Hall of Fame 2006, Cubbie Style

Congratulations to ex-Cub reliever Bruce Sutter, just elected to the Hall of Fame. The rest of the ex-Cub candidates didn't fare as well -- Andre Dawson, Goose Gossage, and Lee Smith missed the cut, and Rick Aguilera, Gary Gaetti, and Doug Jones received less than 5% and fell off the ballot. I'm happy to see Sutter get in. He's deserving both as an innovator (he was the first great practicioner of the split-fingered fastball) and due to his performance on the field, and his election makes me hopeful that we're seeing the beginning of a re-eveluation of the pitchers of the first great relief era. I don't know if guys like Smith and Gossage deserve to be in the Hall or not, but I do know that they need to be examined through a lens that isn't distorted by the one-inning-only, 40+ save statistics being put up by today's closers. The complete results, with ex-Cubs in bold:
Bruce Sutter 400 76.9
----- 390 Votes Needed For Election -----
Jim Rice 337 64.8
Rich Gossage 336 64.6
Andre Dawson 317 61.0
Bert Blyleven 277 53.3
Lee Smith 234 45.0
Jack Morris 214 41.2
Tommy John 154 29.6
Steve Garvey 135 26.0
Alan Trammell 92 17.7
Dave Parker 76 14.4
Dave Concepcion 65 12.5
Don Mattingly 64 12.3
Orel Hershiser 58 11.2
Dale Murphy 56 10.8
Albert Belle 40 7.7
----- 26 Votes Needed to Stay on Ballot -----
Will Clark 23 4.4
Dwight Gooden 17 3.3
Willie McGee 12 2.3
Hal Morris 5 1.0
Ozzie Guillen 5 1.0
Gary Gaetti 4 0.8
John Wetteland 4 0.8
Rick Aguilera 3 0.6
Doug Jones 2 0.4
Greg Jefferies 2 0.4
Walt Weiss 1 0.2
Gary DiSarcina 0 0.0
Alex Fernandez 0 0.0
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Comments

Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuceee!!

Hopefully he is going in with Cubbie Blue on.

Gregg Jefferies, 2 votes????

I saw Sutter during his entire career, during his Cub years and most of his Cardinals career he was as dominant a reliever that ever lived. He also dominated several all-star games, and I remember watching those with my father on tv and being amazed. I think one of those years, 76 or 77, I'd have to look it up, he struck out 3 all stars on 9 pitches without even a foul ball.

BTW, Mike Murphy on the Score was reminiscing about Sutter being traded away by Wrigley because of money, what else, but that it was a young Andy McFail in the front office who suggested to Wrigley the Cubs offer 350k in arbitration, and Sutter's agent asked for 700k. The Judge ruled in Sutter's behalf, and Wrigley immedietely traded him to the Cardinals.

Gregg Jefferies, 2 votes????

--

That makes you think Jefferies and his wife each found a way to vote!

Rob, the bottom of the ballot is always a funny place. What's weirder, two votes for Jeffries, or 4 for The Rat? Or *5* for the Ozzeroo??

I think 5 votes for Hal Morris is pretty wierd, too.

it was just particularly puzzling, I figured Guillen would get some votes cause of his high profile from last year, Gaetti had some post-season success (or at least postseason exposure), but Jefferies was just plain and simply crap. Of course, a lot of bitterness is due to the fact that I had 4 or 5 of his Donruss rookie cards when he's set to be the next big thing. Just as glaring is that Will Clark only got 23 votes. Wasn't he once considered one of the best 1b in the game? The travesty that is Alan Trammell bugs me too.

4 votes for Gaetti isn't too terrible. He did have 360 career homers and a few all-star games. But anyone that voted for Jefferies should have his voting privaleges removed.

I'm kind of surprised Will Clark will fall off the ballot after his first try. I don't think he did quite enough to get in, but he certainly deserves deep consideration.

"But anyone that voted for Jefferies" --

It's no joke, that if you play in NY you will get recognition even though not deserved.

That has to be two Ny writers who voted.

Dawson, Goose, both picked up about 50 more votes this year, while Blyleven got 66 more.

Hopefully that means they only need one or two more years of waiting before they're "Hall Worthy"

who is in next year? Ill say

Ripken
gwynn
Mcroids
Rice

next year will be a 4 player vote in

I dunno Bleeding Blue, I think it was because it was a a year when there weren't any high profile candidates.

Next year Gwynn, Ripken and McGwire are up. I think Goose deserves it, I've always been on the fence with Dawson.

Congrats to Bruce Sutter! He replaced Rick Monday as my favorite Cub after Monday was traded in 1977. Without his 1.34 ERA campaign in 1977, I might have dove even further into Blackhawkdom.

Look at his 1977 numbers:

107 1/3 innings, 129 strikeouts, 23 walks, and 5 home runs. Wow!

I find it amazing that Albert Belle got 40 votes to Will Clark's 23. Neither deserves to be in the Hall but I see them as relatively equal.

I'd bet that Goose makes it next year. Now that Sutter's in, its kind of hard to keep him out.

I agree that the lack of good 1st year candidates boosted numbers, but I don't think those players will lose votes.

Hopefully seeing McGwire on the ballot will make some voters take another look at players like Dawson who played in the pre-roid era.

What? Walt Weiss only got one vote? What a joke! The guy should be in by now.

13 years is the charm...

seriously, though...rice with 65% and blyleven with 53%...that's bullsh*t.

bly getting shafted is one thing, but a stinking LF/DH (he didnt even play LF that well) with 65% of the vote...whatever.

i keep having to remind myself that this is the same HOF that says gary carter was worthy recently.

Hawk should be a no brainer hall of famer.
2,774 hits
438 dingers in a low power era
314 stolen bases, despite bum knees most of his career
Rookie of the year, MVP (for a last place team), 8 time all star and 8 gold gloves.

Pretty badassed resume.

Funny enough, I think Greg Jeffries was the youngest player in the histroy of the game to reach 1,000 hits. Too bad he fizzled so soon... I'd say we have a decent chance to see a Cub cap in Sutter. He played one year longer with the Cubs, came up with the Cubs, owes his success to Fred Martin and won his Cy Young with the Cubs. We've honored him on our Team of the Century and had him back as a Guest Conductor-so who knows? The difference maker is probably that insignificant World Series ring, however...

hi world.

my name is bert.

i had a 22 year career, which including my first callup at age 19 and my declining years at 39/41, that averaged 225ip a season. take out those years and its closer to 240ip a season over 19 years.

3.31 era...287/250 w/l record...3701Ks playing for some of the worst baseball teams on the 70s and 80s except for a 3-year stint in pittsberg.

yeah, i didnt get along with the media, but i showed up and threw one of the most devistating curves of my era.

now let me in the HOF so i can quit making excuses for why i'm not that disappointed about being shafted yearly. =p

Hawk is getting the shaft.

Too many years in Montreal, should of went to Mets like Carter, and he would have been first ballot.

What happen to 3000k's and you're in?
Bert is getting shafted also.

As long as were lifting up the guys getting shafted, the all time saves leader, Mr. Lee Smith, and the 80's winningest pitcher, Jack Morris, should not be on the outside looking in either.

Ripken might set a vote % record next year, which is cool.

3.31 era...287/250 w/l record...3701Ks playing for some of the worst baseball teams on the 70s and 80s except for a 3-year stint in pittsberg

You didn't even mention his 4-1 record with a 2.41 ERA in his 3 postseasons (70 and 87 MN, 79 Pit)

Bly rocks. HoF voters need to start circling his name.

I believe based on the new, "Wade Boggs" rules, Sutter goes in as a Cub because he played the most big league games in a Cub uniform. He may have won a World Series in St Louis, but his best years were for us. Those all-star games, incredible, and of course, he's a Cy Young winner. He wears a blue C in Cooperstown.

This makes the Cubs a rarity there too--there is now at least one Cub in the HOF from every position and role with a big league ballclub. From executive, to manager, to the 8 field positions, to starting and now, relief pitching. How can an organization with so many great players over the years have had so little team success??

1989

Cub fans who were around in 1989 will never forget the hitters' duel between Will Clark (.650) and Mark Grace (.647) in the Championship Series.

I'm shocked that Will Clark has dropped off the ballot. It's like his career has fallen into a collective memory hole or something. Just not right.

Clark was a dominating player for 15 seasons with a lifetime BA of .303 who finished his career off at age 36 hitting .319/.418/.546/.964 in 130 games! Picked up by the Cardinals during their pennant run that year he went 10/29 with 2 HR and 5 RBI in 8 playoff games.

But THE REAL TRAVESTY will be if BERT BLYLEVEN does not get into the Hall of Fame. Unfortunately he spent most of his long-g-g-g career off the national sportswriters' radar pitching for teams they didn't care about.

Like Will Clark, he was great right up to the end , going 17-5 for the California Angels in 1989. He led the staff the staff that year, pitching 241 innings to go along with a 2.73 ERA in his 20th season.

A remarkable athlete, after retiring at age 39 he made a comeback at age 41 and started 25 games for the Angels before retiring for good with 287 wins.

If anyone left on this list deserves to be in the HoF it's Bert Blyleven. I sure hope he makes it.
He was one of the best ever.

I kind of doubt that Sutter will be going into the Hall as a Cub. He played five seasons here, four in St. Louis, and three in Atlanta. His only post-season appearance was in 1982 with St. Louis, when he pitched in the world series. His best year in terms of saves was in St. Louis in 1984. He won most of his awards, fireman of the year etc, while playing for the Cardinals. So it may be a close call but I am guessing he will not be going in wearing Cubbie blue.

I'm a little surprised that Clark got so few votes. I don't think he was good enough, long enough to deserve making the Hall, but I certainly thought he would get enough votes to stay on the ballot for a while.

The other one that surprises me for how poorly he does is Dale Murphy. I mean 2 MVPs, several gold gloves, just under 400 career HRs in the 70's and 80's, and he only gets 10% of the vote! His numbers took a dive in the 90's, but he certainly was one of the best in the game for most of the 80's.

I'm so disgusted by the H.O.F. One can only wonder what is going through the minds of these guys when they are casting a ballot. How guys like Rice, Blyleven, Dawson, & Santo are not in is wrong.

Now I'm happy for Sutter--but if he got in, then why not Smith and Gossage? The double standards kill me.

Blyleven should probably be in, but for a guy who played for so long, he never hit the magic 300 win mark and that weighs heavy with the writers. He accumulated some nice looking stats, but he did it by pitching for a long time. He had a poor winning percentage, never won a Cy Young, never won an ERA title and never led the league in wins. Plus, Blyleven was never considered the best pitcher of his era, let alone one of the best ever. I still think he should be in, especially since lesser pitchers like Sutton & Perry are.

bly pitched for some of the crappiest teams around for almost all but 1/4th of his career even with generous estimates on judging a team's value.

no, he wasnt dominating, but he showed up for 2 decades throwing 200-300ip pretty steady and though sportswriters wont give him credit sometimes, his curve was one of the top in the game in his era.

i mean, its not tommy john we're talking about here.

the HOF is so weird with its standards as it is...i dont really see a reason for him to continously be overlooked.

hell, even today the sportscasters are staying away from even mentioning him. i havent heard ESPN-News say a word about him all afternoon.

I almost drove my car into oncoming traffic this morning when I had to listen to Colin Cowherd try to make a convincing case for Jose Canseco being in the HOF because it's the Hall of FAME and who's more FAMOUS then Jose Canseco.

These people have radio shows...

Ripken and Gwynn will be the only two guys who get in next year. Sutter got in this year due to a "weak" class (still think Dawson should go, and Rice is arguable). No way does McGwire get in on his first try, post-roids era.

I am surprised of the amount of people who are so leniant (sp?) in letting people into the Hall. In the past the Hall obviously let people in that they wish weren't now. So instead of lowering the standards to those few players who really aren't deserving (and thus letting MORE players in who aren't deserving), they are basically setting new standards, all the while, keeping with the old standards in mind, but being more forceful with them.

I am very glad to see what they did with the Veterans Committee and that voters have finally really gotten tight with their selections.

I personally think they should drop the number of entiries allowed to be filled in on the ballot per year from 10 down to 5. There is no way 10 people are deserving of going into the HOF every year.

Congrats to Sutter!!!

Rob G., I come to places like this to get away from the train wreck that is Colin Cowherd. I, too, heard him this morning, and his analogy that a hall of famer is like a beautiful woman, everybody knows. Don't need no stat geeks telling us what his OPS is. His other half-***ed remark: if you can say one sentence about them, they belong. Ryne Sandberg - 2nd greatest 2nd baseman ever. Don Mattingly - they called him Donnie Baseball. I'm not making this stuff up. I change the station, and then I return. The lord only knows why. I need XM bad. It's a long drive to work.

MannyTrillo...

Not to be standoffish, but I'm curious what HOFers you think don't deserve to be there.

normally I switch him off too once he stops talking about football, but I was frozen in a state of disbelief. Sort of like a car wreck, you just kind of have to listen. With the new move and the new drive, I'll be getting XM before April.

Congrats, Rob. Would love to hear what's available on ESPNRADIO. Here in Socal it's been a steady decline from Tony K. (wonderful), to Mike and Mike (tolerable) to the Herd (unbearable).

I've had XM since the start of last season, and its great. Even in the off season its nice to have MLB Home Plate - the 24Hr Baseball Talk channel. Of course you can still hear disturbingly stupid comments on there.

Last week a guy they interviewed, who has a HoF vote, said he didn't vote for Andre Dawson because he wasn't clutch enough and quote "it's easier to get RBIs when you play for a losing team."

Borowski4life:
"Not to be standoffish, but I'm curious what HOFers you think don't deserve to be there."

There are now 261 people in the HOF, including umpires, Negro Leaguers, maanger, executives and players. And without going into great depth of research to pick certain players I have problems with, here are three off the top of my head from the past 20 years:

-Nellie Fox
-Luis Aparicio
-Bill Mazeroski

Re: Post #17

Good pro-Dawson HOF arguments. I'd like to add something between the statistical lines. Before he joined the Cubs, Dawson was an all-catagory "Oh, crap. It's him again!" players. That is, he was one of those disruptive players who defied normal expectations so often in all catagories of play that I found myself saying that to myself over and over again. E.g., on defense, a routine sac fly became a double play, a liner in the gap became an out or held to a single, a single to right turned into an out at first base (I saw that one myself), and the cutoff man was always hit when called for. He was the last person you wanted to see come up to bat against you. In baserunning, he was sliding safely into second base on way too many "singles" or made it there anyway by stealing. He was always smart and he was always looking for (and finding) an edge he could use to beat you. (He remained that good after joining the Cubs -- only then the thought became, "thank goodness we have him").

In the mid-90's, people used to say that Sosa was less valuable that his statistics, i.e., he did too many dumb things (baserunning mistakes, throwing mistakes, etc.) that negated the contribution implied by his more impressive batting stats. Dawson was just the opposite. He did so many smart things that his even his impressive statistics failed to adequately reflect the value of his play. His mere presence in the field or at the plate or on the bases was enough to make the other team change how they did things and become more cautious and nervous. In that way, he was like Roberto Clemente, a player so much greater than his 3,000 hits implied.

Andre Dawson tilted the odds of the game in his team's favor in so many ways that aren't reflected by the stats. If more HOF voters saw him play, he would have been in the Hall long before now (another victim of spending most of his career out of the national and/or postseason limelight in Montreal and Chicago). I can't believe he hasn't made it before now. During his career, everybody (and I mean EVERYBODY) called him a certain HOFer.

Calvin is a jerk, plain and simple, who dislikes baseball, so whenever he starts talking about it I change the station.

That said, there's something to the Hall of FAME, not Hall of Good Stats. Everyone knows about Tommy John, but not necessarily because of his actual baseball career. Does he belong in?

Nice call on Sutter, in any event. I really didn't think he'd make it in this time or next. I assume the Veterans' Committee will take care of the Santo Situation.

#41 JoePepitone hit it square on the head, Hawk was replete with all the tools it takes to win ballgames, even those not routinely or easily quantified. Our stomachs roiled every time he came up to bat, just from his fierce determined look; it signaled that By God, he was here to carry the team on his back if necessary (and it was- but he NEVER said as much). You always watched intently to see what was going to happen, because most often, something DID, and this was on a pretty sorry team. And he made some personal salary concession I recall, in order to come to Wrigley, and get onto grass and off the turf, to spare his legs.

And yes our HOF convictions were certainly stoked at the time by the remarkable MVP-on-a-last-place-team, which at the time seemed ample proof that his skills were for the ages, and transcended his surroundings. Any other instances of MVP-on-a-LPT? Any of those get to HOF?

"I assume the Veterans' Committee will take care of the Santo Situation."

They haven't so far. I can't say I'm optimistic. As A Cubs fan, I really hope he makes it. As a baseball fan with some knowledge, I think he deserves it.

Yea...Cowherd is bad. I heard him this morning also.

The funny thing was that he talked about not having to make a case for a hall of fame player, and then attempted to use stats to make a case for Rice.

He is terrible. Out on the west coast we used to get a replay of Mike and Mike. Now We still get Mike and Mike, but from 4-7 in the morning. Then we get stuck with Cowherd. While Mike and Mike were not always the greatest, they were at least entertaining (and they were Ed fans!!!).

#25 Eric, I think you're right but either way, I can't argue against Sutter going in as a Cub or Card...most people remember him as a Cardinal because of the World Series and the "Sandberg Game" but he did win his Cy Young with the Cubs and pitched one more year in Chicago than STL.

#33 Bob, right on, no way does McLiar get into the HOF next season or maybe not at all if even more info is revealed on his steroid allegations or steroids in general..who knows what Canseco might say about BigMac leading up to the vote next Jan. No chance the old guard of writers will vote for him within the first couple years...guys like Gammons have claimed right now they're undecided...and with what happened to Palmeroid there are going to be even more skeptics.

#44 Santo's best chance was last year when the veteran's committee took over the vote. It's been said that many players during that era didn't like Santo because he was a bit of a hotdog with the heel clicking and that kind of stuff. I don't like his chances.

The Hawk was always my favorite player. Of all the memories I have of him, none is better than his home run off of Roger Clemens in the 1991 All-Star game. After homering he promptly went into the dugout and pulled out his binders where he kept track of all the pitchers he faced and how they pitched him. Even in a meaningless exhibition game The Hawk was charting Roger Clemens so he would be prepared if he faced him again in the World Series. Seeing that only reinforced to me why he was my favorite player. His intensity was one reason why he put up the statistics he did. I wish the Cubs could hire him away from the Marlins to help instill that mentality in our young players.

I don't think Santo will get in nor deserves too. I know, blast away, but I really don't think so. And players voting HATE him for two reasons: 1-cockyness talked about above and his constant selling of himself.

Right on Dave and Bleeding Blue...he's awful. I caught the same thing about Rice. Another thing is that he's supposed to be knowledgeable about football, but he's just as bad. He's JimRomian in the worst sense...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

*I almost drove my car into oncoming traffic this morning when I had to listen to Colin Cowherd*

Cowherd is an idiot. I haven't listened to him since he spend 15 minutes on a monologue about how Roger Clemens should not return to any other team but the Astros because "it's the right thing to do" and that he "shouldn't come back for the money" and how it would "tarnish his legacy".

Right. That legacy of throwing at heads and heaving bats at the same people later.

He literally went on and on repeating the same three lines for fifteen minutes. Whiny bitch.

Another one of my complaints about him (I know, I know, why do u listen)...he repeats himself over and over, 15 minutes with the same 3 sentences, ugh.

Re: #43 of 51 - Dave In Pittsburgh

"Our stomachs roiled every time he came up to bat, just from his fierce determined look; it signaled that By God, he was here to carry the team on his back if necessary."

You stated that perfectly. My own stomach twitched with the memory of it. God, I miss watching him.

my drive is from Long Beach to West LA now, it hurts. The only good thing on ESPN Radio out here is Mason & Ireland. They don't even bother to take things seriously, so at least they're entertaining.

I was equally amused with the Rice stats after he claimed the HOF was being sullied by mathematicians. The repetitiveness is brutal. My personal favorite is how he claimed the basketball HOF has it right by including things that are "relevant" like the Globetrotters, then a caller mentioned Dennis Rodman and in typical fashion he turned off the guy and completely ignored it to continue comparing models to supermodels.

Must get XM...

MannyTrillo-
-Nellie Fox
-Luis Aparicio
-Bill Mazeroski

Fair enough...I agree on Maz. But Fox and Aparicio dominated their middle infield positions for a decade each. Surely that has to count for something? Ozzie Smith is in under the same reasons, (unless you don't like him in there either, in which case, nevermind).

does anybody else remember Hawk driving a 2 strike pitch with one on and the cubs down by 9 bottom of the 9th two outs in a game we won in about 14 innings? I couldn't even tell you what year it was (I'm 29 now), but that's my greatest memory of him. Just some game, bad team, but he just played his ass off.

Oh yeah, that ball he hit? It was in the dirt when he picked it up and put it in the bleachers.

Might be a little late to the discussion, but here it goes...

Bruce Sutter was no where near as good of a pitcher as Gossage. It's not even remotely close. Does Sutter belong in the Hall? I don't think so, but I believe one can make a case for him. I could go into all the details, but Tom Verducci of SI makes the case very well.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers...

I was a little shocked at how poorly Clark fared as well. He was a better player than Mattingly for a longer period of time (don't tell Yankee fans that!).

I was in the right-field bleachers at Wrigley on May 28, 1977, when Sutter pitched three innings against the Pirates. That was a great place to see him pitch, because you could see the action on his pitch - and it did indeed look like it dropped off a table. In the eighth, he made Parker look absolutely sick on a strikeout, lunging after a splitter in the dirt on one pitch, and taking another that was straight as a string. There was never anybody quite like him; he belongs in the Hall.

BTW, Sutter was Corey Patterson's little league coach in Georgia, and he and Patterson are still close. My guess is that his opinion of the Cubs organization has not been elevated by that fiasco.

Please dump this thread. Sutter went in as a Cardinal.

"The Cubs gave me a chance to play, signed me as a free agent who was undrafted," Sutter said. "The first day I walked into Wrigley Field (in Chicago) was probably the best day of my life," he said.

"But I guess people remember me with the Cardinals winning the
World Series."

Well, they sure will now...!!

He forgot to mention that he sucked as a minor leaguer until he picked up the split finger from a Cub coach AND the Cubs allowed their coach to visit Sutter even when he was pitching for the Cardinals.

Let's see, Sutter won a world series with the Cardinals, pitched four years with them and enjoyed personal and team success. As opposed to five years w/the Schlubs, with great personal success and, well, um...

So the HOF puts a Cardinals hat on him. I guess they wanted him to look like he belonged in the Hall.

Sutter had more seasons wins, saves, games, games finished, innings pitched, and strikeouts as a Cub. He had five all-star appearances as a Cub, compared to one with the Cards. He won a Cy Young with the Cubs.

Question: Does the HOF decide this, or do they merely retain the right to overturn a stupid choice (such as Boggs' wanting to go in as a Devil Ray)?

I would rate this on par with Reggie Jackson's going in as a Yankee. That was not a glaring mistake, but he really ought to have gone in as an A.

The Hall of Fame now officially decides, although I imagine they still give the player's preference consideration.

I have a question for the TCR community:

Has Bruce Sutter ever taken part in a Cubs' Caravan or appeared at the Cubs' Convention?

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