Ramirez Gets Hurt...Badly

In the bottom of the third inning, on a sharp grounder down the line, Aramis Ramirez fully extended to his right and immediately grabbed his arm. Initally it appeared that maybe he broke his elbow or another bone by his reaction, but the replay showed him immediately grabbing his hand and upper tricep area and nothing really impacted with the ground that would apper to lead to any broken bones. The parachat consensus was a disclocated shoulder and Aramis looked in great amounts of pain.  Screen grabs after the jump...

 
 
 

Hopefully Dr. Hecht can be along once we hear exactly what it is, but hard to imagine he'll avoid the DL with the way he initally reacted to the play.

UPDATE: Len just said that is indeed a dislocated left shoulder and he's undergoing X-rays at the moment. No word on the severity yet.

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Awesome. Cubs lose their best player. The Ryan Freel Experience officially begins!

Too bad Freel is on the DL.

This could be a HUGE loss. He is clearly the best offensive player on this team. Man, this injury could really hurt...UGH!!!!!

I think Freel will be available tomorrow or did I read that wrong?

Keep fingers crossed.

official word per Pat/Ron...dislocated Left shoulder

probably needs xrays then manipulation to reduce it. Very painful for a first time dislocation but almost no pain once it's reduced back in place.

Need XRays to make sure no fracture is associated.

Fortunately it's not his throwing arm.

Will write up more later.

Freel vs Scales...hmmm.

I think they've got to keep Scales now when Aramis goes on the DL, and prolly do a Scales/Freel platoon while he is out?

Freel is available tomorrow, if they send Wells back to Iowa. Not sure if they won't need him for a 2nd start though.

In pregame Rothschild said Z was healing quickly and did long throw reporting no pain in his hamstring.

Wells pitched "well" enough to earn a 2nd start, didn't he? I think so--and he can certainly pitch in middle relief if he doesn't start. Why not keep him and send Fox down, instead?

or just send Aramis to the DL

This sucks as the team was starting to get healthy and playing better baseball over the past week or so. Let's hope ARam is out for a lengthy period of time, it could be hard for this team to keep pace. DAMN!!!

Let's hope ARam is out for a lengthy period of time,

and the truth comes out...Freudian slip.

HA HA :)

A long time ago i dislocated my shoulder, and it was an awful experience. Took me around a year to get full motion back, but somehow I think Aramis is going to have a little bit more rehab than my insurance was willing to pay for. Hopefully he can be back withing 3-4 weeks.

As a physical therapist, I'm going to say 4 weeks. Just needs to get the pain and inflammation down and hope it doesn't sublux everytime he swings the bat or some other motion.

A Dislocated shoulder at a minimum is 2 weeks off. So I'd be shocked if ARam doesn't hit the DL.

If no fracture is associated with the dislocation, I'd guess it's 2-4 weeks off. He's going to get X-Rays now and probably an MRI tomorrow to assess the details of the soft tissue damage that is present from the shoulder when it dislocates anteriorly.

There are some trends to do an early repair of the soft tissues (trying to place the torn capsule back on the glenoid (socket) rim, when the anterior capsule has a large tear (also in a high end athlete and a throwing shoulder) but it's his non-throwing shoulder so that's less likely.

The last anterior shoulder dislocation I remember was the WSox former backup catcher, Toby Hall and he opted out of surgery for a big tear. I think it was his throwing shoulder though.

The treatment thinking is different if it's a recurrent shoulder dislocation, which this isn't apparently...so it's called a primary or first time dislocation.

In other news, this home plate ump has absolutely no concept of the strike zone. Fortunately, it's worked out for the Cubs a few times, but Uncle Milty had a right to be upset about his called strike three.

Heilman...getting to hate your Howry impersonation.

You owe Randy Wells BIGTIME.

whatever I said about Heilman not pitching enough...I take back.

Die.

Yeah that sucked to watch. I was thinking: I'm doing this for fun? On my own time? Ugh.

Poor Wells. Pitched more than good enough to earn a victory. Then Guz and Heilman piss it away. This bullpen is going to give us gray hair this year.

What a shitty fucking game. It was a game that the Cubs should have won and now we lost our best player. What a great way to start the weekend.

They just needed to score more than 2 runs. This team and the way the bullpen is isn't going to win alot of low scoring close games. That sucks to say but its the truth.

A couple of runs in that 8th inning and all is well.

Geo Soto: A genuine bum this year. Once AGAIN he chokes with the sacks loaded. Theriot's BS first-swing tapper and Soto's GIDP, there's your ballgame.

F U C K

To elaborate, I'd say this injury falls somewhere between Lee's broken wrist and Nomar's groin.

Since you have to start thinking damage control already, I'd say find a good-defending 3rd baseman where ever you can find him, however shitty his bat is.

Next, for God's sake, find a bullpen arm you can trust. Marmol & Gregg can't pitch every game.

Well, we had one with some pop - his name was Mark DeRosa.

FUCK YOU HENDRY!!

Sorry but motherfucking Fontenot, Bobby Scales, Ryan Freel, or Aaron Miles, are not as good on a regular basis as DeRo.

HE was "paid-for" as an insurance policy, and the policy lapsed due to the fucking GM.

Again, with the light-ass hitting going on, this team will get buried, and quick. .235 Team BA with RISP!

Its going to improve now?! DP Lee, "Flash in the Pan" Soto, Miles, Mendoza Bradley, Fontenot?!!! Are you kidding me??!

nah, more like Soriano's broken hand...6-week layoff at most but should be fine when he gets back.

Yeah, that's about right. Although we're taking a much bigger hit offensively, since last year we had DeRosa ready to take over LF and Fontenot to take over 2B. Lee, Bradley, and Soto are really going to have to get it in gear to pick up the slack.

Maybe McFail will give us Scott Moore back?

#24 Re: Ramirez Gets Hurt...Badly
*new
Submitted by Ryno on Fri, 05/08/2009 - 8:54pm.

To elaborate, I'd say this injury falls somewhere between Lee's broken wrist and Nomar's groin.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Actually, I would say that A-Ram's dislocated shoulder is above Lee's broken wrist and Nomar's groin. I learned this by being forced to watch Grey's Anatomy with my wife... that and a truly basic notion of anatomy. Shoulder, then wrist, then groin. Then again, it depends upon how you are sitting I guess...

If this is anything like Grey's Anatomy, Aram is gay for Theriot and also wants to find a way to carry his baby.

No, but serious, dude... stop watching Grey's Anatomy. :)

And people begin to move back to the ledge...

And the good news? Marmol and Gregg didn't need to pitch tonight. :)

actually Marmol did....

I'd say this injury falls somewhere between...
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No, if it's just a dislocated shoulder it's much less severe than either of those injuries. If there is a fracture associated with it...then it's up there.

It's his first dislocation so it's not like he's had stretched tissue making the shoulder less stable as in a recurrent shoulder that dislocates. Therefore there is usually more pain and muscle spasm until the shoulder is reduced back in place. Recurrent shoulder dislocations hurt but usually it's easier to relocate them. The quicker they can get it in place the less sedation/muscle relaxation is needed to overcome muscle spasms.

Again it's not his throwing shoulder so unless the shoulder is really loose/unstable after this injury he can make a recovery probably closer to 4 weeks as MGB has estimated.

Also note the first pic in Robs screen capture and you can see his glove (left) arm hyperextending and being forced farther back with ground impact with it being fully outstretched in an overhand position...fairly classic for the position to create an anterior dislocation. The dislocation event is in the process of happening around this pic. In pictures 2-4 the shoulder is already anteriorly dislocated.

Here's a link with a quote that matches ARam's mechanism of injury: "Most dislocations occur with the arm in a position away from the body, often overhead, and then with the arm rotated backwards."

http://tinyurl.com/pwchll

Which is more fun to watch -- Sori fishing for sliders in the dirt, or Milty taking yet another called third strike?

For such an agrressive personality, Bradley has been very passive at the plate -- way too many called third strikes.

Joe-day is ruined.

or Aaron Miles taking 5 straight 85 mph "fastballs" leading off the 9th inning.

Almost like Hoffman knew he was waiting for the change-up. Never came.

One way in which Neifi Perez is a different player than Aaron Miles...

Go.

I can't think of anything. They are both wastes of a jersey.

Neifi could play a pretty decent shortstop?

But yeah, Miles looks worse than a pitcher at the plate. Glad we have him locked up for 2 years.

According to the Yahoo game summeary Ramirez had the same injury in 2000 and missed 6 weeks:

“I felt a pop. I’ve done it before,” said Ramirez, who hurt the same shoulder in 2000 in Pittsburgh and missed six weeks. “It’s been nine years since I’ve been playing, it’s just one of those things.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=AuVJhkpQohK...

Oh well, June is stupid anyways.

Anybody else wonder if Jake Fox gets some more reps at 3B in Iowa during the coming week?

If he's out 2-6 weeks, this is not the end of the world. A setback, though. Maybe two of Milton, Lee, and Soto finally get their bats going and pick the team up.

Forget replacing Rammy's bat. That ain't going to happen or said bat would already be in the lineup. Pitching & defense... Find a guy who can play a nice defensive game at 3B. Any ideas? I got nothing.

I actually think Fontenot was showing some real improvement over there. I know he is alot shorter than your ideal third baseman would be.

They've got 3 options now on the roster as it is with Fontenot, Freel and Scales.

Anybody else wonder if Jake Fox gets some more reps at 3B in Iowa during the coming week?

Nope. Lou values defense.

from Miles...

He'll head back to Chicago tomorrow for an MRI, and the Cubs say they're looking at a 4-6 week absence. Ramirez is hitting .364 with 4 homers, 16 RBI, an OBP of .417 and a slugging percentage of .591. He's the guy the Cubs can least afford to lose.

Is it official? Sky has fallen?

It hasn't fallen completely, but it is coming down pretty good.

Like I said a few weeks ago, this team should be fine if they get healthy, and that is just not happening.

Z on the DL, ARam on the DL, Soto & Bradley are either still hurt or just flat out struggling. This is not the time now for any of the "healthy" players to be slumping. Lee, K-Fuk, FontGod are just not good right now too. It is almost mid May now, time to pick up the slack from ARam or this season could be an epic failure.

Get Healthy Soon!!! Go Cubs!!

I was being sarcastic, for the record. Because there are people who think the season's over. Guess you didn't pick that up from my post.

Go manny! GO CUBS!!!!!!

in dusty we trusty....

In Marcus Giles we drool...

No I did not pick that up.

Go Wes!!

Didn't Bradley rip a home run in last night's game?

Yes he did hit a HR last night. But he is hitting .150 on the year. And since his disastrous 1-24 (.042) start, he is still only 8 for his last 36 (.222). I would still call that struggling.

4-6 weeks. And this is the same shoulder Rammy hurt in Pittsburgh in both 98 and 2000. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him have a major drop in power once he returns. He might not get his full strength back for months, perhaps not until next season. Not good.

I don't like any of the options for that length of time. I don't want to beat the Dero thing into the ground, but man he was a valuable guy.

Whoever plays 3b the majority of time might depend more on who plays 2b the majority. Scales fielding percentage at 3b over his minor league career is under .900. I know minor league fields aren't as well kept as major league fields, but that is a god awful percentage. I doubt he can play there very often and not reveal some major shortcomings. We are probably stuck with a platoon of Fontenot/Freel at 3b, with Miles getting most of the play at 2b. That's going to kill the offense.

I knew there was nothing in the minors to help at 3b, but I took another look. Nobody who is a true 3b at Iowa, just weak hitting middle infielders. West Tenn has 3 third baseman, but the two top guys, Kyle Reynolds and Marquez Smith, aren't hitting even .200, and neither are on the 40 man.

It's still early in the season, but if DLee, Soto, and others don't pick it up, and the bullpen doesn't settle down, they could be looking up the entire year.

Tribune story:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs...

There is somebody at Tennessee (AA) that you're overlooking, but the Cubs are probably overlooking him, too, because he's playing catcher. But he's a recently converted shortstop.

Clevenger. This guy hits effortlessly at every level. He could probably learn to play third in about four days.

I took a course taught by Kevin Wilk last fall (Dr. Andrews's physical therapist). They don't do surgery much anymore for these injuries, unless they are associated with a bony defect. Simply, they don't work. Dr. Andrews doesn't even put them in a sling all of the time. Generally, get the pain down, and get the motion loss back, if there is any. Start strengthening in maybe a week to two, and start taking grounders and BP in two. Back in 4. I've had similar baseball injuries with my patients, including one specifically who dislocated diving for a ball, and these generally do well, especially on the glove hand. I'm going to fool around a little bit later with a swing to see if I would stress the inferior/anterior parts of the shoulder.

I feel bad for Aram because I believe this is the beginning of the end of his career. I just don't see him being the same after this and having that shoulder issue to plague him for the rest of his career.

I pray I'm wrong.

Time for Bradley and Soriano to have one of those nuclear hot months of his.

Both Ramirez's out until July 4th.

Well, that certainly seems premature. From all reports, this is something he's dealt with before and he's certainly not had any problems hitting (power or otherwise) since. This obviously increases the chance of future dislocations but it seems really rash to "not see him being the same after this" or "believe this is the beginning of the end of his career," especially if you don't have medical expertise yourself. Those who do, such as MerigoldBowling and Cubster, seem far less extremist.

That said, one could argue ARam's on the downside of his career already considering he'll be 31 this year.

So it's more clear that this is a recurrent dislocation although he's probably never had a full dislocation (they called it partial or a subluxation from his earlier injury to this shoulder). The injuries from 98 and 2000 imply he had a pre-existing (Bankart) lesion...

http://tinyurl.com/rbqycj

...making it sound like last night's injury just made the previously injured tissue somewhat more extensive. Next step is an MRI but MGB's post #49 is an appropriate scenerio. Once the shoulder is reduced the pain is usually minimal. Thanks MerigoldBowling. Good info.

and from Bruce Levine's blog...

According to Ramirez's agent, Paul Kinver, the Cubs' third baseman has had two other occasions during his major-league career where he had partial dislocations in his shoulder.

Ramirez had suffered a partial dislocation of his left shoulder on Aug. 28, 2000 (with Pittsburgh), Levine reported. He missed the remainder of the season. On August 9, 1998, Ramirez hyperextended his left shoulder. He returned to the lineup on Sept. 4 (3+ weeks).

and from the Tribune/Sullivan...

Ramirez returned to Chicago for an MRI after a Brewers' physician popped his shoulder into place.
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also by ARam's injury being his (left) front shoulder...I don't think it will have significant impact on his power wrt hitting. Thankfully it wasn't his throwing side or all estimates for recovery would get pushed out longer and it would be a major concern.

but just to put a little more fear of the dark side into everyone that surgery on this is always a cure, I'll bring up Scott Rolen's shoulder problems. Also left side. Also thirdbaseman and power hitter. The following is one reminder as to why MerigoldBowling mentioned that treatment in a non-throwing shoulder just might be getting less surgical.

Here's his major injury (from Wikipedia): Note the ex-cub factor

On Tuesday May 10, 2005, Scott Rolen injured his shoulder in a collision with Dodgers first baseman Hee-Seop Choi and was placed on the disabled list two days later. He was expected to be out 4–6 weeks. On May 13, Scott Rolen underwent shoulder surgery - additional MRI revealed tear in labrum. He eventually opted to have surgery on his shoulder, rather than attempt to let it heal on its own and return for the playoffs. He returned to full-time duties in 2006

So it was surgery on a torn labrum (note the report says it was a small labral tear). Somewhat different than the anatomy in full dislocaton. Surgery in this area continues to improve...but

http://tinyurl.com/r3qazc

Things did not go well in 2007 for Rolen. He was placed on the 15-day disabled list on August 31, 2007 because of his recurring left shoulder problems. Then on September 11, Rolen had season-ending shoulder surgery "for the removal of scar tissue and a bursectomy and a manipulation of his left (non-throwing) shoulder", according to a release from the team.

on to Toronto (blame it on a LaRussa conflict):

After coming off another stint in the DL in late August, this time for his shoulder, he modified his batting stance by lowering his shoulders and arms by six inches, enabling him to reestablish his offensive power for the season's final month and hitting a couple of home runs at the comfort of less strain on the shoulder, in which he had 3 prior surgeries to correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Rolen

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

Great info Cubster. Looking forward to your full post.

from the sun-times notes...still waiting on Bradley decision. Now it's $2.7M to balance the Freel vs Gathright salaries...and a Z update.
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•  • Zambrano rejoined the Cubs after spending the last two days in Chicago for treatment on his strained left hamstring. He threw long toss before batting practice, told team officials the hamstring is better and is expected to throw a full bullpen session by midweek.

• • Two days after an appeal hearing, the Cubs and outfielder Milton Bradley still haven't been given a decision about whether his two-game suspension for allegedly making contact with an umpire April 16 would be reduced.

• • Baltimore included about $2.7 million in cash in the deal that sent Ryan Freel ($4million this year) to the Cubs for Joey Gathright ($800,000), assuring both payrolls remain the same after the trade (figuring prorated totals).

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/15657...

Paul Noce: 4-6 weeks.

That really blows, but it's not the end of the world.

But to be realistic about this, you got to know the Cards, Brewers, and Reds all said "Cha-ching" when they heard about the Ramirez injury. The NL Central is in play. The Cubs are going to have to step it up and maybe get a little good luck.

Good Point! What these injuries and poor starts by half of the starters have done is brought everyone back into the division. Now it could be a free for all instead of the Cubs taking control early and coasting, like on paper they should have done.

Nothing dejects me quite like an ARam injury. I definitely try not to be one of the Dooooooomtown Rats, but...gah, geez.

I'd also like to extend an unkind word to those who get on ARam for his alleged dogging tendencies, his alleged failure to be a "leader," etc. Memo to those people: the next 4-6 weeks are going to be pretty miserable. Even if Freel somehow Edmondses us (in a good way, in a good way!), the dogging non-leader will be missed.

saw this from kevin goldstein (who covers the minors) in baseball prospectus:

Sleeper alert!

Dan McDaniel, RHP, Cubs (High-A Daytona)
Thursday's stats: 5.2 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 9 K

A 14th-round pick out of a California junior college, the Cubs gave McDaniel a $100,000 bonus to buy him away from a full ride to Oklahoma State, and it's looking like a very sound investment. Working on a changeup as the Cubs convert the big-bodied righty to starting, McDaniel has been flashing a low-90s fastball with excellent late life as well as a power curveball that has limited Florida State League hitters to a miserable .129 average.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?arti...

Let me just say, as I have recently, with the team's BA with RISP below .240, and the great example of the 8th inning bases loaded last night, do you REALLY think that this will improve without A-Ram?

I don't.

Unless there is dramatic improvement from Lee, Soto (who is not the same player as last year - and probably 25lbs heavier), Bradley, and production from Fukudome - it is just not our year.

What Hendry had, as an insurance policy - and a good one - was Mark deRosa. He was paid for, and did his job.

FUCK YOU HENDRY!

I learned this by being forced to watch Grey's Anatomy with my wife.
--------
Hawkeye's disclaimer: I'm not a doctor, but I watch an actor playing a doctor on a soap opera.

They don't have anyone as sinister as Dr. David Hayward on that show.

http://abc.go.com/daytime/allmychildren/index?pn=b...

Honestly, this really doesn't surprise me that much and doesn't worry me that much. The reality is that Hendry built a veteran team this year to survive a weak division (based mostly on strong starting pitching) and use its experience to succeed in the playoffs. I had no visions of winning 100 games or dominating the league. Z, Harden, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, and Bradley have all had injury issues over the past few seasons, this was expected. I anticipate a summer of frustration as the Cubs remain in contention but can't really put things away. The last month of the season then will determine whether they make and succeed in the playoffs, or just miss out or lose early again. If everyone gets healthy and is playing well at the end, things could work out very well this year.

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