Have Your Pencils, and Scorecards Ready…

Contracts have been tendered and salary abritration has been offered, so pending further trades, FA signings, and minor league acquisitions, here is the projected Cubs organizational position depth chart, including the Cubs and their four full-season farm clubs (Iowa, Tennessee, Daytona, and Peoria). There are quite obviously too many position-players and pitchers listed on the various minor league teams, so not all of the candidates will survive Minor League Camp (Spring Training). Some will get released, while others will get moved in a "courtesy trade" to allow them to go to an organization where they aren't blocked. * bats or throws left # bats both CATCHERS: CUBS: Michael Barrett/Henry Blanco IOWA: Geovany Soto/# Koyie Hill TENN: Jake Fox/Chris Robinson/Tony Richie DAYT: * Mark Reed/Jake Muyco/* Alan Rick PEOR: Mario Mercedes/Matt Canepa/Blake Parker ================================== FIRST-BASEMEN: CUBS: Derrek Lee/* Daryle Ward IOWA: * Micah Hoffpauir/Jesse Hoorelbeke TENN: Brian Dopirak DAYT: Ryan Norwood/Alberto Garcia PEOR: Russ Canzler ====================================== SECOND-BASEMEN: CUBS: Mark DeRosa/Ryan Theriot IOWA: * Eric Patterson/* Mike Fontenot TENN: * Nate Spears/Issmael Salas DAYT: * Matt Camp/Robinson Chirinos PEOR: * Steve Clevenger/# Matt Matulia ========================================= THIRD-BASEMEN: CUBS: Aramis Ramirez IOWA: Casey McGehee TENN: # Matt Craig DAYT: * Ryne Malone/Ryan Lilly PEOR: Josh Lansford/Elvin Puello ====================================== SHORTSTOPS: CUBS: # Cesar Izturis IOWA: Ronny Cedeno/* Gary Cates TENN: Joe Simokaitis/Carlos Rojas/# Albenis Machado DAYT: Jonathan Mota/* Kyle Reynolds PEOR: * Dylan Johnston/Sammy Baez ==================================== LEFT-FIELDERS: CUBS: Matt Murton/* Buck Coats IOWA: * Scott Moore TENN: Jemel Spearman/* Jeff Culpepper DAYT: Jesus Valdez/* Nate Price PEOR: D. J. Lewis ==================================== CENTER-FIELDERS: CUBS: * Jacque Jones/# Angel Pagan IOWA: * Felix Pie/Chris Walker TENN: * Sam Fuld DAYT: * Tyler Colvin/# Matt Ciaramella PEOR: * Davy Gregg ====================================== RIGHT-FIELDERS: CUBS: Alfonso Soriano IOWA: * Jorge Cortes TENN: Ryan Harvey DAYT: Yusuf Carter PEOR: Alfred Joseph =============================== STARTING PITCHERS: CUBS: Carlos Zambrano * Ted Lilly * Rich Hill Jason Marquis Mark Prior Wade Miller IOWA: * Sean Marshall Angel Guzman Jae-kuk Ryu Juan Mateo Randy Wells * Ryan O'Malley John Webb TENN: Sean Gallagher * Donald Veal * Chris Shaver * J. R. Mathes Mark Holliman Bobby Brownlie DAYT: Kevin Hart Grant Johnson Justin Berg Mitch Atkins Scott Taylor Billy Petrick PEOR: Jeff Samardzija * Mark Pawelek Billy Muldowney * Jeremy Papelbon Joel Santo Todd Blackford ================================ BULLPEN: CUBS: Ryan Dempster (closer) * Scott Eyre Bob Howry * Will Ohman Michael Wuertz * Neal Cotts Kerry Wood * Glendon Rusch IOWA: Carlos Marmol (closer) Roberto Novoa * Clay Rapada Rocky Cherry Federico Baez * Carmen Pignatiello Thomas Atlee * Les Walrond Jason Anderson Ben Howard * Nate Bland TENN: Adalberto Mendez (closer) Adam Harben * Tim Layden Michael Phelps Jon Hunton * Paul Schappert Jim Henderson * Geoff Jones Chadd Blasko DAYT: Matt Avery (closer) Jesse Estrada Justin Rayborn * Jerry Blevins * Scott Koerber                                                                           Mike Billek Roberto Sotolongo PEOR: Jose Ceda (closer) Michael Cooper Alessandro Maestri * Jayson Ruhlman Jon Mueller * Darin Downs Rocky Roquet Matt Harrington * Luke Hagerty * Zach McCormack
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Comments

I was way off about Matsuzaka. I hope the Red Sox go bankrupt.

Is the Marquis deal final yet? I don't recall ever seeing confirmation of a deal at cubs.com and yet Hendry apparently is talking about Marquis winning 15 games a year for the Cubs. I thought the only delay last weekend was for the guy to pass a physical. I thought that would have happened by now. Is the delay a bad sign (or a good sign if you are not a Marquis supporter)?

Marquis is supposed to get his physical to complete the deal as of next week. Lilly gets his physical today/tomorrow and that will make the deal "official" with a corresponding cubs.com confirmation.

ARM: The Jason Marquis deal is still officially "pending," sort of like when a house gets sold but all of the paperwork isn't completed or filed. That isn't unusual for a situation where a FA is signed to a contract during the off-season.

The only thing that would strike the deal is if Marquis flunks his physical or if the MLB office finds something about the contract that isn't kosher.

The only thing that would strike the deal is if Marquis flunks his physical or if the MLB office finds something about the contract that isn't kosher.

Apparently Marquis ordered a kosher contract, eh?

Based on Hendry's interview this morning on ESPN radio, I wouldn't expect to see any young starting pitchers dealt away in the near future. He emphasized that any team that goes into the FA market looking for pitching is going to be at a serious disadvantage, and that they were only in this winter's market out of necessity.

So I would not expect to see Marshall or any of the young pitching prospects dealt unless it was a trade deadline deal during a pennant race. Or a deal in which we trade a MLB-ready guy and receive younger pitching in return.

That AAA rotation looks pretty solid with genuine prospects instead of the usual retreads, followed by Veal and Gallagher at AA. So the pipeline is in place as long as we keep guys reasonably healthy.

That's right JMR:

You won't see Jason eating a hot dog with a milk mustache on the "Get Milk" billboard ads.

Man, if Zambrano gets hurt, that Iowa rotation might be better than the Cubs'.

OK, that's hyperbole, but it speaks to how little I think of Jason Marquis that I'd rather take a chance on any of the top 4 Iowa starters than on him (especially with a 3-year commitment).

Maybe you heard Hendry wrong, Arm. Maybe he's talking about Marquis winning 15 over the next three years. Given a few breaks, I think he can do just that.

AZ Phil -

you have Marmol listed as the closer at Iowa. Are you certain about this, because I hadn't read that. I knew there was some talk last season about moving him to the bullpen, and I personally like the idea, but I didn't know that they had decided to do that.

#10 of 10: By Someguy (December 14, 2006 11:01 AM)
AZ Phil -

you have Marmol listed as the closer at Iowa. Are you certain about this, because I hadn't read that. I knew there was some talk last season about moving him to the bullpen, and I personally like the idea, but I didn't know that they had decided to do that.

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SOMEGUY: I'm not certain about any of these projections, but based on what I have heard, the Cubs project Marmol as a future closer (or at least a reliever) rather than as a starter.

While pitchers who are projected as future closers or set-up guys are often used as a starter in the minors in order to get them more innings (and more experience), I believe in order to prep Marmol for his expected future role, and given the quantity of young starters who will likely be in the rotation at Iowa, Marmol will be the closer at Iowa in 2007.

Getting him innings is fine, but at some point the Cubs need to develop Marmol's "closer mentality."

BTW, I also believe Ryu, Mateo, and Wells are more than likely future MLB middle-relievers, but because they aren't projected as closers, they will continue to get innings at AAA as starters in '07.

AZ Phil -

you have Marmol listed as the closer at Iowa. Are you certain about this, because I hadn't read that. I knew there was some talk last season about moving him to the bullpen, and I personally like the idea, but I didn't know that they had decided to do that.

AZPhil - you have one of my favorite players Scott Downs listed as a left fielder. The truth is the Cubs are loaded with left fielder why dont the Cubs try him at shortstop as you have suggested.

#13 of 13: By Rory (December 14, 2006 11:34 AM)
AZPhil - you have one of my favorite players Scott Downs listed as a left fielder. The truth is the Cubs are loaded with left fielder why dont the Cubs try him at shortstop as you have suggested.

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RORY: I take it you meant Scott Moore, right?

If you did mean Moore, I believe although he will be "based" in LF, he will play all over the place (LF-RF-3B-1B, plus some SS and CF, too), as the Cubs develop him as a Geoff Blum-type supersub.

The Cubs did the same thing with Buck Coats at Iowa last season, and I believe Coats will be (like Jose Macias was in 2005 and Frddie Bynum was last year) the Cubs multi-positional supersub 5th man off the bench (at this point, anyway, what with Jason Smith having been lost in the Rule 5 Draft), and that after a year of AAA--and if he isn't traded--Scott Moore will be a good candidate to take that job next year.

Now, if Moore gets an opportunity to play SS a lot at Iowa and demonstrates that he can play that position, he could be moved back there. But as long as Ronny Cedeno is at Iowa next season (and I believe he will be), Moore won't get much PT at SS.

I think it is far more likely that Moore will either remain with the Cubs and be developed as a Geoff Blum-type supersub, or he will get traded.

Scott Downs??

I'm sure he meant Scott Moore, but while we're on this tangent...

I remember Scott Downs as having some promise as a pitcher but I believe he's had some significant injuries that limited his career. My memory of him was the ptbnl in the Cubs acquiring Rondell White from Montreal in 2000.

Scott Downs Transactions:

June 3, 1997: Drafted by the Chicago Cubs in the 3rd round of the 1997 amateur draft. Player signed June 18, 1997.

November 3, 1998: Sent by the Chicago Cubs to the Minnesota Twins to complete an earlier deal made on August 25, 1998. The Chicago Cubs sent a player to be named later and cash to the Minnesota Twins for Mike Morgan. The Chicago Cubs sent Scott Downs (November 3, 1998) to the Minnesota Twins to complete the trade.

May 21, 1999: Traded by the Minnesota Twins with Rick Aguilera to the Chicago Cubs for Kyle Lohse and Jason Ryan.

July 31, 2000: Traded by the Chicago Cubs to the Montreal Expos for Rondell White.

November 29, 2004: Released by the Washington Nationals.

December 16, 2004: Signed as a Free Agent with the Toronto Blue Jays.

AZ Phil...did you say what your * and # meant?

Thanks for the depth chart post AZPhil. I've been searching around for some info on which prospects/suspects were going to be placed on Peoria so I can see who will battle the mighty Silverhawks. I hope you're right on Samardzija and Pawelek with the Chiefs. Does it appear that the Cubs org. now sees C.Blasko as a reliever or is he just in the pen to build arm strength?...and have you heard anymore on A.Guzman being moved to the pen as a potential closer? In reality I think Guzman, Marmol and Mateo all should be moved to the pen.

#17 of 18: By dave (December 14, 2006 12:05 PM)
AZ Phil...did you say what your * and # meant?

================================

DAVE: I forgot to do that. Thanks! I have made the necessary addition.

DAVE: I forgot to do that. Thanks! I have made the necessary addition.

Cool...the funny thing is that I refreshed this page to see if you replied, and saw you addition. At first I thought I had just missed it.

Good work, once again.

#18 of 19: By Bogey (December 14, 2006 12:06 PM)
Thanks for the depth chart post AZPhil. I've been searching around for some info on which prospects/suspects were going to be placed on Peoria so I can see who will battle the mighty Silverhawks. I hope you're right on Samardzija and Pawelek with the Chiefs. Does it appear that the Cubs org. now sees C.Blasko as a reliever or is he just in the pen to build arm strength?...and have you heard anymore on A.Guzman being moved to the pen as a potential closer? In reality I think Guzman, Marmol and Mateo all should be moved to the pen.

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BOGEY: I don't think there is any room for Blasko in the Cubs organization as a starting pitcher. If he ever does make it back (and he could just as easily get released out of ST), I believe it will be as a reliever.

As for Guzman, with his four-pitch arsenal, I think he is still projected as a starting pitcher. However, if he continues to throw a high-number of pitches per inning, he will have to be moved to the bullpen.

I believe Marshall, Guzman, Gallagher, Veal, Mathes, Holliman, Samardzija, and Pawelek (if they remain with the Cubs and continue to develop) are ultimately projected as starters, and Marmol, Ryu, Mateo, Wells, and Shaver (if they remain with the Cubs and continue to develop) will likely eventually be moved to the bullpen.

The jury is still out on Grant Johnson. I saw him pitch in the Instructional League, and although he has good stuff, he just keeps nibbling. He does not aggressively go after hitters like he should. 2007 will be a make-or-break year for Grant, as I think he will get just one more year to show he can be a rotation starter. If he continues to struggle as a starter in '07 (probably at Daytona), he will have to compete with guys like Matt Avery, Jesse Estrada, and Justin Rayborn for bullpen slots at AA in 2008.

Great job. I really enjoyed your article. Question - I noticed you had Colvin being double promoted. I know he came from college and not high school, but do you think this would be a wise move. He didn't exactly overwhelm short season A ball. I would start him in Peoria and maybe move him up after 6 weeks or so if warranted.

az phil, thanks ! comprehensive as ever !
were you channeling pat piper for today's headline?
dc

Sorry, one more question, You had Papplebon as a starter. Is this what they are thinking? I thought he was a two pitch guy with limited upside. You probably have seen him pitch, what is your view?

What about Ryan O'Malley? He signed a minor league deal.....

If you are a pitcher with Z at the beginning of your last name....STAY AWAY from all forms of computers.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...

do any of you all think it possible that seibu kicked some money back to boras, if a deal were struck? would this be legal? what could mlb do?

Grant has been really disappointing and you're completely right, he doesn't trust his stuff...really reminds me of Heilman's early tenure with the Mets, where along with Johnson had terrific control at ND, then the minute they leave they can't find home plate with a search party. Heilman turned it around but still doesn't appear that he's going to be the #2 starter that his stuff indicated he would be. I don't know if Grant's rookie ball instructors got into his head, but he doesn't look anything like the pitcher he was at ND..and I think most of it is confidence...although he did get sidelined with shoulder stiffness last season. Pawelek is actually even more disappointing. I'm sure you saw the piece in BA where he said that he came into camp last year out of shape. If these positional players slated for Peoria turns out to be accurate, it looks like the Chiefs might struggle to score runs this year.

hilarious jacos!

what do you think Zumaya's favorite song on Guitar Hero was? Ace Of Spades perhaps?

Probably something from Randy Rhodes' catalog

#22 of 22: By TJ (December 14, 2006 12:44 PM)
Great job. I really enjoyed your article. Question - I noticed you had Colvin being double promoted. I know he came from college and not high school, but do you think this would be a wise move. He didn't exactly overwhelm short season A ball. I would start him in Peoria and maybe move him up after 6 weeks or so if warranted.

============================

TJ: There are a couple or three reasons I think both Tyler Colvin and Matt Camp will jump Peoria.

First and foremost, I believe they are ready for Hi-A. I saw both of them play in the Instructional League, and the two of them (and to a slightly lesser extent, Josh Lansford) are head & shoulders above the other kids in the lower levels of the organization (it probably helped that both Colvin and Camp played big-time college ball in the ACC). Colvin made the move to CF without a hitch, and looked great at the plate. Camp showed improved patience at the plate, and he is also a good hitter (albeit without Colvin's power) and made the adjustment back to 2B from CF.

Secondly, there is nobody at Daytona blocking either of them. One of the reasons not to double-jump a guy is if there is another player immediately ahead of him at his position blocking him. But Davy Gregg had a disappointing '06 at Peoria and will likely not get promoted (or if he does, it will be only as a back-up guy), and although Robinson Chirinos will likely be going back up to Daytona from Peoria (he played at Daytona in '05), he also has no future in the Cubs organization (he will be a Six-Year Minor League Free-Agent after next season).

And thirdly, the Cubs have a history of double-promoting their better mature (played college ball) prospects and/or challenging them at a higher level. Eric Patterson went directly from Peoria to AA West Tenn (skipping Daytona), and Mark Holliman went directly from college ball (Ole Miss) to Daytona. Ryne Malone played at Peoria last year right after being selected in the June draft out of Florida State, and Nate Price went to Daytona after signing as a NDFA out of the University of Iowa. So if anything, I was somewhat surprised that Colvin was not assigned to Peoria after he signed last Summer.

Obviously, if Colvin or Camp struggle in ST, they won't get assigned to Daytona. But as of right now, I would project both to leap past Peoria and go staight to Hi-A.

#24 of 31: By TJ (December 14, 2006 12:48 PM)
Sorry, one more question, You had Papplebon as a starter. Is this what they are thinking? I thought he was a two pitch guy with limited upside. You probably have seen him pitch, what is your view?

======================================

TJ: I think Papelbon will be moved to the starting rotation, at least for a while. He seems to have the durability needed to be a starter. You can get away with being a two-pitch starter in the minors, you just can't do it in AAA or in the big leagues. Donald Veal has a similar problem that he will need to address this coming year, or else he could end up in the bullpen, too.

Jose Ceda is a really extreme case, because he has one outstanding pitch (a blazing fastball), a mediocre breaking ball, and no change-up. I suspect it is MOST likely that the Cubs will decide to use him as a reliever and just leave him there (which is why I have him projected as the closer at Peoria in '07), but it is also possible that they will have him remain in Extended Spring Training and at least try to either improve his breaking ball and/or try to learn a change-up, and then use him as a starter at Boise to get him more innings.

#25 of 32: By Super Hozey (December 14, 2006 12:51 PM)
What about Ryan O'Malley? He signed a minor league deal.....

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SUPER HOZEY: The Cubs re-signed Ryan O'Malley to a minor league deal after he was released? I wasn't aware of that. If it happened, it happened in the last week, because O'Malley was not on the list of Cubs players eligible for the Rule 5 Draft.

No O'Malley hasn't been re-signed...and though it's possible, I don't think he has much of a future even as a reliever when his BAA is .279 vs lefties and .285 against righties. I like his low BB rate but he just doesn't miss enough bats.

BTW, I posted this before, but for those who didn't see it or weren't already aware of it, OF Miguel Negron (released by the Cubs last month) signed a minor league contract with STL and got an NRI to ST. Negron is presently the hands-down MVP of the Puerto Rican Winter League.

MLFA OF Jorge Cortes (who spent eight years in the PIT organization and one in the HOU system, never playing above AA) was signed to a minor league contract by the Cubs (essentially replacing Negron), and Cortes will likely be one of the outfielders at Iowa in '07.

Hendry is really making the radio rounds...on Murphy's show/WSCR today.

Not much new ground covered with topics including:

He's on a better diet and exercise program. He's excited about LouPa and the new coaching staff but that's been overshadowed by all the acquisitions. No acquisition will block Pie when he's ready so no multi-year CF was a consideration. We didn't see Angel Pagan in CF because Pierre played every day but he implied he's an option if Pie's not ready (he didn't say JJones was a CF option, but it wasn't asked). He hopes to add one more bench player before spring training. Kerry Wood will be in the bullpen all year and he's not worried about what inning he will be used in as that will sort itself out. Jason Marquis acquisition was because he was a historical 14-15 game winner and 200 inning a year guy and they wanted (starters) guys that can pitch more innings.

What I thought was interesting though:

Hendry said Ryan Theriot can play all 3 OF spots (implying a CF option) besides the infield.

Asked about the extensive bullpen inventory, Hendry said all the young kids have options and we're going to have an inventory in Iowa which we haven't had before, of young arms that are all home grown guys.

RYAN O'MALLEY WAS INDEED GIVEN A MINOR LEAGUE CONTRACT and an invitation to the major league spring training camp after he cleared waivers.

His arm is fine and he started throwing this week.

Even though three MLB teams called him and told him he was invited to their spring training camps, apparently as a courtesy to the Cubs or as a matter of strategy they didn't claim him off waivers.

So O'Malley belongs on the AAA roster.

hendry was on the score with mike murphy over lunch-maybe a rehash of his interview with mike and mike from earlier:

he is feeling very well.
it is still 2 months until arizona.
murphy looks at the roster from bottom up-hendry says"very happy with theriot, ward, and blanco".
specifically hendry made mention of theriot playing all 3 of spots.
their goal for pitching was to get innings guys.
they will not block pie at all- when hendry, lou, and staff agree he's ready, the job is his, no equivocating.
agreed with murph marquis had a lousy 2nd half of 2006, but wanted the dependability of 200 innings. and went through the litany that over past 3 seasons, marquis has more victories than either zito or schmidt.
very optimistic on wood's health- next goal is to get wood pitching back to back days and 3 out of 4 days to prepare for life in the pen. innigs are not yet "assigned", that will all work itself out in arizona.

check Theriot's DNA fibers...maybe he's actually Ryan Freel's clone...or the illegitimate child of a Ryan Freel and D.Eckstein relationship.

hmm..milb.com has him down as a FA. When did he re-sign?

cwtp...have a link for the o'malley info?

I'm confused regarding Jeff Samardzjia - he's listed here as being in the rotation at Peoria, but he played at Notre Dame this year. Now, imagining he doesn't enter the NFL Draft, do the Cubs retain rights to him, or does he have to re-enter the draft next summer? And how is he able to maintain collegiate eligibility if he's pitching in a professional league?

AZ PHIL: Have you seen Jose Ceda pitch yet? As the offering from Todd Walker, I just keep hearing about his heater - but that's all.

Just as a review, the following MLFAs signed to minor league contracts have received an NRI to ST with the Cubs:

Jason Anderson, RHP
Koyie Hill, C
Ben Howard, RHP
Les Walrond, LHP
John Webb, RHP

INF Json Smith also signed a minor league contract with the Cubs for 2007 and had received an NRI to ST, but was subsequently selected by TOR in the Rule 5 Draft last week.

Other Cubs "in-house" candidates likely to receive an NRI to ST (albeit not yet announced) are:

Jake Fox, C
Adam Harben, RHP
Casey McGehee, 3B-C
Eric Patterson, 2B-OF
Carmen Pignatiello, LHP
Randy Wells, RHP

If the Cubs re-sign C Jose Reyes (non-tendered on Tuesday) to a minor league contract, he will almost certainly get an NRI, too.

It's possible (though less-likely) that RHP Federico Baez, 2B Mike Fontenot, 1B Micah Hoffpauir, and/or OF Chris Walker could score an NRI, too.

Also, a minor league catcher (probably either Chris Robinson or Tony Richie) could get a last-minute NRI if the Cubs feel they need an additional catcher to help catch the 30 pitchers who will be reporting to camp.

Now, imagining he doesn't enter the NFL Draft, do the Cubs retain rights to him, or does he have to re-enter the draft next summer?

The Cubs most definitely retain the rights to him, even if he enters the NFL draft.

how is he able to maintain collegiate eligibility if he's pitching in a professional league?

I have never really understood this. Why Samardzjia can play football and Bloom could not play at Colorado was always strange for me. The NCAA wouldn't allow Bloom to play because of endorsement deals. But it is very much a double standard.

#42 of 44: By yaric (December 14, 2006 02:11 PM)
I'm confused regarding Jeff Samardzjia - he's listed here as being in the rotation at Peoria, but he played at Notre Dame this year. Now, imagining he doesn't enter the NFL Draft, do the Cubs retain rights to him, or does he have to re-enter the draft next summer? And how is he able to maintain collegiate eligibility if he's pitching in a professional league?

=========================================

YARIC: Per NCAA rules, a student-athlete can play professionally in one sport and still maintain college eligibility in another. There have been a number of college football players who played pro baseball in the Summer and college football in the Fall.

What Jeff Samardzija is doing is kind of Bo Jackson-like, in that he has talked about playing both pro baseball AND NFL football, without giving up either. That's really hard to do! With NFL off-season mini-camps essentially required, and with the MLB schedule extending well into the football season, at some point in the future he will probably have to make a decision about which sport to pursue full-time.

dave, sure I have a link to the O'Malley situation.
It's not a big secret.

http://www.sj-r.com/sections/sports/stories/1...

#43 of 46: By The E-Man (December 14, 2006 02:13 PM)
AZ PHIL: Have you seen Jose Ceda pitch yet? As the offering from Todd Walker, I just keep hearing about his heater - but that's all.

================================

E-MAN: I have seen Ceda pitch in the AZL (Mesa) and in the Instructional League, and he does indeed throw gas. I also have seen him routinely bounce breaking balls (he seems to have no feel for them), and the next change-up I see him throw will be the first one.

He needs a lot of work, but I'm not sure he can't learn to control his breaking pitch better just by using it as a secondary pitch while pitching out of the bullpen at Peoria, rather than necessarily having to remain in EXST at Fitch.

Cubster:
"Jason Marquis acquisition was because he was a historical 14-15 game winner and 200 inning a year guy and they wanted (starters) guys that can pitch more innings."

Well over the past 4 years, Lilly has average 5.69 innings per start(683.2 IP and 120 starts). Not very good. Marquis does average 200 IP the last 3 seasons, but he also averaged 30 HR's over the past 3 seasons.

Thanks for answering my questions Arizona Phil.

#47 of 49: By cubswinthepennant (December 14, 2006 02:29 PM)
dave, sure I have a link to the O'Malley situation.
It's not a big secret.

====================================

CWTP: Thanks for the info. I will certainly add Ryan O'Malley to the Iowa pitching projections, although he might have a tough time cracking that staff!

And since he says in the article that he received an NRI to ST, you can add him to the list of Cubs in-house NRIs I mentioned in post #44 (above)

I'm guessing Zumaya was rockin out to "More Than A Feeling"

I was way off about Matsuzaka. I hope the Red Sox go bankrupt.

Weak......

Padres are making a $3 mil to $4 mil offer for Giles which I'm sure he'll take to play with his brother.

"He's on a better diet and exercise program."

good, now someone let hendry borrow a comb and maybe he'll look human by spring training.

its been kinda freaky watching him just self-destruct into a homeless looking fatass the past couple years.

good to hear that hendry thing about theriot and the OF, it really seemed like that's the direction he was leaning toward envisioning theriot, but its nice to hear...i like that direction for use, anyway.

ya know, in a market where a guy like mark loretta is passed around like he's worthless and struggles for 2-3m a year it helps to be able to play all over the field like frank cat. did and freel does...

A couple of dissenting views on F. Pie.

1) I think he's the CF. He may lose the job in ST, but it's his to lose.

2) I don't think he had a disappointing year at Iowa. His job was to graduate, and he's done that--four years in the minors. Having a high ceiling does not mean that you put up superstar numbers in the minors. It means you have physical gifts that will allow you to get better, longer than other players. It may be three or four years before he is better than other players. But then he'll only be 25.

Whatever happened to Luis Montanez? I know the Cubs moved him to the outfield. Is he gone from the organization?

Whatever happened to Luis Montanez? I know the Cubs moved him to the outfield. Is he gone from the organization?

Didn't he sign with Baltimore as a minor league free agent?

I got not problem with Pie being our starting CFer and batting 8th next season.

I also got no problem getting Rocco and letting Pie spend the next 3 years in the minors.

He would only be 24 if Baldelli (or anyone) played 3 years for us in CF. So I don't really buy into the argument of signing someone blocks Pie.

I say we get Rocco, teach Soriano how to play SS again, and have this as a lineup:
Soriano
Murton
Lee
Ramirez
Barrett
Rocco
DeRosa
Pie

That I could like! :)

(and yes, this is a joke. Soriano will never play SS for the Cubs)

I agree with you about Pie, Virginia Phil. I had to laugh when I read that Hendry wasn't going to block Pie with another player. That's exactly what he did last year with Pierre!

Pie's as ready as someone without a major league at bat can be. With 2000 milb plate appearances he's not going to get better at Iowa. Who does?! More likely they'll just mess with him like last year when they decided he should learn how to be a base-stealing leadoff man (Dusty's idea) although Hendry at first denied it saying they were just trying to get Pie more bats. Of course when Womack came along he bumped Pie out of the lead off spot in the order and that's when Pie had a drop off in production for awhile.

But Now we have Soriano to hit first and steal bases, and a hole in center field that needs filling. There's no reason to hold Pie back. He can hit 7th or 8th and play great defense with Soriano and Jones/Murton/etc. on either side. No pressure.

Padres are making a $3 mil to $4 mil offer for Giles which I'm sure he'll take to play with his brother.

Wow...that is not a lot of money for a guy with his overall production.

"Whatever happened to Luis Montanez? I know the Cubs moved him to the outfield. Is he gone from the organization?

Didn't he sign with Baltimore as a minor league free agent?"

Yes Montanez joins K.Patterson, Williamson, Leicester, Bako, B.Sing and F.Bynum as ex-Cub flops who will be wasting space on the Orioles roster and payroll.

Because he started so young the number of ABs Pie has in the minors is not as relevent as it would be for an older player. For once the Cubs are bringing someone along the right way. He absolutely could use more time in the minors to learn the strikezone better without 40,000 bitter fans screaming at his every mistake. He has shown more plate discipline and has a better chance to improve it further against AAA pitching rather than against the Carpenters and Oswalts of the world.

AZ Phil:
As for Guzman, with his four-pitch arsenal, I think he is still projected as a starting pitcher. However, if he continues to throw a high-number of pitches per inning, he will have to be moved to the bullpen.

That would be a shame. His stuff is overwhelming... if he could just located it better.

i have an idea - Trade Rich Hill for Rocco.

Me and Pinella, the 2 italians on the team would take us straight to the top - just like the 06' world cup! vivo italy!

now our outfield is Me, Sori in rt, and Jacque / murton in left(one of the fastest outfields around). and i have a cannon for an arm too!). When Jacque is a free agent, we will promote Pie and i will play right field.

Now our staff will miss Hill, but our staff still is strong.

Zambrano, Mark, Ted, Jason, and a 5th (Marshall, Wade, or one of the prospects).

Also, our lineup becomes considerably stronger.

lineup:

soriano
Me
Lee
Ramirez
Jacque / murton
Barrett
DeRosa (my italian bretheren)
Izzy

done deal! we have speed, power, youth, and great defense in the outfield, now go make the italian dream happen mr. GM. my bags are packed.....

is hendry in the hospital again?
first lilly. now marquis.
the thought's making me puke

oh yes,

we need another left handed stick in our lineup. power righties will have a field day on us.

rocco

oh yes,

we need another left handed stick in our lineup. power righties will have a field day on us.

rocco

I doubt that Samardzija will be a major part of the Cubs. he had another great year for the evil ND, but his worth in the NFL (he'll hit the big signing bonus) is going to be too big too pass up (pun not intended). He might take the Chad Hutchinson route (oh my god, I think i am going to vomit--bears fans), but the opposite way. Maybe like Danny Ainge.
It was a risky pick and not that smart, not unlike the Bulls drafting Tyrus Thomas because he is "long." Enough about other CHicago teams.

What scares the hell out of me about all these pitching prospects is the fact that so many of them get hurt. YOu can't blame it on Dusty and Rusty Rothchild (alhtough lord knows I want to)...so many careers interrupted. Will they ever model themselves like, say the A's, with one coherent philosophy at each level? Which reminds me, Mike Harkey as AAA pitching coach? Intriguing.

Is it me or is Daryle Ward a really great signing? This guy has a bit of Marvell Wynne (don't knock one of the Cubs alltime pitch hit leaders) or Thad Bosley. A great addition to the bench.

I'm serious. Any chance that they will dump cenendo in a trade and one of the 8,000 relieivers?

he was a 5th round pick, would anyone give a rat's ass who we picked in the 5th round if it wasn't samardzija?

anyway, latest I heard was that he was a 2nd/3rd round pick in the NFL which will not be nearly as appealing as 1st round bonus money. Plus, if I understand the contract correctly, he'd be walking away from a good amount of guaranteed money from the Cubs if he chooses football.

Pinella is of Spanish lineage.

Sorry pizan(?).

Why dump Cedeno? He costs nothing and he's worth nothing in a trade. Izturis will no doubt fall victim to one of his injuries and Cedeno can be brought up as back-up on the bench and cannon fodder for the inevitable simulated season that Mark Prior will be throwing starting around Memorial Day.

Rob,

Samardzija was basically our 1st round pick that is why they reached on Colvin so they can pay samardzija 1st round money. so it is a big deal that he might go pro in the NFL. As for the draft he will likely be the 4th WR on the board (Johnson, Jarrett, and Ginn should be above him. While we are on the NFL, Gurnee police had a drug raid on Tank Johnson's house today and found some stuff. The link is:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-...

i'm sorry Jacos (aka: Jack)
Pinella is very much Italiano - just like my friend mr. lasorda.

Free me and bring me to the Cubs. I love Wrigley.

Baldelli for Hill...it's a done deal says the TB house.

Salute

well yeah, I get that, but we were able to get him in the 5th round because of the NFL thing and we apparently got a pretty good guy in Colvin who would have went in the 2nd/3rd round. It's the MLB draft, everybody's a risk. And if I understand the contract, the Cubs don't lose much money if he picks football.

The Cubs took a chance on a talent, like everyone else does, he may or may not pan out, like every other freaking prospect.

Matt Bush anyone, Matt Harrington?

"#68 of 75: By rocco (December 14, 2006 04:41 PM)
oh yes,

we need another left handed stick in our lineup. power righties will have a field day on us.

rocco"

You don't watch the Cubs much do you? Power righties have never been a problem for our primarily right handed team. Soft tossing lefties are the Achilles heel of this team since I can remember.

Rocco, Lou Piniella is a Cuban-American.

Samrazdiarrhea claimed last year that he wanted to play both sports.

"Now our staff will miss Hill, but our staff still is strong.

Zambrano, Mark, Ted, Jason, and a 5th (Marshall, Wade, or one of the prospects). " Rocco

Any prospective staff that includes Mark Prior for anything but eight simulated games and a warm-up start at Peoria already has serious flaws. Add to that the king of the gophers, (and I don't mean University of Minnesota) Jason Marquis, two masters of the base on balls, Z and Lilly (love hitting that 100 pitch mark and getting into the bullpen in the fifth) and then a list of what's left... we have been down this road for two years. Those who don't know history are doomed to reapeat it.

Jeff Smard&@#ja:

When he runs a 4.7 40 in the combines, he'll quit football.

white men can't wide receive

Hitting robot-
http://griddle.baseballtoaster.com/archives/5...

Unfortunately they gave the robot Neifi's skills.

great comments on that robot link, my favorite from a fella named Greg Brock..

You know what you can't teach a robot?
Heart.

Call me when the Eckstein 3000's come out.

Jeff Smard&@#ja:
When he runs a 4.7 40 in the combines, he'll quit football.
----
To use a Chadism, "you don't watch much football do you Chad?" You don't have to possess blazing speed to be a good solid WR in the NFL. You've heard of Steve Largent, Mushin Muhammad, Keyshawn Johnson, Hines Ward, Sterling Sharpe, K.McCardell etc right? They don't have blazing speed either. They have these things called "Possession Receivers" in the NFL to complement the speed threats. Perhaps check out a Bears game sometime and you'll see they implement a Moose & Berrian combo. With Samardzija's size, speed and hands he's at worse an early second round pick.

Speaking of PIE, Carrie Muskat just put an article on Cubs.com

Pie could start Opening Day at center

By Carrie Muskat / MLB.com. CHICAGO -- Felix Pie may not be leading the Winter League in batting, but he's doing exactly what the Cubs want him to do, and could be the starting center fielder for the big-league team on Opening Day.

The article then goes on to paint an entirely different picture. He's playing great defense. He's skinny and worn out. He's batting eighth or ninth and facing left handed pitchers almost exclusively. He's hitting only .216 and striking out 20% of the time. Von Joshua is there with him.

For the record, PIE's strikeout/AB ratio last season was .225, coincidentally that's his strikeout/AB ratio for his entire minor league career. I don't see any worsening or improvement over time.

very interesting that he's only facing lefties...

rumor has it Theriot is working on his Center Field game. Interesting Platoon situation awaiting either Jacque or Pie Pie? Perhaps?

Excellent post phil. I was curious about Geoff Jones. I had seen he was picked up by the AAA team. Any info on him?

pinhead is itallian but grew up in a heavily hispanic part of tampa. he's fluently bilingual.

Rob/Arizona Phil -

What are the chances of the cubs platooning me w/ Theriot in CF this year? As a follow up, can the cubs pretty locked into Sori playing RF. I've got to assume Jones in center is not going to happen but no one is coming out w/ the real lineup here.

if Pie can't hit Minor League pitching or winter league pitching What chance does he have in the bigs?

none.

and what does that carrie girl know about baseball anyways? she grew up cheerleading for the durham bulls.

CRUNCH: What's with the "pinhead" dis?

PIE: "He has shown more plate discipline and has a better chance to improve it further against AAA pitching rather than against the Carpenters and Oswalts of the world."

I agree - let him earn a job on the team during ST. In spite of what MUSKRAT says, there is no need to rush him along and get into a Korey Patterson situation.

Right now, would the Cubs have equal talent in CF with JJones/TheRiot/Pagan compared to the "Old Man" in St. Louis, the Willy Tavares replacement in Houston, the Pirates .212 hitter, Ryan Freel in Cinci? I mean there is no Torii Hunter in the NLC, right?

Edmonds WAS the man, but he is a walking concussion.

BillC,

You don't want to have this conversation with me. And please don't ever use Steve Largent in any example. He is no longer relevant in football conversations. Him, Belitnikoff and Lance Alworth could not play in this NFL today.

Furthermore, here's my complete take on SMJDRATATA he may be good enough to be a professional football player. But he will never be a star and his earning potential will be much higher in baseball where he could top out at 15 mil per year and that would be if he was an all star free agent today. What will the market be like in 8 years when he's a free agent? Who knows.

But anyway, of your little list, Mushin Muhammad, Keyshawn Johnson, Hines Ward, Sterling Sharpe, K.McCardell, Sterling Sharpe hasn't played in over 10 years. Moose is slower now that he's older as is Keyshawn and McCardell (who blows). Hines Ward is not the fastest WR around but he's not slow either.

I watch plenty of football and I am a die hard Bears fan. I don't miss any games. So don't tell me how Moose and Berrian are used.

Try to find me a relevant example. Like say, Matt Jones. Who is enjoying mediocrity in Jacksonville right now. White guys are not good wider receivers.

"is hendry in the hospital again?
first lilly. now marquis.
the thought's making me puke"

You're a week late to the party.

Matt Jones is fast. He's bad because he's got a crappy attitude. He had it Arkansas and it hasn't gotten better now that he's a millionaire. A better comparison for Smardizja is probably Danny Farmer that played at UCLA or Billy McMullen if people can grasp the concept of comparing a white guy and a black guy.
I also think Smrdjzla's future is in baseball. Once the combine hits and people start running past him, then his stock's gonna fall. I think he'll still get picked on the first day, though. He plays in a "pro style" offense and produced so that'll talk a lot of people into taking him even if his 40 time isn't that great.

Danny Farmer - EVEN BETTER! Thank you.

"Once the combine hits and people start running past him, then his stock's gonna fall. I think he'll still get picked on the first day, though'

This is what I'm trying to say. He MIGHT get picked on the first day but only in the 3rd round. My guess is that because of baseball he'll fall to the second day.

Drew Bennett is a better comp. Smardza will be a cub. more money in baseball. he'll likely hold out for more cash and not show up for spring training till it happens.

boras will be his agent and he'll demand planes in the minor leagues and a that his posse gets x amount of free flights per year, along with a condo in chicago. aka: kevin brown II

"Why dump Cedeno?"

Maybe because he is and was one of the worst five players in the NL?

Drew Bennett is a better comp. Smardza will be a cub. more money in baseball. he'll likely hold out for more cash and not show up for spring training till it happens.

boras will be his agent and he'll demand planes in the minor leagues and a that his posse gets x amount of free flights per year, along with a condo in chicago. aka: kevin brown II

"CRUNCH: What's with the "pinhead" dis?"

my usual managerial respect. heheh...

i called baylor "opie"...i called dusty "dustbag"...i'll probally call pinella "pinhead" a few thousand times. nothing personal, really.

#88 of 94: By 5 (December 14, 2006 07:02 PM)
Excellent post phil. I was curious about Geoff Jones. I had seen he was picked up by the AAA team. Any info on him?

================================

5: Thanks for reminding me.

MLFA LHPs Geoff Jones and Nate Bland were signed to minor league contracts by the Cubs last month, and I will add Bland to the list of relievers competing for jobs at Iowa, and Jones to the list of relievers competing for jobs at Tennessee.

Jones spent the last eight seasons in the SD organization, but never pitched higher than AA. The two full seasons he spent at AA were as a lefty reliever, and were quite pedestrian.

Bland pitched at AAA Iowa a couple of years ago, but has bounced around the minors for 13 years with several different organizations (LAD, NYM, HOU, CUBS, and LAA), briefly surfacing in MLB as a LOOGY with HOU in '03 (22 games).

Both Jones and Bland are long shots to make their minor league teams out of ST, but you never know...

Thanks Phil. I played high school ball with jones. No one has really ever heard much about him. He is one of the first players from our town to play for a big league team(Pepper Martin is the only other one i know of.)

pinhead is itallian but grew up in a heavily hispanic part of tampa. he's fluently bilingual.

Actually, Jacos had it right in post #71. Piniella is Spanish.

From his Devil Rays bio...

Lou and his wife were born in Tampa, as were Lou's parents. His family is originally from Spain.

http://tampabay.devilrays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/...

Mustache does make this defense for Pie in her article:

"He does strike out a lot, and Joshua is trying to get Pie to go deeper in counts. Look at Detroit center fielder Curtis Granderson -- he struck out 174 times and batted .260, and got to the World Series."

See? Pie could be ready, cause Curtis Granderson also sucks.

...remove the 'also' there. Pie doesn't suck.

Don't worry about it, Crunch never really has a point to anything he just likes to hear himself talk, or write. Jerry Rice wasn't exactly a speed merchant either but I think he turned out ok. I guess Rice may be too old for Chad's world though. The NFL apparently formed in 1991. I suppose Jim Brown and Payton couldn't compete in today's NFL. What a joke.

yes joe c, i never contribute anything here.

never.

i never have a good piece of news or insight or offer.

you however add a lot. like, just this week you had that post where you bashed me. there was also that...well, i cant recall anything else.

have fun in the "community."

your butchered "insight" into the origins of Piniella's last name was particularly impressive.

Joe the NFL is not a place for slow white wide receivers. Did you compare Jeff Smjadadad to Jerry Rice? You're the joke.

Don't give me this BS. The NFL is faster and stronger than ever by 1,000,000 percent. Could Jim Brown play in the NFL? Sure. Would he dominate? No. Would Wilt Chamberlain have played in this NBA? Yes. Would he even score 81 points (like Kobe) NO!

"your butchered "insight" into the origins of Piniella's last name was particularly impressive."

yeah joe, i can tell it bothers you a whole lot.

saw your last post before this was also a jab at someone. nice track record. try jogging or something before you come take your crappy day out on the internet. or not...go internet.

I saw the 'Joe' argument and I got sad.

Then I saw that it wasn't me being talked about and I got happy again.

Let's be clear on the Joe's being talked about here. Iam 'The Joe' is the one who is loveable. Everyone else can be 'other Joe'. Sound good?

How about a comparison with Mike Furrey. I agree he is likely to go the baseball route, but there are a couple good white receivers, even today. Clearly the position is dominated by blacks, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be good just because he is white.

These arguments about Jim Brown and Wilt playing today are crap. Jim Brown was the best athlete of his day. If he were a young athlete in the 80s or 90s with more emphasis on weight training, diet etc, he'd still be the best athlete. Hell, he'd get plucked up by some private high school academy and have better training than he did with the Browns.

There is no center playing right now who could have stayed with Wilt under the circumstances I mentioned above - Wilt growing up in the same generation as Shaq. Wilt was a track star and one of the top three or four basketball players of all time. You really think Wilt couldn't score a lot in a league with no hand checking and Eddie Curry? Just insane.

Furrey is short. Smardjizla is tall and rangy.

Boy - we're getting some really "interesting" visitors now. Are they escapees from other blogs?

I noticed one moniker that I have seen in other places (wel, actually just one) whom always spews negativity. Oh well...

CRUNCH: how did you get "Opie" for Don Baylor?!

TBone you are entirely wrong. Jim Brown would compete in this league. But the caliber of player is better. Same with Wilt. In fact you are 100% wrong about him. There were only a handful of 7 footers in the league, now every team has two or three. Look at his number vs. Bill Russell. The leagues are better now the competition is better. More people are playing and the talent pool is richer, deeper and bigger.

AZ PHIL: What is the current salaries for AAA players? Can they make a decent living? I vaguely recall $70K+. Am I way short?

#116 of 117: By Chad (December 14, 2006 10:46 PM)
TBone you are entirely wrong. Jim Brown would compete in this league. But the caliber of player is better. Same with Wilt. In fact you are 100% wrong about him. There were only a handful of 7 footers in the league, now every team has two or three. Look at his number vs. Bill Russell. The leagues are better now the competition is better. More people are playing and the talent pool is richer, deeper and bigger.

______________

What if Michael Jordan started playing now instead of when he did? He would probably be as competive as he was for his entire career and make himself better than the next guy. I think that's what Joe C meant when talking about Jim Brown. I'll bet the guys who built the pyramids would be as good at training as today's athletes (even without the slave-drivers).

My bad, I meant TBone not Joe C

"CRUNCH: how did you get "Opie" for Don Baylor?!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opie_Taylor

yeah, i know its a stretch, but it worked at the time. i wasnt on TCR at the time that one was kicking around.

things i have learned recently from t-c-r:

a flat tax is good. or not.
white wide receivers, like anabolic steroids, should be banned from baseball.
having been stiffed by the red sox, dice-k was on a plane back to japan.
lou piniella has shed the yoke of his spanish heritage, and joined the ranks of italian-americans.
ronnie cedeno is an improvement over a replacement player- any replacement player.
and matt murton will not be (somebody's) platoon partner in lf for 2007.

c'mon hendry, do something audacious, like swapping some of your bullpen crowd for jake westbrook. or daniel cabrera. or vazquez. or tim wakefield. or erik bedard. or capuano or bush.
unless you are waiting for a christmas surprise for everybody?

Do the cubs have enough in there farm system to trade J. Jones, C. Iztuez and prospects to Texas for M. Young?

I don't think there are enough prospects in all the minor leagues to turn Jones and Izturis into M. Young.

And throw in Danks while their at it...

If Samardzija picks baseball--and if he has half a brain, he will--the Cubs system will REALLY be loaded with high ceiling pitchers 12 months from now. It's a near-certainty we get Brackman with the 3rd pick in the amateur draft. Take those two, plus Pawelek, Gallagher and Veal, and my goodness....

True...Damn it... Though I would love to see young in Cubbie Blue.

Now that the Cub's are pretty much done with their off season, how agonizing is this going to be waiting until next spring? What am I going to do in the mean time? Watch football? Blah. Listen to Terrell Ownes be a little bitch?

I don't like winter either. Best thing about this time of year is the drunken brawl on New Year's Eve. Oh yeah, and being with family on Christmas... yeah yeah.

Yikes, and I forget Jeremy Papelbon, and maybe Billy Petrick is healthy again, and then there are the "4A" pitchers in Iowa, Guzman and Marshall in particular still with high ceilings. And we have Matt Harrington, yay!

The Cubs system isn't as bad as BA has recently made it out to be. In addition to those pitchers, you could field an interesting high-ceiling team of position players too: Pie, Harvey and Colvin in the OF; Moore, Patterson, Dopirak and Fox in the IF. We only have a true dearth of talent at SS, and even there, Ronny Cedeno is young enough that maybe he eventually figures it out.

There is hope in the minors, don't trade them all away Jim Hendry.

I was looking at the line up for Peoria...sad...I am a season ticket holder...I just don't see how they are going to score runs with that line up.

Yeah, the Cub's minor league system improves simply by virtue of the Chicago Cub's signing legitiment starting pitchers and sending the 4A guys back to the minors.

If Samardzija picks baseball

----

Saw him pitch last year in Peoria he's for real. the Reds minor league pitcher sitting next to me stated that he was 96-97 and hit 98. The park had him at 92-93, but it was always lower than the scouting reports on "attheplate".

CWTP:
Speaking of PIE, Carrie Muskat just put an article on Cubs.com

from the article...

The numbers aren't dazzling, and Cubs player development director Oneri Fleita called Von Joshua, one of the Cubs Minor League hitting coaches who is on Licey's staff, on Thursday to find out what was up.

"His defense has been great," Fleita said about Pie. "Other than that, he might be going through one of the tougher things he's gone through, hitting-wise. When you hit ninth in the lineup and play down there at that level, by the time you face the starter, you're probably facing a left-hander. Any time from the fifth inning on, they play matchups."

So basically he's Corey Patterson at this point?

How about a comparison with Mike Furrey. I agree he is likely to go the baseball route, but there are a couple good white receivers, even today. Clearly the position is dominated by blacks, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be good just because he is white.
--
--
I wonder if chad was making the same ridiculous comment 8 years ago when there were only a couple non-descript black QBs. Chad in 1997--"black guys can't play QB, they're not slow & smart enough!"

My father said he heard Boras on the radio tonight, and he said the Cubs were still one of four teams in it for Zito. Anybody else here this? He couldn't remember what station he was listening to, but he thought it may have been WGN?

Could Jim Brown play in the NFL? Sure. Would he dominate? No.
--

How do you know this?

I am not even suggesting you are necessarily wrong.... I just find the level of you arrogance laughable. That is not fact... that is your opinion.... and unless you are able to bring back Brown at the prime of his career for a complete modern-day season, it will remain your opinion, and nothing more.

So quit making comments such as: "TBone you are entirely wrong." No one is right or wrong here... it's all 100% speculation. Quit acting like it is not.

It's all part of my schtick LNL. The funniest part of my entire absurd argument is that I'm essentially saying the NFL has only been around for a decade and anyone before then doesn't really count cuz their production can't be properly translated. On the flipside, my baseball IQ is locked in 1981 where things like OBP and WHIP are 'ickey' and irrelevant and guys like Cesar Izturis are one in a million. Therefore I'm right and everyone else is WRONG! When guys like me and Crunch make 50 posts per day that automatically means we're right!

Peace out

Bruce Chen in the Puerto Rican League through 12-13-06:

7 GS, 43 IP, 4-0, 0.63 ERA, 16 H, 3 ER, 1 HR, 5 BB, 51 SO, .112 BAA.

http://www.hitboricua.com/LBPPR/Stats/L%EDder...

The NFL is faster and stronger than ever by 1,000,000 percent.

This is true. Why just last Sunday I watched LDT run 40 yards in .0046 seconds. Peyton Manning threw a 30000 yard pass and one of the Gramatica brothers kicked a 50000 yard field goal.

"You don't want to have this conversation with me."

__________________________________________

Chad tried saving everyone the trouble here.

Samarmijizz will probably choose football if at all possible. Heard him in an interview last year... didn't sound too sharp and football is for guys like that.

I had also noticed Chen's numbers. Then again, Damien Moss is also taking that league by storm. I've always had a soft spot for both of them, and wouldn't mind seeing them as journeymen arms toiling in AAA. But it looks like that rotation is already full of people with, ah, er, a modicum of potential?

Samarmijizz will probably choose football if at all possible. Heard him in an interview last year... didn't sound too sharp and football is for guys like that.

must be nice having a degree from Harvard or Yale BJS. We'll assume you must have one for calling a kid who will soon have a degree from Notre Dame stupid. Maybe, just maybe, he likes football more than baseball. If he chooses the NFL he'll be playing in the league next season. If he chooses baseball he'll be riding beat up Greyhounds for the next 2 or 3 years. I'd definitely pound him for that.

boo-hoo, I was mostly joking, so to quote another TCR poster: "wipe the snot bubble off your face".

a kid who will soon have a degree from Notre Dame stupid.

I'm sure his superior intellect is what landed him in such a school.

I think it's only reasonable that I get to judge any academic pissing contest held at TCR.

Pissers, take your places!

(just kidding here. Been away all day grading papers, just wanted to sa a friendly hello.)

I have been thinking about how to evaluate the starting pitching that Jim Hendry has assembled for this year. So I picked out some NL division champs over the last 40 years. My criteria was (a) within the Cubs' division; (b) good, not great teams (throw out teams that blew the rest of the division away) (c) no fluke bad teams (e.g., 2006 Cards [83 - 78] or 1973 Mets [82 - 79]). In other words, division winning teams in the Cubs' division in an average year. I mostly picked the Cubs previous division winners, plus a few randomly selected others. My thinking was, take a very basic look at successful starting pitching staffs from the past and look for general patterns or tendencies. Is there a winning formula for a division-winning starting pitching staff in a typical year?

Teams I picked: 1984, '89, '03 Cubs; 2002 Cards, 1971 Pirates, 1969 Mets (and Cubs, for comparison).

Note: This is not in depth statistical analysis (sampling technique is also flawed). Just looked at the pitchers' basic won - lost - games started records; however, some interesting things emerged.

A couple of general hypotheses:

Division Winning Formula: One ace, one above average (or career year) guy, three average guys (or equivalents)

Quantity beats quality, i.e., is better to have several average starters than fewer high quality starters (see, e.g., '69 Mets vs. '69 Cubs)

1984 Cubs 96-65

---W - L (GS)

SP Rick Sutcliffe16 - 1 (20)
SP *Steve Trout13 - 7 (31)
SP Dennis Eckersley-10 - 8 (24)
SP Scott Sanderson--8 - 5 (24)
SP Dick Ruthven6 - 10 (22)
SP Chuck Rainey5 - 7 (16)
SP Rick Reuschel5 - 5 (14)

151 starts

1989 Cubs 93-69

SP Greg Maddux19 - 12 (35)
SP Rick Sutcliffe16 - 11 (34)
SP Mike Bielecki18 - 7 (33)
SP Scott Sanderson--11 - 9 (23)
SP *Paul Kilgus--6 - 10 (23)

148 starts

2003 Cubs 88-74

SP Mark Prior---18 - 6 (30)
SP Kerry Wood-14 - 11 (32)
SP Matt Clement14 - 12 (32)
SP Carlos Zambrano-13 - 11 (32)
SP *Shawn Estes-8 - 11 (28)

154 starts

2002 Cards 97-65

SP Matt Morris--17 - 9 (32)
SP Jason Simontacchi----11 - 5 (24)
SP Andy Benes--5 - 4 (17)
SP Woody Williams---9 - 4 (17)
SP *Chuck Finley7 - 4 (14)
SP Darryl Kile----5 - 4 (14)
SP *Bud Smith---1 - 5 (10)
SP Travis Smith--4 - 2 (10)
SP Garrett Stephenson2 - 5 (10)

148 starts

1971 Pirates 97-65

SP Dock Ellis----19 - 9 (31)
SP Steve Blass--15 - 8 (33)
SP Bob Johnson-9 - 10 (27)
SP *Luke Walker10 - 8 (24)
SP Bob Moose---11 - 7 (18)
SP Bruce Kison---6 - 5 (13)

146 starts

1969 Mets 100 - 62

SP Tom Seaver--25 - 7 (35)
SP *Jerry Koosman---17 - 9 (32)
SP Gary Gentry--13 - 12 (35)
SP Don Cardwell-8 - 10 (21)
SP Jim McAndrew6 - 7 (21)

144 starts

*Note: Nolan Ryan started 10 games out of 25 appearences with a 3 - 3 record as a starter. (Bit of trivia - he started & won the second game of a doubleheader on September 10 that put the Mets into 1st place over the Cubs for good.) *sigh*

1969 Cubs 92-70

SP Fergie Jenkins---21 - 15 (42)
SP Bill Hands--20 - 14 (41)
SP *Ken Holtzman--17 - 13 (39)
SP Dick Selma-10 - 8 (25)

147 starts

It was interesting how often the "one ace, one good, three average" -type pattern occured. Even the "pitching rich" '69 Mets had one ace (Seaver 311 - 205), one good (Koosman 222 - 209) and the rest average. I also note that the '69 Cubs had 3 'quality' starters vs only 2 for the Mets.

Applied to the 2007 Cubs starters: We have one ace (Z). Do we have one good/career year guy? (Lilly? Hill? Prior?) If so, we certainly should manage the three average (.500) guys. We also certainly have a good amount of quantity. By this (admittedly preliminary) formula, Hendry has gone in the right direction.

"Quantity beats quality, i.e., is better to have several average starters than fewer high quality starters (see, e.g., '69 Mets vs. '69 Cubs)"

Should read:

Quantity beats quality, i.e., it MAY be better to have more starters who are average than less starters who are higher quality (see, e.g., '69 Mets, 1984 Cubs & 2002 Cards vs. '69 Cubs)

now all the team needs is a late april injury where mark prior, fresh off the yearly extra month of rest to begin his year late, runs into d.lee sending them both to the DL for 30+ days. aram of course will tear a groin ending his season running over to help and izturis will tear a hamstring ending his season running over to aram.

I honestly think the Cubs will be fine in 07 **IF** they get one run-producing, LH bat. I am so on the Adam Dunn bandwagon, but now it appears the Reds don't want to trade him anymore. Too bad, because that is the guy we need. 900 OPS, 380+ OBP, 40 HR, and LH bat. Yeah, his defense sucks and he K's way too much, big deal, so did Sosa.

Dunn would protect Aramis, you could keep Jones and bat him 7th, sandwich Barrett between them. Wow. Cubs would have 4 guys with 40 HR ability (Soriano, Lee, Ramirez, Dunn), and three others with 20 HR ability (Jones, Barrett, DeRosa). Are you kidding me?

Murton, Marshall, Ohman and a utility player like Casey McGehee?

Adam Dunn. Yuch! Ugh!

VEGAS BRIAN:

Nice dad, but no.

All he said was he was talking to a couple more teams, he is the premiere lefty pitcher, blah, blah...

The announcer showed the usual ESPN graphic that asked for you to "vote" on "who do you think that Zito will go to"(@ESPN.com) and the Cubs were on there as one of the teams. As were the Yankees, Mets, etc...

Boras in his interview did not mention any specific teams - in fact - went out of his way to NOT discuss any specific team.

I had never seen what he looked like though, so that was interesting...

Adam Dunn may put up hefty power numbers and a very good OBP, but he's just not a good baseball player, and I personally wouldn't want him on my team. I don't think I need to point out his massive strikeout numbers--especially for a team that already has a couple of power-hitters who will rack up their share of K's. His fielding is absolutely ATROCIOUS. An outfield of him, Soriano, and JJ/Pagan/Pie/whoever the hell we get for CF is an experiment I don't want to try. I'm okay with putting Soriano in right--he'll have his share of errors, but I think he showed last year that he can play LF. He's definitely got the arm for RF, and good speed, so really what worries me is his relative inexperience in the OF, RF at Wrigley being a notorious sun-field, and the dimensions in that corner. But Dunn couldn't play an adequate LF in an instructional league OF, let alone the majors.

Dunn will be a very happy man when he gets traded to/signs with an AL team.

Ol Toothpick's next job...Baseball Tonight? I'd prefer sominex.

Nothing is signed yet, but Dusty Baker is close to a deal with ESPN to replace Harold Reynolds on Baseball Tonight.

http://tinyurl.com/y9ccou

Chad,

You look at Wilt's numbers against bill Russell. Wilt's scoring was actually up against Bill Russell, a fact unimformed sports fans don't realize. Wilt's teams could not beat the Celts and there was the unfortunate time Wilt took himself out of a game, but people think Russell dominated Wilt and it simply isn't true. He had better teams.

And each team has two or three seven footers? I don't have time to go through the whole league but here are the 7 footers in the Bulls division: Igauskas (sp?) Samb, Harrison, Bogut and Andriuskevicius. One per team. No question Wilt would have trouble hanging with them but then, he has been dead for several years.

Go back to worshiping RBIs and HRs.

Ryan:
Adam Dunn may put up hefty power numbers and a very good OBP, but he's just not a good baseball player, and I personally wouldn't want him on my team. I don't think I need to point out his massive strikeout numbers--especially for a team that already has a couple of power-hitters who will rack up their share of K's.

If you want to talk about his defense being attrocious, fine. It is. But let's not be silly about his bat, he's a huge power source and someone who can, in one swing, change a game. Put another way, he's not in the lineup for his batting average.

He's what Nick Swisher would be if Nick Swisher were a bumbling ogre in LF.

And by the way, me being the type that likes a team who emphasizes pitching and defense over offense, I don't want Dunn on the Cub's either. I just don't like people pretending Dunn is worthless with the bat.

Hating all this "Joe Bashing". I've taken enough shit for this moniker in my 45 years. Wish I could have had a name like:

Rob (reference to Rob G. NOT..I say again...NOT intended)
Chad (See parens above...MAN-love this guy, but not enough to take his name)
Phil (AZ PHil.....Gawwwwd, who wouldn't WANT this gujys name......for the love of all good things found on the internet).

I digress.

I've beaten on Crunch a few times.....he's beaten back.....point is, more times than not, he's right (I HATE myself for saying this).

ALL THESE OTHER JOE'S BASHING ON HERE AIN'T ME!!! WHEN I'M OUT OF MY LOW BI-POLAR CYCLEAND BEGIN BASHING AGAIN, I'LL SIGN MY NAME. STOP THE EMAILS TELLING ME TO BACK THE HELL OFF. ALL I DO IS READ THIS STUFF ANYMORE.

JOEY....FROM IOWA.

Sosa K'd a lot...he also usually hit much higher average than Dunn, and generally for 100-140 RBI's from 1995-2003, roids or no, and occasionally stole a few bases/threw a guy or 2 out at 2nd or 3rd...at least until the roids completely took over.

...Padres CEO Sandy Alderson was more than a casual observer of the Japanese transactions. In his seven years working in the commissioner's office, Alderson was involved in conceiving the system whereby the rights to Japanese players are auctioned off to American clubs. ìOn its face it doesn't appear that the system is working very well, since the posting system was originally designed to give all clubs equal access to Japanese players being made available by Japanese clubs,î Alderson said shortly after Boston won the rights to Matsuzaka. ìAt these prices, what we're left with is apparent access that's limited to those major league clubs that can afford these large upfront fees. I don't know whether the system is broken or needs to be reviewed.î Alderson was referring to the bids for Igawa and Matsuzaka...

Click Here for the full story.

#117 of 156: By The E-Man (December 14, 2006 10:47 PM)
AZ PHIL: What is the current salaries for AAA players? Can they make a decent living? I vaguely recall $70K+. Am I way short?

=================================

E-MAN: The minor league "Split Contract" minimum in the new CBA for players on the 40-man roster where it's not the player's first year on the 40 is $60,000. For players on the 40-man roster for the first time (like Rapada and Cherry), the "Split Contract" minimum is $30,000.

The AAA minimum is definitely less than the First-Year on the 40 "Split Contract" minimum, and I'm pretty sure it's $20-25K. However, once a player is a Minor League Free-Agent (MLFA) and can negotiate with more than one organization (like Luis Montanez was this off-season before signing a minor league contract with BAL), he could get as much as $30-60K.

A MLFA with MLB experience who is signed to a minor league contract with an NRI to ST (like Les Walrond) could get $60-100K (NOT guaranteed, however), sometimes even more depending on the amount of MLB experience (if he hadn't been released last ST, Jason Simontacchi would have made $200K+ at Iowa last season).

The AA minimum is even less than the AAA minimum (probably around $15K), and the Class "A" minimum is even less than that. One player who was has been in the Cubs organization for three or four seasons and will likely be at Peoria in 2007 told me he is HOPING to get $12,000 next season. Cubs minor leaguers who get selected to attend the Arizona Instrutional League get a bonus (I believe it's $3K), so all of the players in "A" ball have that as a goal. Minor leaguers with AA and AAA experience can make more money by playing Latin Winter ball during the off-season.

Guys who are still in "A" ball in their original organization (pre-6Y MLFA) make almost nothing. Unless the player got a decent signing bonus out of high school or college and can live off that, he HAS to work another job in the off-season, and their wife or girlfriend has to work, too. It's especially rough on players with kids, which is why you see players quit when it looks like they aren't getting anywhere, and why you've got to really love baseball to keep playing "A" or "AA" ball year-after-year.

The Colorad Rocco's?

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/sports_...

Article said DRays wants two arms and a ss for Baldeli.

Marshall, Guzman and Cedeno?

Stop laughing at me!!!

LA Times reports that Dodgers still looking for a power-hitting OF, and could offer as much as Brad Penny and Andre Ethier/Matt Kemp to get one.

Hmmm.....

#160 of 160: By Seamhead (December 15, 2006 10:50 AM)
LA Times reports that Dodgers still looking for a power-hitting OF, and could offer as much as Brad Penny and Andre Ethier/Matt Kemp to get one.

Hmmm.....

===================================

SEAMHEAD: I think a Jacque Jones for Brad Penny deal could happen. I don't know what additional players the Cubs or Dodgers would have to include, but Mark Prior and/or Will Ohman could be added from the Cubs end, and Andre Ethier (who would be no better than a 4th OF for '07 LAD) could be added from the Dodgers end.

SALARIES:

Jacque Jones
2007: $4M
2008: $5M
$4M signing bonus can be paid anytime between 1/06 and 1/08

Brad Penny
2007: $7M
2008: $8.5M
2009: $9.25M (or $2M buy-out)
$1M annual signing bonus to be paid on January 1, 2007 and January 1, 2008.

A problem that would need to be overcome is that Penny has a limuted "no trade," and I don't know how he would feel about Chicago or playing for the Cubs.

Both Penny and Jones are clearly being paid under market value, and because they signed their contracts under the old CBA, both would be able to demand a trade after 2007 if they get traded. To get Penny to agree to a trade to the Cubs, the Cubs could agree to NOT trade Penny if he were to demand a trade after next season, and then Penny could be FA on March 15, 2008, effectively giving him a "player option" to opt out of his contract after next season, something he does not presently have.

Bruce Chen?
that .6 era in Puerto Rico Winter League has to be worth at least $10M per year for Hendry. plus we need an 8th starter.

I saw Penny pitch against against the Cubs last year in LA (you too Rob?) about the time the season was over.

He had filthy stuff that night. Great sinker I recall...

I would think it would be unlikely that a trade would happen.

But, then again, I thought that getting Soriano would "never happen". Boy, was I wrong! But I'll happily admit it.

Thanks PHIL on the above salary information.

Definetly a young man's game until AAA.

A person can make more than this at Starbucks now, full time, with access to an unending caffeine stream.

The JJ/Dodgers thing is intriguing, but there are some problems. With Pie struggling as badly as he is this winter, I think we need to take the pressure off this kid and let him play in AAA all of 2007.

That's why I was interested in the Penny/Kemp package, as Penney becomes our legit #2 starter, and Kemp plays CF in 2007. However, Kemp is righty hitter, and strikes out a ton.

Ethier, while he bats lefty, plays left field and made a whopping 6 errors thre in limited play last season, so he isn't the answer in CF for us.

If this team is serious about winning a WS, we need to have 3 dominant pitchers for the short series playoffs. At his point, Z, Lilly and Hill don't qualify. Perhaps Z, Lily and a 2003 Mark Prior would qualify, but that's a longshot.

Suppose we offered JJ, Barrett and Ohman for Penny, Russell Martin and Kemp?

That would give us a top 3 of Z, Penny and Lilly. It would give the Dodgers a bit more offense behind the plate, and give us a young catcher who is not FA eligible after this season.

Seamhead, I agree with your comments entirely. We are still a no. 2 pitcher away from having a staff that can take us to the postseason. Penny's groundballs would work very well.

Actually I think Hill is much more a candidate for short series dominance than Lilly. Mostly because when Hill is on he has absolutely electric stuff, whereas Lilly is simply consistently workman-like (plus consistently average barely 6 innings per start).

Over the course of a long season, Lilly probably will be more consistent, but when he's good he's likely to not be as good as Hill when he's good. If that makes any sense.

Hell freeze over -

i agree - in a short 5 game series, or a 7 game series, if healthy, our staff can win us a world series. the three guys of zam, prior, and hill all have dominant stuff. prior obviously has to find it and hill has to continue where he was last year.

That being said, in a pitchers duel playoff, we need guys who execute. (the riot comes to mind). We also need left handed daily hitters to match up against tough right handed pitchers.

we are not in position with our left handed batters at this point. that being said, i would go out and get a guy like Erstad to man centerfield for 75 games. his numbers will hardly show excellence, but he is fiesty and a very tough out - (sees a lot of pitches, moves the runner over, and is great in the hit and run). he also plays gold glove caliber defense in center field.

keep in mind, playoff games are won by executing and small ball. (there is a reason david eckstein teams win.).

K -

You are an idiot. Erstad is a criple who is done and Prior is washed up. you obviously don't watch cub games or are not much of a fan.

That was way harsh.

I know this is not going to be popular, but I would rather have Jock than Erstad in CF.

Erstad can't hit, and there's no way to tell if he can even play center. I am suprised he hasn't just retired.

I agree that Lilly on his best day is equavalent to an average start from Hill.

Without Prior returning at least to his 2004 form, the Cubs won't win much at this point.

Oh yeah,

Hendry made be stupid, but he isn't Tim Purpura stupid. Three guys for a #3 starter?

Ersted on his terminally broken ankle does not have much goin' on now.

You can have him and Adam Dunn.

Actually, they could open a tavern together:

Adam and Derrin's -
Dunn & Done

The servers could hobble over with your food/drink order - then drop it.

I think Penny is a no. 2 and I like the security of another starter if (when?) Miller / Prior get injured and if Marquis is gash.

Hey Bob O-

i'd say you are an idiot--- i follow erstad and have done so for the past 5 years. granted, not often healthy, but if he is, he's the ultimate team player. He would be a perfect compliment to spell Murton agaist tough righties and give Pie transitional space & time to develop.

teams are built with situational players, guys that put the ball in play, move the ball over, take the extra base. Erstad is that guy. and he's exceptional in the club house. He is contagious.

so BOB the village idiot, you've been watching losing ball for soooo long that you forget the elements of winning baseball???

ok, go your route, play jacque in cf and watch our outfield misplay balls all year long. losing is contagious, as is bad defense.

TGIF Idiot.

Bagwell officially retires.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2...

While it is sad to see a great player like him retire. I won't miss him much playing against the Cubs. It would be cool to see both he and Biggio go into the HOF the same year, as I think both are locks.

K, I agree that we need a professional clubhouse guy who works hard in CF. But, in my view, I think a Vernon Wells type player is more what the Cubs need. And, for all his awful throws and terrible at bats against lefties, Jock does bust his ass everytime he plays. He might be the best we've got - especially given that Pie is not yet ready.

Wasn't Pie sent to winter league to concentrate on his defense and hitting left handed pitching?

The Real Neal:
"Hendry made be stupid, but he isn't Tim Purpura stupid. Three guys for a #3 starter?"

You mean kinda like trading 3 guys for a .330 OBP no armed CF?

And if I am not mistaken Purpura has gone to a WS already. I wish Hendry was that stupid.

Trading Ricky Nolasco seems to have been a massive mistake. Looks like the Rays want him for Baldelli straight up!

#133 of 188: By IFC (December 14, 2006 11:45 PM)

I wonder if chad was making the same ridiculous comment 8 years ago when there were only a couple non-descript black QBs. Chad in 1997--"black guys can't play QB, they're not slow & smart enough!" - No. But you are saying that white receivers are going to be all the rage soon, just give them time? NO. White guys are not athletic enough. The are either, slow, small, can't catch, or can't take hits. They suck. And there is no room for a white wider receiver on my team. Or running back for that matter. Why are there exactly ZERO running backs in the NFL that are white? (that actually contribute)

#135 of 188: By Little Nate Lewis (December 14, 2006 11:51 PM)
Could Jim Brown play in the NFL? Sure. Would he dominate? No.
--

How do you know this? I know this cause the game has evolved. I believe in evolution by creationist like you think that the game has not changed. Do you know that Brian Urlacher is bigger than Jim Brown ever was and probably faster? Brown never played against a guy like Urlacher. Butkus was AWESOME and probably the best defensive player of his generation. He dominated games. He wouldn't today cause he wasn't fast enough.

#136 of 188: By Chadball (December 15, 2006 12:10 AM)
It's all part of my schtick LNL. The funniest part of my entire absurd argument is that I'm essentially saying the NFL has only been around for a decade and anyone before then doesn't really count cuz their production can't be properly translated..."If you don't see the difference between the way football is played today and the speed of the game, then you are the one who is caught in 1981.

#152 of 188: By tbone (December 15, 2006 08:42 AM)

Chad,

...And each team has two or three seven footers? I don't have time to go through the whole league but here are the 7 footers in the Bulls division: Igauskas (sp?) Samb, Harrison, Bogut and Andriuskevicius. One per team. No question Wilt would have trouble hanging with them but then, he has been dead for several years. So you are telling me that Wilt played against the same level of competition that exists today? For real? You think that he faced guys like Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Shaq and such? You don't know much about basketball

Go back to worshiping RBIs and HRs.Just like the guys who actually are the GMs and get paid to run baseball teams

Brandon Stokley
Ricky Proehl
Drew Bennett
Matt Jones
Joe Juravicuis
Mark Boerichter
David Kircus
Mike Furrey
Tim Dwight
Jeremy Bloom
Aaron Moorehead

as a group resent your saying they are slow and unathletic. They are all currently playing in the NFL as wide Recievers. Apparently they didnt get the "Better learn to play Hockey" memo?

Whoops:
"I believe in evolution by creationist like you"

Should read, "I believe in evolution BUT creationists like you.."

Brandon Stokley
Ricky Proehl - Was just out of football and signed as a free agent
Drew Bennett - sucks
Matt Jones - sucks
Joe Juravicuis - slow and sucks
Mark Boerichter - sucks
David Kircus - sucks
Mike Furrey - sucks
Tim Dwight - sucks
Jeremy Bloom - skier
Aaron Moorehead - not white.

Top 30 receivers (by yardage) this year so far:

1 Chad Johnson CIN 77 1247
2 Reggie Wayne IND 70 1129
3 Roy Williams DET 69 1116
4 Donald Driver GB 73 1103
5 Marvin Harrison IND 74 1094
6 Andre Johnson HOU 92 1059
7 Steve Smith CAR 71 1025
8 Lee Evans BUF 67 1016
9 Torry Holt STL 76 985
10 Terrell Owens DAL 72 971
11 Anquan Boldin ARI 70 967
12 Darrell Jackson SEA 63 956
13 Javon Walker DEN 57 923
14 Laveranues Coles NYJ 75 921
15 Marques Colston NO 59 917
16 T.J. Houshmandzadeh CIN 73 894
17 Mike Furrey DET 74 857
18 Isaac Bruce STL 58 826
19 Terry Glenn DAL 58 825
20 Jerricho Cotchery NYJ 65 802
21 Antonio Gates SD 64 798
22 Joey Galloway TB 49 798
23 Plaxico Burress NYG 54 787
24 Hines Ward PIT 57 786
25 Mark Clayton BAL 57 763
26 Braylon Edwards CLE 50 763
27 Tony Gonzalez KC 60 759
28 Larry Fitzgerald ARI 56 743
29 Antonio Bryant SF 40 733
30 Keyshawn Johnson CAR 62 725

Mike Furrey is #17. After that the only Non-white guy is Tony Gonzalez and he's a tight end.

Chad...c'mon now:

Drew Bennett - sucks
Bennett averages 15.8 yds/per catch, 42REC, 662 YDS, 3TD while dealing with a rookie quarterback's ups and downs. He did have a 1000+ season 2 years ago.

Matt Jones - sucks
He's in his second year of playing WR. He is tall and fast, and has at least shown signs of coming around. Also QB issues, and missed 2 games due to injury.

Joe Juravicuis - slow and sucks
Slow? Sure...he's somehow managed to carve out a 9 year career as a #3 WR. 10 TD's last year.
Mark Boerichter - sucks
David Kircus - sucks
Mike Furrey - sucks
Say what you want, this converted safety has 74 catches, 857 yds, and 4 TD this year. Pretty solid numbers.

Tim Dwight - sucks
Ok...ya' got me. Still a good KR-PR when healthy.
Jeremy Bloom - skier
Aaron Moorehead - not white

The lesson here is, as always: Chad is an idiot.

You've proved nothing more than white guys can be 'decent' at best. Fine. So be it. I'll give them that. but look at my list and I'll take almost every player off that list over the guy you seem to like. Black guys are so much better at the WR position it hurts.

CHAD: Thank you for pointing out Moorehead Jr.. Emery Moorehead's mom lived a block away from me and I've met him several times. They definetly are not caucasion.

Why must you guys go down this path...?

Is it just baseball boredom?

Black guys are so much better at the WR position it hurts.

Sure...you can make that argument. But this absolutely does not mean that a "white guy" cannot succeed at the wide received position.

I would say that Mike Furrey and Drew Bennett are succeeding the NFL as good wide receivers. There is little reason to think that Samardzija could not do the same.

Isn't there a football forum where you guys can discuss this fucking black white bullshit?

thanks

Dave:

This is what the started the whole thing. Samardzjia may become a decent wide receiver, sure. I will totally agree with that. But I make my point to show that he has a MUCH higher earning ceiling in baseball. He will never be a top WR in football and never get paid much. He won't get more that 1 or 2 mil a year for a much shorter period of time. Where as I pointed out earlier that if he's a decent to mediocre pitcher we will get at least 6 - 7 mill a year, guaranteed money. If he's good, he'll get 7 - 12 and if he's really good 15 -20. All guaranteed. In the NFL, one knee injury and he gets 0. You tell me which is the smarter move.

Well, between Bob.trOll's name calling and Chad's racism, I don't know how much worse this thread could get.

Anyone want to talk about the pros and cons of the Choi/Lee trade?

But I make my point to show that he has a MUCH higher earning ceiling in baseball

Oh...no question about this. But this is true for almost any athlete who plays both sports. Baseball players make more guaranteed money. Sure...Peyton Manning is making more than Matt Murton, but for a guy like Samardzjia, who probably has fairly equal levels of ability in each sport, he would make more money in baseball.

With that said, athletes don't always make decisions based off of money - especially a decision like this. Most athletes that play multiple sports, meaning that they may be willing to take less money to play the sport they love instead of making more money to play a sport they just like.

And I think the Choi/Lee trade sucked. Choi could have been so good! :)

Is it just baseball boredom?
----
It's definitely boredom.

I'm bored cause the winter meetings are over. I'm bored hearing about Dice-K-Mat and the screwy Posting process; I'm bored hearing really really old fart Greg Maddux' influence on young pitching and how close Vegas is to San Diego. I'm bored reading about Scott Boras dining with Brian Cashman, ARod and Barry Zits-o. I'm bored reading about innings eaters with 6 ERA's and 6 IP non-inning eating pitchers. I'm bored reading about Dustbuster being on Baseball Tonight doing his best Harold Reynolds immitation.

I NEED a good old fashioned BLOCKBUSTER TRADE to talk about.

My racism. See, racism is such an ugly word. You cannot escape the connotations. But in fact there is nothing wrong with what I am saying. 1. Its true. 2. I am not painting the 'minority' (minority in quotes as actually the white wide receiver is the minority) in a bad light. This is how racism usually gets applied. For me to say that black people are all criminals is ugly, false and racist. But my point about wide receivers doesn't belong in that same category. So think we should use another term.

I am not painting the 'minority' (minority in quotes as actually the white wide receiver is the minority) in a bad light.

Wait...racism is not only against the minority. Racism is against a race - regardless of their prevalence in society.

well that was fun, sorry I missed all that. Consider this thread closed.

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