Game 146 Thread / Cubs @ Cardinals (3 of 3)

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SP Rich Harden SP Todd Wellemeyer
(NL) 4-1, 1.50, 75 K, 18 BB, 54 IP
12-6, 3.74, 116 K, 51 BB, 168.1 IP
LF Alfonso Soriano SS *Skip Schumaker
SS Ryan Theriot LF #Aaron Miles
1B Derrek Lee 1B Albert Pujols
3B Aramis Ramirez RF Ryan Ludwick
RF Mark DeRosa 3B #Felipe Lopez
2B *Mike Fontenot 2B *Adam Kennedy
C Geovany Soto C Jason LaRue
CF Reed Johnson P Todd Wellemeyer
P *Rich Harden SS #Cesar Izturis


The Cubs last game for at least two days as they'll head home after the game and wait out Hurricane Ike. Rich Harden returns after skipping a start, now ready to throw 110 mph and strike out the 27 batters on 81 pitches...anything less would be disappointing.

Brewers and Phillies start a four game set, so there's a good chance one of the Cubs magic numbers will go down today although the playoff magic number is now muddled by the Cardinals and Astros who are tied with the Phillies in the lost column. The best thing is to just win tonight - let's say 15-0 - and then let the other teams duke it out while the Cubs watch the carnage over the weekend.


Fontenot the lone lefty in the lineup? Rich Harden does not count. Guess Hoffpauir will have to wait for Lee to hit under .270 in order to get some playing time. To be fair, the Hoff doesn't appear to be much of an outfielder.

I'm torn on Pie not getting another start tonight, but I understand why one good game doesn't buy him much playing time after an atrocious start in the majors and a fairly mediocre season in AAA.

Lee is better than Hoffpauir, that is why Hoff is not getting playing time at 1B.

I didn't intend to say that Hoffpauir is better than Lee. I intended to note that even in a lineup that lacks lefty bats against a righty pitcher, Hoffpauir is not playing RF because he isn't an acceptable defender. Therefore I concluded that Hoffpauir is only an option to play at first and will (rightfully) have to wait until Lee becomes an absolutely terrible hitter in order to see any playing time. It is probably justified. I just thought, about a week ago when Hoff got some starts in RF, that the Hoff was quickly becoming one of Piniella's top picks. I did not intend this as a criticism of Lee, although I now see why it would be taken that way.

Damn I am a poor blogger.

All good...

Yeah if Hoff could handle RF I think he would get more AB's.

Wasn't there a stat put up during last night's game saying Lee was hitting .400 during his mini hitting streak? No power, for sure. Lots of grounders too. But his average isn't in free fall.

Misleading stat.

Lee is hitting .282 (11 for 39) in September.

Take away a 4 for 6 game against Cincy in which the Cubs scored 14 runs--more than they needed or should have needed--he's hitting .212 (7 for 33).

He just went 2 for 15 in St. Louis, a pretty big series.

Lee has three XBH's this month, all doubles, two of them in that 14-run game. He bats in the 3 hole, same as Pujols.

cherry picker!

so d. ward got a few starts in right field
as did hoffpauer
so who is the better defensive rightfielder

Ward reads the routes better. Maybe. Actually, who can tell? His range is about two steps in any direction.

I don't think there is a position on the field Ward can play better than Hoff. The man does not run well.

hopefully that is why hoffpauer takes
his place next year

Lidge mowing em down, one out to go

DLee keeps hitting ground balls with runners on 3rd, and Hoff will take his place.

Drive the damn ball, Derrek.

Final, Phils 6 Brewers 3


HR's- Ryan, Hardy, Fielder


The Dismal Stats...

Here is our everyday Cubs, and their clutch stats, two out, RISP - to Date:

SORI - .193
DLEE - .222
ARAM - .278
SOTO - .140
DeRosa - .268
TheRiot - .218

The above would indicate that unless the Cubs have a sizable lead going into the later innings, OR they don't jump on pitching early in an inning, we are toast. As I have said earlier, the team will get into the playoffs, and that's it.

The inability to tack on runs against a bad Cardinals bullpen is very troubling. I would at least like to see this team win one playoff series...I don't think any of the other teams are that much better than them.

Actually the above numbers would mean little.

It has been shown over and over again that numbers in situations such as those above are largely due to luck.

I totally disagree. If the Cubs have a healthy Harden and Zambrano they'll do great with the sticks they have.

They still led the league in many hitting categories.

of course this is all hoping that Houston doesn't win the division with Philly as the wildcard!!

for the more reasonable Cubs fans...

2008 sorted by BA with at least 50 Ab's

Ramirez is 22nd in BA, 30th in OPS

2007 sorted by BA with at least 50 Ab's

your league leader? JACQUE JONES!!!

Mark DeRosa (who I'm pretty sure Eman derided for his lack of clutch ability) hit .328 wit a 918 OPS.

I don't agree with your assessment. That is just one of many clutch scenarios.

are we headed for K. Wood with a 1 run lead??

i have seen this before

after watching Marmol in the bottom of the 8th...

Does Pujols hit the ball hard every single at-bat?

Holy mackerel, what a hitter.

Nifty OF defense in the 8th!

here's a vote of confidence: I think Kerry does better with small leads than big ones. Go WOOD!

Has Derrek Lee just gotten old?

exhale ...

holy Mitch Webster batman

It don't come easy,
You know it don't come easy.
It don't come easy,
You know it don't come easy.

Got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues,
And you know it don't come easy.
You don't have to shout or leap about,
You can't even play the Cardinals easy.

HUGE win...definitely not pretty but they got the win...we will lead the division by no less than 4.5 games when we play again on Sunday.

two days off with a 5 1/2 game lead...go phillies.

I know the sky is falling
(nothing is easy)
I know that I can't catch it
(nothing is easy)
I know the weight is too great
(nothing is easy)
I know that I can't hold it
My fool heart

--Lungfish, "Nothing is Easy"

I was told that you gotta pay your dues if you wanna sing the blue cause you know it don't come easy.



I need to read all posts before posting!

F me!

Good win though.

Cubs win!

I feel like I haven't seen a win on TV in a long time... soon I hope.

Think they would have survived the 8th and 9th innings in 1969?

How in the world did the Cardinals not score? They were teeing off on Marmol -- great plays by Fonzie and Kosuke saved the day.

Better lucky than good --

- If the ump doesn't blow the call at 3rd base in the 9th, Cards would have had 1st and 3rd and no outs. Terrible call.

- Cubs score one earned run in each of the last 2 games, and win 'em both. Getting closer, though -- Soto missed an RBI double by an inch, and Lee missed a HR by a foot.

Hopefully, the off days will cool down the 'Stros. Bad luck for the Cubs, though -- looked like the Astro rotation would have been a mess this weekend. Hope we don't get Oswalt and Wandy in the makeup games -- that would suck.

I don't think the ump blew the call. He was safe on the tag but overslid the bag and was called out since ramirez kept the glove on him.

It definetly wasn't a terrible call, they showed it three times on the Cardinals broadcast and even the Cards announcers were't complaining. The glove may have been brushing his shirt as the hand got back to the base. It would have been moot if AramRam had kept the glove on him or tagged his hand instead of his shoulder.

Those two innings were undoubtedly a lot easier to watch knowing the outcome. Pujols has a 3/4 HR versus K ratio against Wood in his career. He's sort of good.

Dunno -- it looked pretty clear to me that the hand was back in before A-Ram re-tagged him. As Len and/or Bob put it: "In the opinion of the umpire, he was out...."

Nice to see soem idiotic over-sliding hurt someone other than the Cubs. Ronnie Cedeno was nodding his approval.

If the Cubs go 9-7 from here, the Brewers will have to go 15-0 to win the division. But let's not get too comfortable because they still control their own destiny -- we have 6 games left with them! Still, for the first time all year I feel this odd comfortable feeling.

Are you guys hearing the same junk I am lately about how "the Cubs gotta win the World Series or this year is a waste" or on the flip side, "they are gonna win it for sure", or other such nonsense? Do people not understand that they will probably NOT win it this year? Each major league team -- no matter how good -- will probably not win it.

Take just the Angels, Cubs, Mets and Red Sox for example. If they played a 4 team playoff tournament 100 times, I'd say each would win in the range of at least 15 and at most 35 times. Expand the tournament to 8 teams and the win totals get diluted even further. If you play the tournament just once, someone has to win, but each team probably won't.

Look at it another way. Assume (favorably) that the Cubs have a 75% chance of beating LA in the first round, and a 66% chance of winning the NLCS, and then a fair 50% shot of winning the WS against the Angels or whomever. The odds of winning all 3 under those generous assumptions -- i.e. winning the World Series -- is only 25% (3/4 x 2/3 x 1/2)!

I mention this not to rain on any ticker tape parades, but to keep things in perspective. The Cubs have a relatively great chance of winning the whole thing -- as good as anybody. But even that chance is maybe 1 in 4 under the most generous of assumptions. The way championships are won is to build a team to get into the playoff mix for several years in a row, and hope that your ping pong ball gets picked at least once. That's what the Cubs have failed to do historically, but they finally seem to be positioned to enjoy one of those 3-5 year windows where anything can happen.

I'm going to be sorely disappointed if they don't win the NL pennant. WS would be gravy. Very tasty gravy.

I hate to disappoint the chicken littles, but the Cubs are officially on a winning streak.

Just read that the Mets had a 99.80% chance of winning the division last year at this point, 17 games to go with a seven run lead. Now, that was Epic Fail. Here's hoping lightning strikes twice.

Hey Sabreheads:

Jason LaRue: Strike swinging, Ball, Ball, LaRue singled to center
Braden Looper hit for Kyle McClellan.
Braden Looper: Looper sacrificed to pitcher, LaRue to second.
Cesar Izturis: Izturis flied out to left.
Skip Schumaker: Schumaker flied out to right.

This is a perfect example of why bunting just for because the book says so is stupid.

I personally would have pinch hit with a guy who could put it over the wall before I sent up a pitcher to bunt.

From the Yahoo game notes:
Lopez was not impressed with Cubs lefty Ted Lilly, who worked eight innings Wednesday. “I don’t know about anybody else, but to me he’s not that good,” Lopez said. “I’m not going to give him that much credit.”;_ylt=AlwqQ3I4Mrm...

Felipe Lopez won that game for the Cubs, he's pretty sweet with the leather at 3b, Ryan Braun wasn't impressed. Didn't he get DFA'd by the worst team in the NL(Wash)? Troy Glaus had his annual breakdown at the right time this year, thank you sir for being made of the same material as the former #22 of the Chicago National League ball club.

Derrek Lee has become Matt Murton.

He will use these off days to die his hair orange.

If the weather warnings are accurate, the idea of playing anything in Houston even on Monday seems stupid. If Galveston is horribly damaged by what is predicted to be a 20 foot storm surge, who the hell is going to want to go to a game up the road two days later? People will die in this thing.

It would be nice if the game had a commissioner who could make a decision in the best interests of the game and not in the interests of a single owner.

I'm from Houston and have to say I disagree here. If life is shitty, 3 hours of baseball on the tube or the radio will sure be better than staring out the window waiting for the water to recede from your front lawn.

And that's exactly why you move the games to Atlanta or wherever. TV and radio will be there, the teams will be out of harm's way and the games will go on as scheduled.

except most people won't be getting TV or radio signals that's staying back. Also, some of the Houston players have families and homes in the area, they certainly prefer to be with them right now.


Was that for Neal or for me? I was responding to Neal's comment that locals want to be able to listen to the games on the (battery powered) radio, and playing out of town would allow that, unless you know something about radio signals that I don't?

Seems unlikely they will get any games in Sunday -- the Texans have moved their game to Monday night, and Houston is likely to be an absolute mess.

So -- let's assume they schedule a make-up game for Sept. 29th -- if the game means something to the Astros (and thus the Brewers/Phillies/Cards), while the Cubs are in playoff prep mode -- who does Lou put on the flight to Houston? Are Lance Dickson and Ty Griffin still available?

Good thinking, Bud.

bud selig sucks i totally agree with t-bone lets put one owner
ahead of the game,does houston owner actually think alot
of people will come to a sundaay monday game,i think the residents
of houston will be occupied elsewhere.

at least roger goddell made a announcement before selig
concerning a game which was scheduled on sunday.

billybucks is correct to the cubs have clinched do you
really think lou will play to win on sep. 29.

what will probally happen is on saturday afternoon
selig will tell teams pack up and go to atlanta
to play/ smart bud what happens if astros cant
get out of houston.

Submitted by Charlie on Thu, 09/11/2008 - 7:14pm.

Ward reads the routes better. Maybe. Actually, who can tell? His range is about two steps in any direction. I don't think there is a position on the field Ward can play better than Hoff. The man does not run well.


CHARLIE: Even given his lack of mobility, I would say Daryle Ward is still a better corner OF than Micah Hoffpauir.

1st base is a different matter, however. In Baseball America's "best tools" issue last month (where minor leaguers are rated by scouts and rival league managers), Hoffpauir was rated the #1 defensive 1st baseman in the PCL, and based on what I've seen of him over the years, I would agree that he is a good defensive 1st baseman. I have seen him make some really nice plays at 1B.

I will take your word for it on his D at first, since I haven't seen him play much. I have heard differing reports on his defense, but I've heard at least as much good as bad.

But I've seen Daryle Ward play more than enough outfield to come to the conclusion that Jason Marquis could outdefend him in RF, and I don't see how Hoffpauir could be worse given that he can run at least a little. Can he catch a fly ball that if he is in position? Can he field a grounder if he is in position? Can he throw to the cut off man? Then he is at least as good as Ward given Ward's extremely limited range.

Hate to disagree with the Everything Guru of TCR (and I really, really mean that), but on this one I will.

But I do have to ask, since you have seen him play some outfield, just how bad is Hoffpauir?

Rich Harden threw a nice game last night, and he got outs, but if there is nothing wrong with his arm, why was his heater consistently running at 87-89 MPH (touching 90 once and 91 once), when a month ago he was throwing his fastball consistently at 93-95 and occasionally touching 96? He had the same loss of velocity in his previous start (8/29) prior to getting shut down for 12 days.

So do the Cubs shut him down again and hope he can get his velocity back with rest, or do they just live with a Rich Harden who throws a high 80's fly ball fastball and low 80's change combo for the rest of the season?

I certainly wouldn't want to see him start a post-season playoff game in Wrigley Field with the wind blowing out if he can't throw harder than he did last night and in his previous start.

AZ Phil - That's the first I have heard of his velocity last night. Was it maybe just the gun they were using? I know that would only maybe account for 2-3 mph, but I can live a little more with him throwing 90-92 on his fastball if that was the issue...
They actually talk about his change in velocity, and Harden says it was by design... As long as he gets results, if it means he doesn't hurt himself, then that's fine with me...

Submitted by Jace on Fri, 09/12/2008 - 9:20am.

AZ Phil - That's the first I have heard of his velocity last night. Was it maybe just the gun they were using? I know that would only maybe account for 2-3 mph, but I can live a little more with him throwing 90-92 on his fastball if that was the issue...


JACE: The same gun showed Wellemeyer's fastball consistently at 91-93 MPH and touching 94 a couple or three times, which is a typical fastball for Welly.

JACE: I read the Sun Times article you linked (and thanks for that, BTW), and Harden is quoted as saying he intentionally was holding it back in order to try and throw more strikes and make better pitches, and also so he would have something left available in the tank when he needed it.

The problem is, in the 6th inning when he probably should have been reaching back for something extra, he was still throwing 87-89 (max). I don't think he could have thrown a mid-90's fastball last night if his life depended on it.

Personally, I'll take the "old' Harden and his virtually unhittable mid-90's fastball & killer-change combo that produced a hyper-K count, no hits, and a few too many walks, over a high 80's "straight" four-seamer that he can throw consistently for strikes, but gets nothing in return but fly balls and where his "out" pitch is his change-up.

A high 80's straight four-seamer without any movement & low-80's change combo with no breaking ball is just not a good formula for long-term success (especially in the post-season), IMO. 

I don't see what was gained by sitting Harden for 12 days if he still has trouble hitting 90. It looks like he's at exactly same place he was on 8/29 (before he got shut-down).

Pitch f/x shows his fastball in the 90-92 range in the 6th inning with one fastball at 94 to Felipe Lopez.

I believe it's agreed upon that it's far more accurate and consistent than the stadium and TV radar guns.

his previous start, definitely sitting in the 88-90 range. He hits 92 a few times.

Seriously, it's not like they're going to lie to us about an injury. If there was something wrong, I'm certain they'd tell us.

The Joe must have missed the Prior years.

Who's that?

How many years prior... oh wait... you mean the Mark Prior years... sometimes it is fun to be intentionally obtuse. It is always... and I mean always... fun to use the ellipses.


In this July 31 start against Milwaukee, Gameday had him consistently in the 90-94 range with a high of 97 and a low of 88.

Maybe Harden's reference to having something left in the tank was referring to later in the season, not in the game... I agree that I thought the old Harder was better, but maybe he's just tinkering, trying something new that will help him stay healthy. I am not sure that mid-September is the time to do something like that, but if the alternative is to not have him for the post-season, I'll take it.

Didn’t Harden have a velocity drop in the two starts before the Cubs acquired him? Maybe this just happens to him from time to time?

The Astros are still considering multiple possibilities to make up those games, but owner Drayton McLane would prefer to have those games at Minute Maid Park either Sunday and Monday or after Sept. 28, which is currently the date of the season finale


The Cubs had hoped the potentially crucial series could be moved to a neutral site, and they made their displeasure clear to the Astros, the commissioner’s office, the union and to the media.

"It wasn't the Cubs' unilateral decision not to come,” Astros general manager Ed Wade said. “This was a process, conversations that had been taking place over the better part of 24 hours at this point with regard to what was going to happen. Everybody's looking at the same weather data and trying to look at the schedule and trying to determine what the right thing to do is.

“The Cubs had very strong feelings about what they felt was appropriate and everybody got on the same page and everybody is comfortable with the announcement.”

As for Selig waving the hand of god and forcing everyone to a neutral site, I'm not sure the CBA allows for that. Seems like both team and their players have to agree and the union gets involved as well.

Right now the hope is for a doubleheader Sunday and game Monday. It's very possible they'll do a doubleheader Monday and then make up the game at the end of the year if needed.

TOM RICKETTS, 42, Wilmette

Chief Executive of Incapital LLC---Chicago investment bank specializing in packaging corporate bonds for retail investors.


BS until you post a link.

preferably from

Oh, you meant, YOU are the one trying to start that rumor. Ok.

Here's the site-

One of his "sources" was his cat.


I think it's pretty clear that I'm asking if anyone passing through TCR KNOWS if the rumor that Cuban is out is BS or not.

But apparently no one here had even heard the rumor.

To play a DH Sunday, presumable teh CUsb woudl need to fly in Saturday.

Doesn't seem like a good time to be flying into Houston.

I'm skeptical that they'll even be able to play Monday, unless they move this series elsewhere..

This just to go to show again what a dumb fuck Selig is.

The storm is hitting there on Saturday!!!

You cancelled a game because of it , but yet you will jeopardize a team's wellfare by flying there on Saturday.

Stupid. Move the game to St Louis.

Why is everyone in a tizzy to play this series? They just swept us and are still playing amazing baseball. Avoiding them and being able to set the rotation versus the Brewers seems like a win-win.

Nonetheless, I'm not sure unless Bud uses his best interests of baseball powers that he can just move the series. Obviously they're not going to jeopardize anyone's safety by flying them in just so they can play Sunday. I think there's a better chance the they play a double-header Monday and play a makeup game at the end of the season if necessary, which it probably won't be. 

"not sure unless Bud uses his best interests of baseball OWNERS"


There's also players with families involved here that live in Houston. If you read the link I posted above, you'll hear how they're relieved that they get a couple of days off so they can be with there families and make sure they're okay.

I don't think making them play thousands of miles away is really in the best interests of baseball.

Nothing has been decided about Sunday or Monday yet, I'm sure they'll wait to assess the damage. 

They'll have a pretty good idea about what kind of damage it caused by Noon on Sunday. Houston's pretty much in a swamp, so there will be some flooding, but by the time the eye reaches the city it's probably going to be down to a tropical storm. Last time that happened power was out for about 4 hours.

Galveston and Freeport will be different stories, though.

If this decision stands, it could turn into a terrible PR move by MLB, not to mention the idiocy involved in logistical problems for the players and fans. Imagine the juxtaposing of TV images of widespread destruction in Houston and the surrounding area - but look over here, baseball! Let's play two!

The AFL scored big points PR-wise when they cancelled games the Sunday after the Kennedy assassination. The NFL went ahead and played without TV coverage. While this wouldn't be quite the idiotic PR move that was, the National Weather Service's forecast doesn't sound so great.



Nice, Bud. Are you ready for some baseball?!

"Avoiding them and being able to set the rotation versus the Brewers seems like a win-win."

I agree, but we're not really avoiding them; moving the series would at least take away the home - field advantage. And playing a double header wouldn't seem to be in line with the Cub's strengths at this point.

Sunday DH

Z and Marquis

Monday pitcher


lilly tuesday-Mil

harden wednesday-Mil

Marshall or z/marquis short rest, not smart if it's Z

there is NO WAY that there will be a Sunday DH. Not gonna happen. Unless they move the games.

They got a roof!?

It would be like the Giants playing baseball IN McCovey Cove.

...with no staff, fans, and quite possibly no plumbing or electricity at the game...

sounds like Wrigley in late 70's

from landfall. McClane needs to get the idea of playing in Houston out of his head. Play this series in St. Louis or Atlanta two on Sunday and finish it on Monday. Charge half-price on the tickets and donate all revenues of the games and have each organization donate something like a grand per homeruns hit in the series to Hurricane relief.

fwiw, the stuff I read said that the worst part is usually before it hits landfall and possibly after...

But yeah, this is going to be ugly. 

Nope. The worst part is right when it hits landfall. The toughest winds are those around the eye of the storm, but the change is barely sensible. However, going from 0 winds to 50+ in a couple of minutes is what is usually perceived as violent. Once the wind kicks in, the changes are barely perceptible 'til the storm disintegrates.

earlier this week. The Astros won't be leaving Houston until Sunday at the earliest. The only day there's going to be baseball is on Monday and probably not in Houston. They will have more important things to deal with - like the aftermath of the fact that a quarter of the population of Galveston has decided to stay home.

The clean - up process alone will be extensive and ongoing thru the weekend, and beyond. Bad form to hold a ballgame at the same time, IMHO.

Once all these area are inundatesd which much of hem are already, then the rain comes. There is nowhere for it to go. They are forecast to get 10" from what I've seen...

Hey 10Man, looks like Lou Agrees with our theory that losing pitchers actually does effect hitting. It's not that hard of a concept (from Suntimes):

"We got into this funk when we lost our two starting pitchers [Harden and Carlos Zambrano]. I've said along that this club here is pitching first, defense second and timely hitting third. We've got to pitch here. And for the most part, we have. But as we lost those pitchers, our offense cooled.'' - Lou

does this help our argument blockhead, neal, pelmel and tbone??

sounds like a load of shit to me. not like this is a pennant chase.

granted...i cant disprove it...but...

1- i rarely take serious what most managers not named jim "there is crying in baseball" leyland say to the press. meaningless phrases and a manager's style really muddle up pretty much every q/a session. hell, lou's fond of asking the reporter exactly what was going during a game when they ask him "what happened when/why did you..." does that mean he's a retard who has no idea what he just managed? means he's doing a q/a with the press, imo.

2- i have no idea how lou or anyone would even go about proving how Z/haren effect the bats. i saw a lot more issues with bad D during that stretch more than bad bats...not like the bats were good, though. still...i cant imagine a 1st place team with a decent lead in sept. and a whole new crew of rookies to pad out the roster would fall to crap over that.

hell, its a season...people do good at the plate 30-40% of the time and very few do it consistently month 1 through 6...and no one gets to choose when they slump.

crunch. It took me a couple of years to realize that you really believe what you say and that you are a lot more analytical than me. So I see where your coming from.

But I believe Lou is a bit more emotional, then analytical. Whether he is right or not, I do believe HE believes what he says.

He doesn't strike me as terribly politically correct... or one who skirts around his opinions.

yeah, im not calling anyone saying "i dunno, i dont think so, this is why".

i got no more proof for my side than anyone else.

Interesting how you could read this fragment and think it supports the theory, when it actually contradicts it. Let's read it again.

" But as we lost those pitchers, our offense cooled."

It doesn't say 'so our offense cooled' or 'consequently our offense cooled' it just says 'our offense cooled', which is the same thing as saying 'I have a birthday this year, it's on Friday'. Lou doesn't imply any correlation, but you certainly are trying to read some.

its easy to read into that being implied cuz of the 'as we' can imply a link between an event and an outcome.

still...i think its dangerous territory when you start deconstructing media statement as being the makeup of the man. lou, in particular, would seem like he's not even watching the games he manages sometimes. that just doesn't make any f'n sense, though.

neal, your argument strikes me as ridiculous. But I'll play the game . . .

so discarding the last sentence, is he not clearly stating that the slump is a direct result of lost pitchers not cool hitters. can you deny that?

I mean that's exactly what he says. Which kind of unhinges your denial . . . ahem . . . again.

I mean pitchers first. end of argument. Lou is clearly implying it is teh reason for the slump.

It's really not that difficult an argument for me to understand. I respect those who disagree (it's just part of the game). As for me though, I'm a man of faith so i know what it's like to believe even if i don't see the cause with my physical eyes (hello, bacteria) or to subscribe to the inner affecting the outer (hello, confidence).


Right, the pitchers missed time and the hitters cooled off and we lost a bunch of games. No where does Lou imply any linkage between the two, just that the two happened at the same time, which is a recipe for losing. It's just reading comprehension.

you must be a politician. anyway here's how I comprehend the statement:

"We got into this funk when we lost our two starting pitchers [Harden and Carlos Zambrano]."

lou is saying that the funk is a result of losing those pitchers. Clear to me . . . but you would argue by using the word "WHEN" he was implying that there was no causal relationship - just luck that it happened at the same time? shallow argument.

"I've said along that this club here is pitching first, defense second and timely hitting third".

Lou seems quite clear here that he does not rely on hitting but it rates third . . . and that pitching ranks first. You don't have those you don't win. And also clear that he is saying that losing those pitchers is the reason for the slump.

"We've got to pitch here. And for the most part, we have. But as we lost those pitchers, our offense cooled.''

I think any reasonable human being would agree that lou is saying there is a causal relationship. like: as the rain fell the dirt slid down the hill. Or: as we drove west we came nearer to the Pacific Ocean. Also Lou is also indicating that THOSE pitchers were special and integral to the teams performance and I would argue "confidence".

You may not agree with lou and I can respect that . But don't act like that is not what he is saying. Pedantic to say the least. Also it's not a "reading comprehension" issue, and that is a low blow. We can all read here and my guess is if we took a poll most people would see a causal inference. So at the very least it is not SIMPLE.

and now for fun . . . Neal's argument:

"We got into this funk when we lost our two starting pitchers [Harden and Carlos Zambrano]."

In case you guys are putting a calendar together, the slump happened somewhat coincidentally around the time we lost those pitchers. If you guys need a date for the start of the slump -- well -- it was about then. But it's not related.

"I've said along that this club here is pitching first, defense second and timely hitting third."

I Lou Piniella thought I would throw this in here as an aside. Again I am not inferring a relationship between my previous statement about losing pitchers and a slump starting. Just wanted to use my first three fingers for something, um, anything.

"We've got to pitch here. And for the most part, we have. But as we lost those pitchers, our offense cooled.''

Look guys I just want to reiterate that the timing of the slump was right about the time we lost those darn pitchers. What were their names again? Well it doesn't matter. OH GUYS! again if you need a date for the time our hitters stopped hitting, you can probably just use the dates of losing those pitchers. My memory is they fell on about the same day. But it's not really important so don't waste your time.

magic numbers will stay put for another day.

looks like it's KC vs the Tribe and Nats at Fla, as it's rain delay theatre for Baltimore, Pittsburgh, NY, Boston.

it's raining here in Chicago too (Detroit's in town)

Reds officially get Micah Owings to perk up their offense. He'll fit in well right between Josh Fogg and David Weathers on the pitching staff too.

add em to the list:
Rays @ Yankees and Tigers @ WSox postponed...

eerily quiet friday night. Going to watch the Cards/Pirate...must be desperate.

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  • j.buchanan with a nice start...5ip 2h 1bb 3k, 0r/er

    zobrist with 2HR and a double through 8

    heyward 0-4 :(

    crunch 10 hours 39 min ago view
  • Mark Gonzales @MDGonzales

    Soler likely to return Sunday, Maddon says

    crunch 13 hours 17 min ago view
  • Right now, I'd like to see the Mets first, Giants 2nd.

    I believe that since most of the team from last years' NLCS is on the squad this year, they will really amp their game up even more to kick their ass in payback for 2015.

    The Giants just do not have the depth in years past, and I think all things equal - and at Wrigley - they could handle them.

    I do not want to see the Cards, period. Or their fans, media, or Joe Buck.

    The E-Man 13 hours 36 min ago view
  • I don't want to play Braves in the first round. Any friggin team in the league can win 3 of 5..I hate the first round. Furthermore, I wanted to play the Marlins in 2003 and the Mets over Dodgers last year.

    With that said in reverse order:
    3. Cardinals: It will be devastating to lose in the first round, but even worse to their main rival. It is increased incentive for the Cardinals, especially after last year. Cards would have nothing to lose, Cubs have everything to lose.

    2. Giants: Rotation in the playoffs scare me a bit, but what a lousy team.

    blockhead25 14 hours 19 min ago view
  • 1. Mets--because of the losses in the rotation
    2. Giants--because they're not the team they were BUT they maybe have bullshit even-year magic?
    3. Cardinals--because rivalry and not making the playoffs hurts them more than losing in the NLDS plus getting eliminated by them in the playoffs would make for horrible sports commentary next throughout next season.

    Charlie 16 hours 3 min ago view
  • Who's asking?

    jacos 16 hours 5 min ago view
  • #TeamEntropy

    CLE/DET rained out last night already, possible rain-outs in New York (vs. Baltimore), Boston(vs. Toronto) and Philly(vs. Mets) this weekend too.

    Not only games involving playoff spots that would need to be played, but any that involve home field advantage.

    Rob G. 16 hours 13 min ago view
  • I got the first one! Second one I'm not even sure what even/odd betting is.

    johann 17 hours 41 sec ago view
  • any opponent preference for NLDS?

    Mets are down to 1 great pitcher instead of 4. Syndegaard may pitch Sunday which means if Mets win the WC game, he'd be set up for Game 1. There's a chance they clinch a spot by Sunday so he'd pitch the WC and then we'd probably get Colon for Game 1. They've certainly had the hottest bats over the last week and month out of the WC options.

    Rob G. 17 hours 22 min ago view
  • Rob Richardson 22 hours 26 min ago view
  • Can't teach height and thinness

    jacos 1 day 21 min ago view
  • Hopefully Pirates don't call up A. Lincoln.

    jacos 1 day 9 hours ago view
  • j.buchanan going friday...should something like it.

    crunch 1 day 9 hours ago view
  • Wow. I didn't know they could do that.

    Nice for Willson, not so much for Addy.

    billybucks 1 day 10 hours ago view
  • Game is officially called...also officially a tie.

    Stats count, no make-up date of course.


    Rob G. 1 day 10 hours ago view
  • Yeah -- seeing the weather -- I hope KB and Rizz are inside, wrapped in blankets and drinking hot chocolate.

    billybucks 1 day 11 hours ago view