Game 123 Redux / Cardinals @ Cubs (3 of 4)

Game Chat Joel Pineiro vs. Ted Lilly Lineups:
Ryan 2B Theriot SS
Ankiel LF Jones CF
Pujols 1B Lee 1B
Encarnacion RF Ramirez 3B
Rolen 3B Ward RF
Edmonds CF DeRosa 2B
Molina C Murton LF
Pineiro P Kendall C
Eckstein SS Lilly P
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Comments

Play ball!

Ok...2 outs...c'mon Lilly!!!

This Ward kid. I'm starting to like his moxy.

D. Ward is my hero.

Jesus, ARam is having some defensive issues today. DFA HIM!

Way to kick it in..Pele!!!!!!

Terrible play A-Ram,,,just not good.

Raining like mad out here in western suburbs.

Someone please help us out.

I remember earlier in the year hearing a change in how rain out games will be handled, but I don't remember the specifics.

For instance, take yesterday's game. Washed out after three innings. The scorebox says it will be postponed due to rain, and it also lists the current situation. Maybe I'm arguing semantics, but I take "posponed due to rain" and the immediate following of the specific situation to mean that the game will be continued from this spot, and not entirely made up.

I thought I remember the reasoning behind it being something like not wanting to lose the stats and scoring from four and two third inning rain outs.

Swanny, the change has to do with rainouts where the team who was behind catches up in the top half of an inning after the game is official, but the rain washes out the game before the home team completes their half of the inning. In that case, the game is suspended (not postponed) and is continued from when the rains halted play. Previously, the game reverted back to the last completed inning.

Speaking of rain delays.... Crap!

So what exactly happens in this case, where we were already down 5-4 and gave up 1 in the top of the 7th? If it rains all day and they can't play, does it revert to a 6-inning game and we lose? Or do we get a chance to come back in the bottom of the 7th, on some other date?

Conine to Mets for 2 A-ballers per Rosenthal

Just before the delay...on the MLB gameday audio feed...you could hear the crowd booing (tarp going on) and then Pat Hughes say "DAMMIT" really loud. Hilarious! I guess his mic wasn't off.

I think the game is just called, Cards would win 6-4.

I would guess that they would just call it an official game, and we lose.

Just before the delay...on the MLB gameday audio feed...you could hear the crowd booing (tarp going on) and then Pat Hughes say "DAMMIT" really loud. Hilarious! I guess his mic wasn't off!

Just before the delay...on the MLB gameday audio feed...you could hear the crowd booing (tarp going on) and then Pat Hughes say "DAMMIT" really loud. Hilarious! I guess his microphone wasn't off!!

Yeah, I heard Pat on my XM feed, also.

The shouldnt be able to call the game yet. The cubs have yet to bat in the bottom of the 8th. Since the Cards already batted in the top of the inning. It would be unfair to the cubs. Im 99 1/2 % certain that the game cannot be called right now.

back on May 1st as the Pirates were about to bat in the bottom of the 7th, rain suspended the game --- the new rule in baseball this year was you had to play the completed inning---so the game resumed the next day and the Cubs rallied to win---same situation as today, if they don't restart

NO, the only reason that game had to pick up where it left off was because the lead had changed hands in the top of that inning. Since the lead has not changed hands in the 7th inning in today's game, it will be declared a complete game.

Bob--

In that game, though, didn't the Pirates score to go ahead in that half-inning?

we scored 4 runs in top of 7th to go ahead 6-5, 2 hr rain dealy, game suspended, picked up next day before regular game---sounds like the same situation to me---have to complete the full inning, suspended game

No, bob. The lead did not change hands today in the top of the 7th. The Cards scored a run, but they were already ahead. The game will be an official game if it is called today. Cubs lose... I just hope they fire it back up... Anyone know how the weather is looking?

the difference is the Cubs took the lead in the 7th, the Cards just extended theirs today.

From the radar map I see, it looks like this rain is about to clear up. Has anyone seen an update on the game?

here's the discussion back from May 1st..
http://mvn.com/mlb-cubs/?comments_popup=688#c...

djchi nailed it in comment #9, the new rule is only if the visiting team took the lead and play was stopped. Cards already had the lead, so the game if official...if it's called.

i believe if they call this game it technically goes back to the end of the 6th. It would be as if the 7th never happened.

My guess.

you might be right about that one Chad...Piggy would be happy.

The wierd thing is, the way the rule is written, if the trailing team comes back to tie, the way I read the rule, the game still reverts back to the previous inning if it's called before the end of the inning. They'd have to come back to take the lead. Which is stupid.

From the May 1 discussion:

(5) Weather, if a regulation game is called while an inning is in progress and before the inning is completed, and the visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead, and the home team has not retaken the lead; or

Yep, it would be a 5-4, 6 inning rain-shortened game if it was called right now. Good for STL, bad for CHC, bad for Ankiel, good for Piggy.

Of course, the rain is stopping, looks like we will have baseball in 30 min or so...

Tarp is coming off.

Game will soon start.

What?

Did they announce an actual re-start time at all?

STL is getting ready to take the field, according to WGN.

make that 4:50 Central

Has the game restarted?

Game on.

Well...that was anticlimactic.

The Cubs are probably lucky to have gotten out of this series with just one loss instead of splitting the series. Although pushing the 4th game until Soriano gets back seems good, something makes me think the Cubs got screwed by this rain.

5 game series in St. Louis or makeup game in Chicago?

Which one is it sedagive? Are we lucky that we didn't get a split or did we get screwed? Make up your mind.

"5 game series in St. Louis or makeup game in Chicago?"

Wha?

It is a HOME game that is being re-played. They will not be tagging this on to a road game..

After 5 nice starts in a row by Lilly (3, 1, 4, 2, 2 ER's), the last two starts have not been very good with a 6-spot on the 15th, and 5 today.

And, in the future Lou, just fucking WALK Pujols if the game is tied or the Cubs are ahead. Let someone else beat you. LaRussa wouldn't hesitate if we had a "Pujols". Swallow the ego!

Well - just walk him, period. Let Encarnacion beat us.

Fresh from mESPN 1000

K. Hill DFA'd

Cedeno sent down.

Bye bye...

Floyd takes Cedeno's roster spot, Blanco takes Koyie's?

Apparently...

Listen to Levine coming up.

Stay tuned!

New topic: Theriot's stretch in 1st inning

There's a rule most of us learned baserunning by.

You never want to make the 1st out of the inning at 3b or home plate.

It's not worth the risk. It's quite possible that play could have been a key to our loss today plus Lily's 2nd straight poor performance.

Steve

Wow... Cedeno down instead of Fox? I know that Fox is a better hitter, but it just really limits the middle infield options.

AZ PHIL:

Rosters are expanding - who are the "locks"? Will Soto get any starts as the 3rd string catcher if called up? How is his current CS%?

Oh... and if the Cubs think so highly of Hill's ability to help the Cubs win (and, of course, make the Cubs pitchers throw harder), why is he getting DFA'd?

How will we ever win another game with Hill gone?

Hopefully Blanco has also found a way to add 4 mph to the radar for our pitchers.

I suppose it may limit the middle IF, but tomorrow is 8/21.

I'd guess Cedeno is back up Sep. 1. But he is a dumb as a post, for Pete's sake! MAybe there is a Cubs "Rick Ankiel" in AAA or AA.

I'm sick of hearing about him.

I'm wondering how long its gonna take for Fonty to start riding the pines again, as well. He is in a slump...

"Oh… and if the Cubs think so highly of Hill’s ability to help the Cubs win (and, of course, make the Cubs pitchers throw harder), why is he getting DFA’d?"

Well, base stealing is really on the pitcher, Wes tells us. But somehow, regardless of the 2-60 CS% on a part of the Cubs catchers, a .150 BA in the Majors does not do much for job security.

Z losing his little buddy, hope he doesn't go on a 2 month meltdown.

Teams usually don't go too nuts with the rosters expanding when they're in the race.

I would guess:
Ohman if he's not been permanently banned
Gallagher
Cherry
Cedeno
Soto

We'll see about E-Pat and Coats.

"Ohman if he’s not been permanently banned..."

Don't get me started...Oh-Man!

:-)

Hopefully Blanco is a 100% percent. If were going to beat the Mets in the playoffs we need him to put some doubt into Reyes and the other Met basestealers or it will be one ugly series if they can walks and singles to triples at will.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Hill being DFA'd doesn't necessarily mean the Cub's are losing him.

I need VA Phil's scout on how much harder Blanco makes pitchers throw.

Send up the bat signal.

Hill could clear waivers and accept an assignment to the minors which he'll almost certainly do. That's assuming the Cubs actually want to keep him which I'm sure they would.

Soto's the first Iowa Cub catcher to hit 20 home runs. One of his blasts came when he played first base.

Has there been an explanation on Soto this year? His peripherals look mostly the same. I saw his blurb about less coaching being beneficial or is it just a 24 yr old growing into his power?

He isn't just growing into his power. He is being ridiculous. His SLUG in each of July and August is over .730!!!

ridiculous it is..but what spurred the guy who couldn't top double digits into a 20+ homer guy this year? In 330+ AB's nonetheless...

Just wondering if there was some big offseason conditioning he did or changed his stance or stroke or something.

Devon Hester at it again!

ridiculous it is..but what spurred the guy who couldn’t top double digits into a 20+ homer guy this year? In 330+ AB’s nonetheless…

Maybe he's hanging out with Bonds, Sheff, Giambi, Canseco, etc.? :)

Dave: It is funny - but also a pretty sad commentary on baseball that when as fans we see a growth in power numbers unexpectedly, we automatically think cream and the clear!

Well... I don't really think he is doing it.

But yea- I guess it is pretty sad that it is what comes to my mind.

"Henry Blanco, rehabbing at Triple-A Iowa, is 2-for-10 after three games with one RBI." Cubs.com

Glad to see Hank is falling right in-line!

"Has there been an explanation on Soto this year?"

strangely, very very little about him from anyone that i've seen.

he's always been looked upon as a guy who's got a decent arm, decent recieving skills, and a touch of power. now all of a sudden he's showing more power than he projected for along with his glove/arm.

the thing that confuses me is just what is he still doing down there...working on...etc.

there's gotta be something he's either still working on or he's showing himself exploited by better trained pros in some way. no idea what it is and no one i know watching him in iowa can tell me anything, either.

*shrug*

we'll see what we got in soto soon enough i guess.

Does anybody know what the hell is wrong with Corey Hart?

He did get hit on the elbow yesterday.

bill hall 3 run homer in the 1st...bah.

I need VA Phil’s scout on how much harder Blanco makes pitchers throw. Send up the bat signal.

It's a long season, Wes. Whenever you get the feeling that Marmol is throwing too many sliders, or Dempster is, or Wood--send up the bat signal. I'll be watching.

Cubs are now 12-14 with Kendall catching.

The first guy Pignatiello faced in the majors was Adam Dunne. Hill was catching. The first two pitches were swinging strikes, fastballs on his fists. Having stood Dunne up, Pignatiello threw a breaking ball and got a chopper toward first.

I just went to mlb.com and looked at Pignatiello throwing his one pitch to Ankiel. What a surprise. You're a loogy, you throw all curveballs, right?

Has there been an explanation on Soto this year? His peripherals look mostly the same. I saw his blurb about less coaching being beneficial or is it just a 24 yr old growing into his power?

I posted plenty about it.Not my fault you didn't bother to read the posts. He gave an interview where he explained where his "new" power came from.

i dont think anyone on this planet, even jim hendry, doubts that soto is the catcher of the future and/or wont be traded unless they get a comparable or damn close talent in return.

the big question is...why he still down there?

he could have been used as a backup at a lot of points this year but hasnt. you cant say hendry dont like him or the organization dont have a plan for him, either...it just dont fly.

there's gotta be a reason he's still there...i just hope its a good one, personally.

I just fail to see how CHAD has this race settled already and that the BREW sucks and will now get buried...

If people feel this Cubs squad can win 15 of their next 22 or something, perhaps. But as I've said many times - the Brewers do have talent and this could go down to the last day of the season with three teams, imo.

btw...throwing around phrases like "catcher of the future"...no, i dont mean a future allstar or the next coming of barrett's bat with irod's D.

i just mean a servicable defensive catcher who can slap a ball 400+ft. more often than a lotta his counterparts.

hell, at worst people see him as a backup catcher who's more than a show-up-then-fade 3-5 year player.

The day that a catcher tells me what I have to throw will be quite a revolutionary one for baseball, VA Phil. He won't make me throw more fastballs or less breaking balls. I promise.

Your highfalutin theory is just plain wrong. I'm sorry. This isn't an opinion debate. I'm telling you the right answer and you're ignoring it.

The E-Man:
this could go down to the last day of the season with three teams, imo.

Damn, that would be sweet.

Of course, it would be nice for the Cub's to just lock it up now.

I posted plenty about it.Not my fault you didn’t bother to read the posts. He gave an interview where he explained where his “new” power came from.

Holy s***! What was that about?

While your sentiments are true, Wes, they are not shared among all pitchers...especially ones recently called up.

While your sentiments are true, Wes, they are not shared among all pitchers…especially ones recently called up.

What? What pitchers claim that K. Hill makes them throw harder?

And what pitchers say that they don't throw the pitches that they want to throw?

man...

top 9th ARZ marches out jeff cirillo to pitch (crappy knuckleball, crappy fastball)...wish i had the MLB EI arz feed with grace in the booth.

2 amazing things...

1- he struck out counsell

2- j.estrada actually took a walk

what what what are you talking about dave?

I was simply saying throwing what the catcher calls isn't the same thing as throwing what the pitcher doesn't want.

"I just fail to see how CHAD has this race settled already and that the BREW sucks and will now get buried…"

It's easy to win the division when you are the only team that will be over .500 on the last day of the season.

Sure MIlwaukee has talent but they are a shitty team. There is a big difference. And they have very little pitching.

Your highfalutin theory is just plain wrong. I’m sorry. This isn’t an opinion debate. I’m telling you the right answer and you’re ignoring it.

Experts disagree, Wes. You're an expert, so is Larry Rothschild, who said: “Years ago it was different. In today’s world, for whatever reason, pitchers don’t shake off catchers a whole lot."

Rothschild said this right before Michael Barrett was traded, at a time when the Cub catcher was being criticized for a lot of things including his pitch selection.

Iowa and Tennessee still manage to win most of their games. (Daytona is another story.)

Kroeger with a walk off homer for Iowa. Soto 2 for 3 (.359) with 2 RBI (95).

dave — August 20, 2007 @ 5:32 pm
Wow… Cedeno down instead of Fox? I know that Fox is a better hitter, but it just really limits the middle infield options.

================================

DAVE: Jake Fox has spent 18 days on optional assignment to the minors so far in 2007 (and if he spends 20 days on optional assignment, he burns one of his three option years), so sending him down for just another two days would burn one of his three options. This close to September 1st (when rosters expand), might as well keep him on the 25.

Besides, a rusty Ronny Cedeno could use a few ABs at AAA in case the Cubs need him to play SS at some point in September. (And Cedeno will be out of minor league options next season)

Likewise, if Eric Patterson is not recalled by September 2nd, one of his three minor league options will get burned.

It's not that burning an option year is the end of the world, it's just that doing it when it isn't necessary doesn't make sense. It's generally a good idea (if possible) to save minor league options up until a player hits five years of MLB service time (see Will Ohman), at which point he can refuse an optional assignment to the minors and then it doesn't matter anymore.

JUST CALL UP GEO SOTO!

Btw, hurricane update -- no rain, no wind yet; Dean has apparently stalled or is planning to enter the peninsula in the morning. I'm doing well so far.

CWTP:I posted plenty about it.Not my fault you didn’t bother to read the posts. He gave an interview where he explained where his “new” power came from.

CWTP, thanks for answering a parachat question from Sunday. You're number one with a bullet!!

Good luck Carlos. We're all rooting for you. For those keeping score at home: so far Carlos 1, Dean 0.

Hey Carlos...hope all is still well...be safe and kick Dean's butt.

I'll tell you Phil, how do you keep this all straight? Send him down? Burn an option. Don't bring him up in time? Burn an option. It reminds me of this classic "Simpsons" moment:

"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!"

- Jasper

Be safe, Carlos.

Jasper!!!!!! Great reference Chad!!

Is anyone else amazed that A-Ram (E-Ram?) didnt get charged with an error on that grounder by Rolen? that was a really generous double.

He has to charge that ball. It is almost 99% never a good idea to wait back on the ball like he did. This is a purely unscientific number, of course.

Conine gets signed by Mets. Way to go, Jimbo!

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/me...

Conine gets signed by Mets.

The Mets traded for Conine... they didn't sign him.

Murton has had a tough year, and it isn't going to get any easier. When Soriano comes back and reclaims left field, Murton will have to move over to right field and get in line behind Floyd, Ward, DeRosa, plus Jones if Pie gets a few more games in center. If a lefty starts, who gets the call in right, Murton or Fox? Any bets?

This is a missed opportunity for Murton. He needed to show more pop. Look at Ankiel. Even that guy Ludwick has 10 home runs. Chris Duncan, 20.

If a lefty starts, who gets the call in right, Murton or Fox? Any bets?

Well... being that Murton has been starting in LF over Fox, I would think that Murton would start in RF over Fox.

DeRosa? DeRosa is pretty clearly the starting 2B, especially considering how bad Fontenot has been since the beginning of July. Pie? If Pie was going to play over Jones/Murton, he wouldn't have been sitting on the bench already.

But once Soriano comes back, it will be interesting. The Cubs will be back to the Floyd/Murton platoon, but hopefully Murton will still get at-bats against rhp. And Ward will probably go back to his normal role - ph off the bench.

We’ll see about E-Pat and Coats [for September callup.]

I like Coats's season, but ten home runs in AAA don't earn you a shot at right field. Coats is a nice offensive package--for a shortstop.

The Cubs are still looking for a center and a right fielder for next season. In-house possibilities might be Fuld and Patterson in center and Kroeger in right. Kroeger's a better hitter than Fox, and a better fielder, if old scouting reports are to be believed.

Kroeger’s a better hitter than Fox

Lets see...

Kroeger's career minor league line: .284/.338/.446 OPS: 784
Fox's career minor league line: .286/.342/.493 OPS: 835

One year does not make a better hitter.

Rob G:
I've been getting Wordpress "failure to establish contact with the database" errors from the main page and refreshing the comment pop-up box. Just FYI

And now a time out/page not found the first time I tried to post this comment.

Well… being that Murton has been starting in LF over Fox, I would think that Murton would start in RF over Fox.

Not that simple. Fox was brought up to help jumpstart the Cubs' offense against lefties. He started in right field against the two Cincy lefties. St.Louis didn't start any lefties against the Cubs.

The question was, what would Lou do when he had to decide between Murton and Fox against a lefty.

Also factor in right field, where Fox, a catcher, presumably has a strong arm.

I'm not sure we'll see Murton in right again.

"The Mets traded for Conine… they didn’t sign him."

Well, as a 5+ Vet, I am sure he would have had to sign something asserting his approval to the deal.

Well, as a 5+ Vet, I am sure he would have had to sign something asserting his approval to the deal.

No... you only have an automatic no-trade clause if you have been in the league for ten years (which Conine has) and been with the same team for five years (which Conine has NOT).

And I do not believe that he had a no-trade clause.

All you have to do to see my point, VA Phil, is read the rest of Rothschild's quote:

I like to see a pitcher who has a good enough understanding and feeling for the game that he knows what pitches he wants to throw in which situations ... that no matter what the catcher puts down, it doesn’t mean anything to you because you know what you want to do.

This pitcher vs. catcher debate is getting old. First, you can speak for yourself Wes, but not for all pitchers, nor for major league pitchers since youd didn't make it that far. Second, it's a fact that far more catchers become managers than pitchers. It is generally accepted that many catchers are very baseball savoy and smart. You act like every pitcher is very smart, when in fact a lot of them are dumb and don't know what to throw. Experience also matters. I doubt Pigniatello shook off Kendall in his debut. A veteran catcher who knows the hitters is likely to call much of the game - not a young pitcher.

Your quote from Rothchild actually proves VA Phil's point. If Rothchild is hoping to see that type of pitcher it means that right now they are not all like that. He's explaining an ideal type.

the catcher/pitcher have to be on the same page. the pitcher can and will shake off their catcher if its not what they want. BOTH GUYS CAN CARRY THE GAME, BUT NOT A SINGLE PITCH HAS TO LEAVE THE PITCHER'S HAND WITHOUT HIM GIVING THE OKAY (not counting a pitch being called from a coach/manager).

this is the pitcher's game. the catcher's most important job is to be on the same page as the guy who's about to throw some 70-100mph junk at him from 60ft. away.

if a catcher calls for 8 curve balls in a row and the pitcher throws 8 curve balls in a row the pitching coach wont go to the catcher and ask him what's up (actually, he might cuz its stupid), but he'll definately go to the pitcher and tell him to take control of his game.

"I don’t understand why the Cubs didn’t put in a claim for Conine."

I don't understand why we didn't go for a variety of right handed bats for the bench. Conine was one of many guys we could have picked up.

this whole catcher vs pitcher thing IS old. Let's move on...

The Cubs pitching staff has been pretty much the same all year no matter who's been catching. If you're going to point to Z, please explain Z's 2004-2006 to me with Barrett. The Cubs pitching staff was better in 2004 than 2003 with worst pitchers and Barrett behind the plate. Explain that one to me as well.

The Cards staff has been mostly horrible all year with the savior Yadier Molina. Explain.

Kendall's got a reputation as one the best game-callers in the business. Explain.

I'll do it for you, pitchers pitch, catchers catch (and hit). There overall effect on a pitcher over a season is not even worth mentioning.

Hey, Rob, I thought you wanted to move on!

It's academic at this point anyway with Hill gone. If he wanted to keep the conversation going, he should have gotten a few more hits.

The guy who keeps his OBP above .350 gets to call the pitches.

Second, it’s a fact that far more catchers become managers than pitchers. It is generally accepted that many catchers are very baseball savoy and smart.

Actually that would be because they are the only player in baseball with a rudimentary understanding of what to do when their team is on the field AND when their team is at the plate. No other position in baseball can claim that. I've said multiple times that pitchers are bad managers because they don't know when to bunt, hit & run, etc.

A veteran catcher who knows the hitters is likely to call much of the game - not a young pitcher.

And a veteran pitcher is likely to call much of the game - not a young catcher. Such as: Ryan Dempster or Bob Howry. Not Koyie Hill.

"I’ve said multiple times that pitchers are bad managers because they don’t know when to bunt, hit & run, etc."

I was trying to find examples of the successful pitchers - managers in the last 30 years - Roger Craig's Giants won a pennant in 1989 (and also the Master of the Splitter), Bud Black is doing pretty damn well with the Pads this year. That's all I can think of...

Tommy Lasorda was a pitcher

yet tommy lasorda was a posterboy for running pitchers out for 130-150 pitch outtings. go figure.

#41 Chad: Which one is it sedagive? Are we lucky that we didn’t get a split or did we get screwed? Make up your mind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I said probably, it implied that they were lucky to have the 4th game pushed to (hopefully) when Soriano is in the lineup, but that I felt that they had a greater than even shot at taking 3 of 4 or sweeping the series. Sorry for the unintelligible post, though I might have owed it to you. I remember back in '03 when I couldn't tell the difference between you and CUBFAN.

As far as the possibility of a September 5 game series in St. Louis is concerned I guess I should feel shame for having thought it an option.

dude, i was kidding with that post.

but Cubfan? Him and I were day and night. Not a judgement but an observation. He and I disagreed on everything.

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