The Last Road Game Of The Season

After this, it's back to Wrigley for a -- what's the opposite of "victory lap" anyway? Go Cubs! GAME ONE HUNDRED FIFTY-SEVEN IN-GAME DISCUSSION THREAD [PARACHAT] CHICAGO CUBS (63-93 (Draft) 3rd - 4.5 GB) AT CINCINNATI REDS (76-79 (Div) 3rd - 4.5 GB; (WC) 4th - 6.0 GB) The Great American Home Run Park, 11:35 pm CDT Weather: Sunny, 60 degrees, Wind out to L @ 5 mph TV: WGN, DirecTV 735 Radio: WGN, XM 186
Bronson Arroyo, RHP 14-10, 3.38 ERA, 226.2 IP 176 K, 59 BB, 31 HR 246/297/404 againstWade Miller, RHP 0-2, 4.97 ERA, 12.2 IP 14 K, 12 BB, 3 HR 222/397/444 against

*Juan Pierre, CF Ryan Theriot, 2B Aramis Ramirez, 3B Matt Murton, LF #Angel Pagan, RF *John Mabry, 1B Henry Blanco, C Ronny Cedeno, SS Wade Miller, P *Chris Denorfia, CF *Scott Hatteberg, 1B Rich Aurilia, SS Adam Dunn, LF Edwin Encarnacion, 3B Brandon Phillips, 2B *Todd Hollandsworth, RF David Ross, C Bronson Arroyo, P

Cubs vs. Arroyo: Aramis Ramirez: 4-14, 286/333/571, 2 K, 1 BB, 1 HR Jacque Jones: 3-18, 167/211/222, 2 K, 1 BBReds vs. Miller: Rich Aurilia: 6-16, 375/474/500, 3 BB Adam Dunn: 1-23, 043/185/174, 13 K, 4 BB, 1 HR
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Comments

Suppository?

Trudge of Sludge ?

Debacle Cycle?

Walk (or lack of Walks) of Shame?

Slogging, Not Clogging?

Losers Lurch?

A pub crawl?

Note to Ryan Dumpster,

Wade Miller Today:

Stuff: LOUSY
Command: EXCELLENT
Result: 5 IP, 0 Runs, 3 hits

Right on, CWTP.

I hope Mabry gets enough ABs to finish the season below .200. What an absolutely terrible baseball player. Love those toosly low average-no speed-no power guys. He is an insult to the game of baseball.

Mabry is playing with a severely sprained wrist, and has been battling a back injury most of the season.

Give him credit: he figured out how to to be a Cub in less than a year. For a lot of guys, it takes at least a couple of years.

Great Dusty thinking on Mabry -- crap player who is hurt -- let's get him in the lineup!!

Mabry is playing with a severely sprained wrist, and has been battling a back injury most of the season.

...take his bat away and get him a violin, I'm getting teary-eyed just thinking about all his pain.

This year's Cubs are not bad enough to lose 100 games, chalk another one up for their incomplete incompetence. What a bunch of oxymorons.

You, along his agent and accountant.

Mabry is doing irreparable damage to his free agency this winter by playing hurt for a screwed-up club that is 30 games under .500.

Mabry may not be a world beater anymore, but he is a solid, old school pro who is taking one for the team- right in his wallet.

Bummer for Wade Miller -- 5 shutout innings, leaves leading 4-0, but the bullpen blows another one, and it wasn't even Dumpster! Classic Cubs pitching in the 7th -- 2 outs, nobody on, leading 4-0. Walked the bases loaded, and gave up 2 runs.

Go draft pick!

I like Wade Miller and everything, and today he showed he could get people out with an 86 MPH fastball... but I don't see how he's a winning strategy for next year. I hope the Cubs don't bother.

I don't know what control Miller supposedly had, 3 walks in 5 innings and 42 of 86 pitches were balls. Bleh....

At best he looks to be a league average pitcher next year with no guarantee of staying healthy. Why bother?

Wuertz got a hold without getting an out? Great stat...

Billbucks:
"Great Dusty thinking on Mabry -- crap player who is hurt -- let's get him in the lineup!!"

Len said something in the 8th inning about Dusty having nobody to PH Mabry for (Schoenwise was pitching), so I think Moore is hurt or something.

just like South Park, blame Canada...

My bullpen is worn out," Baker said. "They're overpitched, big time."

"At best he looks to be a league average pitcher next year with no guarantee of staying healthy. Why bother?"
----

The Cubs could've used a league average starter this year...
and last year...
and in 2004

If he's only throwing in the high 80's, I guess he might have a better chance of his arm not flying off.

league average starter who stays healthy is fine, bring back Maddux I say

Moore pinch-hit later in the game, fwiw.

Rob G.:
"Wuertz got a hold without getting an out? Great stat..."

Very intersting...

Doing some searching on the net, I found out that there are technically two different definitions of a "hold". Check out the article and Rob Neyer does a good job explaining (http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/1999/0908/46410.html). Basically here are the two different definitions:

- According to STATS Inc., "A Hold is credited any time a relief pitcher enters a game in a Save Situation, records at least one out, and leaves the game never having relinquished the lead.".

- According to SportsTicker, there are two changes to the above definition, 1) "a pitcher does not have to retire a batter to get a hold. All he has to do is leave with the save situation intact, whether he gets anyone out or not." & 2) "You know how a pitcher can get a save no matter what the score, as long as he pitches three or more innings? According to STATS, that save situation can lead to a hold opportunity as well, but SportsTicker doesn't credit holds in those big-lead situations."

I agree with Neyer, I like STATS Inc.'s version much better.

But I am not sure how you got credited for a HOLD in our fantasy league, unless they only use SportsTicker stats service, because even MLB basically uses STATS Inc definition: "A relief pitcher is credited with a hold any time he enters a game in a save situation, records at least one out and leaves the game never having relinquished the lead. A pitcher cannot finish the game and receive credit for a hold, nor can he earn a hold and a save in the same game."

I got that definition from:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_in...

Rob G.:
"Moore pinch-hit later in the game, fwiw."

Thanks, I left after the top of 8th I think. Len was wrong then, and Baker was wrong as at worst he should of PH Moore for Mabry. They did have a 4-2 lead and he knew the bottom of the lineup was coming up in the 9th, but still, get insurance while you can.

interesting, you should complain to the yahoo fantasy gods. :)

Does anyone want to wager the Bears will have won more games this week than the Cubs will?

I know I am putting my money on the Bears

Well, Shaun Alexander just broke his foot and is out indefinately, so it looks like the Bears will be 4-0...

Da Bears!!!!!!!!!!!

It wouldn't have mattered for the Cubs, but going into the season would anyone else have thought that a team could win the NL Central this year with less than 90 wins (the Cardinals can't win more than 88)? If the Phillies win the wild card, I guess the Cardinals (assuming they win) would get the Mets in the first round. As it stands now, I'd be very surprised if the Mets didn't win the pennant. The Mets are also the only NL team that would seem to match up against the Yankees, Twins, Tigers or A's.

It wouldn't have mattered for the Cubs, but going into the season would anyone else have thought that a team could win the NL Central this year with less than 90 wins (the Cardinals can't win more than 88)?

Actually yes, in the TCR pre-season roundtable, I said 85 wins could very easily be enough to win the NL Central.

And I pretty sure that's about the only thing in the TCR Roundtable I was right about...

Mets and Padres are the 2 best teams in the NL.

Pads got some nice pitching with the potential of 2 aces going in Young and Peavy (even in an off-year, he's got ace stuff). The Mets are just loaded offensively and of course they have Pedro.

Cards have to pray Carpenter wins both of his starts and they get enough offense the other days.

Phils have no pitching, Dodgers are okay, but they're starting a few too many middle infielders for my tastes. And Penny's looked pretty bad lately.

If Houston somehow overtakes the Cards, Clemens and Oswalt would certainly make things interesting.

I like the A's in the AL if Harden is back, I think the Tigers pitching has been fading for awhile and Verlander looks gassed. I'd pick the Twins if they still had Liriano. Yanks may pull of a 2002 Angel run and just pound teams into the ground. Any of those teams are better than any of the NL teams though.

But yeah for short series....

Right now it would be Mets vs Cards and Padres vs Phils
AL would be Detroit vs A's and Twins vs Yanks

AZ Phil, et al.....be very, very quiet....my Principles of Accounting II class is taking their first test of the semester.....hating my professorial ass cuz they know I'm skimming the net and blogging here..heh, heh...ahhh, the sweet taste of luxury.

Here's my question, then I'll go away and read.

2B is a quandary for TCR folk next year. I'm of the opinion that TheRIOT is the answer, and that Cedeno is more qualified for a supersub role.

Am I wrong??? You all have seen a lot more games since July than I.

Thanks,

Joey

I think the Cubs will need to keep Cedeno as a personal backup to Izturis. Not much of an insurance policy, but they'll need someone when Izzy hits the DL.

TheRiot at 2nd in 07'!!!!! Cedeno? He had his chance. The sad part is we have to live with Izturis at SS. And how about Blaylock to Cubs for a 3b? Or we can go after Wells. And Why isn't Moore playing more?

scooterÆ

When Izzy hits the DL, the replacement isn't called insurance, he's called an upgrade.

Cedeno is more qualified for a supersub role

I'm afraid that Cedeno is simply not able to compete at the MLB level. I'd much rather have a guy like Fontenot (if we go young) or Counsell (if we go veteran) backing up middle infield.

while i dunno if cedeno's workload of his 3rd year of winter ball in a row (maybe more, i only know of 2) might be extreme, he's definately got work to do.

i never expected anything out of his hitting, but if he's gonna be a contact hitter (which he's dead set on doing) he needs to get better hacks at the breaking stuff.

his arm seems settled, but his footwork at 2nd is pure ass...he needs to get someone more "mechanical" there to be of use to the cubs, though.

then there's the whole thing of if (huge 'if' at this point in time) theriot is being seriously considered as a 2nd base starting candidate for 07, cedeno would need to be there to provide some kinda backup. there's not much pure-bench 2nd base types out there next year that are gonna hit too much better than cedeno anyway (assuming some kind of learning curve).

"he needs to BE someone more "mechanical" there to be of use to the cubs, though."

...that should read.

HORATIO:

Fontenot is NOT young. He sucks and is a career minor leaguer.

Even in this shittiest of seasons, he couldn't crack the lineup!

That speaks volumes.

Looks like the Houston procrAstronators are trying to do it again. They beat Philly, San Diego beat the Cardinals, who look like they have more important things to do than play baseball next week. Houston is trying to top itself every year - how late really is the last possible minute? If they get in the NL gets five times more interesting.

Horatio: When Izzy hits the DL, the replacement isn't called insurance, he's called an upgrade.

I respectfully disagree, I'd take Izturis over Cedeno or Theriot at SS any day of the week.

On Miller, the Cubs could keep him to take the place of Rusch in the pen then buy out Rusch's contract. Then b****slap Hendry for signing Rusch to a 2-year contract in the first place.

I guess I'd take Izturis...but he'd better be cemented into the 8th spot in the order!

His 1 good year notwithstanding, he is brutal at the plate.

I'm not sure that Izturis' defense makes up for the 150 points in OPS that you give up by haivng him in the starting lineup.

I like the idea of letting Counsel and Theriot fight it out for 2B. Whichever one doesn't start can be the supersub for 2B/SS. Izturis will be the SS barring a minor miracle (involving ARod or Tejada). Cedeno is the odd man out. What does he really bring to the team? His hitting and fielding are below average. He's certainly not a starter and I wouldn't want to bring him in to PH or as a defensive replacement. Maybe another year at AAA will get him straightened out.

In 2004-2005, Rusch was a combined 15-10 with a 3.99 ERA. His 2005 was decidedly weaker, but he had shown a history of being very good in alternate years. He was left-handed, healthy, and had shown that he could both start and relieve (though much better as a starter, which was where we needed him as an insurance policy).

Did it turn out to be a bad deal? Did Hendry overpay? Absolutely, but there was some sound basis for taking the risk.

I guarantee that those same numbers will get a better contract in this winer's FA market than Rusch got from Hendry last winter.

All this talk anout Pierre leaving is making me scarred what are we going to do without his 330 OBP from the lead-off spot? I hope he goes to the Sox, I'm sure we can find something to do with his 8 mil bull shit.

Phil Nevin making some interesting comments in the Trib today:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball...

- "That team has been through more than anyone knows this year," Nevin said before the Twins-Royals game Monday night at the Metrodome. "Some of it has been publicized, some of it hasn't, as far as the stuff that has gone on in the personal lives of some people that has affected that [clubhouse]. This just wasn't the right year for it to be done in Chicago."

- "I had a great time [with the Cubs]," Nevin said. "It is just an unbelievable place to play; it was a great experience. And the people there ... Dusty [Baker] is one of my favorites up to this point, and [GM] Jim Hendry. They were all honest with me. Good people. I think they would be making a mistake if Dusty wasn't back [as manager]. Whether he is in Chicago or not, he is going to land on his feet somewhere. I'm going to be a free agent [at the end of] this year, and that might be one of the first calls that I make, wherever he is at. Without getting too far ahead of myself, I mean, I like playing for him and I know he's a winner. And I wouldn't mind playing for him again."

Guess we can cross him off that list of supposed people blasting Dusty and/or the clubhouse. And what is the thing that hasn't been publicized? Interesting...

did anyone else do a little dance last night when you found out the white sox were eliminated? my wife and i did.

Now if only the Reds could win the NL central...

Matt of America:
"did anyone else do a little dance last night when you found out the white sox were eliminated?"

No dancing, but there was a little smile that crept across my face. It is amazing that now 4 of the last 5 years the team that won the WS didn't even make the playoffs the next year. And unless the NYY wins the WS this year, it would be 7 straight years a different team has won the WS.

People can complain about the NYY or BOST spending lots of money and/or the Trib not spending enough, but those two stats show parity in MLB and that makes it even more embarassing that the Cubs have made the playoffs once once in that time frame.

Taking a flyer on Rusch might not have been a bad idea if it were only for a single year, but I don't think there is any justification whatsoever for giving him a multiyear deal.

I sure didn't do a dance. It's nice to have playoff baseball in Chicago. I'm going to miss it.

any enthusiasm a cub fan could have for the sox failure should be tempered by the fact that they are recent WS winners and a hell of a lot closer to getting back to the WS than the cubs are...sobering.

*Besides rory who ever said Phil Nevin was a clubhouse cancer? He seems like a great guy to me.
Said he would like to come back to the Cubs in 2007.

*Did you notice that Dusty Baker downgraded Ryan Dempster from "closer" to "dead horse" yesterday?
Is Hendry on suicide watch yet?

I like the idea of letting Counsel and Theriot fight it out for 2B. Whichever one doesn't start can be the supersub for 2B/SS.

Listened to the Dodgers/DBacks game over the weekend and the DBacks said they'd only bring Counsell back as a utility player and Counsell said he'd think about it but would rather try and land a starting gig. Not sure how many starting gigs will be out there for him next year and now that I actually look at his numbers, he shouldn't be doing anything but be a reserve.

since 2001:
275/359/362
282/328/304
234/328/304
241/330/315
256/350/375
257/326/341

that is not starting material....

I'd rather sign Durham or try and trade for Marcus Giles.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/deluca/72254,C...

Pierre talking about playing for Wsox, says Hendry has started preliminary talks but Pierre is determined to test the waters. Said Baker is the best manager he ever played for and it would be a huge factor in him resigning.

DALLAS GREEN:

"All this talk anout Pierre leaving is making me scarred..."

Well, for sure Pierre will be "scarred" after playing on this 90+ shit-ass team for a while.

Re the multiyear deal for Rusch: Among other considerations, I strongly suspect that Hendry was looking at Maddux' expiring contract and the likely need for a replacement starter in 2007 when he added the second year to Rusch's deal.

Seeing how we need 3 starting pitchers for 2007, that concern was valid. Too bad that Rusch won't be part of the solution, but Hendry didn't know that last winter.

HORATIO:

"I sure didn't do a dance. It's nice to have playoff baseball in Chicago. I'm going to miss it."

Now we see your real self. IMPOSTER!

One World Series for the Sox is plenty for me.

I was so damn sick of hearing about how great they were all season long. Enough!!

Anyone else but them!

Seamhead:
"Too bad that Rusch won't be part of the solution, but Hendry didn't know that last winter."

Yeah, I guess his career record of 57-86 and almost 4.88 ERA wasn't a good enough signal. Instead let the guy have one half way decent season in 2004 (after going 1-12 with a 6.42 ERA the year before) and we give him a 2 year deal...WOO!!!

I didn't like the signing then as I posted here: "I too don't like the signing. I am not a fan of Rusch. We already have two #5 starters. One making $9 million in Greg Maddux and one that is making the minimum in Jerome Williams." and I HATE even more now.

Juan Pierre (Chicago Sun-Times): ''It will weigh in,'' Pierre said of Baker's fate playing a role in his decision. ''There are a lot of question marks. Dusty will be a factor because he is the best manager I've ever played for. I respect him a lot.

Ryno: You have to figure Dusty won't be coming back, but I wonder how that figures in to guys like Aramis. I know Dusty is a player's manager and they all appear to like him; That's what they're supposed to do and say. Supposing that it's genuine, would Aramis be more inclined to return to Chicago if Dusty stayed?

If keeping Dusty means Pierre & possibly Ramirez will stay, then by all means, keep Dusty. Geesh.

If it means keeping Pierre, who cares. If it means keeping Ramirez, well you have to think about that one.

"If keeping Dusty means Pierre & possibly Ramirez will stay, then by all means, keep Dusty. Geesh."

If getting rid of Dusty means that we won't be able to over pay for Pierre than for all means fire Dusty.

Manny:

I am not defending the Rusch signing, and hated it at the time. However, in looking it from a dispassionate, analytical perspective, I can at least see the facts that Hendry had in front of him at the time that motivated the decision.

This offseason will force Hendry to take even greater risks than he took with Rusch, as the need to improve the team is far greater, his own assets are fewer, his competition has more assets, and the free agency pool is weaker.

Let's see how much Hendry has learned from his successes and failures with high-risk signings, because he will be doing a high-wire act this winter.

Losing Pierre will be unfortunate.

I know many of you Pierre haters (HORATIO - "Oh Boy! Let's start Theriot!") believe "your" money will be wasted, but as I've written here many times, the market for "people who can bat first" in the lineup ("There is no such thing as, 'Lead-off Man'" - HORATIO) is very small.

It is fact that 200 hits is productive. It is fact that 40+ stolen bases is valuable when no one else has done this for the Cubs in years. It is a fact that he has a consecutive game streak of several seasons, and he works hard.

I am aware of his shortcomings you Sabremetric devotees.

But he will be paid "market" rates by Jim Hendry or anyone of 7 or 8 teams. This is reality.

I was glad at the time of his signing, disappointed in his very slow start, but will be sad to see him leave knowing that what we CURRENTLY have in reserve is untested in the Majors over more than a couple months.

I would be truly surprised if Hendry signed Pierre, and the scrap heap left from which to choose is not as good.

Losing Ramirez would suck for sure, but if he leaves because of Dusty then so be it. Perhaps the silver lining is it allows us to fire away at the FA market with that much more vigor. Maybe I'm crazy, but I still think that Moore/Soriano would be a more productive tandem than Ramirez/Pierre. Of course, given my druthers I'd take Ramirez/Soriano.

What do you mean by high-risk?

I don't see the signing of Rusch and Neifi as high-risk, because even though both were over paid they still were not paid very much. Hendry seems to me to be very very risk adverse in that he likes to make many small bets instead of a few large ones. He also shies away from players that have large but risky upside and instead focuses on players that he believes have limited downside.

Murton could bat first. He'd have to learn how to hit with a lead-off bat, though.

If the choice was between Pierre and someone else currently on the Cubs, I would agree with you E-Man. If the Cubs can't add a better option in CF, then by all means they should sign him. But my hope is that Hendry is able to make a trade for Vernon Wells to play CF. I'm also hopeful that he can sign Soriano to lead off and play left. If that happens, I don't think we'll miss Pierre all that much.

no one talking yet about the bizarre nevin comments in the trib?

won't say more, here's the link

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sport...

also, yet another reason to fire dusty if it means pierre will get his 7 mill elsewhere. and that nevin won't come back.

Robr,

I think you are largely correct, but the comment about the limited downside is curious seeing as Neifi Perez has a seemingly UNlimited downside.

"But he will be paid "market" rates by Jim Hendry or anyone of 7 or 8 teams. This is reality."

That's the problem. Pierre is a nice player, but players of his type are often over valued in the market.

also, the cards are up only 3 games on the astros in the loss column, which doesn't sound so bad except that the cards can't win a game right now, and they have SEVEN games left to play. tonight and tomorrow against the padres, then brewers for four.

if necessary (aka if STL is up by a half or down by a half after sunday) they would play a make up game on monday vs. the giants at STL.

the astros play at pittsburgh for three, at atlanta for three. much nicer than pads and brewers.

then, if they're tied after the cards game monday, the cards would have to play a playoff game IN HOUSTON for the central title on tuesday

the winner would start the first round series on Wednesday, and if it's st louis, they'll be exhausted.

carpenter pitches tonight and so will pitch saturday or sunday i guess. wow.

what a collapse it would be by the cards. not that i'm an astros supporter, but it would be pretty awesome to see larussa's mullet sitting out after leading all year.

also, the cubs and white sox have the same record since the all star break. i think the cards are only a couple games better. blech.

Great Dusty quote on Dempster on cubs.com:

"You don't want to beat a dead horse to death."

Doesn't make him a good or bad manager, and I certainly wouldn't want someone quoting everything I say, but it's still a pretty good laugh.

actually Pierre's 200 hits were about as invaluable as they could come. It's just a blip on the radar, but he was horrible with people on base this year. Most of those hits came with no one on and in those situations a hit or a walk pretty much mean the same, especially for a power deprived Pierre. Considering his OBP still stinks despite all those hits and I think he's at best average in CF, I'd rather try and do better.

If I'm Hendry, I offer him what I think is fair (about 3/18), watch him turn it down, offer arbitration (and hope draft pick compensation doesn't go away until 2008 draft) and move on. Lofton or Roberts would be cheaper options that do the same thing, actually they're both probably a bit better and we wouldn't be tied up long-term to them. Preferably I look to get a CF with some power and an arm, (Soriano or Wells or Hunter)

also, the cubs and white sox have the same record since the all star break. i think the cards are only a couple games better. blech.

pretty close...

Since ASB:
Cubs: 29-40
WSox: 30-39
Cards: 32-36

a couple weeks back, the Cubs and Tigers had the worst records in baseball since the ASB but the Tigers have picked it up of late

Let the Carl Crawford sweepstakes begin!
(all of this stuff is off Fox Sports Rumors section)

Tampa intends to dangle Carl Crawford in attempts to land a pitcher with top-of-the-rotation abilities. Rays officials have come to believe the only way to rise to consistent challengers in an AL East that houses the Yankees and Red Sox is to form a dynamic rotation

And the bad...

The Mets could use a left fielder, Minaya's dream is to fill his everyday lineup with great athletes and, as one club official said in citing Minaya's credo to pursue the best players on the market, "if he is available, you have to be interested." ... The Angels have previously considered dealing Ervin Santana for Crawford. The Rockies and Dodgers have been interested, and the Astros would love to bring home a Houston native.

Lot of competition for him. Rich Hill and maybe Mateo or Guzman? Maybe even Prior? Cubs should be all over this one. He is about the only player where I wouldn't care what happened to Murton. Though I would hope that he would play CFer and be our replacement for Pierre and let Murton play LF.

Jason Schmidt is going to be a tough guy to sign because of this....

Arizona, where Schmidt lives, and Seattle, close to where he grew up, are expected to be leading suitors for his services.

I am going to say it now, Schmidt is going to Arizona. They want pitching, and players who make their off-season home in Arizona always seriously consider D'backs offers when that team is interested in them. The climate, golf, many players make their off-season home their, is the #1 recruiting tool for that organization.

And the other blurb floating around is the WhiteSox want to pursue Miguel Tejada.

Vernon Wells situation is much more murky. Payroll is going up again in Toronto and Wells would like to remain on that team. Just a matter if the organization see's Wells in their future plans or not.

Another aspect to take a look at is how Pierre has turned things around after maybe getting use to the day games. It took Lee and Alou a full year to get used to it, so maybe the 2nd half numbers are more like what we will see next year. Of course that is being very optimisitic and hopeful, but I for one am a beleiver of the day schedule getting use to thing.

Sweet Lou:
"But my hope is that Hendry is able to make a trade for Vernon Wells to play CF."

In teh Trib today there was a blurb where Vernon Wells said he doesn't think he has played his last game in Toronto. So he kinds thinks he is coming back. i really hope that issue is decided ASAP as it would be nice to know if that pipe dream is even a tad realistic. But I think hendry wants to resign Pierre.

Green Lantern:
"no one talking yet about the bizarre nevin comments in the trib?"

I was in post #47, I guess nobody else thought they were interesting.

sorry, hadn't seen it manny, just scrolled through quickly expecting a bevy of talk. when even TCR is suffering from clubhouse-talk fatigue, you know it's been a brutal year.

i'll take crawford...what's it gonna take? more than pie and hill? then no way. take a one year flyer on lofton or roberts as RobG mentions above, then see if pie is ready or move on...

Let some other team feed their leadoff man jones with Pierre. I'd rather Hendry rid himself of that fetish. FWIW, I suspect the Cubs are trying to mold Pie into their ideal of a leadoff man (the fact that he has not made "progress" toward that end may well be why they didn't give him a September callup this year) and I am concerned that doing so is going to hurt him.

Again, except for the odd Jerry Hairston, the perspective of most players about Dusty is 180 degrees different from the fans. I soured on Dusty on the way he kept running Perez and Patterson out their in May and June of 2005, thus setting up Derek Lee for bases empty and two outs repeatedly. But the players appreciated his loyalty.

Jim Leyland, who is a great manager, seems to have the same blind spot for Nefi, as he has my Detroit Tiger fans pulling their hair out.

Dusty probably has to be fired. His faults are so much more vivid then his virtues right now to us fans. We are all bitter about the bait and switch the Cubs managment has pulled on us, and Dusty is the most visible feature of that management. But Dusty is not primarily responsible for building a starting rotation on three pitchers (Wood, Prior and Miller) with chronic injury histories, he is not responsible for choosing as the team's closer a pitcher who has a history of command problems (Dempster), he is not responsible for a farm system barren of quality position prospects, he is not responsible for not planning for the end of the Sammy Sosa era by acquiring a player of similar quality (Vlad Guerrero or Miguel Tejeda come to mind), and for organizationally favoring contact hitting over OBP and slugging (might as well have Joe Morgan as the GM) And once Dusty is gone, the management that has made all thos mistakes (but is so good a marketing) will still be in place.

Finally, on Pierre, he does have some value, his speed, including the threat of the SB, probably helps the team more than his CS hurt it. But frankly, if his BA falls, what we will get is the Pierre of May and early June as he has no otherway (OBP or slugging) to help the team. And to give him a big 3 year contract as he is approaching 30 years of age is asking for trouble. I don't tnink with all the holes this team has that the Cubs will contend next season anyway. It should not handicap itself with big contracts to players who are essentially role players.

"Pierre is a nice player, but players of his type are often over valued in the market..."

Well, the "market" establishes what is "over-valued" in your or my subjective opinion.

This off season many of you were bitching about JJones being signed to a 3 year deal. How overpaid, too many years.

The FACTS now, as I've stated before are that J. Encarnacion, who has nearly identical stats as JJ this year across the board, got THE SAME deal - THREE years and a pile 'o money. I read many complaints about his streaky hitting on Cards blogs, too.

The "market" establishes itself whether we think its overvalued or not.

DCF,

I couldn't agree more. Personally, other than "be a better hitter," which is obviously absurd advice to give anyone, I'm not what advice you'd give to someone you're trying to mold anyone into a "lead-off man."

that's right E-Man....but if you think it's overvalued you don't have to pay it.

you could do what I said back almost a year ago and signed lofton for less than half of pierre's salary and without giving up 3 pitching prospects. he had better OBP and SL this year, had less stolen bases but almost never got caught (i think he's 26/31 this year...wow) pierre is overpriced bc there are cheaper ways to get production, as pierre's production doesn't really produce that many runs.

if the cubs were to get one big ticket guy (lee, soriano, wells, ?) this offseason, you can let the other stuff go to crap. example:

soriano (CF) (yes, i don't care)
murton
lee
ramirez
barrett
jones
izturis/cedeno/theriot
izturis/cedeno/theriot

i'm fine with that lineup, if one of the middle infield positions in particular is total suckitude you make a trade to upgrade during the season.

this is the opposite of what hendry has done the last few years, in overpaying for more or less mediocre players (neifi, rusch, izturis, jones is better than those but got a bunch of money so he qualifies).

if you get another stud and let the other stuff settle, then you can always upgrade the really bad stuff (cedeno/izturis) via trade if you're in it in june.

the cubs haven't been willing to pay for one top ticket free agent, and seeing how weak the NL is, and the central in particular, one top hitter plus another inning eater could get you there. just don't spend your cash on the neifis and mabrys of the world (it adds up) and you can afford to get the sorianos instead of jacque joneses once in a while.

Mannytrillo - Post #59:

I didn't like the signing then as I posted here: "I too don't like the signing. I am not a fan of Rusch. We already have two #5 starters. One making $9 million in Greg Maddux and one that is making the minimum in Jerome Williams." and I HATE even more now.

"The "market" establishes itself whether we think its overvalued or not."

This is true, but of course baseball is an inefficient market. In an inefficient market some assets will be over valued, while some will be under valued. One of the goals in such a market is to avoid those assets that are over valued while focusing your resources on those assets that are under valued. The key to being able to do this is to have a better understanding of the true values of the assets in the market.

ditto, exactly right RobR.

CubFanGermany:
"But Dusty is not primarily responsible for building a starting rotation on three pitchers (Wood, Prior and Miller) with chronic injury histories, he is not responsible for choosing as the team's closer a pitcher who has a history of command problems (Dempster), he is not responsible for a farm system barren of quality position prospects, he is not responsible for not planning for the end of the Sammy Sosa era by acquiring a player of similar quality (Vlad Guerrero or Miguel Tejeda come to mind), and for organizationally favoring contact hitting over OBP and slugging (might as well have Joe Morgan as the GM) And once Dusty is gone, the management that has made all thos mistakes (but is so good a marketing) will still be in place."

I couldn't agree more with this portion of your post.

LANTERN: "the cubs haven't been willing to pay for one top ticket free agent..."

This is the problem that will continue.

I have zero faith, based on 2004, 2005, 2006, that dollars spent anywhere - no matter the amount - will be well spent.

The Hendry magic is gone - has been - and SHOULD $90MM or $100MM get spent wisely this upcoming 2007, I will be surprised.

dusty is damn well responsible for choosing the team's closer.

if he wants bynum to close and novoa to start with d.lee doing middle relief...it'll probally get him fired, but its his call.

unless you're a tool like macha or girardi the GM does not tell you what to do with your tools, they just provide them for use. conference, suggestions, guidance...'giving a guy a break' based on the contract the GM gave a guy...yeah that happens, but its the manager running the show as far as when/where. the GM provides the 'who'.

Sean Marshall was not expected to make the team last winter, which meant that Rusch was our only lefty starter. That's a big part of why he got the contract.

This righty-lefty thing doesn't mean much in fantasy baseball, but good teams (see Yankees, Cardinals) always want to have a lefty in the starting rotation.

Rusch was a poor specimen of a lefty starter but he was the best we had in 2005. Our luck seems to be improving, though.

20/20 hindsight much?

Prior wasn't really viewed as such a chronic health concern until this year (unless you consider collisions with Giles or liners of the elbow chronic). The rotation was never built off Miller; he was a gamble to build on a rotation of Zambrano, Prior, Wood, Maddux, and Williams/Rusch. Sosa was still in the long term plans when most of those big free agents came available. And Dempster had a pretty good showing as a closer in 05.

Rusch had decent numbers the previous 2 seasons as a starter. It wasn't out of the realm of possibility that he'd be serviceable this year.

BUT...

He already had a player option for 2006 and there was just no good reason whatsoever to hand him a 2 yr deal as an insurance policy. I can only assume Hendry got word that Rusch was being offered a deal somewhere else and wanted to keep him here and felt a 2 yr deal was the way to do it. Bleh. Should have let Rusch decide on whether he wanted to exercise his option or just let hm leave. A million Rusch's on the open market.

Corey Patterson... how did he end up doing??

2006: 475PA, .275/.313, 15HR, 39XBH, 44SB, 92K
2004: 676PA, .266/.320, 24HR, 66XBH, 32SB, 168K
2006 prorated to 676PA: 21HR, 55XBH, 63SB, 131K

Juan Pierre:
2006: 706PA, .291/.330, 3HR, 48XBH, 56SB, 38K

I still think Patterson had to go, but he seems to have rebounded a little bit after that disaster of 2005. But he's far more suited to being a #8-9 type hitter on an AL roster than either a #1 or a #6 hitter for the Cubs. Baltimore has him hitting 7th, but on a better team he'd be 8th/9th.

Dusty is not primarily responsible for building a starting rotation on three pitchers (Wood, Prior and Miller) with chronic injury histories,

Yes, it was foolish to count on Wood.
However, its also just not accurate to say the pitching rotation was built around Wade Miller. Miller was expected to miss a couple months, and eventually compete with Rusch and Williams for the 5th spot in the rotation.

Prior is pure 20/20 hindsight. While I don't know where you stood on the issue CFIG, I find it absolutely comical that people (like Manny who "couldn't agree more" with your position) spent the offseason saying that Prior should be untouchable and complaining because Hendry was rumored to be considering trading Prior for Tejada, and now want to blame Hendry for relying on this "untouchable" pitcher.

he is not responsible for choosing as the team's closer a pitcher who has a history of command problems (Dempster),

I have never been a big fan of the Dempster contract, but Dusty is hardly blameless here. Afterall, there are a number of other options that he could use, from Vets like Howry and Eyre, to young options like Wurtz or Aardvark.

he is not responsible for not planning for the end of the Sammy Sosa era by acquiring a player of similar quality (Vlad Guerrero or Miguel Tejeda come to mind),

DLee isn't of similar quality? ARam isn't in the same ballpark? They weren't free agent signings, and they did join the team before Sosa's eventual departure, but they were aquired around the same time Tejada and Vlad were on the market and they very much provide the superstar offensive force that Sosa alone provided during most of the past decade.

This arm-chair-Hendry-bashing is a joke.

386-419 since 2002
142-177 since 2005
under .500 since the start of 2003

Except for the words "this", "armchair", and "bashing", I agree with everything you wrote.

Horatio: Losing Ramirez would suck for sure, but if he leaves because of Dusty then so be it.

The reason why we hate Dusty and the players love him is because he does ride guys for screwing up. They are professionals, they know their job. Also why Dusty and rookies don't mix; Sometimes they need to be told what their job is.

mannytrillo: I was in post #47, I guess nobody else thought they were interesting.

I saw it manny, but didn't comment. What a f-ed up year. Period. Makes you wonder what was going on.

Dying Cub Fan: Let some other team feed their leadoff man jones with Pierre.

Pierre is one of the best leadoff guys in baseball. Spare me the stats, I hope he comes back next year. It sound like he doesn't really want to, though.

Ryno: ...because he does ride guys...

Should say "doesn't"

"Fontenot is NOT young. He sucks and is a career minor leaguer.

Even in this shittiest of seasons, he couldn't crack the lineup!

That speaks volumes."
--

I guess Fontenot's lengthy stint in MLB proves that he's a career minor leaguer.
Him not getting a shot this year says much more about management than it does about Fontenot. Being that the Cubs are last in team OBP, it's obvious that they'd have no use for a player like Fontenot.

Bleeding Blue:
"I find it absolutely comical that people (like Manny who "couldn't agree more" with your position) spent the offseason saying that Prior should be untouchable and complaining because Hendry was rumored to be considering trading Prior for Tejada,"

I find it comincal when people keep misquoting me. I never said Prior should be untouchable.

#67 of 101: By Horatio (September 26, 2006 01:35 PM)
Murton could bat first. He'd have to learn how to hit with a lead-off bat, though.
----

May I just say, Horie baby, that this one is absolutely the big email of the day, and it went laregly unoticed.

Pierre is one of the best leadoff guys in baseball. Spare me the stats, I hope he comes back next year. It sound like he doesn't really want to, though.

If one's inclined not to cast aside the actual results of the 2006 season, one can make an easy case for Pierre performing worse than Soriano, Sizemore, Matthews Jr., Jose Reyes, Damon, Jose Bautista, Furcal, Rollins, Hanley Ramirez, Youkilis, Byrnes, Granderson, Reed Johnson, and both Brian and Dave Roberts. The 15 guys that played better than him excepted, Pierre truly is an elite leadoff hitter.

I should add, in the interest of fairness, that Pierre did smoke Nate McClouth, Craig Counsell, Chone Figgins, and Willy Taveras.

*if the cubs were to get one big ticket guy (lee, soriano, wells, ?) this offseason, you can let the other stuff go to crap.*

Yeah, that worked so well during the Sammy Sosa era. I still treasure the memories of those World Series they won.

Well, I am off to my last Cubs game of the year. I can't wait to see how depressing it is going to be down there at Wrigley. I will give a recap when I get back.

"I will give a recap when I get back."

Spare us.

THIS JUST IN,

JOE GIRARDI TOLD THE PALM BEACH POST TODAY THAT (1) HE WON'T QUIT (three yr contract) BECAUSE HE "CAME HERE TO DO A JOB" and (2) HE DOESN'T WANT TO MANAGE THE CUBS

http://tinyurl.com/f8geq

BIG STUD:

"I guess Fontenot's lengthy stint in MLB proves that he's a career minor leaguer."

Do you mean Mike Fontenot's SEVEN games and TWO total AB's in the Majors by age 26?

Or - did you mean his stints at Ottawa, Des Moines, etc.

No - it is not only management STUD - he must just not be lighting the world on fire enough to warrant him to be brought up.

As I said - HE'S A CAREER Minor Leaguer so far and his hourglass is running dry.

I find it comincal when people keep misquoting me. I never said Prior should be untouchable.

Give me a break! I know one of your first rules when you can't argue the facts is to bitch about being misquoted because they don't quote you verbaitum, but you're just being silly now.

First of all, if a Prior (who you now say Hendry was foolish for counting on) shouldn't be traded for a perenially hall of fame/possible Future Hall of Fame shortstop, then what on earth would you trade him for?

Since there isn't going to be a realistic offer that even possibly tops that, you've essentially labeled him untouchable.

Secondly, Remember not only did you bitch that Hendry shouldn't trade Prior for Tejada, but you also bitched that Hendry allowed a rumor to exist! On more than one occation, You blamed Hendry because the media discussed trade rumors because -according to you- the existance of any Trade Rumor might make Prior want to leave and would be more difficult to resign at the end of his contract. (although, since you now say that Hendry was foolish for relying on Prior to be a part of the rotation in the first place, I'm not sure why that would matter.) So since Hendry shouldn't have even allowed trade rumors to exist, and you didn't think a trade for one of the best shortstops in the game was a fair deal, I think its very safe to say you considered Prior "untouchable," even if you never used that exact word.

Sorry Manny, you're not being misquoted. You're just a hypocrite who is pissing and moaning because he has been caught contradicting himself in order to push his agenda.

RON GALT:

"Granderson..."??!!

Are you fucking nuts?!

He's struck out 168 times!! 168, man!! To Pierre's 38! More RBI's, but lower average. About the same OBP. 8 stolen bases.

This is his first full season of over 400 AB's (of three) compared to JP's body of work over a much longer period of well-respected numbers.

Gimme a fucking break.

I LIKE Curtis G - I really do - I believe he'll be a really nice player down the road - and he's a good one now - but how you put him "ahead" in your argument perplexes me.

I and MOST Cubs would love to have him (Prior) here over any other player in MLB.

Posted by: mannytrillo at December 31, 2005 12:18 PM

MannyTrillo logic: He wants to have Mark Prior over ANY OTHER PLAYER in MLB, but he never said he was untouchable!

Unbelievable!

On XM's Home Plate this morning they were talking about the Twins. They said at one point there was a turining point-Gardenhire called GM Terry Ryan and said "we need to make some changes". Basically he told Ryan they weren't athletic enough. They decided to dump Tony Batista at third and go with unproven Nick Punto. The dumped Juan Castro at short and went with Bartlett. They told Cuddyear he was going to play right and hit cleanup and they brought up Liriano. They decided to use their own resources and try some different things. In the meantime, Shannon Stewart AND Tori Hunter went down with injuries and they brought up Jason Tyner. None of these guys were super prospects mind you.

This team solved its own problems. They had a plan, it didn't work and they weren't afraid to take some chances. They put people in a position to succeed and those players exceeded the expectations. Their organization has attitude. I so wish we had that...

Last but not least, Tori Hunter has 15 home runs in his last 36 games. He has 94 rbi's...

I'm with Rob-don't overpay for Pierre.

I LIKE Curtis G - I really do - I believe he'll be a really nice player down the road - and he's a good one now - but how you put him "ahead" in your argument perplexes me

I think it's the 17 homers, 66 RBI's and 50 some points of OPS that help his case. 4.11 pitches per plate appearance compared to Juan's 3.50 are pretty important too if you're a believer in the leadoff man.

Re: 98, 103, 110

Ichiro is also a better leadoff hitter than Pierre.

I would trade Pierre evenup for Granderson in a heartbeat right now. I would do so even if they were the same age.


He's struck out 168 times!! 168, man!! To Pierre's 38! More RBI's, but lower average. About the same OBP. 8 stolen bases.

Granderson has been better than Pierre, and it's really not that close.

Granderson - .264/.340/.436 - .261 EqA, 7.9 WARP3
Pierre - .291/.330/.390 - .251 EqA, 4.8 WARP3

#97 of 115: By Ron Galt (September 26, 2006 04:22 PM)

This arm-chair-Hendry-bashing is a joke.

386-419 since 2002
142-177 since 2005
under .500 since the start of 2003

Except for the words "this", "armchair", and "bashing", I agree with everything you wrote.
---

Hey Ron Galt, were you purposely trying to take my post out of context or are you just that dense?

I have no problem with questioning some of Hendry's moves. No doubt they have not resulted in a winning organization over the past few seasons.

However, it's totally different to selectively pick on Hendry when he is wrong, and have sudden amnesia about your stance on what Hendry should have done when he was correct.

It's just funny to watch some people on this board have an opinion about EVERYTHING Hendry does but ONLY reference back to that opinion to make themselves look smart when they were right and Hendry was wrong.

Marcus Giles is also a better leadoff hitter than Pierre.

I might take Pierre over Eckstein, Jamey Carroll and Ryan Freel, but it would be close. He is also better than the 40-year old Craig Biggio, at least this year; Biggio could well come back next year.

"No - it is not only management STUD - he must just not be lighting the world on fire enough to warrant him to be brought up."
-

Neither was Theriot, but look how he's taken advantage of his callup.

Bynum, Neifi, and Cedeno certainly aren't lighting the world on fire...
It would be safe to bet on Fontenot performing better than any of those three. Management made the decision to stick with mediocrity rather than bring Fontenot in for an extended look.
They probably just don't consider him "toolsy" enough.

If anyone is still confused about the point of the book Moneyball, read comment #87. Great post.

Joey,

Thanks man. Yeah, no one ever gets my jokes.

E-Man,

What about Fontenot has so thoroughly convinced you that he is a career minor leaguer? Was it his OBP of .600 in 7 games? Yes, clearly he was overmatched.

Pierre is one of the best leadoff guys in baseball. Spare me the stats

Ryno,

I'm not going to castigate you for being insufficiently stat-oriented. I agree that one can get carried away with them. But seriously, man, where do you come off making this claim? This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy. By what metric is he "one of the best?" The point of hitters is to score runs and drive in runs. Pierre does neither of these.

Please don't say he does intangible things because scoring runs is the only thing that matters and it is an extremely tangible thing. Either you touch the plate or you don't. Either you make it more likely that you or your teammates will touch the plate or you don't. If you do, you're a good hitter. If you don't, you're a bad hitter. Period. You can't be non-productive AND be "one of the best." It's impossible.

The announcers for the Brewers were going on and on tonight about what a great leadoff hitter Pierre is. They made a big deal out of how there will be huge demand for Pierre in the off season and how Pierre is really going to cash in.

There were two things about what they said that kind of surprised me. First, since Pierre came into the big leagues, only Ichiro has had more hits than him. I know a lot has been said about Pierre getting a lot of meaningless hits, but that is still pretty impressive.

Second, they indicated that Pierre has almost demanded that Dusty come back as manager in order for him to re-sign with the Cubs. I've read Pierre's quotes, but I didn't get the impression that he was making demands, just that he liked playing for Dusty. Personally, I like Pierre and his work ethic, but I think the Cubs can do better next year.

I admire Pierre for what he's done with his talents to be a big league player, I really do.

But what is it that he does well? I checked his page at baseball-reference.com, and that shows that (i) he hits a lot of singles (going into this year he'd led the league three times and finished second twice) and gets a lot of hits, (ii) he steals a lot of bases (he's led the league twice and finished second three times) and (iii) he gets a lot of at bats and he makes a lot of outs. To be fair, he also is good at bunting, for sacrifices and hits.

What does all that get you? He has never finished in the top ten in the league in runs scored. Despite not walking very much, Ichiro manages to do this all the time. Currently, JP is tied for 36th in the NL in runs scored this year. He has no power. He hardly ever walks.

What does he do that makes him a good leadoff man? I and others in this thread have asserted that 15-20 batters are better leadoff men than Pierre. What are we missing?

HORATIO:

What about Fontenot has so thoroughly convinced you that he is a career minor leaguer? Was it his OBP of .600 in 7 games? Yes, clearly he was overmatched.

Yeah, that, and he has come up to bat TWICE. His entire MLB career.

What has convinced you that he is worth more than a bag of balls?

His stint in Ottawa Ontario?

HA!

Maybe he is but you are again so adapt at using the small sampling stats to give your points merit. If he had only batted once, and drew a walk - his entire career - you'd fucking say he has an OBP of 1.000.

Doesn't wash. He would have been called up before - as I SAID - especially during this near-100 loss year.

If he's unable to crack the lineup this year, there must be something.

E-Man,

Dude.

2 at-bats doesn't mean he's only been to the plate twice. He's actually had 5 plate appearances. He made two outs, walked twice and got hit by a pitch.

Plus, he's got a 825 OPS at Iowa this year. That'd look pretty nice at 2B in Wrigley if you ask me.

My lineup for 2007:

Theriot SS
Murton LF
Barrett C
Lee 1B
Ramirez 3B
Vernon Wells CF
Soriano RF
Fontenot 2B
P

HORATIO:

I have pasted the quote before, but basically to paraphrase, your mentor and guru, Bill James clearly states that while there is some evidence to suggest that when a player succeeds at the minor league he will also succeed at the MLB level - it is not by any means a slam dunk - NOR is there anyway to ascertain who will and who will not succeed. Basically, it is still a bit of a crap shoot. More so with pitchers, but with everyday players as well.

so, again, if he is smokin' Iowa, and he HAS NOT BEEN CALLED UP at age 26 for more than a "handful" of ab's, there's gotta be a reason.

Unless they're "saving him" for trade bait, or to "build his confidence". Yeah - right!

We'll see in the months to come.

If you could guarantee me that the team will get a better leadoff position player better than Pierre, I'd be all for it.

Theriot is not the answer, dude.

If you were to add Vernon Wells and Alfonso Soriano to the Cubs, why would you want to bat them 6th and 7th respectively? Especially considering that Soriano is one of the better lead off hitters in the league.

FONTENOT

He ALREADY has NO in his name. AND "NOT"

No to FONTENOT.

How much clearer can it be made!

Re: Soriano's spot in the order. I'd want his power down in the lineup and a speed guy at 7 is pretty sweet, cause while the bottom of the order isn't likely to produce many rallies, the odd single from a pitcher could score a guy that just stole second.

At the end of the day, someone has to bat 7th, so between Barrett, Wells, Ramirez, Soriano, and Lee, you're left to make your choice. I love the Theriot/Murton daily double and didn't want to mess with that, so 3-7 were all I had left to work with. Fontenot bats 8th cause that's the only spot left.

This lineup would score beaucoup runs.

"Plus, he's got a 825 OPS at Iowa this year. That'd look pretty nice at 2B in Wrigley if you ask me."

if you have no idea how he swings, what he swings at, how he gets his hits, and how he gets his outs you do no have the tools to evaluate fotenot.

much like you somehow thing moore can play 3rd based on HIS BAT...

you have NO idea about these players aside from some numbers you choose to give creedence to. if you're gonna make proclaimations and actually try to back them up it helps to know a bit about these guys.

fontenot's main problem is he's a fastball hitter who cant play anything but 2nd (and isnt a very fluid 2nd baseman)...he's a linedrive/gap hitter.

his main problem isnt his walks or his linedrive hitting, its he can pretty much only play 2nd and that's not even solid.

judging him by his ob%/ops is not only unfair, its short-sighted cuz baseball isnt a game of DHs.

Well if he's only a 2B, how's about we give him a shot at 2B and see how he does? You act like I'm the only one who makes determinations sight unseen. After all, I'm the one who wants to see how he'd do over a full season in the show. Maybe he'll suck. Maybe he'll be great. You seem to be convinced, SIGHT UNSEEN, that he is not even worth a chance. For my part, I think it's pretty impressive for a guy to walk in his first TWO major league PAs. Kind of indicates a sort of maturity at the plate, don't you think? Why does he never get a shot? Well that couldn't possibly be related to the fact that the Cubs haven't developed a quality position player in the last 20 years and have just wonderful judgment about these sort of things.

"Well if he's only a 2B, how's about we give him a shot at 2B and see how he does?"

umm...he's played a lot of it...in the minors...its how people know how he plays and why i know what i know. there's more detailed info out there on it, too, if you want specifics.

"You act like I'm the only one who makes determinations sight unseen."

no, i act like your devotion to it with importance on numbers insted of what's behind the numbers is shortsighted. you seem to have no interest in this info even though its a profile of the player(s) you wanna talk about.

if you dont understand why fontenot isnt here already all you have to do is look beyond the numbers.

"You seem to be convinced, SIGHT UNSEEN, that he is not even worth a chance."

not only have i seen him, ive talked to many who have seen him a lot more than me.

"I think it's pretty impressive for a guy to walk in his first TWO major league PAs. Kind of indicates a sort of maturity at the plate, don't you think?"

no.

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