Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder Scoped
Ah, another new adventure in Cubbery.
Sorry for missing the day's rampant speculation on Ted Lilly's left pitching shoulder arthroscopy. I was in the OR all day and connecting hip bones to...
So in one hour what can you see during a shoulder scope? Dr. Yokum puts the scope in from the posterior portal, low and behold he sees a caricature of Sean Marshall smiling face on the anterior capsule. He then puts in a Wissinger rod to create an anterior portal and whoa, is that a Tom Gorzellany autograph on his biceps tendon?
As we all remember from a report right here at TCR, the Ted Lilly Chronicles...
Lilly was on the DL as of July 25th after experiencing left shoulder pain that was diagnosed as tendonitis and treated with 3 weeks of rest. In one of the stranger events of the season, he goes on the DL because of his shoulder but because he was going to have to rest his shoulder, he opted to have his knee scoped since it had been acting up for awhile from a torn meniscus. The original plan was for him to tough it out and get the knee scoped after the season but the doctors felt his shoulder pain was a cascade problem stemming from his knee, so the shoulder symptoms changed the gameplan. Lilly did have a shoulder MRI-Arthrogram in July (leading to the DL stint), which was reported to show tendonitis but no structural damage. He returned from the DL on Aug 17 against San Diego and pitched a healthy and strong 6 shutout innings only for the outing to be wasted in one of the more painful losses of the season, courtesy of Kevin Gregg's 4 run ninth inning stint ending with Kyle Blanks walk off HR.
In 2005 with Toronto, Lilly had several DL stints because of left biceps tendonitis which didn't require surgery. His shoulder didn't act up again until around the All-Star break (he was the lone Cub representative last season and didn't get into the game because that is when his shoulder started to ache).
In the media reports of what Dr. Yokum's procedure found and what he did, we see the terms debridement, washout and cleanup. That doesn't say much really except that some tissue was a bit worn and smoothed off. In this context debridement doesn't refer to removal of dead tissue (just worn tissue, so no maggots were needed) but specific anatomic structures like the biceps attachment to the glenoid/socket or biceps tendon as it enters the shoulder joint, the labrum (fibrous rim of the glenoid/socket) or the rotator cuff aren't specifically mentioned. When they say no structural damage was seen, it means none of the aforementioned items had enough damage to require reattachment. If his problem was biceps tendonitis or minor wear of the rotator cuff tendon (supraspinatus) they might have "cleaned up" these problems without feeling the need to repair or reattach anything. If he did have some signs of inflammation from friction outside the joint, often referred to impingement or bursitis, it's common to reshape the bone that rubs on the cuff (the acromion, which is a part of the shoulder blade/scapula). This is referred to as an acromionplasty and by flattening the front of that bone (it's common to have a curved shape in that area), it opens up the area that rubs on the cuff or biceps tendon where it enters the shoulder joint. Unfortunately, we're not told much from the media reports so I don't know if this was done. Clearly, this minimalist news is better news than getting reports that he had a capsular shift or tightening (Mark Prior), a labral repair (Angel Guzman, Kerry Wood) or a rotator cuff repair or even a biceps tenodesis which is a reattaching of the biceps tendon to the upper arm/humerus) and is done when the biceps is severely worn (Curt Schilling's situation which lead to controversy with doctors arguing whether he should have that surgery or not).
In the 6 months from November until late April, there is more than enough time to rehab and recover from a shoulder arthroscopic cleanup without any major structures needing repair. Unless Cubbery intervenes.
Ted Roosevelt Lilly a tough guy so I suspect he'll just do the return to sender thang, when pitching coach Larry Rothschild sends him the towel drill video. Ultimately we'll know if this surgery worked if it keeps his KNEE from acting up.
#1 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
Good write up, Doc. Thanks.
Is it likely the tendinitis inflammation from the July MRI-Arthrogram prevented the doctors from seeing the above issues? Or did the MRI likely reveal exactly these issues which they decided to fix surgically?
#2 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
I think the MRI-Arthrogram matched what they found at the arthroscopy since neither event has identified any "structural" damage. They didn't think he would need to be arthroscoped back in July and if he did have it scoped then it would have ended his season. The recovery from a knee scope can be obviously quicker. The original plan was to have his knee scoped after the season but it got bumped up when his shoulder started aching too. So the timing on these decisions are factored into how much playing time will the surgery impact, but it's far from the final factor which is usually persisting pain over time (usually months).
The Cubs weren't officially out of the race when Lilly's shoulder-knee combo became an issue and they thought he could get back in a 3 week window of time, which was pretty accurate. If that window was longer he might have needed more time just to do the minor league rehab thing. The Cardinals caught fire in August (while Lilly was on the DL) so his absence did have an adverse affect but he wasn't able to pitch with both problems so the decision at that time became fairly obvious.
There can be other factors pointing to the decision to have surgery including what his shoulder physical exam suggests, but in this case persisting pain in the face of nonsurgical management (anti-inflammatory meds and physical therapy) made Lilly eventually decide to have it scoped. It was still Lilly's decision and these are always shades of gray to this decision. Sometimes these symptoms go away with extended rest (i.e. the off season). If the problem cropped up next year after extended rest then they would have been faced with that decision and it would have interfered with his season more extensively so that's a plus to having it done now. Still there is no guarantee that it won't recur even after him getting an arthroscopy depending on what is causing the inflammation, for example if his shoulder is still impinging.
__________________________Soriano hops to fill Cubs problem spot
#3 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
Royals trade Mark Teahen to White Sox...
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/royals-agree...
#4 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
Dave Van Dyke on WSCR this am said this is the same surgery that Wood had in 2006 and Prior had in 2008.
Yikes.
Most important question, how is TLFC taking this?
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#5 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
Unfortunately, we're not told much from the media reports so I don't know if this was done. Clearly, this minimalist news is better news than getting reports that he had a capsular shift or tightening (Mark Prior), a labral repair (Angel Guzman, Kerry Wood) or a rotator cuff repair or even a biceps tenodesis which is a reattaching of the biceps tendon to the upper arm/humerus) and is done when the biceps is severely worn (Curt Schilling's situation which lead to controversy with doctors arguing whether he should have that surgery or not).
considering Wood and Prior had different surgeries, I think Van Dyck is just grouping all shoulder surgeries together...
#6 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
Probably an AZ Phil question here.....
How does MLB insurance work in regards to injured players (Lilly).
Does insurance cover 100% of Ted's contract if he misses 2010?
Will this esentially give the Cubs an extra 10 million to play with in Free Agency?
__________________________The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, dickheads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude
#7 More Importanly...What about a new ball girl?
Elliot Harris, fellow pervert, stole my question for the new owners regarding a ball girl at Wrigley.
And of course he asks the right Rickett about it.
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/quickhits/1865442,C...
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#8 Thomas Diamond bio
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091103&c...
if there's good news is that he's really just had the TJ surgery on his elbow which plenty of pitchers have been able to come back from, looks like he had ankle problems the last year or so that complicated matters..
#9 Look at the pretty colors
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2009/11/visua...
#10 Re: Look at the pretty colors
I can see those reports being extremely effective I am looking hunt commandos in an equatorial jungle or alien life forms in Antartica.
__________________________Once traded Juan Samuel and Mike LaValliere for Ryne Sandberg and Mike Scioscia in a fantasy league. Please think I am smart.
#11 Arizona hot stove
DBags buy out Chad Tracy, put Petit on waivers (claimed by Mariners).
__________________________Bradley hopes to fill Cubs' problem spot
#15 Re: Arizona hot stove
How in the Hell did Hendry miss out on claiming Petit? Was he not injured enough for Hendry's 40 man roster? Will be 25 this year and has great upside. Surely worth a look over Thomas Diamond or Chad Fkn Fox again.
Asleep at the wheel I presume
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/petity...
__________________________The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, dickheads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude
#16 Re: Arizona hot stove
must be a different Petit out there....
the one claimed by the Mariners gives up a lot of flyballs and has trouble keeping them in the park (13.6% HR/FB rate and 50% of balls hit off him are flyballs)
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4020...
Safeco is a good place for him to try and not suck....
#18 Re: Arizona hot stove
Not claiming he is a Cy Young candidate. But why not take a flyer on a young guy with average plus stuff. He has had some MLB success. He is only 24.
We've resigned Chad Fox 3 times. We've given 3 seperate contracts to Glendon Rusch. We just claimed Thomas Diamond. Petit is a better bet than any of those dudes are. Especially for nothing more than a waiver claim.
Especially with Lilly hurt.
__________________________The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, dickheads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude
#19 Re: Arizona hot stove
I don't see how the first two have anything to with it, Fox was a reliever with good stuff and guaranteed to give an extra roster spot come playoff time. Rusch's first signing was a late spring training move and then they resigned him thinking he could duplicate it.
Diamond's got good stuff, top prospect stuff, but had TJ surgery which guys come back from all the time and was of course claimed before Petit hit waivers.
I also assume Petit hit waivers because he's out of options.
#20 Re: Arizona hot stove
Glendon Rusch was collecting a check from the cubs from 2004-2007. 4 years 3 contracts.
My point is that not every move needs to be sexy/high dollar. Petit wouldn't hav cost anything to claim and give a ST invite to. He's probably as good a bet as Randy Wells to have a good year next year. Only he was an actual prospect and is 3 years younger.
When money is going to be scarce, why not roll the dice with some guys like Petit. Maybe one of them turns into something.
Or we can stand pat and just assume that everything works out.
__________________________The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, dickheads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude
#21 Re: Arizona hot stove
well it costs something to claim a player I believe albeit minimal...
Rusch got cut by the Rangers in 2004 in March, Cubs signed him as a free agent (I assume for not much over the league minimum) and then resigned in Nov of '2004 on a 2-yr deal.
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/press_releases/pr...
apparently after 2005, he received another 2-yr extension, had that ugly 2006 along with a blood clot and was cut before 2007. He was due to make $3.25M in 2007.
By Fangraphs value tool he well-exceeded his contracts even with the disaster of 2006 and not pitching in 2007.
as for Petit being an actual prospect, then you should love Thomas Diamond.
but I don't see anything in Petit that makes it much of a travesty, especially if he's out of options.
#24 Re: Arizona hot stove
I just want us to take a more proactive approach.
If we don't have money to spend, then we need to do some tire kicking.
To me, the worst thing possible this offseason is for management to decide
1) Ted Lilly will be fine
2) Randy Wells is a legitimate 3rd starter
3) Wells,Marshall,Gorzy will be an acceptable 3-5 in the rotation.
Especially since we don't have 1 single MLB ready Starter at AAA. Travesty to have a 140 million dollar payroll and absolutely zero SP depth.
__________________________The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, dickheads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude
#23 Re: Arizona hot stove
Petit is useless unless you want a guy to pitch 200 innings and give up 100 homers.
the guy is king of having really good sub-standard pitching and leaving/hanging too much of it in the zone.
#12 Harden talk
http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/2863
Miles talks about bringing back Harden now...
#13 Re: Harden talk
interesting note on Harden...
had a HR/FB% of 15.4% last year, usually you're around 10% I believe and that's mostly where Harden has been for his career (he's actually been below 10% for his career)..
his K rate didn't change much, so I'd expect a big bounce back year from him if he's not on the DL....
#14 Re: Harden talk
For all the complaints about Rothschild (deserved), Harden was very, very healthy while he was here.
__________________________Bradley hopes to fill Cubs' problem spot
#41 Re: Harden talk
I agree.
I cannot see Hendry going into the season with three number 4 or 5 pitchers, and Z who is a "two" at best.
With that possibility, and the always-thin "good" pitching market out-priced for the Rickett's new budget, it would not be a surprise if Harden finds his way into the Cubs' plans again.
Unfortunately, the Cubs will still not have a "Number One", elite Ace starter on the team.
When I watched the Playoffs this year, the Phillies, Yankees, Cards, and Angels all have one (or two).
I am still so fucking pissed at Hendry for his 100-year deal with Soriano.
Knucklehead Hendry.
__________________________Disappointed by "Cubbery" since 1966
#17 via MLBTR
Abreu signs 2-yr deal with Angels...
JJ Putz will be a FA, another broken wing buy low candidate...
#35 Re: via MLBTR
$19 million for two or $27 million for three years on Abreu.
__________________________Once traded Juan Samuel and Mike LaValliere for Ryne Sandberg and Mike Scioscia in a fantasy league. Please think I am smart.
#22 2-way players...
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/offense-...
a list of the top 25 seasons for players at various infield positions that excelled offensively and defensively...
Grace, Sandberg , Santo and Stan Hack are on there...
#28 Re: 2-way players...
Interesting, although "harmonic mean" is a new one on me, sounding vaguely New Agey. What does it mean?
#29 Re: 2-way players...
some fancy way of saying the best balanced seasons...
if all your value came on offense rather than defense, you wouldn't show up on the list or vice-versa....
#25 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
JJ Putz will be a FA, another broken wing buy low candidate...
---
Thats all the Cubs need is another Putz.
(da da boom)
__________________________Soriano hops to fill Cubs problem spot
#26 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
Old Mike and Mike joke. But if we pick up Putz and the Astros were to pick up Kevin Mench, we could have a Putz pitch to a Mench. Happy Hanukkah everyone!
#27 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
The following pitchers are available:
Steve Traschel
Glendon Rusch
Chuck Finley
Tom Glavine
Pedro Martinez (now more than ever)
I'm sure I've forgotten a few. Actually, my pipe dream is Lackey. He and Zambrano would probably kill each other though....
#30 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
Bartolo Colon
(if you can find him)
Also the Cubs could have a good shot at Vincent Padilla.
~cheap laugh~
__________________________I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#31 Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
Two minor leaguers sent back
__________________________http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/red-sox-acqu...
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me- hst
#32 Re: Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
http://www.soxprospects.com/moreprospects.htm
these guys have the prospects in the 40-60 range after the 2009 season, seems like Cubs couldn't have gotten in on that....
aaronb rant in 3...2...1
#33 Re: Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
odd player for BOS to spend 4+m on.
#34 Re: Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
Hermida made $2.25M last year and had a poor season, doubt he'll double his salary, $3M tops
personally it's a perfect player for Red Sox to take a shot on, low risk-high reward and they saved a lot of money last year...
#36 Re: Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
yeah, but where to play him? ...and is he going to be happy doing bench/injury work if that's his role?
#37 Re: Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
insurance if they don't get Holliday or Bay I assume, Drew's obviously no guarantee to play all the time either, and not like he won't be tradeable again if he becomes disgruntled...
exactly the type of move a big market team should make especially since the prospects didn't seem to exciting...
#38 Re: Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
It all depends on how you view was is going to shake out in arbitration offers. If a lot of arb eligible guys get non-tendered, and Hermida may have been a candidate for that, then the Red Sox may have paid for something they could have gotten for free. I don't think that's the case, but I think I heard yesterday that 22 teams had declines in ticket sales in 2009.
__________________________Once traded Juan Samuel and Mike LaValliere for Ryne Sandberg and Mike Scioscia in a fantasy league. Please think I am smart.
#39 Re: Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
it was just a pre-emptive strike, they'd have to bid against other teams if Marlins non-tendered him and those other teams could have offered Hermida a better shot at a regular gig.
I'm not even a huge Hermida fan or anything, but two lefty relievers low on the prospect totem pole seems like a good deal for a guy with immense, albeit untapped talent. The road splits are intriguing as well....
Anyway, I say good move by the Red Sox, they obviously believe in his talent as he was a possible acquisition for Manny two years back and Red Sox have some money to burn....
#42 Re: Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
Theo Epstein is a helluva smart guy.
But - the Cubs have Jim Hendry!
__________________________Disappointed by "Cubbery" since 1966
#49 Re: Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
take notes Jimbo
"It was a chance to get a guy with unfulfilled potential for a reasonable cost," Epstein said.
#50 Re: Red Sox get Hermida from Marlins
ughhhhhh
__________________________The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, dickheads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude
#40 totally off-topic...
http://withleather.uproxx.com/2009/11/tim-floyd-hi...
but Tim Floyd does have the honor of being the worst NBA coach ever and did it with the Bulls...
anyway, L.A. casino, girl fight, Tim Floyd...you know you wanna watch..
#43 Absolutely Shocking News...
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/p...
Tim Lincecum busted for possession of marijuana.
Never saw that one coming...
#44 Re: Absolutely Shocking News...
...and he deserves to be busted for driving around smoking. take that crap back to the mansion, kid.
#45 Re: Absolutely Shocking News...
Well - the Bay Area does have some of the best weed coming down from Humboldt County it is said.
__________________________Disappointed by "Cubbery" since 1966
#46 Re: Absolutely Shocking News...
sho-nuff.
driving around smoking it is pretty damn irresponsible, though. too many people take "smoking and driving" less seriously than they should, imo.
#47 Re: Absolutely Shocking News...
Better than drinking or being pilled out. It's legal out there anyway.
__________________________The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, dickheads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude
#48 Re: Absolutely Shocking News...
Make that smoking and driving and speeding. Not smart.
But they should just legalize it anyway.
#51 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
Being high off Marijuana is just as bad as driving drunk, your still impaired and can't operate a motor vehicle properly.
__________________________"Well, you can get a healthy guy to go out there and play 162 games, but he won’t do what I did in 120." - Milton Bradley
#52 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
I dunno. Some people (not me, of course) found themselves to be more alert drivers post-puff. They said it was pretty incredible how observant they could be all of a sudden.
Coincidentally, I think there should be a 1-beer law that makes it legal to drink one beer on your way home from the liquor store.
#53 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
I hearby nominate Jumbo for President!!!!
__________________________The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, dickheads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude
#56 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
I appreciate the support. It is probably proof that I am an alcoholic because I truly want that law. I would legalize and tax a few other things and would banish Congress to stuffy side rooms forever.
EDIT
Especially the House. And especially the Senate. And all Congressional hearings, baseball related or otherwise.
#54 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
Comparing driving stoned to driving drunk is like comparing apples to shoelaces. People BLACK OUT while drunk. Driving stoned is a piece of cake as long as you don't have to drive too fast or there aren't a bunch of crazy lights around.
#55 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
apples are mostly red or green, shoelaces are black, brown, red or white...so red apples with red shoelaces would be good for Regis Philbin...vote for Jumbo.
__________________________Soriano hops to fill Cubs problem spot
#57 Re: Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder ...
I didn't mention that my house is a 2 minute drive from the liquor store.