Cubs to Recall Murton and Cherry

Paul Sullivan is reporting in the Chicago Tribune that Matt Murton and Rocky Cherry are being recalled. It seems likely that they will be replacing Jake Fox and Billy Petrick, although it is also possible that Mark DeRosa could be placed on the DL. Murton is hitting 340/406/617 (1.023 OPS) with five HR and 20 RBI plus nine doubles and a 10/12 BB/K ratio in 106 PA this month at Iowa, including an eleven game hitting streak and 16 out of 17. Over his last seven appearances, Cherry has thrown 9.0 IP, allowing two runs (both earned) and six hits, walking one while striking out 10. Also, Kerry Wood and Henry Blanco continued their rehab assignments at Peoria last night. box score Woody went one inning (12 pitches), allowing one hit and no runs with two strikeouts, while Hank White went 1-2 with a walk. Cubs GM Jim Hendry will be attending tonight's game at Peoria, presumably to get a first-hand look at the two rehabbing players. It is expected that Wood will be continuing his rehab next week at Iowa, but Blanco could be very close to returning to the big club.
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Comments

If Fox is sent down, he never really had a chance. He only really had 2 at-bats and I think no field time. No starts either. Oh well, go Murton!

Any thoughts about roster moves for blanco? Is this the end for Koyie hill?

AZ Phil-
Kyler Burke? Do you think that maybe he was rushed to A ball too soon?
He's been hitting pretty well at short-season Boise.

Koyie is out of options though.What happens if he is put on waivers? Does anybody really want him?

He only really had 2 at-bats and I think no field time.

Fox played 1b yesterday.

But I agree with you that he didn't get a chance, which is kinda' odd. Not sure what changed in the last week to make them want Murton over Fox (not that I am complaining). But then again, Fox may not be the guy going down.

And did anyone notice that K. Hill played RF last night?

Murton is hitting 340/406/617 (1.023 OPS)

That's fantastic. Murt realizes this doesn't actually help the Chicago Cubs, though, right? As far as I'm concerned, he's batting: 252/331/336 and can only play left field. Let's hope this is the Cub's showcasing Murt for the Reds.

fox should get his chances...the club knows they got an interesting power hitter without a position that its too early to just chalk him up to 1st. his C days may be done and it seems he's more cut out for 1st/LF/RF than 3rd...still gotta figure out exactly what fox's role is.

AZ -

I'm interested in who you feel our top prospects are at this point as well as the condition of the cubs farm system.

AZ Phil - I think that JF wants to know who you think the top prospects are... I got that feeling somehow...

JF - You are REALLY interested, aren't you!?

Can you hear me now, JF?

How about now?

Now?

Nice triple post. Must be using dil-up like me

Len Kasper made mention last night at the end of the game how 3 Cubs were playing a position at the moment that they had never played before at the major league level. As far as Hill playing RF, I think Pinella is just trying to see if he has any value anyplace else for when Blanco comes back up....maybe even as part of a trade?

My bad.

Go Cubs.

As far as Hill playing RF, I think Pinella is just trying to see if he has any value anyplace else for when Blanco comes back up….maybe even as part of a trade?

That would make a lot more sense if Hill had any value offensively. But you don't find new defensive positions for players who can't hit.

I don't get it.

Not that it is a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it just confused me.

Yeah, Rich, I could see that being a useful thing to know if the guy could hit and you were looking for a place to fit him into the lineup... But this guy can't hit. He is a good defensive catcher, and a black hole at the plate...

yeah, what dave said...

Dusty Baylor — July 27, 2007 @ 10:31 am
AZ Phil-
Kyler Burke? Do you think that maybe he was rushed to A ball too soon?
He’s been hitting pretty well at short-season Boise.

=========================

DUSTY: I believe the Padres were guilty of being overly-aggressive in promoting Kyler Burke.

He struggled with the AZL Padres (R) last year (209 BA with a 607 OPS with 56 K in 189 PA) and probably should have spent April-May '07 at Padres EXST and then been assigned to their Eugene club in the Northwest League, but instead they chose to assign him to Class "A" Ft. Wayne (MWL) on Opening Day in April.

Right now, Burke is where he should be (NWL), and although he started slow (0-15 in June), he got hot in July and is doing great.

I would expect him to go to the Arizona Instructional League after the season and then be assigned to Peoria in 2008.

Cliff Floyd is nothing more than a bench player anymore. I think its time to give Murton RF for the rest of the year.

Ofcourse if Murton does well people will again bitch that he didnt do it over a full season so we have no idea what to expect for next year.

Again signing Cliff was a huge mistake to Murton's development as a player. You simply don't take what he did last year and replace it with a crippled and washed up Cliff Floyd. Murton can't hit for power, we need FLOYD! Christ...187 AB's and 4 HR's? with a .755 OPS? Murton had an .809 OPS last year and was improving.

Not to mention the fact the Cubs are complaining about their ability to not hit LHP. People want Floyd around cuz he bats lefty...who really cares. He can't hit lefties to save his life (along with Jones)..meanwhile Murton crushes them and isnt to shabby against righties as well.

Floyd can't play better D, or hit better than Murton in RF. Just time to give him 100% of the AB's...and be done with it.

if not already mentioned, Lofton to the Indians seems close...

http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2007/07/clev...

problem is the murton that showed up this year was the one that showed up for a chunk of 06 that wasnt elevating anything. the ground-ball hitting murton isnt the one the team needs and given he's shown power to both fields anything less is underachieving on the level jones is showing this year. murton can/should do better.

I'm a K.Hill lover in a sea of K.Hill haters.

I could tell you why, but it would just make everyone pissed.

Yeah, MikeC, I agree. The only question in my mind is whether or not he will be given enough of a chance.... and I think that all hinges on whether he is able to perform on the first day he starts...

Proctor for Wiggington talks as well...

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07272007/sports/y...

I like that trade for the Yanks, believe it or not.

azphil...you know what happens if k.hill is put on waivers?

interesting post MikeC coming from the guy who likes to pimp RISP numbers...

I imagine you've looked at Floyd's this year.

doh...

Now that Murton is here, again, how much time does he actually get? Would he ever give Soriano a day off in left? Does Pagan lose backup time due to Murton? Murton probably won't play when DeRosa does, because they are both right-handed.

Rosenthal says Braves offered Salty, Matt Harrison and Elvis Andrus for Teix

Angels with Casey Kotchman, Nathan Haynes and Terry Evans but apparently have upped the ante and included one of Saunders, Santano or Nick Adenhart.

"If Meyers blows this lead I'm running out to the mound and punch him...it's gonna happen."

D-bag who attacked Randy Meyers on mound in 90's now catch phrase aficionado-

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/...

I'm John McDonough is pleased

Lofton to the Indians seems close…

Booo!!! Lofton was one of the very players that was realistically available that I would have liked to see the Cubs get.

meh, Ervin Santana not Santano

Rosenthal also says the Cubs along with DBacks, Dodgers and Braves still asking about Greinke although it's doubtful he'd get moved.

Virginia Phil... I am curious about why you like K. Hill so much. Not trying to start a fight, just curious what you see in him.

I see a catcher who plays average defense (at best) and poor offense.

What do you see?

that's a great story Jacos. Man I'd love to see the video of the forerarm shiver he got from Myers.

OMG MURTON!

Yeah, I'm with Rynox. I like Murton, but I'm not sure how he's going to thrive with the big league club if his oxygen tank (Wrigley) isn't acting as a hitters' park. Murton is hitting for a 403 OPS in Wrigley and for a 885 OPS on the road, in almost the exact same number of at-bats.

Last year, though, Murton couldn't hit a ball hard on the road for a .266/.328/.380 line, which shows you how fluky these lines are. But they do matter in yearly lines -- and Murton hasn't been able to hit a lick in Wrigley this year.

http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/ba...

Rangers desperate to rid themselves of Sosa.

Sad part is if there wasn't all that Cubs baggage with him, he'd be a great bench fit for the Cubs at probably a very low price.

Pimpin the times today-

Check out this article on Tony Gwynn getting called out by Mike Pagliarulo , Templeton, and Jack Clark for worrying about "getting hits" back in 1990-

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/deluca/486481,...

Called out by Templeton and Clark about how to play?

Unbelieavable.

btw on Murton...

what crunch said....

I haven't seen him in Iowa, but his swing was all out of whack when he was here. Pounding everything in the ground (once again). When he starts putting some loft on the ball, he's a lot more dangerous and the power shows up, like the 2nd half of last year. Not sure if just more playing time is the answer.

Ya not to bad....but i still dont like Cliff Floyd. And those numbers are certainly out of whack for his career.

Don't get caught up in the Neifi, Gaetti, etc. of guys who caught a spark and then fizzled out the rest of their career. That is the point Floyd is at....he isnt the same player he was, and he isnt going to get any better. He is only going to get worse.

Meanwhile you got a promising player like Murton. A broken down Cliff Floyd who can't take the field everyday and clearly on the downside? Or Murton who can take the field everyday and on the upside? The only thing holding him back is his inexperience in RF. Floyd's defense certainly isn't better. The man can't run for shit in the OF.

do you really think hendry can sit by and
not make a trade,that just isnt him he probally
is involved in many trade discussions.
hendry probally should stand pat.i just dont think
he can.

crunch — July 27, 2007 @ 10:37 am

fox should get his chances…the club knows they got an interesting power hitter without a position that its too early to just chalk him up to 1st. his C days may be done and it seems he’s more cut out for 1st/LF/RF than 3rd…still gotta figure out exactly what fox’s role is.

============================

CRUNCH: With Micah Hoffpauir out for the season (knee), Josh Kroeger out with an oblique strain, and Matt Murton getting recalled, Jake Fox should get plenty of PT at Iowa at both 1B and RF.

BTW, Matt Craig's name came up on the previous thread, and he is an interesting case.

He spent 2004 and 2005 at AA West Tenn and had a couple of good power years there, but got demoted to Daytona last year only because the Cubs wanted Casey McGehee to play 3B every day at Iowa and Scott Moore to play 3B every day at AA. (Such is the life of an organizational player).

The Cubs placed him on their AA roster prior to the Rule 5 Draft (so he could have been claimed in the minor league phase of the December '06 Rule 5 Draft for $12,000 and without any 2007 roster restrictions), but he went unclaimed.

The Cubs assigned him to AA again this season, and he (once again) has played very well there before (finally!) gettinga shot at AAA (albeit four years late).

you know I really like Murton, but it's pretty obvious the Cubs are playing for this year and Floyd hasn't been the problem. His wheels have been more than fine this year actually. I'm not sure if people keep saying he can't run because they hear other people say it or are actually watching the games.

Not to say he's a good defender out there, he's really bad at tracking the ball and taking angles but then of course Murton dropped two routine flyballs that pretty much cost us 2 games.

Nonetheless, I'm happy Murton is back up and I hope he fixed his swing down there. Floyd can't play everyday as is and Murton will get his time. But between Floyd and Murton the rest of the year, there's not much of a difference in terms of trying to win for this season.

as for Lofton, I wouldn't have minded him but I'm not exactly sure he'd be any better than JJ the rest of the year. JJ sure showed off the glove in CF in St. Louis, made a couple of real nice plays and actually hit a cutoff man on the fly.

rumor be the Indians are giving up a minor league catcher according to mlbtraderumors

Sosa coming back to be our right hand off the bench makes too much damned sense. Look, from what i heard, when the Rangers played the Cubs, at the Cubs, in spring training, the fans went nuts.

Lofton deal done. Max Ramirez (bounty in Wickman trade last year) goes to Cleveland.

floyd can run, but floyd cant track a ball for s**t. even when he was young/healthy he could butcher the OF. but yeah, on the bases or trying to compensate for his lack of tracking skills, his legs are fine for a guy his age and faster than a chunk of his peer his age. he's not hobbled.

LoL...when was Floyd healthy? hehe

Rob G -
Is that minor league catcher from the Indians a Molina by any chance???

dave, thanks for asking. (Others on the board are probably not thanking you.)

Every play in baseball starts with the catcher giving a sign and giving the pitcher a target.

You can say that the pitcher decides what to throw and where to throw it. Funny thing, though, the same week that the Cubs were trying hard to peddle Barrett, Rothschild was saying words to this effect: pitchers used to shake off their catcher but not so much any more.

I took that to mean, If we want our pitchers to throw the right pitch in the right situation, we need a different catcher.

To me, when Hill is in there, the Cub pitchers throw the right pitch in the right situation.

That sounds a little touchy-feely, I know. One way to quantify it would be to count the number of fastballs versus breaking balls when Hill or someone else is catching. Barrett used to like to call a lot of curves and slurves. So does Kendall, by the way. Hill is more of a "fastball catcher."

If there are pitchers on the Cubs who have a tendency to forget they have a fastball--Dempster, Wuertz and R. Hill come to mind--K. Hill reminds them.

That's my observation, anyway. One of these does I'll come up with numbers that support the idea that Hill calls for more fastballs--not that that will convince any skeptics that it matters.

Look at it this way. Greg Maddux is a smart pitcher, right? His understanding of a hitter's tendencies is a big part of his success. So why wouldn't it also be a good thing to have a smart catcher, espy when the pitcher isn't as smart as Maddux?

Also, I think Hill is a better hitter than he's shown. His swing looks pretty good to me, especially lefty. It's a bit slow, but hey, he's a catcher.

Sosa? You gotta be kidding.

This team has their heads in the right place right now. You think bringing the Sammy circus to town would be a good thing?

Soriano is our Sammy now. High excitement, just as many HRs, just as many SOs, light years better defensively and he's still hungry to prove himself.

The fans will go plenty nuts when we make the playoffs -- without Sammy.

Not that I thought anyone was taking the idea remotely seriously in the 1st place...

as for Lofton, I wouldn’t have minded him but I’m not exactly sure he’d be any better than JJ the rest of the year. JJ sure showed off the glove in CF in St. Louis, made a couple of real nice plays and actually hit a cutoff man on the fly.

Yea... don't disagree with you on that.

As most probably recall, I have been a JJ supporter (for the most part) when others were not. I like the guy, and still think he can contribute to this team. His defense has been very good, especially his range. His arm has been, well... a normal JJ arm. I hope he continues to hit as he has been doing. And his seeing eye ground ball singles have been starting to turn into line drive base hits.

With that said, I would still LOVE to have Lofton leading off for this team. Lofton still reaches base at a very high rate (OBP - .380) and can still steal bases (21 of 25).

But oh well... I am, for the most part, quite content with JJ in CF and Floyd/Murton in RF.

Anybody else notice that the "It's Gonna Happen" shirts kinda look like Red Sox lettering? Maybe the guy had a bunch of boxes of them left over from 2004 when the fans all decided to "Cowboy Up" instead.

I second Jason on that... Even considering Sosa at this point would be a major gaffe. The team is trying to move forward from that era. Bringing him back would be taking a MAJOR step back.

ever since the "we got wood" guys were all over wrigleyville with hired "out of work hooters waitresses" and other annoying as crap street level marketing of those shirts wildly successful people been biting it hard. dude's just riding someone else's great idea...at least he was paying attention.

JF — July 27, 2007 @ 10:42 am

AZ -
I’m interested in who you feel our top prospects are at this point as well as the condition of the cubs farm system.

=============================

JF: I would say the Cubs farm system has rebounded and is on the way back. Tim Wilken drafted mostly college players in last month's Rule 4 Draft, and a lot of them look like they will be pretty good players.

CUBS TOP 20 PROSPECTS (just my opinion)
1. Felix Pie, CF
2. Eric Patterson, 2B
3. Sean Gallagher, RHP
4. Donald Veal, LHP
5. Leon Johnson, CF
6. Tyler Colvin, CF
7. Mark Holliman, RHP
8. Mitch Atkins, RHP
9. Jose Ceda, RHP
10. Josh Donaldson, C
11. Scott Moore, 3B
12. Alberto Cabrera, RHP
13. Jeff Samardzija, RHP
14. Chris Huseby, RHP
15. Jake Fox, OF-1B-C
16. Nelson Perez, RF
17. Kyler Burke, RF
18. Robert Hernandez, RHP
19. Kyle Reynolds, 3B
20. Sam Fuld, CF

Of course Sammy is killing left handed pitching and would be our right handed power source late in games. Right now our right handed late inning pinch hitter is...

Ronnie Cedeno

Now that Murton is up, maybe it will be him. But that is one guy I don't want up there. Late in games, down the stretch, I want a veteran power hitter. I want (if healthy) Daryle Ward from the left side and Sammy (or Reggie Sanders) from the right.

Rob,

That article you posted about Tony Gwynn has vindicated everything I have always thought about that loser.

leon johnson...interesting #5 over colvin/atkins...

what you seeing/hearing?

yeah, think I said something about the baggage and distractions. I know he's not coming back cause of the circus, but as a righty bench bat, he's killing lefties this year and was in 2005 still as well.

That's all I was saying..

I didn't post anything about Tony Gwynn

sammy makes so much sense for the cubs its almost creepy...even discounting his lack of consistant RF play in a while, if there's any RF he could move back into with very little problem it'd be the one in wrigley he patrolled for so long.

shame it ended badly on both ends, but it is what it is...for now anyway.

there's also the flipside consideration of if you'd want sosa back in the wrigley clubhouse while obviously not being "the man" there.

and to further clarify, if his name wasn't Sammy Sosa but Ty Wiggington the Cubs would be calling the Rangers right now wondering if he's available, cause he's exactly what they're looking for...

Sammy

If the Cubs can make up with Mark Grace, why not Sammy Sosa?

Get it done.

AZ -

Who are Leon Johnson and Nelson Perez? Also, any progress on EPatt's fielding issues - he must be improving if he's #2 on your list (at least I hope he is improving)?

if his name wasn’t Sammy Sosa but Ty Wiggington the Cubs would be calling the Rangers right now wondering if he’s available, cause he’s exactly what they’re looking for…

Sure... but so would everyone other playoff contender in the league.

Sorry Rob, its was Jacos.

Also, Ty Wiggington would be great. But there is a lot of competition for him right now. There are many other players I would like to get other than Sosa, but the reality is, there are not that many available to us that fit my criteria.

dave that is simply not true.

crunch — July 27, 2007 @ 11:54 am
leon johnson…interesting #5 over colvin/atkins…

what you seeing/hearing?

==========================

CRUNCH: I got to see Leon Johnson play a lot here at AZL Mesa before he got promoted to Peoria, and he is a really good ball player. He's a plus defender who can play all three OF positions, he has power, speed, he can bunt, and he's a good hitter.

Johnson is the guy who had his career sidetracked when he spent two years on an LDS mission in Siberia..One of his brothers is on the Devil Rays 40-man roster, another just got drafted by the Phillies out of HS, and another brother got drafted by the Mariners a couple or three years ago.

I like Johnson better than Colvin, because Johnson will take a walk. Johnson should move rapidly through the pipeline. He is a VERY good player. I can't believe he lasted until the 10th round, although the Cubs did give him 5th round money to sign.

dave that is simply not true.

What is simply not true? That other teams would be interested a player like Sosa if his name wasn't Sosa?

Why not? Several teams are supposed to be interested in Wiggenton. If they would be interested in Wiggenton's production, they would be interested in [someone not named Sosa]'s production.

Chad-
What's the problem with Gwynn?

I am not a big fan of Floyd but the thought of Murton playing RF scares me even more.

Wiggention is also 29 and can become a fixture in your outfield for many years. not ever team is looking for a guy to be the power off the bench or be the right handed bat in a platoon. Couple that with the fact that he's 38 years old, and you will not find a lot of teams that are looking his way. You think that team are lighting up the phone lines in Kansas City looking to pry away Reggie Sanders? NO! Just a few teams with specific needs.

Gwynn was a selfish player who only cared about his stats. He was a fat ass who couldn't keep himself in shape. This slowed him down and lead to injuries. Once his legs gave out, it was hard to score him from first base, therefore limiting his effectiveness to the team. I hate Tony Gwynn and I consider him to be one of the most overrated players ever and one of the worst players ever to make it to the Hall. GRANTED - he did legally collect 3000 hits and to me, that qualifies you for it. But in the long run, I don't think he did much for a team.

Don't worry Chad... even if Gwynn is the worst player in the HoF (and I think that is pretty absurd), Craig Biggio will take over that title shortly.

But Gwynn had a career BA of .338 and a career OBP of .388. Is it possible to overrate those numbers? He also averaged over 50 extra-base hits a year.

JF — July 27, 2007 @ 12:01 pm
AZ -

Who are Leon Johnson and Nelson Perez? Also, any progress on EPatt’s fielding issues - he must be improving if he’s #2 on your list (at least I hope he is improving)?

=========================

JF: I have E-Pat rated #2 strictly based on his offense. I believe he will be an outstanding MLB #1 or #2 hitter, no matter where he plays. In terms of aptitude, I would project him as a LF, but the thing is, if he stays with the Cubs, he really HAS to play 2B.

I discussed Leon Jonson is a previous comment (#73), but about Nelson Perez...

The Cubs signed N. Perez out of the Dominican Republic as a RHP last October, but once they saw him take BP at Fitch Park, they immediately moved him to RF.

He is 19 years old, and already has as much power as Ryan Harvey or Jake Fox, he has the best OF arm in the organization (even better than Ryan Harvey's), and above-average speed.

He's a left-handed hitter, but if you saw him from a distance, you would think you were looking at Sammy Sosa. He looks like Sammy Sosa's younger brother. He is really cut and looks like he spends a lot of time in the weight room.

HIs #1 problem is making contact. He is not a good hitter right now. He also had some behavioral issues at EXST. He's kind of a prima donna.

I mostly agree with Chad, although it's doubtful Wigginton would ever be a fixture on anyone's team.

But let's say the choices right now are Wigginton, Sosa and Sanders. Out of those 3, and taking out the character and publicity mess out of Sosa, Wigginton would cost the most because of his age and versatility around the diamond.

gwynn was a beast til he hit his early/mid 30s...still, yeah, i dont think he was all that, myself. you couldnt strike him out and was one of the most pure contact hitters ever that could deliver consistant results, though.

Gwynn was a pretty well-rounded player before he did get fat. And you know, the Padres made the Series twice. Better than anything we had going for us.

The rest of the 1990 Padres probably should have worried more about getting hits as well.

gwynn got injured a lot in his early 30s and the time off did him no good...he returned in worse shape yearly and started an injury string that continuted off/on til he retired. im still amazed he got 3000 hits...stayed healthy and in shape he could have probably had 3500.

I'll be all about Matt Murton as soon as the National League creates a AAAA ball league and the Cub's build a park for the Rockford Cub's. Then I will fully support Murton as the everyday left fielder for the Rockford Cub's.

Floyd in RF is ugly, but his bat makes the lineup a ton better. He's one of those guys that hits the ball hard and hits hit hard every time. He'll come up with his share of late-inning, game difference hits.

the dude who brought up the Matt Stairs getting scouted rumors at NSBB has a new one that the O's and Cubs have discussed JJ for Jay Payton. Pie would get called back up in theory.

Nothing but speculation, don't get in a tizzy.

I hope that the statement about Biggio was meant in jest.

Biggio would be far from the worst player in the Hall. He should be a first ballot hall of famer. He is definitely one of the top ten second basemen of all time, and may even be in the top five.

I like Gwynn.

any Cubs news in today's BP Mill?

just the Cubs news if there's any..

Biggio would be far from the worst player in the Hall

Who do you think is the worst player in the HOF?

Rob, Gwynn was a very well rounded player before he got...

wait for it...

well rounded!!!

What I am saying is that in his early thirties, he let himself go and became a one dimensional player. This does very little to help your team.

Dave, anyone who only has and OBP of .050 higher than their career batting average should be ridiculed by you. You should hate Tony Gwynn just for that.

speaking of BP, they ranked E-Pat as the third best 2b prospect in the minors behind Antonelli of the Padres and Cardenas of the Phillies.

Dave, anyone who only has and OBP of .050 higher than their career batting average should be ridiculed by you. You should hate Tony Gwynn just for that.

Straw-Man Chad is out...

I can already see the next 10 posts about this.

"Biggio would be far from the worst player in the Hall. He should be a first ballot hall of famer. "

If Biggio ended his career with say, 2900 hits, I don't think he makes the hall at all.

He was never dominating, never the best at his possession and totally eclipsed by too many players in his own generation.

He may not even make first ballot. he'll get in though. But if Sandberg took 3 years to get in, Biggio will wait too.

Rob, that was a joke.

you know what didn't help those Padres teams? The crappy players that played with Gwynn.

For a team with a relatively low payroll they did alright, won 98 games in 1996.

1998

who was a better 2b in the NL in the mid-90's than Biggio?

sorry 98 games in 1998, 91 and a division title in 1996.

who was a better 2b in the NL in the mid-90’s than Biggio?

Roberto Alomar?

Jeff Kent and Roberto Alomar to name a couple.

Sosa? No suh.

Carlos Baerga

Alomar was in the AL, but yeah he was awesome.

Jeff Kent with the Mets wasn't very special and I guess defense doesn't matter at all.

haha Baerga...good one.

"Mid-90's" is somewhat abritrary, but I looked at '93 through '97 - it seemed like a good look at the "mid-90's."

Alomar: .319/.391/.486
Biggio: .300/.398/.470

They were pretty similar players. I would say that Alomar played better defense.

Someone else to throw out there (not that he is a HOFer):

Chuck Knoblauch: .310/.400/.442

Murton vs Floyd:
Neither one is very good in RF
Neither one is particularly fast
Floyd has had some decent games. His last 10:
.286, 0 HR's and 3 RBI, but if Murton was starting and only slugging .396, people would be calling for his head.

I'm all for Murrton splitting time with Floyd in RF. Maybe it'll keep Floyd from hurting himself.

I missed the NL part of your question but when it comes to the Hall, does league really matter?

Alomar was in the AL, but yeah he was awesome.

Ah... missed the "NL" part.

Kent, over the same time period: .273/.326/.458, though Kent obviously got better.

Delino Deshields

Alomar will be an interesting HOF case, that's for sure.

Easily the best 2b in the majors for a good 10 year span, but never won any major awards and fell short of the major milestones.

Great glove too...

are u being serious Chad or just naming second basemen from that time period?

Kent took off when he went to San Fran, more late 90's, early 2000's.

Also an interesting HOF case, the offensive numbers are there, but always second or third fiddle on his teams and brings nothing with the glove for a middle infield position.

yeah Knoblauch was well on his way, but his overall career fizzled out.

Also Biggio gets the leadoff man boost for his HOF chances. I personally don't give it much credence, but I think voters certainly will.

If Mr. Alfonso Soriano cares about such things as making the Hall, he should insist on staying in that spot in the lineup, it's got a bit of a mythic quality amongst the voters.

Rey Sanchez

also Biggio played in an offensive death trap until 2000. Without doing the math, his OPS+ numbers look a tad better than Alomar's. I could be wrong about that, at the very least about the same.

Generally, when a player knocks the shit out of the ball to the frequency that Gwynn did, they take less walks. If you can hit .350, you're swinging a lot.

Take Mighty Fontenot:

1) He'll either force pitchers to pitch to him and hit .330

2) or he'll take so many BB's that he has an IsoD of .80 - .100

end o' subject

Rob, I am not just naming names wildly. In fact, I"m done.

Biggio - OPS+: 113
Alomar - OPS+: 116

And sorry... those are career OPS+ numbers.

"Sosa? No suh."

_______________

well done, Dave... that comment should make the TCR applause sign light up.

Man... Alomar really dropped off a cliff after 2001. He went from a 956 OPS in 2001 to a 707 OPS in 2002, and never recovered after that.

yeah I was looking at more like '91 to 2000 between Alomar and Biggio.

if you think Baerga and Deshields were better 2bmen than Biggio for any sustained time period other than a spare year or two, you need serious help.

Deshields sponsor on his BR.com page...

Website devoted to native Delawareans who have played major league baseball. Arguably the greatest batter to hail from Delaware, DeShields holds almost every career hitting mark by a native Delawarean.

must have been 'roids...

Chad can tell us what his numbers would have been without them and then we can go from there. :)

And Jeff Kent has a career OPS of 126.

And Kent has a 119 HOF monitor number, compared to a 193 (wow!) for Alomar and a 172 for Biggio.

For comparison, Biggio is surrounded by people like Ernie Banks, Reggie Jackson, Joe Morgan, etc.

Biggio and Alomar are tied with a score of 55 in the Hall of Fame standard.

Kent is at 48.

50 is your average hall of famer.

For the HOF monitor, 100+ is a likely hall of famer.

Also, playing in a stadium like the astro dome, i think, HELPS non power hitters. Big alleys allow for many doubles and triples. If you get it over the head of an outfielder, you can run forever. The astroturf also turned many a ground out into a slippery base hit.

3000 hits = HOF, I doubt that's going to change. 500 homers though will probably no longer be the milestone. See if it gets bumped up to 550 or 600.

Frank, Arod and possibly Manny all make the 500 club this year.

Okay... numbers form 91 through 2000.

Alomar: .311/.387/.470
Biggio: 299/.391/.451
Kent: .276/.335/.477

I don't feel like looking at OPS+ for them in the 90s, as that gets a bit trickier.

Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal today about the success or lack of it of Japanese import ball players. Emphasis on the changes Japanese players have to make....

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1185491919264...

Let's not forget that Biggio also played catcher ealry on....very versatile player IMO. As far as Gwynn is concerned, the guy did hit .394 in a season which I think was the higest since Ted Williams hit .406. That in addition to the 3,000 hits is automatic induction for me. Alomar? If he hadn't spit on that Ump, I would like him a lot more.

wouldn't quite call Biggio a non-power hitter, he was a 20+ homer hitter in that death trap. He easily could have had a 30 homer season in his prime if he played somewhere else.

Hit 26 just two years ago at age 40 in the super-friendly Juice Park.

Frank, Arod and possibly Manny all make the 500 club this year.

And all should end up in the HOF.

But yea... I would think that 500 no longer becomes an automatic entry into the HOF.

How I would change the HOF voting:

Every year, the two players who get the most votes from the BBWAA get in. Always two. Never more. Never less.

And every five years (years ending in zero and five), the Veterans Committee votes and the #1 guy gets in (unless it's Ron Santo). Always one, no more, no less. Every fifth year.

Chad,
Agree with you on Biggio.

oh yeah, they're all HOF'ers, just pointing out how more common it's become.

so 2 players who don't deserve it could get in? Me no like.

Va Phil,
I wanted to respond to a few of your thoughts in that excellent defense of Koyie Hill post:

Rothschild was saying words to this effect: pitchers used to shake off their catcher but not so much any more. I took that to mean, If we want our pitchers to throw the right pitch in the right situation, we need a different catcher.

I think the conclusion is slightly fault here. If you want your pitcher to throw the right pitch in the right situatioin with Barrett back there, they're going to shake it off. Doesn't mean they won't throw it. Say what you want about not having hitters guessing when pitchers start shaking signs off (which is still important), but your conclusion does not match the data you gave.

One way to quantify it would be to count the number of fastballs versus breaking balls when Hill or someone else is catching. Barrett used to like to call a lot of curves and slurves. So does Kendall, by the way. Hill is more of a “fastball catcher.”

This data would be horribly inconclusive and skewed by everything from that day's opponent to how well that day'd pitcher is throwing his breaking ball for strikes or ever even if the wind is in/out at Wrigley. You can't approach a pitcher's breakdown of pitches as if every game is played in a vacuum.

I do think Koyie is good with pitchers. I do think Barrett was bad with pitchers. But all in all, I think having a "good game caller" back there isn't as important as having a superb defender who can hit a little bit.

paragraph beginning with Rothschild shoulda been italicized... grumble grumble grumble

Rob G. — July 27, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
so 2 players who don’t deserve it could get in? Me no like.

=======================

ROB G: I advocate that because the HOF voting is so subjective. That's why I say just let the top two in every year.

And BTW, I was just kidding about Ron Santo not getting into the HOF.

Re the Cubs-O's rumor (#86):

Hendry scoffed at the idea that the Cubs would send a scout based in Tampa to Baltimore to see Wigginton when he had seen him many times in Tampa.

Assuming Rogers got the scout's name right, he must therefore have been in Baltimore scouting the O's.

Payton gets $4-5 million in '08 so contract-wise it's a wash. Cubs wouldn't be handing millions to a ghost, like they would have if the Marlins deal had been consummated.

Payton would be a righty platoon with Pie. Anything that brings Pie back works for me.

I would take two Ron Santo's in the HoF if it meant he retired from the broadcast booth...

With Utley out, HEndry can move Fontenot and JJones for Shane Victorino, right?

Rich: " As far as Gwynn is concerned, the guy did hit .394 in a season which I think was the higest since Ted Williams hit .406."

110 games of a strike shortened season. that stat would have come down.

Rob G.: "wouldn’t quite call Biggio a non-power hitter, he was a 20+ homer hitter in that death trap."

What I am saying is that Biggio was not a classic power hitter. He had good power for his position. I am saying that I bet he got a lot of hits (extra bases included) because of what the astro dome had to offer.

Sosa is hitting .333/.436/.615 for a .1051 OPS against lefties. 4 HR, 25 RBI in 73 abs (14 bb, 17 Ks). I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

;-)

Thank you, AZ Phil!

Ok Chad.....that's an interesting statement.

"110 games of a strike shortened season. that stat would have come down."

It may have come down. It may not have. 110 games is a substantial sample size. He did this in 419 AB's...it's not like he played 50 games and did it in 175 AB's. He had a tremendous season.

And you don't think that player's get tired in the last 50 games of the season? And the wear and tear on a fat guy like that wouldn't have an effect? All i"m saying is that I will not give credence to any stat that is not played over an entire season. To me, that season never even happened.

Worst player in the hall Bill Mazeroski in my opinion.

Q, you may have a point.

And you don’t think that player’s get tired in the last 50 games of the season? And the wear and tear on a fat guy like that wouldn’t have an effect?

That should be pretty easy to figure out.

Lets take a look:
March/April: .346
May: .333
June: .344
July: .325
August: .348
September/Oct: .333

Career: .338

So from what it looks like, there would have been a decent chance that Gwynn would have maintained his .394 batting average that year.

So if he gets hurt after 110 games and doesn't play in the final 52 + potentially playoffs, his numbers shouldn't count either?

Biggio's OPS+ numbers are very good, but you should read Bill James's writeup of him in the last Baseball Abstract. James, as he so often does, goes beyond a lot of the easy numbers. OPS+ is useful, but it doesn't capture a lot. He points out, for example, Biggio's 1997 season, in which he had 34 HBP and 0 GIDP, as being unprecedented. Biggio did a lot of the little "percentage play" things right for a long time. His stolen base percentage is ridiculous. He got on base a lot, HBP and otherwise. He scored a lot of runs.

As I noted in another thread, Biggio's average OPS+ in his ten best seasons is slightly better than Sandberg's. Sandberg's best six seasons were better than Biggio's, but Biggio's five or six best seasons are nothing to sneeze at.

Bill James LOVES Biggio if I remember right. I hate him simply because he tormened the the Cubs. During his prime he was an excellent ball player though I agree Alomar was slightly better. He will be in the hall and deservedly so in my opinion.

I think it is important to view his career in comparison to the average hall of fame second baseman. His career surpasses those already enshrined at his position.

that was supposed to say "surpasses many of those". I dont think he is the best ever. He's no Hornsby.

Dave lets look at number that actually matter, you know that season's numbers.

mar/april .395
may .392
june .387
july .370
aug .475 (in 40 abs)

I think its safe to say we could easily predict a decline.

I would bet he would have finished about .370. Nice average but he would not come close to .400.

And Wes, not really. I guess after 110 games he'd have enough abs to qualify but talk about a cheap way to get it.

At lease Ted Williams played on the last day of his .400 season. A double header too!

Az Phil thanks for your breakdowns on Perez and Leon Johnson.
Q : Could you please tell us about pitchers Redmond, Hatley and Bunton, also tell us about the Cuban defector Sabates and it sounds like our 5th rounder Guyer is playing soon? Thank you if you would?

What decline are you predicting, and what are you basing it on? Because he went from .387 to .370? You know that is only a difference of 4 hits, right?

And no... you are wrong about how career numbers don't matter. You assume that Gwynn got tired through the year, and in turn his numbers dropped off as the year went on. But his career numbers show that your assumption is false.

"one of the worst players ever to make it to the Hall." Have you looked at a list of HOFers lately, Chad? Gwynn isn't close to one of the worst.

I will be at the game tonight too, Cubster. I was here last year when Rich Hill pitched in a rain-shortened , five-inning game that the Reds won. Looks like it's going to happen again tonight. Narron out managed Dusty on that one. Go figure. Let's hope Lou and the boys get the game in and win. I personally would like to see us get another bullpen arm.

slamdog — July 27, 2007 @ 2:16 pm

Az Phil thanks for your breakdowns on Perez and Leon Johnson.

Q : Could you please tell us about pitchers Redmond, Hatley and Bunton, also tell us about the Cuban defector Sabates and it sounds like our 5th rounder Guyer is playing soon? Thank you if you would?

========================

SLAMDOG: Marcus Hatley throws hard and he throws strikes. I like him a lot. He's been very impressive. I could see him as a late-inning reliever.

Cedric Redmond is inconsistent with his command and I haven't been impressed with his stuff, either, although he looked better in his last outing. He was brought along slower than most of the other pitchers.

Michael Bunton is a lefty breaking ball pitcher, but he has gotten hammered pretty good in the AZL. I haven't been impressed and doubt that he has much of a future in pro ball. One weird thing about Bunton is that the front of his shirt keeps coming out of his pants when he pitches and the umpire has to keep reminding him to tuck it in.

Roberto Sabates is way too advanced for Mesa. I'm not saying he's too good for the AZL, just too advanced. (He played for Industriales in Cuba). He is a fundamentally sound player, has a good knowledge of the strike zone, and his catching mechainics are solid, but he's not much of a hitter and I doubt that he has a future with the Cubs. Physically, Sabates resembles Jorge Posada.

Is Phil Rizzuto in HOF as player?

Ok..he declined frombut hitting .475 in 40 AB's in August?

Splain how that would easily predict his further decline? Did Gwynn start every month hitting .475 then fall to .225 over the second half of the month?

40 AB's=10 games? So guessing he'd play 20 games in a month, he's have to hit 9/40 to drop to .350 for the month.

Yes, Rizzuot is in-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Rizzuto

He's the worst.

word be that Iguchi is going to the Phillies for a Single A prospect, guess the Phils aren't giving up...

WSCR report supposedly...

Tadahito Iguchi traded to Phillies for Michael Dougy(sp?) a single-A outfielder..

Wow.... Philly sure moved quickly on that one!

that came off the NSBB board btw...

supposedly Michael Dubee is the return...

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats...

Payton against LHP (career): .288/.347/.457
Pie projected (PECOTA, I assume this for RHP): .286/.339/.477

JJ against both LHP and RHP (career): .278/.327/.454

It does not seem to me like a Payton/Pie platoon would be substantially better and JJ everyday.

Strange... I thought they said Dubee was an Outfielder... this milb site has him as a pitcher..

if it's Dubee, he's a pitcher in lo-A ball

4-4, 3.88 ERA, 55.2 IP, 54 K, 22 BB, 1.62 G/F Ratio

21 yrs old, was NOT in the BA Top 10 preseason prospects for the Phils

well JJ isn't playing vs lefties either...

Pagan vs lefties so far: 246/284/508 with 4 hr's

Of course Rizzuto has five or six world series rings. and yes that makes a HUGE difference.

It's official. Fox & Petrick down says Bruce Miles.

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/cubs.asp?id...

phew...no DL for derosa (for now at least)...was worried that might be a case for one of the players.

playing with Mantle, Dimaggio, Berra, Whitey Ford, etc certainly did make a HUGE difference.

How the hell did Rizzuto win an MVP in 1950?

Oh yeah 5 time all star and an mvp. playing with the yanks made that much easier, sure. But if you're good enough to be the short stop on the best team in baseball, that says a lot.

The Cubs and O's usually get it done, not sure why. Sosa, Patterson, Bynum. But JJ, that's the real test!

Damn, now I'm getting my hopes up again.

Hendry scoffed at the idea that the Cubs would send a scout based in Tampa to Baltimore to see Wigginton when he had seen him many times in Tampa.

Sounds reasonable enough, curious where you read or heard that though?

Thanks in advance.

preferably Hendry's sending a scout to Baltimore to see Miguel Tejada. JJ for Payton is just deck shuffling for this year imo.

But if you’re good enough to be the short stop on the best team in baseball, that says a lot.

RYAN THERIOT thanks you for the compliment.

I am kinda' confused about why we would be excited about swapping JJ for Payton.

Payton isn't as good as Jones.

Career lines:
JJ: .278/.327/.454
JP: .283/.328/.435

Last three years (2004-2006):
JJ: .263/.323/.454
JP: .276/.320/.409

This year:
JJ: .248/.313/.343
JP: .270/.313/.387 (and for VA Phil - just 4 HR)

I am really not sure how Jay Payton is a better player than JJ.

Payton isn’t as good as Jones.

I wrote this first, and mean to reconsider it before I posted the comment.

I am not sure that JJ is better than Payton. But he surely isn't worse.

I would guess the excitement would be to A) get rid of JJ and B) bring Pie back up and get the bulk of playing time.

Doesn't get me all that excited but I'm guessing that's where that comes from.

Seems like a good deal for the offseason though.

My fear about that trade is that we get a healthy dose of Angel Pagan again. Pagan is at his best when enjoyed in moderation.

JJ + stuff (useful prospects) for Jay Payton and...

Tejada.

I said it before and I'll say it again, Tejada will be a Cub.

For better or worse, I was right about Nomar, I was right about Izturis and I'll be right about Tejada. NOW THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!!!!!!!

Soriano
Pnty
DLee
Arama
Miggy
Floyd
Pie/Payton
Catcher

Here it is, Rob:

General manager Jim Hendry scoffed specifically at the idea that the Cubs were sending a Tampa-based scout to Baltimore to report on a Devil Rays player he has seen countless times this season.

http://tinyurl.com/376fbs

My fear about that trade is that a month into Payton's tenure we will be asking why we traded JJ.

damn my post disappeared.

but it was awesome. i hope it shows up.

damn my post disappeared.

It worked!!

We have been trying to get Chad's posts to disappear for years...

:)

Today's Starting Lineups
Cubs Reds
Soriano, lf Freel, cf
Theriot, ss Keppinger, ss
Lee, 1b Griffey, rf
Ramirez, 3b Phillips, 2b
Floyd, rf Dunn, lf
DeRosa, 2b Conine, 1b
Jones, cf Encarnacion, 3b
Kendall, c Ross, c
Hill, p Arroyo, p

game thread was up like 20 minutes ago Chad...

and if you haven't gone there yet, a lovely Murton/Gallagher for Dunn or Griffey rumor for you...

Today’s Starting Lineups
Cubs Reds
Soriano, lf Freel, cf
Theriot, ss Keppinger, ss
Lee, 1b Griffey, rf
Ramirez, 3b Phillips, 2b
Floyd, rf Dunn, lf
DeRosa, 2b Conine, 1b
Jones, cf Encarnacion, 3b
Kendall, c Ross, c
Hill, p Arroyo, p

by gone there, I meant the new thread....

just trying to get to 200 comments

anyone know what tonight's lineup is? anyone, I haven't heard yet..Bueller?

Schmidt 3/44

Today’s Starting Lineups
Cubs Reds
Soriano, lf Freel, cf
Theriot, ss Keppinger, ss
Lee, 1b Griffey, rf
Ramirez, 3b Phillips, 2b
Floyd, rf Dunn, lf
DeRosa, 2b Conine, 1b
Jones, cf Encarnacion, 3b
Kendall, c Ross, c
Hill, p Arroyo, p

Chad-
Robert Horry a hof'er?

"That article you posted about Tony Gwynn has vindicated everything I have always thought about that loser."

Gwynn had one of the best attitudes in the game when he played - never heard anything about him ripping the team when the Pads didn't exactly field great players around him. When he was younger, he reminded me of Rod Carew in his prime. And getting dissed by those two jackasses means absolutely nothing, consider the source.

Basketball is not the same. But he's a good case.

'Oh yeah 5 time all star and an mvp. playing with the yanks made that much easier, sure. But if you’re good enough to be the short stop on the best team in baseball, that says a lot.'

Chad wants Julio Lugo?

Rizzuto in '50? That 12.3 WARP3 is better than Sandberg's high (11.9).

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