Big Game Fishing

GAME EIGHTTEEN IN-GAME DISCUSSION THREAD [PARACHAT] FLORIDA MARLINS (5-11, -6.0 GB, 5th) AT CHICAGO CUBS (10-7, -2.5 GB, 4th) WRIGLEY FIELD, 6:05 CDT Weather: Clear, 68 degrees, Right to Left @ 5mph TV: ESPN, WCIU Radio: WGN, XM 185
Carlos Zambrano, RHP 0-1, 3.97 ERA, 22.2 IP 21 K, 17 BB, 4 HRJason Vargas, LHP 1-1, 7.20 ERA, 15.0 IP 9 K, 13 BB, 4 HR
Hanley Ramirez, SS Dan Uggla, 2B Miguel Cabrera, 3B Josh Willingham, LF *Mike Jacobs, 1B Chris Aguila, RF Reggie Abercrombie, CF Matt Treanor, C * Jason Vargas, P*Juan Pierre, CF Ronny Cedeno, SS *Todd Walker, 1B Aramis Ramirez, 3B Michael Barrett, C Matt Murton, LF *Jacque Jones, RF #Neifi Perez, 2B # Carlos Zambrano, P

Marlins vs. Zambrano Miguel Cabrera: 2-15, 133/235/333, 1 HR, 4 KCubs vs. Vargas

Big Z goes in search for his first victory and some stability. With the current M.A.S.H. unit the Cubs are putting out there, it would be nice if we could rely on something beyond Greg Maddux. Z needs to find his All-Star form immediately and the rebuilding Marlins are prime bait. You can't put much stock in April games but winning 2 out of 3 at the very least seems essential against a team likely to be the worst in the NL when it's all said and done. I have nothing good to say about the lineup. I suppose with 3 straight lefties in the series, Jones and Neifi were bound to get starts. GO CUBS!!!
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Comments

Neifi is starting at 2B tonight, not 3B.

As Crunch said in the previous thread, he is 3-3 against this guy, but people should be happy he is batting 8th.

At least Jacque's batting 7th.

So why is it that the Cub Reporter seems to be in more favor of hanging the L banners compared to the W ones?

thanks for catching that, overenthusiastic cutting and pasting.

The game reviews are really up to whoever has the time. I guess Transmission has had the time after losses.

For a lineup that includes Neifi, this one is about as good as you can get. Nice to see Jacque dropped to the 7th spot.

It would be even nicer to see Jones in a platoon, since he can't even pretend to hit lefties, but baby steps.

attaboy carlos! the regression continues!

What has happenned to Z's control?

What has happenned to Z's control?

Anoterh bad throw by Cedeno. he had Cabrera dead to rights but instead throws a 2 hopper to C from short LF. UGh!!!

3-0 FL and Z looks like shit. So much for him being a true #1.

Good thing Z worked on walking fewer batters. I can't imagine what it'd be like if he hadn't.

He's like the Adam Dunn version of pitchers, walks, strikeouts, and homeruns.

I wonder when Z is going to grow up. You could see after he walked Cabrera on 4 pitches, none of which were that close, that he was going to implode. He gave up the double and then walks the next guy.

He seems like he has all the physical skills but none of the mental toughness to pitch effectively. I wish him the best and don't really consider myself a hater...but he's just consistently all over the place. 60 some odd pitches and he's not even out of the 3rd inning. Looks like another loooong night for the bullpen. He'll go maybe 5 innings...at best.

"So much for him being a true #1."

He seems like an average AT BEST number 3 guy, but more like a solid #4.

"So much for him being a true #1."

He seems like an average AT BEST number 3 guy, but more like a solid #4.

zambrano breaking the bat over his knee was just f'ing awesome, i'm sorry.

I want Prior back...and I want the Cubs offense to be able to hit against crappy young pitching....and I want Neifi to play his frickin position.

Z is such a freaking IDIOT. Breaking a bat over his knee? Why not just go punch a wall you HEADCASE!!

He should be fined or at the very least, heavily reprimanded.

He needs to see a shrink.

why, manny - because he shows emotion?

he shows it in the wrong way EVERYTIME.

Just becuase you think it looks cool, doesn't mean it is OK. He could of hurt his knee. We have enough injuries already.

If he went into the dugout and punched the wall and broke his hand, that is showing wemotion, so that is cool by you??

When he shows emotion when a player makes an error and he stomps around the mound like a baby, is that cool by you? that is showing emotion.

The guy is a headcase!!!!

he also is one of the best pitchers in the majors. still. so who cares if he snaps a bat? not even close to the same thing as punching a wall.

NATE:
"he also is one of the best pitchers in the majors."

Oh is he?? This year so far he looks like an average run of the mill pitcher.

"so who cares if he snaps a bat? not even close to the same thing as punching a wall."

How is it not? It is putting yourself in danger of an injury because you can't control your emotions. PERIOD!! You go ahead and support that kind of crap, but when in 3-4 years from now Z is still blowing up on the mound because he is a headcase, you gp ahead and still be happy when he shows "emotion".

i'll be happy in 3-4 years when he's still striking out 8 or 9 batters a game.

"This year so far he looks like an average run of the mill pitcher."

Small sample size, my friend.

Dusty has obviously drawn a lot of fire, but I am one more in the camp of calling for Rothschild's head. I obviously have no good grasp of the goings-on of the daily life of a pitching coach, but what I know is this: Rothschild has been consistently served up more talent than any other pitching coach, and consistently squandered it.

Neither Dusty nor Larry can seem to get Zambrano's head on straight, and his development has been much slower than we'd like because of it. Dusty certainly overused the young guys in 2003, but it was Larry who has continously tinkered with their mechanics to no, and sometimes negative, avail (as AZ Phil wrote so well a couple weeks back).

My question is, a lot of Dusty hate here at TCR is countered with disproportiate, but present, Dusty praise. Is there anyone to come to Rothschild's defense?

yeeah lot og good those 8-9 K's will do when he can't get out of 5th inning.

He has one of the greast pitchers EVER on his team and he can't learn how to pitch.

I've got to agree with Manny here, as cool as breaking a bat might look, it just shows how out of control Z is.

Look at that, a double clutch and bad throw by Neifi on the failed double play...

Why is everyone acting like Z hasn't been a great pitcher? Yes, his first 4 starts this year have not been his best, but he's been consistently great since '03 in pretty much every pitching category except walks. He is going to be just fine.

Yeah, that reminded me of the Farnz. I wish that he would grow up mentally. He should be a bad-ass Cy Young winner by now.

I'm sorry, but Z has not been consistantly great since 03. He's been consistantly good, at times very good, because his stuff is that good.

He's also consistantly had problems with his temper that have prevented him from becoming one of the great pitchers in the league. I'm getting way to sick of seeing Z get pulled after the 4-5th innings or come up with a mysterious injury that only developes when things don't go his way and seems to disappear by the time his next start comes around.

He's still young, and he still has plenty of time to get things together, but every day he puts off growing up is one more day the Cubs aren't going to see his full potential.

Well, Nate, I hope you're right. I hope he puts some pieces together this year. So far he looks average at best. Average and psycho don't mix well.

Zambrano is more than an 'average' pitcher. you guys are crazy.

Bleeding Blue:
"Look at that, a double clutch and bad throw by Neifi on the failed double play..."

Yeah that throw was horrible, then Cedeno still has enough time to get the runner for the DP, but throws the ball off the base. That is 2 bad throws for Cedeno tonight, none will be E's though. I think he and Z need to go to the shrink.

Is this board the Roman mob? A few bad starts, a bit of emotion, and Zambrano goes from the Cubs #1 pitcher to an average, frustrating crybaby.

2005 - 12th in the majors in VORP, 14th in K/9, 3rd in H/9, 3rd in ERA

and that's merely good?

How can Cabrera lumber around from 1st and score and on a double fairly easily and Murton can't? Better fielding, more hustle in the outfield, better decisions by the 3rd base coach? I know he isn't faster than Murton.

Everything is so frustrating when the game goes like this.

Neifi breaks up the no-no. He owns this Vargas kid.

glad i'm not alone, joe c

god knows being a cubbies fan sort of requires you to be all gloom and doom, but are you guys smoking crack?

big z is 24 f'n years old people. 24!

so i guess the morons posting comments today are ready to trade him for prospects...jesus christ.

it's rare a cubs fan gets too negative for me, but this is just disgusting. this is z we're talking about people. and again, HE'S 24 YEARS OLD!

how dare he not have a cy young by now.

Why can we never beat unknown lefties?
It kills me!

just everybody calm down about carlos. its a matter of time. boy, what a lousy start to a year though eh?

and getting 1-hit through 6 in our own house by this whipper snapper!

Yeah that throw was horrible, then Cedeno still has enough time to get the runner for the DP, but throws the ball off the base.

Actually, Cedeno probably should have just held onto the ball. By the time Ronny dug the late ball out of the dirt, he had the runner bearing down on him. Even though it was a slow runner coming down the line, there was no way he was going to be able to make an accurate throw in that situation.

That's fine he's 24, but he still needs to grow up. Youth as an excuse only goes so far. I don't think that anyone is saying he can't pitch. Look - 11 K's... He's just not going to win as many games as he should until he matures in his head. He did this at the beginning of last year too. You know that he cares most about his stats. He wants w's and so he doesn't think and he blows starts and shows up his teammates consistently. It just gets a little old seeing this again.

How much does Karos hate them running that Bartman highlight every time he goes to wrigley

Talk about crybabies! Say something critical of a good player, even if its true, and its turned into "trading him for prospects"

Zambrano is a very good pitcher with the stuff to be one of the game's elite players. His temper is the only thing preventing him from going to the next level. If he can't find a way to grow up, he will never take that next step.

I don't know about you guys but when I was 24, i could definitely locate my fastball...
(RBI baseball for Nintendo, best video game ever)

It's a matter of time until what? His eyes pop out of his head from rage? He kills a batter out of frustration after giving up a home run? He throws 22 strikeouts and gives up 6 runs?

I'm with Manny on this. He needs a shrink.

Nobody's saying he's not got some of the best stuff in baseball. But the man has issues which keep him from being as good as he can be. If you want to look for the source of most people's frustration it's that we have a pitcher with the talent of Roger Clemens and the head of Julian Tavarez.

Look at that Jaque can take a walk

in all fairness, though, you all have to admit that this is a game Z should be in line to win - 12 Ks, 3 ER, 1 HR, 3 BB in 7 innings - that's a more than respectable line for a starter.

But also to be fair, Florida is playing amazing D.

Well said, Mr. Whipple

Whipple, I think we'd remember him striking out 22. and he only slightly maimed most of those batters. chill out dude

at least we're in the Bullpen now.
Does dusty pinch hit here if neifi does something??

Big IF, i know

whew...nice pitch, ugly swing

Has anyone seen Aardsma's creepy-ass press photo? I'm in favor of his demotion if it means I don't have to see it on gameday every time he pitches.

Creepy, definitely creepy

I never learn -- every Cubs team has had the same tendency -- promising road trip, opening a home stand against a mediocre (or worse) team, very favorable pitching matchup....and they roll out a stinker. I haveno idea whey, but this has been a consistent pattern over the past several years.

wow, nice pitch

in all fairness, though, you all have to admit that this is a game Z should be in line to win...

Agreed

Has anyone seen Aardsma's creepy-ass press photo? I'm in favor of his demotion if it means I don't have to see it on gameday every time he pitches.

Hilarious.

looks like dusty finally figured out that 4 balls= a walk

For us on gameday, what just happened in A-Ram's AB?

lets go Mamu

chopper to cabrera, lept high, threw home, throw was a little bit off and late. Pierre scores

We Love You MAMU!!!!

what the hell was Barrett swinging at? JesusMotherMaryandJoseph. That was a pathetic at bat.

Murton! Woo! Jones! Woo!

Wooo!!! I did NOT see this coming!!!

Frenchie!!!!

way to make him work neifi.. I'm still stoked about Jaque and Mamu

CUBS WIN!!!! IN DUSTY WE TRUSTY!!!

11-7...without the teams 3 best players...FIRE DUSTY? HA HA

man, what a great win!@

Man, it's good to have a very effective closer.

Poor Big Z, another no decision.
But, CUBS WIN!!!!!!!!!!!

That was almost as good of a win as the night Lee got hurt. Team has shown lots of heart so far, hope that carries us till we get the players back.

Wow!

You're right on Manny, it's good to see the Cubbies didn't roll over. A lesser team might have done just that.

I hope this is a big boost in the clubhouse and a big boost to Lee. It might sound strange, but I think the best thing for Lee is for the team to keep plugging along without him.

oh my lord that was huge.
simply massive.
when aramis was up with em loaded i had to take a walk to calm my nerves.
murton with the HUGE knock to tie!
JJ with the BOMB to win it!
and the ryan dempster slams the door!

how sweet it is.

now if we can get a little help from the braves and dodgers it would be grand.
(damn nationals and pirates!)

Damn. I shoulda sat in my car listening to the game on XM a little longer instead of going in my house before the bottom of the eight. But great win. To be at 11-7 with our two best (in theory) pitchers and best hitter injured and ARam below the Mendoza line is pretty impressive. For once the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, the record better than the individual stats. Four hits and six runs is a lot better than the ten hits and two runs we seemed to get regularly last year.

Did you guys see wilbon call the Cards a bunch of cry-babies today on PTI?? nice

I can see why you'd call them cry-babies, but it's just typical La Russa. In my opinion he's one of the greatest minds in baseball. He figured the only way to break his rhythm was to upset things a little bit.

The Professor wasn't bothered, of course, but La Russa's mind games were better than just sitting around letting your multi-million dollar sluggers get shut down by a 40-year old. :)

Damn. I shoulda sat in my car listening to the game on XM a little longer instead of going in my house before the bottom of the eight.

That's why you gotta get an xm2go MyFi!

And don't look now, but Jacque Jones is hitting .333 with 2 homers over the past 7 days.

some "who cares" kinda stuff, but it was nice to see d.lee in the dugout with the team...however, i wasnt as pumped as Z was with his performance...its almost as if he didn't really care he just left the game down by 3 runs.

ultimately it doesnt matter much...just something cool and something not so cool that was going on in the game.

for those w/ radio or who didn't see Z...he was quite pleased leaving the mound with his fist pumping and all smiles.

nice to be out of the situation, and great to get that 12th K...but c'mon, 3 runs down...

Yes!! Let's get some momentum now and put down those upstart Brewers this weekend!

for those who didn't see the local WCIU feed...

Post game interview with Jacques Jones, Dempster sneaks up and bullseye'd JJ in the kisser with a shaving cream pie. Probably ruined the broadcast headset but the cameraman knew it was coming because just before the hit they panned out to show Demp sneaking up from behind. Took a whole minute just for JJ to wipe the stuff off his mouth to say another word.

Boys just wanna have fun.

P.S. Nomar hit a grand slam in the top of the 9th off of Lidge to beat the Astros 6-2. He may be wearing Dodger blue but he's still a secret agent for us. Lidge completely unravelled by walking Drew and Kent before the Nomar AB. Nomar didn't get a pie in the face in the postgame interview with Steve Lyons.

Huge win, especially considering the pitching matchups for the rest of the series. For all the talk about Zambrano losing his cool, he rebounded pretty good and ended up with a good line. Like everyone else has said, he was deserving of a win, and has been three times now. Hopefully we knock our smiling castoff out early tomorrow, and then Angel secures a spot on the roster for a little while in game 3. Without Lee, we are still a much, much better team than the Marlins, and there is no excuse for losing this series now.

A couple of things...

1 - Z has been great over the last three years. As EPSN pointed out, he actually had the third best ERA in baseball (or the NL?) over the last three years. That is really good.

2 - The Cubs are not missing their top three players. They are definitely missing their top player (Lee), but Prior and Wood would have to be behind A-Ram and Zambrano at this point in their careers. With that said, I think he has issues controlling his emotions, but the broken bat thing did not bother me. I would much rather see that than him walking a batter almost every time after he gives up a homerun.

3 - I still think Nomar is going to have a great season.

Yes!! Let's get some momentum now and put down those upstart Brewers this weekend!

Given the relative position of the Cubs and Brewers in the standings last year I believe you meant:

Yes!! Let's get some momentum now and show those Brewers there's a new kid in town this weekend!

Oh...and great win. During the 3rd or 4th inning I found out a baseball had went through my back window of my car (I live on a college campus), so I was dealing with that for a while. I came back right at the end of the 8th inning, after the Cubs had scored six runs. I would miss every game if the result was like that!

Funny thing about Jacque -- tho he has SUCKED this year, look at his 3 HRs -- a huge blast to center on Sunday night baseball vs. St. L to give us a win, a big HR yesterday vs. St. L to make it a 2-0 game w/ Maddux on the mound, and a huge HR today. I guess that's the good thing about swinging for the fences seemingly every time, even if its a first pitch ball causing a popout after a 4-pitch walk to Murton (earlier in the game). At some point, it will pay off, and so far, Jones has definitely had a HUGE hand in 2 wins, which is shocking given his overall #s.

By the way...who was it who said Nocioni was not great. The Bulls may have lost, but 30 points, on 13-15 shooting? It doesn't get much greater than that.

In the end, I can see Jones doing 250/330/450 for us this year, with 20 HR and 70 RBI. Not great, but very Burnitz-esque. A passable stopgap until next year when Super Felix takes his place in the OF. Hendry will eat three or four million and pass Jones off on someone else this winter. I can live with that. We needed SOMEONE this winter for RF, Felix needs the extra year in the minors.

Matt Murton rules.

Regarding Jacques...hopefully these last 7 games are a sign of things come. His horrid plate appearances aside for a moment, you gotta like his speed and hustle in the field. Maybe he'll bat .270-.275 with 20/80.

The only thing I'm worried about regarding Z is his slurve. It just isn't breaking like it has in the past. I'm assuming that it'll come with time but he needs to live and die with his fastball right now as it is his best pitch. He's also throwing some kind of changeup crap to lefties breaks down and to the right and never finds the plate. I don't know if he's injured (probably not), but he's not being effective outside of his fastball.

Although Z breaking the bat was pretty f***'ing awesome, it was stupid. I think he knew that. If you read Z's post-game comments, it sounds like his head is in the right place. He knows what he needs to do -- it's just a matter of finding that balance between emotion and control that will allow him to be dominant. Does he need to grow up a bit? Yes, undoubtedly. Does he deserve a fine or need to see a shrink? No.

Great win tonight. I hope Jacque can find his stroke now. I'm a bit surprised by his power -- he didn't even get all of that ball that he took to the opposite field. If he could shorten his swing and square up a bit better, he could be a very solid hitter.

I love how this team has 4 wins when losing after 7 innings. I wish they don't do that too often, but it's pretty awesome that this team isn't giving up. It seems like if we can get solid pitching, we've got a chance to battle for
the win. I like it.

Marshall battles the D-Train tomorrow. Go Cubs!

Lets be honest - after Z broke the bat he calmed down and pitched well.

Note: I meant Z's post-game comments from this season, not tonight, as I haven't seen those yet.

P.S. Anybody else want to go after Miguel Cabrera? Damn, that guy is awesome. But some kind of nice Ryan Freel and Craig Wilson package would make me pretty happy too.

Dave:
"Lets be honest - after Z broke the bat he calmed down and pitched well."

Well then let's have him break a bat over his knee after every hit/HR/BB he gives up then. It must be the bat. ~rolls eyes~

Maybe he settled down because after he stupidly broke the bat over his knee Dusty, Rothschild or another player reemed him out and made him realize how stupid it was.

If not, then I think we should let every player start breaking bats over their knee so they can "show emotion".

...now I'm picturing the real Manny Trillo rolling his eyes.

Well then let's have him break a bat over his knee after every hit/HR/BB he gives up then. It must be the bat. ~rolls eyes~

Dave didn't say or mean that, Manny, and you know it. If we're going to give credit and discredit where it's due (yes, Manny, I'm waiting for your next zing against Cedeno), then let's be fair about to whom we give it. Z was pretty good and locked in after he broke the bat.

manny...i have no idea why he calmed down, and I am not saying that he should do it often. But something happened to make him realize that he had to throw better (and smarter).

Maybe the breaking of the bat was the release of emotion that he needed.

Neifi in the field...

Bobbles a ball that should have been a double play,
Tries to catch a ball at first with Walker already there waiting for the ball, and
Catches the last ball right in front of Jock to end the game even though Jones clearly called in and was in much better position.

Each of the last two could have easily caused a dropped ball with two players trying to catch it.

I still don't understand why that idiot Dusty starts Jones against lefties. Oh yeah, cause he's a flippin idiot.

It was really something to see the tranformation of Jones from befuddled highschooler to Conan the Destroyer as soon as the lefty is pulled and he gets to see the ball coming out of a right hand.

Andrew, I agree that Z breaking the bat over his leg was stupid yet awesome. Awesome, mostly. I remember Bo Jackson doing that a lot, and people just thought it was cool. To all -- next time you are holding a wooden bat, by the way, try to do it. It hurts and the bat doesn't give much.

When we are all 95 years old and in our deathbeds (preferably separate ones), reflecting on our Cubs memories, we'll be telling stories of things like CZ breaking bats and pumping fists, and the rush of pride and excitement and fun that went along with it all. Probably we won't be remembering OPS and sac bunt strategies and 60 man roster moves. Not that those things aren't important -- but nights like tonight remind me that following this team can be really fun.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that nights like tonight don't come around that often. In the rush to analyze and look ahead, the pure fun of a game like this can get lost in the shuffle, or at least be easily forgotten.

Watching JJ's fly ball to left, as the outfielder wandered back, measuring it yet running out of room and finally watching the ball soar into the bleachers...and the rush of hope, thinking that maybe we can hang on for a little while longer -- this game, this week, maybe a few more weeks...and then guys will get healthy, and things will be like we planned...this is the fun part.

JWin,

I agree with you. Neifi is a total menace out there.

Every time I think of the Neifi signing, I cringe. Just think of the message it sends to our guys on the farm. That there is not one of you in the system who can duplicate the dogshit year that Neifi had in 2005. And we not only think that about 2006, we think it about 2007 as well.

Wow, great post, 433. Couldn't agree more. Keep writing like that and you'll be the next one to pull a Rob G., Transmission, or AZ Phil!

I'm not a regular poster but read this everyday and wanted to share. Finally able to catch my first I-Cubs game since moving to Des Moines. Not much to report, Brownlie got rocked in the 1st (couple of the outs were hit harder than the two homers he gave up) and Pie (2-4, single/double) looks promising but not ready for the bigs, swung at some terrible breaking pitches.

The cool part was this: there was a group of four 21-25 year old males being 20 somethings males with a few drinks in them. Behind them was an elderly lady with headphones w/Chi Cubs game. As the Cubs made the comeback tonight, she kept giving updates and everyone kept getting more excited and the dudes were giving her high fives. The smile on her face was as priceless as tonights Chi-Cubs win. I can't do the moment justice, but it is now one of my favorite Cubs moments.

Regardless, thank for the great and spirited Cubs talk. Go Cubs!

Andrew:
"yes, Manny, I'm waiting for your next zing against Cedeno"

You must not of read this thread really well then. I mentioned how he had two bad throws again tonight. I will stop singing his throws when he stops making bad ones. It is a big worry to me. I know many aren't worried and just brush it off to teh side, but with Walker at 1B, I think it is a BIG problem.

Horatio:
"I still don't understand why that idiot Dusty starts Jones against lefties. Oh yeah, cause he's a flippin idiot."

FIRE DUSTY!!!

P.S. Cubs are 11-7. :) Go Cubs!!

433:

I agreed

I remember wood's home run in game 7. Sometimes outcome does not matter

Manny,

You must not of read this thread really well then. I mentioned how he had two bad throws again tonight. I will stop singing his throws when he stops making bad ones. It is a big worry to me. I know many aren't worried and just brush it off to teh side, but with Walker at 1B, I think it is a BIG problem.

Yes, Manny, I know that's how you feel about Cedeno. I didn't mean "zing" as in "sing" -- I meant "zing" as in "zinger" as in insult. It's very obvious to me, and most likely to others here, that you don't like Cedeno's defense and find it to be a big problem. No doubt you'd prefer Neifi's steady glove in the lineup. I don't deny Cedeno needs to work on his throws, but so far, he's played well enough to be worth far more than Value Over Replacement Neifi. Or perhaps you don't think Neifi's horrendous bat is a BIG problem?

"Value Over Replacement Neifi"

That's genius. That's his new nickname, better even than 'Neifi!'

It is a big worry to me.

Manny...why are you more worried about Cedeno's poor throws than Neifi's mistakes? And why do you care less about Neifi's pathetic offensive abilities?

At least have some constinency...

Cedeno's throwing errors do not worry me. He has always been known as a great defensive SS, and I think it is probably just some youthful nervousness more than anything. I would MUCH rather have Cedeno out there than Neifi.

And right now Cedeno would probably win the rookie of the year. The play of Cedeno and Murton almost reminds me of Walton (remember the 30 game hitting streak?) and Smith back in 1989, when they finished 1-2 in the ROY the voting. Yes, I know Murton does not qualify, but he is still essentially a rookie.

Andrew:
"No doubt you'd prefer Neifi's steady glove in the lineup."

And where did I say that????

I would NOT prefer Neifi's glove in the lineup at all except as the perfect late inning defensive replacement (or on the occasional offday for Cedeno). I would prefer and still want Cedeno starting, BUT I think his defense is starting to become worrisome. I am NOT advocating to bench him, like you think I want Neifi in there. You are clearly mistaken.

You are clearly mistaken.

If you agree that Neifi is worthless offensively, should practically never be starting (less than once a week), and only entering games as late inning defensive replacement, then my apologies. Frankly, from today's game alone, I'm more worried about Neifi's hyper defense that Cedeno's errant throws. His strange attempt to back up Walker's catch on Cedeno's DP attempt and his stupid decision to take the game-ending catch away from the better-positioned Jones could have cost us outs and possibly runs.

Man, that guy was a nutcase out there. He should be fined, or at a minimum reprimanded. The dude should see a shrink.

Dave:
"Manny...why are you more worried about Cedeno's poor throws than Neifi's mistakes?"

What mistakes?? Neifi hasn't made an error this year and make a ton less mistake than Cedeno. neifi is a GG defender. Look at his defensive stats from last year, still at his age, he can glove with the best of them. Cedeno has 4 errors and many more bad throws that have been bailed out or not count as errors. If you can't see that, you are not looking very closely at his play. He also struggled badly with his throws in Winter ball too (from reports here).

"And why do you care less about Neifi's pathetic offensive abilities?"

Because unless major injuries, he will get a ton less AB's than Cedeno. This year, Cedeno has more than double the AB's than Nedidi and hopefully it stays that way. I also don't recall me ever saying I "could care less". I do care, but that is why he is the perfect late inning defensive replacement, not an everyday starter unless major injury.

"I would MUCH rather have Cedeno out there than Neifi."

I agree and have not said anything but that this year. See, you are mixing up me being worried about Cedeno's throws from being a Cedeno basher/Neifi supporter. I think Cedeno should be the everyday starter at SS, but I still worry about his throwing. You don't, which is fine, but I do.

"And right now Cedeno would probably win the rookie of the year...Yes, I know Murton does not qualify, but he is still essentially a rookie."

Neither of them are eligible for ROY, but I am really happy overall how the rookies have done. I hope they can keep it up as the Cubs will need it for them to keep winning.

What mistakes??

Well...as it has already been mentioned, he made at least two or three mistakes today. And you said nothing. But you made sure that you pointed out Cedeno's throws.

If you can't see that, you are not looking very closely at his play.

Did I ever say that Cedeno hasn't made mistakes? Come on... don't put words in my mouth.

Neither of them are eligible for ROY

Cedeno isn't eligible? I couldn't remember...

Andrew:
"If you agree that Neifi is worthless offensively, should practically never be starting (less than once a week), and only entering games as late inning defensive replacement, then my apologies."

That is exactly what I think, haven't said otherwise (barring major injury). Your apology is accepted. Next time maybe you shouldn't actually JUMP to conclusions without anything more than a hunch...:)

"Frankly, from today's game alone, I'm more worried about Neifi's hyper defense that Cedeno's errant throws."

Not me in the least. Neifi is a master defensive guy. I have ZERO worries about him as he, Lee and Maddux are CLEARLY the 3 best defenders on our team.

Manny,

I think Cedeno should be the everyday starter at SS, but I still worry about his throwing. You don't, which is fine, but I do.

That's not true. Just because Dave, myself, or whomever else don't wring our hands on here every time Cedeno makes an errant throw doesn't mean we don't worry about them. It's just that 1) there isn't a better option and 2) I personally think that he'll get better with his throws in time.

Your consistent criticism of Cedeno's defense seemed to indicate that you would prefer another option, i.e. Neifi. If that's not true, fine. Feel free to hem and haw on here about Cedeno's defensive mistakes if that makes you feel better.

"Not me in the least. Neifi is a master defensive guy. I have ZERO worries about him as he, Lee and Maddux are CLEARLY the 3 best defenders on our team."

What am I, chopped liver?

Dave:
"Well...as it has already been mentioned, he made at least two or three mistakes today. And you said nothing. But you made sure that you pointed out Cedeno's throws."

Actually, I did mention the bad throw on the DP above in post #31 (you must of just missed it accidently). As for the other plays, I have no problem with his aggressiveness. Again, he was the best defender on the field tonight. I want him to take charge. If he has a beat on the flyball to end the game...go for it, as long as he was calling it, which he obviously was. As for the play with Walker at 1B, I did not see the whole play, but with Walker not use to playing 1B, maybe Neifi thought he was out of position. But he wasn't in walker's way, just standing next to him. Big deal...

"Did I ever say that Cedeno hasn't made mistakes? Come on... don't put words in my mouth."

I said "If you can't see that, you are not looking very closely at his play." The key word being IF. I did not put words in your mouth and said you didn't see it, I said IF you couldn't see it. You clearly see it, so I am glad we are on the same page...

"Cedeno isn't eligible? I couldn't remember..."

Nope...

Next time maybe you shouldn't actually JUMP to conclusions without anything more than a hunch...:)

Oh, I can do much better jumping on much more interesting hunches if you'd like:

Dusty loves Neifi
+ Manny loves Dusty
Manny loves Neifi

Dusty defends sucky play(ers)
Manny defends Dusty
Manny defends sucky play(ers)

Dusty = idiocy
Manny trusts Dusty
Manny trusts idiocy ???

Whoops, stupid HTML. This is what I meant:

Dusty loves Neifi
+ Manny loves Dusty
=Manny loves Neifi

Dusty defends sucky play(ers)
+Manny defends Dusty
=Manny defends sucky play(ers)

Dusty = idiocy
+Manny trusts Dusty
=Manny trusts idiocy ???

Nice one Andrew...

You got me on that one...:)

And along the same lines of thinking...
We have asphault
We have cancer
Thus asphault causes cancer.

i suspect that hits to bleed cubbie blue increase exponentially with every one of these pissing matches.

i suspect that hits to bleed cubbie blue increase exponentially with every one of these pissing matches.

didn't Schilling have a similiar youth as Zambrano? It sure seems like it to me. Yes he is insanely gifted. Look at him though. He has that same horse build that clemens and schilling share(d). I think at this point it all has to do with preparation and mental stability. Hey. I love the guys fire. I wish more had it. But there is a fine line between very competitive and insane.

I sure would love for Schilling to give Z a call and pass on some butt chewing that Clemens gave him back when Schilling was 24.

I know this is easier to say after his game-winning home run tonight, but we need to give Jacque Jones a break. He has gotten off to a slow start, but what's going on here is something deeper than a slow start. This is some form of deeply-rooted hatred that I do not understand. So many Cubs fans decided they hated this guy the instant he signed. With apologies to Rick Pitino: "Sammy Sosa's not coming out of that tunnel! Andre Dawson's not coming out of that tunnel!" People, Jones is our right fielder, and for the Jones Haters Club out there, you need to deal with that. The guy wants to win, and is giving 110 percent. Let's be passionate and loud and boisterous....but let's be supportive of our guys also. I don't want Cubs fans to turn into New York or Philadelphia fans. That would be a friggin' disaster.

I don't particularly like Jones as a player, but the boo-ing at Wrigley has gotten absurd. Makes Cub fans look like reactionary knee jerk Philadelphians. Boo-ing your own guys pretty much sucks all the time. Friendly Confines is becoming a bit of a misnomer...

Well Jones' comments are a little weird. The fact that he uses Sammy as an example is a little confusing . . . Sammy was not run out of town by the fans. It was the management and GM that actually did that. Sammy was quite loved by many Cubs' fans, etc. I also question the intelligence of Jones venting in the press room. A little leadership here Dusty? fat chance. But it isn't gonna help Jones to attack the fans . . .

People are booing Jacque because they are intelligent AND because Jim Hendry doesn't run out on the field everyday given them the opportunity to boo him. Jones sucks. His signing was horrible, many fans thought so at the time, and he continues to prove it with every home run swing he takes. Jones swings from the heels on every pitch. He has no concept of the strike zone, and now we see he has no concept of what booing is really going to be like now that he ripped the fans.

Some numbers to make the Jacque lovers warm and fuzzy:
avg by month in 2005: April .353/May .222/June .245/July .295/August .175/Sept .227

in 2004: April .329/May .223/June .225/July .244/August .297/Sept .207

He's a career .300 hitter in April, even hitting well during that month in his two worst seasons. Yet this year he just plain sucks. Even more than his very mediocre 2005 and 2004 seasons. It's early, but he shows no sign of reverting to the pre-2004 player he was.

Signing Jones for 1 year would have made sense given how bad the free agent OF market was at the time (Although we didn't make any effort to sign Brian Giles). But signing him for 3 years was a panic move for Hendry, one that will cost us Juan Pierre next year. Pierre will be allowed to leave as a free agent because we have to find room for Felix Pie, and that albatross of a contract is stuck in RF for three years. Unless the fans revolt on him, boo him mercilessly all year and basically force Hendry to eat some of the contract and trade him this offseason, if that's possible.

I'm tired of people complaining about fans booing. Fans pay for the tickets and the salaries of the players. They have the right to boo, cheer, or sit on their hands. As long as they are not threatening the players or making insults at their families, booing is perfectly acceptable. Stopping the booing is simple, just play well. Nobody is asking anyone to hit .400 or drive in 200 runs. But we just got rid of one stubborn left handed hitter who didn't know the strike zone and Hendry turns around and signs another one - doubling his salary and giving him a 3 year contract.

re: 128

i'm not buying that at all. if you feel that way boo jim hendry. it's not jones' fault that he got offered the deal that he did. i'm not totally against all booing, but come on, jones was hearing boos less than a week into his cub career. you've got to give him a little more time than that.

last time i checked the function of home town fans is to provide support for their team, leading to a home field advantage, and maybe more wins. it's not to loudly express displeasure at every move you don't agree with that. if you want to do that, spare the rest of us, stay home and yell at your tv. in fact, if you're so very dead set against jim hendry that's definitely the best the to do, hurt the cubs where it counts - in the pocket book - and stay home.

if you think 2,000 people in the right field bleachers yelling at our right fielder is in any way going to positively affect the cubs fortunes this year you're totally nuts.

I just wanted to put these two statements together:

He seems like an average AT BEST number 3 guy, but more like a solid #4.

2005 - 12th in the majors in VORP, 14th in K/9, 3rd in H/9, 3rd in ERA

Sometimes our standards around here can be a little high - unless you think most teams have the 12th best starter in baseball as a #4.

to hear the nay-sayers tell it, big Z has just been an average (at best) pitcher because he's a head case.

i guess those players don't realize that he's the best pitcher in his age range. and that he's statistically better than peavey OR willis, who are pretty much consensus aces.

we are talking about one of the best pitchers in the league, period. and while he could be the best pitcher in the league if he could cool down a little, maybe that's his game. maybe he'll be a slow-starter, a bit of a headcase, but one of the best. and maybe attempts to turn him into cool-hand luke will take away some of the fire that makes him such a dominant pitcher.

in my estimation, most of z's worst pitches came when he was trying to do too much maddux-style mixing it up and not enough of the groundball power pitching that's his bread and butter. don't try and turn him into something he's not.

that said, breaking bats over your knee is pretty f'n dumb. but since he didn't break his knee i'll let it pass, especially because it was so friggin' cool.

the booing thing is just a pissant excuse for little men who want to feel important.

if you don't like the players or the team or the GM or the manager, stay the hell away. I'd love to have your ticket instead.

cub fans ARE philly fans at this point...cutting off their noses to spite their face.

I've said this once or twice here before, but booing should be reserved ONLY if the player is not giving 100% (as in every time ARam hits the ball and barely breaks a jog to first) or when a player makes a REALLY stupid mistake.

So last night I might have felt like booing when, immediately after Murton walked on 4 straight pitches, Joke Jones swung at a first pitch way out of the zone and popped to short. That was probably one of the stupidest baseball decisions I've seen since Pinto League, and he deserved to be booed for it.

breaking bats over your knee is pretty f'n dumb. but since he didn't break his knee i'll let it pass, especially because it was so friggin' cool.

Make up your "f'n" mind. What was it, dumb or cool?

yes. it was dumb and cool.

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