TCR Friday Notes

A very brief edition for various reasons that no one cares about... - The deals for Ted Lilly and Daryle Ward were officially announced today. Lilly gets a $4 million signing bonus, $5 million in 2007, $7 million in 2008 and $12 million in 2009 and 2010, which should make him virtually untradeable by that point. Daryle Ward's deal is for one year and it was rumored to be for $1.05 million. It does include a mutual option for 2008. - Ken Rosenthal speculates that the Brewers might make a run at Jeff Suppan. - The Cubs are looking for an assistant GM to help Hendry. As the article notes, Hendry has 5 "special assistants to the GM", but all are scouts. The assistant GM, much like Hendry under Macphail when he had the role, would likely help negotiate deals amongst other activities. This probably has more to due with Hendry's health problems, but if said new assistant GM knows how to manage a 40-man roster, that would be a nice bonus. - Speaking of Hendry, a Q&A with SI.com can be found here. Happy Holidays, if you're out Christmas shopping for me, a PS3 would be nice!!!
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Comments

My choices for Asst. GM: Steve Stone or AZ Phil.

Not necessarily in that order.

I like Steve a lot but am assuming he would have zero chance or maybe even less than a zero chance that the Tribune Company would hire Steve in any capacity.

Is Bagwell really a "lock" to make the hall of fame? I saw that comment in the previous thread here. He played 17 seasons, has about 2,300 hits, 1,500-1,600 RBIs, about a .297 average. Is tha really good enough to say the guy is a lock to get into the hall of fame?

well he should be.....

for 9-10 seasons, he was one of the best players in the NL, that's really all you need to know. Not to mention how much of that he did in the freaking Astrodome....

Is Bagwell really a "lock" to make the hall of fame?

if no steroid cloud comes out on bagwell he'll make the hof, probably not on the first ballot but likely the second.

Has there been any more comments on Cliff Floyd. There were rumors that he signed, but all I can find on other sites is that he's "close"

Like close to 300 pounds?

Rob, was the last thread closed due to subject matter?

Bagwell-

4 All-Star Games.

Rob, was the last thread closed due to subject matter?

Sure, and I'm in a bad mood. Mostly because of the name calling and how it was becoming more political than whether Samardzjia will pick football or baseball.

Best to put an end to it, if you have any issues please send your complaints here.

Interesting item from the Hendry Q&A in SI concerning one possible "benefit" from tanking in the 2nd half of '06:

"The good thing about having a bad ballclub is, the last two or three months of the season, we were off our regular coverage; there wasn't any advance scouting. We took all of our major-league scouts and a few of our other talented scouts and really went after, hard, a two- or three-month scouting project of all the free agents, all the five-plus [year] potential guys to trade for, guys with larger contracts that are five-plus guys that might be available. We just went about our business, probably from the middle to end of July on, with the mode of 'We've got to get better in '07.'

We had made some decisions already about ranking free agents and priorities and how to set up the club right after the season. We decided that, you know, we never have landed the best guy. We were going to go after the best guy. And our guys clearly felt that Soriano was the best guy. It worked out well from there. We had a good plan."

I hope it works out as planned!!!

Arm:
"Is that really good enough to say the guy (Bagwell) is a lock to get into the hall of fame?"

YES!

Hey!

How's it going today?

What's the hot topic?

The only person getting called names was me. And you know that doesn't bother me. But if you want to keep it strictly to baseball:

Um, I like Aramis Ramirez.

Bagwell lifetime .297 average, very nice.

Wasn't Bagwell on the Irod diet a couple of years ago when the big crackdown on roids happened?

For Asst. to the GM I'd be happy with either Logan White (Scouting Dir. LAD), Mike Radcliff(Scouting Dir. with MINN), Dan Jennings (VP of Player Personnel with FLA), or even Jim Fleming (VP of Scouting & Development with FLA).

For immediate replacement for Hendry (likely soon considering this run of stupid contracts and ignoring the club's obvious flaws), I'd take any of the aforementioned names and hire a solid elder statesman like TB did with G.Hunsicker as a right hand man.

or

Mike Arbuckle (Asst.GM with Phils)
He interviewed for the Red Sox opening before Theo Epstein was re-hired. Arbuckle is largely responsible for the farm system that has produced Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, Pat Burrell, Jimmy Rollins, Randy Wolf, Jason Michaels among others.

I'd have to look closer at the DBacks org, they had a facelift after Byrnes took over bringing in Woodfork as his A.to GM (Harvard grad in the mold of Epstein), J.Dipoto as Scouting Dir) etc. A lot of their great young stars are top draft picks like S.Drew, J.Upton, C.Jackson, C.Quentin, I could draft those guys. Carlos Gonzalez is really the only "find" I can think of so I probably wouldn't put their front office prospects on the map quite yet and they haven't shown that they can develop pitching yet outside of Webb.

I'd just like to weigh in on the proposed topic from the previous thread about the Choi/Lee trade.

Let me just say that based on the empirical evidence, Koreans simply can't play first base.

What, no love for white DBs?

gimme a break Chad, I let a lot shit go on around here, it was obvious where that was all going and it had nothing to do with baseball.

in other news, Brendan Donnelly to the Red Sox for lefty Phil Seibel.

and the Iwamura deal is done with TB...3/$7.7m.

Why you mad at me. Are you reading these posts?

It is a slow day---

Jerry Krasnick's Headline-

"Zito is going to strike it rich"

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/colu...

Thanks for the news flash.

Az Phil / Rob G,

Can you guys do a posting on the best guesses for a Cubs lineup vs. lefties and righties. Most importantly, address the OF situation w/ the cubs declaring that Sori will play a corner spot and Jones requesting a trade. In all seriousness, we have good sticks but the team is somewhat a fantasy team (all righties, 3 true LF's in the OF, lack of situational hitting and OBP, etc). A post would be most appreciated addressing the real possibilities of lineups come opening day.

Talking candidates for assistant GM...

http://tinyurl.com/boyp4
(unfortunately, I think it's a subscription site)

Look how far some of 2003's hot GM candidates have come (and a few have already gone). Moore, Purpura, Coletti, Byrnes...and our own Tim Wilken made the list. This was a Baseball America list from 12-9-03 of top 10 General Mgr prospects:

1. Dayton Moore, director of player personnel, Braves
2. Dan Jennings, director of player personnel, Marlins
3. Mike Arbuckle, assistant GM, scouting/player dev., Phillies
4. Paul DePodesta, assistant GM, Athletics
5. Tim Purpura, assistant GM/farm director, Astros
6. Ned Colletti, assistant GM, Giants
7. Gordon Blakeley, senior VP, baseball operations Yankees
8. Grady Fuson, assistant GM/scouting director, Rangers
9. Tim Wilken, special assistant to the GM, Tampa Bay
10. Josh Byrnes, assistant GM, Red Sox

The Next Wave (11-19):

ï Chris Antonetti, Indians assistant GM
ï Jon Daniels, Rangers baseball operations director
ï Mike Hill, Marlins assistant GM
ï Muzzy Jackson, Royals assistant GM
ï Thad Levine, Rockies director of baseball administration
ï Kim Ng, Dodgers assistant GM
ï A.J. Preller, Dodgers baseball operations
ï John Ricco, major league baseball labor relations manager
ï Brian Small, Major League Baseball manager of waivers/major league records

I predict a lot of solo HRs, league leading bottom dwellers in grouned into DPs and K's with runners in scoring position. Oh and also subpar defense and leading the league in walks allowed and fewest walks drawn...yet again.

That's strange Bogey, so it's not Dusty's fault?

BTW, our infield D is excellent.

"$12 million in 2009 and 2010, which should make him virtually untradeable by that point." Maybe, but maybe because his contract is so affordable you don't want to trade him. If he's a .500 pitcher, I believe there will be a market for 12million dollar pitchers in '09-10. Hell there's one now.

Why you mad at me. Are you reading these posts?

I'm not mad, you asked, I answered, you asked again, I answered again.

The most underrated pickup of the offseason so far is D. Ward. That's about as good of a bat coming off the bench as you could ask for. He can play first and OF and he's only 31. On another note, when it's all said and done this year I think the bullpen will be in the top 3 or 4 in baseball. It's STACKED.

Aubrey Huff. There doesn't seem to be a strong market for him as a starter, but as a part-time player, should the Cubs be interested? He would be the LH hitting corner OF Hendry claims he wants, would likely be better than Cliff Floyd, and would certainly be healthier. Plus, Huff can cover some 3B or even I imagine some 1B in a pinch.

Could be a handy guy to have around if he's willing to accept a part-time role. I'm sure he doesn't, but I don't see anyone ponying up to bring him in as a starter anywhere.

Comments?

I must be missing something on the love for Tim Wilken. Take a gander at the trail of mediocrity he left in TOR. Their top prospect this year is Adam Lind who is apparently so great that they had to move him off of 1B to LF because they already had a slightly above average 1B in Lyle Overbay. No overwhelming arms in the organization, McGowen has been brutal in his short ML stints, and his last 1st round draft picks with the Jays produced Russ Adams and Aaron Hill....I know he drafted V.Wells but he was an obvious top 5 pick...and while Wilken was Dir. of Scouting at that time, who knows if it was Wilken's pick or whomever was the Jays GM at the time..Gord Ash? Halladay was drafted in 1995 before Wilken. One star player (who was a consensus top 5 draft pick) developed means he's a top 10 GM candidate?...gehhh

Huff is definetly a better option than Floyd. The reason he probably hasn't signed is he's asking for starter money. But he is versatile, younger and better than Cliff Floyd. Problem is, Hendry has a man crush on Floyd.

"That's strange Bogey, so it's not Dusty's fault?
BTW, our infield D is excellent."

I've never been a Hendry fan so I never put all the blame on Baker although he was awful too. I've always referred to him as an overglorified bench coach.

D.Lee and Izturis are excellent, Ramirez is near the bottom of 3B and DeRosa has subpar range and has never played more than 29 games at 2B in a season at any level of his minor or major league career...so I'm not sure what sample size you're going on. Barrett obviously stinks behind the plate.

Rosenthal reports that when Vernon Wells is signed to an extentsion, they may try to deal RF Alex Rios for a starting pitcher.

How about a 3-way with Penny to the Blue Jays, Rios to the Cubs and Jones to the Dodgers?

Rios is a terrific RF, but doesn't have the power the Dodgers want. Rios could play CF for us in 2007 and give Pie some breathing room.

"Lilly gets a $4 million signing bonus, $5 million in 2007, $7 million in 2008 and $12 million in 2009 and 2010, which should make him virtually untradeable by that point."

Hendry did a good job there of burying the next GM. Because when Hendry is shown the door before the last two years of Lilly's contract the next GM will have tons of fun cleaning up Hendry's fat mess.

Ramirez is near the bottom of 3B

Woh....this is far from being true. This may be true a few years ago, but ramirez is significantly better than he used to be. I would say that A-Ram is probably in the top five, at least in the NL.

As for Barrett? Is he around average, but is prone to making careless (or just stupid) mistakes. So his carelessness would move him to a little below average, but he does not "stink."

Because when Hendry is shown the door before the last two years of Lilly's contract the next GM will have tons of fun cleaning up Hendry's fat mess.

manny...why don't you at least see how Hendry's signings work out before attacking them?

the Cubs can afford to take chances with big contracts. lets see how it works out before you start whining about it.

Why would the Dodgers not just want Rios?

Ramirez upped his game to about average at 3b last year, we'll see if it remains the same.

speaking of Brad Penney, someone out here told me about a Penny/Dunn rumor. It was intriguing to say the least...

For Bogey, Wilken left Toronto in 2003 and Adam Lind came after, Wilken wasnt the scouting director when the Jays selected Adams and Hill, it was Chris Buckley who's the scouting director for the Reds and by the way the comments made by Seamhead, right after Bogeys comments, about a player named Rios, well that was another #1 pick by Wilken and the Blue Jays in 99!

Rob: Rios ia a 15-18 HR guy, and the Dodgers apparently want a bit more power than that. JJ at 27 HR would seemingly be closer to what they are seeking.

I started thinking about Bagwell for the Hall when I heard he retired. He has always been one of my favorite players, but I don't think he should be in the Hall and I think he is comparable to Steve Garvey. Garvey I never liked for obvious reasons.

Here is the breakdown:

Bagwell - .297ba, 2314 hits, 449 hr's, 1529 rbi, 1 gold glove, .226 post season ba, a MVP, 4 all star games.

Garvey - .294ba, 2559 hits, 272 hr's, 1308 rbi, 4 gold gloves, .339 post season ba, a MVP, 10 all star games and a Roberto Clemente award (I bet they would love to take that one back).

I don't think either one should be in the Hall.

two blurbs on Wilken from BA, the first is the writeup from the list in comment #24:

Wilken ended a 25-year association with the Blue Jays this summer. The Blue Jays continue to reap the benefits from his tenure as scouting director as he helped usher Carlos Delgado, Roy Halladay and Vernon Wells to the big leagues and contributed to Toronto's unprecedented streak of getting 11 straight first-round picks to the majors. Many insiders believe Wilken, 50, could be in line to replace Tampa Bay incumbent GM Chuck Lamar.

Wilken comes to the Cubs after spending two years with the Devil Rays and 25 years with the Blue Jays. During Wilken's tenure in Toronto as national crosschecker and scouting director, the Blue Jays had 12 straight first-round draft picks make it to the major leagues. The streak included players such as Roy Halladay, Shannon Stewart, and Vernon Wells.
"I think the key was that we had good area scouts who not only watched the player on the field but watched for actions and how they handles situations," Wilken said. "We based our selection for the most part on the makeup of the player."

obviously a clueless brown-noser... :)

Bagwell is comparable to Frank Thomas, not Steve Garvey

He played through 1999 in the Grand Canyon and put up 40 HR seasons, probably would have hit 50 (or close to it) in 1994 if it wasn't for the strike. Not to mention an on-base machine.

Just cause he was quiet and not overly popular because he played in Houston, shouldn't knock him.

we shall disagree on Rios, but trust me when I say the scouts are expecting him to hit a lot more homers in the near future, he's still only 25 with a 6'5" frame. Trust me if they're trading Penny, they're not getting JJ as the bounty....

"Can you guys do a posting on the best guesses for a Cubs lineup vs. lefties and righties. Most importantly, address the OF situation w/ the cubs declaring that Sori will play a corner spot and Jones requesting a trade. In all seriousness, we have good sticks but the team is somewhat a fantasy team (all righties, 3 true LF's in the OF, lack of situational hitting and OBP, etc). "

FELIX, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO NEGATIVE? HEY, CANT WE JUST OUTHOMER EVERY TEAM AND WIN THE WORLD SERIES. WITH OUR LONG BALL BATS WE WILL BE THE YANKEES OF 2004,5, and 6.

...oh, good point, which is why guys like Theriot shoudl be given every opportunity to start. and a guy like Erstad in center would be a valuable fit..

Thanks for the inciteful email FELIX THE CAT.

Hello Ollie V
In response to your rumor re: Cliff Floyd

Cliff Floyd To Cubs Soon?

According to Jerry Crasnick in today's chat for ESPN, he remarked on the status of the Cubs' negotations with free agent outfielder Cliff Floyd:

"I'm hearing that the Cliff Floyd signing will come soon. He has some health issues, but he's a good on base percentage guy and a great clubhouse guy. He should be a nice fit for the Cubs."

"Wilken wasnt the scouting director when the Jays selected Adams and Hill, it was Chris Buckley"

Um the SD doesn't make the pick. Wilken was VP/AGM at the time of those picks, he didn't get a say in who the Jays drafted?..this after being the SD of the club for the prior 6 or 7 years. Rios has had one good 1st half of a season('06) in his career...a pathetic .262/.306/.397 in 2005...let's see how he does this season before annointing him king of Toronto. Also he was a top 20 1st round draft pick...not exactly a real reach or outstanding find.

Another comparable guy who was very underated is Al Oliver. .303ba, 2743 hits, 219 hr's, 1326 rbi, 7 all star games. No one mentions him for Hall and I also don't think he is worthy, but he was a great hitter. You could go on with these comparisions forever, and that is why there are some unworthy guys in the Hall. The reasoning is if so and so is in, this guy should in. I never bought that agrument. Why compound a mistake. I think you have to look beyond the statistics. My biggest criterea is - where they one of the top 2 or 3 players at their position for 8 - 10 years.

"Woh....this is far from being true. This may be true a few years ago, but ramirez is significantly better than he used to be. I would say that A-Ram is probably in the top five, at least in the NL."

Wow, don't let the stats cloud your mind Dave. Yeah he had a solid 2006 campaign, how did he do before last season? I'll help you out. .947, .939, .924 since joining the Cubs with a bottom dwelling 2.41 RF.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2...

Wells deal could be in place by the weekend....

MD HATER -

I guess no one else here wants to talk realistically. I'm a big Theriot fan and would be psyched to see him in the 2 hole for a bulk of the year (some 2B, some CF). Not sure if he really can handle CF but I sure hope so. Me and Theriot would be a nice CF platoon and Murton and Jones can play in LF until Hendry can pull his head out of his a** and learn how to assemble a real team.

(From Baseballreference.com)
Top 10 Most Comparable Players to Bagwell:
Frank Thomas (897)
Gary Sheffield (895)
Fred McGriff (865)
Willie Stargell (844) *
Andres Galarraga (843)
Ken Griffey (834)
Orlando Cepeda (827) *
Mickey Mantle (818) *
Willie McCovey (813) *
Duke Snider (810) *

Top 10 Most Similar Players to Steve Garvey:
Al Oliver (896)
Ruben Sierra (865)
John Olerud (865)
Bill Buckner (860)
Mickey Vernon (857)
Cecil Cooper (853)
Chili Davis (851)
Orlando Cepeda (850) *
Will Clark (848)
Mark Grace (847)

The former is a list with 5 HOFers and Griffey and Thomas who are likely to get in. The latter only contains one HOF and no others who will ever get in.

Bagwell had way more runs (Garvey never once topped 100!), more HR, more RBI, more than twice as many SBs, and more than 3X as many walks. And all of this came in less years and less games than Garvey.

Thomas will not make the Hall.

ramirez is significantly better than he used to be. I would say that A-Ram is probably in the top five, at least in the NL.

I don't know, you'd have to ask Matt Murton, who has to retrieve the balls that Ramirez dives for.

He doesn't actually dive for the ball, he dives toward it.

I love the guy, but he's not a good fielder.

#52 of 53: By Chad (December 15, 2006 05:55 PM)
Thomas will not make the Hall.

----

Okay, I really hate the White Sox, but why shouldn't he? The guy was the most dominate 1B for 10 years, and probably was Top 5 overall during that time. He'll hit 500 HRs and finish with an OPS near .1000--for his career. Now if you are referring to his issues with reporters, I can't see them being able to hold that against him when the numbers are that good.

Thomas will not make the Hall.

Yes he will Chad, name the bet.

"The Blue Jays continue to reap the benefits from his tenure as scouting director as he helped usher Carlos Delgado, Roy Halladay and Vernon Wells to the big leagues and contributed to Toronto's unprecedented streak of getting 11 straight first-round picks to the majors."

Not sure whom from BA wrote that but the BA database has Wilken SD from 96-00 and AGM from 01-03. Delgado, Stewart and Halladay were drafted before he took over...sure Wilken may have played a role in scouting these guys but so did 8-10 other scouts and development personnel...the 3B coach in Rookie Ball etc. Lets not forget that TOR was abysmal following the breakup of the '93 WS team and had a number of top 10 picks(including top 5's in the mid-90s). I'm not solely blaming Wilken for all their busts because he's only one cog in a group of 10 or more, GM, ASM, VP, SD, Scouts etc who combine on the picks...but I all I know is the last 4 drafts under that regime produced Negron, G.Gross, R.Adams, and A.Hill, and TOR didn't become relevant again until 2006 right after TOR started spending money again on Glaus, Burnett, Ryan and the Overbay trade which likely will prove to be a better deal for MIL anyway. I'll need to see some legit proof on the specific guys Wilken solely selected other than Colvin who was a reach.

"Thomas will not make the Hall."

___________________________

Absolute lock for the HOF.

Thomas is already in Chad. I'll bet you a signed Sosa jersey(probably can find one on eBay for a fiver) and you can get me a Samardzija NFL jersey:).

Bagwell is a no brainer too. He had one the best peaks in recent years and it lasted quite some time. 5 seasons of OPS over 1.000, a 1.200 OPS in 1994 and as Rob pointed out, he was one of the toughest outs in the league for many years.

#52 of 59: By Chad (December 15, 2006 05:55 PM)

Thomas will not make the Hall.
----

Rationale?

From Crasnick's ESPN blog: (have to be an insider to view it so here's the details)..."I'm hearing that the Cliff Floyd signing will come soon. He has some health issues, but he's a good on base percentage guy and a great clubhouse guy. He should be a nice fit for the Cubs."

I'm guessing he'd be the part of a left field platoon that faces righties. I don't like the idea. It seems like a great way to stunt Matt Murton's growth and waste a year of cheap service time. Floyd hit .266/.342/.423 against righties in '06. Murton managed a .295/.356/.426 line against them in his first full sesaon. The Big Murt also hit .319/.390/.522 after the break.

If Bagwell is a no brainer to the hall, then Thomas is a lock.

thomas is beyond a lock, he OWNED the 90s. straight up very little competition the most feared hitter.

1991-2000 he was a very quiet monster. couple blips of injury and loss of power and one year where he hit like .260. aside from that no one really wanted to see him at the plate.

Retraction:

I had his home run numbers off. He'll hit 500 homers and he'll get it. But not for much else.

Here's the reason, steroids or no steroids other players dwarfed him shortly after his best years. What I'm saying is that he'll get lost in the mix. But 500 homers is a lock to get you in.

Felix the Cat,

Thanks for the email. i agree. Theriot earned a look - whether it be at 2b, ss, or cf. he plays like David Eckstein (with more speed).

Eckstein = Winner
Theriot = (i'd like to see)

Except that the people voting will remember Big Frank and they will know what a great hitter was, how he absolutly had the most innate sense of the strikezone, could turn on a pitch like anyone, had power to all fields, hit blistering line drives, and in general was a fantastic hitter. Plus he has the stats. Of course, he is a whiner, and has had his share of injuries in the last few years, but when he plays, he hits. And he was a pretty darned good first baseman for a lot of years. And his DH years he also filled in at 1B quite a bit.

He is a lock.

Once again, he is only a lock cause of the magic number 500. If he had another bad year last year, hitting 16 or so homers and doing the same this year, then hanging it up shy of 500, not happening.

Chad:
"Thomas will not make the Hall."

What???????????

He will get 500 HR's, have a .300+ career BA, etc. He is a LOCK!! I think he will get in and if he goes on the ballot the first time in a weak year, he could very possibly make it first ballot.

MD HATER -

Sori
Theriot
Lee
Aram
Murton/Jones (Lefty/Righty)
Barrett
DeRosa
Izturis

frank thomas is a lock because of 1991-2000 (and its not like 01-06 has been trash)...go make a list of the most feared hitters in the 90s...then slim down by who had power...then go check out some ob% comparisons if you're still not impressed.

anyone who's got all that going for him isnt exactly a pesky mark grace or steve garvey.

500 or more homers is no longer a lock because as we're about to learn Sosa, McGwire and Palmeiro are going to get blackballed.

Frank's not gonna be lumped in with the poster boys of the steroid era... Bonds, Sammy, McGwire.

If he had retired prior to last year, he'd still be a lock. He was an offensive monster for very many years and was doing it before the 60+ HR juicers came along.

If he comes short of 500 homers, he is still a lock. He has been a fearful and good hitter for 15 years and counting.

Frank's not gonna be lumped in with the poster boys of the steroid era... Bonds, Sammy, McGwire.

Lucky for Thomas he never hit 60.....

Nope. Without 500 homers he wouldn't come close. I just looked over the last 20 years just to see how the voting went and no way. With 500 in without never.

Pie Pie,

That is the most complete lineup ive seen yet from all of the Yahoos on this entire page.

Hopefully Theriot can adjust to CF alla Chris Burke.

Theriot = Eckstein and will be on base when the big boppers come up

Go ahead Rob... try to be a wiseass.

You should know what I'm referring to. If you don't get it, then go and put a cigar out on your arm to shame yourself.

Thomas was always a massive man and never had any suspicious offensive anomalies. No one had hit 60 HR's for nearly 40 years... then 3 guys do it within a couple years of each other, 2 of them hit 70 or more.

Nothing wrong with that picture... put your head in the sand.

Thomas would/will absolutely be a member of the HOF whether he hits 500 HR's or not.

Was he the best at what he did for an extended period of time? Yes, he was. That's a guaranteed ticket to the Hall.

Wasn't even the best of 90s.

According to B-R.com here are his comps:

Jeff Bagwell (897)
Fred McGriff (859)
Manny Ramirez (848)
Gary Sheffield (837)
Willie Stargell (828) *
Ken Griffey (821)
Willie McCovey (813) *
Jim Thome (810)
Mickey Mantle (802) *
Larry Walker (797)

As you can see there are HOF'ers there and ones who won't make it. Thomas does not stand above this crowd.

wasnt the best of the 90s?

wasnt the best in what in the 90s?

and who was better? and if you can find better how many of them can you list? is there even more than 1 or 2?

and i guarentee you that short list will include frank being #2-5 if he's not 1st in those categories.

avg/ob%/slugging/hr/hits...not sure about doubles but he averaged about 35 of those a year to go along with about the same amount of homers.

btw chad, since you like the player comparisons from that site trying looking 2" above and check out:

HOF Standards: Batting - 59.4 (29) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 184.0 (49) (Likely HOFer > 100)

im not trying to crush, smash, or jump down your throat, but from 1991-1995 frank thomas owned the hitting part of baseball. people loved some griffey, too, but frank was pure fear.

Really guys, why are you even arguing this point with Chad?

Thomas not being a lock for the HoF is silly, and we all know it. But its almost a reasonable position compared to Chad's stances that OBP is a fad, RBI can't be team dependant because good hitters always have some RBI, and Athlete's can't be great at certain positions in sports unless they have a specific skin color.

Give the baby his bottle.

Rob, you've got mail.

Oh by the way Bogey, Wells wasnt in the Top 50 picks ranked by BA and Rios wasnt even ranked, also during that time period he selected or signed Mike Young, Reed Johnson, Casey Blake, Craig Wilson, Ryan Freel and 1st rounders, Billy Koch, Felipe Lopez and a host of others and Ill bet if you ask around he might have been one of the heavies in alot of those early 90's picks, just a hunch, but I guess you got the ass for him which I did also until I was clued in by a host of his followers.

I guess you all know this by now, but I hadn't read it. For those that haven't heard yet -- Lilly said this during the press conference held earlier tonight:

"Lilly [...] said his previous jersey -- 31 -- was going to be retired by the Cubs in honor of Greg Maddux."

actually bogey is right. Wilken wasn't responsible for drafting Roy Halladay, Billy Koch, Vernon Wells, Felipe Lopez, or Alexis Rios. Why bring up the names of Reed Johnson, C.Wilson or Blake? Two of those guys are without a job. lind is going to bump johnson to the pine.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospec...

Best player of the 90's is no question Barry Bonds and I don't think anyone would argue that point. After that, I take Jr. every time. And ARod too.

That being said,

There were many guys who were on par with Thomas. This includes Jim Thome, Albert Belle, Fred McGriff, Jeff Bagwell.

Hell as far as the 90's go, why not Will Clark? At least he could field his position.

Wells was also rated the #7 top prospect as an All-American coming out of school by J.Mayo.

Rosenthal is reporting that the Blue Jays/Vernon Wells deal is done. 7 years/$126 million.

msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6276146

might wanna check that cut/paste or a board op edit it to the link...not sure what's behind that link, but like some people believe about steroid issues, i got a damn good idea what i believe it is.

"There were many guys who were on par with Thomas. This includes Jim Thome, Albert Belle, Fred McGriff, Jeff Bagwell."

I'm not a White Sox fan, but if Thomas does not take another swing he is in the Hall.

None of the guys you mentioned were not triple crown threats outside of Belle and he did not do as long as Thomas.

Fred McGriff is a pud.

More beer, meat and cheeses!!!

I believe Thomas belongs on his stats alone (40 points higher BA than McGuire)but voters will feel good about themselves voting for him as the anti-Bonds/McGuire.

DAVE: FYI, Ramirez was top 5 FP in MLB (#5), in 2006. Per ESPN.

Hey, Dante. If you tinyurl the link you've got here, do the boobs get smaller, too?

Maybe Thomas' numbers do warrant his inclusion. Funny, though... with some guys I just get this feeling about that they're definitely HoF. I've never felt that regarding Thomas. Wonder why.

Rob,

Forgot to write down my FA picks. How do I find out how I'm doing?

Also, I hear Floyd's med reports weren't so hot and the Cubs might not offer a deal? If not we should keep Jaque this year, and deal him only if Pie is for sure ready.

just go back and find the thread you posted them on, Dallas. I started adding them up and entering the info, not quite done. A bunch of guys are still out there though.

um, Dante, comment #91 is completely inappropriate for this board. Please do not ever do that again. Consider this your only warning...

"DAVE: FYI, Ramirez was top 5 FP in MLB (#5), in 2006. Per ESPN."

Sort of like saying someone is a good hitter because he got a lot of singles. Juan Pierre is not a good hitter, and Ramirez is not a good fielder. Not that it is what you're saying.

Thomas is going to the HoF. Yes, he couldn't field but fielding only counts for CF,SS,SB and maybe catchers.

I've mentioned this before, but Bagwell has many of the earmarks of a steroid abuser-
1. Became a muscle bound hitter
2. Huge surge in SLG one season
3. Lived close to Mexico
4. Acne well into his adult life
And just like people say he wasn't that famous because he lived in Houston, there are rumors of him (and Biggio) being users in the Houston area.

There's only one problem with talking about Smardzja giving up football to play baseball. He isn't any good at baseball.

Oh yeah on Wilken.

Considering you're fans of a team that used a #3 overall pick to develop it's only ML starting position player in 15 years, maybe you should quit arguing the merits of Rios and Lopez?

Also, and I know I am grasping at straws here, if you've made some good draft picks and FA signings as an organization and you're going to promote a scout or crosschecker to director of scouting, aren't you likely to pick the guy who has been most instrumental in your success?

Manny,

Quote: "The Real Neal:
"Hendry made be stupid, but he isn't Tim Purpura stupid. Three guys for a #3 starter?"

You mean kinda like trading 3 guys for a .330 OBP no armed CF?

And if I am not mistaken Purpura has gone to a WS already. I wish Hendry was that stupid." End of Quote.

Yeah Purpura was a real genius to have the best top 3 of all time in his rotation. None of which he personally brought to the team. Actually, he didn't bring any major contributor to that pennant winning team in, he sat pat at the deadline and got lucky because Pettite got possessed by the spirit of Sandy Koufax in the 2nd half. Otherwise he's made the team worse over his two year reign, and moves like this one should ensure that trend continues.

Now as to the players. Hirsh was the Astros #1 prospect, Tavarez an established major leaguer, probably the third or fourth fastest man in baseball, a 2nd place ROY finisher who he improved his SB% his ISO OBP and SLG in his second year and he can throw. Think of him as Pierre with an arm and another year before arbitration elgibility. Buckholz, he's about the same as Mitre. All of this for a guy who neeed a humidor and a career year to get his ERA below 5.

Yeah, I sure wish we had Purpura. He's a sharp one.

Maybe Hendry can trade Matt Murton, Felix Pie and Angel Guzman for Kris Benson.

Best player of the 90's is no question Barry Bonds and I don't think anyone would argue that point. After that, I take Jr. every time. And ARod too.
---
Arod is a top 3 best player of the 90's huh. I guess only playing 50% of that decade doesn't factor into the argument then.
Griffey Jr
Bonds*
R.Alomar*
Thomas
Bagwell*
Sosa*
L.Walker
Sheffield*
Belle*
in that order and despite 6* of them being juicers.

from the Daily Herald...

Retirement plans? Newly signed pitcher Ted Lilly wore a No. 30 Cubs jersey Friday instead of his usual No. 31 ó a number worn by Hall of Fame pitcher Fergie Jenkins and future Hall of Famer Greg Maddux.

guess #31 will be unavailable henceforth

" And ARod too."

A-Rod in the 90's
148 HR's and 611 RBI's

Maybe 15 HR's and 61 RBI's does it for you, but seems a bit light to me.

Best players of the 90's
Bonds
Maddux
Thomas

Conversation done.

#71 of 104: By Rob G. (December 15, 2006 07:37 PM)
500 or more homers is no longer a lock because as we're about to learn Sosa, McGwire and Palmeiro are going to get blackballed

not sure i follow here, rob g. blackballed on their first vote? blackballed on all votes? blackballed permanently by mlb in the vien of shoeless joe and/or pete rose?

thanks
dc

Rob G.:
"500 or more homers is no longer a lock because as we're about to learn Sosa, McGwire and Palmeiro are going to get blackballed."

Well, if Sosa and McGwire don't get in the HOF, the the HOF is a bigger shame then it is already. Neither has tested positive for any steroids. If voters want to flex their power by not voting them in on the 1st ballot, fine, but for them not to be in would make the HOF all but an embarrassment. Palmeiro is a different story, he flunked a drug test and was proven to be a cheater.

Bleeding Blue:
"and Athlete's can't be great at certain positions in sports unless they have a specific skin color."

Well, that has some truth to it. How many of us white folks are in the top 100 fastest times ever in the 100 meter race? I would say not more than 1.

#104.
no way you can Griffey Jr be left off the list. Best all around player in the decade, well he and R.Alomar. In my previous post I was just factoring positional players but I agree Maddux would be the #1 pitcher.

Griffey just wasn't the hitter Thomas was. Take him out of that badbox ballpark, which not only increased his raw numbers, but gave the impression of his range to be a bit greater than it was and he is not quite as great as Sports Center makes you think. I'd probably put him #4, though.

The Kingdome was a Bandbox?

#103 of 109: By cubster (December 16, 2006 08:41 AM)
from the Daily Herald...

Retirement plans? Newly signed pitcher Ted Lilly wore a No. 30 Cubs jersey Friday instead of his usual No. 31 ó a number worn by Hall of Fame pitcher Fergie Jenkins and future Hall of Famer Greg Maddux.

guess #31 will be unavailable henceforth

=================================

CUBSTER: #31 is Daryle Ward's number, too. Maybe Ward won the Cubs trivia contest and gets to wear #31.

QUESTION: If the Cubs sign Cliff Floyd, will Lilly have to give up #30 (because that's Cliff Floyd's number) and switch to another different one?

And of course we've debated this before, but while the Cubs are retiring numbers, they might as well retire #3 (Kiki Cuyler), #2 or #4 (Billy Herman), #2 or #9 (Gabby Hartnett)--or maybe retiring #2 could cover both Herman & Hartnett, like #31 covers Maddux & Jenkins, or like the Yankees combine #8 for Yogi Berra & Bill Dickey, #44 (Phil Cavarretta),and #53 (Buck O'Neil) while they're at it.

Interesting bit from the SI interview with Hendry:

"Right after the season, when John McDonough became the president, we went down and met with our superiors at the Tribune Tower, and we made a decision that we were going to try to go after the best guy. The good thing about having a bad ballclub is, the last two or three months of the season, we were off our regular coverage; there wasn't any advance scouting. We took all of our major-league scouts and a few of our other talented scouts and really went after, hard, a two- or three-month scouting project of all the free agents, all the five-plus [year] potential guys to trade for, guys with larger contracts that are five-plus guys that might be available. We just went about our business, probably from the middle to end of July on, with the mode of 'We've got to get better in '07.'

...We decided that, you know, we never have landed the best guy. We were going to go after the best guy. And our guys clearly felt that Soriano was the best guy. It worked out well from there. We had a good plan."

And Hendry only used "obviously" twice in that interview. Maybe he's working on that.

And of course we've debated this before, but while the Cubs are retiring numbers, they might as well retire... #2 or #4 (Billy Herman), #2 or #9 (Gabby Hartnett)--or maybe retiring #2 could cover both Herman & Hartnett
-
hmmm...and maybe Leo Durocher (#2) bless his crusty soul.

The good thing about having a bad ballclub is, the last two or three months of the season, we were off our regular coverage; there wasn't any advance scouting.

And Hendry only used "obviously" twice in that interview. Maybe he's working on that.

You know he's working on it, you know.

"He managed like that kind of info wasn't pertinent since he was going to play his Neifi's, Maci-as's, Holly's, Shawn Esti, Dave Veri, Mike Remlinger as a LOOGY, lead off with CPat and use JJones against lefty's come hell or high water."

Well that stuff isn't advance scouting, it is the ability to find ESPN.Com on the internet.

I saw this on baseball prospective this week, we know Molina can't hit...although getting a timely hit certainly wasn't his problem in the playoffs. I guess LaRussa/Jocketty didn't worry too much about VORP from their catcher.

Bottom 5 NL Catchers, by VORP

Player, Team, EqA, VORP

Yadier Molina, SLN, .210, -19.7
Brad Ausmus, HOU, .216, -17.5
Humberto Cota, PIT, .148, -10.4
Danny Ardoin, COL, .173, -8.8
Chad Moeller, MIL, .166, -8.4

just announced on ESPN 1000 in Chicago:

White Sux traded Ross Gload to KC...for Andy Sisco.

Ken Williams continues his mancrush on bullpen arms that throw hard. It will be interesting to see Sisco more frequently (if he makes that staff).

gload fro sisco...so much for sisco the starter. wonder what he did this winter to make himself "worth" ross gload. sisco still has 1-2+ of very cheap years left and 4 of club control.

"#109 of 118: By The Real Neal (December 16, 2006 10:49 AM)
Griffey just wasn't the hitter Thomas was. Take him out of that badbox ballpark, which not only increased his raw numbers, but gave the impression of his range to be a bit greater than it was and he is not quite as great as Sports Center makes you think. I'd probably put him #4, though."

You want this one back? Jr. spent the entire 90's in Seatle. Where he between 1993 and 1999, playing in the King Dome he hit over 40 homers every year but one (injury). He had back to back 56 home run seasons.

Ken Griffey Jr. is/was/will be a much better player than Frank Thomas ever could imagine. Let us not forget that Griff won 10 gold gloves in the ninties.

I just cannot listen to you people if you actually think that Frank Thomas was better in the 90's than Jr.

Barring injury, Jr. would have gone donw as one of the greatest players in baseball history. And I don't care how many home runs Juciy Barry hits, Jr. would have eclipsed that easily.

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/_p...

damn...bagwell's looking rough.

Interesting article regarding Drew and Sox-

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/
view.bg?articleid=172329

Seems the BoSox may want to give Drew same type of deal Irod signed with Tigers that gives team termination clause if Drew gets hurt.

Also Newsday is talking about Yank/Brave/Pitts deal

Pitts-Laroach
NY-MIke Gonzalez
Atl-Melky

For those keeping track at home, here is the current Cubs payroll situation:

2007
SET CONTRACTS:
Michael Barrett - $4.93MM ($4.8MM base + $130K prorated signing bonus)
Henry Blanco - $2.15MM ($1.4MM base + $750K signing bonus)
Ryan Dempster - $5.0MM
Mark DeRosa - $4.33MM (Guesstimate)
Scott Eyre - $3.5MM
Bobby Howry - $4.0MM
Cesar Izturis - $4.15MM
Jacque Jones - $5.33MM ($4.0MM base + $1.33MM prorated signing bonus)
Derrek Lee - $13.0MM
Ted Lilly - $19.0MM
Jason Marquis - $7.0MM (Guesstimate)
Wade Miller - $1.5MM
Aramis Ramirez - $13.0MM
Glendon Rusch - $3.25MM
Alfonso Soriano - $17.0MM
Daryl Ward - $1.05MM
Kerry Wood - $1.75MM
TOTAL (17) - $109.94MM

AUTO RENEWAL:
Rich Hill - $380K
Matt Murton - $380K
Angel Pagan - $380K
Ryan Theriot - $380K
Michael Weurtz - $380K
TOTAL (5) - $1.9MM

ARBITRATION (Guesstimates):
Neal Cotts - $600K
Will Ohman - $800K
Mark Prior - $6.0MM
Carlos Zambrano - $10.0MM
TOTAL (4) - $17.4MM

TOTAL PAYROLL (26) - $129.24MM

***These figures do not count any possible incentive/performance bonuses & does not count the $3.0MM buyout of Kerry Wood contract***

And here is a rough position breakdown:

Catcher Michael Barrett
1B Derrek Lee
2B Mark DeRosa
SS Cesar Izturis
3B Aramis Ramirez
LF Matt Murton
CF Jacque Jones
RF Alfonso Soriano
4th OF ???
5th OF Angel Pagan
Backup IF Ryan Theriot
Backup IF Daryl Ward
Backup C Henry Blanco

Starting Pitcher #1 Carlos Zambrano
Starting Pitcher #2 Ted Lilly
Starting Pitcher #3 Rich Hill
Starting Pitcher #4 Jason Marquis
Starting Pitcher #5 Wade Miller/Mark Prior/Glendon Rusch/Youngster
Long Relief Pitcher #1 Kerry Wood/Wade Miller/Glendon Rusch/Youngster
Relief Pitcher #2 Neal Cotts
Relief Pitcher #3 Michael Weurtz
Relief Pitcher #4 Will Ohman
Relief Pitcher #5 Scott Eyre
Relief Pitcher #6 Bobby Howry
Closer Ryan Dempster

"Ted Lilly - $19.0MM"
"Aramis Ramirez - $13.0MM"
"Alfonso Soriano - $17.0MM"

lilly - 5m
aram - 8m
soriano - 9m

...also, signing bonuses dont count toward payroll. lilly's bonus, for instance, is being paid off in a few weeks, not starting in march.

09 liability:

aram: 15.m
dlee: 13
sori: 16
lill: 12
marq: 7 (assumed for average)
dero: 3.5

that's 67m in 09...notice the lack of Z in there...

looking at 80m+ in liability if/when/etc. a Z extension gets done for 09. pray for health...heh.

The White Sox just traded for Andy Sisco. LOL.

"aram: 15.m"

15.65

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi.shtml

oooo.

too bad its a pay service.

Crunch:
"signing bonuses dont count toward payroll. lilly's bonus, for instance, is being paid off in a few weeks, not starting in march."

I do count them, as they should be counted. Why don't teams just pay everyone is signing bonuses and not "salary"?

But yeah, it should be $9.0MM not, $19.00MM for Lilly in 2007. So drop $10.0MM for the total payroll.

well i dunno why you count them cuz it allows the team to add other players.

if hendry has 120m to spend and he doesnt have bonus money allotment, he's not gonna make a few signs that he made.

and where is the line drawn? does the 2-5+m spent on guys drafted in june count? this isnt the same pool of money as payroll.

i mean, what if the bonus money from this year is saved payroll from last year?

what if rusch is gonna get insurance on time missed and the team recoups 2-3m?

etc.

Crunch, nowhere did I find did people publish 2006 salaries for players and not include signing bonus. For example Rafael Furcal had $4.0MM base salary but, everywhere it shows him having a 2006 salary of like $8.7MM. That was because he had basically a $5.0MM signing bonus.

I am sure MLB uses signing bonus money in accounting when they look at luxury tax or teams would just easily circumvent that by paying everyone with a high yearly bonus and low salary.

I just watched Ted Lilly's introduction to the media in Chicago over at cubs.com. Let's just say that even Mark Prior would give Lilly a run for his money in the personality category. Very monotone and totally expressionless.

Crunch:
"does the 2-5+m spent on guys drafted in june count? this isnt the same pool of money as payroll."

I would assume this comes out of player development/minor leagues budget.

"what if the bonus money from this year is saved payroll from last year?"

It very well might be, but it would still be on the books for 2007.

"what if rusch is gonna get insurance on time missed and the team recoups 2-3m?"

In the very unlikely situation that they did take insurance on that contract, then yes, that would come off if paid in 2007 by the insurance company, but then the insurance premium would need to be added in also.

well, if you insist on cooking the bonus money you need to distribute it evenly over the length of the contract (4m bonus on a 4yr contract = 1m in liability according to the whole mlb lux. tax issues).

still, most organizations get their bonus money from funds separate from the usable payroll, usually in organizational funds used for player development.

"Give the baby his bottle."
---

Quote of the month.

Bonds is the only player who could be considered a greater offensive threat in the 90's. Griffey had big HR numbers, but he wasn't quite the complete offensive force that Thomas was.

Griffey only managed an OBP over .400 twice at .408 and .402

Thomas was way above .400 every year except once where he posted .381 ---- He also posted OBP's of over .450 in six seasons.

Thomas was a much tougher out and a more complete hitter than Griffey.

Crunch:

"http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi.shtml"

what is this?

----

go to a player page and click on "neutralize stats" for a quick demo.

its just a new comparative tool BR is working on that can put a performance in different eras.

go check out a late 1800s player, esp. the 400+ip pitchers, to see flaws in the method.

still, fun stuff.

That being said John, Griffey was a more complete BASEBALL PLAYER. As a guy who could actually field and run he was multi-dimensional. Whereas, once Big Turd walked it took two to three hits to get him home.

Chad,

"You want this one back?...
I just cannot listen to you people if you actually think that Frank Thomas was better in the 90's than Jr."

Thomas's average adjusted OPS in the 90's :171.1
Griffey's 150.4

To put that in context it is about the difference between Manny Ramirez and Bobby Abreu over their careers.

Thomas 2 MVP's, Griffey 1
Thomas 3 adjusted OPS titles (3 2nds, & a 3rd), Griffey 0 titles (1 2nd, 1 3rd)

So, no, I don't think I want to take that one back. Thanks for asking.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/equiv...

further explaination about PI on BR

its just a curiosity, really...

Can somebody restate or point me to previous conversation covering Rusch's status, please? Does he have to occupy a spot on the 25-man until after the 25-man is formally declared and open for DL modifications?

Thanks for any help.

Ignatius:
"Can somebody restate or point me to previous conversation covering Rusch's status, please? Does he have to occupy a spot on the 25-man until after the 25-man is formally declared and open for DL modifications?"

At this point, there really is no 25-man roster. A 25-man doesn't need to be widdled down till Opening Day. Rusch does take up a full spot on the 40-man roster though. He won't be eligible to go to the DL until sometime late in March. At that point, I am sure they will put him on the 60-Day and then he won't count as a spot on the 40-man. That is of course unless he retires, which is very unrealistic.

I was listening to John DeWan( from Stat's Inc) on the radio...

2006 top two lefty pinch hitters:

1) Darryle Ward
2) Ross Gload

It looks like Kenny Williams has reverted to his trading for Billy Koch/Todd Ritchie mode.

Did KC had their fill of Sisco too?

Is Don Cooper's gonna use the same cattle prod on Sisco that he used on Thornton and Jenks?

Cubster:
"2006 top two lefty pinch hitters:
1) Darryle Ward
2) Ross Gload"

I sure hope Hendry doesn't expect Ward to reproduce those career year numbers again. They were 46 points higher in BA, 66 points higher in OBP and 101 points higher in SLG than his career averages.

I sure hope Hendry doesn't expect Ward to reproduce those career year numbers again.

All I hope is that Ward as a pinch hitter makes Mabry a distant memory

Interesting according baseball-reference.com new stats, Sosa hit 50.3% of his HR's (296 of 588) when the score was within 1 run or tied and 77.4% of HR's (455 of 588) when the score was with 3 runs or less or tied.

That doesn't seem like numbers of a guy who only hit HR's when the game was a blowout.

Cubster:
"All I hope is that Ward as a pinch hitter makes Mabry a distant memory"

It will truly be hard to much worse than Mabry last year. But he had done horrible the previous year too, so I don't know if it should of been a huge shock. But I will go out on a limb and say he will put up better stats than Mabry last year...:)

"Interesting according baseball-reference.com new stats, Sosa hit 50.3% of his HR's (296 of 588) when the score was within 1 run or tied and 77.4% of HR's (455 of 588) when the score was with 3 runs or less or tied.

That doesn't seem like numbers of a guy who only hit HR's when the game was a blowout."

Bonds #'s 54% 84%
Palmeiro 53% 75%

If you really want to get down to it, you'd probably find that it's more a function of where they bat in the lineup (how often they bat in the first inning), than anything else.

REal Neal:
"If you really want to get down to it, you'd probably find that it's more a function of where they bat in the lineup (how often they bat in the first inning), than anything else."

That would be a factor. Or how good or bad the team is, might also be a factor. I am sure there are a few others too. I just always found it funny when people bash Sosa saying he hit a ton of meaningless HR's.

Neal,

You still want that one back? The one I was refering to was where you called the King Dome a band box.

People let their Sosa hate get in the way of reality. They will only believe what fits their version of reality. I call it the Dan Rather Syndrome, "Fake but accurate."

In the absence of truth, the lie becomes fact.

Are you confusing the Kingdome and Safeco? I don't get it.

#143 of 150: By ignatius (December 16, 2006 03:51 PM)
Can somebody restate or point me to previous conversation covering Rusch's status, please? Does he have to occupy a spot on the 25-man until after the 25-man is formally declared and open for DL modifications?

=====================================

IGNATIUS: Glendon Rusch (or any player) can be placed on the 60-day DL during Spring Training (but no earlier than March 1st), and starting with the date he is placed on the 60-day DL, he will no longer count against his club's 40-man roster.

Players can also be placed on the 15-day DL during Spring Training (but no earlier than ten days prior to the start of the regular season).

So to answer your question, the Cubs do NOT have to place Rusch on their Opening Day 25-man roster before they move him to the DL.

No the Kingdome. It was no bandbox. At worst average.

if you use BR.com's park factors (and there's no real perfect science to it), the Kingdome was neutral, slighty above average for most years.

Thomas was the better hitter, Griffey was more valuable (or at least as valuable) because of his glove and being a centerfielder...

From BP Unfiltered:

ìCheck this out: Andy Sisco, the 6′9″ kid from Eastern Washington who pitches for the Royals, was just cut by Mazatlan. He was pitching well enough, however the team director saw Sisco munching on a couple of tacos in the stadium concourseÖduring the first inning of the game. Apparently, he showed up in the dugout sometime in the second, but his fate was sealed.

ìWhat a bonehead! Hadnít he been down there long enough to figure they take the game a whole lot more seriously in Mazatlan than they do in Omaha? Hope he got his tacos to go.î

Kingdome:

Center 405 feet
Right Center 352
Right 312

Comiskey
Center 409
Left Center 382
Left 347

Bandbox = Small, like the band at an opera house sits in.

Bandbox def: being unlike the Kingdome.

Griffey was a far better player all around.

That's why I like you, Chad. You never let the facts get in the way of what you know.

Carlos-

What did I say about the tacos stands business going up with Sisco in town?

Sosa meaningless homer myth-
It's only thing that White Sox fan had to hang on to when he started to hit.

I like to point out Thome's homers in 2006 seem to extend 7 run leads to 8. Can you check that out Manny?

Yeah, Jac -- I owe you an apology. I guess I'm still too paranoid about all things Mexican.

OK, how about signing Aubrey Huff and Cliff Floyd, using Jones in the fore-mentioned 3-way trade but with the Cubs acquiring Brad Penny. Use Huff, Floyd and Murton in the corner OF spots whatever way would work best. Penny would make the rotation look a lot more formidable. Huff and Floyd plus Murton gives options, power enough to cover for Jones's loss. By the way, Floyd's always been tailor-made for the Wrigley power alleys. Also have to say, though, I don't know what more anyone realistically could have expected offensively than what Jacques gave the Cubs last year.

From Buster Olney and The Times, via ESPN:

"A three-team trade reportedly is in the works that would send outfielder Melky Cabrera from the New York Yankees to the Atlanta Braves.

The deal, an unnamed baseball official told the New York Times, also would send reliever Mike Gonzalez from the Pittsburgh Pirates to the Yankees, and first baseman Adam LaRoche from the Braves to the Pirates."

What the fuck are the Braves thinking? LaRoche for Gonzalez is decent enough, but LaRoche for Melky?

No Neal I actually looked it up.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php...

"By reputation the old parks in those cities were hitters' parks, but let's look at the numbers. The Kingdome (100.7 park factor) was very average its last six full seasons:

1993: 100
1994: 102
1995: 103
1996: 100
1997: 99
1998: 100"

But hey, its only Baseball Prospectus.

Park factors for sluggers with no RH vs LH component= not too good.

"What the fuck are the Braves thinking? LaRoche for Gonzalez is decent enough, but LaRoche for Melky?"

They're thinking the D-Rays are being a bit too greedy and are trying to get leverage on Baldelli by floating trade rumors?

jacos:
"I like to point out Thome's homers in 2006 seem to extend 7 run leads to 8. Can you check that out Manny?"

In 2006 Thome's HR breakdown was:
17 HR's (40.5%) with the game within 1 run or tied.
27 HR's (64.3%) with the game within 3 runs or tied.
8 HR's (19%) with the game within 4 or more runs.

Not very "clutch" for Thome.

sorry, that last stat should say just "more than 4 runs."

"#167 of 169: By The Real Neal (December 16, 2006 06:59 PM)
Park factors for sluggers with no RH vs LH component= not too good."

Take it up with BP. B-R has the same stats. I take their word over yours. Unless you have some better stats, of course. But until then...

You don't have to take my word Chad, you can find in a thousand places that Griffey is a left handed hitter. Or are you taking their word that ballparks treat all hitters the same, regardless of from what side they bat from?

Don't change the argument cause you are wrong. Stick to what this is all about. You called the King Dome a band box. I said it wasn't. BP backed me up. Next.

To all you siscophiles...Andrew Sisco has been traded by the Royals to the White Sox for Ross Gload. Not exactly what anyone resembling a 'top prospect' would go for.

He's getting closer to Javier Martinez territory every day. When will people start to realize that losing a player in the Rule V draft almost never matters?

You have Clemente, George Bell and Johan Santana and then 1,000 guys who never did anything.

I agree with Chad on Thomas and Griffey. I can't imagine anyone thinking Thomas is a better ballplayer than Griffey. Are you sure you Chicago guys aren't being homers on this one?

Center 405 feet
Right Center 352
Right 312

Of course those are the distances to the 23 foot high wall in right and right center.

I'm sure that had no affect on why the park played neutral despite having relatively short distances to the fence.

Re: 144

Manny--

I think you were looking for "whittled." "Widdled" is what the poodle used to do on the carpet. Although as a team, the Cubs have done more than their share of that, too, over the years. :)

"To all you siscophiles...Andrew Sisco has been traded by the Royals to the White Sox for Ross Gload."

PLEASE LOOK AT OTHER POSTS BEFORE POSTING OLD NEWS! Thank You.

That's Funny, Carlos!

Maybe he needed to order Tacos de cabesas as he's obviously not too bright!

"In the absence of truth, the lie becomes fact." - MikeC

I prefer the Donald Rumsfeld Syndrome but I get your point.

Maybe a Cub fan will take Andy Sisco to that place where that Sox fan took Sammy Sosa. And he will buy Sisco one of those special tacos. We can finally get our revenge.

I'm too lazy to file back through the last 180 comments of arguing about the Kingdome to see if anybody already posted this. Hell, it might have even been from three days ago. I don't really care.

Our favorite cubs.com beat writer has a lovely post about the prospects of Pie playing center in 2007.

http://tinyurl.com/v6aky

When I say lovely, I mean she punched the keyboard a few times, a few words randomly came out, and it turned out to be a 1,000 words with absolutely no freaking point at all.

"Stick to what this is all about. You called the King Dome a band box. I said it wasn't. BP backed me up."

I didn't call the 'King Dome' anything, as there is no such place. If you cannot even spell the name of the ballparks, you're opinion doesn't count for anything. How's that for application of Chadelian logic?

Chad try, for once, not to be so small-minded.

When you look at one number for a park factor that encompasses all batting elements for a park: how much foul ground it has, how high the walls are, how the wind plays, how fast and hard the infield is etc. But if we're talking about how it affects one player (and that is what we are doing here, btw) you have to look at how that park affected his performance. If the outfield is small (and I will allow to straight away center the Kingdome isn't), that allows the outfielder to get to a higher % of balls in play. It also allows them to make more 'spectacular' catches, because they can get to the walls quicker (assuming they are playing the hitter and not the walls). The Kingdome was short to right center, making it easier for Griffey to make catches against the wall, and likewise making it easier to hit balls over and against the wall. That also allows the right fielder to play closer to the center fielder (Buhner was no gazelle as I recall). Some outfields are shaped more like an inverted V and some more like an in inverted U. The Kingdome was a V. People often refer to Minute Maid as a bandbox; even its nickname is a pun on the phrase. Minute Maid is 435 to dead center.

Take a look at this link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfacto...

PNC Park, for instance had a park factor of '100' but a HR factor of only .822. (I cannot find published L/R data, but I have seen it before). Your argument is 'PNC park and Miller Park are equally favorable to HR hitters, because they have almost identical park factors.' But in truth, on average, it was 22% easier to hit a HR last year at Miller Park.

It's nice that you found BP, take a look at this article. Rob G, you should as well.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php...

Here's the pertinent quote:

"That issue is this: the way we employ park factors in the analytical community is wrongheaded, and it needs to change posthaste.

As you're aware, we mostly use runs-based park factors when making thumbnail or even quantitative adjustments to statistics. This is problematic on a couple of fronts. First, doing so ignores how parks affect run scoring on the component level. Knowing that a park has a runs factor of 103 tells us that it promotes the scoring of runs, but it doesn't tell us whether it does by inflating home runs, singles, non-home run extra-base hits or all of the above.

Additionally--and this is a more vital failing of runs-based park factors--they don't tell us how a park accommodates left-handed batters and right-handed batters. For instance, Comerica, Wrigley, Safeco, Fenway, Shea and many others affect hitters quite differently according to their handedness. To cite one extreme example, from 2002-2004, Minute Maid Park's average home run factor for right-handed batters is 116, while its home run factor for lefty hitters is 84"

OK, class is out. You're dismissed.

One more thing.

If you are looking at BP, Thomas out WARP'd Griffey by 2 games in the 90's despite a 207 difference in fielding runs. At least that is what I got when I used the calculator, their stuff doens't paste into spreadsheets and I am too lazy to do the whole note-pad to excel thing.

Griffey was only 6 FRAA for the decade. By their metrics 10 gold gloves was probably 10 too many.

Just because Frank Thomas deserves to be in the HOF doesn't mean he'll get in. I think that the baseball writers include a hell of a lot of people who don't know a lot about objective baseball (see: Ryan Howard, Justin Morneau, Ron Santo, etc., etc.)

I personally believe that while Frank Thomas may have the numbers to be a hall of fame player, the writers are likely to screw him over a bit due to his being a complete asshole and they will also hold against him the fact that he is essentially a DH. Yeah he played at 1B for a while, but there's a difference between playing 1B and actually fielding it. Frank Thomas in the field made Fred McGriff look like Mark Grace.

Also, while he may have been pretty decent over the last 5 years, nobody's considered him a force since 1999 really and almost everyone has forgotten about his contributions. They will only continue to be forgotten while he hangs around for another few years and then in the 5 years after retirement.

I can just see now the conversations several years from now: "Yeah his numbers look great but he just didn't dominate his position for long enough. Plus he DH'ed for half his career."

I personally still think he'll make it in, but it'll take him a few years (probably more than Ryne Sandberg) and he is most definitely not a lock because of the factors I mentioned above.

On a side note, I also think Jeff Bagwell should, SHOULD not will, be a lock.

I should clarify my comment: "almost everyone has forgotten his contributions"

It's an exaggeration as it is clearly evidenced here that "almost everyone" isn't accurate, but I think that a lot of people have.

For Bogey, check the Toronto Sun today, (12/17/06) lots of quotes from your buddy Wilken! If Wells was such a consensus pick, how come the USA today article said Wilken/Jays reached for Wells instead of Darnell McDonald and some writers/publications accused Wilken/Jays of taking a budgetary pick in Wells during the 97 draft?
In # 16 you bring up Logan White ( a good one but we havent seen the finals from his drafts yet) Mike Radcliff ( a real good one) Jennings and Fleming (good ones also) but check the same yrs they were scouting directors against each other and compare thee overall drafts and qualitites of each draft and how many major leaguers they got during that time period and I think youll see who got the most!!
Arbuckle would be a very excellent asst but he would have the same job here as he has in Philly and their scouting director when they selected is a guy named Marty Woolever who selected Howard and Utley, not Arbuckle.

Josh Byrnes has the distinction of commandering the 98 draft for the Indians which resulted in zero major leaguers and not even a " cup of coffee" player to the major leagues and Woodfork was with him over there. Dipoto is their Player Developement director over with the D-Backs, it was Chicagos' own Mike Rizzo who got those players for the D-Backs, he just left to the Nationals just a few months ago.

HFO,

Thomas played a decent first base at the beginning of his career, and contrary to Chad's opinion he could run a bit as well - didn't he play TE at Auburn, now that I think about it?
But, yeah, by 97 or so he was a DH, occasionally masquerading as a first basemen.

All that being said, Molitor didn't have any trouble getting into the HoF and if the Big Hurt puts two more years up like he did last year, his counting stats, his MVP totals and his saberstats are going to force the voters to put him in first ballot. I don't remember him being Jim-Rice-reviled by the media, just considered more of a petulent baby than an actual jerk.

To me, Bagwell is a steroid guy, at least as much as Sosa. 4 All-Star games is pretty fringy, and the Astrodome of the '90's wasn't like it was in '86, but I think he'll probably get in year 3 or so, like Ryno, unless the other shoe drops on him.

"If you cannot even spell the name of the ballparks, you're opinion doesn't count for anything."

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I guess the comment about Chadelian logic was too subtle for you?

He meant your misspelling of 'your'.

Melky on the market? Anyone know a team looking for a center fielder? The dude's my second-favorite M Cabrera in baseball!

since the sportswriters arent 20 years old (no, that's not a swipe at any posters...i dont know how old most any off you are) not many of them missed on on the 91-late 90s frank, esp. the early 90s monster he was.

dont think anyone alive (especially his buzz in 91-96) had much o say about frank that didnt inspire fear or awe much the same way pujols does today. and after that its still some good stuff, just a bit overshadowed by the power explosions that made 30-40hr play fly under the radar.

Me calling someone out for misspelling a word is like saying 95% of this thread has some redeeming value.

Keep you stats. Baseball is not played on paper. Its played on a field. And Griffey out played Frank. Pure and simple. Only a bunch of Sabreheads could disagree.

BTW, Frank was a complete BUTCHER in the field. His pout attitude is what kept him starting at first.

"Me calling someone out for misspelling a word is like saying 95% of this thread has some redeeming value."

If you're going to impersonate someone, I would try to spell the name correctly. Free tip.

I wasn't calling Chad out for mispelling a word, I was SARCASTICALLY using the same argument Chad once used with me, because I used the incorrect spelling of 'Clemons' while referring to the future HoF'er.

Sheesh, give your left ear a tug.

comparing a CF'r to a 1st baseman is wrong in itself...the CF always wins on "pure play" comparison...its well more athletic.

griff was a better CF in his class compared to thomas's 1st in his class, but he was not a butcher there until he packed on the weight vs. the muscle he had in the early/mid 90s.

i dunno how anyone who lived 1991-1996 can forget frank...he WAS the news. people loved griff cuz he was 3 years old and played well, but he didnt come into his own til the mid90s.

frank thomas had his video games, shirts, tv commercials, endorcements...not to mention to utter fear of any pitcher he faced til the 98 roid-race for homers and frank's own injuries kicked in.

noone who lived 91-97, esp. 92-96 could have missed frank-mania. he deserved it, earned it, and proved it.

"Keep you stats." Or rather, use only the stats that I deem relevant.

"Only a bunch of Sabreheads could disagree."
Yeah, that was the great thing about the 90's, when they let the Sabermatic Society vote for the MVP award.

Seems like the Gonzalez/LaRoche/Cabrera talks are dying down. Does anyone else think an Eyre-for-Cabrera trade would be a reasonable move for both teams? Yanks would get a left-handed set-up man with good stuff (albeit more expensive and with not quite the same stuff (although better control) as Gonzalez) who could close on occasion for Mo, and the Cubs would get a young outfielder who switch-hits and can play CF (until Pie or a permanent solution is found) and could also become a good late-inning defensive substitution for Soriano or Murton. I haven't seen too much of Cabrera, but I like what I have seen. He's a pretty good defender who hustles and had a good offensive year last year. I'm not saying I expect him to repeat those numbers, but I think he's fully capable of hitting .270-ish, and he knows how to take a walk.

That would allow the Cubs to make Cotts the primary LH set-up man. I still think Ohman should be traded, as well, but we have Rapada to take his role.

Anyone else think this is plausible? Practical? Possible?

WSux signed Toby Hall to a 2 yr 3.65M deal.

Yawn.

What no Sandy Alomar Jr.? I guess they will pick Alomar up again after they release Hall at the all star break.

I dunno about that Ryan. I don't quite get Melky's plate discipline. It was never really displayed in the minors. I think it was a sort of 'fit in with the guys' thing, and there's a good chance that it would disapear if you put him with Soriano and Jacque Jones as role models. Then you've got Angel Pagan without the speed.

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