Game 25 Thread / Cubs @ Pirates (2 of 3)

Game Chat Ted Lilly vs. Tony Armas Jr. Lineups:
Soriano LF Duffy CF
Floyd RF Wilson SS
Lee 1B Sanchez 2B
Ramirez 3B Bay LF
Barrett C Doumit RF
Jones CF Bautista 3B
DeRosa 2B LaRoche 1B
Izturis SS Paulino C
Lilly P Armas P
Return to Homepage

Comments

may is here time for a winning streak,
my guess would be the fonz gets on
the home run board finally

tonite would be a good time for any outfielder to
hit one
whatta ya know 1st batter

Cub's lineup... going to show Armas Jr. how difficult it is to put them on with the BB.

Ugliest... uniforms... ever...

again, just where would this club be without Cesar's wizardry at SS?

So I guess it's now cool to just take out the 1B

OH MY GOD. i hate izturis. his so-called brilliant defence just cost us another run.

Can we once and for all drop the prefix 'gold glover' from Izturis' name?

how about former cub that sounds better.

What's up with Jacque Jones' throwing? Last Wednesday night he uncorks a bullet one-hop to third from deep right at Wrigley. Now tonight he nails Armas at the plate on another one-hop throw from center. 2 weeks ago we were hearing about ppl. running on his arm and I assume he must be showing his old scatter arm (if not his reportedly injured noodle arm of last year). Makes me think of Az. Phil's reports from ST noting good throwing from Jacque. I haven't watched enough games on the tube to observe how he has been throwing throughout this first month. Anybody have a good, comprehensive take on Jacque's arm this year?

It's stronger this season..it's still not always very accurate.
It was a nice throw to the plate tonight though.

Getting beat up by the Pirates. I'm just trying to not break anything right now. There is still a lot of time though but this sucks pretty bad right now.

Zach Duke and Tony Armas -- two completely different pitchers, except that they both had huge ERAs and both toyed with this pathetic Cubs team.

Izturis is redefinign the term "worthless piece of crap" -- he has taken Neifi-ness to a whole new level.

Cubs again on their way to being at least 10 games out by Memorial Day -- another summer of meaningless baseball at Wrigley.

This just sucks.

Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing? The Cubs scoring runs off the opposing team's bullpen?

cliff floyd crushed that homer len kasper
said only 20 homers have gone in river
one on the fly i think floyd did it or came awfully close,finally some late inning runs one more
would have made me feel alot better though.

kasper said floyds homer bounced in, only
player to do it on fly tthe cubs own d. ward.

like it was ever in doubt. :)

so they freeze the game and pick it up tomorrow, right? that's the new rule assuming the delay goes for awhile.

Rob-

Is that the new rule?? Becuase my undestanding is that it goes back to the last full inning completed, which would be normal Cubs luck, and, hopefully, out of date....

Floyds ball left in about... half a second. i just kept hoping it'd stay fair

Billybucks...thanks for turning this game around.

Izturis, if he had made the 3rd out in the top of the 7th would have led to a rain delay as the crew chief was just itching to get out of the rain.

I think that's the new rule, they did it for the Brewers/Marlins earlier this year.

Cubster-

My pleasure.

Looking at the weather map -- it doesn't look like there will be any more baseball tonight.

Can anyone confirm the game will be continued tomorrow, or is this just an unbelievably bad break?

Yeah but wheren't they tied?

I am worried that it would revert back to the end of the 6th as well...

if they're suspending the game, it should be played tomorrow from where it is now, right?

1-2 count, 0 out 0 on, bottom 7, 6-5 cubs, howry pitching?

if it's anything other than that, the rule is unfair, and i would say the same if the cubs were losing....

I think you guys are right, only if it's tied.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070...

Potentially most consequential is the manner in which games that end in a tie, due to weather or other uncontrollable elements, will be resolved. While previously such games were considered official and replayed in their entirety from the beginning, hence they will be "suspended" and resumed at the point of stoppage.

On the other hand, why is it going back to the 6th? it's an official game, Pirates don't get a right to the last at-bat.

as I read it, it's a suspended game...it looks as if this rule was written with this 7th inning in mind.

4.12
SUSPENDED GAMES.
(a) A game shall become a suspended game that must be completed at a future date if the game is terminated for any of the following reasons:

(5) Weather, if a regulation game is called while an inning is in progress and before the inning is completed, and the visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead, and the home team has not retaken the lead

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official...

SUSPENDED GAMES.
(a) A game shall become a suspended game that must be completed at a future date if the game is terminated for any of the following reasons:

(5) Weather, if a regulation game is called while an inning is in progress and before the inning is completed, and the visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead, and the home team has not retaken the lead; or

(c) A suspended game shall be resumed at the exact point of suspension of the original game. The completion of a suspended game is a continuation of the original game. The lineup and batting order of both teams shall be exactly the same as the lineup and batting order at the moment of suspension, subject to the rules governing substitution. Any player may be replaced by a player who had not been in the game prior to the suspension. No player removed before the suspension may be returned to the lineup.
A player who was not with the club when the game was suspended may be used as a substitute, even if he has taken the place of a player no longer with the club who would not have been eligible because he had been removed from the lineup before the game was suspended.

The home team has batted five times. It's not a tie. This baby's official if they call it. It's a final.

At least that's my understanding.

so yeah, I think they just pick it up tomorrow before the regular game if it's called tonight.

Or.... maybe not. Was unaware of you're #5, there.

I don't think so Wes, check out the 2 comments above.

it's a regulation game but the Cubs took the lead in the top of the inning and the Pirates didn't get to bat yet.

4.12...
(c) A suspended game shall be resumed at the exact point of suspension of the original game. The completion of a suspended game is a continuation of the original game. The lineup and batting order of both teams shall be exactly the same as the lineup and batting order at the moment of suspension, subject to the rules governing substitution. Any player may be replaced by a player who had not been in the game prior to the suspension. No player removed before the suspension may be returned to the lineup.
A player who was not with the club when the game was suspended may be used as a substitute, even if he has taken the place of a player no longer with the club who would not have been eligible because he had been removed from the lineup before the game was suspended.

sorry Rob...not trying to duplicate but I hate reading the rulebook (and expecting to under stand it simultaneously)

The doctor and I are so on this. :)

weather map don't look so hot, I assume this will get postponed until tomorrow.

So I assume they play the whole 9 innings right? not just the bottom of the 7th?

Rob and Doc,

Thanks for the ruling.

Do we know if they'd pick up the game at 6:05, or will they try to get the suspended game in before the scheduled first-pitch?

Len Casper just came on during rain delat theatre, confirming that if the rain doesn't stop they will declare this a suspended game. If they play tomorrow, the game will be resumed, otherwise on the next trip to Pittsburgh.

BTW, it's still raining. If it's suspended, the rain checks won't be valid for the resumption. Sheesh.

Tomorrow's game starts early, 11:35 in Chicago (12:35 in Pitt).

6:05?

tomorrow's game is 11:35 central

doesn't answer the question, but since it's so early (12:35 pitt) i would guess they just start from the 7th at that time

yeah I'd guess they just start at the same time, Cubs have a day off Thursday, Pirates play @ Milwaukee at 7pm Central.

Brewers beating the Cards again....

nolasco got the win...

5 ip, 5 K, 1 ER vs the mets

My bad-- I was forgetting that tomorrow's an early game.

Does anyone know what the weather forecast is like for tomorrow?

yo, what did they just say about TV coverage when and if the game resumes?

Rob-

Great work on the rules! A relief -- and, it sounds like they pick it up with the Cubs leading 6-5 in the bottom of the 7th.

TCR is a full-service provider!

Sorry for the earleir vent, but it had to come out....

weather for the rest of the night is ugly, pretty good for tomorrow though

How about that pitch Lilly used to get Bay out in the first? That, my friends, is an example of a ball being so fat the batter can't believe his eyes. He stood there stunned that Lilly threw that fastball where he threw it. Bay was like, "oh no you just di-int!"

Mr. hughes with one of those games where no one reaches bases safely via a batted ball so far though 6.1 IP

through 6.1 IP

and I think Hughes hurt himself...

yeah, another hamstring injury for a Yankee pitcher...uncanny.

still a you know what through 7....

and it's over, Blalock with a leadoff double to leadoff the 8th

double for blalock breaks up the nono

and yeah, can't believe the yankees first laugher in a while has a sour note for the yanks.....people around here are in dire straights....

mini-doubleheader tomorrow it looks like for the cubs.....let's go.

So it looks like might win TWO games tomorrow.

:)

That sixth inning was HUGE.

And all we need is for Pie to contribute in some way in the game (replace Murton defensively? pinch-run?) and the whole Five-Headed Outfield Monster gets in on it.

Looking ahead - Angel Guzman got roughed up tonight for seven earned in three innings; Sean Marshall goes for Iowa tomorrow...

thnx for the update on Angel, not for the bad news though...

well that should make Sunday interesting, of course they don't actually need a starter until the 12th, so maybe they'll keep putting it off.

there's always cotts...not like the 3-lefty pen has been a needed attraction so far...they wouldnt miss one joining the dugout crew of starters.

Can we hurry up and bang this thing please? The radar's a joke right now. Let's call this baby.

They'll play the end of the game beginning at 12:30pm on Wednesday.

the cubs' dominance in 1-run games suggests this one's in the bag.

Oh no you DI-INT just say that, damn you eli, cruel sarcasmaster. I choose to hope, how misguided it may be.

I am in laughing hysterics about Hughes. Tough luck for the kid, seems like a nice guy. But........ HA HA HA HA HA HA. YANKS suck!!!!!!

Yeah, he's out 4-6 weeks with a hamstring strain. That's just rough.

Yo Rob, I was driving home on the 101 and saw a car with Illinois plates and a Marquette sticker and I thought maybe it was you. Then I realized that I was in the Valley and you don't have any Valley cred and are not allowed there. Sorry bro.

Angel Guzman is all stuff, no performance. He is Juan Cruz, the Sequel. Meh.

Sean Marshall OTOH has shown that, if healthy, he can get big league hitters out. I think I'd give Marshall the 5th starter chance before Guzman.

That 5.59 ERA and 1.52 WHIP really convinced me that he could get guys out too, Eric.

Yo Rob, I was driving home on the 101 and saw a car with Illinois plates and a Marquette sticker and I thought maybe it was you. Then I realized that I was in the Valley and you don’t have any Valley cred and are not allowed there. Sorry bro.

Like Johnny Drama I only go into the valley from Oct to Feb and for work. Neither of which occurred today. Say hi to the porn stars.

Had to give up the Illinois plates years ago as is....

HEY! Drama comes over for sushi too!

Great article over at THT about Phil Hughes mechanics.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/if-...

For a Cubs twist, I think Z is facing the exact opposite of the problem discussed. He was better in his start in the StL, but on the whole, the slot has been considerably lower. He's having the Schilling problem. A lot of his fastballs are running inside to right-handers. Having a hard time controlling it.

How about this sportsfans, lets play the what if card right now.

IF we hold this lead and win the nightcap
IF Cinnci loses

We are 1/2 game out of second place.

I know, I know, big IFs but its not impossible.

I don't like our matchup in the later game but, Snell is due to blow up, right? And he's not a soft tossing lefty. So we got that going for us.

Which is nice.

"IF we hold this lead and win the nightcap"

The second game starts 30 minutes after the first one ends.

I'm not necessary recommending it, but I wonder if Lou has thought about having Marquis come out and "start" the suspended game, and then have him keep pitching into the second game. He wouldn't have to worry about buring through or re-using releavers in game 2.

The last suspended game I remember watching, Gardenhire did that trick with Lohse. During a suspended game at the metrodome a couple years ago, Lohse started the 10th inning of a suspended game, and then continued as the starter of game 2.

I think I only remember it because I found it so funny that the Twins had to suspend a game inside the dome.

I know, I know, big IFs but its not impossible

You can't spell "lifetime of crushing disappointment" without I-F.

I wonder if Lou has thought about having Marquis come out and “start” the suspended game, and then have him keep pitching into the second game.

Yea... I wondered the same thing.

Not a bad idea Bleeding Blue ... Pat was talking about an old Brewers-Sox game he called where Seaver did something similar (actually got 2 wins that day). The problem is, of course, if Marquis gets tattooed, the whole pen will get eaten up. And if he can't last 3 innings against the Pirates or it goes extras, the Cubs are really up a creek.

From the Daily Southtown:

"Angel Guzman tuned up for his start Sunday against Washington by getting roughed up for seven runs in three innings for Triple-A Iowa on Tuesday against Nashville. In three starts for Iowa, Guzman has a 12.19 ERA."

YUCH!

Gooz seems to suffer from performance anxiety.

When there's no pressure (i.e. long relief), he looks good against MLB hitters.

When the pressure is on (going for a spot in the roatation), he looks terrible against AAA hittters.

It's understandable, but a shame. He clearly has the ability, but maybe not the make-up.

No way would Marquis start the suspended game and then just keep going in the second game. There will be a fair amount of time before the last pitch in the first game and the first pitch in the second game. No, absolutely no way do the Cubs or any other team with sense put a starting pitcher through something like that.

I went to the Iowa game last week when Guzman started here in Memphis. The biggest problem I saw with him is endurance. He stayed in the 92 range most of the time. Getting up to 95 once and 94 a few other times. However by the time the 5th rolled around he was sitting at 88 on most pitches. He was pulled in the 5th after 74 pitches. So it wasn't like he should have been gassed. He just wasn't able to maintain velocity. I hate to say it, but it seemed to forbode a move to the bullpen in Gooz's future. Not that the pen is really a bad thing. It's just not a valuable to the big club if he can't start.

as valuable, sorry

Last night on Baseball tonite Karl Seacrest...I mean Ravich wondered if Hughes would be "charged with a hit" if Meyers came in and gave one up to the batter Hughes could not finish off.

Idiot.

Then he reminded us how Buerhle had "a perfect game against the Rangers" a few weeks ago.

Two chances to blow it today.

Yeaaaaah...!

"It’s understandable, but a shame. He clearly has the ability, but maybe not the make-up."

I would tend to agree with this based on the time I have seen him attempt to start at the MLB level.

I'm trying to set my Tivo from the office...Does anyone know how they're handling the games today on Comcast? It says they're showing the Sox at 2:30, so if they cut away, has anyone heard what channel the Cubs might be bumped to?

aaronb — May 2, 2007 @ 7:24 am
I went to the Iowa game last week when Guzman started here in Memphis. The biggest problem I saw with him is endurance. He stayed in the 92 range most of the time. Getting up to 95 once and 94 a few other times. However by the time the 5th rolled around he was sitting at 88 on most pitches. He was pulled in the 5th after 74 pitches. So it wasn’t like he should have been gassed. He just wasn’t able to maintain velocity. I hate to say it, but it seemed to forbode a move to the bullpen in Gooz’s future. Not that the pen is really a bad thing. It’s just not a valuable to the big club if he can’t start.

===============================

AARON B: That's fairly typical for a pitcher getting stretched out as a starter. Hitting a wall at pitch #74 in the 5th inning happens in ST all the time, and that would be especially true for a guy who was prepped as a reliever for '07 suddenly getting moved into the starting rotation.

I would wait to draw any conclusions about Gooz until after his next start, which hopefully will be for the I-Cubs at New Orleans on Sunday night rather than at Wrigley Field vs the Nats.

As for alternatives to Guzman, I doubt that the Cubs will recall Sean Marshall until he proves he's 100%, and that will take a few starts. Carlos Marmol could be a possibility, depending on how he throws in his next start.

And Wade Miller is eligible to be reactivated from the DL next Tuesday, and he could get a minor league rehab start someplace this weekend (Saturday or Sunday) and could conceivably find himself back in the starting rotation again on Friday May 11th (between Hill and Lilly) if the Cubs aren't happy with their other options.

Miller-
"and could conceivably find himself back in the starting rotation again on Friday May 11th "

Oh God no, he needs to go away in a car driven by Izturis

they shouldnt be happy with their options.

Nice to see Soriano break his cherry with a HR. And at least the Cubs finally got a break with the new rule changes getting the game to start from where it left off instead of the Cubs losing the game. Maybe this is the break, along with Soriano getting off the snide, to get the team rolling. They got easy competition over the next 10 days...LET'S GO!!!

In Guzman's outing last night at Des Moines, he threw 76 pitches in just three innings. Since he had an easy 1-2-3 1st inning (three ground outs) where he probably threw (at most) 15 pitches, that means he threw at least 60 pitches combined in the 2nd and 3rd innings, and his log shows that he gave up his two bases-loaded XBHs (the bases-loaded double with two outs in the top of the 2nd was by the Nashville pitcher!), probably somewhere around pitch #25-30 in each inning. He appeared to hit the wall and totally lose command with two outs and nobody on base in the top of the third (gave up a single, HBP, two BB, and a bases loaded triple), probably starting somewhere around pitch #50.

So he is clearly not stretched out as a starter yet. It was exactly the type of performance you see in ST when a pitcher is pushing his pitch count.

Guzman last night:

Nashville Top 1st
Crabbe grounds out 4-3 (one out)
Anderson grounds out 6-3 (two outs)
Braun grounds out 4-3 (three outs)

Nashville Top 2nd
Nelson grounds out 6-3 (one out)
Abad walks
Rottino singles to LF, Abad to 2nd.
Chavez grounds out 3-1, Abad to 3rd, Rottino to 2nd. (two outs)
Barnwell intentionally walked, bases loaded
Jackson (the Nashville pitcher) doubles to LF, Abad, Rottino, and Barnwell score, Jackson out at 3rd 7-6-2-5 (three outs).

Nashville Top 3rd
Crabbe strikes out swinging (one out)
Anderson lines out L-5 (two outs)
Braun singles to CF
Nelson hit by pitch, Braun to 2nd
Abad walks, Braun to 3rd, Nelson to 2nd
Rottino walks, Braun scores. Nelson to 3rd, Abad to 2nd,
Chavez triples to CF, Nelson, Abad, and Rottino score
Barnwell strikes out swinging (three outs) .

AZ Phil - Aside from the obvious ones, another negative consequence of Guzman's poor starts for Iowa is that they haven't been able to serve the purpose of stretching his arm. He's been so shaky that he really hasn't elevated the pitch count much from start #1 to start #3 last night. As for Marmol, his first three starts were all featured solid command. He was consistently throwing two thirds to three quarters of his pitches for strikes, and his K/BB ratio was on the order of 6:1. Alas, his last two outings have seen a reversion to old form; good stuff, no command - so he may not be exactly ripe for the picking this weekend either, although his pitch count has risen from the high 60's to the 90-100 range over the course of his five starts...O'Malley was off to a good start [ERA hovering around 2] until being left out in the storm last time out to absorb an 11 hit, 10 run pounding in 2+ innings which may have him reduced to a sniffling puddle of goo right about now...maybe the Cubs will go to a ST approach to Sunday's game depending on bullpen workload leading up to the weekend...

oops - i was collecting thoughts as you were posting...excuse redundancy MR. Phil...

Mike: I think the Cubs will just go with Zambrano-Hill-Lilly this weekend, and then after the off day on Monday, go with Marquis-Zambrano-Hill Tue-Wed-Thu, and then come back with either Guzman, Marmol, or Miller (TBD) on Friday 5-11 at Philadelphia, followed by Lilly and Marquis.

Neal Cotts could be another option for the #5 slot, but he's nowhere close to being stretched-out as a starter, and the Cubs really can't afford to have Cotts start three or four games where he throws maybe three or four innings while trying to get his pitch count elevated.

Cotts does have minor league options available, and the Cubs could send him to Iowa for 19 days or less (which would not affect his MLB service time or use up a minor league option). but I doubt that the Cubs would send him to AAA to get stretched-out and elevate his pitch count unless they are absolutely convinced that he is their best option as the #5 guy. Plus, Cotts has pitched well out of the pen, and I'm not sure who would replace him.

Clay Rapada just has not pitched well enough at AAA to warrant a call-up, although he has been pitching better lately.

Rapada vs LH: 4.1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 3 BB, 7 K
Rapada vs RH: 7.0 IP, 10 H, 7 R, 3 BB, 4 K, 2 HR

Quite obviously (and I saw this in ST, too), Rapada is STRICTLY a LOOGY, and if and when he is recalled, he would have to be used only against left-handed hitters. With his sidearm sling, he's death on left-handed hitters, but MLB-quality right-handed hitters will murder him.

Phil, Is it normal to see that big of a velocity drop in Spring Training? It was noticeable, both to the eye. And the stadium gun. As we have talked on the board before. There arent many pitchers that can lose 5-6 MPH off of their fastball and still survive.

Great Post:

"Brick — May 2, 2007 @ 6:35 am
I know, I know, big IFs but its not impossible

You can’t spell “lifetime of crushing disappointment” without I-F."

aaronb — May 2, 2007 @ 10:19 am
Phil, Is it normal to see that big of a velocity drop in Spring Training? It was noticeable, both to the eye. And the stadium gun. As we have talked on the board before. There arent many pitchers that can lose 5-6 MPH off of their fastball and still survive.

==============================

AARON B: Yes. The main thing with elevating pitch counts and getting stretched-out enough to become a starter isn't just a matter of throwing more pitches with each outing, it's throwing more pitches each outing without losing command or velocity as the number of pitches increase.

What sometimes is missed is that each pitcher gets "stretched-out" at a unique rate. Some can get stretched-out quickly, while others take longer. That's why Spring Training lasts six weeks.

It appears that Guzman is stretched-out to maybe 60 EFFECTIVE pitches right now. When he goes over that number, especially if he throws more than 20 pitches in an inning, he hits a wall, losing velocity and command. Possibly because of his history of shoulder problems, he probably will require more time than the average pitcher to get fully stretched-out as a starter. The Cubs should have sent him to AAA out of ST and used him as a starter right from the gitgo. They are paying the price for that now. He's obviously not ready to be a stater yet, and it cannot be determined at this time when he will be ready.

Cubs win! Now to run home to watch the next game. We are going to win that one too, Marquis it down!

I think most of us pined for the cubs to send Guzman to Iowa for that purpose before the year. It is amazing to me how a professional baseball team can make so many mistakes. While novice fans usually choose a correct way to run things. Are they trying to re-invent the wheel?

if it helps, Marshall threw 5 innings of shutout ball with 1 bb, 5 k's, 7 h

and Guzman gave up all his runs in the 2nd and 3rd inning yesterday all with 2 outs.

X
  • Sign in with Twitter