Not Your Older Brother’s Rockies

The Rockies whom have resorted to legalized cheating by placing baseballs in a humidor to nullify the "Coors Field effect" are in the thick of the division and wild card races. Has it helped? Here are their regular starting roation's ERAs, home ERA is listed first: Byung-Hyun Kim: 2.75/6.85 Jason Jennings: 3.00/3.84 Jeff Francis: 3.02/3.75 Aaron Cook: 3.81/4.11 Josh Fogg: 5.46/3.88 When you consider the other parks in the NL West are pretty strong pitcher parks beyond SBC (which has played neutral over the last few seasons), you have to wonder if something fishy is going on over there. I'm sure the Rockies are on the up and up and wouldn't dare think about having two sets of baseballs, one with the humidor turned on "Dead Ball Era", the other to "Steroid Era". But it does lead to some questions to exactly what is going on over there. If anything, you have to think the Rockies pitchers are at a major advantage on how the humidor-baseballs react differently on the breaking stuff since they use them on a regular basis. Personally, I think it's ridiculous and should be banned immediately. When did doctoring baseballs become legal again? The great lefty hope Rich Hill is back at it again off two very promising starts. I watched a bit of his last game versus the Pirates and despite the opponent, I thought he did a miraculous job of spotting his fastball on the corners, while mixing in his curve at just the right times. And it really appears that he has his confidence back, which seems to be the most important thing for the kid, who's actually the oldest pitcher on the starting staff at the moment. Go Cubs! GAME ONE HUNDRED-FIFTEEN IN-GAME DISCUSSION THREAD [PARACHAT] CHICAGO CUBS (48-66, (Div) 5th - 14.0 GB; (Wild Card) 12th - 10.5 GB) AT COLORADO ROCKIES (55-59, (Div) 4th - 3.5 GB; (Wild Card) 6th - 3.5 GB) Montecristo Park, 8:05 pm CDT Weather: Cloudy, 86 degrees, Wind in from RF @ 14mph TV: CSN, DirecTV 743 Radio: WGN, XM 188
Aaron Cook, RHP 7-10, 3.95 ERA, 152.2 IP 63 K, 39 BB, 10 HR 291/336/404 sgainstRich Hill, LHP 27 K, 21 BB, 8 HR 284/373/539 against

*Juan Pierre, CF #Cesar Izturis, SS Michael Barret, C Aramis Ramirez, 3B *Jacque Jones, RF #Angel Pagan, LF *John Mabry, 1B Ronny Cedeno, 2B *Rich Hill, P Jamey Carroll, 2B Clint Barmes, SS Garrett Atkins, 3B Matt Holliday, LF Ryan Spilborghs, RF Luis A. Gonzalez, 1B Choo Freeman, CF Danny Ardoin, C Aaron Cook, P

Cubs vs Cook: Cesar Izturis:4-13, 308/438/308, 1 K, 3 BB Phil Nevin: 4-12, 333/385/417, 3 K, 1 BB, 1 2B Rockies vs. Hill: No Rockies with more than 10 AB's
(sigh)...No Murton again. I'd love to see the Cubs stick a first base glove on him or Pagan to keep both of them in the lineup and increase their versatility in case either one or both end up fighting for a bench spot next year. And who the hell is Ryan Spilborghs?
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Comments

Both teams' pitchers use the same balls. The ump gets handfuls at once and doesn't keep tabs on which baseballs are for which pitchers. I wish this game was on WGN so I could see what Hill's curve can do there tonight. Go Cubbies!

WADE MILLER's AA Rehab tonite:

6 IP 1 ER 3 Hits 1 BB 4 K's 1 HBP

left leading Jacksonville 2-1

FSN Baseball Report: "Some insiders expect Pierre's $5.75 million salary to double next season."

Why would anyone pay Pierre 11.5 mil next year?

NYY and LAD are set at the leadoff postion and CF for next year.

LA3 could be in the market for a CF if they chose to put Figgins at 3b and let Erstad (who IIRC is a FA) walk, but they need to spend $$$ on a Clee or Soriano.

COL could use a CF, but dont spend 11.5 million on great players, yet alone good ones.

The most logical bidders for Pierre outside the Cubs are SF and SEA, but I doubt Sea makes that kind of investment and while SF has alot of money avalible this off-season that is because the whole core of that team almost is going to be a FA so I doubt they'll go that high.

PREDICTION: Cubs sign Pierre for 22.5/3 with the money divided out as $7 Million in 07 and then increase by a .5 mil the next 2 years.

contares no hitter broken up with 2 out in the 6th. Sox crushed Verlander.

oh yeah...go Cubs.

If Pierre gets 11 million a year...That's Great!
As long as it ain't the Cubs paying.

AZ Phil --

In the last thread, you suggested that the Cubs realistically could have a roster that includes:

LF J. Jones
CF J. Pierre
RF M. Cabrera
3B A. Ramirez
SS A. Rodriguez or M. Tejada
2B R. Cedeno
1B D. Lee
C M. Barrett

You also suggested that the Cubs could pick up Jason Schmidt and Ted Lilly to be their #1 & #2 starters.

Is this realistic? If so, this team would be a substantial improvement over the 2006 team and would be very competitive in the NL Central.

I think Pierre gets $8 million or so. And at this point the Cubs don't have much choice other than to sign him. And if Hendry wasn't going to sign him, then he should of traded him to try and recoup some of what he traded him for.

AZ Phil,

The only way in the world I would trade Z is IF the Seibu Lions post Daituske Matzuka and we get him. Pitching wins regardless of your line-up just ask the 2005 Red Sox and Yankees.

Well, I hope we can just throw this start by Rich Hill out as he has had two very good starts before this and he was in COL. But this start looked eerily similar to his other starts (4.2 IP, 6 hits, 6ER, 5 BB, 2 K's). I didn't get to watch the game on TV, but those in parachat said his curve was breaking, so that couldn't be his excuse. With Prior most likely going on the DL, we will get to see much more of Hill to see if those 2 starts were a fluke or not.

*The Rockies whom have resorted to legalized cheating by placing baseballs in a humidor to nullify*

Let 'em doctor the balls. Anything that can change Colorado baseball from "Softball on the Moon" to normal baseball is fine by me.

MANNYTRILLO:

"...he should of traded him..."

Its "should have", or "should've" traded him

HS English?

But he didn't. Its a good possibility he'll be around for at least an arbitration year! Pie is NOT ready yet as a full-time starter at the MLB level.

The E-Man:
"HS English?"

No, actually I only got my GED. But thanks professor for the correction, I didn't realize this was being graded.

"But he didn't."

And good job clipping my comment and taking it out of context (F in Journalism 101?). I said, if Hendry wasn't planning on signing him "he should of been traded".

Again, thanks for the English lesson Prof...

Sorry, the last quote should of been after of: "he should of" been traded.

Mannytrillo:

"No, actually I only got my GED."

Is that what they call degrees from PSU? Why am I not shocked?

GO ILLINI!!

well, pierre is gonna be a class-A FA...i mean, if you dont at least get a 1st round tallent for him, trading him is useless. at best the cubs get a #16-30 pick by him going away and a supliimental pick...at worst the cubs get a suplimental pick.

at the very least he can offered arb. and stick around 1 more year.

Chad:
"Is that what they call degrees from PSU? Why am I not shocked? GO ILLINI!!"

Smartass....Go Joe Pa!!!

Crunch:
"at the very least he can offered arb. and stick around 1 more year."

That is exactly what I hope Hendry does. Then there would be no need to rush Pie up.

i'd like to see them go to arb, too...tricky, though.

CF's hunter/mathews jr. will probally be looking longterm deals. chances are pierre would opt for FA looking for some years, too.

the CF situation might get a little ugly concerning pierre wihtout a 3yr deal and/or some serious loot offered.

where this leaves pie...i have no idea. there's so many things to settle out. any shift could change things dramatically as far as 'next logical steps'. the only step taken so far since the team bowed out of 06 has been a minor defensive piece at SS. not much to go on as far as a direction of the bigger stuff so far...

Five years in the minors and some yahoos are talking about rushing Pie.

He's 21 years old....no need to bring him up if another year of AAA will help.

I think that's what everyone is referring to anyway..his 1400 ABs averages out to about 3 full seasons.

What is concerning about Pie is his SO to walk ratio. You take a guy in AAA with 104 SO's and 36 BB's in 451 AB's and then move that same player up to the majors and those walks are going to drop and the strikeouts are going to rise. This happens to most players, even the best ones. Unless your a freak of nature prospect that is almost a given.

Given his current track record in AAA you could expect a player like Pie, who is promoted to the majors, to strikeout 150+ times and walk less than 30 times in 600 AB's.

Essentially your looking at Jeff Francouer. But I don't think Pie has the power stroke that Francouer has. Francouer never walked much in the minors. 22 and 21 BB in 334 and 335 AB's. In 725 AB's in the majors he has 22 BB. You could see Pie somewhere around that range if he was put into the majors now.

And I know people don't like the Corey Patterson comparision to Pie but the results were the same with him. A player who has a 115 SO, 45 BB and 65 SO and 29 BB in 444 AB's and 367 AB's. Walks go down, strikeouts rise.

Pie isn't even close to being ready if he cant improve in that area. Otherwise he is a .250 hitting, 150 SO, less than 30 walk OFer. And that looks alot like what Corey Patterson put up in his time with the Cubs.

CWTP:
"Five years in the minors and some yahoos are talking about rushing Pie."

I must be a yahoo then....YYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

But I don't care if he has been in the minors for 10 years. He is only 21 years old. It is not like he is tearing up AAA.

Here's the inside scoop on the Giradi stuff:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/content/...

CWTP,

There is no thing as High School ball in the Domican Republic. So of those 5 years the 1st 2 were spent in really low levels of the system. Honestly he should have started the 1st half year in West Tenn to give him a year in AA and if he played well there then bring him up to Iowa. Pie needs to stay at AAA next year until atleast the 4th of July to work on his plate disclpine and cutting down his swing or MLB pitchers will dominate him. Why people want to rush every good prospect we have, when it blows up in our faces time after time is amazing to me. Now if Hendry actually goes out and spends money this winter and needs Pie to start to save $$$ I'm all for that, but thats the only reason he should break Mesa with the team.

so we got that going for us, which is nice...

Looks like Mark Pawelek has finally gotten in shape to pitch. Maybe Prior needs a month in Boise.

from the Boise Hawks site:

The Boise hawks won their fourth game in a row Friday night, beating he Everett Aqua Sox 8-2. Mark Pawelek got the win in one his best starting performances of the season. The 19-year old left-hander pitched six shutout innings allowing just two hits, both coming in the first two innings. Pawelek retired 14 batters in a row before tiring in the seventh inning and giving up three singles to load the bases and turning the game over to the bullpen.

Matt Camp ignited the offense for Boise with a bases loaded single off Everett starter Chris Tillman. Steve Clevengerís second hit of the night drove in a run in the three run third inning and D.J. Lewis doubled in another run.

CF's hunter/mathews jr. will probally be looking longterm deals. chances are pierre would opt for FA looking for some years, too.

Yeah, this is going to be an interesting decision about Pierre. I'm not opposed to keeping him around for another year, maybe 2 years, but signing him to a 3+ year deal doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If that's what Pierre is demanding, offer arbitration and take the draft picks.

I say rebuild next year. Offer pierre arb. Sign 2 free agent SP's and see where the offense gets us. Evaluate Lee. Murton. etc. this team needs some serious help. they're shit.

The real reason for the Izturis trade, Dusty's been waiting for the return of a DP combo as "good" as Marty Perez and Larvell Blanks! Oooh, ahhh...

excerpted from Christina Kahrl (from Baseball Prospectus) on the Cubs side of the Maddux-Izturis trade:

Blech...If they instead think that, because Izturis is under contract through 2008, they'll have a particularly slick-fielding middle infield combo of Izturis...Cedeno, then they're just begging to suck. A combination of Izturis and Cedeno won't score runs for you, but it will conjure up memories of particularly feeble middle infield combos of the '70s, like the ones that Dusty Baker played with when he was a Brave (who can forget Marty Perez and Larvell Blanks in 1975?). Izturis has had a pair of good Aprils (in 2004 and 2005), which helps create the impression that he can play, where the rest of his career gives a pretty solid indication that he whatever else, he really shouldn't be an everyday player. It's more appalling still when you recognize that Neifi Perez is also under contract for next season, so the Cubs may well wind up with all three of their middle infielders struggling to post a .300 OBP.

I think the Cubs are painted in a corner on Juan Pierre. They know Pie is not ready. If Pie starts the year on fire at AAA, they can replace Jones or Murton. They pretty much have to sign Pierre and given the market, I'm guessing 3 yrs.

They can't trade Zambrano, he's their only reliable starter. Their biggest need is starting pitching, they can't subtract one to fill another spot.

Mannytrillo:

"No, actually I only got my GED."

Chad:
Is that what they call degrees from PSU? Why am I not shocked?

GO ILLINI!!"

Manny:

You're right - I am a prof., but not English. My bad, no suggestions or critiques of grammar are useful here at TCR.

Make JoPa proud! And - what about that new QB??

I too think Prior should go back and get the minor league training he didn't really receive in his early career. I just don't think Prior has the makeup and stuff to be a major league pitcher. There's a good chance he "altered" his body in high school and college to be the strength pitcher he was and when baseball started testing for that sort of thing Prior had to stop altering his body so as not to get caught and kicked out of the game. If the case, since then he's become a AA/AAA quality pitcher.....and I predict he will end up being out of baseball and probably the most overrated starting pitcher of all time.

Prior heading back to Dl?

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt...

Just shut him down, send him to a therapist-physical and mental.

Just shut him down, send him to a therapist-physical and mental.

No...save the money and just cut your losses.

Does anyone else see the pattern of the disabled list being used to save egos or remove a guy who is just struggling so badly they'd rather call up someone else to give a try?

Just because your name is Prior (or Wood for that matter) doesn't mean you are immune from sucking...and sucking doesn't mean there is a thing wrong with you.

You can rest assure that two bad back-to-back performances ensures a trip to the DL even though you aren't hurt...you just suck. As one columnist wrote the Disinterested List is becoming quite a club.

Do we still have options on Prior or is the only way you can send a player who sucks back to the minors is lying through the DL list?

Rather than send Prior to theDL list they should send him back to the minors

what's prior supposed to do in the minors?

he's missing his arm slot and target...there ya go. no trip to AAA will fix/solve that...its his issue. pitching IN GAMES might not help, but whatever's causing him to release/target badly (injury, lack of repetition, loss of touch, etc) does need help.

a trip to the minors doesnt solve these things unless theyre being a distration to the big club with their whining or stuggles.

Crunch:
"but whatever's causing him to release/target badly (injury, lack of repetition, loss of touch, etc) does need help."

Him getting shelled every start while he is trying to figure out what is wrong, shouldn't be done here. It should be done in the minors or while on the DL.

Prior is going to have to prove he is worthy next Spring Training that he deserves to be in the starting rotation. No spot should be saved for him, so anything he does now means nothing. Shut him down and see if he can get healthy in 6 months for ST. Then let him prove his worth. If not, cut your losses.

Manny-
It doesn't happen often, but I agree with you.
Prior should be shut down to work with Rothschild, Tom House, or the ghost of Mordecai Brown on getting his arm slot consistent, and getting his mechanics consistent.
He should not be counted on for 2007, but should have to show up healthy, in shape, and have a good spring to get into the rotation.

no trip to AAA will fix/solve that...

So plan B is more towel drills?

When a pitcher, no matter how touted and isn't found to have a disabling cause, pitches like crap game after game, he either goes to the bullpen, the DL or the minors (or in Glendon Rusch's case, he goes to Dunkin' Donuts).

More seriously, I expect they will just shut him down and hope 2007 is a do-over for Prior. I do have suspicions that MP has some chronic illness that for privacy reasons will not be disclosed to the press/public. We know he has some allergy issues but I expect there is something more specific with a medical cause for his current condition and it isn't injury related. I don't mean to imply anything anabolic steroid related, more like Crohn's Disease, Asthma, Psoriatic arthritis, Fibromyalgia or something that diminishes or affects strength. Some of the newer drug testing has limited high level athletes from using some of the meds available to treat their conditions. For example know what impact having Asthma has had on Matt Clement. We know that patients including athletes privacy must get respected (there are federal privacy laws these days called HIPAA with potential heavy fines for violating these laws) including historical examples like Ron Santo getting his Diabetic condition kept private during his on field career.

I sense something akin to that is going on behind the scenes.

Athletes with chronic conditions and meds:
http://tinyurl.com/pm767

HIPAA explained:
http://tinyurl.com/jvujw

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/s...

all kinds of details on the Girardi/Loria fight

Asked if Loria had fired him and changed his mind, Girardi replied: "I'll discuss things at the end of the year. Right now the important thing is our club, and I'm still the manager of the Marlins.''

Reading between the lines, does Girardi know he's getting fired at the end of the year? Why would he willing to discuss it after the season if he plans to stay? Hmmmm....

Prior is a complete mystery. But face it. As things stand now, he is AT BEST a very average major league pitcher. Oh, sure, he has potential bla bla bla. I agree with those who say shut this guy down for the year. And then he should be told, look Mark, we cannot guarentee you a spot in the rotation next year. Get a trainer and get to work over the off season. Or go to India and try transcedental meditation with a maharishi. Do whatever it takes. But you better come to spring training healthy and in shape or do not bother coming at all.

I have had way more than enough of this guy. This guy rode into town with his standoffish attitude. Okay, we will put up with that when you play like a major leaguer. But Mark plays like a minor leaguer now. I do have to wonder about the possibility that Mark became Mark on steroids. And now that he has to pitch without them, he cannot do it. His health is breaking down. And he just does not have the skills to pitch without the help of steroids. He does not know how to do it.

Yes, we have wasted money on this guy. But thank goodness we did not give him even more money. One thing I can tell you for sure . . . the Twins have never regretted signing Joe Mauer instead of Prior. Not for a second.

Oh, Prior was on steroids? Holy crap dude you got a hell of scoop, maybe you can sell the story to a national magazine and retire in style.

Everyone give ARM a hand. So when does this story break? I can't wait to read how you caught Prior on steroids.

Re: Prior ---

Just dump him on his ass. He has no trade value and he has no baseball value. He's worse than useless. He's the Ryan Leaf of MLB.

He's probably not on roids (or coming off of them) but something is wrong. He looks like shit - both on the mound and physically. He looks pale sick... like he should be in a hospital bed.

I agree that Prior looks ill. I don't mean the flu or food poisoning, I mean really pal, thin and weak. Of course, the fans have been pretty down on all of his ailments. My take is that he is pitching when he shouldn't be but is tired of all of the comments that he is a wus. If he is as ill as he appears, then I think comments like calling him useless are classless.

avoid running into a 2nd baseman, taking a comeback off the elbow, and you got a guy who's gonna put in near 200ip the past couple years (sans injury-gate).

kerry, ow my elbow, ow my shoulder, ow surgery #1, ow surgery #2, ow surgury #3, etc. isnt mark prior...at least not yet.

Maybe it's AIDS?

Anyway, Jack McDowell broke the Prior on steroids story years ago.

Offer Pierre arbitration and let him walk. Try to trade for Jones or Wells, if that doesn't work out, sign Matthews to a frontloaded 3 year deal and let him become an overpriced 4th outfielder if Pie ever becomes ready, and go after Wells or Jones again after 2007.

Oh yeah, I could see Pittsburg going after Pierre too.

jack mcD didnt break s**t.

he just made another one of his off-the-cuff remarks in print that has led to...well...how much j.mcD stuff your read recently?

espn, yahoo...seems those mouthpieces have scaled back or dropped his rantings.

I can't believe the Prior apologists. Of course, realistic expectations are not a Cubs fan's forte.

At least Wood had things physically wrong with him.

I am liking the Astros, who will find themselves with plenty of payroll after this season, for Carlos Lee's destination.

astros free up huge loot.

the baggage of pettit and clemens alone is almost 30m...pettite's getting 17m this year...hurrah for backloaded contracts.

oswalt/biggio will probally be retained, but the raises for both of them (if biggio gets one at all) shouldnt eat more than 5/6-ish million combined.

they free up another 17m of bagwell, but have to pay 7m to buy him out.

they're looking to be one of the richest teams this offseason...but their core is kinda questionable.

berkman/p.wilson...lidge/ensberg/lamb/backe/burke/l.scott

lidge/ensberg will probally get raises, too...arb eligable...lamb, a small bump...wilson get a 4m raise...i guess you can add ausmus to the 2ndary core list i made, but he gets paid 500K less (3.5m) next year.

others should get small raises at worst (unless i missed someone).

pettite makes 17.5m, btw...

should be interesting to see what a.everette gets...their no-bad all-glove SS.

he settled out of arb for 1.9m last year (after posting a cubs-only-play-these-guys-though-there's-more-than-a-few-in-mlb .243/.294/.335 line in 549abs last year).

07 will be his 5th eligable year.

Who do you think is the better prospect: Matt Garza or Cole Hamels?

cole if he can keep his elbow/shoulder in shape (and his hand outta bar fights).

dunno if he's technically a prospect anymore, but that's besides the point...he's still very young.

well cole is a prospect...after this year he'll lose his eligability to be labeled that.

injuries have delayed his career, though he's still so very young. hi angel guzman, how you doing?

I suppose Prior could have some chronic condition that effects his health/strength and stamina--that is entirely possible. I do suspect though that major leaguers go through extensive yearly physicals with a complete blood test analysis that tests for just about everything. You don't sign guys to long term multi-million dollar contracts and only run a blood iron test..cholestoral test...drug test..sugar test and HIV/STD tests....I'm pretty sure they check for just about everything they have available to test for. Maybe I'm wrong but I would think this should be the case.

Prior's ill looking appearance could very well be stress or psychosomatic disorder. Personally I think Prior is a mess upstairs since the Bartman game and hasn't been the same since. It's ironic and could be just strictly coincidental that Prior's downfall began when serious steroid testing began in baseball. Hey steroids KILL guys....maybe Prior's health is negatively effected by steroid use. It causes early deaths and illness young healthy adults not on steroids don't suffer.

I'm not saying I know Prior was on steroids...strictly saying it's a distinct possibility and his ill-effects could very well be from years of steroid abuse.

Whatever the case something isn't right with him and the Cubs should cut bait with this guy. He isn't major league worthy...so if baseball is his passion then he should be playing in the minors...NOT because it will help Prior...but because Prior isn't/won't help any major league club at this moment. He could have some value to a minor league franchise somewhere...and since the Cubs still have a contract on him--he might as well try to help a club somewhere in the system.

how about prior got sick, it put him in the hospital...he got out and sat around and did nothing...got out to 90F+ arizona and was like "omg."

sounds a bit more likely than AIDS or chronic blah blah syndrome or roids or stress or being haunted by a playoff game in 03.

i mean, damn...

According to Billy Corgan, Mark Prior has gout.

If true, that explains everything.

"Personally I think Prior is a mess upstairs since the Bartman game and hasn't been the same since."

You do know that his best game as a pro came AFTER the Bartman game. 9 ip 3 hits 1 r 16 ks and 1 bb.

Also pre 2005 arm break, here are his starts:

6 ip 0 er 6/1 k/bb
7 0 er 6/2 k/bb
6 ip 2 er 10/2 k/bb
5 ip 8 er 7/3 k/bb
8 ip 1 er 10/2 k/bb
7 ip 1 er 7/3 k/bb
7 ip 3 er 6/1 k bb
9 ip 3 er 7/1
then in the colorado game before the comebacker:
3.1 1 er 3/3

Steroids? I have no opinion on that matter. I will say that the Bartman game had ZERO effect on him.

Oh give it a rest, MikeC. All I said was that it is that a possible explanation for Prior's current situation is that he used steroids. Many people have raised that as a possiblity, or likelihood, both before and, yes, even after my post. Are you a member of the forum police? If so, you had better get busy and ready to post your personal attack in # 41 again and again and again and again . . . . Gee, get a life, dude.

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