Have We Learned Nothing

I'm not sure I have the energy to even complain about today's lineup. The only thing that surprises me is that Blanco isn't making an appearance. Woeful. Pathetic. Insert adjective. Good luck Z, you'll need it. GAME FOURTY-SEVEN IN-GAME DISCUSSION THREAD [PARACHAT] ATLANTA BRAVES (24-23, 3rd, 4.5 GB) AT CHICAGO CUBS (18-28, 5th, 12.5 GB) Wrigley Field, 1:20 PM CDT Weather: 75 degrees, Sunny, Wind from left to right @ 12 mph TV: WGN Radio: WGN, XM 189
Carlos Zambrano, RHP 3-2, 3.53 ERA, 63.2 IP 71 K, 38 BB, 9 HR Tim Hudson, RHP 4-3, 3.95 ERA, 66 IP 45 K, 21 BB, 4 HR

Marcus Giles, 2B Edgar Renteria, SS #Chipper Jones, 3B Andruw Jones, CF *Adam LaRoche, 1B Jeff Francoeur, RF *Ryan Langerhans, LF Todd Pratt, C Tim Hudson, P*Juan Pierre, CF #Neifi Perez, 2B *Todd Walker, 1B Michael Barrett, C *Jacque Jones, RF Aramis Ramirez, 3B *Freddie Bynum, LF Ronny Cedeno, SS #Carlos Zambrano, P
Braves vs. Zamrbano: Edgar Renteria:10-23 435/536/565 1 HR, 5 BB, 6 K Chipper Jones:4-14 286/444/500 Andruw Jones: 2-13 154/333/385Cubs vs. Hudson: Jacque Jones: 9-29 310/310/517 2 HR's Todd Walker: 4-17 235/278/353 John Mabry: 4-16 250/250/250 Neifi Perez: 4-12 333/333/333


Guess Dusty was disappointed he wasn't fired yestrerday. Neifi and Bynum in the same lineup? Guess the hope is that Hudson will be laughing so hard he will walk them.

What are the odds on a no hitter?

At least you can't walk across home plate, right Dusty?

What are the odds of Z getting out of the first inning?

stunning...simply stunning.
this makes 24 walks in the last 26 innings as a staff.

37 pitch first inning...wow.

Over/under on number of pitches the Cubs see in the bottom of the first: 10
Any bets?

10 pitches (7/1/2). Way to let Z rest.

Shows what you know...it was 11 pitches...

My fault, I missed 1 pitch to Walker.

"Prior expected to make rehab start next week"


Dude, how could Bynum blow that RBI opportunity? Dude, man. Bad luck. Where's my holy water?

Aramis Ramirez is hitting now. Time to move him up on th line-up cus all he's doing is hitting solo shots and 2 out doubles.

In my opinion, the single biggest reason for the Cubs futility the past 30 years has been their inability to develop their own players. As a result we have had countless free agent busts-where we've signed ex-all stars in the twilight of their career (and given them multi-year contracts). Jeff Blauser, Todd Hundley, you know the names...Previous Cubs management would keep a guy like Maddux, despite the team record, knowing full well that father's love to take their kid to see the "legend". If they want to take one page from Kenny Williams, it would be to kick sentiment (and ticket sales) to the curb and open a spot for a young pitcher.

You can't develop young talent without letting them play at the major league level. So getting rid of guys is more to open spots than it is to dump salaries or get good players in return. If you get 5 or 6 prospects from Williamson, Walker, Maddux, etc...you may get lucky. If you get Hill, Guzman, Marmol or Ryu 100 major league innings you may be surprised.

Bottomline, you don't have much of a choice. Double digits out before June 1st is not a promising situation, I don't care who's coming back.

The sad thing is, the Cubs will not wave the white flag. Too proud, too stubborn, whatever. They'll wait to get Lee, Prior and Miller, they'll wait to see if they can get anything out of Pierre and figure they can make deals going into August. By then you've lost two full months of playing time (200 abs for a player, 60 innings for a starting pitcher) and waste it like its newspaper.

Zambrano by pitches by inning:
1. 37
2. 6
3. 10

It would be nice if he chose to warm up before the game started instead of during the first inning.

Ahh, this team makes me laugh.

Z only hitting .056, if they want to generate more offense they should let him start taking BP again.

We might have a no-hitter today...and lose 1-0

Holy crap, our lead-off hitter just got a hit!

Ron Santo: "I hope Perez takes a few pitches so Pierre can try to steal second."

Perez takes 1 then lines out.

Carmenfanzone the Cubs have trouble developing major league hitters because they don't understand what makes a good major league hitter.

Well at least we don't have to worry about Perez leading off the next inning....

Dude, Neifi sure has a nice ass.

I wish I hadn't seen that DUSTBALLS.

RoBr: "Prior expected to make rehab start next week"

That's barring any setbacks... you know, like: flu, mad cow disease, shaken baby syndrome, broken nail, hayfever, vaginal discharge, etc...

My vote is vaginal discharge

Don't worry, they'll fina a way to blow this lead.

My prediction, 5 Cubs pitchers will combine on a no-hitter.

Cubs will lose 4-3 on 10 walks, and a 2 run Neifi Perez error in the 9th.

Wow. I've never seen Hudson pitch before. His stuff is amazing. That comebacker he got struck out Bynum with looked like it paused in midair before cutting back over the plate. I mean, it's not look you have to get up before noon to fool Bynum, but that was quite a pitch.

My prediction is that Prior will suffer a duel-SARS/Bird Flu outbreak that will set him back until August.

When he finally arrives in Iowa for a rehab start, he will catch the Mumps.

I bet you Z walks the lead-off hitter.
By the way wheres Matt Murton, his Sac Fly would have looked good there.

.ooops cant type fast enough

Oh yeah, and 1st inning aside, Z don't look so bad either.

Do you let Z pitch 140 pitches to complete the game if he continues throwing a __ _____


Those word of mine tasted delicious...can I have some more please.

I still think we should let this guy take BP.

One more thing.

Yeah, he's arrogant, and losing him for 10 games just for busting some AJ in the mug last week was very far from what the Cubs needed right now, but Barrett hauled his slow catcher ass to first base in the 4th inning to force that bad throw. The Cubs owe that leading run to his hustle. That kind of play is exactly the kind of thing the Cubs have not been doing in the month of Mayday... or really for the past few decades. It was nice to see, and give Barrett some credit.

Neifi Perez
3 at bats
5 total pitches
0 called strikes

IF the Cubs had a shot at anything this year and needed Z's arm...I'd say pull him after 120 max.
(which looks to be the 7th inning at this rate.

But we fucking suck...so just Leave Z in even if it takes 180 pitches to complete this thing.

Baker better be wearing a cup when he pulls Z.

That Neifi statistic makes my soul literally bleed. How. Why. When will it end?

On the other side, I am so proud of my decision to by a Z jersey two years ago. Keep em coming, Carlos.

Man, Baker is a genius for playing Bynum!

Oh the lineup, Oh Bynum's in the lineup..waaahhh...


Holy Cow! Zambrano is throwing a no hitter!!

I'd rather they win 2-1 today since I have Hudson going, but...I'll take it.

p.s. above post should not be construed as support for Neifi playing nor batting second. Thank you.


Sorry, I hope there's a hit. We need Z. It won't help if his arm falls off and Baker won't pull even if he goes to 150.

hudson gets murton and womack "scared" out of the lineup. some people dont even wanna think about womack, but the only thing i can say to that is "neifi" and "hairston". i had a lot of hope for hairston, but his swing is pretty damn dead.

batting neifi 2nd, though...well, people didnt complain much when cedeno was doing it, but i still cant stand dust's "contact hitter bats 2nd" hardon he has for that slot.

speaking of cedeno, his game is totally in the toilet. if he's gonna keep hitting like he is, he needs to worry about keeping that throwing line on target.

Jacque Jones Saves Z's arm.

You got your wish.

I was under the impression that if a guy is practically standing still and a fly ball hits off his glove, that it's an error.

HAHAHA. What a perfect jinx!!

How's that Jones signing working out for you? I bet Burnitz makes that catch.

that blows ass...a no-hitter counts for 10 wins and the club needed that. Z only had 120 pitches through 7, too. what a waste.

Well, it's over...but what in gods name do we need Z for?...to ensure we win 70 games instead of 60 this year? Hell, that would have been the only thing to remember about the entire season. Let him pitch a no hitter, give him the next 3 weeks off...what's the worst that can happen, we are 20 games under .500 instead of 10.

And I actually believe that Baker would have had to pull Zambrano even if he had a no-no after 8 if he was near 130.

figures that pinch hitter breaks it up.

Sorry Big Z. Hope Jones is wearing his cup today.
Baker ought to pull him now. For Jones sake.

For having a pretty good year so far, Jones really has an uncanny knack for screwing up at the worst possible times.

A no-hitter without a shut-out and 6 walks? No way Baker would pull him with a no hitter no matter how many pitches. It's better for Z too!

Just when Jones was starting to hit, the Cub fans will grind him up to a fine powder now....wonder what Z's reaction was after the play.

Crunch, a no-no doesn't count for shit in terms of the long term prospects for this season...but it sure would have given us one positive fun thing to come out of this dreadful pathetic season.

As for Cedeno...he's hitting .253 for the month which is not terrible considering the entire team is hitting about .230 I think....he also had a 7-19 strech through the White Sox Series.

But the fact that he has only 1 walk the entire month of may is pretty disgusting. I know he is a contact hitter...but come on, 87 at bats, 1BB...gross.

His .276 SLG percentage for May is pretty damn ugly too.

Neifi took a called strike...now that's cause for celebration.

That would have been amusing if he pitched a no-no and got the loss. Z would break all the bats in the clubhouse. They'd have to get those pink ones back out.

Did the crowd boo JJ loudly? I didn't see the play...should it have been a really easy catch?

I'm telling you, play Kerry Wood at 2nd base. He's better than Neifi with the bat and his arm is almost as strong. *sigh*

In fact, just switch them, Neifi is accurate and definitely durable.

Topic for discussion:

The Cubs aren't all that terrible of a team, but they sorely lack a leader. All of their stars are "quiet types" except Z, and well Z's craziness isn't exactly leadership material.

What happens when a team with no leader and a softspoken manager loses its star player? The month of May, that's what.

The Cubs' priority for this off-season should be a guy who can come into the clubhouse and be a strong leader, and if it's not going to be a player, then well, maybe it should be a manager.

And also, they need to dump Neifi's dumb ass.

The dropped ball looked like trouble from the start. It was hit hard, Jones was unsure of where the ivy was, and he was losing the ball in the sun. But it still went right in and out of his glove.

I agree with Chris, but Ryno is wrong. On his off day they should put Z out at second, let him take BP and let anybody who screws up out there deal with him.

-increases offence and accountability

it hit him in the glove because he guessed about where it was but he had no idea where it was until it hit him.

The crowd was kind of grumpy until after Giles got the single that knocked in Betemit, and then Dusty game to get Z and Z got a huge ovation. No real booing.

Are the Cubs 18-28 terrible, no.
But I don't think they have playoff talent even with Lee, Prior, and Wood...I think the problems with this team go far beyond lack of leadership in the clubhouse...but that certainly couldn't hurt.

I think the Cubs priority needs to make sure they have dependable, deep starting pitching..a couple players who reliably get on base, even if they don't have a ton of speed...and more than 2 reasonably dependable power hitters.

IF one of those ends up being a good clubhouse leader...great.

if that fly ball had hit JJones in the head:

Would MLB have fined Jones and suspended the ball for 10 games?

Which Dempster will show up today?

Did I just hear the Cubs called up Womack?

do you think it is a standard stratedgy of other managers to put ex-cubs against the cubs because they all of a sudden become all-stars

*f that fly ball had hit JJones in the head:

Would MLB have fined Jones and suspended the ball for 10 games?*

That is the first legit laugh I've had all year regarding the Cubs--congrats!

If you would have added "Then the ball would have slowly walked back to his dugout pumping his arms in the air as if he had actually *won* the 'fight'", I may have pished meshelf.

"Crunch, a no-no doesn't count for shit in terms of the long term prospects for this season...but it sure would have given us one positive fun thing to come out of this dreadful pathetic season."

dude had 120+ pitches (124) in 6.2...it wasnt gonna happen without a miracle.

speaking of miracle...c'mon dumpster.

If Dempster blows this save after Eyre only threw 12 pitches and struck out one, Dusty should be fired on the spot, or by Hendry during Dustbag's post-game shrugging conference.

It's like I'm a prophet. Ronnie's lamenting is like music to me.

dusty should be fired for bring in the closer?

You can't blame Dusty for bringing in his closer. Almost every manager would have made that move. Howery is a set up guy, did his job and the ninth is for the closer. If he didn't there would be unnecessary controversy about whether Dusty had lost faith in Dempster, etc.

*You can't blame Dusty for bringing in his closer. Almost every manager would have made that move. Howery is a set up guy, did his job and the ninth is for the closer.*

Eyre breezed through one inning! Dempster has sucked lately! This team needs WINS. NOW. Let Dempster come in if the Cubs get a big lead or are getting crushed. Why fuck around?

Yeah, that's about right.

Way to go Neifi!

Nice. Nice. Nice.

Perez should be DFA'd today.

sigh noofie...sigh dumpster...sigh cubs...

Two errors on Neifi! Wooo!

"Cubs will lose 4-3 on 10 walks, and a 2 run Neifi Perez error in the 9th."

Close enough...

Nice...2 errors for Perez! Probably shoulda given Nomaaaah a contract. I hear he's doing good things on the coast.

You don't dump your closer for one blown save. He hasn't "sucked lately" he had one bad outing after three straight scoreless outings

Blockhead25, 2:33pm:
Cubs will lose 4-3 on 10 walks, and a 2 run Neifi Perez error in the 9th.

Not exactly, but close enough to be eerie.

*He hasn't "sucked lately" he had one bad outing after three straight scoreless outings*

Well, he sure sucked TODAY--is that "lately" enough for you?

And the crowd goes wild!

My Post #25 is a little frightening now.

"Cubs will lose 4-3 on 10 walks, and a 2 run Neifi Perez error in the 9th."

This is so Cublike. Rehmlinger comes in a slams the door and the Cubs give it up the next inning.

Pitches-strikes (1IP each) - S Eyre 12-6; R Dempster 32-14.

Yup. Dusty sure is a genius.

anyone else think they are tryng to lose?

Neifi sees 4 pitches in his strikeout.

And Dusty has THE BALLS to let Neifi lead-off the bottom of the ninth. My. God.

am i the only one excited to see womack start playing 2B now?

If I had to construct a hell out of nothing but baseball, I could do no better than the Cubs have done this past month.

This must be the bottom right? It really can't get any worse, can it?

#92 is so, so sad. And so, so true.

*This must be the bottom right? It really can't get any worse, can it?*

You haven't been a Cubs fan long, have you?

Hey Keith, save that bottom for a week when you're sniffing the mildew in the cellar for the rest of the year.

This is terrible -- the good teams or at least the teams with hope like the Braves find a way to win games where they didn't have a hit 6 and third innings. The Cubs well -- yeah the Cubs lose.

That giant sucking sound is Neifi's career with the Cubs. I don't want to hear any more bullshit about "gold glove winner" Neifi Perez. that was 6 years ago, at SS...not at 2B.

He muffed the throw, and I thought he was trying to hit the bull with the throw home. WTF!!!!!

He should be gone. Period.
I never thought I'd be glad to see Tony Womack...naaaahh...eff that, he sucks too.
Crap, play bynum...play Hairston....anyone but Neifi and his cousin Tony Womack!!!

WSCR is reporting that the cubs PR staff cut off the postgame press conference. "Stay tuned."

Actually I was a fan to see the fateful 2003 series.

I saw Keven Tapani's almost 1-0 game against these Braves in playoffs

I watched Sutclifs 3-0 lead disappear.

And I got excited when the cubs got Dave Roberts to help sure up the pen when Bruce Sutter;s arm fell off.

And those time were when the cubs were winning.

*Actually I was a fan to see the fateful 2003 series.

I saw Keven Tapani's almost 1-0 game against these Braves in playoffs

I watched Sutclifs 3-0 lead disappear.

And I got excited when the cubs got Dave Roberts to help sure up the pen when Bruce Sutter;s arm fell off.*

Well, then you should know better by now--or are you just trying not to remember?

*WSCR is reporting that the cubs PR staff cut off the postgame press conference. "Stay tuned."*

They're too busy counting splitting up today's gate to bother addressing the media, who 'aren't playing nice anyway'.


I'm only a Cubs fan because it feels so good when the season stops.

I was listening to Baker when they cut him off. He kept using the word "terrible" over and over.

It wouldn't be surprising if he joins Paul Sullivan on "hiatus" soon.

As a long time Cub fan, I was unfazed by this blown loss. At this point I really am hoping the Cubs don't win another game until this so-called management team is shaken up. Nothing is going to change if the Cubs play .500 ball or even .450 ball -- the only way the Cubs can get a manager, general manager and president they need, which will then lead to player changes like getting rid of scrubs like neifi, hariston, mabry, blanco, et al is to lose every game until their ineptude can no longer be ignored!

*It wouldn't be surprising if he joins Paul Sullivan on "hiatus" soon.*

They can explain his absence every day by simply announcing "Dusty Baker is unwell".

Actually the worst was when Brant Brown dropped the flyball with the bases loaded against the brewers. I heard that one on the radio. I actually woke up the next day to check the scores thinking it might only have been a nightmare. ....this is very therapeutic actually.

I doubt it's that drastic, maybe someone got into a fight into the clubhouse or something. Or they were worried that Dusty would inevitably defend Neifi or Dempster....

Any truth to the rumor that Hendry just signed Neifi to a 5-year extension?

Swept by the Marlins, then lose on a 2-error play with 2 outs in the ninth. No team in baseball will have a worse 4 days this year.

Really, all you can do is laugh...it's like the bad news bears. If it is going to be bad, why not be so bad it's funny.

3 9th inning leads blown in a little over a week...Makes one think of those wonderful Hawkins days.

At lweast Dempster has the ability to blow it before there are 2 strikes and 2 outs.

I don't know, the Cubs still have 110+ games to go, I bet they could find some more creative ways to lose.

Wood needs to be the Closer now. Its obvious that his arm cant handle the stress of 70+ pitches an apperance and we saw last year what he could do in the BP. Wood as a closer could be the most valuable trading chip at the deadline.

You know these guys just gotta have a game where they just have fun. You know every inning they should just run out there and who ever gets to the postion first plays it that inning. They might do pretty good.

Well, I gotta go drink now.

The Cubs still might...

Man, thank heavens for Dempster and Nef I thought Z would kill me.....those guys are great teammates...they even saved me from the fans.

This really has become the most depressing thing I have ever seen. We really shouldn't be surprised that Neifi made two errors to cost us the game and then lead off the following inning with a horrendous strikeout. Neifi is one of the worst players ever to play this game based on career VORP.

If I were Jim Hendry, I would call every other GM and kindly offer Neifi to them...let them laugh at me...and then release Neifi and try and drink away the fact that I signed the worst active player to a $5 million contract.

Juan Pierre looks lost.

Dempster is doing a great Brad Lidge impersonation.

Dusty Baker...do not get me started. He is the idiot that writes 'Neifi Perez' into the lineup 70% of the time...and I cannot wait until Tony Womack becomes the solution...yikes.

On top of all of this, we just got swept by a team starting 6 to 7 rookies on a given day...a team that earns roughly $15 as a team.

And I feel even worse for the people still holding on to the idea that the Cubs will do what the 2005 Astros did. There is a reason that the Astros' run was so impressive...because it doesn't happen very often...odds are that it wont happen again.

Yes, today is a sad day to be a Cubs fan

It was amazing how eerily apt the title of this thread was.....this should be the last post of this thread.


ESK, you're slightly less annoying than Scott. But you're getting close.

ARAM should NOT be traded. Do you forget:
Bill Mueller
Ron Coomer
Willie Greene
Gary Gaetti
Jose Hernandez
Kevin Orie
Leo Gomez
Todd Zeile
Steve Buechele
Luis Salazar
Vance Law....

Shall I continue?
Ramirez is in his prime. His fielding has improved, and he is starting to hit.
15 more years of searching?
No thanks!!!

Hmm..Scott Moore?

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  • Phil, have you heard anything about the condition of Oscar De La Cruz's elbow? Has there been talk of a time table? Is he throwing?

    K Dub 5 hours 5 min ago view
  • i was distracted for most of the game and also missed the first few innings.

    but yeah, any time he makes a good fielding+throwing play on D it's worthy of praise and a trip to pizza hut for a personal pan pizza and $1 worth of songs on the juke box.

    seriously, i'll take it.

    crunch 7 hours 10 min ago view
  • BTW, CRUNCH, Lester made a nice bh pick-up and toss to Bryant. Did you catch it?

    He's been workin' on the D!

    The E-Man 9 hours 6 min ago view
  • j.urias didn't have a good debut...

    2.2ip 5h 4bb 3k...3 r/er...1 wp

    81 pitches. yow.

    crunch 11 hours 50 min ago view
  • Ach - I really only saw it quickly and thought that's where it it. No matter - he crushed it and the video board people did not have to repair the panels from what I saw!

    The E-Man 12 hours 2 min ago view
  • Totally agree with that re Soler, whereas Bryant seems to get the close call (so far) this year.

    Good to see Baez get a couple knocks today - been awhile

    Eric S 12 hours 9 min ago view
  • that works too...there wasnt a good CSN replay...was going off whatever len or jd (dont remember) said.

    crunch 12 hours 14 min ago view
  • I was there. From what I saw it was upper third of the scoreboard

    The E-Man 12 hours 17 min ago view
  • No I have been thinking actually that he seems to lead the Cubs with balls called strikes all year. He really shouldn't be expanding his zone to swing at many of those either because it wouldn't lead to anything good. He's seeing the ball well though so hopefully it'll even out.

    johann 13 hours 15 min ago view
  • So why don't the umps like Soler, or am I just imagining it?

    Rob Richardson 13 hours 26 min ago view
  • Yeah, but he kills lefties.

    billybucks 15 hours 30 min ago view
  • wow...instant hardcore rain.

    rain delay.

    crunch 15 hours 38 min ago view
  • it was massive...hit off the bottom of the LF scoreboard.

    crunch 16 hours 9 min ago view
  • Projected at 461 ft, with a 108 mph exit velocity - longest Cub HR this year by 20 ft (I think Arrieta had the longest?)

    Eric S 16 hours 18 min ago view
  • this team is full of horrible walkup music...rizzo uses 'marky mark and the funky bunch' more than he should...which is any at all.

    d.ross uses alphaville 'forever young' because lulz.

    lastella was using (still might be) 'oh what a night' by the four seasons.

    turrible turrible stuff.

    crunch 16 hours 19 min ago view
  • ROSS #100!

    cubs lead 1-5, bottom 4.

    crunch 16 hours 36 min ago view