TCR Friday Notes

Back by popular demand (okay it was like two people in the comments), it's TCR Friday Notes. I have to admit that I'm a bit burned out by the last few days, so excuse me for this being brief and/or repetitive from stuff in the comments. - It looks like the O's are interested in Jacque Jones and they'll kindly take them him off our hands for hidden gem David Newhan. Oh what's that you say, Newhan isn't very good? Well you'd be right. Hopefully that one is just a cruel joke. - Speaking of the O's, it's reported they offered 3/48 for Jason Schmidt, but it wasn't enough to get him to the East Coast. A St. Louis Dispatch blurb said the Cardinals offered 3/39 and were probably willing to go to 3/42. - Some speculation that the Braves will just non-tender Marcus Giles as they're in a bit of a budget crunch and trade interest has been lukewarm on him so far. Some team will end up being very happy that lands him. - St. Louis Dispatch joins the growing chorus that Jason Marquis will be a Cub soon. Larry Rothschild has even gone to see his workouts and there have been several talks with his agent. Anyone else completely underwhelmed, raise your hands? - We also have talk about the Cubs pursuing Jeff Suppan and if it's a decision between signing Suppan and Marquis, well, wait that's not a decision at all. Go get Suppan! - The same Sun-Times article says the Cubs have been talking to the Nationals about Ryan Church and Sean Marshall's name has come up. It's said that Carlos Marmol interests the Nationals more though. If true, and that's certainly a big if, why isn' this deal done? That seems like such a no-brainer to me and giving up Marmol instead of Marshall seems like a far better move for us. - The same article once again quotes Gary Hughes saying that "Cliff Floyd will probably never be off our radar." - Some humor to get you going for the weekend, an old top 10 list from Letterman on why the Cubs haven't won a World Series since 1908. Enjoy the weekend!!!
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Comments

Does Lilly have a nickname yet?
Here's an idea: Bull Moose.
Can you figure out why?

Because him and Teddy Roosevelt share a first name..and a figure?

Rob, as a frequent reader (infrequent poster) I just gotta say (to echo others) what a great job this week. I really enjoyed the updates and comments. Great site and keep it coming.

"another yellow fever victim!!"

While everyone is ringing their hands about either Suppan or Marquis consider what 2007 is mounting up to-

-No McFail
-No Dusty
-No Neifi
-No rotation hope of Wood, Prior, then Z , then Rusch

-Hello unrestrained Hendry and McDonough
-Hello Loupa
-Hello Soriano
-Hello Z,Lilly, Hill,fill in ex-Cardinal pitcher, MillerPrior creature

Cardinals nothing added to their monster 83 win season team.
Astros' Dh Mo Vaughan waiting to happen Carlos Lee in Houston, minus Clemens and Petite.

Goodbye Doug Davis, hello same Reds, Pittsburgh step aside.

Folks, smile!!

Christmas came early and often for us this year.

Now lets win this damn thing!!!

I'm sick over the Marquis rumors. Teams with the two best pitching coaches in baseball soured on him. How many people out there fell good about Rothchild turning him around? I know we need another starting pitcher, but I'd pass on him. Also, despite the poor start and atrocious baserunning, Jones did a decent job last year. I'm not against trading him, I'm against giving him away.

Aside from the Dodgers(Schmidt/Wolf/Pierre) you can make a pretty good argument that no other NL clubs improved themselves this off-season. Maybe the Mets if they sign Zito(but he'll essentially just be replacing Pedro) so that's probably a wash. However, I wouldn't rule out Pettitte and Clemens coming back to HOU though...and if they are both back then HOU has improved.

from our friends at Oleanders and Morning Glories:

Right now the Nats and Church remind me of a guy who bought a PS3 a month ago to sell it but refuses to believe that he canít get $3,000 for it. The owner of the merchandise has something he specifically wants to deal, but wonít believe what the market is telling him that itís worth. In the end he will likely say ìScrew you guys if you arenít going to pay what it should be worthî and keep the thing even though he desperately needs the return on the trade (cash or pitching depending). Over the next year heíll play it sporadically, but mostly view it with disdain, as if itís the objects fault the dealer never appreciated itís worth or made a deal for it.

I have to think we have the pieces to get Vernon Wells...

Jones, one of our relievers (Dempster, Howry, Eyre, Wuertz, Novoa, Ohman), and either Marshall, Marmol or Guzman for Wells and a farm hand....

Toronto is trying to contend now- this gives them a decent option in the corner outfield, a reliever and a starting pitcher with a high ceiling.

Of course this trade makes us right handed as hell without Floyd, but still...

Soriano
DeRosa
Lee
Ramirez
Wells
Barrett
Murton/Lee
Izuturis

What a friggin lineup....

Correction:

Murton/Floyd/Ward

Dusty-
indeed! not only a first name, but lillys middle name is roosevelt. why hasn't anyone thought of this before?

"Now lets win this damn thing!!!"

I love the optimistic air but exactly are we going to do that with this staff? At this point in time, the Cubs haven't improved the pitching rotation at all.

Remember, Hendry dealt Maddux, the forgotten man, and his 200 IP's away. That left us with Z as our only legit staff member and a parade of minor league debutantes.

Maybe, perhaps, if he has a good year, Lilly will manage to replace Greg Maddux but Jason Marquis, if acquired, will do a great job of replacing only Glendon Rusch.

It looks to me that our hopes for winning lie once again with a return to form by Prior, the continued success of Hill, and Hendry finally cashing in on one of his sidebets like Miller, Cotts, or maybe someone homegrown like Ryan O'Malley will make the staff in ST and stick. In other words, nothing much has changed. Hope and pray.

I'm not much for making up trade offers, but doesn't Jon Lieber for Jacque Jones make sense? Other than we'd probably be sending Jacque to his death in Philly and I don't know if Philly is on his no-trade list.

Philly would like Jacque because he hustles. Cubs fans piled on mercilessly even though JJ generally busted his ass in a Cubs uniform and had a career year.

Vernon Wells would be great in CF but it ain't happening under any circumstances. The Cubs already have enough big dollar contracts locked up and with Big Z around the corner, another Wells type player won't be added. Plus the Cubs fully intend to let Pie have a crack at CF by 2008.

Meanwhile, Daisuke Matzusaka remains unsigned. In a week I give you all permission to tell me how wise and far-seeing I am.

you also have a week to be very, very wrong.

Meanwhile, Daisuke Matzusaka remains unsigned. In a week I give you all permission to tell me how wise and far-seeing I am.

Um, who are you?

CWTP-

Does Lily being 30 (usually good age for pitchers) coming from the AL and having Dlee and Soriano's bat for a whole year only gets an equal to the sometimes chuck and duck Maddux if "he has a good year?"

Lilly faced Boston and the Yankees in his division last year.

Here he faces Pujols, and Berkman in the NL Central.That's it.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic.

Cubs dodge another bullet...

Pettitte just signed a 1 year deal with the New York Yankees.

Source: WFAN in NY

Newhan for Jones? That is very funny. I know Jacque is worth more than that. Maybe Newhan and Rodrigo Lopez makes more sense. Or Jones and a prospect(s) for Bedard.

thnx manny, I guess Olney is saying there's a 2008 option as well.

hey, Carl Pavano is now available...

The Cubs seem to feel that Marmol has a much higher ceiling than Marshall, and could be a future closer.

To me, Church is no more than a stop-gap in CF until Pie is ready, and then a solid 4th OF after that. If Marmol really projects that highly, then Marmol-for-Church is a lousy deal.

If Marshall projects as nothing more than a #5 starter, and with Lilly and Hill already in the rotation and Veal on the way, the Marshall for Church is a bit more defensible, especially in a market in which the demand for CF's way outstrips the supply.

I am Horatio.

Marshall >>>>> Marmol

now and tomorrow...

Giving up Marmol before Marshall is not a better move... Marshall is a three at the most, Marmol has the stuff to be a frontline starter (not that he will be). If offered, Marshall for Church should have been done yesterday, especially considering the Lilly-Hill combo holding down the lefty contigent in the rotation.

Marshall was decent last year, but he was injury prone and his stuff was hardly impressive. Nice makeup, but the physical gifts are lacking.

This just in "Hotlist" on ESPN News (T.V) reports Andy Pettite agrees to a 1 year deal worth $15 million with the Yankees. With that being reported you know he spoke with his best friend Roger Clemons to see where he would sign since that was the only reason he signed with Houston to begin with. As of now you know who Roger Clemons will sign with...you got it (Yankees) Bye Bye Houston Astros.. I read a comment from one of the e-mailers on MLB Trade Rumors.com WGN reported Cubs signed Jason Marquis for 3yrs 27 mil. PLEASE PLEASE tell me if it is true.

Giving up Marmol before Marshall is not a better move... Marshall is a three at the most, Marmol has the stuff to be a frontline starter (not that he will be). If offered, Marshall for Church should have been done yesterday, especially considering the Lilly-Hill combo holding down the lefty contigent in the rotation.

Marshall was decent last year, but he was injury prone and his stuff was hardly impressive. Nice makeup, but the physical gifts are lacking.

via rotoworld...

$16 mil for one year with a player option for Petitte

Marshall >>>>> Marmol

-

Marmol must be a sack of burning dog poo.

Why has Church fallen so out of favor at Washington?

Olney says the Petitte deal is $16M x 1yr plus an option. Maybe they won't negotiate with Kei Igawa. Why toss out $26M plus salary?

Is this Hollywood Squares...Yankees to block? And if the Bosox don't sign Daisuke Matsuzaka, Redsox to Block?

Maybe they will rename the posting process...the Composting process.

WSux sign McDougal to a 3 yr deal...didn't hear the $$ yet. On WSCR radio.

given that mats is on the west coast finishing filming a series of shoe commercials for a US contract...the chances of him not signing is probably pretty slim.

If they change the posting rules as a result, it will have been a great success in my book.

well yeah, that's pretty much my assessment of Marmol, but Marshall is going to be a good starter in this league one day, probably not great, but good.

you'll see, you'll all see!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crunch,

DEWEY WINS!!

The Cubs have been big on Marmol since they first switched him to pitcher. Oddly, I've never heard the Cubs get all ga-ga on Marshall, even when he was at the lower levels of the minors. I think they're very lukewarm on his upside.

Given we already have two lefties in the rotation now (Hill and Lilly), I think that pretty much cements it--Marshall is the one that will go.

I think the Cubs will hang on to Guzman, his ceiling is too high. Mateo and Ryu no interest, they're flotsam.

Thanks Rob G.
You are correct ESPN News made correction just now 16 million 1 year & player option. Have you heard anything reagarding Cubs signing Jason Marquis??? Hope they sign Jeff Suppan.

dewey wins? lets not go that far into this...this is baseball, not predicting an election or setting up its outcome.

you have no more influence on this than any of us, but something that does have influence i just handed you some info on...

if you dont think an agent setting up this work for him and him setting this work in progress isnt something that might interest your predictions, then youre not using every tool available to you for your prediction.

Mateo isn't flotsam.

He'll be better than both Marmol and Marshall.

Mateo = pretty good back of the rotation starter
Marshall = steaming turd
Marmol = flaming sack of dog poo

One web site says that Tampa is considering signing Russ Springer or David Riske as their closer. Why not Howry for Baldelli? Beef it up and try for Crawford - Howry, Marshall and mid level prospect?. Seems like their is something there to at least discuss. Tampa has been notoriously difficult to trade with, but don't they have a new GM? What sane GM wouldn't rather have Howry closing than one of those other two non-descripts. Even better, maybe they would take Dempster.

Ha, marmol has been pitching for what, two years? His arm is ridiculous. If he harnesses his ability, he'll be pretty good, whatever that means.

BJS-

All of them being Cub pitching products they probably have towels in their futures--either rehabbing with them or drying cars at a car wash.

With what Howry makes, his Devil Rays teammates would be begging him to take them out to dinner and such.

I couldn't agree more with Rob G. on Marshall v. Marmol. But I'll take either one over that new Balboa.

Why would you give up howry? Eyre or Ohman makes much more sense, considering the three lefties currently in the 'pen (if we assume Cotts relieves).
Howry was pretty solid last season, I'd be wary of just giving him up, especially considering how difficult good relief pitching is to find... Also, I don't think TB is going to want to pay Howry's contract. So, Ohman probably makes more send (or cotts).

I wouldn't say that Marmol's arm is ridiculous. He has a rising fastball with pretty good velocity, but a rising fastball doesn't really go good with Wrigley. I'll take Marshall instead.

I think Marmol might actually be pretty good. I was just kidding because of Rob's (mildly retarded) comment about him and Marshall. Marshall could be a servicable back of the rotation guy too... someday.

I'd say the pecking order is:

Mateo
Marmol
Marshall
Guzman
Ryu

Gooz is more talented than any of them. If he ever gets an attention span longer than 5 seconds and starts finding the strike zone, he'll be a great starter. Let's hope he does or we might have to look at Marquis for 32 starts next year.

One big reason that Church fell out of favor in DC is that he refused to goto winter ball - claiming that he has already proven himself in the majors.

so attitude problems it seems like, doesn't want to be a role player, feels like he deserves to be everyday player and doesn't want to accept less. basically he doesn't really seem like a team player.

FWIW, the Nats of course deny any bad relations with him, but of course thats just PR.

Sad Cub Fan:

Its CLEMENS not CLEMONS.

TJ: You don't mess with Howry. He is our safety net for Ryan "I am Truly Embarrassed" Dempster.

None of us know if Kerry Wood can even pitch let alone becoming the closer.

HORATIO: DEWEY WINS - Funny!

Why would you give up howry?

Considering how many bullpen arms the Cubs have right now, the Cubs should be open to trading any one of them. Howry is probably the best of the bunch, but that also means he would seem to have the potential to bring back the most value.

Even if the Cubs lost Howry, they'd still have one of the better bullpens in baseball, in both quality and in depth.

I disagree. The bullpen is average without Howry. Too many hit and miss guys ... hey, that's life in the pen.

Church had a bad off-field incident, either a DWI or a fight, which apparently is part of a pattern of similar problems.

If he settles down, he could be a very good player, but there are some serious character issues here.

I retract my comments about the characer issue with Church. I was certain that I had seen a news item about him in a very unfavorable light, but I cannot find a link to it. I must have confused him with another player, and apologize for the mistake.

I did find that he has made some public statements concerning his Christian beliefs that generated some controversy in D.C., but nothing else.

My bad.

No prob. I'm sure he kicks puppies or cuts people off on the highway or something.

You think the Cubs would go after Marcus Giles if he gets a pink slip next week?

Why get Giles when you have...

DEROSA!

Church had some issues with Robinson about not wanting to play cause he didn't feel 100% (crashed into a wall, bad bruise, shoulder hurt or something), long line of stupid crap with between them.

no carlos I don't....

padres still might pick him up even with walker accepting arbitration, mets maybe, but I honestly doubt the braves just drop him.

SEAM: You have been reported to the Ryan Church Fan Club and should be hearing from the Club's President shortly, I would think.

1. Horatio is a moron
2. Marmol is closer quality. You don't trade guys like that.
3. Mateo and Marshall are both also good. Marshall bashers obviously missed the first half of last year. The league didn't make adjustments to him, he just got himself injured. Trade him if need be, but get something worthwhile for himn.
4. Horatio is big pile of dog poop.
5. Ryan Church will NOT have an attitude problem with Lou Piniella as his manager, unless he likes sandpapering the bench.
6. Why get Brian Giles when you have Matt Murton?
7. I don't like Marcus Giles. Too much bad karma with the Prior thing, even though it wasn't his fault.
8. I think this site should ban Horatio's IP address.
9. I want Vernon Wells on this team, and would trade BOTH Marshall and Marmol to get him, if that's what it took and he agreed to a contract extension.
10. A team that pays one player $128 million can no longer say it can't afford another player, no matter what anyone says.
11. Jim Hendry doesn't live a healthy life. You could see that in him long before he went to the hospital. I wish him well and I hope he starts taking better care of himself.
12. Horatio is a stupid name, even for a screen name.

13. George Bush does not care about black people.

Old and blue:
Marshall bashers obviously missed the first half of last year. The league didn't make adjustments to him, he just got himself injured. Trade him if need be, but get something worthwhile for himn.

His stuff never really was that dynamite, but at the beginning of the year he was hitting his spots with really good precision. The second half he lost that. What do you do with a guy like that? I wonder if, in ST, he'll be '06 first half Marshall or '06 second half Marshall.

Yankees owner George Steinbrenner said he'd consider giving Dwight Gooden a role with the team provided he stays off drugs and alcohol until mid-February.
Full Story

1.- I think Old And Blue just made a fantastic post.

The league didn't make adjustments to him, he just got himself injured.

Marshall was getting his ass handed to him by June... before he was injured.

and what Marmol really kicked ass? Mateo?

none of them had any business being in the majors last year. Marshall has always been one of our better prospects with 3 pitches he can command. Mateo's basically a 2 pitch wonder and Marmol might have the liveliest arm but it's going to take a lot of work to make him useful, and more likely in a bullpen role.

oh yeah, old and blue, please don't go after the readers like that again.

speaking of the nats, anyway we can get John Patterson included in a deal, they can have Marshall, Mateo and Marmol as far as I'm concerened. and yes I know he's an injury wreck, but damn filthy and still cheap when on.

"#60 of 64: By jacos (December 8, 2006 05:56 PM)
13. George Bush does not care about black people."

Brilliant!

I wish Bowden was as high on Marmol and Mateo as some people around here. Patterson would make a good number two guy.

me too Steve, what's wrong with him?

He probably found out how good it feels to make a smart trade, after he got Kearns,Lopez for Majewski and Brey, and has decided to change his ways. He might still have a few bad ones left, however.

The Red Sox are going to sign Matsuzaka.
Typical Boras move to wait as long as possible to back the Red Sox into a corner. He'll sign within 24 hours of the deadline.

"and what Marmol really kicked ass? Mateo?"

--

What is this shit? I pointed out earlier how badly they all stunk last year. Sure, Marshall may be good someday, but he's gonna need some Glavine-like command with his less than impressive stuff. He walked the tightrope at times, but he did have a few of good starts. He was getting hammered after the league saw him.
Take it easy, mitch.

Marshall, Marmol, Mateo, Miller and maybe Marquis.
Mpressive! To bad we traded Maddux and didn't sign Meche.

NY TIMES ARTICLE, today:

"Money Can't Buy Happieness, But the Cubs Think it Does"

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/08/sports/base...

If the Sox are willing to deal Garland, why not send them JJ and a young starter (plus a kicker if needed)? Also I WANT CARL CRAWFORD!

cause Jon Garland sucks....

Crosstown -- Good point. It seems like JJ would be an upgrade over either Brian Anderson or Scott Podsednik. If the Sox were going to trade Garland for Tavares, Buckholz and Hirsh, it seems like the Cubs could put a similar deal together. Garland would make a really nice starter for the Cubs.

Rob G -- You're not serious, are you?

Jon Garland sucks, Jon Garland sucks, Jon Garland sucks, Jon Garland sucks!!!!!!!!

but I'd take him over Jason Marquis.

your talking Donnie Veal, Marmol or Marshall and Jones (if their even interested in Jones).

Jon Garland, plain and simple, is a poor man's Jeff Suppan.

no I'm not kidding, Jon Garland is the very defintion of average, thus I do not want to give up anything that is worth more than average for him.

JJ straight up is all he's worth...

I don't see the Sox making anything but minor trades with the Cubs. Garland isn't really a number two starter and that's what we need.

Hirsh = top prospect, Buchholz = upper tier prospect, Taveras = reliable CF.

So, our package would have to be: Jones, Donnie Veal and Sean Gallagher. No, thanks, Kenny!

oh, is Bucholz that highly rated? He didn't even make their top 10 list by BA last year. If he is though, then yeah, your talking Gallagher or Guzman.

Buchholz is considered some kind of sleeper at age 25. He was the return in the Billy Wagner trade, and immediatly became the Astros' top prospect in 2003, followed by the #7 spot in 2004 before he got hit hard in AAA, making his stock drop a little. It is unknown whether Taylor was injured in 2004 and 2005. Either way, I'd consider him a pretty upper tier prospect at this point, even if he's not a rookie, anymore.

ah, so he is Angel Guzman. There you go, Veal, Guzman and Jones (if the White Sox even like Jones).

That sounds reasonable, no?

I like both Suppan and Garland. I think they are very similar. Garland has pitched more innings than Suppan over the past four years, has a better W-L record, and a slightly lower ERA. Suppan has slightly better K and BB numbers per 9 innings, but the differences between the two are negligible.

Considering the other choices out there, I'd like to see the Cubs either sign Suppan or trade for Garland. I just don't see any better options out there (unless my trade idea for Dontrelle Willis works).

from the O's they were supposedly asking for Garrett Olson (6th in BA's top 10 O's prospects this year) and Daniel Cabrera as well.

#35 of 73: By Eric the Great (December 8, 2006 04:42 PM)
The Cubs have been big on Marmol since they first switched him to pitcher. Oddly, I've never heard the Cubs get all ga-ga on Marshall, even when he was at the lower levels of the minors. I think they're very lukewarm on his upside.

=====================================

ERIC: I believe Marmol's days as a starter are over, and that he will be at Iowa next season prepping for the role of closer. For whatever reason, his velocity goes up about 3-4 MPH and he throws strikes more consistently when he knows he's going to throw just one inning. When he starts, he nibbles and tries to get outs by tricking the hitters.

I think the Cubs like Sean Marshall a lot. I don't think they planned for him to pitch in the big leagues last season, though. He went straight from AA to the majors, and really didn't spend all that much time at AA when he was there (10 GS over two seasons).

I also think Hendry & Company might be a little hesitant to trade their young pitchers until they can get a better handle on their potential. I suspect Hendry probably thinks about how easy it would have been to trade Rich Hill last off-season or early in the 2006 season, and he might occasionally regret trading Ricky Nolasco, too.

It's entirely possible that at least one of the Cubs youngsters (Marshall, Guzman, Mateo, or Ryu, maybe even Sean Gallagher) will emerge as a certified established MLB starter next season, just like Ricky Nolasco and Rich Hill appeared to do in '06.

And besides, once you get to the point where you're trying to decide between Suppan and Marquis and which one of the two gets 3/27, maybe you just need to take a deep breath, step back, and instead let Marshall, Guzman, Mateo, and Ryu duke it out during Spring Training, figuring that at least one of the four (don't know which one yet, though) is bound to be at least as good as Suppan or Marquis (and without the 3/27, too!).

And if it becomes possible at some point (and perhaps it's just not possible right now) to acquire Jason Jennings, Jake Westbrook, or ??? in a trade, then you just make a trade at that time. That might be a better plan than rushing to sign a Suppan or a Marquis just because the rotation still has a hole in it.

Same goes for Jacque Jones. Keep him unless and until you can get fair value in return for him.

speaking of top 10 prospects, BA has started their list.

Rangers are the last AL team left, Cubs go on January 29th

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospect...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/colu...

rumor be that the Petitte would have gone to the Astros for $14 mil, but they wouldn't budge off $12.

So be it....

no doubt they'll get someone like Jennings or whatever as they seem willing to trade their young guys.

AZ PHIL:

What do you think of Rule V draftee, Joakim Soria? His translated Mexican League-to-MLB statistics are in Nate Silver's latest article at BP. Check it out.

#59

Ha ha, good post. For the record, Horatio is my middle name, not some clever screen name, so bugger off if you don't like it. Even if it was only a screen name, same thing. But funny post.

I would LOVE IT if we got Jon Garland. Not that I think we could get him, just that his name came up and I wanted to put in my 2 cents (imagine that). Jon Garland was 19th in MLB in expected W-L record, 27th in IP, 53rd in SNVLAR, 43rd in WHIP (min. 180 IP). He's no Johan Santana (1st in just about every one of those categories) but seeing as there's 30 teams, he's definitely a number 2 if not a borderline 1. Seeing as the Cubs happen to need a number 2 (not so fast TR Lilly), he'd be a pretty useful addition to the ball club.

Crunch, the DEWEY WINS reference was merely to show that I am unimpressed with the fact that NIKE of the unlimited ad budget is rolling the dice in order to have the ability to run their commercials the day after DM is signed. The fact that NIKE is trying to position itself for a big splash has absolutely NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on whether or not he will be signed. NIKE is doing exactly what the Tribune did. They're reading the tea leaves and acting accordingly. And, much like the Tribune, they will also be wrong.

#90 of 91: By Carlos (December 8, 2006 08:09 PM)
AZ PHIL:

What do you think of Rule V draftee, Joakim Soria? His translated Mexican League-to-MLB statistics are in Nate Silver's latest article at BP. Check it out.

============================

CARLOS: That's interesting. I've never actually seen Soria pitch, but I'm hoping to get a look at him in ST with the Royals.

only NIKE has to make investments like this and get talent arranged to show up via his agent who would negotiate with NIKE and their super unlimited budget beyond the world would every know til the end of time in the known universe forever to the max with some kind of notion that its gonna happen.

sorry if you're unimpressed by some info that might help your perception, but it seems you know what NIKE is up to and you know how to deal with it.

oops...forgot to close out those u/b tags.

My thoughts:

1. As much as I love Rob, I disagree with his opinion of Jon Garland. I really like Garland. Low walk totals, Eats innings. Shave a run off the ERA in switching leagues-he'd be my first choice over the several options discussed on this board.

2. Ryan Church is 27 or 28 yrs old-excuse the sloppy journalism-too lazy to look it up-for Wil Ohman, maybe-but not someone I'm excited about. Too many strikeouts too.

3. Said it before and I'll say it again-Jones and Scott Moore and if need be, Will Ohman to the Phils for Aaron Rowand and Jon Lieber. The Phils need a 3b complement to Wes Helms, they want to move Rowand and put Victorino in cf and they need pen. Jones put up good numbers and the Phils would save coin. We'd get a veteran ground ball pitcher with a good Wrigley track record. Rowand could play center-he'd love crashing into those bricks-and could hit in the 6th hole in the lineup. It works too well if you ask me.

4. As much as I agree with Az Phil on not wanting to give away our young pitchers, lets face it, we have too many mlb ready pitchers and too many holes to fill. I think we have almost 20 major league pitchers. Not enough innings to go around. I'd say we trade one or two out of Guzman, Ryu, Marshall, Mateo, Ohman or Novoa.

Carlos:
"You think the Cubs would go after Marcus Giles if he gets a pink slip next week?"

If we can get him very cheap, why not? But if we wants a lot of money, I say pass. He has declined pretty bad the last few years. But with the nonsensical DeRosa signing, I don't think the Cubs will even look at him. Not a big loss IMO.

I don't think Mateo projects as anything more than a 5th starter. He couldn't go past the 5th inning with any consistency at all. Besides that, his stuff just isn't that great. I think he would make for a pretty effective long-reliever or set-up man. Marshall has potential, but he needs more seasoning. If we can get a good player, and he's one of the trading chips we have to use, so be it. Otherwise, I'd like to see him at Triple-A next year. Marmol is intriguing; I agree with everything that was said about him before he got called up (a lot of it via AZ Phil): He pitches much better when he knows he's only going for 1-2 innings. His first two appearances--out of the bullpen--were absolutely stellar. He threw strikes. He threw hard strikes. He challenged hitters with blazing hard strikes. He snapped off a sharp-ass curveball--sometimes for called strikes. As a starter, he tried cutting his fastball and nibbling at the corner. His command was non-existent, and his control sucked. His velocity was also way down, and his curve didn't seem to have the same bite to it. Closer or set-up man. I have no problem trading Guzman. I'd want more than Church in return, but if we could trade, say, Guzman and Marshall and a power-hitting OF prospect (say, Ryan Harvey for instance) for Cordero and Church or Patterson and Church, I'd do it. I doubt that even Bowden would be dumb enough to bite on that trade, though. Having Cordero would give the Cubs the best bullpen in the NL, easily...

"CARLOS: That's interesting. I've never actually seen Soria pitch, but I'm hoping to get a look at him in ST with the Royals."

Soria, 22, throws four pitches for strikes -- a nasty upper nineties fastball with deceiving movement (even in Mexico City's altitude), splitter, changeup and curveball. Already a Tommy John Surgery survivor, he knows the swingman role well and could either be placed in the bullpen or as the Royals' third starter. Tall and slim, he could gain a mile per hour or two on his fastball if/when he fills his 6'2 frame.

Soria was originally signed by the Los Angeles Dodgers organization as a NDFA in 2001 but was released after his torn UCL prognosis in early 2004. Big mistake.

I really can't believe so many people like Garland. He does eat innings, but the Cubs don't need an inning eater, they need a top tier pitcher. And Garland with his 1.37 WHIP and 4.50+ ERA isn't it. If he wasn't on a top run scoring team he would be a .500 pitcher. Good for a 3 or 4 starter.

Manny -- Who would you suggest if you are not high on Garland? Unless something really unexpected happens, I don't see any better alternatives.

Cubs may still need a few starters, but so does the rest of the division.

At this point, I don't think anybody even has a full rotation (assuming no Clemens in Houston), and the trio of Z, Lilly and Hill (2nd half Hill...) may be as good any top three in the NL Central.

Obviously, still moves to be made, but this is where things stand today.

"ah, so he is Angel Guzman. There you go, Veal, Guzman and Jones (if the White Sox even like Jones).

That sounds reasonable, no?"

I think you left out, a crackpipe and a dimebag from the WhiteSox. Wake me up when Garland has periphials like Guzman or Veal. Sheesh Rob, I think you're losing it!

I think he was being sarcastic, Real Neal. Read the rest of the thread. Both Rob and I hate Garland.

"Shave a run off the ERA in switching leagues-he'd be my first choice over the several options discussed on this board."

Hi, I am not going to get all statty technical on you. I am going to use a bit of logic though. Say you had a lineup of all pitchers. Say they could scrounge together, 1 run per game. Now say you had a lineup of all DH's. They would have to score 10 runs a game for an AL pitcher to drop 1 run in ERA by switching leagues.

.1 to .3 if you're really optimistic. The NL central is not by far the worst pitching environment in the NL, too.

"I think he was being sarcastic, Real Neal. Read the rest of the thread."

I read the entire thread, one of the benifits of being drunk at 3 AM in Europe.

If Rob G was being sarcastic, he needs to go to the Real Neal school of sarcasm, because it's a bit mild. He did start out with a bid of Jacque and then added Veal and Guzman to the offer, maybe he is just bidding against himself alla Tom Hicks?

AZ Phil--

That's been my impression of Marmol too, I remember people have had him targeted as a future end-of-game reliever for two years now. He's been starting just to build up arm strength and get maximum experience pitching. The kid's fastball alone makes him an ideal development case for a future setup man or closer circa 2008. I'd stash him in Iowa for this coming year and make him their closer from day one--even if the Cubs get Holdzkom back.

Marshall has plenty of options left, no reason to bail on him so soon. He has spent zero time in AAA. That's where I'd start him out.

I will have to disagree with you on Mateo though, I see nothing in him that suggests his upside is better than a Runelvys Hernandez type of guy. Meh. I'd willingly trade Mateo, JK Ryu (another meh), Will Ohman (Rapada is ready), and Roberto Novoa (yuck!!!!) this offseason.

Iowa's opening day rotation? Marshall, Guzman, Gallagher, Ryu (if not traded), Walrond (filler). Pignatiello, Marmol, Brownlie, Holdzkom (if returned to us), Shipman (if returned to us), TBD loogy. Pretty impressive AAA staff if you ask me.

In fact Phil, I'm sure later this winter you'll provide a detailed preview of the minors for 2007, but for the first time in a long time, AAA Iowa will be the Cubs' affiliate to watch most closely. Besides all these pitchers, Felix Pie, Eric Patterson, Scott Moore, Casey McGahee and Geovanny Soto will all be starters. Mike Fontenot might get a chance to start if the I-Cubs put E-Patt in the OF. I'm guessing Micah Hoffpauir will be in the mix somehow and if he's returned to us, Jason Smith as well. Solid group of players.

Read comment #79 Real Neal..... (but yes sarcasm)....

Sweet Lou:
"Manny -- Who would you suggest if you are not high on Garland? Unless something really unexpected happens, I don't see any better alternatives."

I would try and make a trade for a top tier pitcher if I couldn't of landed Schmidt or Zito. If we can't do the trade alone, make it a 3-way deal. But if not, then just let a rookie fill the spot and wait till a top pitcher becomes available. The Cubs aren't going to win with all these mediocre pitchers anyway, so why stock up on them and be stuck with them for years?

speaking of Jennings, asking price right now is Hirsh and either Tavarers or Wheeler

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_4806278

so Gallagher or Veal and Howry, since we've already heard they don't want Jones for CF.

BillyBucks:
"Cubs may still need a few starters, but so does the rest of the division."

To be honest, I am a bit tired of worrying about other teams in our division. Why can't we just build a great team? We have a $125 million payroll now. I can care less how bad the other teams in the division are supposedly. Every year some people keep thinking we can compete because the other teams have gotten worse. Kind of addition by subtraction. Doesn't seem to have worked much the last 2-3 years. Maybe we should build a kick ass team for a change instead of making mediocre additions and hoping the rest of the division has bad years.

payton signs 2/9.75 with the orioles...lessens the chance of seeing jones go there.

Giving up Howry is very dangerous IMO, with Wood and Dempster big question marks. Yes, I agree 100% we need to add a top tier SP (not that Jennings is even close), but unless he is a legit top tier SP, trading the best bullpen arm might not be the answer.

Payton on the cheap. I wonder why Hendry didn't sign him, he's a fantastic defensive outfielder and is capable of the occasional homerun. Sure, his OBP is pathetic, but isn't this the Cubs?

An observation on the state of the NL central from a poster on a message board doesn't mean that the Cubs aren't operating under the hope that the rest of the division gets worse.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yxfc3p

talks about Braves interest in Baldelli, along the lines of Saltalamachhia, Kyle Davies and their SS Yunel Escobar. Braves not willing to give up Chuck James.

Manny-

Fair point, but, other than the Dodgers, who as a lot of good starters in the NL? My point was more that the Cubs can likely compete for a playoff spot with what they've got, given the current state of starting pitching in the league.

However, they may want to keep that over-stocked bullpen full (Dempster, Howry, Eyre, Wuertz, Cotts, Ohman, Wood?), because Miller/Prior will be on an innings watch, as will any of the kids.

Who really gives a rats ass about Marmol. You think we are building a team to wait for Marmol to get good in 2-3 years, if ever? In case you haven't noticed the franchise is putting down large sums of cash to win now and if Marmol is such hot shit and can bring a MLB caliber player in return then you ship him out ASAP and improve the team NOW.

Why Marmol would be worth anything I don't know, he is a major major project pitcher which we can't afford to have patience with if we seriously want to win anytime soon.

And that pretty much goes for Guzman, Gallagher, Veal and anyone else. If they are not helping in 2007, then they are traid bait to improve the rotation and find us a CFer. I don't give a damn about any player that isn't ready to stand up and perform in 2007.

The Cubs have spent $250 million on new contracts this off-season, they are not planning on gradually improving over a 5 year period.

BILLYBUCKS: "Cubs may still need a few starters, but so does the rest of the division."

It is interesting, that the three percieved "main" competitors have three aces, but after that, things are relatively (note the word) around the same.

After the 'Stros did not re-sign Petitte, and Clemens is undecided, it has pulled everyone pretty even.

I would think Hendry would HAVE to acquire a true #2 by cubs Convention - wouldn't you think?

Rob G. or MIKEC,
How do I announce a trade for our fantasy league?

Just type in "Accepted Trades" in the search field and put your post up, once the other person replies and confirms it is done.

" I think we have almost 20 major league pitchers." - Fanzone

Careful. That's the kind of over-the-top insane optimism that has led to 130,000 Americans being bogged down in Iraq.

I know the market is what it is, but seriously, how on God's green earth can a guy like Jason Marquis be seeking, and possibly get, $10 million a year? This is a guy who has had ONE WINNING season two seasons ago, allowed 35 HOMERUNS last year, and had an era, no kidding, of 6.02. And that's not an inflated era of 10 starts. That's 30 or so starts. I can see a low 5 era in a hitter friendly park I guess still being somewhat decent in this day in age, but come on, a 6.02 era gets you $10 million a year? What is the baseball world coming to. Unreal.

I know the market is what it is, but seriously, how on God's green earth can a guy like Jason Marquis be seeking, and possibly get, $10 million a year? This is a guy who has had ONE WINNING season two seasons ago, allowed 35 HOMERUNS last year, and had an era, no kidding, of 6.02. And that's not an inflated era of 10 starts. That's 30 or so starts. I can see a low 5 era in a hitter friendly park I guess still being somewhat decent in this day in age, but come on, a 6.02 era gets you $10 million a year? What is the baseball world coming to. Unreal.

I am not exactly sure what is wrong with Marquis. He had a nice year, 3 years ago, but since then seems to have traded strikeouts for homeruns. Maybe it is the 'pitch to contact' philosophy the Cards employ, or maybe he's hurt. But any GM who gives him more than $4 million on a one-year deal with a team option, should be fired on the spot.

The White Sox don't necessarily have to trade Garland if they are going to move someone. I would still prefer Buerhle, who may be a bit cheaper considering the down year he had and impending free agency.

yeah if I had my pick of starters from the Wsox it would be Buehrle too..

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/cubs.asp?id...

some crap about marquis and how 2 really bad starts artificially inflated his ERA or something. It does say the Cubs would probably sign him to a deal with at least one option year and some vesting options. Please ignore that 3/27 made up crap....

Mentions of Lieber and Penny as well....

Jones for Leiber makes so much sense, I cannot figure out why it hasn't happened yet. Maybe they think they can get more? I am thinking they should throw in 2 million to even the contracts in 07.

After all the bitching the Sox are doing about us right now. I doubt very highly we'd be a trade partner. If we do sign Marquis, I wonder what we will get for Jones?

I wouldn't want to deal with the Sux for Garland, anyway. He's the definition of mediocrity, much along the lines of Kris Benson. He just happened to benefit from having a very strong offense behind him last year. I can't help but think that he's a bad teammate, either, for a couple of instances prior to '05 where he blamed losses on his teammates--one in particular where he blamed Konerko for an error. That's a big no-no in any sport, especially a professional sport. Poor form, Judy Garland.

Lieber would be a pretty good fit, I guess. I really had my heart set on Westbrook early this off-season, but I doubt that has any chance of happening. Brad Penny would be a nice addition. I will be very unhappy with Marquis, unless it's a 1-year, incentive-laden deal. And even then, I'd still be looking for an upgrade via trade. I'd rather go into the season having to rely on a mix-and-match 5th spot (Prior/Miller/Marshall/who-the-hell-ever) instead of Marquis, but I have a bad feeling he's gonna be wearing blue pinstripes next season.

This is odd...hmmmmmm.

No mention of a Marquis signing in the Chicago papers or any of the wire services (Fox, Yahoo). The St. Louis Post Dispatch had this:

Jocketty's search intensified as Jason Marquis became the first member of the 2006 rotation to land elsewhere. Marquis, banished from the rotation during the Division Series and excluded from the roster during the NLCS and World Series, accepted a three-year, $28 million bid from the Chicago Cubs. Marquis earned $5.15 million while going 14-16 with a 6.02 ERA.

http://tinyurl.com/vgrpl

They've been all over this story. They must have their own source no one else has.

But Nazey - tell us how you REALLY feel.

I almost threw up in my mouth now...

If this is true, taking a step back, I just cannot objectively figure out why? Hendry will have lots of 'xsplaining to do at the Cubs Convention.

This is no pitching help! Shit, I'd rather have Marshall pitch and live with the consequences.

The ONLY thing I can think is that perhaps it will be some kind of a sign and trade scenario? If not, the team will now have one #1, One #3, and four-five #4/#5's!

It is remarkable.

Tribune is reporting 3/28 for Marquis too

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yckyac

I think we have almost 20 major league pitchers." - Fanzone

"Careful. That's the kind of over-the-top insane optimism that has led to 130,000 Americans being bogged down in Iraq." ...tbone

Posted by: tbone at December 9, 2006 01:03 AM

I'm not saying we have 20 great pitchers but I am saying that we have nearly 20 guys with either major league experience or are major league ready. My thought is there are only so many innings to go around. You can't promote the AA guys if you don't have spots for them in AAA.

The market for young, cheap arms seems really high right now, so I would think we could spin a few to get an established starter.

Basically, I would rather package a few arms to get a quality major league pitcher then to pull the deals we did last year with Leicaster, Wellemyer, Van Buren and Koronka. I understand the fear to trade them but we've already made the choice to try to win now.

Tribune is actually reporting 3 years $20MM. I'd assume some portion of that money is incentive and/or option based.

ok they changed it, the story said 28 million earlier this morning.

ESPN is now reporting Marquis 3/$28m. Unbelievable.

They're probably just repeating the rumored value that had been floating around. The Trib is usually pretty accurate on dollar amount.

I really love reading all these deals for SP's with JJones and (take your pick) Marmol, Marshall, Mateo, Guzman, et al. All these 'top prospects' look great to a team's fans and in some cases their team's management until you get to the winter meetings or approach July 31st. Then the laws of supply and demand take over like it has for over 150 years since Adam Smith wrote Wealth of Nations. All these guys are chaff when you're talking about trading for a Jennings, Westbrook, or Penny. Those GM's aren't going to be suckered into taking the Cubs also-rans. Oh, they'll take Jacque just as long as Veal, Pawelek, Pie, and probably Howry or Eyre are included in the mix. And you can forget about Vernon Wells and Carl Crawford because the entire Cub farm system doesn't include talent Toronto or TB would want for those two guys -- think Top 5 farm system (e.g. Angels, Dodgers, etc.)

I really love reading all these deals for SP's with JJones and (take your pick) Marmol, Marshall, Mateo, Guzman, et al. All these 'top prospects' look great to a team's fans and in some cases their team's management until you get to the winter meetings or approach July 31st. Then the laws of supply and demand take over like it has for over 150 years since Adam Smith wrote Wealth of Nations. All these guys are chaff when you're talking about trading for a Jennings, Westbrook, or Penny. Those GM's aren't going to be suckered into taking the Cubs also-rans. Oh, they'll take Jacque just as long as Veal, Pawelek, Pie, and probably Howry or Eyre are included in the mix. And you can forget about Vernon Wells and Carl Crawford because the entire Cub farm system doesn't include talent Toronto or TB would want for those two guys -- think Top 5 farm system (e.g. Angels, Dodgers, etc.)

espn says:

"The St. Louis Post Dispatch first reported the deal late Friday as being worth $28 million. Sources told the Chicago Tribune in a report Saturday that the deal was worth approximately $20 million."

20 mil isn't bad for Marquis.

20 million dollars for a guy with an ERA of 6 last year. Fuckin' genius.

Any guesses on when this guy has his year-ending shoulder surgery this year?

"The St. Louis Post Dispatch first reported the deal late Friday as being worth $28 million. Sources told the Chicago Tribune in a report Saturday that the deal was worth approximately $20 million."

I worry that "approximately" means "give or take $8 million."

Bruce Miles says:

"The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported the deal to be worth $28 million, but Cubs insiders insist that figure is too high and that the final contract is expected to be worth closer to $20 million to $21 million."

This seems like a(nother) waste of money.

I can't believe that Marshall or Marmol could not pitch below a 6.02 ERA.

Hi George,

1. There was supply and demand before Adam Smith, he just tried to explain it.
2. Garcia is a better pitcher than Jennings and was traded for 1 guy who hasn't made the conversion to the bigs and 1 5'10 lefthander who had a 4 something ERA in AA. Guzman and Veal would be equavalent to them in most scouts' eyes, and superior in some.
3. Neither Toronto or TB is looking for prospects for Wells and Crawford.

Wow, if Marquis is worth 3/20, I guess Glendon Rusch is the biggest value in baseball.

This would be the single worst signing of Hendry's tenure.

Was Hendry still doped up after his surgery when he made this agreement, and if so, can the Cubs get the contract voided?

*" I think we have almost 20 major league pitchers." - Fanzone

Careful. That's the kind of over-the-top insane optimism that has led to 130,000 Americans being bogged down in Iraq.*

Suffice to say that not only is this analogy flippant and stupid, it's also plain wrong.

Bogged down? The mission was to topple Saddam. Last time I checked, he's got a date with the hangman. I guess all the policemen in the entire US are "bogged down" since there are still murders and other crimes on a daily basis.

Of course, if people like you had their way, we'd not be able to surveil people who want to blow up shopping malls, etc.

Illinois is a quagmire!

OK,

If these reports are indeed true. If the Cubs are on the hook for more than $4 million for this guy, fire Hendry.

Rotschild watched him through, eh? The best place to see what kind of ball he is throwing is in the right field bleachers.

throw?

Any guesses on when this guy has his year-ending shoulder surgery this year?

Hopefully around April 1. We're talking about another pitcher who is actually more useful on the DL than when he's on the mound.

Although I do love the line in the Trib story that 'the Cubs are hopeful that Rothschild can fix Marquis problems.' That's just rich.

And can we please stop any mention of the word "Iraq" right now before things get out of control?

He was better than Lilly in '04-05, he's three years younger, and he costs quite a bit less. He's probably also the top candidate to get bumped from the rotation if Miller/Prior both show up healthy. The sky isn't falling.

Sure he's a candidate to get bumped from the rotation, but then you've got to put him in the already overcrowded bullpen - where you'll probably be forced to send a young but more useful arm down to Iowa.

The 3 year contract makes him a huge liability because its extremely unlikely he will be DFA'd if Rothschild is unable to fix what ailed him in 2006.

If this was just a one year deal, I could understand the gamble, but giving a 3 year contract to a guy who didn't make the playoff roster of his last team just doesn't sound like a good way to build a championship ballclub.

ChicagoSports.com:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/chi-0...

Its official. And why the hell not? its 7 mil a year? Thats half the money that Z will be getting. And he's half the pitcher. I don't understand why you are all so pissed.

Look at the bright side, we now have the best hitting pitchers in the game.

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