleast give it the college try. They didn't even express one ounce of interest in him. We are still in dire need of a big bat, and until we get that we are a sub-par offensive team unless Cedeno and Murton put up some awesome numbers.

Defensively we should be much better in the OF. They might not throw out guys but Murton, Pierre, Jones will run down balls in the gaps and for most part play some pretty good D. We as fans are going to like watching those guys roam the OF after watching the Hairston side show, Holly no legs and no arm, and the lumbering Burnitz.

I have a feeling you guys are going to like watching Jaque Jones play. He is always going to bust his ass.

"AP reports Damon to Yanks: 4yrs./$52M"

Another example why Lee will get around $15M per year GUARENTEED in Free Agency.

"AP reports Damon to Yanks: 4yrs./$52M"

Remember when I said Damon would get 60/4 in July and everyone laughed looks like I was not to far off.

I forgot my observations of DOOM!

The Cubs are notorious for not letting money go to waste. You can't sign X player because your already paying X amount of dollars to this player to play the position. So the Jaque Jones signing means he will be a Cub for the next 3 years, for better or for worse. Which means if Murton turns out good along with Pierre the Cubs will not pursue a RFer for this team. To me that sounds kind of bad.

The Cubs paid $5.3 million a year for Jones. It is overpaying, plain and simple. Yet the Cubs didn't want to overpay for Furcal. Again the Cubs prove that they have never met an average or below average player they can't overpay for. The Cubs will throw money at marginal players but let the guys that are the best at their position fall by the wayside.

Finally, with Jones supposed speed Dusty will likely make him the teams #2 hitter. This is all based on the Alex Gonzalez/Rey Ordonez/Neifi Perez/Corey Patterson theory, that if you put a lousy hitter in the #2 slot they will have more fastballs to hit and be a better player. It hasn't worked in 3 years and it won't work again this year. I am perfectly happy with Jones hitting 7th, anything higher and I will get violently ill.

re: #114

So missing by $8 million is close?

1. Pierre -CF
2. Murton -LF
3. Lee -1B
4. A.Ram -3B
5. Walker -2B
6. Barrett -C
7. J.Jones -RF
8. Cedeno -SS

We need a bigger bat in the middle plain and simple. On the other hand if Wood, Zambrano, Prior, Maddox all have career years and SUB 3.00 ERAS, CUBS WIN!!!!! CUBS WIN!!!!

Mike C,

You're right. If Jones bat's 2nd between Pierre and Lee he probably won't see any better pitches than he did with Lew Ford protecting him last year.

Everyone CALM DOWN.

1. Our outfield is twice as good as last year's AT LEAST!

2. $5mil/yr is NOT overpaying for Jones in today's market.

3. Barring a trade there was NO ONE better available.

4. If Hendry lands Millwood I will be very happy with this offseason. We need another starter more than anything else. Be upset if our rotation is the same as last year's.

5. You can now go back to your premature hysteria.

Everyone CALM DOWN.

1. Our outfield is twice as good as last year's AT LEAST!

2. $5mil/yr is NOT overpaying for Jones in today's market.

3. Barring a trade there was NO ONE better available.

4. If Hendry lands Millwood I will be very happy with this offseason. We need another starter more than anything else. Be upset if our rotation is the same as last year's.

5. You can now go back to your premature hysteria.

You people suck. Calm the hell down....

I don't post much, but read alot...and I have no desire to read here for a while since all you are doing is bitching at each other.

I"ll be back in a few months.

Jones career vs Righties
.294/.341/.488/.830

RISP
.281/.344/.476/.820 - career
.275/.367/.514/.881 - 2005
.272/.375/.559/.934 - 2004

SuperJimmer,

Everyone one else thought for the most part thought 44/4 was what he was going to get and a few said 48/4. If we didn't get Pierre the bidding for Damon would have reached 60/4.

"A sub .500 Lee lead team might not draw quite so much. I believe the Trib valued Sosa's ability to draw fans moreso than his ability to contribute on the field." -X

X,
In case you forgot, Lee was with a sub .500 team last year and I believe the Cubs broke the attendance record once again.

Go ask X, Ron Galt and others who feel the same as me the same question. Maybe they will answer you.

BYE BYE HENDRY!!!

when they start rewriting history to make Hendry a scapegoat for Dusty's failings, I'll probably giving them a harder time too.

Like I said, if you're going to whine and bitch about how bad Hendry is and how it should have been so much easier for him to get a better rf, you should at least be man enough to back up your statements with who would have been a better option, or which GMs have done a better job.

I don't like the signing all that much, but I don't see a lot of better options out there either.

Since you can't name any names, I guess you have to assume this was the best available option.

Like I said, put up or shut up.

For all the complaing you do about "Dusty Haters" at least those people can tell you why Dusty is a bad manager for the Cubs and what he should be doing differently, but I should know better than to want anything resembling facts and honest discussion from the likes of you.

Jones does provide a lot of flexibility- he can back-up the other two outfield spots. If the Cubs decide they want Pie up after next year they can trade Murton for Maddux's replacement and move Jones over to left (or Pierre to left- my vote).

I think Hendry's gone a bit overboard on the back-up plans this year. I wish he would just stay the course, but he seems to try to re-work the team every year. Occasionally you get lighting in a bottle doing that- but likely you just perpetuate the string of almost-good-enough seasons the Cubs have thrown up the last 3 years.

Bleeding Blue-
I Love you man!!!

overpaying 300K vs. overpaying 3-4million.

yeah....i see the comparison there.

OK, I'm going to try to look for the positive here. I remain skeptical of Jones's offensive potential his first season in the NL but I do like the idea of the Cubs adding guys who have reps as willing to bust their tails for their team. I've heard this of Pierre and I'm definitely glad to have this guy. I've seen posts here that Jones is also this way and if that is indeed the case, it makes me want to pull for him more than I would have otherwise. I'm not saying hustle alone is enough, but the Cubs have lacked fire and teams like the '04-05 Bulls, the '05 Sox and the '05 Bears all have shown old-school fight. I do continue to contend that a lefthanded slugger (doesn't have to be a superstar, just reliable) hitting cleanup between Lee and Ramirez would give the lineup a much better look. I also would be interested to know just how much the Cubs do have left to spend, because I really do feel Millwood would be a potentially outstanding #3 starter with Wood at #4.

If d.lee makes it through the season without a serious injury he will get more then konerko money in FA. IMHO it is the cubs who are feeling the pressure to offer a more than reasonable contract extention to Lee. And although reading these posts would lead you to believe no one thinks lee would put up 05 #'s, if he comes anywhere near them his next contract might push into 16 or 17 mil per in FA.
Its in the cubs best interest to extend now for 12 to 14 mil guaranteed!!!!!!!!!!

France did not drag us into Vietnam. In July 1954, France was forced to leave Vietnam when they were defeated by the Communists at Dien Bien Phu,

In the peace talks that followed a line was drawn at the 17th parallel. According to the Geneva Accords there would be an election in 1956 which would unify the country as Communist. The United States did not support the Accords. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles thought that the political protocols of the Accords gave too much power to the Vietnamese Communists. He was not going to allow the Communists to take southern Vietnam without a fight. Instead, Dulles and President Dwight D. Eisenhower supported the creation of a counter-revolutionary alternative south of the seventeenth parallel. The United States supported this effort at nation-building through a series of multi-lateral agreements that created the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO).

And the rest, as they say, is history.

All that said, the French are no saints. Their hal-century of rule over Vietnam was horrible as was their fine work in Algeria.

As far as them collaborating with the Nazis-yeah, a whole lot of them did. As did the Ford Motor Company, IBM and a lot of other American businesses and citizens. After the war the FBi actually had a designation - PAF - which stood for prematurally anti-fascist. So you could hate Hitler, but if you hated him too early you were a Red.

as of right now the offseason is mostly complete and the team still has its top prospects (including cedeno/murton) and todd walker.

there's depth, flexibility, and quality backups.

the only thing that suprises me about the j.jones contract is the 3rd year. i was thinking jones 2yr-12m would be what it would end up if the cubs took him on.

now its time to sign extentions...and that's gotta be coming cuz there's money left and that's how hendry has used the money in the past. i see Z being the main beneficiary of this, but it could trickle down to mr. lee, too.

someone moderate this ... good lord. Manny needs to go back to PSU and learn some tact and/or debating skills.

Oh yeah, Bruce Levine also "reported" this afternoon that the Cubs have a deal in place for Tejada - both sides agree - the deal is done - it is only Angelos that is holding it up. Again, it's Bruce Levine but the only hope in its truth I hold out is that Hendry couldn't trade for a right fielder because he's giving up everything plus the kitchen sink for Tejada.

"i don't post much, but read alot...and I have no desire to read here for a while since all you are doing is bitching at each other.

I'll be back in a few months."

I agree completly with phishphan on his comments... i too I rarely post and usually just enjoy reading what other fans have to say. I also turn to TCR to be optimistic about the Cubs and future possibilities and whatnots. But most of the 2005-06 offseason disscusion here has been hard to read... It seems as though most of the regular posters do nothing but throw pipedream senarios out there and then bitch at each other about pure speculation (whether it be trades, FA signings, or contracts/extensions)or how the others can't add years/contracts, can't play virtual GM, or just post for the sake of argument. There has not been one positive thing on the message board in the past 3 months relating to OUR FAVORITE TEAM or the things they have done so far this offseason. I suppose the dissappointment from the last couple of seasons and the unbelievable year our counterparts on the south side had last year, but come on people give it a rest.

Yikes, I always seem to find myself at the heart of these war and non-Cubs discussion. Who gives a fuck about France's history? All western nations have a shitty history. England, France, Spain with their colonialism, the inquisition, etc etc, the US with slavery and its 'bomb first ask questions later' foreign policy. Everyone sucked, sucks, and will suck. So it's really ridiculous to complain about what one nation did--its also quite hypocritical. The nations of the past are not the nations of today.

I was just annoyed at the calling of the French(in so many words) cowards. Because a) they did fight in wars and b) they don't fight in wars today, not because they are afraid, but because they realize there are other more logical means of diplomacy. See "Irrational Exuberance" for more war talk.

Moving on...stop bitching about what the Cubs have and have not done. It's getting really annoying. We are all Cubs fans; why must there be so many heated arguments...instead of friendly debates? Goodness fucking gracious!

WE are fans and have every right to bash the GM or as many on here do, bash the manager. It is like our jobs as fans to do so. :)

Given how much time some people put into this, I agree the only thing one can conclude is that they are getting paid for it.

BleedingBlue,

You're pretty out of line demanding everyone who questions Hendry to provide an alternative plan. Unless you're just trying to go after Manny, then whatever.

It's also about results. Granted this season hasn't even started but so far there are plenty of questions still carried over from last year's 79-win team, with prior win totals of 89 and 88. He's not exactly built a dynasty over here.

And before I get flamed for having unrealistic expectations, I think with one of the top payrolls in the National League we should expect more. Not to go into details on this particular offseason(no new territory going over those criticisms) but they just scream mediocrity. 'Why not Us' Dusty used to say and now he has that burden also, I think we should be expecting elite, not 'well what else could he have done'.

I guess what I'm saying is that in response to 'what would I do' or 'who could've done better'....one answer could simply be the Cardinals. The Cardinals are doing better. Jocketty and co. seem to have done it pretty well during the Hendry era. That's an alternative to this.

If you want to bash Hendry, go right ahead, but at least be man enough to say WHAT he should do differently.

I couldn't resist coming back to see if people actually defended this move. Bleeding, you've made a lot of sense over the years, and I'm just going to use this as a general point to touch on something that people appear to be overlooking.

The answer to this question is "not lock a completely mediocre player into the starting lineup at a power position for more than one year," the one respect in which the Burnitz move was intelligent. Jacque Jones for one year? Fine. I'd live with it.

Jacque Jones sucking down 500 PAs a year at a corner outfield slot through 2008? Bidding against yourself yet again and overpaying for a player who is not a difference-maker? Dumb, and not defensible without either contortion or a misunderstanding of Jacque's (lack of) value. Who else was in the market for his services? The Royals? Are we supposed to believe that the Chicago Cubs cannot command a small discount and/or shorter contract relative to the Kansas City Royals?

"The Cardinals are doing better."

seen what that team looks like right now? they sure solved their RF situation...seriously, unless they got some faith in larry bigbie or plan on moving edmonds to RF...they got a lotta nothing.

their OF crew as of now is J.Rodriguez/S.Taguchi/J.Edmonds/L.Bigbie

their 2nd baseman is d.cruz/h.luna/a.miles

they have no 6th starter who's pitched more than 55 innings in the majors...none as a starter.

they have a crap bullpen.

if its not an interesting 2 months+ for STL, its gonna be an interesting season.

CHOI TO THE WORLD, HEE SEOP IS SIGNED

Looks like the manny choi-less Hee-Seop bashers here were wrong. The Dodgers resigned Choi to a $725K one year contract, hedging their first-base experiment with Nomar next year.

for the Minnesota fans take on Jacque Jones, I suggest reading the Aaron Gleeman.com message board writeup and posts from Dec 14h.

The below link starts at 12-16 (on Tony Batista) but if you scroll down to Wed 12-14 (Jacque Declines Arbitration).

http://www.aarongleeman.com/2005_12_11_baseba...

You will get some insight on why Jacque Jones will be good ONLY if he's used in a platoon situation with a righty bat. Don't forget to read the comment section (some 34 of em).

My take on this signing... Jones will be offensively similar to Burnitz, unless there is someone off the bench who can play backup RF and have some righty hitting ability (Mabry is a Lefty too).

so unless we see a Craig Wilson (who would be a great pinch hitting/bench addition), we are sacrificing some 150-180 AB's in RF.

Burnitz played everyday had 605 AB's but he was BAD vs Lefty's too. Here's his lefty splits (2005):

182 AB's .236 .268 .445

and Jacque Jones lefty splits (2005):
154 AB's .201 .247 .370 (ugh...but Korey's 2005 splits are worse)

There is NO WAY JJones should see a lefty, but Burnitz was really bad vs Lefty's and not many pissed and moaned about him playing every day. So unless Dusty doesn't see it (and he probably won't) we will be better ONLY if those 150-180 AB's go to a Lefty Killing Right handed bat.

And I do like the Craig Wilson suggestion...
here's his 3 year splits: 268 AB's .284 .413 .575

Hello all disappointed people out there. I didnt have time to read everyones posts but I realized something. Please let me know if anyone has said this already. and gimme the post number, i would enjoy taking a look at it. But let me introduce Jaques Jones platoon partner: Matt Murton. Corey Patterson will play right when a lefty pitches and when facing righties CP will play left! HORRAY!

As they said at Homestar runner:

Crap for Crap!!!

Bulls Blogger:
"You're pretty out of line demanding everyone who questions Hendry to provide an alternative plan. Unless you're just trying to go after Manny, then whatever."

That is exactly what he is doing.

i wasnt gonna comment on it, but seriously...

craig wilson or whoever being a L/R split platoon.

we're talking about 130-150ab's here. mabry would fill that role if anything for such a small selection.

that said...he most likely wont platoon and at "best" he will be pinch hit for in late game situations where his speed on the bases wouldnt be a plus.

however, if the cubs could get rid of patterson for c.wilson or similar....kaching.

quite seriously, patterson is redundant with mabry on board and jones ability to easily cover CF.

its freaky to be talking about patterson's worth to get a RH power bench type from another club, but its perfectly reasonable to consider. patterson's not gonna net a huge bench pickup most likely, but could get an attractive (yet maybe a bit overpaid) RH bench option.

I'm with #139 in terms of this particular signing. In short, it's the years.

I'm not here to read hendry bashing all day either, and am looking forward (now that it's done) to look at next moves for Hendry.

But in my original post (#138) I just wanted to question bleedingblue's general claim that any hendry detraction needs an alternative solution, which I felt was a load of crap.

the non tender list...say it ain't so JoBo

and if the Padres really didn't tender a contract to Dewon Brazelton, why in the world did they bother trading for him. Couldn't they have send Sean Burroughs to Tampa for the proverbial PTBNL and been better off?

If the Padres let Miguel Olivo go, are they going to sign Bengie Molina? Would they dare go into next season with Doug Mirabelli and David Ross as their starting catching combo?
---
Meanwhile, 51 players became free agents when their teams failed to offer contracts by the midnight EST deadline.

Milwaukee didn't offer a contract to former All-Star closer Dan Kolb, reacquired from Atlanta this month. Boston, which had the worst bullpen ERA in the AL, did not offer contracts to reliever Chad Bradford and starting pitcher Wade Miller.

Among those who agreed to contracts ahead of the deadline were Cincinnati catcher Jason LaRue ($9.1 million for two years). Tampa Bay catcher Toby Hall ($2.25 million), St. Louis outfielder Larry Bigbie ($900,000), Milwaukee third baseman Russell Branyan ($800,000), Dodgers first baseman Hee-Seop Choi ($725,000), Toronto infielder John McDonald ($500,000) and Houston backup catcher Raul Chavez ($400,000).

Three other former All-Stars were not offered contracts: reliever Lance Carter (Tampa Bay), first baseman-designated hitter Ken Harvey (Kansas City) and second baseman Junior Spivey (Washington).

Other notable players who were let go included reliever Joe Borowski (Tampa Bay), pitcher Dewon Brazelton (San Diego), outfielder Eric Byrnes (Baltimore), pitcher Josh Fogg (Pittsburgh), pitcher Ryan Franklin (Seattle), catcher Jason Phillips (Dodgers) and catcher Miguel Olivo (San Diego).

regarding the french involvement in WW2...who cares. go start up a blog. all i know is with names like 'pierre', 'jacques' and even 'aramis' in there to boot, the roster is getting a bit francois. dont even want to know where 'neifi' comes from.

regarding the starting rotation, i have been an alarmist for quite some time now. i look back fondly upon the days where "cubs starting 5 all ex-allstars" (wood, Z, prior, maddux, dempster). but now im not so sure if theres such need to be so nervous. putting things in perspective here, we dont have to be the best team in the NL, we just need to be among the best 4 in winning pct, right?

zambrano
prior
wood
maddux
rusch

novoa
ohman
eyre
howry
dempster

(williams
hill
etc..)

and our projected starting lineup too. i dont plan to get all involved with the saber-rifics.

putting it plainly, there wasnt a whole lot we could do with right field (play nomar there? hehe) but at the moment we have a pretty run-of-the-mill starter for pretty good money (from the point of view of jones of course). but hes only run-of-the-mill if he plays like he did last year. what if he turns it around and bats .300? aha! youre lovin you some jacquestrap now arencha? hes coming from a place where no OFer has hit 30HR in like, 2 decades, to a place where SAMMY SOSA roamed the very same lawn not a year removed. you think jacques might have a little more, i dunno, call it gusto? call it giddyap? hey, the cubs want a WS, the cubs fans want a WS, and they signed me to play RF for $$$ for 3yrs. if im JJ, im pretty fuckin psyched up right now. (for all those of you who say "aaah we could have had the same for less with Korey!" i say you need to go play in traffic. we HAVE a right fielder. his name is jack jones. cheer for him or go get bent)

how about JP in center? this guy also has the ability to play above his 05 numbers right? guy steals bases galore, gonna be our savior hitting leadoff right? (which i always shake my head at because youre only guaranteed that the leadoff guy will lead off an inning ONCE and any more is a bonus). hey, OBP eh? OPS right? OPP anybody? tell you what, im happy with him. some of it is rebound from the despair of losing furcal (i fucking hate L.A. by the way), but mostly its because hey, hes not Korey. welcome to the team.

will aramis stay healthy? i think that will depend on where we are in the stretch (as in the last 1/6th of the season). If its close and we need wins, he plays if they gotta make him wear a kirk gibson jersey. if were running away with the division OR the WC race is a forgone conclusion, he will sit and rest for october. thanks, i always enjoy stating the obvious. my point is that, how can anyone know? and the answer to that being nobody can, just as much nobody could have know the derek lee was going to have a monster season (damn you dusty baker) and therefore, this argument is fucking utterly pointless, making me myself wonder why i even addressed it other than it seems like everytime i see somebody take roll-call they point out aramis health as often as they do wood. hey, our 3rd baseman rocks. the end.

can neifi improve on his AOB% this year? (Ass On Bench). lets all hope and pray. as in, actually go to church or rabbi or summoner and get down on the ground and pray in ernest. hey, we're not going to trade todd walker. he will play 2nd base, and though he may be a detriment to the double-play, the hard roller anywhere but right at him, etc, i think in the long run he will make up for it with his bat vs the league average for his position (and salary for petes sake).

murton, cedeno, jeez who knows.

all in all, when it comes down to a question of

1) are you equipped to be 1 of the 4 best teams in win pct?
i think the answer is yes.

2) are you equipped with a 1-2 starter and hot closer to win a short series?
at the moment, theorically, yes.

i welcome anyone to show me the idiocy of my reasoning. if not ill never evolve.

props to TCR and GO CUBS.

I realize that many of these players may get resigned by their original teams. Often it's a teams way of dropping a players salary without the risk of arbitration...only the risk of losing that player.

Here is a better list (by team).

Non-Tender Free Agents
December 21, 2005

NEW YORK (AP) -- The 50 players who became free agents when their teams failed to offer 2006 contracts Tuesday:

AMERICAN LEAGUE

BALTIMORE (3) -- Kurt Ainsworth, rhp; Eric Byrnes, of; Eddy Rodriguez, rhp.

BOSTON (2) -- Chad Bradford, rhp; Wade Miller, rhp.

CHICAGO (4) -- Jon Adkins, rhp; Felix Diaz, rhp; Willie Harris, inf; Timo Perez, of.

CLEVELAND (1) -- Jose Diaz, rhp.

KANSAS CITY (2) -- Shawn Camp, rhp; Ken Harvey, inf.

MINNESOTA (1) -- Grant Balfour, rhp.

NEW YORK (1) -- Wayne Franklin, lhp.

OAKLAND (1) -- Hiram Bocachica, of.

SEATTLE (3) -- Cha-Seung Baek, rhp; Ryan Franklin, rhp; Jamal Strong, of.

TAMPA BAY (4) -- Joe Borowski, rhp; Lance Carter, rhp; Trever Miller, lhp; Michael Rose, c.

TEXAS (1) -- Nicholas Regilio, rhp.

NATIONAL LEAGUE

ATLANTA (2) -- Jim Brower, rhp; Wes Obermueller, rhp.

CINCINNATI (2) -- Ramon Ortiz, rhp; Joe Valentine, rhp.

COLORADO (2) -- Jose Acevedo, rhp; Ryan Spilborghs, of.

FLORIDA (1) -- Joe Dillon, inf.

LOS ANGELES (3) -- Michael Edwards, of; Brian Myrow, inf; Jason Phillips, c.

MILWAUKEE (2) -- Jeff Bennett, rhp; Dan Kolb, rhp.

NEW YORK (2) -- Wayne Lydon, of; Tyler Yates, rhp.

PHILADELPHIA (1) -- Endy Chavez, of.

PITTSBURGH (1) -- Josh Fogg, rhp.

ST. LOUIS (4) -- Bo Hart, inf; Mike Lincoln, rhp; Mike Mahoney, c; Scott Seabol, inf.

SAN DIEGO (3) -- Dewon Brazelton, rhp; Craig Breslow, lhp; Miguel Olivo, c.

WASHINGTON (4) -- Alex Escobar, of; Junior Spivey, 2b; Rick Short, inf; T.J. Tucker, rhp.

HEY MANNY

"You mean like Choi, Hill, Cruz and Dubois?? :)"

yes, i mean choi, cruz and dubois(not hill)....who knows how good they could have been had they been given a proper amount of playing time by dusty. dont get me wrong...the choi thing turned out well for us(DLee). Does anyone out there remember the 2003 spring training when juan cruz was lights out....season starts-dusty has him in the bullpen. he used that friggin estes for five months before wising up...by that time cruz's arm wasnt ready to jump back into starting and WALA- he is a crappy player. Thank you, Dusty. Dubois wasnt given enough playing time cuz dusty was in love with hollandsworth. Dubois only gets to play two days outta the week and you INSINUATE THAT HE SUCKS. you amaze me trillo! i get so sick of ur anti henbdry posts....its like you have no clue about what he has done in rebuilding the minor leaguer system orignored what he did his first two years as GM(his last year he was hamstrung by sosa's contract-and dont tell me that its not an excuse cuz it dam well is)). and you blatantly love dusty...who was given a team with great pitching that he has run into the ground....a deep farm system that he wont play when they do get brought up....i mean, c'mon, you amaze me.

"You're pretty out of line demanding everyone who questions Hendry to provide an alternative plan. Unless you're just trying to go after Manny, then whatever."

why is he outta line....because he thinks its wrong to sit on ur fat asss and bitch about everything someone else does but yet couldnt GM ur way out of a wet paper bag urself. whatever...im done with these friggin morons...lets rehire jim frey everyone so we can start getting rid of our good players....dlee,gone....traded for doug mintiekicz. aram,gone...traded for ty wigginton. dempster, gone...traded for al nipper. u guys f##kin amaze me.

regarding my post #142...

the person on the current roster most likely to get at bats vs Lefty pitchers in RF:

Jerry Hairston Jr.

but looking at his splits, we really could use Craig Wilson!

so here's his splits vs Lefty Pitchers:

2005 vs LHP: 137 AB's .255 .306 .372 (not good)

3 yr totals vs LHP: 290 AB's .276 .331 .372
(not ugly but nothing special)

but his splits vs Rightys is almost identical, which makes him a nice backup player

3 yr vs RHP: 595 AB's .277 .365 .382

if howry and eyre are overpaid then what is gordon, wagner, and farnsworth? nice when people make a nice little comment like this that is total BS...hendry may have overpaid at the start but that was ONE HELLUVA MOVE IF U ASK ME. look how much it made other teams spend on shittier relievers (notice i said shittier). brilliant if u ask me.

re: #149

ahem...

hahahahhahahhahahhahhahahahhahhah
ahhahahhahahhahahhahhahhahhahahha
hahahahhahahhahhahhahahhahahhahah
hhahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahhah

yeah, that covers it.

re: #156

uh...

what, i didnt say anything worthy enough of you?

nothing there for you to twist around?

maybe if i wouldve posted under Mike C?
(although i know Mike C wouldnt make the drab comments i do).

forgive my trespassing, oh great and learned crunch.

France has neither winter, nor summer, nor morals. France is miserable because it is filled with Frenchmen, and Frenchmen are miserable because they live in France. Mark Twain

no, i just think its funny...take the spiked shoes off, sit down, and chill out.

or i'll umm...type at you or something.

One more righty bat suggestion, and he's apparently not all that pricey. (plus he'd fit in well with DLee and JPierre with the ex-Marlin 2003 club theme)

Jeff Conine, nice pinch hitter and righty bat. Not sure if he could play much in RF as he's more of a LF/1B/DH type.

Talks slow with Baltimore
Dec 20 - The Orioles are still believed to be the front-runner for Jeff Conine, but they have been unable to close the deal, the Baltimore Sun reports. The talks between the two sides have slowed as Michael Watkins, Conine's agent, is dealing with a personal matter. Orioles officials are hopeful they will have him signed before the weekend.
The O's reportedly have offered a one-year deal worth between $1.75 million and $2.5 million.

3 yr splits vs LHP: 309 AB's .282 .365 .427

Those are SOLID numbers.

Anyone else interested in Eric Byrnes and Wade Willer?

BTW, the only thing the French Resisted to in WWII was soap. Their cowardice led to hundreds of thousands of dead Jews. Once the Germans took Paris (not one shot fired in defense of their capital) they were asked to prepare a list of Jews living in France, but too late, they already had it ready. Thanks alot you frog loving wimps. Like I've always said, there's no Jew hate like French Jew hate.

You know why the streets of Paris are lined with trees? Casue the Germans like to march in the shade.

You're pretty out of line demanding everyone who questions Hendry to provide an alternative plan.

Its out of line to say people should back up their statements? Sorry, but that's what adults do when debating issues.

I think its pretty childish to bitch and moan about problems without at least presenting possible solutions to them.

I think Hendry's done a poor job this offseason and I can tell you why I like or don't like all of his moves.

Neifi/SS: Way too much money for a bad player, particulalry when you've got Cedeno who at worst is a Neifi clone at a 1/10 the price. Not to mention. I would have like to see Nomar offered Arbitration considering the silly price the Dodgers paid for Furcal.

Bullpen/Eyre/Howry: I don't think its wise to give large dollar/multi-year deals to any middle relievers. They might help in 2006, but will likely hurt in the long run. I think using youngsters again would be far more cost effective.

OF: Hendry's given up more than I'd like in both prospects and years for Pierre and Jones. That said, its a very weak FA year, so I don't see many more appealing options.

See, its not even hard to backup your opinions when you've put thought into them. If you're just looking for someone to blame, then yes, it would be more difficult, but if you're only looking to point fingers then why bother posting?

oops take Conine off the board...

The Orioles and Jeff Conine have reportedly come to terms on a one-year deal worth about $1.75 million.
Conine chose Baltimore over Atlanta, where he wouldn't have been a regular. The Orioles could make him an everyday player in left field or at first base. Dec. 21 - 12:24 am et
Source: Baltimore Sun

>>no, i just think its funny...take the spiked shoes off, sit down, and chill out.

oh, i see. got something against random ranting do ya.

well, it makes me feel better to get things out in my own warped form of reasoning, so sue me.

if it makes you laugh, then great.

if it makes you think i need advice along the lines of taking off my spiked shoes and chilling out(?), then uh...thanks?

ill say it again just for you though sweetie.

with our current rotation+pen+lineup, i think we definitely can be one of the four best.

there.

man, it feels great to get those cleats off.

Who is the sick bastard who brought up the idea that Murton and Jones would platoon in LF with Corey in RF?

It is so crazy it could happen!

Why do you have to give me nightmares with that possibility!

hey cubby, i think we should rename you seescubbyblue.

k.

UH MikeC, that was me. And you twisted it a bit. We all know who our manager is (and I;m a fan) but with his love of platooning, I see Murton in left and Corey in right against lefties and CP in left and Jones in right against righties. Think about it. Its not pretty, its just Dusty.

cubster

eric byrnes catches my eye. maybe platoon w/ jacques?

I couldn't resist coming back to see if people actually defended this move. Bleeding, you've made a lot of sense over the years, and I'm just going to use this as a general point to touch on something that people appear to be overlooking.

And Thank you Ron Galt for proving you can be critical of Hendry's moves and have reasons for doing so that go beyond simply wanting to point a finger.

Bidding against yourself yet again and overpaying for a player who is not a difference-maker? Dumb, and not defensible without either contortion or a misunderstanding of Jacque's (lack of) value. Who else was in the market for his services? The Royals?

First of all, I believe the Cardinals were also in on the bidding.

But more imporatantly, 5 million a year for a very good defensive and mediocre offensive outfielder isn't out of line, particularly when you look at who else is available in this FA market.

I don't see any options that are much better that would have cost much less. Maybe you can get a 1 year deal out of PWilson or Encarncion, but I don't see that as much different than the current situation. If the Cubs want to get rid of Jones next year or the year after, his $5 Million won't be cost prohibitive to trade, so they'll be able to ship him out for a couple of midlevel prospects if they want in a year or two.

The Cubs aquired an average outfielder in a market where there were no superstars available. This move doesn't put the Cubs over the top, but it doesn't put a nail in the coffin either.

Good News..

Sources tell ESPN.com Insider Jerry Crasnick that St. Louis has emerged as the frontrunner in the Sidney Ponson chase. Ponson, whose experiences in Baltimore were almost all bad, is looking for a fresh start in the National League, and the Cardinals are still looking for another starter after coming up short in their bid for A.J. Burnett and losing Matt Morris to San Francisco.

I would LOVE to see that fat drunk pitching for the dead birds.

Ahh ok Chad. Still doesn't look any better, lol.

Was reading over at View from the Bleachers and it puts into perspective Hendry's off-season....

(consider that the Cubs traded 3 minor leaguers for Pierre, while the Red Sox traded 3 minor leaguers for Beckett, Lowell and Mota)

Granted they really wanted to dump Lowell's contract but if the Cubs were not blinded on one task (like they usually are) with Furcal, we probably could of snatched up Pierre, Mota and Beckett.

craig wilson or whoever being a L/R split platoon.

we're talking about 130-150ab's here. mabry would fill that role if anything for such a small selection.

See, not only do I think Jones needs to have a platoon mate, but I think the Cubs need to have a real RH bat on the bench. No offense to Mabry, he's a nice utility guy to replace Macias, but the Cubs don't have a go-to pinch hitter. Having a good RH to platoon with Jones would make the Cubs offense much more dangerous.

Unfortunatly, the downside is that any veteran with a decent bat picked up for the bench would probably end up starting in left and push Murton into the platoon role with Jones.

You all realize that it's still bigotry even if its against the French, right?

When the fuck did intolerance become acceptable?

WWII, WWII...were you even alive then? How dare you impune a nation for what it did in the past. Once again, all nations have dirty histories. But speaking of WWII, the US new of the concentration camps LONG before they entered the war. What about bombing of Dresden? Or the A-Bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki when Japan was about to surrender.

Impuning a people is never acceptable.
It is so easy to point your finger at others, you self-righteous hypcrocites.

hmmm...

no, somethings just not right.

"cubby" is my fraternal nickname (sure none of you are surprised by that based on my brash language and unreasonable reasoning).

but its true though, I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CRITICIZING HENDRY. though i say its because i know it does me no friggin good, i think its just my personality.

maybe my buddhist up-bringing is the cause for me believing that nomars crotch ripping apart was fated just as much as was jack and john playing in our OF, and never pull my hair out about hot stove stuff or spend too much time on criticism.

but then again, maybe its the rut cubs fans have been stuck in for too friggin long providing for years of mediocrity.

i dunno, i feel lucky to have the derek lee and the carlos zambrano and sorta feel us lowly cubs fans should fear to take for granted and be too outspoken and yadda yadda yadda.

so, yeah, im an optimist to a fault. cant deny that.

the murton/jones platoon in right...

oh jesus...

sounds like the hollandsworth/rookie platoon idea all over again (but maybe not as bad).

(oops, i meant platooning in left)

(consider that the Cubs traded 3 minor leaguers for Pierre, while the Red Sox traded 3 minor leaguers for Beckett, Lowell and Mota)

Granted they really wanted to dump Lowell's contract but if the Cubs were not blinded on one task (like they usually are) with Furcal, we probably could of snatched up Pierre, Mota and Beckett.

The Cubs gave up 3 prospects for Pierre.
The RSox gave up 3 prospects for Beckett/Lowell/Mota

Therefore the Cubs should have been able to give up 3 prospects for Pierre/Beckett/Mota? Is that the math I'm seeing?

Of course, The 3 prospects from the Cubs included 2 mid to high level prospects and a guy who's out of options that they would have lost anyway.

The Red Sox gave up 3 of their highest rated prospects, including a top pitcher and a top SS.

but 3 prospects, yeah, that would have got the deal done...

(consider that the Cubs traded 3 minor leaguers for Pierre, while the Red Sox traded 3 minor leaguers for Beckett, Lowell and Mota)

....

nolasco was the only prosepct worth mentioning in that trade as far as reasonable worth for the cubs...and he was the 4th/5th prospect pitcher in the cubs system.

hanley ramirez is arguably the best SS prospect in baseball depending on how you feed about brandon wood.

anibal sanchez is one of boston's top pitching prospects

jesus delgado has a high-90s fastball and a changeup...and working on a curve. he's 21 and a converted OF still learning his craft.

and then there's the other guy garcia...whatever about him...

add to that the bazillion dollars of payroll the rsox take on in that deal what it took to get there.

i wouldnt be too happy to see the cubs do that, myself.

Well, The Joe, I say you are greatly UN-qualified to discuss matters as the firebombing of Dresden or the bombing of Hirsoshima or Nagasaki. Why? Cause you are a pacifist and there is no justification in the world for you to use that force. Even if the Japanese were going to blow up the world unless we nuked them, you wouldn't have agreed with our use of force. Sorry, you are excused.

As far as the French, can you defend the action of having a list of Jews at the ready? Isn't there a fine line between pacifism and complicity?

i think my jaw just dropped to the floor. Damon now a Yankee. This is no suprise to me. What is a suprise is that its 4 years at only 53 million. Would that have been worth it to the Cubs? Did we just completely miss out by not being in Damon's market at all? Had we gone in and said here is 4 yrs at X. Could we have then entered his market when Boras finally realized that 7 years was never ever ever going to happen?

I'm really beginning to shake my head. We ended up from having no RF to a mediocre one. We now have a mediocre CF to replace the K's from KP. Our OF now consists of hoping to god Murton lives to our highest of high expectations. So, I don't know a lot about Jones. He's good defensively right? Please say yes.

So, trying to think positively. Our offense was wierd last year. 2nd in HR's and AVG. 3rd from last in SO and dead last in walks (yo baker, wonder why we were 9th in Runs and RBIs) What really seemed to do us in though was our pitching. Our coveted, touted, DL'ed pitching. So... Where does our new pitchers fit in? Do they really strengthen us? Will our pitching be much better now? Will Prior stay healthy? Will Z's arm stay attached? Will Wood even be on the team let alone be ready by...May?) Can Dempster repeat? Good god thats a lot of questions. I'm with everyone else. I'm so completely not excited about next season. Its going to be one huge question mark. Ok. So the positive? Well, we won't go in with insanely high expectations like we have in the past.. We'll be able to either shrug our shoulders and say what could we have expected, or we'll be able to celebrate a playoff run. I'm not sure I'll ever feel like this last year where it was one upsetting thing after another.

First you tell me I'm unqualified to discuss the subject, then you ask me a question?

To answer your question, no there is not a fine line between pacifism and complicity.

I am not discussing the rightness or wrongness of war. I was only pointing out the ridiculousness of complaining about the sins of another nations's past.

As you say, I do have specific opinions on the subject, but again, I wasn't rehashing the morality of war discussion. What I WAS talking about was the fact that you are a bigot and I find that unacceptable. Actually, let me refrase that: You may be a bigot, and I cannot do anything about that. But, ethically, I cannot ignore hate-talk and will speak out against it. As a person who spends so much time dwelling on your hatred of the Nazis, I find it ironic that your prejudice is not dissimilar to theirs.

Joe you don't understand the concept of war in that era. Bombing of cities was what you had to to do in a time of war. They were the economic and manufacturing hubs of war. Just like in the past two-thousand years when countries waged war against each other they would burn cities to the ground.
Only in the last 10 years or so have we been able to surgically bomb targets.

As for your remark that Japan was about to surrender. You really need to catch up on your history. After the bloody battles on Iwo Jima and Okinawa the military believed that if it kept winning battles like that they wouldn't have an army left in the Pacific. With all the islands within striking distance of Japan secure the Japanese were ready for a bloody battle on the shores of Japan. Every citizen in Japan was preparing for war, and I do mean everyone one. They had extreme loyalty to the Emperor. If the American's landed every Japanese citizen would die trying to push them back into the Ocean.

US casualty estimates for an invasion of Japan predicted 500,000 American dead and wounded. That was the conservative estimate.

Faced with this possibility we warned the Japanese government to surrender or face dire consequences. They refused, so we dropped the 1st bomb. We again told them to surrender or we will be forced to use another one. Again the Japanese refused. So we dropped the 2nd one. Not knowing how many of these bombs we had they knew resistance was futile. The Japanese figured the Americans would keep dropping bomb after bomb on Japanese cities and they would never kill 1 single American. The only option was surrender.

An interesting side note Japanese scientists had the choice between developing Nuclear Weapons or a "Death Ray" using microwaves. The Japanese scientists dismissed the stupid one, Nuclear Weapons, and tried to make the "Death Ray." If they had chosen Nuclear Weapons they would of likely built the bomb before us and dropped it on Seattle or L.A. Worse yet they might have forced us to concede the entire Pacific region to Japan while they rebuilt their Navy and Army. This would mean the Phillipines, China, Korea, and Hawaii would be all part of the Japanese empire. With the Americans out of the picture they would be free to head to the Middle East to secure the much needed oil for their new Empire.

"4 years at only 53 million"

the guy hits 10-20 homers a year...he's not worth 13m bucks...oh wait...according to this offseason he is.

seriously...is it 1998 again? these contracts are nuts. at least furcal isnt gonna be 32.

I'll stop hating the French once they stop hating Jews. Temples being burnt down. Jews being beaten in the street. Jewish graves being desecrated. I dunno. I'm no Nazi. I am not advocating the death of French people. I don't think we should kick the French out of this country. I'm just saying that they are the enemy of the Jew and the United States. In fact, I would like to handle them in a very peaceful way. I would like to cut off diplomatic ties and discontinue all trade with them. As well, cut off trade to any country that trade with them. Divestment. Sound familiar? Well it should cause that's what France did to Israel.

mark prior offered arbitration, btw. dunno if its purely procedural or if prior did opt out of his 5th year, but either way it looks like he's due for a raise, too.

MikeC, I really don't want to start a fight here. We have had more than enough non-Cubs talk throughout the week.

Believe me, I have studied history, and my opinions still stand.

Even IF these tactics were justifiable from a just war standpoint (which I do not believe them to have been), as Chad said, I am a pacifist, so the argument is wasted. I'll just leave it at, agree to disagree...or feel free to read the discussion from "Irrational Exuberance". I just don't want to waste any more space on a Cubs blog by merely repeating myself on my views of war.

All that I was actually saying was that I do not tolerate hate-speak. As a person who works towards peace amongst all peoples, I am compelled to speak out against intollerance and hatred.

I thought this was a Cubs blog? I'm all for history, politics, religion, ect., but in a baseball blog?

How about sticking to How bad this acquisition of Jaque Jones was? There's plenty of fodder there!

Here's an unrealistic trade:

CP + Matt Murton + any minor leaguer for

ManRam.

I know, I know. But admit, it makes sense.

No, MikeC, the 500,000 casualty figure for Japan is a complete fabrication as was the 250,000 figure that was also pulled from thin air and then doubled to justify the bombings. The whole surrender focused on Japan's inability to come to grips with the shaming of the Emperor who was considered a direct descendent of God.
By the way, I know about the bullshit of the casualty figures because my dad was involved with the infighting of watching them get grossly inflated. Of course, he was just a Navy guy and had no idea why the brass was so bent on driving the figures up until after the atomic bombings.

As far as the need to bomb cities in wartime... the US did not bomb German cities for the sake of bombing cities. They always insisted that there were strategic targets involved and not simply civilians. That's why Dresden is considered such a crime. It had no strategic importance industry or military-wise. After the war, studies found that the bombing of German's military infrastructure was an absurd waste of money and manpower for the damage it inflicted on the enemy.

Japan was another matter. There's a great book called "War Without Mercy" that discusses both the Allies' and Japanese racism and ruthlessness toward the enemy in WWII. The fire bombing of Japanese cities culminating in the great firestorm created by a raid that killed 100,000 in one night in Tokyo would have been unthinkable against the white Germans.

As far as most things go Cub-wise, I find I'm usually in agreement with you.

What an AWFUL AWFUL signing!!! Why the hell didn't we sign Wilson for one year or at worst 2 years??? At least he lead the league in RBI's once! WTF has jones done?? I HONESTLY would have rather had Patterson there next year because at last we could cut him after this year and lay Pie there in 2007.

Awful, simpily awful!

wilson wants to play CF...

aside from that its kinda weird how little talk wilson is getting in the FA market. wonder if there's eye injury concern or something...

I don't have the patience to read through a comments thread this long, especially one that has seemingly been kidnapped by politics.

But back to the original question for the thread....if no one has mentioned him, free agent OF/IF Eduardo Perez would be an excellent platoon partner for Jones, Perez absolutely mashes LHP. His career OPS against lefties is nearly 900, last year it was over 850. The Cubs reportedly have interest in him. And he'll be inexpensive.

Another option, again don't know if he's been mentioned in this thread, but the just-non-tendered Eric "Kookie" Byrnes is a possibility. Last year, his OPS against LHP was a marginally acceptable 784, but he did have a bad year. For his career, his split against LHP is a much better 862.

I'd take Perez. I don't know that Craig Monroe or Jose Cruz Jr. are really available. And you can certainly cross Kevin Mench off the list for the Cubs at this point.

I'm trying to read all this, just catching up...

So far,I've discovered that mannytrillo is still an ass, everybody wants to fire Hendry over this deal for some damn reason, and once again, as some others have pointed out, a lot of you are jumping to burn everybody without really being able to back it up with any solid reasoning.

#25 (I think) Crunch--dead on right

more in a minute....

Ummm yeah. The Japs bombed Pearl Harbor and their atrocities in China were well documented before the war. Ever heard of the Rape of Nanking? So we fire bombed Tokyo, who cares. Just a little payback for all the crap they did in China. Population supported the Emperor, population is a viable target to decrease moral of the people.

German people supported Hitler. Hitler had invaded numerous countries and killed millions. He also fire bombed London. So we pound the crap out of Dresden, and every other city in Germany till that sick bastard killed himself. Population is a viable target.

RAF (Royal Air Force Internal Memo)

ìDresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester, is also far the largest unbombed built-up the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.î

RAF January 1945

Dresden was also a major rail base for sending troops to the Russian front. And you would be foolish to suggest that no factories were in Dresden to help with the Nazi war effort considering it was the least bombed city in Germany. With no where else to go that was the last place Germany had to rest its troops and manufacture weapons without getting bombed. The Allies simply dealt the knockout blow to Germany in Dresden.

You also have to remember bombing wasn't exactly an exact science. It took multiple runs of hundreds of bombers to knock out a factory section of a city and even then they still didn't do much damage. By the end of the war we were putting thousands of bombers in the air at one time and simply blanketing the area. And then going back again to make sure they were not rebuilding.

Our outfield is now way to French to win anything, maybe they will just surrender.

I think the expression you're looking for is "Cheese eating surrender monkeys."

I've surrendered my hopes, how 'bout you?

I took the following quote from post #48 as it exemplifies a certain kind of problem in judging that failure is professional sports is a question of character and not talent, a problem that is shared by management, much of the baseball media, and of course fans.

#48 of 195: By CTC (December 20, 2005 06:25 PM)

"The Cubs' problem over the last few years has not been a lack of talent or the lack of potential stars. The bottom line is there is a certain attitude, a pride and determination that exists in places like New York, Boston, Atlanta, St. Louis, and in recent years Anaheim, and yes, on the South Side. A $150 million payroll is not going to get us a world championship. It's the simple attitude that "We are winners, we can do this." Until we have that, no trade or free agent signing in the world will get us where we want to go. OK, I'll get off my soapbox now, but that's the truth."

Dear CTC, Jim Hendry, and Phil Rogers et al.:

No, the reason the Cubs finished below .500 last season, was because of their talent level. They had possibly the worse outfield in terms of offense in baseball much of the season at least until Murton was inserted full time (it was offensive, as in "stink"), a terrible bullpen during the first half of the season, and a medoicre starting rotation which all of you believed was going to be one of the best in baseball at the start of the season. Yes, a few key hits and they may have one a few more games. Alternately, few key hits against them and they would have lost even more games. When you score about as many runs as you allow, then lucky breaks and every run you don't score looms large. Bring in the young talent and amazingly character will follow.

Now to comments about the Jacque Jones signing and other Cubs moves.

I am not deeply dismayed by the Jacques Jones signing for 2006 as, given the talent level in this FA class, they could have done far worst. Yes, a team of JJs and JPs will not win world championships, which is why one should jump at great talents like Vlad Guerreo when they appear on the market at a discount (as I still cry over that spilt milk), but no team has great players at all positions. You have to put together a team based on the talent available as the loss opportunities of previous years cannot be redeemed in a single offseason. Adding JJ and JP will be an improvement over CP and JB. Yes, I would have preferred to pick up Brad Wilkerson over JJ, and have spent less money, but when you have a seller's market in the FA market it sucks to be a buyer. For truly atrocious contracts, see Johnny Damon's deal with the Yankees.

As to the season ahead, as one writer has pointed out, since JJ can't hit left handed pitching, they Cubs still need a right handed outfielder who can rake. And they still need to address their most important need going into this off-season, the desperately needed trade for a starting pitcher as the Cubs's cannot depend on Kerry Wood and Mark Prior to be anything but part-timers and Glendon Rusch and Greg Maddux are useful as 4 and 5 starters, but are not numbers and 2 and 3.

I really admire the way both Kenny Williams and Billy Beane have addressed the percieved weaknesses in their clubs. I think Hendry has done a credible job in some ways from a weak position, as the outfield appears to be improved (primarly on offensey as simply getting Pierre over Corey adds about 30 runs to the team's offense; while JJ and JP are about equal to CP and Burnitz on defense). If the Cubs could somehow extract Barry Zito from Oakland or a like starters from someone else, then I would give Hendry a B+ for this off season. Especially since all of their rivals seem to be going backwards (sometimes you need luck). Still getting to 87 wins next season will be a substantial improvement, and the odds are against them getting to 90 wins.

Here is the scouting report from ESPN.com:

Hitting
Jones has tremendous bat speed that can drive a fastball a long way. In late 2003 and last spring, he looked like he was increasing his patience and selectivity at the plate, but often looked overeager during the summer. When he slumps, Jones tends to swing at virtually anything near the dish early in the count. He will get himself in a hole and his at-bats will last a matter of seconds. As his salary increases, he will need to improve in these areas to remain an everyday player for a good team. Greater patience would generate a better on-base percentage, as well as better power numbers, because he'd be swinging at better pitches to hit.

Baserunning & Defense
A smart, aggressive baserunner, Jones isn't blindingly fast, but can steal the occasional base. He's one of the best-fielding corner outfielders in the game in terms of range, but continues to have trouble finding his release point on throws. One might fly to the backstop, and the next might roll to the cutoff man. His throws aren't consistent enough to play right field in many stadiums besides the Metrodome, which has a shallow right-field fence.

2005 Outlook
There's a lot of talent in Jones' body, and he has demonstrated the work ethic and attentiveness required to still improve. An emotional man, Jones could benefit from a more peaceful 2005. If he can combine his raw power and bat speed with a little more patience and a higher on-base percentage, he could become a borderline All-Star talent. If he doesn't progress, he could wind up platooning somewhere.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/scoutin...

Dear T-Bone and Joe:

My friends in and those who work for the American military are glad to make the World safe enough for you to have your opinions and live your lives out free to do what you want, even if it is to follow a silly baseball team like the Cubs.

The dispute about the nuclear bomb and the allied bombing campaign in WWII against both Germany and Japan rarely results in anyone changing their position now as usually boils down to the temperament and belief systems of those doing the arguing. The casualty figures for a possible invasion of Japan will always remain in the realm of speculation since no such invasion occurred. But the figures for the invasion of Okinawa and Iwo Jima are well known. And since the forces involved in a Battle of Japan would have been far larger, it is reasonable to believe that the casualties would have far larger as well. The then young 1LT Paul Fussell, writes that how, when he heard the news of the bomb being dropped and Japan surrendering, he cried for hours, not tears of shame, but of joy that he would live, that he would not die as he fully expected to as veteran of the ETO scheduled to participate now in the invasion of Japan. Those of us lucky enough to escape 20th century combat as an infantryman should not judge him a harshly.
From Global Security.com:

Battle of Okinawa
Okinawa was the largest amphibious invasion of the Pacific campaign and the last major campaign of the Pacific War. More ships were used, more troops put ashore, more supplies transported, more bombs dropped, more naval guns fired against shore targets than any other operation in the Pacific. More people died during the Battle of Okinawa than all those killed during the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Casualties totaled more than 38,000 Americans wounded and 12,000 killed or missing, more than 107,000 Japanese and Okinawan conscripts killed, and perhaps 100,000 Okinawan civilians who perished in the battle.

Joe,

Quit defending 'France'. Either call it by it's proper name 'West Germany' or shut up.

'the A-Bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki when Japan was about to surrender.'

Where did you get that bit of trivia from? Japan would not stop making war- the bombs stopped them. It takes quite a interesting mind to see a country surrender 14 days after the first atomic bomb was dropped on them and then come to the conclusion 'Japan was about to surrender'. It's quite obvious that they had eternal deliberations about surrendering and even when the US encouraged those deliberations by dropping a 2nd bomb they still didn't surrender. Sometimes you need to apply common sense when you hear things, just not take them to heart because the US is the Evil Empire and anything said against them must be true.

Ok, so we've moved on from French hate-speak to calling the Japanese 'Japs'. Congratuations on venting your blatant racism. Any other groups we can single out...I'm sure you can think of few.

"My friends in and those who work for the American military are glad to make the World safe enough for you to have your opinions and live your lives out free to do what you want"
I and my friends who worship God are glad to pray for the sins of your war-mongering friends. We'll all have a good laugh in Heaven when they realize what atrocities they've committed.

"Quit defending 'France'. Either call it by it's proper name 'West Germany' or shut up."
What a clever way to begin a conversation. Sorry, I don't have time to waste on witticisms.

Once again, NO ONE was paying attention to what I was saying. You were all just eager to jump on the bandwagon, once it was realized that racism is apparently acceptable in this forum. You should learn to actually hold a discussion. When arguing with someone, actually pay attention to what their point was...not just the examples.

And, yeah, for a true history lesson, read tbone's post. He's right. Or read a history book that actually tells the truth. You should also read Kurt Vonnegut's views of Dresden.

Now pay attention, THIS WAS WHAT I SAID:
Racism is not acceptable. Condemning the French as Jew-haters is bigotry. Calling the Japanese 'japs' is bigotry. This is unacceptable hate-speak, even if the nations that they represent may have committed sins in its past. My point was that ALL nations have sins in their past. It is hypocritical to look at theirs and ignore our own.

"i wouldnt be too happy to see the cubs do that, myself."

Crunch - if we keep protecting our farm to play for tomorrow, tomorrow very well may never come. There has to be a point where we start to select the key prospects we want to keep and build around, and move the rest to make the team better in the short term. We can't keep hoping that someday 5-6 prospects become stars at the same time so that we can have a 5-6 year run.

Hendry did the right thing trading guys who probably weren't on the 3 year chart (if we have one) for Pierre. Even if Pierre is a one year guy, and then gone in FA, it was a good move. We need to be doing more of that. We need to be players for the Beckett's of the world. We need to be legitimate players for star-like players. (by that I mean that we can't be discussing Patterson and crap prospects - rather we need to talk about trading Pie, Hill, etc. We needed to consider moving Guzman and Brownlie 2 years ago, when they would have gotten us pieces that might have made a difference in the 2004 playoff run. We neeeded to make moves that would have helped us for 2005.

Organizationally, we need to be more selective about what prospects to invest in, and what prospects to trade to make the team better.

Catching up after two nights of boozing and broads again in Central Iowa. Heck, we got all the way through two kegs of Pabst Blue Ribbon and a raosted hog on the farm. Hi, Raffy Furcal and Sidney Ponson here.

MannyTrillo...boy, you're crazy!!!! And you're getting chewed up by logic from almost everybody on this Klatch. I stopped reading at...oh...let's say number 90.....my advice to you, "Stay Down MannyTrillo....Stay Down"

Regarding Jacque Jones.......and most regulars here know my affinity for Corey Patterson...is that his upside talent wise and stats wise is nowhere near what Corey's is. With that said, for one reason and one reason only, he MAY produce better than Corey because SOME OF YOU ASSHOLE FANS MIGHT GIVE HIM THE CHANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any of you ever had a poor job review? Ever had a boss in your ass just cuz he's a jerk? If so, did you perform better or worse? My guess is worse!!!

You drove out Corey Patterson.....he's likely gone.....and now you have to put up with average for the next 3 years. But hey, union boys, it's YOUR RIGHT to boo who you want, chew who's ass you want, bash Hendy and Baker......when you're perefect, I'll listen. Until then, some of you are still idiots in my book.

Somebody said we have a qeakness at SS. Where exactly is that weakness? Cedeno? Then why the hell is every team mentioned in a trade wanting him first? What do you think they know that you don't?

Second base? Walker is going to hit .300 and play average to above average defense...and he's a leader and not a head case. So what if he's religious...............deal with it like a man and appareciate that he might have different beliefs.

Could go on forever, but bail is getting posted soon by my agent. I know a 24 bar that I can run to and get back online. Any taxis in Des Moines? I'd hate to drive yet again while under the influence!!!!

R. Furcal

Pages

X
  • Sign in with Twitter