Kid Wonder Hits DL, Nature Lover Called Up

Game time is fast approaching but the Cubs made (another) roster move today as Ryan O'Malley found out what life as a Cubs pitcher is like pretty fast, hitting the DL with a "medial left elbow sprain". Jae-kuk Ryu has been called up to rid Wrigley of annoying pigeons that hang out under the grandstands. In other news, Will Carroll over at BP.com has heard some whispers that Prior's shoulder issues may be similar to Kerry Wood's. And well that rehabilitation process went really well. And is it the same injury that Wood had surgery for or the one that was just diagnosed? Unless the first diagnosis was a misdiagnosis, which in that case it's all the same injury. Carroll also teases us with this little bit:
Marcus Giles wonít return to the Braves lineup until the weekend. The Braves are expected to deal him in the offseason.
(Drooling) And Derrek Lee looked fantastic in batting practice the other day and reported none of the issues afterwards that he experienced the first time he tried to come back.
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Comments

Nature lover called up. (giggle)

For those of you that keep track on these kind of things, Will Ohman switched jersey numbers from #50 to #13.

Giles will make $5 million for sure next year in his last year of arbitration.

With his stats getting worse each of the the past 4 year, I wouldn't exactly be drooling over him.

2003: .316/.390/.526/.917
2004: .311/.378/.443/.821
2005: .291/.365/.461/.826
2006: .267/.353/.395/.748

Of course he would be an upgrade over Cedeno, but who wouldn't?

Also, he is good for only like 10 HR max, but K's 100 times a year lately.

The team will actually rotate #13, in homage to its previous owner.

What is this nature lover joke? I missed something...

Ryu was the pitcher that threw and hit an osprey (bird) when he was playing for the Daytona Cubs. Here is a good story on him...

http://www.whotv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5018900

my bad manny, he sucks. He hit like a corner outfielder in 2003 with a 916 OPS and a OBP just south of 400 with 21 HR's and he's in a steady decline at age 28. I suppose you would have said the same thing about Aramis a few years back.

Plus he hit 21 HR's in 2003, 15 in 2005, the 2 seasons which he's played full season so far. But yeah 10 is his max.

Let's also throw-in above average defender and a good baserunner and he's been trying to gut through a nagging hand/wrist problem all year.

Who would you want playing second base that might be available Manny?

I can't see the Braves trading Giles.

post ASB

.324 .385 .457

.842 OPS

Rob,

Not that I am agreeing with Manny, but 4 years removed from your best season isn't the best scenario. And I was going to ask if he had been battling some sort of injury this year. But he should still be good for exceptional-very good offense for the next 3-4 years and above average defense. I would go after him too. But that OBP is way too high for Hendry to go after.

You should know by now how Manny does it. He offers no solutions, so he can never be wrong.

Sarcasm in the Post Titling Dept is up 430%!!!

Giles defense is outstanding too. Izturis would be acceptable at SS if you add Giles production at 2B.

well his best season would make him a Hall of Famer if he did it every year at 2b and he did that when he was about 24. I'll take his normal numbers for the next 5 years on the Cubs and I'm betting he'll have a few more 2003's in him.

I'm not sure if the Braves will trade him or not. Betemit trade makes you think they'd want to keep him, but the Braves seem to be lacking on pitching in the farm system while loaded with position prospects. I'm guessing they'd like to trade Andruw Jones to get some pitching, but being a 10/5 man will make that a little tougher.

Whatever, I can dream....

Man, a little defensive today Rob G.? I never said he sucks, just that I wouldn't be "drooling" over the guy, especially when looking that his numbers have declined the past 4 years. if you think he is going to bounce back to 2003/04 numbers then yeah you should drool, but at this point there is nothing to me that shows he will.

Maybe we can get Giles and Andruw Jones from them. I read earlier that the Cubs were seriously thinking about resigning Pierre and that he would go for about $10 mil per, if that is the case I would rather have some pop in the lineup.

Get Giles, bat him first, then Murton, then Lee, Ramirez, A. Jones, Barrett, J. Jones, Cedeno, and pitcher. That is a lineup I get enjoy.

Rob G.:
"Who would you want playing second base that might be available Manny?"

I wouldn't mind Loretta or Durham or Giles (but not drooling).

Vince:
"You should know by now how Manny does it. He offers no solutions, so he can never be wrong."

What do you think Rob G.?

Giles has battled various stupid nagging injuries pretty much every year. Id take him over Cedeno.

Hes not Neifi.

you basically inferred that his only redeeming quality is that he'd be better than Cedeno.

He doesn't need to bounce back to 2003, just get over his current hand/wrist injuries and hit like he has in 2004 and 2005. His 2006 isn't that bad either as it's pretty reasonable that his loss in power/average can be attributed to his hand/wrist issues he's had.

Still waiting for your 2b of choice....

Rob G.:
"you basically inferred that his only redeeming quality is that he'd be better than Cedeno."

That is what YOU inferred. My point of the post was that he is nothing to "drool" about. Nothing more, nothing less.

"Still waiting for your 2b of choice...."

Try and read post #14.

my bad, didn't see your comment #14, ignore the last line of #17.

Durham's defense is on a downslide and he's old
Loretta has no power

From guys I think may be available, I'd go with
Giles
Giles
Giles

then
Durham
Loretta
Kennedy in a platoon, with who I don't know.

Rob G.:
"From guys I think may be available, I'd go with
Giles"

That is cool, I think he would clearly be an upgrade over Cedeno, even if he continues his 4 year decline. And like others have said, there is no guarentee this guy is actually availible. But if he is we also have to trade for him (give up players), not just sign him via FA like the others (and only give up a draft pick).

4 year decline huh?

How is his 2005 a decline from his 2004?

Manny, the ever vigilant contrarian.

"How is his 2005 a decline from his 2004?"

Bad luck on BABIP?

He's 28. His career is obviously winding down.
His plate discipline is getting better too.

If Hendry gives $10 million to Pierre, I am literally going to start writing letters. The ironic thing about Pierre is that his stolen base speed doesn't show up in his crappy OPS, but the # of extra bases his arm allows probably perfectly negates any value his SB's would acrue. Please, Please, Please, Coletti do another Furcal on Hendry.

Rob G.:
"How is his 2005 a decline from his 2004?"

His BA and OBP went down, his slugging went up. Then his 2006 is way worse than both. I think the overall downward trend is pretty obvious.

Vorare:
"Manny, the ever vigilant contrarian."

I am not against getting Giles to replace Cedeno (pending who we need to trade and how much he costs), but my point was he not is someone I would drool over.

his walk rate went up in 2005 over 2004, so did his home run rate, so did all his counting numbers cause he played more games. His overall downward trend to oblivion is obvious....

Too bad Grudz isn't available....

"my bad manny, he sucks. He hit like a corner outfielder in 2003 with a 916 OPS and a OBP just south of 400 with 21 HR's and he's in a steady decline at age 28. I suppose you would have said the same thing about Aramis a few years back."

Have you noticed how he has played against the CUBS?! How about the Braves last visit to Wrigley?

Also, have you thought that he could be used a a designated "Pitcher Collider" to put hated rival pitchers on the DL - or even start career-threatening head-case scenarios?

MANNY: DURHAM?????? C'Mon. you can do better than that! Why don'yt you just bring back Chet Lemon? The "stop-gap" play you often advocate gets old. We don't know if Eric Patterson is going to make it in the bigs. He could turn out like - I don't know - Ryan Theriot or someone in MLB.

Rob G.:
"His overall downward trend to oblivion is obvious...."

HA HA, sorry you got so defensive Rob G., it wasn't meant to be that way. Just to point out that I wouldn't drool over him. I will drop it, or we will have another 300 post thread just on that topic. Go TCR...

Blauser played good against the Cubs too, that didn't work out too well. Doing good against the Cubs isn't much to hang your hat on, a matter of fact if you don't do well against us, I'm surprised if you're still in baseball. :)

Unless Giles actually becomes available there are no cornerstone 2b available E-Man, don't hate Durham cause he's 35. 35 year-olds are people too.

I'd take Lofton and Durham in a second on our team next year. Maybe we can do better, but we certainly could do worse.

The E-Man:
"MANNY: DURHAM?????? C'Mon. you can do better than that! Why don'yt you just bring back Chet Lemon? The "stop-gap" play you often advocate gets old."

I think you have me confused with someone else. I RARELY advocate "stop-gaps", as I don't think the minor league system has many players to stop gap too. I don't really have any confidence is the Cubs minor league system and most certainly wouldn't stop getting any top player and sign him for multiple years due to a player who is supposedsly ready in the next year or so.

"I'd take Lofton and Durham in a second on our team next year. Maybe we can do better, but we certainly could do worse."

Ironically, if that were our opening day 1-2 next year you'll be seeing a lot of Pie and Patterson. I'm not really sold on Giles defense either, I think it can be argued you could get Lugo for the same $, who would be healthier and provide similar offense, and won't cost a Guzman or Marshall and two more throw-ins.

Is it right after the regular season that the Free Agent grades are announced?

Ironically, if that were our opening day 1-2 next year you'll be seeing a lot of Pie and Patterson.

I'm fine with that. Sure, I'd prefer Jones or Wells in CF, maybe even Wilkerson. And I'd prefer we'd trade for Utley or Weeks or Kendrick, but Lofton and Durham would be improvements over what we have now. If we can get and afford superstars at those positions, great, but we all can't be the Yankees.

I'm not really sold on Giles defense either

Really? I know you like BP's defensive numbers or at least you use them all the time, he comes out pretty high over there and the scouting reports I've read of him are pretty glowing.

Lugo's 3 years older with less power and how is he going to be healthier? And since he's a FA and one of the very few SS's on the market, I'm sure he'd like to stay there.

"I'm not really sold on Giles defense either"
--

Have you seen him play? He plays a mean 2B... great range up the middle and never gives up on any ball. His range to his left is amazing.

Well according to FP (13th), ZR (20th) and RF (17th), Giles is average at best this year at 2B in MLB. They are not the end all be all in defensive stats, but overall all 3 together can give you a good starting point.

Are you just looking at this year's stats or something on Giles?

Watching someone actually play defense gives you a good ending point. He's a superior defender.

End o' subect

Rob G.:
"Are you just looking at this year's stats or something on Giles?"

I am looking at this years stats.

Weeks would be an interesting acquisition because the Brewers are rumored to moving him off 2B because of weak defense. Any thoughts?

okay, go read some scouting reports, take a look at his career numbers and take a look at some better defensive stats and come back to me....

MANNY: "I RARELY advocate "stop-gaps","

Sorry. Then I take it back!

Rob: You are RIGHT about Blauser!!! Yuchhhh!! He was TERRIBLE, wasn't he? Boy the Braves fleeced us on that one too...

However, it would be great to sign a stable 2b who is a solid hitter that isn't at the last 2 or three years of his career.

Will Julio Franco be available?

Inter-division trades involving superstars or potential superstars don't happen very often. He wouldn' be traded to the Cubs that's for sure.

Actually looking at his defensive stats, they are in a somewhat downward trend like his offensive stats.

2003: FP (.982) RF (5.55) ZR (.869)
2004: FP (.975) RF (5.42) ZR (.829)
2005: FP (.984) RF (5.18) ZR (.800)
2006: FP (.984) RF (4.76) ZR (.793)

His fielding percentage has gotten slightly better, but his range factor and zone rating have gotten worse.

Watching him play he seems to play a bit deep, not quite Brett Boone deep, but since ML hitters were too stupid to bunt on Brett Boone, I guess they probably let Giles get away with it too.

Looking at his stats...he's under average this year according to BP, so I guess Manny's stats are current. I think I've watched 2 Braves games this year, though. 19 FRAA in 2003 looks a bit fluky. I don't think BP does any GB/FB pitcher #'s in their stats. Anedoctal evidence: A Jones didn't lose much in 2003, but Derosa had really high numbers backing up Giles as well.

Hey everybody,

Remember last week or Hendry said on the Murphs' show, that he didnt value OBP as much as Batting Avg with runners in scoring position.

Well, I looked at the stats for this year and that is probably a small sample size, but top 7 team in runs scored, are in the top 10 in OBP. Also, top 10 in BA with RISP, only 50% are in top 10 in scoring runs.

Tell telling stat:

Of the top 10 teams in scoring, all of them are in the top 11 in Slugging!!!

Teams 7-10 in scoring are not in the top 10 in OBP.

Slugging matters and OBP. OPS comes out the same. all top 10 are in top 11 in OPS.

So, Batting Avg with RISP isn't that important if 50% of the top 10 are not in the top 10 in runs scored.

Hendry doesnt get it and doesnt know how to evaluate players.

Now if you have stud rotation, this doesnt matter as much either, but we dont.

Hendryball:
"Hendry doesnt get it and doesnt know how to evaluate players."

Haven't you heard? Dusty is the one who makes personel decisions? Come on man, wake up...:)

Hendryball person.

You need 30-35 samples to have a 90% confidence interval while attempting to prove statistical correlation. If you do the same anedoctal study for 1999 (for instance) you may find that RISP is the best indicator and in 2004 it was OBP.

The 2006 Cubs offense is really quite outstanding in that they're quite awful in all three of those measures.

"they are in a somewhat downward trend like his offensive stats."

Manny, you make it sound like Giles went like this from 2003-2005
.316/.380/.520
.275/.330/.430
.245/.290/.380

This is a guy who is 28, in his prime, who has had really good seasons in 2003 and 2005, with 2004 derailed by injury.
I agree that I wouldn't "drool" over Giles, but having a second baseman even getting his career averages of .292/.366/.461 would be a refreshing change of pace.

Dusty:
"Manny, you make it sound like Giles went like this from 2003-2005
.316/.380/.520
.275/.330/.430
.245/.290/.380"

I didn't make it sound that way (you might of taken it that way) as I posted his exact numbers over those years and his numbers have gone in a downward trend. No, it is not a massive downward trend like Sosa at the end of his career, but still it is enough to raise an eyebrow and take a serious look at.

"I agree that I wouldn't "drool" over Giles"

Then we are 100% on the same page. That was my point from the origianl post on the subject.

"but having a second baseman even getting his career averages of .292/.366/.461 would be a refreshing change of pace."

Yes, if he can rebound back up to his career averages, and we got him in a reasonable trade and amount paid, I would be very happy. It just scares me that both his offensive and defensive stats have gone in a downward trend over the past 4 years for whatever reason.

It just scares me that both his offensive and defensive stats have gone in a downward trend over the past 4 years for whatever reason.

buy a clue...

just cause you say downward trend over the past 4 years over and over doesn't make it true. And even if he has been slipping every year since 2003 (which he's not), it would be the last 3 years that he's gotten worse, so learn how to count.

And of course, he hasn't been getting worse every year, he hit like a Hall of Famer in 2003 and has been playing mostly like himself the last 3 years. And his 2005 was better than his 2004. But keep trying to spin it pal and if you just keep repeating yourself over and over you may even convince yourself.

Somone name me 3 better second basemen who might be available this off-season who will be better than Giles over the next 3-5 years?

Rob G.:
"buy a clue..."

Actually the scalping buisness I am is running a little slow since the Cubs are like 20 games under .500, so can you spot me $20? Thanks!

But seriously Rob, I can't understand how you can't see he has slipped the past 3 years (is that better?).

2003: .316/.390/.526/.917
2004: .311/.378/.443/.821
2005: .291/.365/.461/.826
2006: .267/.353/.395/.748

2004 was worse that 2003, a considerable drop. 2005 was about the same as 2004 (worse BA and OBP, but better SLG) and now 2006 is worse than 2004/2005, anotehr considerable drop. Now you can say he is injured and all and that may be the case and maybe he can reverse the trend next year, but nothing you can can show he is improving.

And I have NEVER said he is not a good player or even someone I would be pissed if hendry went after (pending who we gave up and how much he is owed). But I would not drool over him and I would have a leery eye on him.

Ok, PAL??

A practical question. John Schuerholz wasn't born yesterday and is one of the shrewdest operators around. One, I'm not convinced he will trade Marcus Giles. Two, what on bloody earth are the Cubs going to be able to give up that will make Atlanta want to pull the trigger? The Braves need pitching. Pitching isn't exactly a commodity the Cubs are flush with these days. Last time I checked we have 4 question marks behind Carlos Zambrano in the rotation.

Manny-#52...

BWWWAAHAHHAAHA-HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Last time I checked we have 4 question marks behind Carlos Zambrano in the rotation.

Do you really think that every pitching prospect pulls a Liriano and is a Cy Young candidate right out of the gate?

Yes, the Cubs young pitchers have been wildly inconsistant, but most young pitchers are to some degree or another. It hardly means that the pitchers aren't worth anything or that the Cubs are thin on pitching prospects. That simply might be the most ignorant conclusion I've seen reached in a long long time.

Hell, back in 2001 and 2002, I suppose you were saying that this Carlos Zambrano kids won't amount to anything either since he gave up 13 runs in his first 7 innings followed it up with a 4-8 record the next year? I guess Cole Hammels and Felix Hendandez are pretty worthless too, since they haven't been dominating this year.

end o subject

"If Hendry gives $10 million to Pierre, I am literally going to start writing letters."

Wow, such drastic measures. That might be the weakest threat I've ever heard.

Let's be careful throwing the "ignorant" label around. A case can be made for you being "delusional" and drinking that good ole fashion Cubbie Kool-Aid. When I said the Cubs have 4 question marks in their starting rotation I meant it. But that doesn't mean I think Sean Marshall, Carlos Marmol, Juan Mateo, Rich Hill or Angel Guzman are garbage.

We aren't talking the Kansas City Royals or Pittsburgh Pirates here. Rather we are talking about a hugely disappointing Cub team with big payroll flexibility. Jim Hendry should be hung by his limbs if he goes into 2007 with Carlos Zambrano the only proven certainty in the rotation.

The aforementioned five names should be competing for no more than two starting rotation spots in 2007. Anything more than that is criminal on a Cub team that has $100 million or so to field a contending ballclub. Of the five names, I like Angel Guzman the most. And Guzman is definitely anything from a sure thing given his massive injury history. I also think Sean Marshall will be the real deal, but it might take a year or two. I won't be surprised if Marshall winds up pitching in Triple A next year.

That's fine that you believe the Cubs have 4 question marks. Having any 4 rookies in your rotation is pretty much a recepie for exactly what we've seen this year, and I certainly don't think that the Cubs should be counting on all of the kids again if they want to compete next year.

But it is exceptionally ignorant to say that because the young pitchers have been inconsistant, that the Cubs don't have any good young pitching prospects that could be good trading chips.

The fact is, you don't want all of the Cubs pitching prospects pitching in the same rotation. But if you need an arm or two now to fill out a rotation, with a reasonable possibility they will develope into solid starters with a little more seasoning, then you can't do much better than what the Cubs have to offer.

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