Déja´ Vu All Over Again

Dr. Joseph Hecht with hopefully his very last Mark Prior update ever... UPDATE: Will Carroll stopped by in the comments to clear up a few matters and there's a follow-up by our doctor. -------------- I know, we’re all tired of reading about Mark Prior’s injuries. Now that we have diagnoses that match his symptoms, hopefully we can just move on. Cubs.com site says that Mark Prior’s surgeon, Dr. Andrews, did a debridement of Prior's right rotator cuff, as well as repair the labral and capsular injuries in his right shoulder. Sounds accurate enough to me. Will Carroll has an unfiltered update on Mark Prior if you have a Baseball Prospectus subscription. I wanted to try sort through the terminology and implications. Will Carroll: "Sources indicate the surgery was done completely with the scope and involved a Bankart repair and capsular shift. The Bankart repair involves... anchoring the capsular ligaments and glenoid labrum into anchors drilled into the scapula. Despite all this, it can be done completely arthroscopically.” My comment: A Bankart lesion repair refers to fixing a detachment of the labrum AND capsule, including the main (glenohumeral) ligaments, and reattaching them back to the front of the shoulder socket (glenoid rim). This is a bigger tear than a labral tear, which is just the fibrocartilage rim on the socket. In the last few years implants (anchors) have been developed which can reattach this tissue with arthroscopic techniques. These Bankart lesions occur with shoulder dislocations or at least partial dislocations termed subluxations. If Mark Prior did have a Bankart lesion, I would presume it occurred when he was injured in the Marcus Giles collision back in 2003 (instead of what was reported, which was an AC joint sprain). Did #22 tear the front of his shoulder and have a partial shoulder dislocation with that fateful basepath collison? Could he still pitch effectively with this after the injury? Yes, at least for a while. Historically, dislocations were not operated on until recurring or chronic instability occurred which can develop over years. So the rehab he was getting would have been the traditional approach here. Newer arthroscopic techniques may be changing this approach. These tears in high profile athletes are getting fixed more often upon the initial injury because they can be done less invasively. A Bankart repair can address capsular laxity as well (see below regarding the capsular shift procedure). Will Carroll says: “The cuff debridement is the most significant injury.” My comment: This is unlikely to be more problematic than the need for a Bankart type repair of the anterior capsule unless it was a full thickness cuff tear (which wasn't reported). Impingement or friction on the cuff can also be related to the shoulder instability, so any cuff wear can be secondary to the anterior capsular tear. Like a loose door hinge that causes the door to get scuff marks when it closes. Bursal sided Rotator Cuff debridement is usually accompanied by shaving the overlying acromion, which opens the space where the impingement occurs. I haven't seen any reporting of this as yet. Will Carroll’s speculates on the capsular surgery:
“The capsule repair probably involved a capsular shift. In this the surgeon will make a "small incision" in the front of the shoulder, then folds an overlap to shrink the capsules circumference. It’s like folding over one of those funny pictures on the back of Mad Magazine.”
My comment: if the procedure was all arthroscopic (also reported on the cubs.com site), then a capsular shift wasn't done, since this is an open procedure and is done for loose capsules when the labrum and front of the shoulder capsule is intact and firmly anchored. What can be done with the scope in a lax capsule situation is a capsular shrinkage with a thermal probe. This basically burns the capsule at several locations causing it to shrink, thus tightening it. It is possible MP had a capsular shift through a small incision, if the labrum wasn't detached but just needed shaving, but then using the term Bankart repair would be incorrect. An open capsular shift is usually not done in conjunction with a Bankart type repair as it would tighten up the shoulder in two places making it hard to tell how much is too much, particularly for a pro pitcher, as the Bankart repair can alone be used to tighten up the capsule significantly just by where the capsule tissue grasped when it is re-anchored down to the socket. The weblinks Will Carroll used in his Prior update had some odd choices and they made me realize most of the media writers don’t have a solid handle on the medical details. This link from "small incision" which goes to a web page with a large shoulder incision used in shoulder replacement with a metal rod in the humeral head (used as an alignment guide). Don’t look if you can’t stomach fillet of shoulder. We’re not supposed to say "oop"s in surgery. Given his Mad Magazine fold-in reference regarding capsular shift, I’ll go with "What Me Worry" instead of "Oops". Hopefully, Will doesn’t do his own links. Will Carroll’s wrap up:
..."So what does this mean? First, it means that Prior had been pitching with significant damage for the past two years."
Prior, at 26 years old, now has the rest of 2006 to rehab and still could have a career ahead of him. Without pain, one would assume that he could return to those same mechanics that allowed him to become the pitcher he once was. There’s a small silver lining here in a dark black cloud over Wrigley."
My comment and questions: Something doesn’t mesh here. Why did one of the most highly regarded baseball pitchers since starring in college have to go through several wasted seasons without knowing what was wrong? Now we have a diagnosis, well actually three diagnoses. It seems like the saddest part of the problem was that it took much too long to finally get to this point. Why does this only happen to the Cubs?
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Comments

what i do not understand, as a layman and an admitted cub's malcontent, is WHY THE FUCK DID IT TAKE SO LONG TO LOOK INSIDE HIS FUCKING SHOULDER?

It seems to be the opinion that the Cubs doctors are clueless nitwits with a cereal box diploma. While likely true, Cubs players are allowed to choose whatever doctor they want to go to and the Cubs will pay. Yocum and Andrews are two of the best in the business and that's who Prior has been seeing. Shoulder surgery is serious business and the results far more varied than Tommy John surgery so cracking it open is done as a very last resort.

Nothing signficant has been showing up in the tests so the docs felt he could possibly just rehab the injuries. It didn't work. Shit happens.

thnx for the piece btw Dr. Cubster...

so those rumors over the offseason that Prior never fully healed from that collision with Marcus Giles might have some merit judging by the surgery performed?

People need to relax about this whole issue. Medical professionals aren't gods and human bodies aren't machines. It's entirely possible that a combination of smaller injuries to a joint as complex and difficult to image as the shoulder can have a significant impact on a pitcher without being obvious to diagnostic radiological studies. It's entirely possible that similar injuries in a 26 year-old not pitching at the highest level of professional sports would manifest as shoulder soreness and stiffness and never be addressed medically.

Prior's had two serious fluke injuries to this arm. Prior's proven - - beyond any question - - that when healthy, he's an elite pitcher. Cub fans are fools to curse him for his injuries and idiots to discredit his future simply because he hasn't been able to pitch at the highest level these past two years. There are two questions Cubs fans -- at least those fans who care about fielding the best team -- should worry about with Prior at this point. First, can he rehabilitate and return to his first year form? Second, has the fan reaction and the team's decision to demote him to AAA (extending the time he needs to reach free agency) soured him on the Cubs altogether? Prior's our guy. He was and could still be a key piece to our march to October. It's embarrassing to read the whining and disgust fans here express regarding his future when it's obvious there are no clear answers and only time will tell. Give the guy a break.

Very well said Hippolito.

I too feel that the demotion to AAA may leave the biggest scar.

I suspect somewhere along the past road MP did have discussion with several docs regarding the role of having his shoulder scoped. The most recent example of a player having a Bankart lesion (with dislocation/subluxation) is Toby Hall, the WSox backup catcher. He has elected to rehab without surgery although the initial word was he was going to have surgery and miss the 2007 season. I realize a catcher is different but still it highlights the real decisions that go with injuries. Athletes don't want to miss playing time even though sometimes the shorter route back to the playing field doesn't always work out.

Fortunately for MP, if his shoulder is finally healthy and knowing that baseball these days is a business, MP will prove for himself and his family that he is the elite pitcher that he once was. It's a long road from here to there though. As a 26 year old, he still has time. Sadly, it may eventually be elsewhere if he holds a grudge for the way it was handled.

Frankly: I am really tired of all the Prior talk. Let's move on. What can be done to salvage something of this poorly constructed, mismatched 2007 Cub team. At the beginning of the year, I thought a .500 season was possible in this very weak Central Division. Now, I am just hoping to escape last place.

I was at Tuesdays game and in over fifty years of attending Cub games do not remember the amount of anger and dissatisfaction in the stands.

Sun-Times link regarding MP surgery and the morning after:

http://tinyurl.com/yt599n

So, do the Cubs try one more year with him? I think you have to resign him. If you are going to pay him 3 mil to rehab for a season, why not see if you can get some return on the investment. If this does correct the problem, then why not allow one of the most talented pitchers to come along see what he can do. Not to mention the fear of seeing Prior dominate the Cubs in a Cardinal uniform scares me.

Lets also remember that Team Physicians arent always the best physicians. Doctors do bid for the job, lowest bidder with the best malpractice record gets the job perhaps? Many players on teams have refused to go to team doctors for injury problems. I think the Bears and Blackhawks have had these problems with team physicians before, where the physicians said one thing and the player went elsewhere. I dont have evidence to link to, but I swear I recall incidents in the last 10 years or so.

Doctors will bid so that they can be associated with the professional team in order to drum up business outside of pro sports. They dont make any money off of athletes. They make money by being the Tampa Bay Bucs team physician and getting Joe Schmoe to come to them for his shoulder or knee surgery.

Its all about marketing, baby.

Thats why they all to go James Andrews for their surgeries. Cause they dont trust the local docs.

Would you go to the lowest bidder for your own health care, or to the company physician if you were hurt on the job?

so those rumors over the offseason that Prior never fully healed from that collision with Marcus Giles might have some merit judging by the surgery performed?
------
Yes. If MP really did have a Bankart lesion. That usually takes a trauma of some sort (of course he could have fallen on the pavement walking his dog). This type of injury is typically treated with rehab in the beginning (see my comments on Toby Hall), with decent recovery until the symptoms become more chronic. MP's pitching was fantastic after he recovered from that the collison in 2003, so it took time for the looseness/instability the tear created to lead to what occurred in 2006 and 2007.

My guess is that there are far too many personal trainers who have learned their anatomy from articles in Muscle and Fitness magazine. Lots of "strength" coaches who learn plenty of facts from other guys at the gym or from GNC flyers.

Why do pro athletes take boatloads of supplements that were given to them by these people? I dont think I would trust my health and career to a guy I know from the gym who can get me some cream and some clear and some really good protein shakes.

Just like everyone, I've been getting more and more pissed as this has drug along, not knowing exactly who to be mad at? In the end, the blame can only go on the team. They are responsible for the medical care of the players and I don't ever recall Mark refusing treatment or examinations.

This just makes me sad. I was listening to Tim Kirkjian a little while ago talking about him and what a great pitcher he had been right away and it just hit me in the gut.

It just seems that this should have been done a year ago, maybe longer.

Someguy:
"So, do the Cubs try one more year with him?"

No. And the same goes for Wood.

As I said I would, I will back off of the "Prior is a growing female genitalia" theme.

Maybe, he's the toughest guy in the history of sports if he was throwing with that much pain and damage from the Giles collision.

I'll hoist a Coors Light to ya, Mark. Ther's one guy in Central Iowa who has been your biggest critic.....now, I hope you come back strong...andI hope it's with the Cubs. If you can, Chicago will love ya baby.

Joey, from Iowa...soon to be from Mankato, MN.

So is there anyone out there with medical knowledge who can tell us what the chances are that Prior will ever be able to pitch again at anything close to the level that he did in 2003?

So is there anyone out there with medical knowledge...

>

darn html...

[[crickets]]

Most of my anger is at the Cubs for never being truthful about anything about his injuries and now Prior who said everything was "fine" and he thought he should have went north with the team when obivously something was wrong with him.

Stop the bs!

And then the SOB tries to ask for a raise last year, he deserved his minor league demotion this year.

Take a long look at Wade Miller, Mark, there's your future.

Cubster:

It’s a long road from here to there though. As a 26 year old, he still has time. Sadly, it may eventually be elsewhere if he holds a grudge for the way it was handled.

So he got upset he was sent down to AAA, what were the Cub's supposed to do? Let him get shelled in the big leagues?

No.

It may seem cold, but I'd rather the Cub's run the club like a business than a feel-good summer camp. "I just work here". That's correct, you just work here, Mark. FWIW, I hope he comes back and dominates, either with the Cub's or someone else.

Doc -- Great article. I'm happy to see that there is finally a diagnosis (actually three) to go along with Prior's complaints. I share your frustration over how long it took to finally get to this point. I don't think there's anyone to blame or be angry with, but I sure wish they would have scoped Prior a couple of years ago.

I hadn't intended to post here but to correct this:

1. Dr. Andrews doesn't do thermals. He does a Sidewinder to affect a capsular shift, all arthroscopically. This technique isn't new and it's my understanding that it is not uncommon.

2. The Bankart wasn't caused by a collision. Simply put, the symptomology exhibited by a luxation doesn't fit with the immediate results (Prior back throwing effectively in two weeks) nor does the later damage appear to be traumatic. I'll have more on this in today's column.

3. The cuff debridement was the most significant because of its lack of even partial thickness tearing. It's poor wording on my part; I was trying to say that this is the most significant result and a positive one. There was no Mumford and, while I am not a doctor, the acromial impingement isn't exactly correlated to a debridement. I'll admit to not following Hecht's logic.

4. Your take on my wrap up is emotionally based and wrong. This doesn't happen to just the Cubs and suggesting that this was a misdiagnosis is ... well, I hesitate to state anything in an absolute, but I think even Dr. Hecht would defer to the opinions of Dr. Andrews, Dr. Yocum, and Dr. ElAttrache.

Major props to Will for coming on here and elaborating on his article to a fuller extent. MP has to take some responsibility for this outcome - since he insisted that he stay with the big league club for this season, that may give a few hints regarding how honest he's been with the Cubs about his condition. While you could make the case that he's been trying to "gut it out" in an admirable manner, at some point he had to recognize that something's not right and take the appropriate measures.

BTW, you have to wonder where his father's been on this issue as well - MP seems to take his advice and counsel to heart, so it would be interesting to hear his comments on the situation at present.

Come now folks, you know how this will play out:
If the Cubs do re-sign Prior, he will never regain form.
If the Cubs ditch Prior, he will sign with Atlanta and win 4 Cy Youngs and another World Series trophy for a 90 year-old Bobby Cox.

This took FAR too long to come to a head. Prior missed almost all of last season. Wouldnt it have been prudent to do this last year. I wonder how much of Prior avoiding the knife was due to lack of trust in the cubs medical personnel? Kerry Wood had an unnecessary labrum surgery in 2005 that received much negative press. I can't help but think this played into Prior's surgical delays.

Hi Will, thanks for taking time to post.

Certainly I'd defer to Drs. Andrews, et al and their expertise. Of course, since I'm just reading between the lines on such a high profile case. I appreciate that it's hard for a non-orthopod to translate this stuff to the online and media world.

You should have not described the small incision open capsular shift in your article if you knew he did a sidewinder (which is just a variation of what I said in the bankart repair tightening the capsule).

A true bankart lesion is traumatic, it's not just from stretch. Something has to detach the capsule from the glenoid rim. It's just hard to sort out in a chronic situation. Plus your conclusion said he was dealing with this for two years, hence clearly chronic. I just put together the implications of what was the most traumatic event to MP's shoulder.

Be careful of throwing terms out without explaining them. Mumford procedures are for AC joint stabilization after type 3 injuries. That would have been a significant surprise if such a procedure was needed.

"Your take on my wrap up is emotionally based and wrong."

I might be emotional and might be wrong, but I didn't imply misdiagnosis, just delay in diagnosis. Certainly if MP listened to advice to treat his problems with rehab, it's not the Cubs fault. It always boils down to the patient's decision when it comes to elective surgery.

Of course injured pitchers litter the highways of mlb history and the cubs are not alone in this. My point is that it's just another page in a team that just never seems to escape it's own demons.

"has the fan reaction and the team’s decision to demote him to AAA (extending the time he needs to reach free agency) soured him on the Cubs altogether?"

I doubt Prior is even aware, or gives two craps about "fan reaction".

What were the Cubs supposed to do? You can't add a guy to the 25-man roster and not have him contribute just because he might get his feelings hurt. "Thanks Mark for what you did back in '04 and '05, here's a roster spot just because we know your really, really want it."

He was paid very well for '06 and now '07 and due to know fault of his own, he wasn't able to contribute any thing to the team. Now one could make a case that a person might feel some sort of obligation to return to that club, if he ever recovers.

I hope the best for Prior. It'd be wonderful if he was able to enjoy a recovery and return to some kind of form. But really, I don't get all of the sympathy and blood letting that being poured out for him. It's unfortunate, but man, that just the way it goes sometimes.

Marcus Giles = Steve Bartman

If those two didn't exist, we have AT LEAST two World Series in the last 4 years.

Wow. A big thank you to cubster, and also to Will Carroll for taking the time to visit with us and clarify a few points. I mirror the sentiment that if we cut him loose, he will end up on the Braves, or worse, on the Cardinals as an All-Star and constant thorn in our sides. And if we keep him, he will wither away and never surface in the big leagues again.

Easy, Joey. Yesterday's chatroom fiasco during the game should have been enough to tell you not to touch on the Steve Bartman subject. You now deserve the messages that follow.

Just think the $ 8 million used for Miller, Prior and Wood will be going to half of Z's salary next year.

MARK PRIOR ORIGINAL SIGNED CHICAGO CUBS JERSEY!!!!!

BUY NOW!!!! ZERO BIDS!!! HURRY!!! DON'T MISS OUT!!!

http://tinyurl.com/22okhb

MP could have avoided the collision with Giles. Machismo lost out with the way this whole scenario has unfolded. Dusty didn't do Prior or Wood any favors in 2003 with inordinately high pitch counts, but each guy bears some responsibility. I only feel sorry that neither will ever reach their original potential.
Cadman

Cubster - Great Job - thanks for the post and the follow-up.

Per the trib today we have prior for two more years. The heck with how he feels, this is a business and we have hedged our bet while he rehabs.if he can do anything next september, we get one more year in 2009 to see if he can be great again, no downside, Cubster and will carroll, your insight is what make this site so much better than all the rest. Thanks!

For what it's worth, my teams deal with a major name sporting goods provider who has numerous interactions with most ML teams/players during Spring training and throughout the season. I'm trying to come up with an analogy for what he says other team's players regard is for the Cubs trainer/medical staff -- think Dr. Bombay from the TV show 'Bewitched' would be the closest.

I wouldn't even presume to question Dr. Andrews, Dr. Yocum, et al. Their reputations are self-evident, but how this was allowed to go on for over 2 years is unbelieveable. I blame Hendry, the Cubs trainer staff (becoming an oxy-moron), and Prior for this travesty of errors.

In the end, I believe Prior's future with the Cubs is tied to Hendry. As long as he remains GM, I would bet real money Prior is offered a Dempster/Williamson type contract for 2008-09. If new management kicks Jimbo to the door, then that will be the end of Prior with the Cubs.

So it's all Marcus Giles fault.

Mark, come back strong, healthy and in top form. We'll still welcome you. We won't pay you as much as before, but all those millions we already gave you should tide you over till your career gets back on track.

I think the blame lies with Prior, for plowing directly into Marcus Giles when he was clearly standing in front of him. Also for purposely tractor beaming a batted baseball into his elbow.

I think the answer is clear at this point. Michael Barrett is to blame.

Jace--It's sattire....funnies...comedy.....albeit poor attempts at humor.

Truth be told, it's all Nefi's fault.

Nefi=Lawn Gnome

I know, Joey. Mine was supposed to be humor, too, with a little bit of truth to it... Did you witness that during the game yesterday? It was ridiculous.

You really owe Mark Prior an apology, Cubster. Your armchair diagnosis was "vaginitis." And you made it ad nauseum.

Which reminds me, whatever became of Silent Towel?

Which part of your post reminded you of Silent Towel? The vaginitis part or the making points ad nauseum part?

Keith:
"we get one more year in 2009 to see if he can be great again, no downside,"

No downside??? Besides the millions it will take to keep him over the next 2 years and the spot on the 40 man he will take up for basically no reason the next two years. Yeah, no downside.

yeah, we've kept plenty of other crap on the 40-man roster just like most every other team, so that doesn't worry me much.

It really depends on his contract demands for next year to be honest. If's he willing to sign at a substantially lower rate (say a mil plus incentives) without being an ass about arbitration and all, there's no reason to cut him, especially if we still have club control.

Assuming Z stays (big assumption at this point), you've got 4/5 of your rotation pretty much set for next year and plenty of minor league/vet option for the 5 spot.

manny... i believe it is only one year, and money really isn't the issue. the relatively small amount of money is not really a downside, nor is the 40 man roster spot, as he can be placed on the 60 day dl for as long as he needs to be.

the issue for you is that you believe people put too much hope in prior. you believe that the cubs should care that fans have been "hurt" by prior and wood.

It is not a big deal to hide Prior now on the 40 man, because they can just shift him to teh 60 day and open up a sopt, but during the offseason there is no 60 day and no where to hide him. I say cut ties, like they finally did with Rusch, and move on (Ditto with Wood).

not just Cubs fans, dave, i believe it to be true for some people in the cubs organization too (front office, players, caoaches, etc.).

The new ownership will determine MP's future with the Cubs. I agree with justanoldcubfan. I was hoping that maybe this year's team could reach.500, but damn, if they continue to play like this, it's cellar dwelling time. I am curious as to what the fans at Wrigley are saying (apart from the swearing). The national media keeps perpetuating the myth that Cubs fans don't care about the losing. It's the jackass "tourists" who visit Wrigley that don't care.

And you made it ad nauseum.
----
I think it wasn't me that repetitively used that term (although I don't deny using it in a post before), in fact I recall posting previously explaining my position on this when it became a bandwagon term. Any negative reference to his toughness in that capacity certainly deserves an apology but it shows the frustration that the medical information that has been given on this pitcher has, for a long time, been suboptimal. So either they were rendering advice that didn't match his situation or he was symptom magnifying. I guess I believed what was being reported by the media regarding MP's condition more than I should have. It sure seems that missing 2006 and 2007 could have been better handled with a scope when he was being put on a different spring training schedule in 2006, instead of blaming it on weakness from a severe viral illness from Dec 05.

jace...

LOL.

This is hillarious-

Curt Schilling Sock- Was it Painted?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2...

Maybe if Prior would have painted his shoulder red there would be more sympathy.

Sounds like people have watching "The Natural" too many times.

btw, anyone know what keystrokes I use so I can spell Deja vu correctly?

It's suppose to be an accented e and a or whatever they're called.

driving me nuts.

jacos,

I CANNOT BELIEVE that Gary Thorne just up and said that on the air like it was general public knowledge. Absolutely unbelievable.

Rob,

The é you're looking for is Alt+0233.
The à you're looking for is Alt+0224.

I had to memorize all ose keystrokes and crap for a French class once.

Look, I was blown away by what Schilling did in that series, but does anyone doubt that he may have done this? I sure don't...

Regardless of whether it was painted, it still stands as an amazing performance. I am not surprised if this is true, but in my mind, it doesn't really take much away from what he accomplished.

What about this year's rotation? What is going on with the 5th spot? Miller has been ineffective, and the plan is to go to Guzman next. What if he proves he is not ready? Is the backup plan Neil Cotts, Shaun Marshall, or what?

mdog -
I would guess that Sean Marshall would be the next in line, should Guzman fail. I expect that Guzman will prove to be an improvement over Miller, and, barring injury, I think he'll be there all season. Carlos Marmol is another option. He is doing well at AAA. Les Walrond is another...

I would guess Guzman first...

then Marshall or Marmol, maybe Ryan O'Malley, Neil Cotts, hell Miller maybe finds something on his rehab stint.

I'm hoping for Marshall to get it together for this year.

He was a somewhat shining light last year.

This year's Cubs 5th starter spot is beginning to feel like the White Sox 5th starter position the year they lost 90% of those games, before they traded for Garcia....

Does anyone here know about Gary Thorne? Is he goofy?

He totally threw Mariabelli under the bus.

I have seen a lot of Gary Thorne from hockey telecasts over the years. I have always liked him as a sportscaster. I have never heard of him making comments like this before...

And one last interesting tidbit from the sports reporting world-

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-oldmike26...

What the hell? I know there's a joke in there somewhere, but it was over my head.

Yep, that's a winner, jacos. I saw that on Deadspin a couple of hours ago... What a strange scenario. He's going to stay at the same job! How do co-workers deal with that? I can't imagine how weird a situation that would be... The guy's married, too...

Cubster/Dr. -

You're correct on Mumford ... my error. I thought that was the standard term for AC shave. Learn something new every day!

And my "wrong" statement was stronger than I liked. I just want to make it clear that there wasn't a "misdiagnosis" here. Believe me, I understand the frustration of this thing dragging on and on. I had to write about this thing every day it seems!

Oh and one last thing -- the links I did on my Unfiltered post didn't match up well. I thought the big filetted shoulders looked cool though and would reinforce just how serious this type of thing is. (Dr Hecht, feel free to email me directly anytime.)

Jace-
Yeah I saw it on Deadspin too.

Very interesting statistcal analysis from Steve Stone and John DeWan (form. Stats, Inc.).

During the last 70 years, the Cubs have only won MORE than 50 games AT HOME twice, apparently.

In comparing possible reasons for why the team has never been a consistent winner, he looked at teams from 1960 to now, and how the success was tied to the parks and the ability of the ownership to adapt the clubs to the park's characteristics.

The Yankees, for instance, lead the AL (surprise), with the Red Sox Following next. The Twins have 8 seasons where they've won 50+ games at home.

In the NL - as you may guess, the Dodgers, Braves, Cardinals, lead the pack.

In looking at Wrigley, and the characteristics of the team - HR hitters? Ground-ball pitchers? Speed? Bullpen strength? Defense? - wind conditions, night game/day game, et. al. there are MANY reasons that need to be considered, and the point - which the statistical evidence would suggest - that ownership just has not had consistent plans to assess this.

Remember - unlike any other MLB team, the team only plays 30 night games. In the minors, the games are mostly night. Also, he mentioned that for 2007, the Cubs have the easiest ROAD record he ever remembers. It was all very interesting, and I must say, the inability to field a team that has a home-field advantage year-in, year out, is very fan-frustrating.

Stone and Murph are on for another hour or so, if you are interested: http://www.670thescore.com/

SAMMY!!!!!!!!!!!

HR # 5

He is only batting .229 but has 5 HR and 17 RBI, but only 16 hits and 15 K's.

He might end up with a season like McGwire had in 2001: 29 HR's, 64 RBI's but only a .187 BA (56 hits).

"Does anyone here know about Gary Thorne? Is he goofy?"

No he's not goofy, he's actually one of the best sports broadcasters going. He's doing O's games now with Jim Palmer, did ESPN games for the last few years(he was great when paired up with Stone) and before that the Mets....back in the 80's he used to do White Sox games on WFLD. He's sort of the Larry Brown of sportscasters...always moving around. He's the best play by play hockey announcer out there and that's saying a lot because I love Pat Foley(former Blackhawks announcer...current Wolves). From what it seems, I think he twisted Mirabelli's words and confused Mirabelli's joke. Sort of Mirabelli saying "ah you know Curt...he painted it" as a take off of Schilling's "red light Curt" nickname. Of course with Schill you never know but I was at the HOF last summer and the blood on the sock has turned brownish..I don't think paint would have that affect.

Stone and Murph: "Why the Cubs don't win at Home" right now - see above link...

btw from THT....in 1 run games(1950-present) the Cubs are 83-113...that's a .423 W% and good for 2nd worse all time....naturally the expansion teams have a smaller sample size but still pathetic.

Team G Wins Losses Win%
TBD 18 11 7 0.611
LAN 252 147 105 0.583
ATL 181 100 81 0.552
BAL 193 106 87 0.549
SFG 185 101 84 0.546
TOR 74 40 34 0.541
HOU 192 103 89 0.536
STL 215 115 100 0.535
LAA 201 107 94 0.532
MIL 108 57 51 0.528
TEX 145 76 69 0.524
NYM 213 111 102 0.521
SDP 153 78 75 0.510
NYY 190 96 94 0.505
CLE 182 92 90 0.505
COL 16 8 8 0.500
CHW 230 113 117 0.491
PHI 217 104 113 0.479
DET 175 83 92 0.474
FLA 38 18 20 0.474
MIN 181 84 97 0.464
OAK 184 85 99 0.462
CIN 186 85 101 0.457
BOS 175 80 95 0.457
PIT 190 86 104 0.453
SEA 71 32 39 0.451
KCR 105 47 58 0.448
WAS 141 61 80 0.433
CHC 196 83 113 0.423
ARI 25 7 18 0.280

#72 Manny - Yeah, that was what we figured. Sammy's only here for Sammy, to get over 600 and give himself a much better shot at the Hall. Same selfish guy he's been for the last 10 years. Finishing the season with 30 jacks and a .225 average sounds, well, more realistic than any other scenario. At least unsuspecting fans at Arlington aren't being subjected to his arm.

ZHL (poster formerly known as WPZ):
"At least unsuspecting fans at Arlington aren’t being subjected to his arm."

Better yet, they are not subjected to him sprinting out to RF.

How I feel about cutting ties with former Cub greats:

I think they should probably hold onto them while they're in their twenties (Prior, Wood) and let them go their own way when they're in their forties/fifties/sixties/seventies (Williams, Santo).

sure, Sosa's playing the field.

in other ridiculous small sample size news

Soriano hasn't hit a homer yet and Berkman is hitting .222

Sosa's been heating up folks, he'll be at least a .250 hitter by the end of the year. And if he hits 30 homers, he'll at the very least approach 100 RBi's, probably go well over.

McGwire didn't get RBI's because no one pitched to him with people on-base or he'd take a walk. Sosa will swing and drive in all the good hitters in front of him that will be on-base.

17 RBI's in 20 games is good btw, not sure if you guys know that.

tex knew what they were getting and what he's gonna do...hit the hell outta the ball rob deer style.

GM and manager werent/arent playing in new territory here.

he's still cheap for what he delivers, but i wonder what his "presence" is in the clubhouse this time around.

Buncha bitter haters. I still will never know why.

Sosa's playing the field? You mean like meeting Texan girls, right?

re: #51

Nope, it wasn't Cubster who beat the "vaginitis" out of us. That was Silent Cardinal Fan.

But you made a lot of similar statements before ST hit the scene, like this one, "So that’s why his curve was flat…Cub management taught him to throw it with his fingers crossed!
Seems Prior’s Gynecologist has cleared him for throwing from the mound. It puts some perspective on what goes on in the doctor’s office when he’s wearing the stirrups"

I

Rob G.:
"17 RBI’s in 20 games is good btw, not sure if you guys know that."

Thanks for pointing that out Rob, i didn't know that...

If it hasn't already been noted, SEAN MARSHALL had a successful start for Daytona. 6 IP, 2 ERs.
Very encouraging!

Go Sean!!

Chad:
"Buncha bitter haters. I still will never know why."

I am not a hater. I am not happy with most of the things Sosa did, but I do not hate him and have mostly fond memories of his tenure here. The leaving early thing though did leave a bad taste in my mouth.

7h 1bb 4k...

Man, Paul Sullivan today really backdoor slams Felix Pie...

I do like Floyd's bat and leadership, and I wish Piniella would find a way to get Murton some more playing time, but he's got three right-fielders until Pie gets sent down.

Well, that settles it. PIE's MLB career is over. Paul says so.

sammy hit another.

SAMMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#6

an OF with 4 bats...one of them is a .242/.265/.394 bat with a huge chunk of options that will most likely never be used up...and its unreasonable to think people wanna send that down? ...and yes, i know jones isnt showing his power yet.

j.jones in CF isn't as radical of an experiment as soriano in CF considering jones is/was a natural CF and looked pretty comfortable in his 2 games out there. his arm is also notably improved based on what he's showing early.

im still not comfortable with floyd or murton in RF, but pie staying up seems to keep jones in RF...

its justifiable to both get rid of pie and keep him. personally, i think he's being wasted up here at this point in his career based on what the club already has to work with.

Two home runs, two solo shots, blowout otherwise in progress ... yep, some things never change. =)

I don't hate Sammy, I'm just glad he's far away from here. Not looking forward to him torching Dempster in June, though...

an OF with 5 bats, i mean...

BOW BEFORE SAMMY!!!

sammy hit another.

Good for Sammy. I hope he hits 60.

http://www.jeff-samardzija.com/blog.asp

there is a nice entry in sam's blog about his decision....

I love this BS that Sammy only hits home runs in blow outs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Game 1 2003 NLCS. While there are tons of examples, can you find a more pressure packed situation than tying the game in the ninth in the freaking playoffs?

Pie turning out to be scout's dream

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...

This reads like the Cubs PR department wrote it. Not the kind of thing you put out if you're going to send the kid down.

crunch:

his arm is also notably improved based on what he’s showing early.

I can't get on board with this statement. It seems like even on routine catches, where there isn't a play, he'll still miss the cutoff guy, throw it into the ground, throw it to non-existent infielders, etc. I like Jacque and everything, and I'm totally cool with him in CF, I'm just saying, you take the good with the bad with him and his arm is still pretty bad.

I agree cwtp. That does not appear, to me, like something they would release if they were planning on sending him down soon...

Chad-

"I love this BS that Sammy only hits home runs in blow outs."

That's White Sox fan talk. Point it out to someone who really does it lately, Jim Thome.

torri hunter hit in the face with a 90mph fastball, tried to charge the mound and collapsed.

now he could get a suspension and a serious injury.

hope he's okay.

3 stitches on the inside of his mouth...damn.

at least he didnt get a broken nose or loose teeth.

Jace, Did you like the part where Michael Barrett says Felix Pie's throw from center was clocked at 105 MPH?.

Yeah, I thought that was just a BIT over the top.

Think he can pitch middle relief?

Here is a story about Felix Pie beating up 6 guys who tried to steal some old lady's purse

www.completebullshit.com

While we're on the topic of bullshit...
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/mlb_cred...

I wish....

ZHL:

Think he can pitch middle relief?

Or catch?

"torri hunter hit in the face with a 90mph fastball, tried to charge the mound and collapsed.

now he could get a suspension and a serious injury.

hope he’s okay."

Hope he's okay too. But a guy might want to think twice about being a smart ass. The champagne he sent over to the Royals probably got him clocked.

BTW Sosa hits a homer in his 44 baseball stadium (Jacobs) which is now a new record.

Congrats Sammy!

was about to mention that, there's only 2 current stadiums he hasn't homered in yet, RFK and the new Busch.

Of course, as luck would have it, the Rangers do not play the Cards this year. I like inter-league play, I HATE how it's executed.

I don't think that was a case of retaliation for the Dom....Greinke caved in Jason Bartlett's back in with a FB a few hitters later.

btw, so far Mirabelli has said that he doesn't even know who G.Thorne is and that he's "full of shit" for the Schill bloody sock statement.

Millar, Mientkiewitz, Gammo and Francona have all issued statements today denouncing Thorne's comment. Gammons noted that Mirabelli has a sarcastic sense of humor and feels Thorne didn't pick up on it. So it sounds like either Thorne isn't a fan of Schilling(perhaps he's a staunch democrat), or Schill went smug Curt and big-timed him in an interview.

CWTP: In Florida Marlins news (Hendry stocks their pitching staff), Ricky Nolasco is on the DL with an era of 20.09; Sergio Mitre is on the DL with a 3.97 ERA and 0-2

However, R. Pinto is off to a nice start in relief, and will probably go on the DL, with a 1.37 era.

To be continued...

Oh - and in case you don't remember - the Cubs did not sign Juan, "I gotta get my AB's" Pierre

thnx for the codes wes, but apprently they're different on a mac...

I figured it out sort of...

I'm confused? The story as I'm told was that Hunter offered them 4 bottles of Dom if they swept the Tigers and handed the Twins the Central. Well, the Royals did and Hunter made good. Why would the Royals be mad? Am I missing something?

why would the Royals care about Torii's champagne scandal? They were going to get the champagne. Tigers would supposedly be the pissed team, although I doubt anyone really cares.

Actually the Royals DID get the champagne, that was the problem.

I hope Selig does not suspend him, it was an innocent mistake and he and the Twins owned up to it right away and got the champagne back.

As I heard it, it was an obscure and old rule that penalizes a player who sends a gift to a team as a result of another team's victory over a rival.

Oh - btw - I heard hime interviewed by Dan Patrick and I'll corroborate it was bottles of Dom that ran "about $500"

Rome was talking about it. He said in the rule book that what Hunter did is punishable by a THREE YEAR SUSPENSION. I hope Selig overlooks that and slaps Hunter on the wrist with a small fine.

a THREE YEAR SUSPENSION???

Dude - that's C o l d!

You don't seriously believe that he'd do that to one of the game's most gregarious and well-liked players - do you?

Not I.

"corroborate"

How do you spell this word?

Regarding Pie the option of sending Pie down:

I've seen a lot of Cubs "prospects" and learned long ago not to get excited. From the immortal Pat Bourke, who had a hitch in his swing so bad it looked like he'd separate his shoulder on every swing -- before the actual swing, to the beloved Gary Scott. The last prospect I got excited about was Grace. Before that, Lee Smith.

This is my first time since those two. Even when Pie strikes out and looks bad, he never really looks clueless.

To those who think it's an option to send him down and revert to one of the worst defensive outfields in baseball, I doubt I can change your mind if you think Jones is really a better option out there. This kid is already a better player than Jones, and if you believe otherwise, nothing I say will convince you otherwise. I'm not a Jones basher whatsoever, and I despise the way he's been treated in Chicago. But he is really a very mediocre ball player. Ask yourself this. When there are men on base and Jones comes up to the plate, do you say, "great!?"

Jones has 3 RBI this year. His RISP is .188.

Pie has shown enough in the minors. I don't want this team sending him down to make room for a guy like J Jones.

Who said Sammy was done? Raise your hands.

http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/0...

Derek Zumsteg of U.S.S. Mariner and now the Cheater's Guide to Baseball author (blog and book) broke the story actually. (Derek kindly did a Q&A about Lou Piniella for us if you all recall that)

Torri had some harsh words for him on XM radio the other morning.

"I love baseball. I love playing it and everything that it represents. There hasnt been one day where I question the decision that I made. Im the happiest that Ive been in a long time, and I wouldnt give that up for anything. Warm sunny days, eating sunflower seeds and playing the game Ive loved since I was kid. Still have the same feeling everytime I take the field that I did when I was a kid playing little league. Its as simple as that."
-- Samardzija.

I kind of like the kid.

17 RBI’s in 20 games is good btw, not sure if you guys know that.”

it's surprisingly even more impressive considering that TEX has hit Catalanotto in the 2 hole most of the season and he's hitting .184, M.Young in the 3 hole at .191 and Tex at cleanup at .213. That said, I hope he fails a steroids test:).

Carlos-

Hand raised.

" Im the happiest that Ive been in a long time, and I wouldnt give that up for anything"

That and not having to catch a pass over the middle against an NFL defense.

I have an elbow up..I thought Sosa could contribute against lefties...but essentially was done vs righties...and it's sort of that way

R- 208/236/415
L- 286/412/571

I initally thought Sosa would be a decent platoon with Catalanotto at DH, but since both have been starting and Wilkerson has struggled again...well....

"You don’t seriously believe that he’d do that to one of the game’s most gregarious and well-liked players - do you?"

No way. This situation does not warrant that. But it's probably an old rule where in a time where it was much easier to persuade a player to do something for an incentive, say, throw a world series. There's tons old rules and laws on books all over and I think this is just another case.

Carlos:

Chad = hand NOT raised.

Back to MP, I think it is a shame the way he has been handled the last two years. Had they scoped him after his "shoulder flu" in the spring of 2005, we would know today what the results were. As it is, we can only cut his salary 20% (not that I care about the $, it's the Cub's $ after all) and have to wait until 2009 to be sure what the results of the surgery was. Even had it been done when he went down in August last year, we would know more sooner rather than later.

As to Bartman in the chat yesterday, I have a feeling that all of us were kidding, and it was stupid to blame the kid anyway.

"Had they scoped him after his “shoulder flu” in the spring of 2005, we would know today what the results were."

I believe that the PLAYER has to want the medical intervention.

As far as we know, and it has not been inferred otherwise as far as I am aware, Prior and Daddy Prior never opted for this kind of an invasive procedure.

Now had CUBSTER been his doc, things would have been much different.

But, that's Prior's loss...

I think the entire Texas Rangers lineup has struggled except Ian Kinsler. They'll come around...

I have no idea in hell why Sosa's playing RF most days though...

I think Sosa puts up something similar to 2004
253/332/517 35 HR/80 RBI's

I'd just up the RBI's for the better lineup and he'll play more game (maybe).

"I think Sosa puts up something similar to 2004
253/332/517 35 HR/80 RBI’s

I’d just up the RBI’s for the better lineup and he’ll play more game (maybe)."

This would be the same if he were still in Cubbie Blue and it will still out-perform what we currently have in right.

As far as we know, and it has not been inferred otherwise as far as I am aware, Prior and Daddy Prior never opted for this kind of an invasive procedure.

And as far as we know, and it has not been inferred otherwise as far as I am aware, that Prior and Daddy Prior were ever opposed to this kind of invasive procedure either.

Do you really think that Prior and his father simply did not want a necessary procedure?

Do you really think that Prior and his father did not want Prior to pitch?

You have to be kidding me...

Now had CUBSTER been his doc, things would have been much different.

Yeah, Cubster would have scoped Prior's head, not his shoulder.

The Royals sent the champagne back to Hunter, unopened. There is no way Hunter gets suspended for even one game over that.

yeah, I wouldn't hate it if Sosa had come back but anything that ever went wrong with the Cubs in 2007 would have been blamed on bringing him back.

yeah but Kinsler hits behind Sosa so he hasn't been driving him in. For whatever reason Kinsler has still been hitting 6th or 7th..and often 9th vs righties.

I also have Sosa down for at least 4 premature eHOPulations that I've personally seen, including another last night.

Kinsler bats 2nd vs lefties usually, moved up to 7th vs righties finally, but has mostly been batting 9th vs them.

"so those rumors over the offseason that Prior never fully healed from that collision with Marcus Giles might have some merit judging by the surgery performed?"

2nd half 2003
G GS GF W L S CG SHO IP ERA H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP
11 11 0 10 1 0 2 0 82.2 1.52 67 14 14 4 16 1 95 2

CarGm TmG Date Opp DR GmReslt Pitcher Result IP H R ER BB SO
70 159 Sep 30 CIN 4 L 1-2 GS-9 9 3 1 1 1 16

...nope. Any other ideas?

God, he was good. What can I say? The curse is real.

Well, I'm not sure what field this came out of ...

The E-Man — April 26, 2007 @ 2:03 pm
CWTP: In Florida Marlins news (Hendry stocks their pitching staff), Ricky Nolasco is on the DL with an era of 20.09; Sergio Mitre is on the DL with a 3.97 ERA and 0-2

However, R. Pinto is off to a nice start in relief, and will probably go on the DL, with a 1.37 era.

To be continued…

Oh - and in case you don’t remember - the Cubs did not sign Juan, “I gotta get my AB’s” Pierre
__________________________________________

Yes, the Marlins are one of the teams I keep tabs on and their SP rotation has been decimated by injuries. Not sure what that has to do with Hendry's penchant for stocking their staff (as well as others)with our better minor league pitching. Last time I checked, Florida was using its relief pitchers more than any other team. Just look at the number of games Pinto has appeared in.....and he's been great so far.

But maybe Hendry did that kind of thing because Dusty said stuff like (and I paraphrase), Hill or Marshall will be in my rotation but not both of them at the same time. That would indicate we're rebuilding, not trying to win a pennant..

I kind of thought the results of Prior's surgery yesterday would do away with all of the finger pointing Prior has endured over the past could of years. And some people have admitted the error of their ways (i.e. Cubster and Joey from Iowa). But now people are starting to blame Prior himself for not having the surgery sooner. I don't understand that.

For two years (or longer), doctors have been telling Prior to just rest and rehab. As recently as two weeks ago, two doctors (I think Dr. Yocum was one of them) prescribed more rest for Prior and indicated that surgery was not necessary. Dr. Andrews was the first to recommend surgery and Prior consented.

If all of the doctors you see are telling the patient to just rest and rehab, and that surgery is not necessary, it's hard to blame the patient for not having surgery. I wish Prior's problems would have been diagnosed earlier, but I don't think there is anyone to blame, least of all Prior himself. The doctors ran the tests that were available, but they did not show the injury. Doctors aren't going to recommend surgery (at least early on) without some clear reason to do so. Prior can't be blamed for overruling the doctors and demanding surgery.

Oh my God, post #25.... I don't know how to say it in 'I want to be a doctor, but I wasn't smart enough to pass Latin lingo' but in netkid speak Billy Carrol was /pwned.

That last sentence should read:

"Prior can be blamed for NOT overruling the doctors and demanding surgery."

See, here we go again CWTP.

At the risk of being a complete asshole to everybody, you've got to stand up and proclaim to everyone far and wide that by blindingly standing behind for Mark Prior with no information or logical reasoning, that you were right and a medical doctor was wrong. Somehow your opinion, regardless of how poorly formed and thought out, ends up to be what happened. And at the risk of telling an actual medical doctor that he doesn't know what he's talking about, you're making sure we all are witness to the intellicent of you.

Give it up. I can't tell you how excited I am that we all now have to hear you stomp your foot and pout about why Sean Marshall isn't the 5 starter.

And the word "can" should read "can't." I'm done trying.

mmm blame.

let's act like what happened to prior is unique and never seen in baseball much more than a few overanalyzed things (see motto) on TCR.

god knows this is a once in a lifetime strike on MLB that has happened to prior. the doctors are baffled and so is most of the medical community at such a rare occurance.

now all the low-mid 20 year olds around can line up for career-extending and no-worries shoulder surgery. its the new tommy john...just scope and then pitch for 20 more years. im sure prior will be the first of a long line of pitchers to have this surgery and come back trouble-free setting a precedent for others who want to have this surgery.

...is that laying it on a bit thick?

intellect..

If you multiply the Cubs five outfielders home run totals by five, it is still less than Sammy Sosa's. Let's boo Derrek Lee out of town next!

Seriously. Sammy took one game off. Derrek took three weeks off when he found out his daughter had that illness. Let's get some perspective!

Boo Lee!

…nope. Any other ideas?

let's see what the doctor said with emphasis for Real Neal...

Could he still pitch effectively with this after the injury? Yes, at least for a while. Historically, dislocations were not operated on until recurring or chronic instability occurred which can develop over years.

Was it the only thing causing him problems? of course not...

Did it ever heal properly and could it have gotten progressively worse over time?

Seems that's very possible....

re:#149

WTF are you constantly trolling me with nonsense posts like that one?

I have no idea what you're talking about. And I don't recall ever blindsiding you with a post out of nowhere that calls you an asshole.

You are by the way.

Straw poll:

Raise your hand if you are annoyed by off days.

(hand firmly raised)

Oh boy. Here we go again... It's baseball, people.

That, among other things...
(hand raised)

Thanks again for the updates. When I read the initial report, I thought, that you could take every person off the street and probably do the same thing that Prior had done. Meaning, everybody has fraying of the rotator cuff. The Bankart thing makes more sense. And do they even do the thermal capsular shrinkages anymore? I haven't seen a patient with that ever.

Re: Tori Hunter
I recall reading that it was not uncommon - if not publicly known - back in the early decades of the 20th Century (pre- Black Sox) for players to take up a collection of money as a reward or incentive for teams playing a rival contender in a close pennant race.
One needn't think too hard to recognize the potential for mischief inherent in circumstances where this was tolerated.
I don't have a clue what the penalty is for this or if it's even mentioned in the rulebook or MLB bylaws, but there is a sound reason for it.
This is not to suggest that Hunter's act was comparable but the intent is similar.

Hmmm...amend "comparable" to "equivalent".

the "hunter incident" has been cleared by the suits anyway (minn and mlb brass)...he's gonna be fine...he's got a busted lip and a possible suspension to deal with that's more pressing.

Maybe I should turn my law degree in for a medical degree. I am glad the mystery as solved. The Prior I saw try to pitch against the Nationals last summer I could see had a bad arm (loss of command and power) that indicated a labrum/rotator cuff problem. He may come back and be an ordinary major league pitcher, but he will never be the same.

By the way, Paul Sullivan continues to report the story that Prior is somehow at fault for his shoulder blowing up on him. its not Tribune bias, just a "reporter's" bias about protecting guys who are good "sources" for stories while sticking to someone who never much gave him the time of day.

Paul Sullivan is insufferably impressed with himself, and is a condescending, pompous ass. One need only read his Q/A columns in the Trib.

GFFIF, I got the same impression reading his column about Prior.

And do they even do the thermal capsular shrinkages anymore?
------
Apparently they are less frequently done now as the followup data shows they tend to stretch out over time. You can tighten up the capsule quite alot with a Bankart alone, so it wouldn't make sense to do both. Just like doing a Bankart and a mini-open capsular shift didn't make sense to me.

ESPN is floating a rumor that Izturis is on his way out.

Unfortunately, I don't have ESPN Insider, but here's the link:
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors

cubster,

Really terrific stuff today.

The Izturis deal never made sense to me. I just wanted Hendry to dump Maddux for some A ball pitcher and try and get SD to pick up as much of his salary as possible. Just like he did with Walker. Getting a Neifi clone who had been injured most of the past 2 years and who still had some years left on his contract made no sense.

It is good to see Hendry react quicker to his mistakes...Good Luck Theriot!!

Wild Thing,

I also do not have Insider, but I would speculate that it might relate to the club option Izzy has for '08. The club can buy him out for $300,000 if they want. There was an article in the Trib this morning about just that:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sport...

Would not surprise me if your Insider rumor and the Sully article are connected.

Good, Hendry was a moron for taking on Izturis and his $4MM salary anyways. You can't convince me he couldn't have landed a decent prospect for Maddux as an alternative.

Izzy sux.

Wild Thing and Wes:

I do have Insider and Wes' interpretation is correct. Basically it says that if Theriot takes over at SS, the Cubs would likely buyout Izturis' contract for $300g instead of exercising the $5.45m in 2008.

Which is, of course, plainly obvious. ESPN Insider is, for some things, almost worth the amount they charge for it, but "MLB Rumor Central" certainly isn't one of them.

here's what it says about Izzy (aka, Neifi lite):

Short stay on the North Side?
Apr 26 - If Ryan Theriot takes over as the Cubs' regular shortstop, don't be surprised if the team lets Cesar Izturis go after this season. According to the Chicago Tribune, Izturis is in the final year of his contract, and the Cubs likely will give him a $300,000 buyout instead of exercising his $5.45 million option in 2008.

Interesting game so far in Memphis-- I-Cubs vs RedBirds.

I-Cubs up 5-0 on the btm of the 2nd.

Guzman pitching.

Guess who the starting CFer is for Memphis?

"Good, Hendry was a moron for taking on Izturis and his $4MM salary anyways. You can’t convince me he couldn’t have landed a decent prospect for Maddux as an alternative."

You can convince yourself that the world is flat too, but it wasn't going to happen. The only other alternative was to take Manny's plan and take a low A nothing + send some cash. It was either a salary dump or we take on the same money but with a play we MIGHT be able to use.

“Good, Hendry was a moron for taking on Izturis and his $4MM salary anyways. You can’t convince me he couldn’t have landed a decent prospect for Maddux as an alternative.”

Wasn't there a report that Hendry tried to get "decent" prospects from the Dodgers but they wouldn't budge?

I mean it's not like Hendry set out to land Izturis. Whether we should have agreed to take him on is one thing, but to suggest that we turned down "decent" prospects solely to land Izturis doesn't seem to be correct, at least given my recollection of the series of events leading up to that deal.

Colletti, local news here in LA, day of or day after trade said that they weren't going to part with any of their better prospect for Maddux, very much implying that's what was asked for...

that trade was more for Greg Maddux than the Cubs although I'm sure Hendry and Co. were expecting something from Izturis.

no matter how much any of us like maddux...at the time he was traded he was pitching some ugly baseball...and not just for a start or two...it was pretty badly downhill after the "miracle april" where just having maddux around was supposed to make every pitcher he talked to turn to gold.

Rick Ankiel.

no matter how much any of us like maddux…at the time he was traded he was pitching some ugly baseball…and not just for a start or two…it was pretty badly downhill after the “miracle april” where just having maddux around was supposed to make every pitcher he talked to turn to gold.
-----------------------

May ERA - 5.94
June ERA - 6.25
July ERA - 5.21

Throw those numbers in with his expiring contract and it's pretty easy to see why teams weren't beating down Hendry's door with offers for "decent" prospects.

I can't fault Hendry for picking up Izturis at that time.

Who were our alternatives at SS? Cedeno? Theriot certainly did not project to be our starting SS two years ago.

Theriot certainly did not project to be our starting SS two years ago.

Your point still stands, but it was more like 8 or 9 months ago, not two years ago.

hendry took a shot at a market-cheap SS locked into 2 cheap years. right now he's losing that shot...

he probably could have gotten some A/AA-baller fringe "top 30" type prospect, but whatever...he took his shot given the 07 FA market for SS and what he already had around.

Will Carroll just referred to Cubster--sort of--on tonight's Sports Central show (WGN Radio) with Dave Kaplan. Speaking of Prior injury, he said "some doctor out there was reporting that Prior's shoulder injury was due to his collision with Marcus Giles. That's pure bunk." Not sure if this supercedes Will's offer (see comment way above) to have Dr. Hecht "email me directly any time."

not hearing it myself, how did Will get that Dr. Hecht was "reporting" that the injury was due to the collision.

That's a bit of a leap....

Honestly, I didn't even follow the medical terminology close enough to understand what the disagreement concerned, but assuming there is a substantive disagreement, isn't it fairly regular for people with medical opinions to disagree?

I mean, isn't that what got Prior strung along in this situation in the first place?

Given that this is just a message board, maybe I'm misinterpreting the manner in which Carroll made that statement Cubnut, but it sounds to me like he's an arrogant ass.

He didn't expound on the point. He just went into his description of the procedure Dr. Andrews performed.

LNL--The Carroll did come off as highly dismissive, which, once again, seems ironic given the way in #69 above, he acknowledged that Dr. Hecht--a trained physician--might be commenting from a greater body of knowledge that he was.

Sorry. "The Carroll comment did come off..."

Guzman must've been on a pitch count. They pulled him after he struck out a better in the 5th-- 76 pitches. He was in-line for the win (I-Cubs are up right now, 5-2) but he got yanked.

Guzman wasn't effecient, but it's a big improvement on his first start. For the game:

4.1 IP, 4 H, 2 ER, 0 HR, 0 BB, 5 K

The BB/K numbers are encouraging.

This lowers his Iowa ERA to 8.59 After 2 starts:

7.1 IP, 10 H, 7 ER, 1 HR, 2 BB, 5 K

LNL–The Carroll did come off as highly dismissive, which, once again, seems ironic given the way in #69 above, he acknowledged that Dr. Hecht–a trained physician–might be commenting from a greater body of knowledge that he was.
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It would also be ironic if, right after dismissing Cubster's hypothesis, he used the additional knowledge he gained from Cubster today (Post #69) while describing the procedure performed.

I wouldn't accuse him of that. He basically reiterated what he wrote at Baseball Prospectus; that Prior's injuries resulted from over-use. Plain and simple.

Wasn't Carroll a regular at TCR at some point? Or am I thinking of a different BPer?

Can I ask you a Q, Cubnut? I like your blog, but I can't help but wonder why you don't post all that quality content on TCR -- you know, to reach a larger audience and the things that come with that.

I don't know about TCR, but he use to write at all-baseball. He's good buddies with Ruz actually.

But yeah, that went down weird.

he could of at least said "some doctor at the best cubs fan site on the net, The Cub Reporter (mvn.com/mlb-cubs) is reporting".....

I don't ask for much.

needs more straight pimpin

How can Will Carroll dismiss Cubster's hypothesis that Prior has been injured since his collision with Marcus Giles, but then propose his own hypothesis that Prior's injuries are from overuse? What is he basing that on? Does he have any evidence to back up his hypothesis or dismiss Cubster's? At least Cubster's hypothesis is based on his belief that Prior's injury was caused by trauma. What is Will's based on?

"What is Will’s based on?"

Belief that Prior's injury was caused by overuse.

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