Game 93 Thread / Giants @ Cubs (3 of 4)

Game Chat Matt Cain vs. Carlos Zambrano Lineups:
Roberts CF Soriano LF
Vizquel SS Theriot SS
Winn RF Ward 1B
Klesko 1B Floyd RF
Durham 2B DeRosa 3B
Lewis LF Fontenot 2B
Feliz 3B Jones CF
Rodriguez C Hill C
Cain P Zambrano P
Derrek Lee has dropped the appeal of his suspension and will begin serving it today. Why you might ask? He fouled a pitch off his shin that might make him sit for 2-3 days, so best to sit now (Thanks to reader cubswinthepennant for the tip). Why is Aramis sitting with Derrek Lee out? That I can't answer.
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Holy crap! This is a scary lineup. No Ramirez, or Lee, with Floyd and Ward both in the field... Let me be the first to give this lineup a hearty thumbs-down!

Why is Soriano hitting leadoff with Ram and Lee not playing? I'd hit him 3rd and go with the Cajuns at the top.

Apparently Dusty is back in Town to cover for LouPa's vacation.

Worst

lineup

ever

At least Hill is in there instead of Kendall. We need all the hitting help we can get.

needs more lineup bitching....

I think we can get us 10 runs if we complain enough. :)

Johann - You're kidding, right?
At least we know that Kendall is capable of hitting well...

Worst

lineup

ever

-----------------------
I don't see Izturis' name here, so it can't be THE worst...

Sure it's been covered before. But on Friday if:

Jacque
Fontenot
Theriot

Start when

Marquis

Pitches. Then we are 44% french. FWETFTMBW!

Wind is blowing out to CF at 12 mph...

Wow...this is a really interesting lineup.
Of course, the Cubs will score 7 runs today with this crap.
Ward, Hill, Jones in the same lineup...what a murderer's row!!

Johann - You’re kidding, right?
At least we know that Kendall is capable of hitting well…
______________________________________________

Well, only sort of kidding. I guess Kendall does have an OPS+ of 45 compared to Hill's 30. That's..better? I'm not sure if better is the right word here.

Z should be hitting 6th

Aaronb - that is the type of hard-hitting, substantive post that we are really beginning to expect out of you on a regular basis. Good Work!

I’m not sure if better is the right word here.

less craptacular?

Question: do club scouts share their reports with other clubs for strategic reasons? For example, would Cubs scouts give info on the Brewers to the teams on their schedule?

this lineup NEEDS Neifi's! bat if it's going to be the worst lineup ever.

I think the 1B-RF side of the field will be tilting downhill after this game

LouPa says Aram is sitting because this is a day game following a night game.

--according to Ron Santo.

figured they were resting his knee, but maybe Aramis could suck it up until Monday when there's a scheduled day off?

At least Lee will be back for the Cards series...

LouPa says Aram is sitting because this is a day game following a night game.

Does A-Ram think is in the forty and older club or something? He isn't Bonds...

if the appeal hadn't been dropped, I wonder if they really would have tried to hear DLee's side of the story just before the August Brewer's series.

Nipped that problem in the BUD.

Yahoo not working today...meh

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7032434?CM...

Dayn Perry says the Cubs need nothing...

I couldn't disagree more....

LMAO!!! I just now had the chance to check the last thread and saw Chad signing-in as "nicodemus".

And I see that there's already a 'Neifi' reference in this thread. It's gonna be a hot one in the city today!

Jace says:

July 18th, 2007 at 11:39 am

Aaronb - that is the type of hard-hitting, substantive post that we are really beginning to expect out of you on a regular basis. Good Work!
...................................................................................

Which post are you referring to Jace?

Expect to see Marquis pinch-hit later in the game when we need a quality bat in there.

"Z should be hitting 6th"

There is no reason why not.

So with Bond's ducking Z and his impending retirement/moving to the AL next year, when does he plan on teaching Z some respect?

at least floyd is back with his bat...ward/floyd back to back is easy prey for a relief lefty pitcher, though.

BWRAK! Don't forget about me! BWRAK!

I really wish the bozo(s) posting "worst lineup ever" would just shut the heck up. You want a bad lineup? Dusty trotted out this lineup on May 26, 2003 against the Pirates and the great Josh Fogg--a game that not coincidentally, given the lineup, the Cubs lost 10-0. If the pitcher is the 4th best hitter in the lineup, that's not good, right?

1. Tom Goodwin, RF
2. Alex Gonzalez, SS
3. Corey Patterson, CF
4. Moises Alou, LF
5. Hee K Me Choi, 1B
6. Ramon Martinez, 2B
7. Lenny Harris, 3B
8. Damien Miller, C
9. Kerry Wood, P

Is this a Split Squad lineup? Where/whom is the other half playing?

If Hendry is so close to trading Izturis as Levine suggets why dont they DFA and Bring up Murton for the reminder of the week atleast, because if Dero is playing 1b whose going to be right? Floyd or Pagan with Jones in center?

I sure miss Damian Miller

its a bad lineup. aram's out. at least d.ward isnt in RF...etc etc etc.

its not like its trotted out there everyday. hell of a time to give aram a day off and the lineup construction is suspect, but meh...whatever...

btw...since when does something bad make something not bad by comparing it to something worse?

"blah blah screwed up pardons."

"but clinton!"

"but, who cares."

"but...umm...clinton?"

"...."

The way Z looked in that first inning, the Cubs are going to need to figure out a way to actually score more than 2-3 runs today.

I have a bad feeling that's going to be asking for too much with this lineup.

As bad as the Cub's line-up is, it's no worse than the Giant's. wow they suck

giants lineup sucks by default...there's rarely anyone better to actually plug in that's on the bench.

Z is just going to have to provide his own offense.

The Giants TV guys just said that Z should bat 5th.

They have a lot of nerve picking on our line-up. It's still better than what they trot out there every day---with Bonds.

If Hendry is so close to trading Izturis as Levine suggets why dont they DFA and Bring up Murton for the reminder of the week atleast, because if Dero is playing 1b whose going to be right? Floyd or Pagan with Jones in center?

DFA Izturis and you're on the hook for the rest of his salary except the pro-rated minimum. Unless a deal is pretty much in place, you don't want to lose that flexibility. In Bowen's case, they said they were working on the deal since Saturday, not to mention he's making peanuts.

Of course they'll probably have to pay most of Izturis's salary as is, but you don't want to presume that. I also have no idea on how his club option/buyout works if he's DFA'ed. I assume the Cubs would be on the hook for the buyout.

Finally, a hit.

anyone know whatever happened to matt harrington?

...and for that matter, related but unrelated...anyone know what greg "toe" nash is up to?

I was in the middle of typing this...
Joke Jones, down 0-2, signature take to 1-2 then ...

From now on I am getting in Joke's face every at bat

Oh my god, Jacque actually contributed.

Mon Dieu!

Yummy rally we got going in the 4rth. Nice to also know my parakeet made an appearance in this thread as well. Thanks for bringing him out Chad.

Wow. That "hit" and run by Jones was so Little League.

Damn this crappy lineup.

If they aren't going to play Izzy, and they are on the hook anyway, then free up the roster spot, and take your medicine like a man Hendry!

Jacque Jones with a gift single!!! Whoo-Hoo!!!

You can't stop Koyie Hill !!!!

Hey Eric, I'd take that lineup from 2003 over this one.

this giants D is unbelievable. almost all the runs have benefited from it.

I think we found a worse defensive catcher than Barrett...whew, that guy stinks...

wow--
did they yank their catcher mid batter?

Holy crap! Jones and K Hill are carrying the team today?? That's a breath of fresh air...

I think we can get us 10 runs if we complain enough. :)

Almost there...

Pulled Z after 5 IP? 80 pitches???

Rodriguez got hurt on a passed ball, jammed a thumb or something.

harrington got released pretty early on I believe...

Why was Z pulled after allowing no runs and two hits in 5 innings and 80 pitches? He's not hurt, is he?

Aaronb - Sorry, I've been out. I was just giving you a little flack for your insightful comment #9.

I think Rodriguez was getting some heat exhaustion.

They yanked Z because it's hot as he-double-hockeysticks and no reason to get hurt.

What's not to like about this lineup? It's great...

You have

1) A "proven run producer" like Floyd
2) Team MVP Fontenot
3) co-MVP Theriot
4) Koyie Hill's off-the-charts signal calling that's obviously turning the offense into a juggernaut

Lee and A-Ram are just icing on the cake... give them 2-3 days off a week.

Jace — July 18, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
Aaronb - Sorry, I’ve been out. I was just giving you a little flack for your insightful comment #9.
..........................................................................

No worries Jace, I was just doing my best Harry Carey routine.

9 runs, 6 hits... That is not easy to do...

Gameday says it is 80 degrees... Isn't he Venezuelan?? I would think he has experienced a few thousand days hotter than 80 degrees...

Z was pulled because the inning went on for sooo long. I think Lou's reasoning was that there was enough of a gap between pitching for Z plus the nine run lead made it an easy call to yank Z and put Gallagher in.

Johann — July 18, 2007 @ 11:33 am
At least Hill is in there instead of Kendall. We need all the hitting help we can get.

I think we need to keep ragging on Hill. He's hitting more like Glenallen and less like Rich today.

The flip side is that some of this crowd would scream holy hell if Z hurt himself in the sixth. "Why was he even out there?!!"

Yeah, I buy the argument about the length of the inning. Not having been here while it was going on, I hadn't seen how long the Cubs had been up there...

ya, you pull z after 5 there simply cuz with a 9 run lead and a rested bullpen, give Z some beneficial rest. Same reason ARam isn't in the lineup. Its a long season. You do have to rest sometimes. And ARam has a history of getting his legs hurt.

All that said, this lineup was indeed scary. But this is what winning teams do. They find nutty ways to win even when they run out the craziest lineup ever.

And assuming we can hold a 9 run lead, Z will get his 12th win. 12-7 out of 21 starts. So he has had only 2 no decisions. Is it just me or is his record really abnormal? Last year he had 10 no decisions.

It was a good call to pull Z. With his recent pitch counts, it gives a him a bit more rest on top of it being a long inning there. Also, Hill is obviously pissed about Kendall coming over. A couple more games like this and he'll definitely have better numbers then Kendall.

Z also didn't get an all-star break like most other pitchers in the ML (and all pitchers on the Cubs).

Z also hit for himself and floyd was replaced by pagan, too.

at the very least pagan could have hit there.

Z likes his Abs. Lou was throwing the bigdog a bone

Anyone know why Lou let Gallagher bat for himself when Gallagher kind of struggled in the 7th?

Something cool...
Zambrano is 12-7 assuming we win.
The rest of our pitchers for the season are 37-37.
The five games we are over .500 can be seen b/c of Z

gallagher needs to pitch..he's supposedly the long-man as it is. he hasnt seen action in a while.

Gallagher needs to get back on the starters throwing program in Iowa. If someone happens to get hurt right now. Who do we have that could make a next day start? I sure as heck would rather it be Gallagher than Les Waldrond or Ryan O'Malley.

The rest of our pitchers for the season are 37-37.
The five games we are over .500 can be seen b/c of Z

that's a bit of a reach...

well I guess it's not if you still believe pitcher won-loss records mean a whole lot.

#76

Is that a joke? I mean...why would anyone care about that in a 9-0 game?

VORP for our SP's

Lilly 27.5
Z 24.2
Hill 23.3
Marshall 12.7
Marquis 11.1

probably doesn't count today though...

Sheffield/Cornelia — July 18, 2007 @ 2:44 pm
Anyone know why Lou let Gallagher bat for himself when Gallagher kind of struggled in the 7th?
______________________________________

9 run lead perhaps?

I'm a math guy, so ERA and W-L do mean a lot to me. I like workig with the numbers and seeing how to present them.

Gallagher also hit for himself, b/c we have 4 on the bench, backup catchers are not used unless they need to be, he hates Izturis, we have already used Pagan, and Ramrez is resting

but W-L record? It's just not a very good way to evaluate pitchers anymore.

this is so going to help our run differential. :)

I guess you are right. Today, they use WHIP and other stats that run support does not factor into like wins/losses

but W-L record? It’s just not a very good way to evaluate pitchers anymore.

And it hasn't been since about the 1920s.

Pat Hughes just said that Gallagher will have enough innings to close out this game to be credited with a save even though it is a blowout.

3 innings pitched in relief w/ lead = save

I’m a math guy, so ERA and W-L do mean a lot to me.

Uh... if you are a math guy, you should see why a W-L record tells us little about how well a pitcher has done.

yeah like VORP

but there are plenty of other ways as well.

Well, so there we have it... Just about everyone that we wouldn't normally expect to produce did, and we have yet further proof that Soriano needs Pie in the clubhouse to be worth much.

"well I guess it’s not if you still believe pitcher won-loss records mean a whole lot."

I used to love the "Win/Loss" stat. Then I kinda didn't. But now i like it again. I think it's huge. It's not the end all be all, but its a great stat.

I think it’s huge. It’s not the end all be all, but its a great stat.

So in April, when Z was 3-2, does that show that he pitched well?

Even though his era was 4.72?

Braves just lost a 15 inning marathon to the Reds...sweep!

Cubs tied for second in WC race, 2 behind SD.

I just think it is too early to be getting caught up in the WC standings... If the Cubs won, I am happy. That's all they need to worry about is winning. If they can just keep winning series, all that other stuff will be taken care of...

no dave. w/l does not tell the entire story. neither does era or whip. but when you put things together it starts to paint a nice picture.

There was some discussion about the concept of pitchers that pitch to the score and i am a firm believer of it. So i think that wins are great because they showed that:

A; You pitched 5 innings minimum
B: you left the game while ahead

sure, a good offense can bail you out. A good defense can bail you out too. But in the end if you amass a lot of wins, you're doing something right and putting your team in position to win the game.

Also, and you are going to love this, but certain pitchers INSPIRE their team to win. Certain guys are WINNERS and team respond to them. But there is no real stat for that one sooooo....

Lastly, i think it's fair to say that a guy who wins 20 games once in his career does not make him a hall of famer but a guy who wins 300 does. In the end, Wins + k's = hall of fame. No one really cares what your whip or your warp are.

Sure Chad... I don't disagree with most of that.

BTW... Ted Lilly is 9-4. I guess he could be the reason the Cubs are five over also... :)

fwiw, the team defensive efficiency behind all their starters has been amazing, they were all top 25 in the NL sometime last week.

Run Support paints a different picture. Rich Hill must not inspire his team to win. Maybe if he'd knock off the impersonations.

Lilly and Z are a combined +10 which means the rest of the staff is killing our won-loss record. Lou would be wise to go to a two man rotation.

just sayin' the stats back me up

Jace, it's just more fun when I can take sides in multiple games being played in a given day. It was weird to cheer for the Reds, but what the hell.

You're right that it's too early to obsess about it, but it's better than the Braves winning, so I say let's be happy about it.

But there, now I've posted two.

I could also be happy while not posting a comment about it. :)

I seem to have transposed my last two lines there.

Yeah, Andy. I hear you. Sometimes it just feels better to voice your enthusiasm, even though someone might call you on it. I am sorry for being that guy. I don't like being that guy. Where is Manny when you need him? or ST?

Thought here:

Jermaine Dye not happy that they resigned Buhrle and not him. Anyone want him in right field? I don't see why the Sox would want to give a him a long term deal anyway.

Thoughts?

Can we spin him for Jacque?

Also, the question came up in Parachat:

Who was the last Cub position player to pitch for the Cubs (1 pitch minimum)?

I think I have the answer.

Go.

Last position player to pitch: Larry Biittner? No, I'm sure it's happened since then. I'll say it was a no-hitter thrown by Fontenot, with Theriot catching.

Gaetti?

Dunston?

I thought I remembered it! Gaetti pitched an inning for the Cubs in 1999. Gave up 2 earned runs on 2 hits.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gaettga01...

Whether that was the last one or not, I don't know.

as far as my research went, that was what i came up with. However, it is nice to let others guess before you spoil it.

In case anyone is wondering, Gallagher got the save because he pitched at least innings in relief of Zambrano.

You're right - sorry guys. I was just overly proud of myself.

Doug Dascenzo deserves an honorable mention.

btw, Jace, you're not that guy. no worries.

"certain pitchers INSPIRE their team to win. Certain guys are WINNERS and team respond to them."

Hi Chad, I think we should meet sometime

^^^^

sorry couldn't resist

:)

A little googling shows that good ol' Carrie Muskrat posted the answer to our question last year:

"Regarding position players who have pitched for the Cubs, baseball historian Ed Hartig did some research. Since 1945, five position players have pitched for the Cubs. Gary Gaetti did so in 1999, Doug Dascenzo in 1990 and '91, Larry Bittner in 1977, John Upham in 1968, and Willie Smith in 1968."

Funny, I thought I remembered Keith Moreland logging an inning back in the mid-80's...

Not in his official stats, so either it was an exhibition game or I need to lay off the kool-aid.

/those aren't mutually-exclusive

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