Ted Lilly Complains of Knee Pain and Gets His Shoulder Scoped

Ah, another new adventure in Cubbery.

Sorry for missing the day's rampant speculation on Ted Lilly's left pitching shoulder arthroscopy. I was in the OR all day and connecting hip bones to...

So in one hour what can you see during a shoulder scope? Dr. Yokum puts the scope in from the posterior portal, low and behold he sees a caricature of Sean Marshall smiling face on the anterior capsule. He then puts in a Wissinger rod to create an anterior portal and whoa, is that a Tom Gorzellany autograph on his biceps tendon?

As we all remember from a report right here at TCR, the Ted Lilly Chronicles...

Lilly was on the DL as of July 25th after experiencing left shoulder pain that was diagnosed as tendonitis and treated with 3 weeks of rest. In one of the stranger events of the season, he goes on the DL because of his shoulder but because he was going to have to rest his shoulder, he opted to have his knee scoped since it had been acting up for awhile from a torn meniscus. The original plan was for him to tough it out and get the knee scoped after the season but the doctors felt his shoulder pain was a cascade problem stemming from his knee, so the shoulder symptoms changed the gameplan. Lilly did have a shoulder MRI-Arthrogram in July (leading to the DL stint), which was reported to show tendonitis but no structural damage. He returned from the DL on Aug 17 against San Diego and pitched a healthy and strong 6 shutout innings only for the outing to be wasted in one of the more painful losses of the season, courtesy of Kevin Gregg's 4 run ninth inning stint ending with Kyle Blanks walk off HR.

In 2005 with Toronto, Lilly had several DL stints because of left biceps tendonitis which didn't require surgery. His shoulder didn't act up again until around the All-Star break (he was the lone Cub representative last season and didn't get into the game because that is when his shoulder started to ache). 

In the media reports of what Dr. Yokum's procedure found and what he did, we see the terms debridement, washout and cleanup. That doesn't say much really except that some tissue was a bit worn and smoothed off. In this context debridement doesn't refer to removal of dead tissue (just worn tissue, so no maggots were needed) but specific anatomic structures like the biceps attachment to the glenoid/socket or biceps tendon as it enters the shoulder joint, the labrum (fibrous rim of the glenoid/socket) or the rotator cuff aren't specifically mentioned. When they say no structural damage was seen, it means none of the aforementioned items had enough damage to require reattachment. If his problem was biceps tendonitis or minor wear of the rotator cuff tendon (supraspinatus) they might have "cleaned up" these problems without feeling the need to repair or reattach anything. If he did have some signs of inflammation from friction outside the joint, often referred to impingement or bursitis, it's common to reshape the bone that rubs on the cuff (the acromion, which is a part of the shoulder blade/scapula). This is referred to as an acromionplasty and by flattening the front of that bone (it's common to have a curved shape in that area), it opens up the area that rubs on the cuff or biceps tendon where it enters the shoulder joint. Unfortunately, we're not told much from the media reports so I don't know if this was done.  Clearly, this minimalist news is better news than getting reports that he had a capsular shift or tightening (Mark Prior), a labral repair (Angel Guzman, Kerry Wood) or a rotator cuff repair or even a biceps tenodesis  which is a reattaching of the biceps tendon to the upper arm/humerus) and is done when the biceps is severely worn (Curt Schilling's situation which lead to controversy with doctors arguing whether he should have that surgery or not).

In the 6 months from November until late April, there is more than enough time to rehab and recover from a shoulder arthroscopic cleanup without any major structures needing repair. Unless Cubbery intervenes.

Ted Roosevelt Lilly a tough guy so I suspect he'll just do the return to sender thang,  when pitching coach Larry Rothschild sends him the towel drill video. Ultimately we'll know if this surgery worked if it keeps his KNEE from acting up.

Tags: 

Comments

Good write up, Doc. Thanks.

Is it likely the tendinitis inflammation from the July MRI-Arthrogram prevented the doctors from seeing the above issues? Or did the MRI likely reveal exactly these issues which they decided to fix surgically?

I think the MRI-Arthrogram matched what they found at the arthroscopy since neither event has identified any "structural" damage. They didn't think he would need to be arthroscoped back in July and if he did have it scoped then it would have ended his season. The recovery from a knee scope can be obviously quicker. The original plan was to have his knee scoped after the season but it got bumped up when his shoulder started aching too. So the timing on these decisions are factored into how much playing time will the surgery impact, but it's far from the final factor which is usually persisting pain over time (usually months).

The Cubs weren't officially out of the race when Lilly's shoulder-knee combo became an issue and they thought he could get back in a 3 week window of time, which was pretty accurate. If that window was longer he might have needed more time just to do the minor league rehab thing. The Cardinals caught fire in August (while Lilly was on the DL) so his absence did have an adverse affect but he wasn't able to pitch with both problems so the decision at that time became fairly obvious.

There can be other factors pointing to the decision to have surgery including what his shoulder physical exam suggests, but in this case persisting pain in the face of nonsurgical management (anti-inflammatory meds and physical therapy) made Lilly eventually decide to have it scoped. It was still Lilly's decision and these are always shades of gray to this decision. Sometimes these symptoms go away with extended rest (i.e. the off season). If the problem cropped up next year after extended rest then they would have been faced with that decision and it would have interfered with his season more extensively so that's a plus to having it done now. Still there is no guarantee that it won't recur even after him getting an arthroscopy depending on what is causing the inflammation, for example if his shoulder is still impinging.

Royals trade Mark Teahen to White Sox...

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/royals-agree...

Dave Van Dyke on WSCR this am said this is the same surgery that Wood had in 2006 and Prior had in 2008.

Yikes.

Most important question, how is TLFC taking this?

Unfortunately, we're not told much from the media reports
so I don't know if this was done.  Clearly, this minimalist news is
better news than getting reports that he had a capsular shift or
tightening (Mark Prior), a labral repair (Angel Guzman, Kerry Wood) or
a rotator cuff repair or even a biceps tenodesis  which is a
reattaching of the biceps tendon to the upper arm/humerus) and is done
when the biceps is severely worn (Curt Schilling's situation which lead
to controversy with doctors arguing whether he should have that surgery
or not).

considering Wood and Prior had different surgeries, I think Van Dyck is just grouping all shoulder surgeries together...

Probably an AZ Phil question here.....

How does MLB insurance work in regards to injured players (Lilly).

Does insurance cover 100% of Ted's contract if he misses 2010?

Will this esentially give the Cubs an extra 10 million to play with in Free Agency?

Elliot Harris, fellow pervert, stole my question for the new owners regarding a ball girl at Wrigley.

And of course he asks the right Rickett about it.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/quickhits/1865442,C...

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091103&c...

if there's good news is that he's really just had the TJ surgery on his elbow which plenty of pitchers have been able to come back from, looks like he had ankle problems the last year or so that complicated matters..

I can see those reports being extremely effective I am looking hunt commandos in an equatorial jungle or alien life forms in Antartica.

DBags buy out Chad Tracy, put Petit on waivers (claimed by Mariners).

How in the Hell did Hendry miss out on claiming Petit? Was he not injured enough for Hendry's 40 man roster? Will be 25 this year and has great upside. Surely worth a look over Thomas Diamond or Chad Fkn Fox again.

Asleep at the wheel I presume

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/petity...

must be a different Petit out there....

the one claimed by the Mariners gives up a lot of flyballs and has trouble keeping them in the park (13.6% HR/FB rate and 50% of balls hit off him are flyballs)

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4020...

Safeco is a good place for him to try and not suck....

Not claiming he is a Cy Young candidate. But why not take a flyer on a young guy with average plus stuff. He has had some MLB success. He is only 24.

We've resigned Chad Fox 3 times. We've given 3 seperate contracts to Glendon Rusch. We just claimed Thomas Diamond. Petit is a better bet than any of those dudes are. Especially for nothing more than a waiver claim.

Especially with Lilly hurt.

I don't see how the first two have anything to with it, Fox was a reliever with good stuff and guaranteed to give an extra roster spot come playoff time. Rusch's first signing was a late spring training move and then they resigned him thinking he could duplicate it.

Diamond's got good stuff, top prospect stuff, but had TJ surgery which guys come back from all the time and was of course claimed before Petit hit waivers.

I also assume Petit hit waivers because he's out of options.

Glendon Rusch was collecting a check from the cubs from 2004-2007. 4 years 3 contracts.

My point is that not every move needs to be sexy/high dollar. Petit wouldn't hav cost anything to claim and give a ST invite to. He's probably as good a bet as Randy Wells to have a good year next year. Only he was an actual prospect and is 3 years younger.

When money is going to be scarce, why not roll the dice with some guys like Petit. Maybe one of them turns into something.

Or we can stand pat and just assume that everything works out.

well it costs something to claim a player I believe albeit minimal...

Rusch got cut by the Rangers in 2004 in March, Cubs signed him as a free agent (I assume for not much over the league minimum) and then resigned in Nov of '2004 on a 2-yr deal.

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/press_releases/pr...

apparently after 2005, he received another 2-yr extension, had that ugly 2006 along with a blood clot and was cut before 2007. He was due to make $3.25M in 2007.

By Fangraphs value tool he well-exceeded his contracts even with the disaster of 2006 and not pitching in 2007.

as for Petit being an actual prospect, then you should love Thomas Diamond.

but I don't see anything in Petit that makes it much of a travesty, especially if he's out of options.

I just want us to take a more proactive approach.

If we don't have money to spend, then we need to do some tire kicking.

To me, the worst thing possible this offseason is for management to decide

1) Ted Lilly will be fine

2) Randy Wells is a legitimate 3rd starter

3) Wells,Marshall,Gorzy will be an acceptable 3-5 in the rotation.

Especially since we don't have 1 single MLB ready Starter at AAA. Travesty to have a 140 million dollar payroll and absolutely zero SP depth.

Petit is useless unless you want a guy to pitch 200 innings and give up 100 homers.

the guy is king of having really good sub-standard pitching and leaving/hanging too much of it in the zone.

http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/2863

Miles talks about bringing back Harden now...

interesting note on Harden...

had a HR/FB% of 15.4% last year, usually you're around 10% I believe and that's mostly where Harden has been for his career (he's actually been below 10% for his career)..

his K rate didn't change much, so I'd expect a big bounce back year from him if he's not on the DL....

For all the complaints about Rothschild (deserved), Harden was very, very healthy while he was here.

I agree.

I cannot see Hendry going into the season with three number 4 or 5 pitchers, and Z who is a "two" at best.

With that possibility, and the always-thin "good" pitching market out-priced for the Rickett's new budget, it would not be a surprise if Harden finds his way into the Cubs' plans again.

Unfortunately, the Cubs will still not have a "Number One", elite Ace starter on the team.

When I watched the Playoffs this year, the Phillies, Yankees, Cards, and Angels all have one (or two).

I am still so fucking pissed at Hendry for his 100-year deal with Soriano.

Knucklehead Hendry.

Abreu signs 2-yr deal with Angels...

JJ Putz will be a FA, another broken wing buy low candidate...

$19 million for two or $27 million for three years on Abreu.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/offense-...

a list of the top 25 seasons for players at various infield positions that excelled offensively and defensively...

Grace, Sandberg , Santo and Stan Hack are on there...

Interesting, although "harmonic mean" is a new one on me, sounding vaguely New Agey. What does it mean?

some fancy way of saying the best balanced seasons...

if all your value came on offense rather than defense, you wouldn't show up on the list or vice-versa....

JJ Putz will be a FA, another broken wing buy low candidate...
---
Thats all the Cubs need is another Putz.

(da da boom)

Old Mike and Mike joke. But if we pick up Putz and the Astros were to pick up Kevin Mench, we could have a Putz pitch to a Mench. Happy Hanukkah everyone!

The following pitchers are available:
Steve Traschel
Glendon Rusch
Chuck Finley
Tom Glavine
Pedro Martinez (now more than ever)

I'm sure I've forgotten a few. Actually, my pipe dream is Lackey. He and Zambrano would probably kill each other though....

Bartolo Colon
(if you can find him)

Also the Cubs could have a good shot at Vincent Padilla.

~cheap laugh~

http://www.soxprospects.com/moreprospects.htm

these guys have the prospects in the 40-60 range after the 2009 season, seems like Cubs couldn't have gotten in on that....

aaronb rant in 3...2...1

odd player for BOS to spend 4+m on.

Hermida made $2.25M last year and had a poor season, doubt he'll double his salary, $3M tops

personally it's a perfect player for Red Sox to take a shot on, low risk-high reward and they saved a lot of money last year...

yeah, but where to play him? ...and is he going to be happy doing bench/injury work if that's his role?

insurance if they don't get Holliday or Bay I assume, Drew's obviously no guarantee to play all the time either, and not like he won't be tradeable again if he becomes disgruntled...

exactly the type of move a big market team should make especially since the prospects didn't seem to exciting...

It all depends on how you view was is going to shake out in arbitration offers. If a lot of arb eligible guys get non-tendered, and Hermida may have been a candidate for that, then the Red Sox may have paid for something they could have gotten for free. I don't think that's the case, but I think I heard yesterday that 22 teams had declines in ticket sales in 2009.

it was just a pre-emptive strike, they'd have to bid against other teams if Marlins non-tendered him and those other teams could have offered Hermida a better shot at a regular gig.

I'm not even a huge Hermida fan or anything, but two lefty relievers low on the prospect totem pole seems like a good deal for a guy with immense, albeit untapped talent. The road splits are intriguing as well....

Anyway, I say good move by the Red Sox, they obviously believe in his talent as he was a possible acquisition for Manny two years back and Red Sox have some money to burn....

Theo Epstein is a helluva smart guy.

But - the Cubs have Jim Hendry!

take notes Jimbo

 "It was a chance to get a guy with unfulfilled potential for a reasonable cost," Epstein said.

ughhhhhh

http://withleather.uproxx.com/2009/11/tim-floyd-hi...

but Tim Floyd does have the honor of being the worst NBA coach ever and did it with the Bulls...

anyway, L.A. casino, girl fight, Tim Floyd...you know you wanna watch..

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/p...

Tim Lincecum busted for possession of marijuana.

Never saw that one coming...

...and he deserves to be busted for driving around smoking. take that crap back to the mansion, kid.

Well - the Bay Area does have some of the best weed coming down from Humboldt County it is said.

sho-nuff.

driving around smoking it is pretty damn irresponsible, though. too many people take "smoking and driving" less seriously than they should, imo.

Better than drinking or being pilled out. It's legal out there anyway.

Make that smoking and driving and speeding. Not smart.

But they should just legalize it anyway.

Being high off Marijuana is just as bad as driving drunk, your still impaired and can't operate a motor vehicle properly.

I dunno. Some people (not me, of course) found themselves to be more alert drivers post-puff. They said it was pretty incredible how observant they could be all of a sudden.

Coincidentally, I think there should be a 1-beer law that makes it legal to drink one beer on your way home from the liquor store.

I hearby nominate Jumbo for President!!!!

I appreciate the support. It is probably proof that I am an alcoholic because I truly want that law. I would legalize and tax a few other things and would banish Congress to stuffy side rooms forever.

EDIT

Especially the House. And especially the Senate. And all Congressional hearings, baseball related or otherwise.

Comparing driving stoned to driving drunk is like comparing apples to shoelaces. People BLACK OUT while drunk. Driving stoned is a piece of cake as long as you don't have to drive too fast or there aren't a bunch of crazy lights around.

apples are mostly red or green, shoelaces are black, brown, red or white...so red apples with red shoelaces would be good for Regis Philbin...vote for Jumbo.

I didn't mention that my house is a 2 minute drive from the liquor store.

Recent comments

Subscribe to Recent comments
The first 600 characters of the last 16 comments, click "View" to see rest of comment.
  • four winds field is awesome. it's crazy how minor league parks have "grown up" since the 80s/90s and that park was one of the late-80s models that showed a low-capacity ballpark could look like you're at something other than a highschool baseball game.

    crunch 46 min 29 sec ago view
  • On another topic....I returned to South Bend last night for the 2nd time this season (still haven't tried either the deep-fried mac & cheese sandwich nor "The Porknado", as the drive home is over an hour and that could get ugly), and was pleasantly surprised to find D. Underwood pitching in a rehab start. He looked good -- although, to be fair, these are low-A hitters -- fastball consistently at 94-95 (if the SB scoreboard is to be believed -- several pitches were clocked in the 30s...) and with good location.

    billybucks 1 hour 54 min ago view
  • he gains nothing, no advantage, no saving of resources, nothing...there is not a cost/benefit tradeoff...him letting the running game go on around him for others to control isn't gaining him an advantage elsewhere. it's putting him at a disadvantage even if it's not cashed in with a run.

    crunch 4 hours 34 min ago view
  • And out of respect for the rest of TCR, I'm done on this. I'm sure I'm not the only one in the other camp, but time to let it go. (Until the next Lester start. I kid.)

    #baseballtalk

    Tito 4 hours 38 min ago view
  • He is putting himself at a disadvanage. But how much of one relative to the rest of his game? He's not Justin Germano -- he's inarguably one of the best SPs in baseball, issue or not. It would be more of thing to discuss ad nauseum if it constantly caused him to give up runs and lose games. But it doesn't.

    #baseballtalk

    Tito 4 hours 47 min ago view
  • shouting down my points about lester with "well, it didn't hurt" is like saying it doesn't matter if a guy starts out walking 3 guys every inning as long it's followed by a K and a double play.

    it's like elevating ERA and wins to a high level while ignoring what it took to get there.

    crunch 4 hours 53 min ago view
  • I'm asking how much it has hurt Lester and the Cubs this year. Do you have that answer?

    I legitimately don't recall you answering that quesion, apart from the condescending silliness you just posted. So if you did answer specifically about the impact of Lester's issue, I'd like to re-read it. Thanks.

    #baseballtalk

    Tito 5 hours 6 min ago view
  • if runner = on base and pitcher = j.lester then lead = large

    if lead = large then probability of extra base on following hit > average of mean

    okay, enough of that silliness...

    ...you can read more on the thread i copy/pasted this from the last time you decided you needed to talk to me about me.

    crunch 5 hours 13 min ago view
  • Thank you for your answer.

    #baseballtalk

    Tito 5 hours 17 min ago view
  • bless your heart.

    crunch 5 hours 18 min ago view
  • I don't recall you answering my question about quantifying how it has hurt Lester and the Cubs this season, apart from one guy scoring on a sac fly. Can you direct me to your answer? Thanks.

    #baseballtalk

    Tito 5 hours 22 min ago view
  • Lester's personal catcher has an .809 OPS.

    #baseballtalk

    Tito 5 hours 26 min ago view
  • we already has this asinine discussion. you didn't like the answer. there's already an answer above you can apply about how a guy goes from 1st base to home on a sac fly that included him stealing 3rd while lester watched from the mound. the fact that the cubs bats, 100% independent of that situation, scored some runs invalidates it as an issue to you. i find that stupid. we will not get anywhere with this. you know we will not get anywhere with this...because we already had this asinine discussion.

    #circularlogic

    crunch 5 hours 27 min ago view
  • it's not about SB...it never was.

    jake arrieta being slow to the plate isn't comparable to jon lester not throwing to any base. how the runners read off arrieta isn't anything similar to what a runner is reading off lester.

    maybe arrieta could use a personal catcher solely to control his running game...but i doubt it's that important.

    crunch 5 hours 30 min ago view
  • Can you quantify how this has hurt Lester/the Cubs this season?

    #baseballtalk

    Tito 5 hours 31 min ago view
  • Is WISCGRAD still around? Here's a project for him or anyone else who would be interested...

    Lester's allowed 22 SBs. How many of those have scored and how many games did the Cubs lose due to them?

    #baseballtalk

    Tito 5 hours 37 min ago view