Game 143 Thread / Cards @ Cubs (4 of 4)

Game Chat : BR Preview : Game Notes Joel Pineiro vs. Ted Lilly Lineups:
Ryan 3B Soriano LF
Taguchi LF Theriot SS
Pujols 1B Lee 1B
Ankiel RF Floyd RF
Molina C Ramirez 3B
Edmonds CF DeRosa 2B
Miles 2B Jones CF
Pineiro P Kendall C
Eckstein SS Lilly P
Notes: This game is the make-up for the 8/19 rainout that spoiled Carlos Zambrano’s near no-hitter vs. the Cardinals (“near” as in, just six innings short). When the rain fell, the Cubs were 63-59, one-half-game ahead of the Brewers and four up on St. Louis. Since then, the Cubs have gone 9-11, the Brewers are 10-9, and the Cards, 11-9. In other words, things haven’t changed much in three weeks and a day, except that the Cubs now have 20 fewer games to discover that one remaining hot streak they supposedly have left in them. Today’s pitching matchup is a repeat of the Pineiro-Lilly duel when the teams last met on 8/20, the day after the rainout. The Cards won that day, 6-4, and Lilly was hit hard, particularly by Scott Rolen, who smacked two doubles and drove in three runs. The Cub lefty is fresh off a victory at Wrigley against the Dodgers, and he will tie a career high if he can notch his 15th win of the season this afternoon. The Brewers play at Pittsburgh tonight. In fact, this is the only day game in the majors, which means all eyes, especially those that seek out games between profoundly mediocre baseball teams, will be trained on Clark & Addison.
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Comments

As my dad used to say when he was competitive in handball: "You gotta WANT it . . . "

I like trying Floyd batting clean-up. Well, actually, I like that our clean-up hitter will have some protection (Rammy), not so much the Floyd part per se.

And the Cardinals lineup sports a new clean-up hitter, too. I wish he weren't hitting .478 against left-handed pitching (granted, only 23 AB).

Does LaRussa bat Eckstein 9th just to be annoying?.

I still say that Floyd should not be getting the PT he is getting. He has provided the Cubs with very little thump...

I think Floyd has generally been a disaster. You're telling me you don't think Murton could put up the 'numbers' Floyd has with equal playing time? I just tend to doubt it.

I really think sometimes Jim spends money just for the sake of spending it. This last week has been a one long kick in the balls. I think this week will be more of the same...starting today.

Maybe it's a symptom of working for a big corporation. If you have a big budget, you better spend all of it, otherwise next year they'll say "well, you didn't need it last year, why do you need it now" and cut it. It's a pretty silly idea that Hendry would spend for this reason, but it wouldn't surprise me, as I know for a fact this happens in companies.

From rotoworld.....

Sep 9 Joe Strauss, of The St. Louis Post-Dispatch, reports St. Louis Cardinals OF Chris Duncan (hernia) may be in doubt for the remainder of the season after he aggravated what the club described as a sports hernia. Manager Tony La Russa ruled out Duncan for the final four games of a three-city trip that takes the Cardinals to Chicago for a Sept. 10 makeup against the Chicago Cubs and to Cincinnati for a three-game series against the Reds. Duncan will return to St. Louis for further examination and possible surgery.

My God... I can't believe the number of Cards that are falling by the wayside... and yet they're still hanging around...

woo, stuck at work, no TV feed, and evidently, no Parachat from this computer. At least got Pat and Ron on... GO CUBS!

Actually, Carlos almost (as in just 6 innings short) pitched a perfect game that day if I remember correctly.

.... and Floyd produces... That is how bitching about the lineup is upposed to work, people!

Edmonds HR 1-1...

ANYONE but Edmonds...DAMN!!!!!!!!!

Nice hustle by DeRosa, but Floyd looked like a fish flopping around out of water in RF on that play...

Anyone have the skinny on that fly ball by Miles that deflected off of Floyd, ended up being a single, but then DeRosa threw him out at second? Was that just a big gaffe by Floyd, or was it pretty hard to get to?

Jace-
Floyd got a very late jump on a flyball to RF. He tried to make a sliding catch and missed it and it caroomed off toward DeRosa at 2B. Miles tried to take 2B and DeRosa made a perfect throw and got him. But IMO, Floyd should of been able to make the catch without having to even slide.

Okay, thanks manny.

Len just announced Trachsel is going to be pitching on Thursday, on short rest. WTF!!!!!!!!!!

Trachsel only threw 47 pitches, his arm could be "normal" by Thursday.

I, for one, would like to impose the "20,487 man rotation" schedule for Trachsel. That way, the next time he would be up to pitch, would be in the year 2133. I'll be dead (I would imagine he'll be retired by then.... someone would have to realize that he doesn't belong pitching in the majors by then...

WOOO!!!

Lee and ARam getting their power groove on. Cubs 3-1..

Cubs offense busting this game open. Cubs 6-1....WOO!!!!!!!!!

6 hits this inning.

Man, I go and sit down for a 10-minute meeting, and the Cubs choose that moment to break out the whoopass.... I like it!

... and then it promptly ends after I sit down at my desk again...

Manny, in order to save Zambrano for Friday, someone was going to have to pitch Thursday. The options were Hart (who pitched Sunday), Marshall (who pitched Sunday), Gallagher, or Trachsel on short rest. Also, we need one of those pitchers to go on Saturday with the doubleheader. I am guessing (but I could be wrong) that Marshall will then go Saturday with Lilly, since Trachsel is going Thursday. It seems as though the reason is they are preferred over Hart/Gallagher.

Greetings, Professor Falkenborg. Would you like to play a game?

Come on dammit, that's a sac fly. Ankiel can't hit the plate from the mound, what makes you think he can hit it from RF?

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com...

Trachsel on Thursday with 3 days rest as mentioned and Z and Lilly will both go next week on 3 days rest.

Don't we have 6 starters?

and according to the tentative rotation mapped out by Sulivan, Trachsel and Marshall might only get one more start each.

Trachsel Thursday and Marshall during the doubleheader.

Who, according to Gameday, got injured?

" Z and Lilly will both go next week on 3 days rest."

Getting them ready for the playoffs?

Who, according to Gameday, got injured?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Home Plate ump Ed Rapuano got hit with a broken bat..(either Soriano's or Theriot's)..I was half listening at that moment...

Man, took them forever to get their bats untracked - hope this leads to something over the next few weeks.

Does anyone have stats on Lilly and Z going on three days rest? I know we're at a critical point in the season, but most starters seem to perform poorly on three days, at least if they're used to going in a 5 - man rotation.

Does anyone have stats on Lilly and Z going on three days rest?
-------------------------------------------------------
Big Z has had two games, but didn't start either game.
3IP, 2H, 1R, 2K 3.00 ERA

Lilly has appeared in 5 games, starting only 1.
12IP, 13H, 6R, 6BB, 11K 4.50 ERA

Hope we didn't use 'em all up today. Hope we still got some left in the bats tomorrow.

As I've said before, I would rather see Marshall than Trashel. Or even Rich Hill pitching on fewer days rest. Based on Wes' theory, which sounds right to me, I think Hill would respond well to it.

I don't understand what Lou is doing at all. First giving him 5 days, then 3 days??? Honestly, Wins are wins here on out...I don't think we should stack our deck against STL and throw Z off schedule because of it.

It's one thing if the Cubs were down 4 games now and it was do or die...but with us close with Milwaukee, we should treat games equally and go with what gives us the best chance to win the most games, not just win games against a certain opponent.

Also, I bet Floyd hurt his ankle fouling off a pitch today. He played through but I bet, with his brittle bones, that he injured it.

Also Mr. Wuertz: warm up before you come on. It helps you throw strikes!

Agreed blackhead.

Agreed blockhead.

blackhead. ick. :-)

Cub Killer Jack Wilson, still killing the Cubs. Left 5 on in his first 2 at bats.

Can't score off Tony Armas Jr. = Embarrassing

blockhead25:
Cub Killer Jack Wilson, still killing the Cubs. Left 5 on in his first 2 at bats.

He's afraid of doing something good with Cesar Izturis in the dugout. He doesn't want the Aramis Ramirez treatment.

Nyjer Morgan hits a ground rule double to left. With that guy's speed me thinks it could have been a triple!

2-0 Pirates
Woot!

Uh oh, watch out McLouth.

woo hoo bad defense!

Armas out after only 65 pitches in 6 innings...I guess Tracy knows how long liking can strike the same place.

4-0 Pirates!

FWIW, I'm not particularly concerned with Trachsel on the short rest since his outing yesterday was so short. Don't think he's worried much about the arm being too tired, since he only threw 42 or whatever it was.

I'm concerned about Trachsel because he's Trachsel, however.

I'm far more concerned about fucking with Zambrano and Lily's schedule, than Trachsel. With Trachsel we have nothing to lose. With Z & Lily, we have a lot to lose.

Well, with Trachsel pitching, we have a game to lose.

my point is...we can expect him to suck on 3 or 4 days rest, doesn't matter.

Where did that come from Tony Armas?

um thanks though...go Pirate bullpen.

Lou said he wanted to get them back on schedule after the double-header I guess, I imagine they'll have shorter pitch counts the start before and the game they go on 3 days rest.

Pittsburgh stomping Milwaukee 8-0. Looks like Cubs will be tied for first with 19 games left:

3 at Houston
4 at St Louis
3 at home v. Cincinnati
3 at home v. Pittsburgh
3 at Florida
3 at Cincinnati

St Louis (21 left)

3 at Cincinnati
4 at home v. Cubs
3 at home v. Phillies
4 at home v. Houston
3 at Brewers
1 at New York
3 at Pittsburgh

Milwaukee (19 left)

2 at Pittsburgh
3 at home v. Cincinnati
3 at Houston
4 at Atlanta
3 at home v. St Louis
4 at home v. San Diego

I vaguely understand Lou's thought process. I just think it's playing with fire. We have 19 games left, and if they shorten their pitch count, and pitch them on short rest...that's 4 games that could be effected by that move.

I'd rather them him just keep the rotation stable even if it means having things thrown off for the last weekend of the season. Winning now is more important.

So Pirates playing 10 straight against Cubs, Brewers, Cardinals...now 5-3. That's a pretty good definition of a September "spoiler".

Hopefully they can keep spoiling for 2 more games.

Cubs on track for the 8-win week.

DeRosa elbow swollen from getting hit today....might not be able to play tomorrow according to AP Game recap

Back in first place tie. If we can take 2 in Houston and 2 in STL we should be in pretty good shape as the schedule is in our favor, big time, the last two weeks.

DeRosa could use a game off anyway -- he plays every day.

My concern on the schedule is that the Brewers play their last 7 (I think) at home, where they are dominant and confident.

Lou's rationale was he wanted the rotation to be Z, Lilly, Marquis, Hill, and SP #5 beginning Friday. He feels Larry and Lou have managed pitch counts very well all season and Z/Lilly can pitch effectively this 1 time on less than normal rest.

Wes, please feel free to weigh in on this.......it doesn't seem out of whack to me, but then I manage teenagers not MLB pitchers.

I don't think he has much choice but to start Trachsel on Thursday what with Marshall pitching game 2 on Saturday and STL has more LH hitters, I believe. So, unless you wanted to see Gallagher or Hart against Houston, Lou is going with a veteran who has been through a pennant race before.

All that being said, I would look for this to be Trachsel's last start unless he shows something in Houston with Marshall returning to the rotation. And I don't see Trachsel making the playoff roster.

its september...its expanded rosters...

i hate the move, too...seems a pointless strain given the extra arms around.

team already has 6 mlb-ready starters...they got mr. cutter kid who can start...there's not a roster crunch...why move them up 2 days...why not 1 day and let marshall/hart pitch?

can we expect them to throw a limited amount and burn the pen over a 3 day period?

there's just so many +/- to it i dont see the point of making the gamble...esp. moving it up to 3 days rest over 4...

Ask Jake Peavy how it is to pitch on 3 days rest.

Crunch -- "mr. cutter kid"?

Who you mean? I'm lost . . . .

You mean Marmol?

He means Hart, I believe.

Huntsville 8, Tennessee 7. Huntsville (affiliated with the Brewers) takes the series 3 games to 2.

Down 8-5, Tennesee scores a run in 8th. Colvin makes it 8-7 with a double in the 9th, moving the tying run to 3rd with one out. Then a K and a groundout.

For some reason, four of the five games were played in Huntsville.

#59 blockhead:
we should be in pretty good shape as the schedule is in our favor, big time, the last two weeks.

adam, the schedule may say 2007 reds, but the cubs manage to play them as though these were the 1976 reds. possibly being in a must-win situation vs harang or arroyo- or even both- would be a tall order.

here's hoping the cubs do their business against houston and st. looie, and let the pressure rest on the brewers instead.

Impressions from being at the game:

A) Cardinals can KISS MY ASS.

B) Howry = still the best

C) Despite blowing them out, still managed to strand HOW MANY runners?

D) Go Cubs

"we should be in pretty good shape as the schedule is in our favor, big time, the last two weeks."

ANYONE who says this has not been watching this team against the "bad" teams in the division, nor has been reading posters W-L records of the team against said "bad" teams.

C) Despite blowing them out, still managed to strand HOW MANY runners?

Good offenses almost always strand a lot of runners. You can only strand runners if you get runners on base.

You can't get too worried about stranding runners when you score 12.

I too was at the game - probably the worst seats I have ever had, but still a great view. A nice thing about a small park - few bad views.

Another observation - it was really, really cold.

Another observation - it is fun to go to a Cubs/Cards game with Cards fans - especially when the Cubs win.

Last one - I had an extra ticket, and didn't try to hard to sell it (not many people want to buy one reserved ticket). So I gave it away to a guy who claimed to not have any cash. And then he came in, say in the wrong seat (in the row in front of us), and preceded to buy a beer. That was bothersome.

Oh well...

Go Cubs!

Yay, go Cubs...

This morning's playoff odds report on Baseball Prospectus:

Cubs: 50.32569% chance of winning division, 0.15732% chance of Wild Card

Brewers: 43.36687% division title, 0.14885% Wild Card

Cardinals: 6.28940% division title, 0.00450% Wild Card

Going into yesterday's game, the Cubs had a 35.68197% chance of winning the division (Brewers 55.56204% and Cards 8.74349%), so the win and Brewers loss swung the percentages 12-15% in our favor.

It's all rather silly but definitely a nice morning pick-me-up.

I'm hoping the 3 against the Braves and the final 4 at SD for the Brewers will knock them out.

I don't like the idea of a pitcher going on three days rest unless he throws maybe 45 pitches due to a rain-out (as happened with Zambrano last month) or knock-out (as happened with Trachsel at Pittsburgh on Sunday) in his previous outing.

I especially don't like it if it means my team's two best pitchers are doing it in consecutive games, because the one thing you want out of your best pitchers this time of year is the absolutely best possible game they can pitch (throwing 100-120 pitches, as necesaary) when they do throw, and I don't think you get that when they throw with only three days rest. And both Zambrano and Lilly have games where they are effective, but also where they throw a lot of pitches per inning and run up their pitch counts to 100 in just five or six innings. Can they be expected to throw 100-120 pitches on three days rest?

It would be different if pitchers were developed in the minors throwing on three days rest and were used to it and every team did it (as I remember being the case back in the 60's), but today's pitchers just aren't trained to do that.

Personally, I believe (right now) the Astros and Reds are more potent adversaries than are the Cardinals, The Cards are trailing smoke right now, and I just don't think the Cubs should look past Houston, as they would be doing by pitching Trachsel instead of Zambrano on Thursday.

I would MUCH rather see Zambrano pitch Thursday (on getaway day) at Houston (heck, maybe he'll even hit a couple of dingers off Woody Williams) and then again on Tuesday 9/18 versus CIN (on four days rest) than have Trachsel drag and loiter his way through getaway day on Thursday at Houston, with Zambrano going on Friday at STL and then on three days rest the next Tuesday versus CIN.

I think the best pitching rotation for the rest of the season would be:

Marquis-Hill-Zambrano at HOU
Marshall-Trachsel-Lilly Marquis at STL (Trachsel in Game #1 on Saturday so bullpen will be fresh)
Hill-Zambrano-Marshall versus CIN at Wrigley
DAY OFF
Lilly-Marquis-Zambrano versus PIT at Wrigley
DAY OFF
Hill-Lilly-Marquis at FLA
Zambrano-Marshall-Hill at CIN.
Then Lilly pitches either tie-breaker game on Monday (if necessary) or else Game #1 in the NLDS, with Zambrano going in Game #2 of the NLDS.

DC Tom, well, I assume that if the Cubs lose today and the other two teams win, the odds will go back to what they were a couple of days ago.

jacos — September 11, 2007 @ 8:47 am
I’m hoping the 3 against the Braves and the final 4 at SD for the Brewers will knock them out.

=========================

JACOS: What worries me about the Brewers playing SD the last weekend of the regular season is what happens if the Padres have clinched a playoff slot and want to give their regular players a day off or two and hold back their best pitchers (like Peavy) for the start of the NLDS?

Young, hungry, and loose teams like the Pirates, Marlins, and Reds are the most-dangerous game right now, and will be through to the end of the season.

I couldnt agree more with you in 76 AZ Phil. It just seems to be inviting something bad. All the while providing little upside in pitching Z and Lilly on short rest. Best case Scenerio is that both guys are effective and pitch lights out for the 75-80 pitches they will be able to go. Then you have to look at a bullpen that endures heavy innings during the starts of your "aces" while staring down the backside of the rotation. I thougth the whole reason we dumped 2 prospects for Trachsel was so we could avoid this whole mess?

Better not think that the schedule is favorable when considering teams with losing records. 2004 proved that. We took it in the shorts from the Mets and Reds (both bad teams that year) and the last weekend after the Braves had clinched we still lost when any of those games mattered (the outlook was bleak anyway at that point).

It's how well the Cubs play that will determine this season at this point and it's not about the opposition (except the cardinal-Cubs and cardinal-brewer series).

Also -- I'm pretty sure the Brewers last 4 against SD are in MIlwaukee -- so they finish the season with 7 home gaems, where they have been dominant.

Unless the Cubs decide to finally STEP IT UP !! the schedule doesn't favor us. The Cubs are actually playing 1 game under .500 in the National League. What's been confusing to fans is the Cubs have winning records against Milwaukee and St.Louis but after that the list is really short. We're a combined
+22 (I believe) against Milwaukee, St.Louis, Washington, San Francisco, Colorado, and the American League. .500 against Houston (I think) and under .500 against everyone else.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but versus the teams remaining on our schedule, we're under .500 and somehow managed to be swept by the Marlins.

The last 11 days of the schedule the BREW play some very tough teams - records not withstanding.

ATL, CARDS, SD

It will be no picnic for them.

And as I and many have stated already - there has been and will be no "easy" schedule for the Cubs.

Its just gonna be can they win 12-15 games of the last 20?

If they do, they'll be in. If not, its "wait 'til next year."

As long as Oh-Man! doesn't pitch, we'll have a chance to win it.

My unscientific realistic look at remaining schedule:

Chicago Cubs (73-70)
3 at Houston (1-2)
4 at St Louis (2-2)
3 vs. Cincinnati (2-1)
3 vs. Pittsburgh (2-1)
3 at Florida
3 at Cincinnati

St Louis (21 left)

3 at Cincinnati
4 at home v. Cubs
3 at home v. Phillies
4 at home v. Houston
3 at Brewers
1 at New York
3 at Pittsburgh

Milwaukee (19 left)

2 at Pittsburgh
3 at home v. Cincinnati
3 at Houston
4 at Atlanta
3 at home v. St Louis
4 at home v. San Diego

AZ Phil said: Young, hungry, and loose teams like the Pirates, Marlins, and Reds are the most-dangerous game right now.

You've given me a great description of the Cubs: old, overpaid and tight. (That's a joke, I hope.)

Oops...

My rough, unscientific look at remaining schedule:

Chicago Cubs (73-70)
3 at Houston (1-2)
4 at St Louis (2-2)
3 vs. Cincinnati (2-1)
3 vs. Pittsburgh (2-1)
3 at Florida (1-2)
3 at Cincinnati (1-2)
Cubs end up: 82-80

Milwaukee (73-70)
2 at Pittsburgh (1-1)
3 vs. Cincinnati (2-1)
3 at Houston (1-2)
4 at Atlanta (2-2)
3 vs. St Louis (2-1)
4 vs. San Diego (2-2)
Brewers end up: 83-79

St Louis (69-72)
3 at Cincinnati (1-2)
4 at home v. Cubs (2-2)
3 at home v. Phillies (1-2)
4 at home v. Houston (2-2)
3 at Brewers (1-2)
1 at New York (0-1)
3 at Pittsburgh (1-2)
Cardinals end up: 77-85

This assumes no sweeps, losing the series' on the road and winning the series' at home. Again, this is a rough look at it, but could be very close to the way things turn out.

cubs suck a little more at playing "bad" teams etc etc etc...

well...

rather have 10 games left vs. the mets and dodgers or something?

cin/pit/hou/fla sounds good to me...i'll take that over more stacked teams. the past is over...all we got is today and the future.

team dropped 3 in a row vs. hou and won 3 in a row vs. them...go baseball.

The key will be the type and quality of starting pitching that the Cubs and Brewers will face from here on out.

How many lefty starters will the Cubs face?

San Diego is not a tough team if you don't have to face Peavy or Chris Young and Adrian Gonzalez and Milton Bradley take a couple days off to rest.

We are lucky that the four-game Brewers-Braves series next week comes early enough that the Braves will still be trying to make the playoffs. Bobby Cox does not give up easily and both Smoltz and Hudson are likely to pitch in that series.

In the end, I think either the Cubs or the Brewers will go on an 8-2 tear in the next ten games while the other team flounders. Both the Cubs and Brewers are flawed teams in several ways but they are both better than this coincident spell of mediocrity both teams have shown in the last month.

I can only attribute all this angst Hendry and Lou are having with our starting rotation to PANIC!! over Z's recent five game meltdown. Picking up Trashel, demoting Marshall, claiming they don't have a six man rotation, then inventing a "need" to pitch starters on 3 days rest when we have two off days later this month are all signs that gears are loose in the Cubs brainrust.

But look at this: The NL leader in the race for the Cy Young, Jake Peavy, has a record of 16-6.

Ted Lilly's record is 15-7
--------------------------------

Our #1 and #2 pitchers are a combined 30-19. Who wouldn't have taken that when the season began?!

Our other controversial SP acquisition was Jason Marquis.
Marquis is 11-8. Lilly+Marquis are a combined 26-15. Who wouldn't have taken that when the season began?!

Rich Hill is 8-8 and Sean Marshall is 7-7, a combined 15-15 and who wouldn't have taken that from our #4 and #5 starters when the season began?

So our starting rotation has a combined record of 56-32, all five have a shot at double digit winning seasons, or did until The Trash was picked up. The worst ERA on the staff belongs to our "ace" Carlos Zambrano at 4.26 --- the other four have a combined ERA of 3.86. And that looks pretty good to me.

Unless their arms are falling off, which is always a possibility in Chicago, I don't understand the finger pointing and messing with the rotation.

Knowing the pressure we Cubs fans will be under in the next few weeks, let's take a step back and have a laugh...

http://mike.wordpress.com/2007/04/26/bill-mur...

Re: # 86

I have a feeling that Manny's prediction may be pretty close to right. The Cubs have 12 games left against Pittsburgh, Houston and Cincinnati. Manny has them playing splitting those games. I think they need to play above .500 in those games to win, preferably 2 or 4 games over (i.e., 7-5 or 8-4), and do no worse than split the Cardinal series. I think the division winner will need at least 84 wins.

re 86

I still see the Brewers finishing under .500 so as long as we win 81, were going to the playoffs.

er, Vegas Brian, great stuff from Bill Murray but I don't want to relive 1987. Not now. The Cubs completely collapsed in September 1987.

The collapsed in Sept. 87? Sure they were a couple of games over .500 but the Cards, Mets and Expos (?) all won more than 90 games. The Cubs never had a chance.

You have to be a pessimist to think the Cubs are gonna lose the division to an 83-79 team. All this Cubs team has to do to get to 83 wins is play .500 baseball against the National League. (10-9 the rest of the way)

vs. American League 8-4
vs. National League 75-75

er, Vegas Brian, great stuff from Bill Murray but I don’t want to relive 1987. Not now. The Cubs completely collapsed in September 1987.
---------------------------------------------------------
They were 12 games out by September. This was one of their famous June Swoons that season. They were 10 over on May 24, and 40-37 by June 30th.

The Cubs lost 21 games in September '87 Chadtroll.

You have to be a pessimist

Wait... mannytrillo a pessimist? Who would have thought?

CWTP:

I know. I looked it up. And if you think that they were going to go 25 - 5 in their last 30 games, you are crazy.

#90 Vegas Brian: Thanks. Bill Murray's call of the lineups in the first video is great. Makes me miss Stoney though.

Dave:
"Wait… mannytrillo a pessimist? Who would have thought?"

Not really a pessimist, more like a realist. Remember, I was the one who said the Cubs would win 83 games before the season started and got bashed for being a pessimist.

And Dave, that is funny coming from you the biggest Cubs player apologist on this board.

CWTP:
"The Cubs lost 21 games in September ‘87 Chadtroll."

To be factual, the Cubs lost 18 games in September '87and 3 in October '87. And they were 13 games back going into September that year. How the hell would you consider that a collapse? They weren't even in contention.

MANNY! Comes out Swingin'!

And Dave, that is funny coming from you the biggest Cubs player apologist on this board.

I apologize for some, don't apologize for others.

I sure haven't "apologized" for Soriano, or Fontenot, or Zambrano, or Trachsel, or Pagan, etc.

Good effing Grief! The Cubs were 3 games over .500 on September 1, 1987. They went 9-21 to finish out the season.

You "should of"(sic) looked up the meaning of collapse. HOW THE HELL ISN"T that a collapse? You're saying they didn't fall on their face in September? "2003 Instant Cub Fans" may think like that, if you can call it thinking, but no real Cub fans do.

Collapse or not who gives a shit? It didn't matter if the played .500 ball. It's only really a collapse when you had a chance at something. The 69 Cubs was a collapse. 2004 was. But 1987 wasn't.

so maybe we can call it a meaningless collapse?

how about a collapstomy?

wtf does 1987 have to do with 2007?

who cares?

cubs could play 10-10 ball or 20-0 ball or 0-20 ball...so could MIL and STL.

until one of us gets a working clairvoyant to supply us with these things...and winning lotto #s...we got jack.

the short series is unpredictable enough without handicapping 5-6 of them.

hell, the cubs could go vallant and hardcore win 18 of 20 while the brewers win 20 of 20.

find out soon enough.

I don't see anywhere that cwtp referred to a collapse and I can't believe anyone would think of accusing him of trying to say there was a collapse.

Sheesh...

[/sarcasm]

person 1 says its a collapse cuz they fell outta .500

person 2 says its not a collapse cuz they were never in contention anyway

person 2's statement and basis for it is ignored...person 1 calls people who think like person 2 fly-by-night amatuer fan because only true fans who know the game think properly like person number 1.

at no point did k.hill make any of this any better, thought m.barrett is partially to blame.

I only have one thing to say:

Thank God for the Cardinals.

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