TCR: No Good Will Come of This

Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

The actual figures submitted are $3.4M by Theriot's camp and $2.6M by the Cubs, and those unfamiliar with the baseball arbitration process might think that either side has to prove their figure worthy. But as one astute reader noticed, $3M is the halfway point between the two figures and essentially Theriot's camp has to convince the panel that he's worth $3M or more and the Cubs have to convince them that Theriot is worth less than $3M. If Theriot's camp is successful, he'll get the $3.4M, if the Cubs are successful, he'll get $2.6M.

Chicago Cubs shortstop Ryan Theriot turns a double play against the Houston Astros

There are plenty of primers out there on the arbitration process and if you really want the nuts and bolts on how the hearing goes, I suggest this BP article. Here's the basic guidelines:

  • Each side submits their salary figure
  • A panel of 3 arbitrators hear the case
  • Each side gets an hour to present their case, then a half-hour rebuttal and final summation with the player side normally going first and the club getting final say(No wonder they win 60% of the cases).
  • Neither side is informed of the final vote(3-0 or 2-1) until well after the proceedings, just who won.
  • You can compare players with similar service time but not to exceed one year. Year 3 players (like Theriot) can compare themselves to three and four year service time players, but not five-year players.
  • and let me just blockquote what cannot be argued, before I breakdown what can be argued.

 

  1. The financial position of the player and the club (though player
    representatives often try to get this information in the back door by
    presenting attendance information that implies the health of a club's revenue streams).
  2. Press comments, testimonials or similar material bearing on
    the performance of either the player or the club, except for recognized
    annual player awards for playing excellence.
  3. Offers made by either the player or the club prior to arbitration.
  4. Cost to the parties of their representatives.
  5. Salaries in other sports or occupations.

So let's see how this case will go, with the points that can be argued.

1. The quality of the player's contribution to his club during the
past season (including but not limited to his overall performance,
special qualities of leadership and public appeal).

Year Age G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
2009 29 154 677 602 81 171 20 5 7 54 21 10 51 93 .284 .343 .369 .712 83 222 13 6 13 5 1
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 2/9/2010.

His walk rate dropped from 11% to 7.5% and his K rate went up from 10% to 15.4% along with a drop in his OBP from .387 to .343.

He also seemed to whine more about Milton Bradley than any other Cub it seemed...a real leader of men here.

2. The length and consistency of his career contribution.

Year Age G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
2005 25 9 14 13 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 .154 .214 .231 .445 15 3 0 0 0 0 0
2006 26 53 159 134 34 44 11 3 3 16 13 2 17 18 .328 .412 .522 .934 135 70 5 2 6 0 0
2007 27 148 597 537 80 143 30 2 3 45 28 4 49 50 .266 .326 .346 .672 71 186 12 0 8 3 1
2008 28 149 661 580 85 178 19 4 1 38 22 13 73 58 .307 .387 .359 .745 92 208 19 3 4 1 1
2009 29 154 677 602 81 171 20 5 7 54 21 10 51 93 .284 .343 .369 .712 83 222 13 6 13 5 1
5 Seasons 513 2108 1866 283 538 81 14 14 153 84 29 191 221 .288 .356 .369 .726 86 689 49 11 31 9 3
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 2/9/2010.

He does stay healthy for the most part and is pretty consistent...consistenly bad that is (wahaha, slaps self on back). Fangraphs' WAR values has him at 1.6, 3.1, and 2.8 wins from 2007-2009(BP has 2.3, 2.7, and 2.9 WARP1) which actually isn't too shabby. Among qualified shortstops, he ranked 11th out of 17 in 2009, 10th out of 14 in 2008, and 16th out of 17 in 2007 in OPS.

Of course, defense is a big part of the shortstop game and although there's a lot of complaining about Theriot's rag arm, his numbers seem to show that he's at least adequate. I have no idea if the Cubs have any idea what UZR is, but let me cover it with UZR, BP and standard fielding stats.

  2007 2008 2009
BP 108 97 105
UZR/150 7.7 0.7 8.7
Fielding % .980(8/25*) .975(10/18) .976(12/22)
Range Factor 4.04 (23/25)* 3.90 (18/18) 4.24 (14/22)

* if he qualified, which he seemed to just miss with 108 games at shortstop

Range factor is of course assists plus putouts over 9 innings, but it's going to be heavily influenced by the type of pitching staff. In the Cubs case, they've always been a high strikeout team which usually translates into more flyballs as well so don't be fooled too much by that number. On the other hand, the Cubs should try and fool the panel with it.

3. The record of the player's past compensation.

$390K in 2007, $428K in 2008, $500 K in 2009.  Theriot is asking for a jump of nearly 700% on his last salary.

4. Comparative baseball salaries (the arbitration panel is provided with a
table of confidential baseball salaries for all players broken down by
years of service).

Here's all the salaries for shortstops in their first year of eligibility in salary arbitration thanks to the awesome Cot's Baseball Contracts. Some players signed multi-year contracts.

Player Year Salary
Hanley Ramirez  2009 $5.5M
J.J. Hardy
2008
$2.65M
Jason Bartlett 2009 $1.98M
Troy Tulowitzki 2010
$3.5M
Khalil Greene
2007
$2.25M
Erick Aybar* 2010
$2.75M - $1.8M
Stephen Drew 2010
$3.4M
Yuniesky Betancourt** 2009 $2M
Felipe Lopez 2006 $2.7M

*Erick Aybar is still unsigned and arbitration eligible for the first time. He submitted $2.75M to the Angels $1.8M.

** Wittenmyer says he made $2.3M in 2009, Cot's has Betancourt at $2M with a $1.5M signing bonus on a four-year deal he signed before 2008 with the Mariners before being traded to the Royals.

I'll come back to this chart later.

5. The existence of any physical or mental defects on the part of the player.

Take all of Ryan Theriot's baserunning mishaps set to the tune of Benny Hill(also someone's idea in the comments). Easy win for the Cubs.

The Cubs could also present this video.

6. The recent performance of the club, including but not limited to his league standing and attendance.

Theriot's camp should be able to take advantage of this as the Cubs have done well since 2007 both on the field and financially. 


As you can see in the table under argument #4, Theriot's case is pretty much tied to Stephen Drew, while the Cubs have everyone else to compare him against. And if Theriot's team is smart, they'll drive that point to death as he actually matches up favorably to Drew.

Ryan Theriot

Year Age G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
2005 25 9 14 13 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 .154 .214 .231 .445 15 3 0 0 0 0 0
2006 26 53 159 134 34 44 11 3 3 16 13 2 17 18 .328 .412 .522 .934 135 70 5 2 6 0 0
2007 27 148 597 537 80 143 30 2 3 45 28 4 49 50 .266 .326 .346 .672 71 186 12 0 8 3 1
2008 28 149 661 580 85 178 19 4 1 38 22 13 73 58 .307 .387 .359 .745 92 208 19 3 4 1 1
2009 29 154 677 602 81 171 20 5 7 54 21 10 51 93 .284 .343 .369 .712 83 222 13 6 13 5 1
5 Seasons 513 2108 1866 283 538 81 14 14 153 84 29 191 221 .288 .356 .369 .726 86 689 49 11 31 9 3
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 2/9/2010.

Stephen Drew

Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
2006 ARI 59 226 209 27 66 13 7 5 23 2 0 14 50 .316 .357 .517 .874 117 108 1 0 2 1 4
2007 ARI 150 619 543 60 129 28 4 12 60 9 0 60 100 .238 .313 .370 .683 71 201 4 3 5 8 5
2008 ARI 152 663 611 91 178 44 11 21 67 3 3 41 109 .291 .333 .502 .836 109 307 5 1 3 7 6
2009 ARI 135 595 533 71 139 29 12 12 65 5 1 49 87 .261 .320 .428 .748 89 228 4 1 5 7 7
4 Seasons 496 2103 1896 249 512 114 34 50 215 19 4 164 346 .270 .326 .445 .771 93 844 14 5 15 23 22
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 2/10/2010.

With just 5 plate appearances separating them, Theriot has the edge in  BA, OBP, career Hits, Runs Scored, Stolen Bases. Drew leads in all the extra base hit categories, RBI's, SLG, OPS and OPS+. And remember, Theriot doesn't necessarily have to convince the panel he's just as good as Drew, but in the ballpark and the offensive numbers aren't that big a difference. If you throw in fielding, Theriot may actually come out ahead.

Career wise Drew has a .976% fielding percentage with with a 4.17 RF to Theriot's .976% and 4.06 RF. Then throw in some of the advanced metrics where Theriot's career UZR/150 is 4.8 to Drew's very poor -7.8 and BP has Theriot at a career 102 Rate2 to Drew's career 96. I imagine Theriot's crew looked at the comparasion to Drew extensively and that's where the $3.4M figure came from.

One important thing to remember is there are more than spreadsheets and stats involved in the argument. The people in the room and their abilities to convince the panel will be just as important. Remember the process, each side gets an hour to argue and then 30 minutes of rebuttal and a summation. If Theriot has the O.J. Simpson team in his corner, they could conceviably knock out everyone of the Cubs' points and convince the panel that Theriot is every bit as good as Stephen Drew and Troy Tulowitzki.

As for the case against Theriot, Drew made substantially more in 2009 on the original major league deal he signed when he was drafted ($1.5M in 2009), so the raise to $3.4M isn't nearly as steep as the one that Theriot is asking for from the $500K he earned in 2009. Historically, teams have won 60% of arbitration cases...yet another knock on Theriot's case.  Also, teams have been paying about $1.1M per win for first year arbitration eligible players like Theriot. He's forecasted for a 2.2 WAR by CHONE, which means he'd be worth about $2.42M. Of course, a projection is never going to come up in an arbitration case I assume. They'll stick to the player's past contributions. If you take his average WAR over the last 3 years (2.5 WAR), he'd be set to make $2.75M for next year which would put the case in favor of the Cubs. Theriot's camp would be wise to argue that he's become a better player the last two years, where he's averaged a 2.95 WAR which at $1.1M a win would give make him worth more like $3.24M and give him the win in the case.

If you go to Fangraphs and sort by WAR for shortstops in 2009(no promise that links works), Theriot's smack in the middle and slightly above Drew, but behind Aybar, Bartlett and Tulowitzki. If you go by the last 3 years, once again he's ahead of Drew, but well behind Bartlett and Hardy, both of who made less. Of course he can try to argue team success and team profitability to try and make up the difference.

It should be an interesting case and I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as people want to make it out in favor of the Cubs. I certainly don't think he's worth the $3M or more and Theriot does seem to be climbing an uphill battle. On the other hand, if he's got the captain of the debate team on his side and they can be more convincing than Jim Hendry and the Cubs, he does have some points he can make to drive his point home.

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#1 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

Thank you for this.

Basically, he has a 50% CS rate.

And, at the top of the order with a reasonable amount of attempts, this is unacceptable.

I wonder how much of this fact will be argued or defended?

#2 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

I get 67% last year 21/31 and 74.3% for his career. Not that terrible.

If he's going on his own, I guess that could come up. If he's being sent by Lou, then not much the Cubs could argue.

BP's advanced baserunning has him at:
1.1, -0.4, -1.5 (2007-2009) EqBRR

Measures the number of runs contributed by a player's advancement on the bases, above what would be expected based on the number and quality of the baserunning opportunities with which the player is presented, park-adjusted and based on a multi-year run expectancy table.

#5 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

Thanks Rob G.

Indeed, I thought it was 21/51!

My bad.

Well, that is not truly "terrible" - 21/31.

He seems slow as hell, or gets plain "bad jumps", more than usual.

#14 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

He's not a good base stealer. He gets terrible jumps.

#16 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

well he's definitely gotten worse...

he was 41/47 in his first season and a half, that's beyond excellent.

43/66 over the last two seasons at 65%...75% I believe is the threshold of it's no longer a good idea.

#50 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

66%, but that's all time- depends on the scoring environment. 75% may be now, but that sounds a bit high.

#3 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

drew being a power hitting SS and a notably better SS (no matter what retard matrix dragged it's broken limbs out to flail around) it's a pretty weak comparison, even if convenient.

it's not even like riot is a horrible SS...average...but numbers showing drew is a bad SS are bad numbers...especially the last 2 years.

...and yes, the past 2 years drew has been rated as a horrible SS...i know...and it's retarded. hell, last year he was pretty damn good.

#4 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

what do you think they'll use to argue their defensive abilities? Magic?

of course they'll use numbers because neither side is going to have an objective scouting report to use.

"Here's out scout Gary Hughes, he says Drew is better defensively than Theriot."

that'll go over well with the panel I'm sure.

and if you don't want to use UZR or whatever, the standard fielding metrics don't show Drew to be much better either.

notably better SS

it's essentially a court case, what's the evidence that will support it? They going to show video side-by-side, are there neutral scouts they can quote?

#15 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

magic? no. drew...a little bit.

btw, you do know almost every mlb team has their own defense stats matrix (or other way to quantify defense)? the stats in books aren't the only stats out there.

the image of the MLB team just discovering stats or waiting around for a community to develop them is a fabrication too many buy into. what you think is in all those binders in the dugout? what you think those pitchers on rest or the kids/coaches writing stuff down in the dugout are doing and what do you think that info is being parlayed into? you're not gonna be able to go to amazon.com and buy the results...

#17 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

btw, you do know almost every mlb team has their own defense stats matrix (or other way to quantify defense)?

I do.

Do you know what the Cubs and Dbacks systems say about the Drew and Theriot? I sure don't.

and how much weight would that carry in an arbitration case using proprietary info?

"our system says theriot isn't that good?"
"let's see that."
(scribbles note on piece of paper)
"see, he's ranked last"

#18 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

you have an interesting view of the arb. process. let's flip it from the player's advisor's side...

"bill james says theriot isn't that good?"
"let's see that."
(scribbles note on piece of paper)
"see, he's ranked last"

those notebooks are portable, ya know.

instead of counting on hobbyist lawyers and mathematicians teams have full-time guys to crunch these numbers using data that is waaaaaaaaaaaay more reliable than looking at errors and other broad stats. they can generate reports on this data, too, just like some lawyer putting in 4-6 hours a week looking at historical public data.

-edit- btw, you don't really even need numbers to compare drew to theriot...especially if you want to talk about fielding balls to the left and footwork on double plays. drew's footwork is obviously better and god knows he can throw better.

#19 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

hmmm, independent expert analysts are often used in court cases although hired by one side. The key is independent. It's not like James would be called to testified, he would of just helped put the case together and I assume in a relatable way. Here are the points you want to talk about, here's what to say to refute their points.

And not that the Cubs couldn't use their own defensive metrics to make a case, but do you know what those metrics say? Or that the Cubs even have one?

no?

me neither...

but a lot of the binders are splits and pitcher vs batter splits and hot and cold zones along with advanced scouting reports...pretty standard stuff. 7 years of interviews with Hendry will tell you they don't put a lot of stock into any sophisticated statistical analysis.

#22 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

no one outside the organization should know what those metrics say.

the data collected is for a far greater use than spray charts, believe that. when they want a player/coach to track the game's defensive setup as well as results they care about a lot more than just who sprayed what on what kind of pitch.

i've seen people turn in pages of info with defensive setup dots and pitch/in-play location notes. they don't take these notes and shove them into a binder. they compress the game's data and add it to the existing data for later use. archival data can be used later when new data technology use is desirable.

besides all that defensive stuff...theriot is a singles hitting dude and drew is pretty universally believed to be a solid 20+ hr guy at SS.

#23 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

besides all that defensive stuff...theriot is a singles hitting dude and drew is pretty universally believed to be a solid 20+ hr guy at SS.

and Corey Patterson was a true 5-tool player, none of what is believed or projected has any bearing on an arbitration case. It's what has happened so far...

#32 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

really?

okay.

if drew hits 20HR it's not news. if theriot does it's news.

drew hits what...30 doubles, 10 triples, 15-ish HR a year? yeah, drew can hit 20HR and no one would go "woah". hell, he's even shown he can.

#35 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

drew hits what...30 doubles, 10 triples, 15-ish HR a year? yeah, drew can hit 20HR and no one would go "woah". hell, he's even shown he can.

so the argument then is that Drew's power is better than Theriot's? yeah, that was covered...

Theriot's OBP, defense(arguably), BA, speed have shown to be better than Drew's so far...and so far is all that matters.

#52 Re:

Doesn't Tulo's contract pretty much crush anything that Drew comps can be used for?

Anyway, crunch is talking out of his ass here. What he's talking about is 3 full time guys to do defense stats for players. The Red Sox and Yankees might do that. The Cubs sure as hell don't. They probably subscribe to Stats Inc, but so does UZR. The Cardinals hired MGL as a consultant based on UZR (and UZR is no good).

#56 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

Doesn't Tulo's contract pretty much crush anything that Drew comps can be used for?

if Hendry is smart...yes. As I said, there's one thing going for Theriot, Stephen Drew's contract and everyone else is on the Cubs side. Theriot can also use the teams' record since he became starting shortstop and attendance since 2007. Yeah, it sounds silly, but it's allowed and considered.

I know the A's have their own defensive system as well.

#20 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

"drew's footwork is obviously better and god knows he can throw better."

God may know it. But will the arbitration panel?

#21 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

-edit- btw, you don't really even need numbers to compare drew to theriot

you'll need them to convince an arbitration panel though...

#24 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

long story short...if you even compare the 2 besides saying "well, drew got this recently for his play" then you got issues...and it should be the cubs using that info to discount theriot's value because at worst they're both average SS, but drew is good for a world's difference of more power.

#25 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

if you even compare the 2 besides saying "well, drew got this" then you got issue

huh? where do you think Theriot's agent and him got the $3.4M figure from?

#26 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

if theriot's agent thinks theriot is comparable to drew then theriot needs a new agent.

20+HR capable SS's don't grow on trees and theriot isn't even a shred of one.

#28 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

20+HR capable SS's don't grow on trees and theriot isn't even a shred of one.

that has nothing to do with an arbitration case though...

#29 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

yeah, it does...

peer comparison and salary of peers in the same arb-year class is a large part of it. comparing theriot to drew is retarded by default aside from a base economic indicator of SS value in my view.

#33 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

peer comparison and salary of peers in the same arb-year class is a large part of it.

yup, and how do you think they compare them?

(hint: statistics)

#36 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

if it was just that they wouldn't need an hour with 30 minute rebuttals.

also, they're not rolling up in there with just some UZR ratings to defend or make cases on how someone uses their feet, arms, and hands playing D. in fact, you can use things other than (hint: statistics) to make that point along with using custom (hint: statistics) built from a strong/literal data base.

that said, it's easy to find a few dozen scouts, even independents, to give pros/cons of D that will mean a lot more than numbers...and honestly, with theriot you're not gonna find a lot of variation.

#39 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

also, they're not rolling up in there with just some UZR ratings to defend or make cases on how someone uses their feet, arms, and hands playing D.

yeah I would venture a solid guess that their feet, arms and hands are not mentioned, but rather the totality of their defensive contributions as compared to their peers.

whether they use UZR, standard stats or their own info I could not tell you...

#41 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

"yeah I would venture a solid guess that their feet, arms and hands are not mentioned, but rather the totality of their defensive contributions as compared to their peers."

really?

#43 Re: Is Ryan Theriot Worth $3 Million?

yeah really.

is there some objective scale that ranks their footwork, arm and range and how it affected games?

because saying a guy does better to his left isn't going to carry much weight. or he has a 60 arm on the scouting scale to this guy's 45 or he has better footwork around the bag on a double play.

Range factor, double plays turned, fielding percentage or advanced stats on the other hand will.

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