TCR Friday Notes

Looks like the cellphone minutes that have been accumulating between Orioles GM Jim Duquette and Jim Hendry will finally payoff. It probably won't land us Miguel Tejada, but it does look like we'll rid ourselves of Corey Patterson. Rumor has is that the 2 teams are close to a trade sending Patterson for a mid-level prospect. If the Cubs can just rid themselves of Patterson's salary, I'll consider it a good trade no matter who we get in return. It should free up a 40-man roster spot as well so that we can welcome in the Marquis Grissom era. - Did Chuck LaMarr sign with the O's? If every rumor is to be believed they may have passed up on Prior, Manny Ramirez and possibly now Bobby Abreu. The latest Tejada rumor from Ken Rosenthal is that the Phillies are offering Bobby Abreu for Tejada, but the O's want a pitcher in the deal and I suppose they want one who, you know, can actually pitch. The Phils would move Tejada to third base. Seems like an awfully stupid trade if you're the Phillies. Tejada makes for one great shortstop, not so much as a 3rd basemen and your giving up an argubably better bat. Other then a boost in the clubhouse temperament, I'm not sure what the Phillies would gain in that deal, other then maybe a bit of payroll flexibility, although I'm guessing the O's would want the Phils to even up the money. I just can't imagine why anyone would want to make a deal with Duquette and the O's by this point. Tejada's a superstar, but he's not the answer to life, the universe and everything. No matter what deal the O's strike, they'll still be the 4th best team in their division and very possibly the 5th if the D'Rays ever find some pitchers. The O's should be purging some teams minor league system for major league ready prospects and gaining the payroll flexibility to actually help them contend in a year or two, since contending this season is out of the question. Angelos must suffer from the same delusions that Tribco does, that it's better to trot out mediocrity versus actually developing a long-term strategy to win. Anyway, I'd love for Tejada to join the Cubs, but at this point, I don' think there will ever be a deal that would make the O's happy. - Prior voiding his contract so that he can file for arbitration is a non-story. Agreed? Great, let's move on. - The Cubs spring roster is at 53 at the moment and the following non-roster players have gotten invites. OF Marquis Grissom INF Augie Ojeda OF Mike Restovich P Bobby Brownlie P Carmen Pignatiello P Raul Valdez P Randy Wells C Dennis Anderson (Who the hell is he?) C Jake Fox INF Casey McGehee INF Brandon Sing OF Buck Coats OF Adam Greenberg I'm sure a few more will be on there way. The good news is, no Jose Macias anywhere on that list.
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Comments

Pie + Hill + Novoa + Patterson + Dopirak, for Tejada + Majewski. Makes sense for both teams.

Since they can't match up on Prior and Tejada, what about Wood and Tejada, with the Cubs including Cedeno and a high-level pitching prospect as well? Eric, I don't see them trading Tejada to the Cubs without Cedeno going back.

I don't think we should trade Patterson just to get rid of him. It isn't like he is a problem in the clubhouse or off the field. He appears to be any exemplary person and he is still relativley young (26). I'm not against trading him, I'm against giving him away. You give away problems, not potential. Except for last year, he hasn't been horrible, just not living up to his expectations. He has a career .252 average, with an average of 19 hr's and 24 sb's. Other than last year, which was horrible by any measure he has been mediocre. There is still at least a possibilty, however slight it might be, that he can become a very good major league player. He has all 5 tools, his problem is in his head. To give him up for something that has less of chance to develop into anything of value is a mistake. If we gave him up for another lost potential palyer it might be another matter. Besides, if we are seriously talking trade with the Orioles about Tejada, why would we make a relatively minor trade with someone they apparently want. Seems to say to me there is no chance the Cubs will get Tejada and both teams know it.

Word is Angelos won't touch anyone with an injury history, so Wood is out of the question. And if the Patterson deal is true, I think that should mark the end of the Tejada talks. If they were going to get a deal done for Tejada, you'd think they'd just package Patterson in with whatever prospect was coming our way.

Doesn't really sound like the O's care if they get a SS in the deal. Not sure why as I don't know of anyone that could step in and play it for them.

Dumping Patterson just to save his salary is an admission of incompetence from everyone in the Cubs organization from MacPhail on down to anyone who has coached Patterson in the past few seasons. That includes Hendry and Baker. Patterson was once a major resource, and this trade would make it official that the Cubs squandered that resource.

STOP THE MADNESS!!!! JUST STOP TALKING ABOUT TRADING KERRY WOOD!!!!!! IT MAKES YOU LOOK UNINTELLIGENT AND UNINFORMED!!!!! A guy with his injury history, coming off surgery, who hasn't thrown a pitch since August, who still has to rehab, who doesn't know when he'll be ready to face a live batter, let alone a game, HAS ZERO TRADE VALUE!!!!!!!!!

OH, WAIT, who also makes 11 million dollars.

and a full no-trade clause.

How about Kerry Wood and Wayne Messmer for Tejada.

The echoing canyon repeats that Wood has a no-trade clause. You'd have to convince him that he wants to play for the O's, and his wife and charities are local to Chicago. Granted, he winters in Arizona, so he's not completely tied to the area. But I'm guessing the unfamiliar, poorly constructed, Florida spring training based O's aren't interesting to him.

Unless they pick up his option year. : )

And, I hear Kerry's a big fan of INSTANT REPLAY!!!! MADNESS!!!!

ROB G: Dennis Anderson is a 28-year old switch-hitting catcher who was a six-year minor league free-agent (Marlins). Hed spent the last three seasons in AA.

The Cubs are going to need more extra catchers than usual this Spring, what with Barrett abd Blanco participating in the World Baseball Classic, so I would expect Casey Kopitzke and Tony Richie to eventually join the party, too.

You know, what I don't understand is everybody talking, especially over at northsidebaseball.com about using JOnes as a platoon with Murton. Why would you pay a guy that kind of money (Jones) to be a platoon player. We already have a high-roller platoon guy in Neifi. By the way, I'm not that disappointed in the Jones signing.

Again,Prior better not go anywhere.

Messmer's a deal-breaker, sorry. But I'd be willing to part with Yosh Kawano and Ronny Woo-Woo.

Jacque Jones should be platooned, highly unlikely that he would be though. HIGHLY!!!

"IT MAKES YOU LOOK UNINTELLIGENT AND UNINFORMED!!!!!"

Capitalization and extra exclamation points, however, make you appear bright and in the know.

: )

Just messin', Chad. I actually agree with you that Kerry won't be traded, but I think it's because of the clause. Given starting pitching prices and the fact it could be just a one-year deal, I think many teams would be interested in trading for Kerry Wood in 2006.

No-trade clauses are simply the beginning of negotiations. Phil Nevin and Jamie Moyer did refuse trades last season, and maybe that is a growing trend. But usually a player is convinced to accept a trade by guaranteeing option years or adding years onto an existing contract. There is often a method to convince a player who is not wanted anymore to accept an invitation to a new team. Cash money is often that method.

That said, I don't believe Wood will be traded this season, at least not before the All Star break.

Stevens, understood. But as you may know, ALL CAPS is internet YELLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(you know what I mean?)

Trading me would be BRAAAEVE!

Washington Times baseball reporter Thom Lavarro said on a Baltimore/DC area sports talk show the other day that the Orioles simply cannot pull off any complicated or large deal because Angelos simply spends too much time thinking and kvetching about it. "Peter Angelos takes an entire weekend to read the newspaper, a week to review Burnitz's physical is a given," Lavarro said (or something very close.)

He called the team "institutionally incapable" of pulling of any complex deal, especially one involving Tejada and Manny Ramirez. I suspect he would say the same about any deal involving Abreu.

I agree with RobG, if I were the Oriolea, I would simply ask for an entire farm system in exchange for Tejada and I bet their door would be beaten down by the Cubs, Red Sox, Braves, maybe even the Angels (because their farm system is so loaded and I think Brandon Wood is a 2007 or 2008 prospect, at which time Tejada would be even cheaper and very easy to trade). But Angelos seems fixated on the idea that "star players" draw in the fans and that if he trades a "star", attendance will suffer greatly unless he gets a new "star".

"That said, I don't believe Wood will be traded this season, at least not before the All Star break."

Exactly! IF, he comes back strong and IF the Cubs are out of it, then he may be traded.

your absolutely right Ranch, but no is going to guarantee Wood's option year with his health woes.

The Angels have so many top flight prospects it's sickening, but Stoneman practically refuses to trade them. Actually he practically refuses to trade anyone, prefering to add through free agency and the farm system. Hey, it's worked pretty well so far.

Rob,

I dont think this Cpat to the O's deal means Tejada to the Cubs deal is dead. It is very plausible that they agreed that Cpat in this trade would include the O's including player X. Knowing how we want CP gone and the O's need some MLB ready OF and the O's probably want to get rid of Player X as much and X fills a hole for us. So they decided lets do the bottom part of this trade now and work on how to resolve Prior and Tejada later. My guess is if they do work it out it will be Prior and Hill for Tejada and the O's will send us the differnce in their salaries this year (7 Mil) that we will use to get Jeff Weaver on a 30/3 or 36/4 deal. By the way I think Player X will be John Maine who would fill the 7th starter role vacated in the Pierre trade. I dont think it will be Fiorentillo or Majewski because they have higher upside than CP.

Messmer seems like a nice guy, and all, but I am sooooo sick of seeing and hearing him sing God Bless America and the National Anthem. And then, as I recall, sometimes we have to endure Wayne Messmer singing with his wife. As Roberto Duran once begged, please "no mas!" Can't we do any better than Wayne Messmer??????? I mean, once a month, okay, fine. But when we see him out there singing two, three times per week, enough already. You cannot honestly tell me that we cannot do any better than Wayne, or at least not any worse. It would be one thing if Wayne were Tony Bennett, but he is not. I would rather see us give struggling professional singers a shot at it rather than wondering why the heck Wayne Messmer has talked his way into what seems like a regular gig. Does he have some damaging info on the Cubs' president or general manager? Heck, I would even prefer that we trot Jose Macias out there to sing. I am sooooo sick of Wayne.

I never bought that Hill was part of any deal. If Hendry insisted that the Cubs get a quality starter in return for trading Prior, there's no reason they'd throw HIll there way as he's just about ready to pitch in the majors. And whatever anyone may think of Hill, the Cubs think quite highly of him and so does most of major league baseball.

And if anyone gives Weaver a dollar over $6 million a year, they should be drawn and quartered for their sheer stupidity.

man, your dishing a guy who got shot in the throat. Tough crowd. I think Messmer is just the fill-in whenever they can't book somebody since they're too busy finding C-level talent to do the 7th inning stretch. I find him to be excellent.

Messmer's national anthem during the NHL All-Star game in Chicago, when we went to war the 1st time in Iraq, was one of the greatest performances ever of that song. Anyone else remember that?

I remember it RobG. Anyone who ever heard Messmer sing the National Anthem before a 'Hawks game at the old Stadium probably thinks Arm is way off base. Between that and surviving the throat shooting/robbery, there is probably a lot of sentiment for Wayne around Chicago. I like him enough that I don't anticipate ever getting "sick of him".

You know what drives me crazy????? The Jose Macias references. Every blog in Cubblogland says at some point each day "as long as we no longer have Jose Macias on the roster". WTF? He was the 25th man on the roster and performed like the 25th man on the roster. He certainly didn't cost us the division, the wild card or even 500. There were and are 23 other guys who should be held up to more ridicule than this poor mope. I could care less about Macias, and maybe this is supposed to be funny, but it's hard to put credence in the opinions of people who are fixated on the release of the 25th man.

Rob, I remember that for sure. It was AWESOME. The place went BALLISTIC, too. Maybe I can find it on the internet.

Sense. of. humor. :)

Was Rich Hill up to anything this winter like, oh, I don't know, learning to throw a third pitch or, if all the planets were lined up right, a fourth pitch as well? Or are the Cubs so excited by other teams' interest that they think they've got a real prize - a guy in his mid-20s with one outstanding pitch?

And Chad - I usually join you or even beat you to the Kerry Wood is worth nothing after being under the knife until he someone actually sees him throw a baseball but I just can't find the strength to do it anymore. I feel like the guy yelling by the road at the end of
'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'.

I have to completely agree with TJ's post on Patterson. If we're not getting at least a top 10 prospect back for him it's not worth trading him...and I'm not even sure that's enough value. His value is at an alltime low right now, it can only go up. Put him on waivers and send him to AAA. If he gets claimed then work out a deal with that team. If not, I could think of worse players I'd rather have on the bench for defense, speed/baserunning, or some lefthanded power.

Patterson's career is far from over and I can't believe Rob G. would suggest he's excited to clear Patterson's roster spot for Marquis Grissom. Are you kidding Rob? This will be a sad day when we give up on a still promising young player whose only fault was being promoted too quickly and in two seasons being forced into a role he was uncapable of performing well at by an ignorant/arrogant manager.

Hill always had a 3rd pitch (I think he has a 4th too - cutter & a change I believe), just didn't have the confidence to throw it up here. An interview I read last season, said the Cubs asked him to work on it, fwiw.

I wasn't overly impressed with his major league stint, but as I mentioned, the Cubs brass and apperently much of baseball think the kid will be good in the very near future.

I think Dwight Smith should replace Messmer with Carmen Fanzone on trumpet. Then Thad Bosley can produce their CD and Richie Hebner can bury the unsold copies and... oh well.

It is unconscionable that Jim Hendry has not yet made a public statement to dispel the rampant Wayne Messmer trade rumors! It will only negatively impact his National Anthem performances to know that he has been ìdangledî as trade bait. Just one more example of why the Cubs will continue to go nowhere under the current management.

I still don't get this: (poll on chicagosports)

"What do you think of the Cubs being close to shipping Corey Patterson to Baltimore?
- 37.0% Goodbye and good riddance (2630 responses)
- 45.1% Depends on what they get (3202 responses)
- 17.9% Brock for Broglio (1272 responses)
7104 total responses"

Corey has no value, he is a 3 year old computer. Trade him for 50 bucks and a case of Michelob light. It would be nice if we could get something for him, but we won't and he's just eating roster space. I don't think that there is any question that he has talent and plays to those strengths. But he's also gone on record saying he shouldn't have to apologize for not making adjustments. ("being aggressive") I believe this is just his defense mechanism to hide the fact that HE CAN'T MAKE ADJUSTMENTS. He DID show some promise, but people have figured out that his loopy swing is no match for a good ole face-high fastball. He's not a 16 year old kid, and old habbits are hard to break. I don't think he will start anywhere, ever. "G'bye and good riddance"

Chad, there are circumstances in which teams would trade for Kerry Wood, so please get off your soapbox and think about it.

He's clearly not a valuable commodity, but who wouldn't take a one-year chance on him if the Cubs are paying for it? White Sox, Yankees, teams with more than enough starting pitching, but ask if most teams would look at Kerry Wood for 2006 at say, $1-2 million or so, hell yes they Wood. He could definitely come back and help someone out later in the season. This is the same kind of January short-sightedness that has the Cubs not chasing (that we know of) Cezar Izturis, though we could definitely be kicking ourselves in August going "I wish we had Izturis (or for that matter Nomar)." The backup backup plan. Actually, the same reason to hold on to Wood, unless we can make the team better now. Wood in a package still has value, because Kerry Wood still has value, especially at a discount. I wasn't rehashing any new ground, but neither was your response. I'm aware of Kerry Wood's problems.

Caps lock is the equivalent of yelling, and you are the equivolent of John Madden.

Patterson's career is far from over and I can't believe Rob G. would suggest he's excited to clear Patterson's roster spot for Marquis Grissom. Are you kidding Rob? This will be a sad day when we give up on a still promising young player whose only fault was being promoted too quickly and in two seasons being forced into a role he was uncapable of performing well at by an ignorant/arrogant manager.

Uh no. He's the arrogant ass that will never accept that he's not Barry Bonds. He's the ignorant idiot who thinks that he doesn't need to change his approach to hitting even as his batting average approached .200.

Patterson's career is far from over and I can't believe Rob G. would suggest he's excited to clear Patterson's roster spot for Marquis Grissom. Are you kidding Rob?

Yeah, I kinda was, especially about the Marquis Grissom era. But I think his career is over. How many years of professional baseball and never shown one ounce of ability to adjust his game. Sure sign of failure. And despite what you think of the Cubs moves, they are trying to win now and you can't wait for a guy who's failed you repeatedly if you're trying to win now.

I'm not sure of his option years, but sticking a guy who's going to make $2-$3 mil in Iowa is going to be tough to swallow. Yeah, maybe he tears up Iowa, but until he tears up major league pitching again, no one is going to give us anything worthwhile for him. I'm assuming the prospect we'd get has some upside and I'm only for the deal if it clears his contract off the books to help us with extensions or the other holes on the team.

Caps lock is the equivalent of yelling, and you are the equivolent of John Madden.

I'm no spelling Nazi but you do realize that you spelled a word correctly then incorrectly in the same sentence, right? And when you want to bash some one, spelling counts.

Also, fine, Kerry Wood could be traded. I would trade the worst player in my minor leagues for him IF the Cubs paid 10 million of his salary. But that won't happen. But you act like we could get some value out of a trade for Wood. WE CAN'T. Maybe you just don't understand baseball all that much.

BFT - the Jose Macias ditching is really a indictment of Dusty Baker and not of Macias. I think most people who are excited about the Macias ditching are really just saying "whew now Dusty won't be tempted to use him too much". Which is highly likely. So yeah if he really was the 25th man you wouldn't hear anything. Instead we have an incompetent manager so getting rid of Macias was essential. Now why not just get rid of the manager you ask? Obviously that would be the rightmove but some assume that Hendry's hands are tied by Tribune front office becaus of Dusty's contract - but nobedy really knows. For all we know Hendry loves our sh%tbag manager.

WPZ,

So you're asking the Cubs to eat $9 or $10M of Wood's salary and get what in return exactly? that's why we're saying he's not worth anything. Yeah, at $2M someone might be interested but Wood's due to make $11M.

Let's speculate about who the Oriole propsect might be in exchange for Patterson. The Baltimore Sun report indicates that it is not a "top 5 prospect".

Assuming it is not a pitcher (there is no need for the Cubs to trade for a pitching prospect), here are the players that I think it could be, in the order of likelihood (IMHO)...

Jeff Fiorentino, lefty OF, converted catcher. 3rd round 2004 selection out of college. .286/.346/.508 in A-Frederick (Carolina League) last year, 22 HR. Interesting power-hitting prospect though not a particularly big guy. I saw him play a couple games in Frederick last year, his fielding needs work (was really only his second year as an OF) but is pretty athletic. He is on the Orioles 40-man roster and was called up when the O's got banged up in May-June, bypassing High-A, AA and AAA (but still not regarded as a top-5 prospect)

Tripper Johnson, 3B, first round pick in 2000 out of high school. Has had a fairly standard minor league progression until last year, where in Bowie his OBP and SLG took a plunge (to .309/.387). Played in the Fall League where he broke out of that, hitting, .333/.460/.529. Not on the 40-man roster.

Nate Spears, 2B. Drafted out of high school in 2003. Two years in Low-A, last year in Frederick. Definitely the type of player one would regard as "scrappy". It's hard to judge offensive production of a 20-year but he hit .294/.349/.429. Not on the 40-man roster.

Brandon Fahey, SS-3B. 12th round pick out of University of Texas in 2002 draft. He has shown a nice progression in the minors offensively, adjusting in both A-Frederick and AA-Bowie to his collegiate production, to an OPS over .700. But a utility player at best in the pros. Not on the 40-man roster.

Nolan Reimold, OF. 2nd round, 2005 pick out of college (Bowling Green). Might be too early to project, but had OPS of 1.242 and 1.266 his last two years of college. It was Bowling Green, though. Not on the 40-man roster.

Tim Raines, Jr., OF. Don't get excited about the name, but I guess if Hendry is trying to replicate the White Sox success, he might be tempted to pick up "The Pebble." Can't slug for squat, not particularly fast, not much of a defender. Couldn't even make the O's outfield last year. On 40-man roster in 2005 and DFA's mid-season.

Position players that I don't believe the O's would trade are Nick Markakis, Val Majewski, and Walter Young.

a) Kerry Wood is hurt. Nobody has any use for Kerry Wood. Nobody! NOBODY! (Except sometimes.)

b) I made a typo. I don't understand baseball.

Anything else before I call Northwestern about its new philosophy professor?

I'd probaly throw John Maine in there, I know you were assuming no pitchers, but his stock has fallen as has Korey's, but he's still got some potential.

typo in my immediately-previous post: Federick Keys franchise for the Orioles is High-A Carolina League). I had mis-stated that in my discussion of Fiorention and Spears. Sorry.

"He was the 25th man on the roster and performed like the 25th man on the roster. He certainly didn't cost us the division, the wild card or even 500. There were and are 23 other guys who should be held up to more ridicule than this poor mop"

amen.

between macias's 180-190ab's a season and hawkins 19ip last year...you'd think macias racked up 800ab's the last 2 years and hawkins threw for 1/2 year as closer before he got knocked outta his role.

there's guys even worse than macias that got 200+ ab's a year easy. if anyone can make a case for geoff blum being employeed or making a postseason roster, that'd be interesting. what's more intesting is blum actually won the WSox a postseason game doing something he rarely does...hit a homer.

baseball...weird game.

Without flying off the handle, does anyone actually think that Dusty is going to do something other than "Murton full time in LF, Pierre full time in CF, and a Jones vs RHP/Grissom vs LHP platoon in RF" ?

Everything else is just fear of Dusty overthinking or sarcasm?

Yes I understand the Dusty danger is real, but someone said it's the "end of Murton's chance to start"...

I vote Nate Spears (2B) Maybe a Ricky Weeks to go with our JJ Hardy? (Cedeno)

Luk, mispell all you want. I dun't care. I'm just sayin that if you wnat to insult me, the leest you culd do is spull it rite.

I

crunch, hawkins threw for well over a half year as the closer. and his effect on the ballclub (psychologically killing the idea that we could win a close ballgame) was rather large.

DC Tom,

I heard the Texans were offering the O's David Carr for Walter Young. Young projects as an Left Tackle better than first base I mean that man makes Cecil Fielder look fit.

if the cubs can turn patterson into reimold that's a huge win. he's a very hendry-like player. all-tools and then some. he's still years away.

i dunno if the o's would part with him, though.

"hawkins threw for well over a half year as the closer. and his effect on the ballclub (psychologically killing the idea that we could win a close ballgame) was rather large."

100% Dusty Baker. I would like to have Hawkins back as the excellent set up man he was, before being ruined as the "closer of the week whipping boy" he was made into.

hawkins threw 19 stinking innings.

everyone who looked to replace him BLEW IT.

if it matters that much, there's more problems wtih that pen than the guy who threw 19 innings. the ENTIRE bullpen was a failure the 1st 1/2 of the year.

the whole dempster thing was a nice bit of luck. there is NOTHING even remotely in his past that says making him a closer would be a great idea...not even close. historically his worst pitches were pitches 1-15. until last year's #s improved this total, pitches 1-15 were his worst #s. go figure.

and all that aside...hawkins was out of the closer spot by mid-may.

"Dumping Patterson just to save his salary is an admission of incompetence from everyone in the Cubs organization from MacPhail on down to anyone who has coached Patterson in the past few seasons. That includes Hendry and Baker. Patterson was once a major resource, and this trade would make it official that the Cubs squandered that resource." --Ranch

Ranch is right and it is flat out sad.

"I would like to have Hawkins back as the excellent set up man he was"

hawkins is gonna throw the same stuff...inning 9 or 8 or 7.

there is nothing magic about when he throws. there's also noting magic about a frozen-rope straight fastball. that's his problem...not what inning he throws, but how he throws. no magic inning was his problem. his problem lies solely in his stuff.

as a setup man in SF he did worse than he did with the cubs.

Crunch,

For a guy who touts scouting a whole lot, I'm a bit amused that you say there's nothing in dempster that indicated he'd be a good closer. Obviously Hendry felt there was something and he comes from a scouting background (and very well respected on that front).

I personally though he'd crash and burn as a closer as well, but I've been humbling enjoying my crow all off-season.

"For a guy who touts scouting a whole lot, I'm a bit amused that you say there's nothing in dempster that indicated he'd be a good closer."

so what makes you think dempster would be good?

was it his 6.40 ERA 1.70 WHIP in pitches 1-15? maybe his 7.00 ERA 1.70 WHIP in pitches 16-30?

was is his penchant for putting men on base via the walk at a .5+ per inning pace?

dempster's ONLY saving grace is he dont give up the longball much.

Did you read my last sentence?

No, I didn't think he'd be good, completey basing my opinion on stats. Hendry touted numerous times last off-season that he felt Dempster would make an excellent closer and I'm going to assume that opinion is based on something you can't find on a stat sheet.

btw...no, i dont like dempster.

i see a guy with 2 main pitches who doesnt have control over any of them.

he throws a deceptive fastball, but much like wood's, its deception is based partially in its acceptable wildness.

dempster the closer still amazes me as much as his 1 homer he gave up amazes me.

the fact he's a guy, who like zambrano, tends to need to "warm" his arm before he starts grooving it...i didnt see much of a chance for him doing what he's doing in the pen.

the fact he's got a 3yr/15m deal really worries me.

Who is plan B if Dempster's WHIP catches up to him and he fails to succeed in the closer role?

howry, probally.

though he doesnt throw as hard as he used to, he's a very cerebral pitcher. he does his homework. i hope the switch to the NL doesnt screw him over, but in this era of constant switching of teams hopefully it wont be much of an issue.

don't disagree with any of that crunch, I certainly don't think he's a lock to be as successful as he was last year (although I don't think he'll do any worse then be league average either). But you have to give Hendry his due on that one, that's all I'm saying, he saw something (or listened to someone) that no one else did. (at least so far).

RobG,

I like Maine a LOT. I suspect Leo Mazzone and Mike Flanagan like him just as much. His ERA definitely took a step backward in AAA last year but there was some flukiness to that, as his K/BB/HR rates stayed pretty much the same as they were in 2004 and his H/9 rate actually improved. I think the O's could regard him as a top-three pitching prospect.

A below-the-radar-screen pitcher in the O's system is Sendy Rleal, a smoking reliever. It's time for him to move up-or-out, but his rates last hear in AA-Bowie: 9.55 K/9, 2.29 BB/9, .51 HR/9, 0.91 WHIP. They may still like Chris Ray better as a better (and younger) reliever/set-up guy, who was also in Bowie last year. Rleal is getting up there in age, so I could see them trading him now for a major league roster player.

The other O's "live arm" pitching prospects (Radhames Liz, Garret Olson, Brandon Erbe) are too young or undeveloped for me to consider that a fair trade for Patterson. Maybe Cody Morris, though.

"hawkins is gonna throw the same stuff...inning 9 or 8 or 7.
there is nothing magic about when he throws. there's also noting magic about a frozen-rope straight fastball. that's his problem...not what inning he throws, but how he throws. "

I disagree. I think he was great in the 8th, when nipping the corners with fastballs can catch hitters guessing. But in the 9th, they're not guessing, they're swinging, and that's why you need a tabletop breaking ball to pitch in the 9th.

"as a setup man in SF he did worse than he did with the cubs."

...sure, but I'd wager that he will come back to be a good SET UP MAN somewhere after a year or 2. Getting boo'd out of a town probably didn't help his confidence.

yeah, i give hendry his due on that one...but i have no idea how he arrived at the conclusion he'd be a good man there.

i see nothing in his makeup or past that points to him beign a good short-man, much less a game ender.

aside from the fact he's not prone to the longball i am hard pressed to see anything in his past or 05's spring to say dumpster is the man for the job.

yeah howry, although he didn't do a very good job in that role with the wsox (sound similar to Latroy?). Eyre has wording in his contract that he'd earn extra $$$ if he became the closer as well.

If Dempster were to get injured early in the season before Wood started pitching again, I could see him getting moved to the closer role as well. But if he's already starting games for us and presumably doing well, Dusty is resistant to that sort of change.

Re #52, chifan3887,

That's funny. But even funnier is the fact that Walter Young is probably going to be their starting first baseman this year unless they land another outfielder, which "frees up" Jeff Conine to play 1B.

That's the real problem with the O's -- they have some nifty, hard-to-fill components (Tejada at SS, Roberts ad 2B, Javy Lopez and Ramon Hernandez at C, and a very useful Mora at 3B), and then the positions that should be relatively easy to fill (1B and OF) they load up with crap.

I don't buy that Young will be the 1st basemen, he'll DH, Javy or Conine will play 1st on most days. At least I hope that's the case...

Re #70 RobG,

Either way, Walter Young and Jeff Conine are still slated to get way too many ABs for the O's.

Well, the O's do suck. :)

Ronnie's still hotter than a pistol...as of 1/5/06:

CHC R.Cedeno SS 4 0 2 0 0 2 .375

cedeno's never seen a pitch he didnt wanna swing at. it'd be nice if he filled out a bit more and became capable of hitting the ball more than 200ft. more often than not.

at least his glove/arm are stellar. the only thing missing from his D game is presence. neifi has it...he knows where to set up and how to mold the infield. cedeno hopefully can take that role with time. its a great compliment to a glove/arm man.

There's a comparision for you

Ronny vs. Korey (and you can throw Pie in there too)

Cedeno gets promoted in the minors and his #'s get better each step of the way (same goes for Pie and even Murton). One of the most important things, imho, when tracking the performance of players in the minors, is how they handle each promotion. It's not the only thing to look at it, or some absolute, but it certainly shows the ability to adjust to stiffer competition, which I believe to be a huge factor when evaluating the youngins. Korey took a crap everytime they promoted him, but he got rushed through cause of his "tools".

I am a die-hard Cubs fan:

This deal is a joke. It's insulting that we are dealing with Orioles and it doesn't involve Tejada....that is just adding insult to injury.

Getting rid of Patterson is good, but for NOTHING?? I mean come on. Where are our standards here!!? Jim Hendry has really shit the bed this offseason. I like Pierre, Jones and the Bullpen - but I really thought we were gonna get someone that could put us over the top. Spring Training starts next month. See ya in 2007.

I"m not sure I agree with your assessment of Ronny, crunch.

I think he has some gap power that could (considering his age) develop into 10-15 homers. And although he's no walk machine, he's not allergic to taking them (see Perez, Neifi). Couple that with his ability to make contact and I'm finally starting to see why the Cubs brass have liked him so much.

The positioning will come in time....

That's just my humble opinion from the little I've seen and read about him.

yeah, he's got capability to develop some 10+ HR power...given a full year he could probally pop 10+.

i just dont see a lot of pop in most of his contact.

he's not a juan pierre type where he's gonna try to get 170+ hits by laying 400+ batted balls in the infield, but i wouldnt count on too many stand up doubles or triples outta him.

He's the ignorant idiot who thinks that he doesn't need to change his approach to hitting even as his batting average approached .200.

Come on Chad, that's just not true. Let's compare Patterson's approach and Dustiny's forced approach (trying to make him a leadoff hitter that bunts to get on when's he's more than capable of 30 HR):

Patterson approach:
2003 298/329/511 in 329 ab, 13 HR, 16 SB, .19 BB/K
2004 266/320/452 in 631 ab, 24 HR, 32 SB, .27 BB/K

Dustiny approach:
2005 215/254/348 in 451 ab, 13 HR, 15 SB, .22 BB/K

Patterson should have been left alone to refine his strengths, not learn to be a whole new style of hitter. Let's not also forget that until his confidence was ruined last year he was a superb centerfielder who just turned 26...generally considered the first of a player's peak years. I don't know about the rest of the posters here but I'll never complain about a high quality defensive CF who put up those two lines in '03-'04. I've said it before and I'll say it again, he should have been left alone in the 7th spot the whole time. We then wouldn't be having this discussion, wasting millions on Pierre, or trading away some of our most valuable pieces.

Superjimmer:
"BFT - the Jose Macias ditching is really a indictment of Dusty Baker"

I didn't know Baker was teh GM too. But really, everyone knew Baker used his entire roster throughout teh year when Hendry and teh Cubs signed him. They knew it, so what amazes anyone that the 25th man doesn't just sit on the bench the entire year except blowouts. That is not his style and Hendry knew that. The complaining actually should be why do we have such a bad 25th player on a $100M payroll team. But doing that would actually be taking some blame away from Dusty as we don't want to do that, right?

Manny, if you were a carpenter and your boss put 23 good hammers in front of you and a hand grenade (Neifi) and a clogged pistol (Macias). Is it your bosses fault if you shoot yourself or blow up? Hendry gave Baker a typical 25th man in Macias and Baker over used him. Baker completely sucks. Hendry did a CRAP job last year, but Baker is in his own league for cooking up shitcakes as a manager.

I agree with manny on this one, although I think Dusty overused/misused Macias, the far greater travesty was that he was ever on the roster and ever received a guaranteed contract.

There are easily 100 better players (and I'm not really joking) in the game with near as much "versatility".

Well Jody,

First, in 2003 I believe his average would have dropped back down to career level. after all he only played 81 games.

And for your other assessment about Dusty's influence, strange, who was the manager for the Cubs in 2003 and 2004? Oh yeah! Same guy. I'm sure Dusty didn't try to influence Patterson until 2005.

how's that for a few mixed metaphors! lol!

Superjimmer, the answer to your question is, 7:30 a.m, right?

Jody Moulton-

Right on with the stats on Corey Patterson.

Show me any other position player in baseball forced to make the batting position changes of Patterson. Can't be done, cuz every other orgnization...and every person who played the game recognizes that you're basically starting your career over. Moving from a semi-power hitter, around the .289 mark, to lead off SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU'RE FAST is a travesty of everything about these coaches, managers and general manager.

With that said, they're entitled to the mistake if they rectify it, and Corey should be held in high esteem for being a team guy and accepting the experiment. How many other pro athletes would have done it?

They (Hendry and Baker) got in his head, and ruined him, because they paniced. If Patterson resurrects his career, it won't be with the Cubs.

What a damn shame that is!!!!!

Joey

#83 of 86, Chad.

Your logic sucks. When did Baker and Hendry try to turn Patterson in to a lead off guy?

Maybe 2004? Coincidentally was that second half of the season poor for Patterson? I think it was.

Face facts. Hendry and Baker ruined him.

Joey

Rob G and Manny, my point isn't that Hendry should not have signed Macias. We all agree on that. HOWEVER "BTF" in his/her post was wondering why people are ecstatic about Macias being released/not re-signed, and wondering why the reaction was out of proportion FOR A 25TH MAN. So my point was thatthe real reason people are abnormally ecstatic about a 25th man being released is because our manager DOES NOT USE HIM LIKE A 25th MAN. It is a crap move by Hendry but BTF's point is well taken if it is any other team with a manager as in WHO CARES? Even if Hendry signed a crap player, WHO CARES because he is the25th man. The ONLY REASON WE CARE is because Baker plays the hell out of him. Oh and Baker sucks ass. LOL.

LOL! Chad (re: #85) Indeed 7:30am.

And for your other assessment about Dusty's influence, strange, who was the manager for the Cubs in 2003 and 2004? Oh yeah! Same guy. I'm sure Dusty didn't try to influence Patterson until 2005.

No, you're missing the point yet again. Perhaps you missed the string of reports between the '04 and '05 season and all during spring training where Dustiny stated "Patterson's my leadoff hitter" and forced him into that role based on limited and ill-advised at-bats in 2004. Patterson being the good team guy that he can be obliged and even worked on those skills in the offseason. So no, Dustiny didn't push this on him until 2005.

Jody,

As much as I hate Baker he is not the reason for CP's failure. He still would have been doing his best Pete Townsend impression regardless where he was batting. He sucked at AAA this year when he was miles and miles away from Baker.

I wish Corey that best when he finally winds up on his new team for 2006. But Dusty is not to blame for Corey's problems. Look, a fleet-footed out fielder should be able to get a bunt down. Corey has a hard time even getting a sacrifice down. Whether Corey hits first, second sixth, or seventh, the goal is still the same: See pitcher. See pitcher throw ball. See batter wait for pitch. Wooo, don't swing too soon batter. Wooo, don't swing at balls over your head batter. Try to get a hit 2.5 to 3.0 times out of every ten at bats batter. Try to hit to the right side of the infield when there is a runner on second base. Corey cannot do any of this and his place in the batting order is not to blame for his inability to do this from any position in the batting order.

Superjimmer-
Does Macias play more than the average 25th man? Can you please give examples??

I don't know many teams 25th man, but I do think the White Sox 25th man last year was probally Timo Perez.

Let's compare:
Macias - 177 AB's (.254/.274/.316)
Perez - 179 AB's (.218/.266/.296)

So you should be saying the same thing about Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams.

I think 170-200 AB's is right in line with what I would expect a 25th to get for the year. That averages out to a WHOPPING 7 AB's a week.

I think you are overreacting in a situation you want to pin the blame on Baker, when it isn't deserved.

Macias

2000 73 games 173 ABs (Det)
2001 137 games 488 ABs (Det)
2002 123 games 338 ABs (Det/Mon)
2003 111 games 272 ABs (Mon)
2004 98 games 194 ABs (Chi)
2005 112 games 177 ABs (Chi)

I don't see that Baker's usage of Macias is outside of major league norms.

I think Jody has a point, that Dusty forces people into roles they're not suited for (IE Latroy Hawkins) but I think that from the hitting perspective, Corey's unwillingness to adjust is the underlying problem. I don't buy that his confidence was ruined either.

I predict that Corey will have some initial success for the Orioles at first. Then, as AL pitchers read the 3 word scouting report on him, (FACE HIGH FASTBALL) that success will tail off and the Orioles will be looking to clear him their roster this time next year.

"...the goal is still the same: See pitcher. See pitcher throw ball. See batter wait for pitch. Wooo, don't swing too soon batter. Wooo, don't swing at balls over your head batter. Try to get a hit 2.5 to 3.0 times out of every ten at bats batter. Try to hit to the right side of the infield when there is a runner on second base..."

I think we've found our Dusty replacement for 2007.

"[Corey] sucked at AAA this year when he was miles and miles away from Baker."

Your larger point is true, Baker was not the main cause of CP's problem (not that he helped much), but this point is false. CP hit well in AAA (297/366/505)

Macias wasn't really overused - he played about as much as you'd expect your super-sub utility guy to play. He was obviously misused whenever he batted near the top of the lineup and when he was put in CF for those games aginst the Nationals, but regardless, the impact of his use and misuse on the Cubs season was very marginal. The majority of posters on this site and most other Cubs sites place undue emphasis on him and Dusty's use of him.

I can understand why this is the case - because its extremely obvious that Jose Macias should never bat second in the order and thus it makes one feel superior to the Cubs actual manager to identify this - but it doesn't enhance the limited importance of the Gremlin.

I also think its garbage to blame Dusty Baker for Hawkins' performance. Hawkins was the Cubs most talented relief pitcher when he was placed in the closer role and there is just no logical reason he would and did implode when closing versus pitching in the 7th or 8th. I would have done the exact same thing. I might have tried something different a little earlier than Dusty did but I think its wrong to blame Dusty for trying.

"Patterson should have been left alone to refine his strengths, not learn to be a whole new style of hitter. Let's not also forget that until his confidence was ruined last year he was a superb centerfielder who just turned 26...generally considered the first of a player's peak years. I don't know about the rest of the posters here but I'll never complain about a high quality defensive CF who put up those two lines in '03-'04. I've said it before and I'll say it again, he should have been left alone in the 7th spot the whole time. We then wouldn't be having this discussion, wasting millions on Pierre, or trading away some of our most valuable pieces."

Corey hasn't yet shown any ability to refine his "strengths" and the more the league has seen of him, the worse he's produced. Corey's shown no desire to change, he's refused to play winter ball and he's apparently such a fragile person that when his offensive game goes down the crapper, so does his defense.
The best I think anyone could expect from Corey would be a Mike Cameron-like player. Trade him to the Rockies and he could have a couple of Preston Wilson years.

Why no comments on the Frappr post?

I might have tried something different a little earlier than Dusty did but I think its wrong to blame Dusty for trying.

That's the thing, I don't think anyone has ever blamed Dusty for trying Hawkins as closer in 2004. He was the best option available after JoBo, and although Hawkins also failed as a closer in Minnesota, that was several years earlier.

But It was clear in 2004 that Hawkins couldn't get the job done, but not only did Dusty not try someone else, in 2005 he put Hawkins right back in the same role!

Not to mention, he did all this while Jim Hendry was saying he wanted Dempster to get a shot at closing throughout last offseason.

You don't blame a chef for a bad piece of steak, but if he cooks it until its blackend and chared, and then throws it in the oven a for a few more minutes, then yes, he needs a good part of the blame.

wouldn't blame baker for hawkins in 2004, do blame baker for hawkins in 2005.

Some good points on Macias, but far too many times he was the first guy called off the bench and far too many times (particularly in 2004) he got starts. (2005 didn't go too well either when he got those starts in CF for about a week). But as I said, the bigger travesty was the fact that he was on the team at all. Almost all of that blame goes on Hendry, some I'd blame Baker for his insistence on "versatility" and carrying 12 pitchers. (and I don't care that most of baseball does it, doesn't make it right.)

He's gone, I'm glad. I'm also glad Burnitz is gone, so it's not just the 25th man I'm ripping on.

Yes, Dusty doesn't understand that you can't fit a square peg into a round hole.

"I don't get it, dude, Hawk has the stuff..."
"We're snake-bitten"

Step in out of the rain, dumbass

CP hit well in AAA (297/366/505)

You consider it good when a 3 million dollar a year MLB player hits 300 with a 870 OPS in the hitter friendly PCL?

By comparison, Jason Dubois had an OPS up near 1100 during both 2004 and his brief trip to Iowa with Korey in mid-2005.

RE: post 101...Elwood (January 6, 2006 03:17 PM)
Why no comments on the Frappr post?
__________________________

They knew we would say, "should have called TheDude TheDork"!

Amazing the pin isn't hitting the map on Halsted St. for 'TheDude'.

He's so lavender.

Robr,

Look at the box scores or game recaps he was like a .250 hitter down there until his last week at Iowa and then he got hot.

What exactly do people who think the Cubs should be getting more for Korey expect in return? Kicking him out the backdoor for nothing is an indictment of the Cub organizaiton only in the fact that there goes another highly touted position player who was never really very good. Sadly, he's the best of the recent crop up until now.

Felix Pie? No pressure, babe. Just keep hackin'. What could possibly go wrong?

Lock the thread! Unconscious level of witty retorts today, I laughed out loud at a half dozen responses. The Hebner quip=classic.

I saw an I-Cub game with K-Pat last summer. If I remember correctly, he struck out on a pitch at his shoulders, infield single, bloop single, infield fly out, was thrown out at home on a tag up, and returned the favor with a rocket throw home later in the game. So he did bat .500 but never had a solid AB. Still I don't really see the point of getting rid of, at worst, a really good young defensive replacement for next to nothing.

Milky--#99--I would not have done the same thing, and here's why--I happen to feel a little like the moneyball idea is true, that any reliever can pitch the ninth, well, several times, and become a "closer", (see Lidge, Brad, Baez, Danys et al). BUT, I also believe firmly there is pressure, psychological and yet very real, involved with closing the game out, because the teams and fans have put it there.

I don't have the stats in front of me, maybe someone can help me out, but Min had already tried hawk closing, briefly, and he sucked, terribly, when compared with his setup nos. Having seen that, I woudn't have wasted the time jamming him in a closer's role he obviously couldn't handle.

CPat at worst isn't a good defensive replacement. he managed to screw up in the field a decent amount last year, too. Face it, could CPat still be good somewhere, someday, maybe even really good? Yes. After what has transgressed (manny, that means "happened") the past years, will it ever be with the Cubs? No. So getting what we can for him from a team that wants him is the best we can do, and a smart move. My question is, I thought the m's gm had a hardon for corey, couldn't we maybe get something better from them?

yes, manny, if you're still here, that was a cheap shot, [DELETED] I ranted awhile back on why I hate DB, it came from '03, I can probably find it in the archive if you like. Bottom line--dusty's overrated. Deal with it.

That attack against Manny was completely unnecessary, and completely inappropriate. Who cares if you disagree with what Manny says - attack what he says, not him.

And Manny is correct in saying that people have overreacted regarding the Macias situation. Was he misused? I say so, but not nearly as badly as people around here make it out to be.

Tony:
"yes, manny, if you're still here, that was a cheap shot, [DELETED] I ranted awhile back on why I hate DB, it came from '03, I can probably find it in the archive if you like. Bottom line--dusty's overrated. Deal with it."

Tony, I am here and ain't going anywhere. [DELETED] But it is hard to teach people manners and class.

We are only in the offseason and these personal attacks are starting to happen everyday, TOTALLY UNPROVOKED. I hope TCR starts to gain control soon.

Have a good day, Tony!!!

Thanks Dave...

I deleted what I thought was inappropriate.

Resist the urge to go after the messenger, go after the message.

I've seen Anderson play here in Chattanooga (along with Adam Greenburg when he had a stint with the Diamondbacks).

http://www.gomudcats.com/Player%20Pics%20Page...

wow, urlacher won top defensive honors. The whole defense was so damn good I figured they'd ignore the individual parts. You could make a good argument for Brown, Vasher, Harris or Briggs. But Urlacher is the leader, so kudos to him.

Btw, please stop using the term "j--- off" manny. I know you feel people are going after you unjustly, but stooping to their level isn't going to help the situation.

and to be clear, the far greater injustice is the folks personally attacking him in the first place. So knock it off.

I am lisenting to Kap right now and he is saying that Cpat to the O's is not a done deal. Appartently 2 teams called Hendry today and offered a better prospect than the O's. One of the teams is the Red Sox he did not know the 2nd.

way to go hendry, use that media to your advantage.

That's right Rob. SCREW YOUR SPORTING NEWS!!!! Calling Urlacher overrated. IMO The Sporting News became irrelevant once the internet was invented.

By the way, I am here to announce that Brian Urlacher is my favorite athlete in the world. I still love Sammy but since he no longer is on a team I needed a new one. AND I'm no bandwagon jumper, I;ve had an Urlacher jersey since August 2001 (got it for my birthday).

WHOOPS! I mean screw YOU sporting news. Not screw YOUR.

the only 2 jerseys I own, Prior and Urlacher. And I take that shit seriously.

I have two Bears and two Cubs, wanna guess who?

You have one of the answers already...

Current, recently current or does this include all-time as well?

I know it's gotta be Sosa, my other guess is Prior.

Urlacher and no idea, haven't talked to you about football enough.

I did once own a Neal Anderson jersey, but I was young and foolish. If I was a rich man, I'd own Prior, Sandberg, Banks, Payton, Singletary and Urlacher. I'd seriously consider a Zambrano jersey as well.

Come on man! Kerry Wood!! and Walter Payton. but of course Sammy.

And Rob if youre interested in football talk, I like Windycitygridiron.com

Really good layout, lets anyone post polls, and create own personal diaries, AND lets your reply to specific posts...hint..hint...

I'll check it out sometime, thanks. I certainly should stop hijacking these comments with the football talk, it's even one of my own pet peeves. Although it doesn't bother me as much during the off-season.

Kap is saying the Cubs might get a top 5 or 6 prospect in someone's system. Number 5 and 6 on the O's list at BA was RHRP Chris Ray and LHP Garrett Olsen and Bos was MI Dustin Pedroia and CF Jacoby Ellsbury. Out of those 4 who would you guys want. Me personally I would want Pedroia he can be our starting 2b by mid year. at AA he put up 324/409/508/917 he was brought up to AAA and struggled going 255/356/382/738. Him and Cedeno could be the 2nd coming of Kessinger and Beckert.

Pedroia is a fine prospect, he'd be a good catch. I still like Val Majewski with Baltimore though a bit more.

You have to figure Seattle is likely the other AL team interested in Patterson, they've expressed an interest in the past and they need a CF. What do their prospects look like?

For the record re: the above, I have signed and framed jerseys from Banks, Jenkins, Dawson, Sandberg and Williams. No Sosa.

Wow. Okay, I'll make this as quick as I can. I want to personally apologize to Manny. It was cheap and unfair of me to attack you personally, and I'm sorry. I also want to apologize to anyone else who took offense, and commend Rob G. for editing as he sees fit.

That said, my issue, however poorly stated, is this--while I agree many people, here and elsewhere, have a blind, and often unsupported dislike for a player/personality (a la Macias), it is just as egregious an error to pledge blind allegiance to the same. I understand I haven't been "attending" this site very long, but it seems almost every issue or move we discuss devolves, often needlessly, into who's more wrong, Dusty Baker or Jim Hendry. While I absolutely love the Cubs, and enjoy healthy debate, immediately jumping to "who sucks worse" just to make sure you get your digs in first is counterproductive, and very frustrating.

no way they'd get chris ray...he's a hell of a fastball pitcher and had a nice callup last season for them.

personally, i have no idea what patterson is worth in this market. CF'rs dont grow on trees, especially with patterson's potential...but he's coming off a god awful year and is gonna get 3+m.

Someone will spring for Patterson. There are GMs that see the tools, his 26 year old birth certificate, and the 770 OPS he had in 2004 and take a chance on him. If you're Boston, you can bury him in the 9 spot and live with his defense and 30 SBs and be somewhat happy. The Red Sox aren't going to the playoffs in 2006 anyway, they should be willing to take a chance on someone like Corey. 2006 will be a transitional year for the Sox.

I see it as just sad that the Cubs had to reach a point where we have to give up Patterson for a minor leaguer. I don't see it as just a Corey being too stubborn-to-adjust thing or just a Dusty misused him thing, I see some of both and overall a mess that is oh so Cubbish in nature, another makes me wanna scream moment in Cubs history. So now Murton is viewed, it seems, as some kind of sure thing, based on last year's impressive but limited sampling. This is just me and I admit I could be completely wrong, but I'd keep the guy, let him engage in some healthy competition with Murton for playing time in LF and see what happens. Let him be the 4th OF with opportunity for advancement if warranted, rather than ditch him for a mid-level prospect. Additionally, the whole Macias thing is way overdone, the guy was no worse than the average 25th man and he doesn't decide where he's placed in the lineup when he does play-let the man "rest in peace".

"They knew we would say, "should have called TheDude TheDork"!

Amazing the pin isn't hitting the map on Halsted St. for 'TheDude'.

He's so lavender."

TA,
What the hell is your problem??? Sorry my pic wasnt a drunken picture in the bleachers, etc. but I was on my laptop at school, had one picture from a bachelor party over Christmas break and really had no idea that it was a big deal what picture of myself i posted on The Cub Reporter Frappr.

As for Halstead St. and being "lavender", maybe I'm just some dumb coal-mining dork from the hick state of West "by god" Virginia, but I really have no idea what either of those statements mean.

If you wanna get on here and make smart ass comments about my picture thats fine, but at least 1) post your own picture and 2) post with a real email address.

But I'm glad you get your kicks making fun of a 23 year old stranger's picture on a Chicago Cubs internet message board... I hope I can be as cool as you one day.

well as sad as it is that patterson, once a highly touted prospect, is being traded for a mid-level prospect...it shouldnt be lost that he's being shopped for a 4th OF spot for someone or competiting for a spot at best.

and yeah...hopefully something was learned. hopefully that's what we're seeing with pie, but given hendry said pie would have been brought up last year mid-season i dunno what to think.

i guess if they intend to rush pie, the next level of prospect sanity check falls on ryan harvey.

The standard Manny defense strategy....

Say something outrageous and stupid. Invite himself to be attacked.

Then claim it was totally unprovoked, and he is the victim.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

I sure do love everytime how he wants TCR do something about all these people who attack him unprovoked. What is it up to now? 105 people? 264 people?

I guess it is all just coincidence all these people say such things. You never bring it upon yourself. Your the saint, everyone else is the asshole.

I guess that is just the way it is huh? In your world...........

MIKEC-
You gonna take my bet big shot??? Go to the previous thread...Over/Under on Prior arbitration.

Sadly, MIKEC they learn from you how to be classless. You still own the title, so don't worry.

And please show me where I provoked the personal attack...PLEASE!!!! I would love for you to find one case where I stated calling someone names.

GATTI GATTI

Manny--I didn't call you names. What's the Prior bet, or where can I find it?

Tony:
"Manny--I didn't call you names."

I never said YOU did, YOU just unprokingly attacked me, but others have called me names. And I do accept you apology and hope we can have nice civil debates on topics that we differ. Thanks!!

What's the Prior bet, or where can I find it?

Basically MIKEC thinks Prior will get $11M in arbitration/salary this year. I think it will be $5M. The bet and relevent posts are on the "Nicve Guys Finish Last" thread from January 5th. The relevent posts around post #40.

ok. I read up. No, Prior wouldn't make over $8m in arbitration, it just doesn't happen, especially considering the number of starts he's made the past 2 seasons. I think it's also relevant to mention the whole "we don't go to arbitration" mentality. They'll sign him to a 1 yr, $5-6m deal to avoid arbitration. See also

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sport...

Tony-
Of course we don't go to arbitration., which is a GREAT thing Hendry does, maybe his best. There is no need for the management to sit in a room and knock their own player. Nothing good comes out of it.

But, the bet was designed as whatever he makes next year either through arbitration, 1 year deal or long term deal.

Manny, I think that you sometimes run into problems because your style is to aggressively criticize the opinions of others in an unprovoked way, which sometimes borders on ridicule. People feel compelled to fire back at you, and sometimes they make the mistake of attacking you personally. You then play the victim card, which, ironically, fires people up against you even more.

This is all too bad, because you often have a lot to offer, and this style gets in the way of your message.

'If the Cubs can just rid themselves of Pattersonís salary, Iíll consider it a good trade no matter who we get in return. ' Rob G.

Probably the dumbest single statement I've seen by one of the TCR staff. The Cubs could have rid themselves of Patterson's salary by simply not offering him arbitration.

Translation: I would prefer we had Chan Ho Park for 13 million in 2006.

I understand you're a Cubs fan, and by nature have a 'what-have-you-done-for-me-lately' mentality, but try to pretend that a clue occasionly comes into your possession.

Neal--ouch, that was a little rough.

There are 2 valid sides to the cpat discussion. could he still be a good, maybe even really good player in the majors? Yes. Is there a snowball's chance in hell it'll be with the cubs? No. And are most fans sick and tired of being let down by the situation and led to believe he's the next greatest thing only to be disappointed? Absolutely, and I'm one of them. In context, and with common sense (which often times isn't) applied, that statement makes sense, and I agree with it. Here's a perfectly healthy example of absolutely wasted potential for $3m or so, I'll take something slightly respectable in return. Obviously, I'll get what I can, but I'm not expecting much, and corey's time with this organization, as much a shame as it is, is long since done.

and the punchline to the whole thing? It's not unreasonable, if not from a business sense than from baseball sense, in some people's opinion, to keep him on this year to come off the bench or fill in in case of injury. Hendry may yet be one of those people, patterson's not traded yet

Yeah that was a little rough, sorry was drunk.

It's definetly a top 20er though.

Getting a bit tired of all this CP hatred. Wasn't he our best regular in 2003 before he got hurt? Didn't he hit an 8th or 9th inning HR and then another in extra innings to win a game for us down the stretch in '04?

Remember the down year that Clemens had in 1996? The Red Sox let him go, how did that turn out? Sometimes you've got to cut a player some slack. Thank God the internet wasn't around in (much) in 1988, you guys would have run Sandberg out of town too.

#130 of 148: By chifan3887 (January 6, 2006 06:28 PM)
Kap is saying the Cubs might get a top 5 or 6 prospect in someone's system. Number 5 and 6 on the O's list at BA was RHRP Chris Ray and LHP Garrett Olsen and Bos was MI Dustin Pedroia and CF Jacoby Ellsbury. Out of those 4 who would you guys want.

CHIFAN3887: Dustin Pedroia. And I'd give up both Corey Patterson AND Eric Patterson to get him, too, except I doubt the Red Sox would trade Pedroia even for BOTH of the Pattersons.

Jacoby Ellsbury can't be traded until his first professional anniversary sometime next Summer, but I like him, too (but nowhere near as much as Pedroia), certainly better than anybody the Orioles have (other than Nick Markakis, and the O's aren't going to trade him).

Hendry's insistence to trade Walker really bugs the hell out of me...

From the Suntimes:

"But Cubs fans can be assured that general manager Jim Hendry is concentrating on dealing both Patterson and infielder Todd Walker, who had been the Cubs' starting second baseman. Walker said toward the end of last season that he sensed he probably had fallen from favor with the club powers-that-be. Neifi Perez is the projected starting second baseman for '06.

Neither Patterson nor Walker fits in the team's plans next season as a backup, and it has long been in the team's overall strategy to move both of them out of Chicago."

Well in light of some of the other comments on the board, Rob G's reads like scripture.

'I predict that Corey will have some initial success for the Orioles at first. Then, as AL pitchers read the 3 word scouting report on him, (FACE HIGH FASTBALL) that success will tail off and the Orioles will be looking to clear him their roster this time next year.'Eric W,

Yeah it's a shame that they invented the high fastball in 2005.

'He sucked at AAA this year when he was miles and miles away from Baker.' CHI####

Help me out here, was it the .297 average, the .366 OBP or the .505 slugging percentage that sucked? Oh oh, I see it now! It must have been the 86% success rate on steals.

So I'm just now reading Moneyball, and I get to thinking wow Korey Patterson sounds a hell of alot like a young Billy Beane. All Tools no mental skills. And if you're rating players with tools shouldn't you consider a "mental tool"?

Holy Smokes!

Phil Rodgers is reading Baseball Prospectus. Not suprisingly he's using it incorrectly by evaluating a player based on VORP instead of WARP, but at least he's trying! Now if we could just get BP to fix their stats...

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sport...

433:
"People feel compelled to fire back at you, and sometimes they make the mistake of attacking you personally."

That is their problem, not mine. I don't attack them, I attack their ideas. Totally different. I ain't changing my style...

MIKEC attacks peoples take very hard, including mine many times, but unless he personally attack me I don't call him names and personally attack him, why can't he and others? Oh well...

I have to agree with Manny again, and honestly, it doesn't happen often.

I disagree with what Manny says most of the time. I have no idea where or why he gets some of his ideas. But at least he talks about baseball!!

I do not recall ever seeing Manny attack a person, at least not before he is attacked. Sure, Manny responds to personal attacks with personal attacks at times, but wouldn't you?

Are we really incapable of having a discussion without falling into immature personal attacks?

Dave (Big Low)-
I know I shouldn't even acknowledge the attacks, but it gets old. And people say if you ignore them they will go away, well obviously that isn't the case and TCR isn't really going to do anything about it, so I think bringing more attention to the personal attacks will hopefully make people like you and the other Dave get fed up with it and start calling out those attackers.

I think we all agree that personal attacks are bad and have no place here. But Manny, many times your attacks on people's ideas are so strong and pointed that they border on personal. Your clear implication, many times, is "anybody who believes that is a moron" -- which is very different than simply disagreeing with someone.

Again, I'm not saying this to pick on you. I just think that your forceful attacks often pick fights and get in the way of your message.

433:
"But Manny, many times your attacks on people's ideas are so strong and pointed that they border on personal. Your clear implication, many times, is "anybody who believes that is a moron" -- which is very different than simply disagreeing with someone."

Well I am sorry you interpret my posts that way, because that is not what they say. Try not and read into my posts more than just the points I am arguing or saying. that might help you and others stop jumping to inaccurate conclusions of what my posts mean. Just go by what they actually say.

"I just think that your forceful attacks often pick fights and get in the way of your message."

Firstly, I don't attack people. By you using that word it brings up a very misleading indication of what my posts are. The posts you call "attacks" are just me arguing against that persons thoughts, ideas, etc. I think people don't like their points picked apart or diagreed with, and that is why they personally attack most of the time. And since I am one of the few who doesn't have a problem with Dusty, I am the minority, and thus get attacked. You are only trying to justify them by what you are saying. I don't agree.

'And since I am one of the few who doesn't have a problem with Dusty, I am the minority, and thus get attacked.'MannyT

You don't get 'attacked', because you have a minority opinion. You get attacked because of illogical things you say.

The fact that Dusty mis-uses his personell can't be rationally argued away. Every single legitimate baseball analyst will tell you that Dusty consistantly gets out-managed by his opposition and that he is very poor at using his players to best advantage. The fact that you ignore this, when any reasonable human being would at least acknowledge it and then point to Dusty's strengths to defend him, really undermines your credibility.

An analogy if I may:
Two plus two is five. Two plus two is five. Two plus two is five. Two plus two is five. Two plus two is five. Three plus three is six. Two plus two is five. Two plus two is five.

By repeateded showing my inability to do simple arithmatic - when I do make a correct statement it's impossible to determine if it was luck or if I really know how to add.

Manny, you're walking around with a T-shirt that says '2+2=5', and can't figure out why no one wants you for a math tutor.

Funny analogy...

But you say:
"You don't get 'attacked', because you have a minority opinion. You get attacked because of illogical things you say."

And I say why should anyone get persoanlly attacked?? Just argue against what I am saying. Seems simple to me, but maybe not.

Manny, here's an example of what Im talking about. You were comment #1 on a Dec. 20 Comment thread, making your point that the Cubs overpaid for JJones. At the end of that comment you added an unsolicited "idea attack" of John Hill's thoughts about signing DLee to an extension. It was rude and goofy. To me, it was a glaring example of how you attack others' ideas in a rude way, but somehow think of it as healthy debate or something. This is the abrasive manner that I'm talking about.

And by the way, I'm not suggesting that you change -- only that you understand that you are setting yourself up as a target when you do this stuff.

Here's the relavant part of your post I'm referring to (and bear in mind it's post #1 from that thread):

Mannytrillo:
"3 years $16M for Jones....HA HA

And we lost a draft pick because he was offered arbitration. Nothing like getting raked over the coals when you are vulnerable. Congrats to Jones Agent. He desereves his fee for this one.

We just gave $5.33M per year for Jones and John Hill thinks it is fair to offer Lee $7M per year."

It's not an out and out personal attack, but it's a comment filled with ridicule that you know will pick a fight (and that's what happened).

To AZ Phil, et. al. - Soriano?

Phil: Thanks for the comments re Soriano earlier today.

It is odd that Todd Walker has fallen out of favor. His fielding range is poor, I will admit - but I would think his lifetime BA would liook good to the team as it stands now. Contact hitter - some pop, harder to strike out - LEFTY! I suppose, like many of us, I am looking for a glimmer of encouragement that Mr. Hendry will be able to really add more value to the somewhat strange mix of players that are currently on the roster now. Also, I am SO SICK of having sat through 50,000 White Sox tv promos on Comcast Sports during the Holiday weeks! I am not really a Sox hater - just "Blue" with envy.

Is it possible that Cub's GM will make a move of consequence before Cubs Convention?

5,

I don't know if your still reading this thread, but that's almost exactly what I said shortly after reading that book a couple of months ago. I also said that Corey Patterson was EXACTLY the player that Beane would never draft or sign.

chad,
Must have missed that post. So I agree 100% with that. Even though you have to wonder whether or not Beane might have a soft spot for a reclamation project like that.

he would, if we pick up the tab. if you keep reading, he loves 'damaged goods'.

The Braves were winning. Kyle Farnsworth, who has been dominant as Braves closer was in
I feel a bond with Farnsworth since he is both an ex-Cub and a hot piece of fucking ass. I didn't know Farnsworth had given up a 325 foot grand slam in the eighth already.[DELETED]

That's the scariest thing I've read in a while.

Real Neal,

You make a good point about arbitration on Korey, although your "Translation" was possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. How is getting rid of Korey's salary somehow equated to adding $10 to $11 million in Chan Ho Park's salary?

I had already mentioned that we'd be getting some mid-level prospect, so my statement that "I'll consider it a good trade no matter who we get in return", was based off the fact that we will get someone in return and it will be someone the Cubs brass likes. Who that actual individual was doesn't matter to me as much as getting rid of the salary, but I knew we were getting somebody in the deal.

My crystal ball tells me Korey is done, he should be getting better at this age and he's getting worse and his inability to adjust his game at every level of the way, tells me he's a lost cause. Maybe I'll end up being wrong...

I warned you in another post critic, but stop going after people. I deleted part of your post.

Rob G,

It's important to say what you mean. When you say 'If the Cubs can just rid themselves of Pattersonís salary, Iíll consider it a good trade no matter who we get in return.' I understand about context but it's impossible to tell from that sentence what context you mean. It could be interpreted as 'The Cubs are going to get a mid-level prospect for CP, which is OK by me' or it could mean 'The Cubs are trading CP for a mid-level prospect. I don't care who in all of baseball the Cubs trade CP for, it's a good deal'

If you had said, 'If the Cubs can just rid themselves of Pattersonís salary, Iíll consider it a good trade no matter which or what level prospect we get in return.', which apparently is what you meant I could understand that point of view. I think it's the point of view of a fan, and not a GM, but it's certainly a valid one.

With Sosa gone and CP gone, I am wondering who you guys are going to boo next year,though. Maybe I'll send Maddux some earplugs.

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