TCR Game 3 Roundtable

A chance to relive the horror... ---------------- (After Chris Young's first pitch homer and Drew's sun-aided double) Rob G: Should Jason Marquis have been warming up before the first pitch? Cubnut: Prediction: Cliff Floyd won't be the only guy who is victimized by that late afternoon sun today. (Hill K's Jackson) If we can hold them to one run, maybe this half-inning will actually provide a momentum boost for us. (Upton singles in a run) If we can hold them to two runs, maybe this half-inning will provide a momentum boost for us. Rob G: Well maybe that inning will give Lou a momentum boost to get the bullpen going. (To the bottom of the first) Cubnut: FONSIE WALKS?! ON A PITCH CLOSE TO THE STRIKE ZONE?!! GOD REALLY DOES WANT US TO WIN THIS GAME!!! Rob G: And Theriot hits into a DP, I think God just wants to torture us. Cubnut: Cliff really knows how to "sell it." This patience is a really good sign. Un-Cub-like, but good. Rob G: A little too much patience from Aramis there. When do we start talking about 2008? Rob G: At first I thought the ump had a small strike zone, now I see that it's just random. Cubnut: Agreed. Other home plate umpires play chess; Greg Gibson is playing Risk, except his little sister lost the rules and he's having to make them up as he goes along. Speaking of 2008, assuming the Cubs lose this game and/or go on to lose the series, what do you think the new owners will do with Hendry and McDonough. I say Hendry is gone. McDonough, who in my mind is utterly unqualified for the position he was elevated to, could be, too. Rob G: Depends on when new ownership takes over in my opinion. If a deal isn't finalized until the spring of 2008 as has been rumored, I can see Hendry lasting through 2008. McDonough would probably get canned immediately. (Bottom of the 2nd with 2 runners on) On another note, why was Rich Hill up there instead of a pinch hitter? The kid obviously doesn't have it going today. Cubnut: Re: Hill staying in the game to bunt--I'm thinking that Lou is thinking it's only a matter of time until the Cubs put some runs on the board and that he could afford to keep Hill in the game, thus saving his bullpen for those Games 4 & 5 we're all planning on. Rob G: Yeah good point, Lou's thinking long-term strategy, I mean after all it's a LONG baseball season and everything. We'll go get'em tomorrow. (To the third, more runners on) Rob G: Dear deity of baseball, What would it take for an extra base hit with runners on? I'm willing to negotiate. Cubnut: I just saw Ramirez hit into an inning-ending double play. Sarcasm fails me. Rob G: So at what point do we pinch hit for Ramirez? Cubnut: Can Soto play third? (Hernandez just singled; Hill coming out) Cubnut:I think the next two or three hitters will determine whether we have any more Cub baseball after tonight. (After the Douchebacks score their third run - don't hate me Bruce Miles) Cubnut: Byrnes was safe. DeRosa took forever to make that turn. Rob G: He was. I thought Ramirez should have went home with it. I also think we should get a hit with runners on base. I also want to solve global warming. I wouldn't mind world peace either. Too much? Rob G: I can't take credit for this one, that goes to "iowacubs" during the game chat: "If the Brewers keep losing, tho, can't we still advance to the NLCS?" I thought I'd share... Cubnut: Okay, it's officially getting dark. I withdraw my earlier prediction about the late-afternoon sun messing with fly balls and pop-ups. My next prediction is that if we're don't any runs tonight, we're going to lose. The WGN Radio/WTBS sync is off by a good five seconds tonight. Apparently WGN consciously tried to line up with the tv broadcast for Game 2, but tonight, they won't delay their transmission because they want it to work for fans listening to their radios at the ballpark. Nonetheless, I am muting the tv, listening to Hughes and Santo and turning to the set when there is something to see. (To the bottom of the fourth with a man on third...) Cubnut: Soriano is going to jump at something. I hope it's a strike. Rob G: Well the bottom of the fourth was a bit of an improvement, instead of abysmal failure the Cubs have upgraded to mild disappointment. Here's hoping to the Carlos Marmol that doesn't give up any runs. Cubnut: I can't believe we're only through four innings. It usually takes six or seven for me to feel this much stomach upset. Cubnut: At all times, the Diamondbacks are putting men in scoring position and the Cubs are leaving men in scoring position. Rob G: How quick did TBS have that Bartman footage cued up? They're nothing if not predictable. (To the heartbreaking fifth....) Cubnut: That Hernandez is one deliberate chess player. (Bases loaded for DeRosa) Cubnut: Surprised they're staying with Hernandez here? Rob G: A little, but Melvin is confident in our ability to choke this away. Cubnut: Anything but a double-play, anything but a double-play... (DeRosa grounds into the double play) Rob G: As I was saying... Rob G: We haven't loaded the bases with 0 outs yet and not scored, so there's still one more rung on the ladder for us to go down. So that power surge in September was just a cruel joke apparently, huh? Cubnut: Cubs have now had two men on base in every inning. Currently oh-for-8 with RISP. (After Byrnes' HR) Cubnut: That should just about do it. Rob G: We're still in it, Livan can't find the strike zone. (JJ grounds out on the first pitch) Um. Nevermind. Cubnut: Rob, I can't stand to watch this any more. Seriously. I just volunteered to drive out to pick up my son at a tennis tournament. The older I get, the more this hurts. Go Rockies! (Lee grounds into a double play in the 7th...) Christian: I thought I had made peace with the season being over after the third double play, but then came the fourth double play... And the post mortem... Cubnut: Trying to be as dispassionate about this as possible, I have to say that winning 19 more games than last season and going from last to first in the Central and replacing Johnnie B. Baker with a real Major League Manager (who obviously made some mistakes in the post-season) were all great advances for this organization. What's more, we will go into '08 with a lot of guys on the roster who I will be glad to see back--some vets, some young guys--which has been the case in my Cub-fan life not very often. Those are some of the positives I will take away from this season. However... We choked. And even with some of the desirable players I just referred to coming back next year, we're far from a sure bet to return to the playoffs. If the Brewers take some smart next steps, I could see them leaving us in their dust for the next several years. And with a new ownership group taking possession sometime soon, it's really impossible to know what direction the Cubs organization will take. (For the love of God, let there be SOME direction.) These disappointments get harder to take the older I get. My 11-year-old was in tears tonight as Jeff Salazar caught Soriano's fly ball and I feel like I am largely responsible for his heartache. I, after all, invited the Cub plague into our house. But that's baseball... Cub baseball, and in another couple days, I'll be looking forward to next year. Though I really hope Steve Trachsel has no part in it whatsoever. Rob G: I wish I had something constructive to add, some comforting words to make the bitter pill a little easier to swallow but I can't muster the strength. The team didn't get it done, from player one to player 25, whether they choked or just got beat by a better team does not matter. They lost and they did it ever so gloriously as only Cubs teams seem to do. I need to take a few days off, try not to kill yourselves in the comments.
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*kills self*

Note to self: kill self.

...and if the game didn't do it to you, reading the comments on DeRosa's blog will. Especially the ones from the guy who keeps hating on DeRosa's "foreign teammates." Go Internet!

*kills self again*

On being a Cub fan (or the least talented Beatle):

It don't come easy,
You know it don't come easy.
It don't come easy,
You know it don't come easy.

Gotta pay your dues
If you wanna sing the blues
And you know it don't come easy.
You don't have to shout
Or leap about
You can even play them easy.

Forget about the past
And all your sorrow,
You jump on past
It will soon be your tommorow.

I don't ask for much
I only want it first
And you know it don't come easy.
And this love of mine
Keeps growing all the time
And you know it just ain't easy.

Open up your heart
Let's come together,
Use a little love
And we will make it work out better.

Gotta pay your dues
If you wanna sing the blues
And you know it don't come easy.
You don't have to shout
Or leap about
You can even play them easy.

Please remember this
Is how we make it,
Here within your dreams
If you're big enough to take it.

I don't ask for much
I only want it first
And you know it don't come easy.
And this love of mine
Keeps growing all the time
And you know it don't come easy


The TCR roundtable seemed a bit two-sided.

"The TCR roundtable seemed a bit two-sided"

Yeah, well, most of the things I was thinking (and yelling) during the game would get us in trouble with the Powers That Be here at MVN.

That was tough.

But we have something we haven't had since the end of 2004 season....hope.

jacos. i agree.
our loss was no fluke. no bartman, no curse.
we played shitty baseball and were beaten by a team that played good baseball. we won the central after a disastrous 06 season. next year we can reasonably hope to be an even better team. my biggest concern is how to get soriano to flourish batting fifth.

*kills self*

*reanimates as zombie*

*kills self again*

might be a little too soon.....but anyone who thinks you can hand the CF job to pie as the trib article about "next year" suggested is insane.

cannot trade jones....unless you get another big CF which they won't do with pie still there.

my opinion: sign bobby abreu to play RF. good D, good OBP, some pop. he can platoon with murton and we'll have a strong bench again. maybe murton gets traded for a young SS, bc i'm very skeptical of theriot being an everyday starter again, had a pretty shitty second half (sorry mvn, i mean "poopy")

and yes, i'm in denial about the past week. moving on...... sucks more to be a met fan

No hitting with RISP means no winning games. What is the record for most GIDP in a post-season game??

Ramirez made Dawson's performance on 1/2 a knee in 1989 look positively spectacular.

On March 1, I thought this team was going to win 74-75 wins, and had zero chance of winning 81, much less the division. I'm disappointed with the playoff outcome, but it's closer to 1998 than 1989, 1984, or 2003.

Can't think about next year at all for at least two weeks, other than the obvious farewells to Kendall and Traschel.

After 2006, the best part of the baseball season was waiting on trades and roster moves. It will take a little adjustment to realize this may be a quieter off season and from here the 2008 season seems a long way off.

the worst part about it traditionally would be that my next move would have me stuck listening/watching the Bears...options?

To quote Z: "Thanks God", yes there are options.

In lieu of that, maybe I'll read some books, what a novel concept.

Autumn, here I come...

#11: it�s closer to 1998 than 1989, 1984, or 2003.

Agreed. I kept expecting to see Henry Rodriguez in the on-deck circle and Terry Adams warming up in the pen. The playoff fizzle is similar, though not an exact replica -- in 1998 it was a still-strong Braves franchise that beat us, not an inexperienced, improbably hot D'backs.

Can�t think about next year at all for at least two weeks, other than the obvious farewells to Kendall and Traschel.

Also agreed; one good thing to come of all this is that the Kendall decision becomes very, very easy (as opposed to pretty easy, I guess).

Just wanted to send my regrets that I couldn't be a part of the final game of the season here at TCR. Was busy watching game with mom and step-day, who were in town to visit. Hence, no round-table participation.

Nothing to add to the conversation here. We laid an egg, all the more unfortunate because I think we really did have a fine team, and a team that was easy to cheer for.

Soto has to be starting catcher next year, while looking for yet another bat to add some oomph at CF, RF, SS or 2B......

what to do with pie...what can blanco theriot 'the man' at SS...another reliever, perhaps...

Any way we can pry David Wright away from the Mets?


btw...kinda shocked (kinda not) that cubs nation hasnt caught 'fuku-fever' on kosuke fukudome.

seems every other team's fans are penciling him in for some OF work the next 3-4 years.

The second greatest moment of this season was the departure of Michael ( I'm no catcher) Barrett.

Any 2008 team without him is a definite improvement.

"our loss was no fluke. no bartman, no curse.
we played shitty baseball and were beaten by a team that played good baseball."

heard that...and unfortunately...saw that, too.

My analysis in the tired, trite, been done fashion you might expect:

The good: The same core players that were the reason for our winning the division are the same core players that will be back next year. Hendry's moves over the last year of Lilly, Sori, DeRosa holding Hill, and resigning Z and ARam, all bode well for next year. Soto, Theriot, Fontenot, and Murton all are pluses as they provide varying degrees of usefulness without having to trade away prospects to fill their respective rolls. Soto looks lake a gamer. Sweet Lou looks like a keeper at manager. He took us from worst to first and his lineup card gymnastics seemed to improve over the course of the season.

The bad: The league has now seen Lilly a lot more. Regression to the mean is likely. Z is still unpredictable and immature and number two overall in total pitcher abuse points. Our LSU boys have fallen back to earth. Soto is very likely to settle down as well--how far is anyone's guess. As well as Sweet Lou did, he made questionable choices and his bullpen use still needs work (you think?). The scouting on Marmol may well prove useful next year. Zeus isn't unbeatable as we all now know.

Th ugly: JJ's power numbers are down substantially. He now seems to have as much trouble getting the ball out as he does getting it back in. Power overall needs work--we need a big bat in a big hurry. If Lilly comes back to earth and Z gets injured we've got real problems in our starting pitching. Marquis is signed for 2 more years. $21M for this turd is a lot of wasted dough. The new ownership is a huuuge question mark this off season--we may not have any money to spend. Dempster is the tip of the iceberg in this thin bullpen. Next year, 85 wins will not even allow us to smell October.

My prediction: The key to this team's success next year will be the off season moves. This same team struggles to .500 next year without some crucial flaws being addressed.

its hard to believe anyone buying the team will bury the payroll...especially at this point.

hendry, fwiw, has stated there will be more money next year recently (independent of new ownership, this statement was made).

there's a few things one could take from that...

1- hendry's just assuming that no matter what a few extra million will be needed to even stabilize the team even keeping what's already hear...and it just means a handful of millions to cover the spots will be spent.

2- the prospective new ownership group(s) have said they plan on investing more in the payroll as a part of their "bid" to make the sell more attractive

3- hendry's just talking out his ass even though there's no reason to

...there's also concerns about whether the actual sale and transfer of the team will be accomplished before the season starts.

myself, im interested to know what's to become of pie and marshall.

is pie ready (rather, are the defending division champion cubs ready for pie's growing pangs)?

is marshall as the 3rd lefty starter something the cubs want...or they want a righty and make marshall trade bait?


#1 - Dominent closer!

#2 - RF or 2B. Leaning more to RF

Soto can catch with Blanco backing him up. It'd be nice to have a catcher who can actually throw out a base stealer.

Prior and Marshall can fight for the #5 spot... with Mr Notre Dame as a longshot. Marquis unfortunatly will be back as the #4...

Pie probably isn't ready for CF alone... thus Jones needs to be kept as the starting CFer and backup RF. Murton's fate will be decided by if we get a big time RFer. Maybe he can be included in a trade for a closer.

Theriot sould be fine at SS... unless we get some former SS from the Yanks who can still play SS which won't happen. If so we move him to 2B and E Patterson can be used as trade bait with Murton.

Murton, Patterson and Marshall for Chad Cordero?

Anyway those are my thoughts... VERY disapointed... we will need 90 wins next year to make the playoff's.

Would Marshall and Pie be enough to pry Santana from the Twins?

It's the last year of his contract, I'm sure you all know.

ive been hearing from friends (fans of other teams) that are intrigued by the chance of k.wood being a starter next year.

given how absolutely and shockingly bare the FA pitching market is vs. the need of, it could happen.

also had a friend run by me the chance of m.prior being lured away with a 2yr backloaded/incentive by someone...i'll worry about that when i actually hear about prior being on a mound again.

cubs lead for 1/2 of an inning the entire 3 game series...for instance...

could point out a bunch more stuff, but its all been hashed over in other posts by almost everyone.

wrong thread...

Since other teams may make strong pushes for Wood, if he wants to start again the Cubs may not be able to say no - also the question lingers of whether he gives the team another hometown discount (probably not). And Prior may bolt the first chance he gets - he cares only about the dollar signs, it would appear.

Too early for 2008 talk. Please.

"Yeah, well, most of the things I was thinking (and yelling) during the game would get us in trouble with the Powers That Be here at MVN."

You could've posted them in the comments :)

i say we trade carlos rubi to a drays blog to be named later for $20 and a bag of oranges.

Prior and Marshall can fight for the #5 spot� with Mr Notre Dame as a longshot.

Samardzija doesn't have a chance of starting the year in the rotation. And I believe that they don't expect Prior to be ready by opening day, but I could be wrong on that.

Would Marshall and Pie be enough to pry Santana from the Twins?

Absolutely not.

Murton, Patterson and Marshall for Chad Cordero?

I sure hope Hendry isn't stupid enough to do that deal.

And why are people saying the Cubs need a 2b? DeRosa is more than adequate as a 2b.

i dont honestly know if santana is even tradable pre-season unless a team like the dodgers (who dont really need that high-end of a pitcher) want to give away a grip of their mlb-ready talents they have in excess.

the FA SP market is bone-dry and well...umm...santana, yeah...*THE* top under-30 starter and arguably the top pitcher in the game with consistency.

who's got the balls to pony up the "cost"?

"i say we trade carlos rubi to a drays blog to be named later for $20 and a bag of oranges."

I already post at DRays Bay. And I plant my own oranges.

you're no fun.

btw, evan longoria is legit...

Needs more Parachat!

Btw, the rumored deal is Loney, Kemp and Kershaw for Johan and Perkins or Kemp and Kershaw for Johan.

Kerry Wood will be on the 2008 Cubs, imo.

"Murton, Patterson and Marshall for Chad Cordero?

I sure hope Hendry isn�t stupid enough to do that deal."

And why is that such a bad deal?

That's what it would take to get a dominent closer. I am so sick of Dempster, would you trust him with the closers role next year? I sure wouldn't.

E Patterson is a 2B, we have DeRosa for that and Fonsy.

Mashall is a SP but we have Prior and perhaps the afore mentioned Dempster for that + whoever else is down at AAA.

Murton is a run of the mill RFer with no special atributes. even starting 162 games he's not likely to hit more then 20 HR's or steal 20 bases. We can easily foill that spot on the FA market.

Yes I would do that deal.

As for Pie for Santana... probably but I would want Santana signed to an extention first.

washington would do that deal, could probably get cordero with 2 of the 3 guys mentioned and even then it wouldnt be that stellar of a deal for the cubs.

8m next year, 10m club option...decent, but not exactly a great price for what you get. he's not that automatic and has had health questions.

Dear Cub Fans,

Many thanks for all the letters and pledge commitments you made to me throughout this Summer. I regret to inform you that all your requests for a World Series appearances were inexcusbly misplaced here through a bureaucratic snafu in Hades last week. Morever, I received a better offer from a Mr. Melvin, who had a much simpler request relating to somethging called "BA in RISP" that was easier to fill. The good news for you, however, is that you all will receive your souls forthwith returned to you in good condition. Said souls will be posted for secure download on the Microsoft secure health information database as soon as practicable.



Mephistopheles in cohorts with Microsoft...i knew it.

its explained by this simple numerology fact:

if you take the number of letters in "Mephistopheles" and subtract them from the number of letters in "Microsoft"...then add the number of vowels in both to the total...multiply by Bill Gate's age...add the number of time "whores" or "whoredom" is mentioned in Leviticus in the Bible...then divide by 6.66 and it proves you have too much time on your hands.


Ugh... so much wrong in this.

E Patterson is a 2B, we have DeRosa for that and Fonsy.

E-Pat has been moved to the outfield. And Fonsy is not a 2b.

Mashall is a SP but we have Prior and perhaps the afore mentioned Dempster for that + whoever else is down at AAA.

First of all, we don't know that Prior will be back next year with the Cubs. Second of all, we don't know that Prior will ever be able to be an effective pitcher again.

Murton is a run of the mill RFer with no special atributes

Well... unless you are the Yankees, you need to have "run of the mill" players. Murton will end up being, at worst, a very good role player. You need good role players, in your starting lineup, to win.

As for Pie for Santana� probably but I would want Santana signed to an extention first.

Haha... Minnesota would laugh at Hendry if he proposed a Pie for Santana trade. Santana may be the best pitcher in baseball, and is, at worst, a top 10 pitcher. Pie is a prospect. And at this point, nothing more. There is absolutely no way that the Twins would give the Cubs Santana for Pie.

cubs needs:
1) RF - Fukimoto would be a great fit - left handed stud from japan.
2) a quality #2 / #3 pitcher - (our staff was exposed in a 5 game series, and REALLY would have been exposed in a 7 game series.)
3) continued health of wood or that certain enigma oft injured right handed starter
4) more speed - if pie progresses, he will help. also, the emergence of ePatt will help.
5) converting marmol or wood to closer -

*get rid of jacque - too slow, no pop. trade dempster

good year cubs, bad end.

I just don't see how anyone could trade for Santana without signing him first.OR him telling you that he wants to sign with you.

I Agree with Crunch thats too much for Cordero. Who ever suggested that needs to look up their stats because there almost the same except for the HR rate.
As For the 07 Cubs they met most of our exceptions a 83-87 win team that would compete for the division since it wsnt good. They did this with their best pitcher and 4 best hitters going into the season not having years there capable of (even though Soriano's hot September ended up giving him a line we thought he'd have). Lee and Ramirez should have better years next year and Soto should outproduce the line Barett,Blanco, Kendall, Hill, Bowen, and he put up of 239/.304/.369/673.
This off-season I think Hendry will hit the trade market which is his strong suit. The 5 most likely Cubs to be traded are IMO 1. Dempster, 2. Epat, 3. Marshall, 4.Murton 5.Jones. Hopefully he turns these 5 into upgrades at SS and RF. Maybe Dempster, Murton, and Jones for Renteria. It fills our need for a SS and it fills the ATL's need for a LF, CF, and a solid innings eating starter. For RF maybe a Marshall and Epat for Hermida deal. Epat finally gives them a CF and Marshall gives them a solid LHP if they deal Willis and Olsen which seems likely and I assume could get a RF to replace Hermida. The team would look like this ten:

LF Soriano
SS Renteria
1b Dlee
3b Aram
RF Hermida
C Soto
2b Derosa
CF Pie



Greg Norton- A FA who I think Hendry/Lou would target due to being a switch hitter and ablity to play all the corners give the versility LOu craves in bench guys.

"2) a quality #2 / #3 pitcher - (our staff was exposed in a 5 game series, and REALLY would have been exposed in a 7 game series.)"

Lilly had 1 horrendous start all season and unfortunetly it was in the playoffs. I'll agree that I would feel better with Hill as a 4. There are no good choices in FA for a 3rd starter and our trade chips need to be used on hitters. Our best bet is to tender Prior and hope he can be a 3 or maybe sign Freddy Garcia or Batolo Colon to an incentives type deal.

Lilly was one of the better #2 pitchers in the league.

And Hill was one of the better #3 pitchers in the league.

The pitching was/is not the problem for the Cubs. The inconsistent offense was.

Anyone surpirsed by the Cubs play in this series must not have seen the Marlins series 10 days ago.

Streaky teams can be dangerous in the playoffs -- they can also be duds. Soriano's power seemed to be the big X Factor this year -- when it was there, the Cubs won, when it wasn't, they lost.

The biggest bummer is that, after 6 months of daily devotion, it's-- poof --all over.

Thanks to TCR for making a wild year even more enjoyable!

dave I'll take you one further, next year Rich Hill will be even better and prolly have some of the best #2 numbers in the leage.

With the Yankees on the hook for a $16 million option for Pettite and with A-Rod looking to break the $30 million mark, I think there is a real possibility they decline their option on Abreu this offseason.

Abreu would be the PERFECT fit for the #2 hole in our lineup and our RF position.

I'd start the season with Pie in CF, but with Jones around in case he falls on his face and would through a decent package to Baltimore for Tejada (low risk and could probably bat 5th or 6th) including some of Theriot, Eric Patterson, Matt Murton, and any of our other mid tier pitching prospects.

chi fan - i agree. let's sign prior to an incentive based contract - hopefully he takes it - san diego will likely create a similar offer.
otherwise, we may need to bank on the other gimp - guzman.

[...] Rob G. wrote a fantastic post today on “TCR Game 3 Roundtable”Here’s ONLY a quick extractA chance to relive the horror� �����- (After Chris Young�s first pitch homer and Drew�s sun-aided double) Rob G: Should Jason Marquis have been warming up before the first pitch? Cubnut: Prediction: Cliff Floyd won�t be the only guy who … [...]

My opinion of the greatest positive to look forward to in 2008: NO BRUCE FROEMMING

More than any reason I want the Cubs to be World Champions in 2008 so I NEVER, NEVER have to hear the combined dumb--- media talk about billy goats, curses, Bartman, black cats and whatever other *&$#!% they need to fill up their newsprint and air time. Notice that no one ever mentions the curse of the bambino anymore in the same sentence as the Red Sox. God, I wish that were the Cubs after next year.

I look forward to everyone's posts on the 2008 season off-season moves. I don't think we have as far to go (i.e. # of moves) that we did between this time last year and the 2007 season.

"so I NEVER, NEVER have to hear the combined dumb� media talk about billy goats, curses, Bartman, black cats and whatever other *&$#!% they need to fill up their newsprint and air time"

hell yeah.

it more played out than FrankTV. if you must...mention it once, move on...don't crutch on the stuff so you dont have to think hard about doing your job...

No Abreu, please. He's too streaky, and his defense is very overrated. He seems to have a fear of walls; I can't imagine how he'd react if they were brick.

There's a reason Philly wanted him gone, and it's not money. It's the same reason the Yanks won't resign him.

I'd rather have Murton.

billy goats, curses, Bartman, black cats

As I mentioned in Parachat: the easiest way to get rid of all of these curses is to blow up Ronny Woo Woo like the Bartman ball in 2003. It may not help us win, but at least the media won't be talking about anything but flaming Woo Woo for a while.

Since no one in the sports media are going to own up to their own ineptitudes, I'll recap the retarded predictions from before the season started. I'll start with Yahoo! Sports:

The ever-brilliant Jeff Pasan predicted the final standings:

1. St. Louis Cardinals 85-77
2. Milwaukee Brewers 84-78
3. Chicago Cubs 81-81
4. Houston Astros 74-88
5. Cincinnati Reds 72-90
6. Pittsburgh Pirates 70-92


You lose, asshole.

Tim Brown:

1. Houston Astros 84-78
2. St. Louis Cardinals 81-81
3. Milwaukee Brewers 81-81
4. Chicago Cubs 79-83
5. Cincinnati Reds 75-87
6. Pittsburgh Pirates 71-91


The Astros? Are you f***ing serious? The aforementioned prediction should be enough to put a stamp of "TOTAL B.S." on any piece of crap he writes from this point forward.

But I'm sure the sports media (specifically the tools that wrote the articles) will never mention these predictions ever again.

For RF, assuming we can't get Fukudome, anyone willing to take a flyer on Juan Rivera? According to Baseball Reference, he's now a free agent.

It seems like the talk of the superstitious/moronic legends is both incessant and inevitable. I was disgusted to note that TBS appeared to have the Bartman stuff cued up and ready to go. I also noted that the headline about the last game on Yahoo! referred to a "99-year curse." Now they're not even getting the folklore right!

I agree that the best way to eliminate this stuff is for the Cubs to win the WS. I like to fantasize, though, that ending various other traditions would help to turn the media narrative from "same old cursed Cubbies!" to "things are different around Wrigley." For example:

--no more use of the term "Cubbies." By anybody.
--no more guest conductors
--no more "TMOTTBG" at all; play something else
--no more "Y.M.C.A.," while you're at it
--no more veneration of bleacher bums
--any questions to any Cubs employee about Bartman, goats, et al. answered with "no comment"
--no more Ron Santo wailing in agony every single time something bad or unlucky happens

And so forth. This would require a cooperative effort by the club and the fans, which I know will never happen. I also know that even if it did all happen, the Cubs would be no closer to a WS title. But like George Altman in #54 above, I think about it because I long so deeply for the end of the [censored].

Ryno: ...Another option is Geoff Jenkins...

dave: Matt Murton will out-produce Geoff Jenkins next year.

Why would the Cubs want an aging RF who has only had one season with an OPS over .800 in the last 4 years?

Matt Murton isn't a lefty, as I said the club needed, IMO. Also, Murton isn't a RFer. Also, I don't like him, so there you go (I mean as a player, obviously, he could be a real great guy or whatever). And you say "aging", I say "veteran". Tom?to, Tom?to.

But, yes, I'll take you up on the Murton outproducing Jenkins next year. That *is* if some club is nice enough to let Murton play a full year on their club. Maybe the Orioles? White Sox? :-)~


At least we get a little good news in Chicago this weekend...

Very disappointing to be at the game Saturday. I wasn't around the last few days and it's all been said but it's extremely annoying how easily this team seemed to fold.

Management and players clearly need to step up another level next year.

Fans should also step up another level, too; anyone think the bleachers can pull this off?

anyone think the bleachers can pull this off?


took a quick peak at the potential free agents and I really don't think the Cubs will get involved with anyone...BUT if they were:

Besides the obvious Arod to shortstop unless they want to sign him for third and then trade Aramis to the Angels or Dodgers for Weaver or Billingsley, which isn't going to happen, the only name of any interest to me is:

Curt Schilling

yeah he won't make 30 starts but we got the minor league depth in Hart, Marshall (both should have options), Holliman and Veal to cover that.

Everyone else is a waste of time in my opinion.

Yeah I know he's a blowhard but he gets it done on the mound.

and the Aramis to the LA teams thing I mentioned would include a few other players for us, but of course Aramis has an NTC so it's not happening.

if there's even a sniff that Johan Santana is on the market, you get on the phone and offer up Pie, Hill and whatever other prize of the system they're interested in.

Yanks would give up Hughes in second I'm sure, Mets would give up Humber and Pelfrey and who knows what the Angels or Dodgers would offer (and both have plenty). So don't think we'll get away with some weak-ass Marshall/Cedeno package or something. It's going to take 3-4 of your top young players and at least 2 will have to be major league ready now.

"Curt Schilling"

Love it and I think that guy still has some tread on him. I would have loved to see him get a start for us this post season. Might have been a different series. Maybe.

Also the Santana thing? How could we possibly trade for him if he could just walk?

Can't agree that Hill should be traded even up for Santanna, so I would definetly disagree that he should go with him for two other players.

Santanna is going to cost between $20 and $25 million from 2009 to 2014. If the Cubs were to give up Pie, Hill and Gallagher or Holdzkom, I am sure the Twin GM (did they just fire one?) would at least send some KY Jelly and Preparation H back.

The Twins don't need Theriot at short, because they have his identicle twin, Bartlett. They need a third basemen, because theirs hit like Neifi and Blanco's love child. They need a center fielder, assuming they don't resign Hunter. I cant figure out who their 2nd basemen was, post Castillo, Casilla (.515 OPS? )so maybe they want one fo them too. They would need a starter to replace Santana and maybe one more to replace Boof. They're pretty much set at 1B,RF,LF and C (or DH for Mauer).

Maybe Fontenot

I would say you build the offer around Marshall and Pie, if the Twins are high on Pie and then squabble about the third player. Have we got a 3rd base prospect? It could be that they would want Soto so they could move Mauer to DH and catcher backup.

I wouldn't mind one year of Abreu to bat 2nd. Not sure I am sold on Fukudome. Based on the stats he is not Matsui. I wouldn't mind Murton getting a full time shot at right (or Left if Soriano moves over). Is there a lefthanded hitting backup catcher available? I think Blanco is finito. Wardasaurus I would take back, he can get some spot starts in right. Floyd, go DH with the Twins. Pagan or Fuld as the 4th or 5th outfielder, depending on what happens with Jones and Pie. Maybe give Patterson the same opportunity Pie had last spring to win the CF and Leadoff jobs.

(trying different HTML tag to make Firefox people happy)

Similar to the Jennings and Pierre deals, I guess. But with Pierre, Hendry looked at as a tryout. I don't think anyone would bring Santana in on a similar basis. You would find out the perameters he's looking at before you trade for him, but not necessarily have a deal in place.

Ok, that didn't work, back to

That was for Chad's question though.

Should have throw Cedeno on that list, he's probably higher on the Twins' want list than he is on the typical Cubs fan's.

Ok neal, I see that but in the Pierre deal, we really didn't give up too much. IIRC it was two guys that we had to move to get off the roster. While they may not be bad players, they weren't top top prospects, they way Hill and Pie are.

Neal... what do you use for italics?

I use either "i" or "em", and then close the tag with "/i" or "/em".

Have we got a 3rd base prospect?

Yea... Scott Moore. Oh wait... the Cubs have Steve Trachsel instead.

The mythologizing begins: "[n]ow Piniella will have to live with a moment [pulling Zambrano] that will go down in Chicago sports lore with Scottie Pippen's headache, Jerry Dybzinski's baserunning gaffe, the ball through Leon Durham's legs and other infamous postseason debacles."

Oh, brother.

We need guys who get on take pitches, draw walks, and get on base...or A-Rod

Cubs may not be sold until next year- Spring the earliest-

One last shopping spree, please!

Sorry, I forgot to attribute my quote in #75, above. It was by Paul Sullivan in today's Tribune.

None of us knows what's really going on, so I can hope, can't I?

I hope Hendry has been ordered to stand down, not to do anything.

I hope the team changes hands forthwith, and the new owners do a top-to-bottom housecleaning.

I hope the Yankees win the World Series so that Girardi stays in the TV booth, available when the dust settles around the Cubs.

The Cubs have never had a youth movement. In '69 they played the same stodgy, station-to-station chokeball that they played in '07.

Well, maybe they had a very brief half-hearted youth movement under Zimmer but, come on, Jerome Walton and Dwight Smith? With some of Wilkens' draftees, they could do much better.

Here is a very difficult fact for a typical Cub fan to get his head around: Andruw Jones just turned thirty-one, and so the Braves are letting him go.

If he was a Cub, they would keep him till he was forty-one, then put him in the radio booth where he could sing Take Me Out to the Ballgame twenty times a season.

In fact, Hendry might be working on that right now.

The local media is down on Lou, I believe because he lashed out at them a few times.

Does Lou have any 5 year old kids to sit on his lap and mumble about not getting any breaks?

Andruw Jones just turned thirty-one, and so the Braves are letting him go.

No... the Braves are letting Andruw Jones go because his defense and offense have both dropped dramatically, and they cannot afford the 15+ million a year for a player who isn't a shell of what he was just a year or two ago.

Here is a very difficult fact for a typical Cub fan to get his head around: Andruw Jones just turned thirty-one, and so the Braves are letting him go.

Oh... and you do know that teams look at more things than age, right?

Young ? Good

Odd... that should be a "not equals" sign.

And what is a "not equals" sign? I hate Mondays...

"not equals" = "does not equal"

The silicon chip inside Dave's head got switched to overload...

The Cubs are not that far away. They need a real closer and one more dependable bat in he lineup from:
shortstop == not likely
center field == few choices available
right field == seems to be the best opportunity, but there is also an abundance of over the hill, mediorce right fielders.

A vote here for DeRosa as MVP Cub.

1) How many teams have improved by 19 games (or more) from one season to the next and then improved again in Year 3? (I'm asking. I don't know. Isn't regression to the mean involved?)

2) I'm sick of the "Well, you can't blame the curse and/or Bartman for this one ..." crowd. What half-intelligent observer ever blamed the curse for anything to begin with? I'm not singling anybody out on TCR, rather the general media. I always thought the "curse" was a funny story that my aunt told me when I was 7 and going to Cubs games for the first time, but refers to the Cubs as "cursed franchise" like it's been somehow scientifically proven. Good grief.

3) When it comes to the "curse," Cubs fans get it in all different directions. Either we're so stupid we think the "curse" is responsible for losing instead of general suckitude, or we're so stupid that we keep rooting for a team that's going to lose "because they're the Cubs." Again, public perception.

Isn’t regression to the mean involved?

Not really... regression to the mean would only apply if you have the same team. And this year's team was nowhere near the team the Cubs had in 2006. This team essentially added: Soriano, DLee, Lilly, Marquis, Ward, Floyd, Marmol, and Hill, Marshall, and Theriot to a lesser extent.

Better, worse or the same in 2008?
LF – Soriano. About the same. Lower average but better power numbers. (Better if he can stay healthy the whole way, but I doubt it.)
CF – Jones. About the same, probably worse. He definitely will be much worse against LHPs.
RF – Murton better, Floyd worse, but who knows who is going to play here?
3B – Ramirez. Same. Established, consistent level of production.
SS –Theriot. Same to worse. Does anybody think Theriot underachieved?
2B – DeRosa. Worse. I'm shocked, but he had a better year in 2007 than 2006 playing the The Bandbox at Arlington. Still serviceable, but worse.
1B – Lee. Slightly better. He'll hit over 30 HRs and maintain the batting average.
C – Soto. Worse, but he'll be fine.
SP – Zambrano slightly better, Lilly worse, Hill the same, Marquis worse, Marshall worse.
RP – Dempster the same, Howry the same, Marmol worse, Eyre better, Wuertz worse, Wood worse, Hart don't know.
Bench – Ward worse, Blanco worse, Cedeno better, Fontenot worse

Hmm... better or worse - I went by position instead of actual player. And I assumed the same players:

LF - better (Soriano will hit for better power and have better speed in his 2nd year with the Cubs)
CF - same (Jones is Jones, though if Pie is playing it could be worse, or it could be better - who knows?!?!)
RF - better (You can't really get much worse, but if Murton starts every day it will be better)
3b - better, or at worst the same (ARam slightly underperformed)
SS - same (unless someone is brought in)
2b - same (DeRosa is a solid baseball player who will continue to be solid)
1b - better (Lee underperformed, and looked like he started to regain his power in the second half.)
C - better (Soto will be better, possibly significantly so, than the combined crap behind the plate this year)
SP - better (z better, lilly same, hill better, marquis worse, marshall better)
RP - same (this pen is pretty good, and will continue to be pretty good, and there are several young arms that can step in if needed)
bench - same

Better if he can stay healthy the whole way, but I doubt it.

Why do you doubt this? Soriano has never had injury problems before this year.

Rotoworld blurb says Floyd will probably only play next year if he can get a full-time starter's sayonara.

This team is dead to me. Id rather watch the Phillies. At least I can throw batteries there.

Does anyone know anything about this?

For all of those who believed the Tribune Co. was all about preserving the history of the Cubs, the Sun-Times debunked that myth Sunday with a shocker, as former commissioner Peter Ueberroth revealed he invoked his ''best interests of baseball'' clause to block the newspaper giant from demolishing Wrigley Field.,...

"SP - better (z better, lilly same, hill better, marquis worse, marshall better)"

I'm not as optimistic about Sean Marshall but I think that Rich Hill will be way better. I really think that he steps up and will get Cy Young votes.


I saw that Nate, I remember there being rumblings about moving the team to Addison(north west suburb)

Run and hide....Joe Buck late night talk show in the works

Look for just about every team to try to get Santana or Willis. As usual, I imagine the Yankees will get one or both of them. The Curt Schilling idea would have been intriguing a year ago. His velocity is down, his weight is up and he's got maybe a year, 2-3 tops left in his tank. He's a great big game guy, but his talents are seriously diminishing
Because of the botched shoulder surgery, I cannot see Kerry Wood ever being a starter again or at least a starter who can last more than five innings.
I suspect we're going to lose Marshall, Murton and possibly Koyie Hill in some trades. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Bud Selig drag out the sale of the club. I don't trust him nor Riensdorf (spelling?).
What irritates me the most is the comment I had a Reds fan tell me at the last game of the regular season: "That's great you got in, you're going to get swept anyway." It struck me then, that yes, that could happen. AND IT DID . GODDAMMIT!

I cannot see Kerry Wood ever being a starter again or at least a starter who can last more than five innings.

Earlier today (I can't recall where) I read that Wood was quoted saying he will never be a starter again.

can't say I watched enough of Schilling to see how far he's fallen, his numbers suggest he still has it though, at least for what I think the Cubs need. I wasn't paying attention the the gun yesterday but he still can locate his pitches and his splitter still was nasty.

He's 41, so I'm not sure what sort of deal he's looking for but he did say he wanted to keep pitching. If it's in the 2 yr range with a 3rd yr option, maybe $10 mil base salary and incentives, I think he's a good fit. Kind of takes the heat off Z to be the leader of the staff which really doesn't seem like a role that suits him and one Schilling seems to embrace.

Sort of a pipe dream but he seems like the only guy worth spending money on that's out there.

Well I'm on board with bringing Kerry back to the bullpen, maybe shop Dempster around and then Wood, Marmol and Howry can figure out which innings they should pitch in spring training.

Joe Buck Show=Chevy Chase Show

Dempster might be odd man out with Hart also coming along.

I can't find it, but some publicity hound emailed me earlier today about some article he wrote on AOL Fanhouse that Dempster should be suspended or disciplined for that Deadspin story the other day.

I can't access AOL Fanhouse right now, but if someone cares to post the link, it sounded beyond ridiculous.

I guess Armchair GM...thanks Dave.

"jacos — October 8, 2007 @ 12:10 pm

Joe Buck Show=Chevy Chase Show"

You beat me to the punch! But let me take it one further...

Joe Buck Show

We sucked. This playoff series reminded me of the three games that I attended in Miami. I do have a question. Before the season started I heard a lot of griping about hiring Lou, who I had been rooting for from the day that I heard he was actually interested in the job. Any comments on his performance?

I agree with you Rob, that I would shop Dempster as well as Murton, Marshall, Cedeno, and Pie to see if they could IMPROVE the OF situation and/or bullpen depth. Unless Pie learns how to hit inside pitches between now and opening day, I would like to see Lou try Murton-LF, Jones-CF, and Soriano-RF to start the year. Then keep Pie or Patterson for a LH OF option. Also, not opposed to Hart and Marshall competing for the 5th starter.

Personally, I don't think there is a chance in hell Soriano gets moved out of LF.

Re: signing Schilling--

A big lack on this Cubs team, IMHO, was a strong leader. I don't think there was anyone taking charge in the clubhouse.

Schilling would most likely do that.

wrigley is a recognized landmark...they cant replace a doorknob without paperwork and permission, much less knock the place down.

fwiw...back in 00-02 the trib opposed landmark status for wrigley...cuz well, who wants to wait for approval to paint something (which they actually do year-round, yearly) or replace a doorknob?

around this time there was the 'threats' of moving and far back the comment in the paper is referring or the seriousness of the comment i'd like a little more context on.

'Don't harrass the customers.'

She looks really upset. Maybe Dempster should also pay for the years of therapy she is going to need. What a tool. Was that article a joke that I just don't get?

I hope the guy who gave the picture to Deadspin sues that site for using it without his permission.

[...] Baseball - though not an exact replica in 1998 it was a still-strong Braves franchise that its hard to believe anyone buying the team will bury the payroll especially at Maybe give Patterson the same opportunity Pie had last spring to win the CF and More [...]

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