Dawson Makes the Hall

In quite a shocker, the only player elected to the Hall of Fame today was Andre Dawson with 77.9%. Bert Blyleven just missed at 74.2% as did Roberto Alomar at 73.7%. Other former Cubs were Lee Smith (47.3%), Fred McGriff(21.5%), Eric Karros (0.4%), Todd Zeile(0) and bench coach Alan Trammell (22.4%).

I gave my thoughts earlier on the Hall of Fame and everyone seems surprised that Dawson was the only one to make it. Yes, his OBP is woeful by Hall of Fame standards, and I certainly wouldn't have been too upset if he never made it. But he did pass most of my other Hall of Fame tests: awards, dominance, and a certain level of overall counting statistics.

The next question will be if he goes in as a Cub or an Expo. I'm guessing the Expos as that's the picture they used for the article on their site and he did play 5 more seasons with Montreal. The numbers aren't that big a difference, an .801 OPS with Montreal, .834 with the Cubs. He was certainly a far more popular player once he joined the big market Cubs and won his MVP with them. On the other hand, he won 6 of his 8 Gold Gloves as an Expo along with 3 of his 4 Silver Slugger Awards and the Rookie of the Year along with two second place MVP finishes.

Congrats to the Hawk!!

Tags: 
Hall of Fame
Andre Dawson
Submitted by Rob G. on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 1:19pm
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Comments

Submitted by Paul Noce
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 1:23pm

Someone voted for Eric Karros? WTF?

Submitted by JohnT
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 1:36pm

And yet almost a quarter of the voters left Dawson off their ballot. This voting is a joke.

Submitted by Tito
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 1:51pm

David Segui got a vote.

Submitted by Mike Vail
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:33pm

If you can't be bothered to vote or give the H.O.F your
current contact info., your vote should be taken away.
I can't believe Alomar isn't in. I feel bad for Twins fans
who have to hear BB cry another year about this.

Gee, I wonder if the Hawk got Joe Morgan's vote.......

Submitted by jacos
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:39pm

" I feel bad for Twins fans
who have to hear BB cry another year about this"

What about us and Santo?

Submitted by Mike Wellman
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 1:35pm

Let's all bow [a la the bleacherites]in Dawson's general direction. On to Santo next year! Coming on the heels of Iowa's O-Bowl win last night, a good week for Hawks...

Submitted by Jackstraw
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 2:40pm

...a good week for Hawks...

Blackhawks 2-0 so far this week, too.

Submitted by jacos
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 1:39pm

I believe the player has some input if it's not outrageous(ie Boggs as Ray), so with that in mind and the money (colluted as it where) the Cubs gave him and the noterity I believe he will go in as a Cub.

Submitted by Paul Noce
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:12pm

From Bruce Levine:

"The Hall of Fame will decide whether Dawson wears a Cubs or Expos hat on his Hall of Fame plaque. Dawson has already told me his preference would be wearing a Cubs hat, and you would have to think that because the Expos are now defunct that Dawson may get his wish."

http://espn.go.com/chicago/columns/blog/_/pos...

Submitted by billybucks
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 1:44pm

Great photo of the Hawk -- pre-steroids era baseball.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 1:48pm

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stori...

says they want to give Freese a chance to win job, but they are "intrigued" by Tejada if he's willing to move to 3b.

Submitted by artskoe
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 2:04pm

#2 best Cub in a blue ribbon belt! Conrats to The Hawk!

Submitted by The Real Neal
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 2:16pm

That's pretty cool, and he'll get his own speech since no one else got elected.

Alomar in the penalty box for a year because of his spitting incident, I guess, and Byleven will finally make it next year.

Submitted by Stevens
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 2:27pm

There's an umpire and an exec going in this year too. Do they make speeches?

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:48pm

yes they all get speeches, and it's manager Whitey Herzog and umpire Doug Harvey.

Fun question, will Lou Piniella be enshrined as a manager?

currently 14th in wins and a .521 winning percentage. All but 6 managers in the top 21 in wins are in the Hall. The exceptions are 4 active managers((LaRussa, Cox, Torre and Piniella), Gene Mauch (below .500 winning percentage), Ralph Houlk (15th in wins, 3 playoffs, .513%, 2 world series).

If Lou manages just this season, he'll stay at 14th in wins, if he manages two more seasons and can average 61 wins, he'll jump to 11th.

Submitted by John Beasley
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:49pm

If he only averages 61 wins, he won't last two more seasons.

Submitted by jacos
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:52pm

Cubs win WS while he's manager- Yes
If not-No

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:17pm

well if he does win a WS, I agree that he'll definitely get in...

not sure about the flipside though, 5-10 years from now they'll just see the wins and the playoff appearances.

Submitted by Stevens
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:35pm

Those 116 wins in Seattle will count for extra. I think he's in.

Submitted by John Beasley
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:54pm

I'm sure this is just awkwardly worded, but Lou has won a World Series.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:19pm

meant if he wins another World Series

Submitted by Sweet Lou
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:28pm

***Blatant Plug Warning***

That's an interesting question. I wrote a blog post about that very topic a while back.

http://cubsnotebook.com/is-lou-pinella-a-hall...

If you don't want to read the post, the bottom line is that no manager in history with at least 1,300 wins (Piniella has 1,784) has not made it into the HOF, provided they've made at least two trips to the World Series, winning at least one. Piniella has only taken one team to the World Series, which he won. He needs one more trip to be a shoe-in.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:32pm

that seems to be missing Ralph Houk though who is not in the Hall of Fame according to BR.com

3 WS appearances, 2 WS wins, 1619 wins

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:34pm

didn't realize Cubs Notebook was yours, I recall your Cubs Cafe days and thought you had stopped blogging..

Submitted by Sweet Lou
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:47pm

I did for a long time, but missed it.

Submitted by DavidP
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 2:26pm

Dawson deserved it, but not nearly as much as Lee Smith deserved it.

Smith's ommission is almost as bad as that of Santo.

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 2:27pm

r.alomar not being a 1st round selection is mindblowing.

Submitted by Dusty Baylor
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 2:30pm

Agreed Crunch....you'd have thought he spit on the Pope or something?

Submitted by jacos
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 2:33pm

How much might be homophobia?

Submitted by Dr. aaron b
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:00pm

Or the AIDS rumors?

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:20pm

it's most likely just people looking at the numbers and going "meh"...and those 5 or so who "turned in" blank ballots (way to go guys...all you had to do was put a piece of paper in an envelope and stamp it before deadline).

his numbers aren't mind-blowing, but he owned 2nd base defensive (no doubt) and offensively (not counting jeff kent) for a decade+.

Submitted by jacos
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:30pm

"and those 5 or so who "turned in" blank ballots (way to go guys..."

Chicago's very own dick head, Jay Mariotti.

Submitted by Sweet Lou
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:47pm

Why is Marrioti voting for the HOF? Was he ever a baseball writer? If so, how long ago was that?

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 6:31pm

http://bases.nbcsports.com/2010/01/jay-mariot...

the usual, I'm Jay Mariotti, look at me schtick...

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:08pm

fwiw, Alomar and the ump became pretty good friends...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/ba...

Submitted by Andrew
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 2:38pm

I'm happy for The Hawk, but it's too bad that Trammel continues to get dissed as much as he does. HOF voters have no fucking clue what they're doing.

I know I shouldn't really care, but I REALLY hope Dawson goes in as a Cub. Does it make a difference that there's no real Expo fans anymore?

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:36pm

Ryno had to wait 3 years, Alomar can at least wait one more.

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:47pm

hell, ryno might not be in the HOF if he didn't un-retire and put in those last 2 half-assed seasons. imagine where he'd be without those 250 or so extra hits.

alomar not going 1st ballot isn't world-stopping shocking, but it's a little surprising.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:52pm

http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN

Yanks and Mets aren't in the mix. As I mentioned earlier, Jim Bowden on XM radio said the Marlins think they'll have him signed by the weekend. Expect a deal in the $20M range, not sure on the years though.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:58pm

http://muskat.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/01/16...

that should be neat...Hendry will spend the entire convention standing right next to him so he doesn't get boo'd.

Submitted by Aisle 424
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:19pm

Out of habit, he'll give Andre a three year contract and a no-trade clause.

Submitted by Ryno
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 7:40pm

*high five*

Submitted by Stevens
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 12:00am

And that's after Andre hands him another blank check.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 3:59pm

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/01/...

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:05pm

don't blame him for not saying, but he should go in as an expo, imo.

i'm still amused by how boston fan's ex man-crush wade boggs became trash to them by 1- playing for the yanks 2- attempting to sell his HOF influence (sup gary carter and mets?) to TB for financial consideration to sway the HOF into letting him go in as a DRay.

Submitted by jacos
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:07pm

Fisk played more games as White Sox then a Red Sox.
Went in as BoSox.

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:10pm

yeah, they allow players to plead their case for either/or if they care to.

i just think dawson's performance is heavily tipped (and almost twice the playing time) toward the expos.

Submitted by The Real Neal
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:07pm

When Dawson was a HoF calibre player, it sure as hell wasn't with the Cubs, and it's not like he's been a hanger on like Williams and Santo.

Submitted by Chifan
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 12:22am

is because without the national exposure he got out of playing here, would he have been elected today? I mean look at Raines he had a great career and cant break the one-third of the vote barrier. If Raines had played the prime of his career in any major US market he would be alot closer to the hall, if not in it by now. Also with him being the only BWAA inductee it make the powers to be in Cooperstown more likely to put him in as a Cub to drive up interest from Cub fans to enshrinement weekend that could somewhat tempered by him going in as an Expo. Though I think the whole hat thing should be placed to rest. What if Schilling gets in, what hat does he wear, D-backs or Red Sox? If he gets in its for his work in the post season but his more memorable playoff runs were with Boston even if stats wise Arizona was his better stop. or better yet what if Sheffield were to get in? He never had longer than a 4 and a half year stay with one team, though he did win a World Sries in his Marlin run, you could make the case his Dodger years were better.

Submitted by Doug Dascenzo
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 9:12am

Agreed. It would be silly (from an interest perspective) to put him in as an Expo. I highly doubt there's an Expos blog out there with all these people sincerely happy his election.

I think the same thing can be said about Fisk. If he never hits that famous home run with the BoSox where he seemingly wills it to stay fair, I think he goes in as a WSox. But for anyone outside Chicago, that's his most memorable moment (or I guess it could be my age - 29).

Submitted by jacos
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 9:39am

Sutter was with the Cubs longer then the Cards.

Submitted by Doug Dascenzo
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 12:05pm

That wasn't my point at all. I don't think he was remembered more as a Cub.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:07pm

http://homerderby.com/archives/5062

players that didn't get one vote on the ballot

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:15pm

won't be giving Randy Johnson's HOF introduction

http://jeffpearlman.com/?p=4398

I have nothing but negative thoughts for Randy Johnson, a brilliant pitcher but a pathetic human being. I covered baseball for a good chunk of time. I had direct access to such unpleasant men as Will Clark, John Rocker, Barry Bonds, Arthur Rhodes. But nobody—and I mean absolutely nobody—possessed the pure dismissive cruelty of Randy Johnson.

Submitted by jacos
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:22pm

He really loved that bird.

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:05pm

i care a lot jeff pearlman....we all care a lot.

go back to your f'n hugbox and let the rest of us watch some baseball, not the reality TV that is covering a sportswriter's job.

yeesh...are they handing out awards the past few years for bitchy sportswriter personal-feelings-about-players articles?

these articles are increasingly being crapped out and they all have one thing in common...a lack of any specifics. no, i don't doubt pearlman, but if you're gonna stir up a hornet's nest to prove something at least show me who got stung and how badly.

there's lot of shitty people in baseball. some fight animals for sport, some beat on their spouses, some love picking on others like they're still in highschool being kings of the block...meh.

jeff kent's not on his list...just saying.

Submitted by The Real Neal
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:21pm

Who the fuck is Jeff Pearlman? He seems to have written four books of which I've never heard, all of them focusing on negative aspects of sports.

Sports writers, and whatever this guy describes himself as really need to get it into their heads that they're not the social police. Thin skinned assholes who think they're the only ones who have to deal with jerks in real life - while getting paid to watch sporting events.

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:25pm

his claim to fame is that rocker article...which made many MLB players no longer a fan of his...which is where some of his "omg these players are jerks" source is coming from.

whether rocker deserved to be outted or not it made a lot of players angry at pearlman having access to their workplace even though they had to tolerate him.

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:23pm

btw...it's worth mentioning that many in MLB turned on pearlman after his rocker article where things were supposed to be off-the-record.

he needs to get over being pissed on after pissing on someone else...whether he deserved it or not.

THAT is why will clark is a jerk to pearlman...not because will clark is a natural born jerk.

actions have consequences...whether you think it's "fair" or not. welcome to the lockerroom, buddy.

Submitted by Sweet Lou
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 6:06pm

But when you think of Randy Johnson, I urge you not to remember the 6-foot-10 pitching giant, but the little man who inhabited his body.

That was a weird and incredbly petty article. Okay, Johnson treated you badly. I get that you don't think he's a nice person. But why would you try to recruit other people to dislike him just because he treated you (A guy we don't know) poorly? That was pathetic.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:21pm

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php...

Cot's Contracts is going to move over there, certain to be 100 times slower and more difficult to find information

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:07pm

lame.

hopefully the dude putting it together gets some nice perks (or pay) for it, though.

Submitted by Paul Noce
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:07pm

...and probably only viewable with a BP subscription. Bastards.

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:11pm

"Yup, that's Jeff, and Cot's Contracts is coming over to the Baseball Prospectus family. The product as you all know and love will now be hosted at baseballprospectus.com with a variety of visual improvements, and will remain a free product"

Submitted by Paul Noce
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 12:03am

Excellent...(rubbing hands together).

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:10pm

"Some specific projects our entire stats team is working on (but are hardly limited to) include:
New, "from the ground up" defensive measurements"

the yearly "forget what we did, this is better" defensive update. is UZR update 20 out yet? ARM version 109? or they rolling out USHANNHAKJXS as the best thing since the last best thing that wasn't good at all?

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:25pm

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/1...

Bagwell's the biggest name next season and I doubt he'll make it on the first ballot. Palmeiro is on there too, but that's not gonna happen right now.

2013 ballot is going to be fun: Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Craig Biggio, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa, and Mike Piazza.

Submitted by Stevens
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:42pm

Add Maddux, Glavine and Frank Thomas for 2014. I wouldn't be surprised if these three are elected before any of the big names off the 2013 ballot.

2014 also adds Jeff Kent and Mike Mussina.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:48pm

Biggio gets in on the first ballot, 3,000 hits is a guarantee still and would be a hardy F.U. by the writers to the alleged 'roid users.

Schilling's gonna be a real fun case.

Submitted by The Real Neal
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:23pm

It's always amazed me how Biggio and Bagwell get a pass on 'roids accusations. I'd be surprised if that talk doesn't come up a lot more when their names come up for the HoF.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:55pm

both had pretty consistent home run numbers throughout their careers and as far as I know, not a lot of back acne like Piazza.

did Canseco ever tag either of them? He seems to be right on just about anyone he has mentioned.

Submitted by Dusty Baylor
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 6:51pm

Uh..I'm going to say that Biggio's numbers jumped after 6 seasons
1989- 13 HR
1990- 4 HR
1991- 4 HR
1992- 6 HR
1993- 21 HR
1994- 6 HR
1995- 22 HR
1996- 15 HR

And on....now was it steroids? Maturing physically at age 27? Eh..whatever..lol

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 6:59pm

I'd go with no longer catching myself and it was after his first 4 seasons, the time and age that most players are growing into their power.

Rickey Henderson was on 'roids too as well as Sandberg by this line of reasoning.

Submitted by The Real Neal
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 7:13pm

Sammy Sosa never touched the stuff by your line of reasoning.

The guy got bigger, stronger and faster. The numbers jump didn't happen the year he switched full time to 2nd. At age 26 he lead the league in PAs and had 41 XBH's. The next year he had 67 XBH's.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 7:52pm

Sammy Sosa never touched the stuff by your line of reasoning.

Sammy's head exploded and had this written about him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/sports/base...

let me know when there's one about Biggio.

The guy got bigger, stronger and faster. The numbers jump didn't happen the year he switched full time to 2nd

it took him a year to rejuvenate his body maybe...maybe not.

would I be shocked to learn that he did 'roids? not exactly, but I'm an innocent until it's pretty obvious he's guilty kind of guy.

haven't ever heard much about Biggio, his progression seemed pretty natural to me

Submitted by jacos
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 8:46pm

I don't think Biggio

Bagwell looked thinner like I rod the ST they said they were testing .

Biggio has to be the worst 3000 hit hitter.

Submitted by The Real Neal
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 7:59am

Hopefully by then the full list will come out. What's the HoF going to do if they let a player in who is on that list, while keeping others out? Like I said, every piece of circumstantial evidence that was mentioned about these other guys applies to Biggio and Bagwell.

Submitted by Dusty Baylor
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 9:42pm

Growing into power i could get....leaving catching? Fro steals sure....but gaining power?

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 10:18pm

and how much power did he gain? he hit 13 his first season as catcher in 134 games and 15 in '96 in 162 with various peaks and valleys in between.

not the first inconsistent early to mid 20's player to ever play...

Submitted by Dusty Baylor
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 10:17am

Ok...but 3 seasons in a row of 4, 4, 6?

That's a big power outage Rob.

Submitted by The Real Neal
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 11:44am

Don't just look at the HR's, look at the XBH's. When he went down to 6 one year, he also lead the league in doubles and stolen bases.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 11:52am

so your theory then is he hit 13 his rookie season, stopped taking 'roids, stopped hitting for power, then hit the 'roids again for just one season, stopped and was back on them again for the rest of his career?

Submitted by Dusty Baylor
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 12:47pm

Nope. My point was that he looked for quite a few seasons, like he had not much power at all.

TRN, your point is valid about XBH. Only his first few seasons:
1989 21 2B, 13 HR
1990 24 2B, 4 HR
1991 23 2B, 4 HR
1992 32 2B, 6 HR
1993 41 2B, 21 HR. Ok...so he finally gets some pop at age 27.
Steroids? I never thought so...please show me where I said "Craig Biggio took steroids."
My original statement was...."Now was it steroids? Maturing physically at age 27? Eh..whatever..lol."

I then said "Growing into power i could get....leaving catching? For steals sure....but gaining power?"

Submitted by John Beasley
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 1:08pm

Inge, Brandon

Submitted by The Real Neal
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 2:29pm

And in '93 he goes from a poor base stealer to the best in baseball.

Raise your hand if you can think of a second basemen who went from being a lower power, medium stolen base guy to hitter who hit more HR's, lead the league in doubles and became a premium base stealer. Who's that describe? Brian Roberts. I guess he just grew into it as well.

Submitted by Rob Richardson
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 2:34pm

"Raise your hand if you can think of a second basemen who went from being a lower power, medium stolen base guy to hitter who hit more HR's, lead the league in doubles and became a premium base stealer."

Ryne Sandberg?

Submitted by The Real Neal
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 2:51pm

Correct, except that Sandberg was never a great doubles hitter and didn't really improve his stolen bases numbers.

Submitted by Rob Richardson
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 3:03pm

"Correct, except that Sandberg was never a great doubles hitter and didn't really improve his stolen bases numbers."

Sorry in your right in 1984 he lead the lead in triples not doubles (he was third in doubles). As for stolen bases he went from 37 SB in 1983 to 54 in 1985 (4th in the league). While he only had 32 in 1984, that might be because he had all those doubles and triples and didn't need to steal.

In the end I think you will have a hard time showing that Biggio used PED based.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 2:40pm

hmm, in '92, his first year at 2b he had 38 sb's against 15 CS's, then had a poor year at 15 SB with 17 CS's and then in '94 really became efficient.

I don't see what's odd about a player getting older and learning to read pitchers better, even happened to Rickey Henderson.

The stories I recall back then were Biggio (all 5-11" of him) was getting worn down catching (although considered a very good prospect) and thus the move to 2b to prolong his career.

Submitted by Dusty Baylor
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 2:44pm

I agree Rob, that moving to 2B would keep him from getting worn down, which would help his stolen base totals.

Submitted by The Real Neal
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 2:50pm

That would also help his batting. Maybe he had a tell, maybe he had a new coach, maybe he took steroids. Who knows? But the evidence that convinced so many in the court of public opinion is right there for him as well.

He also got to use the elbow guard fulcrum, which probably was a big part of Bonds's late career success.

Submitted by Dr. aaron b
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 9:17am

I always suspected Bagwell. He jumped from 15ish homers per year to a perennial 40+ guy pretty much over night.

Submitted by Stevens
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 12:36am

Yeah, Biggio and Piazza are both probably in 1st ballot, but like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if they aren't for some reason. I thought Robby Alomar was a first-ballot guy, after all. But he didn't have 3000 knocks. Biggio's really going to benefit from his sticking-around years.

In fact, all this decade (2000-2007), he hit 266/338/428. Not terrible, but they don't look like HOF numbers. Yet that's over 5000 plate appearances and almost 1200 hits.

His real criminal years, though, were the last two. 249/296/402 over 1162 PAs. Covers 265 of his precious 3060 hits, which puts him in Alomar territory. But Alomar had 3 really bad years at the end, too. 262/331/367 over 1443 PAs, covering 335 hits. So there you go.

I think the writers will push Bagwell back a year and he and Biggio will go in together. Which is fine. I'll be happy if Alomar goes in next year first. I may be wrong, but I think Alomar is the superior 2nd baseman, and I'd prefer him not having to share the stage, so to speak, with Biggio and his big 3000-hit hunt.

Submitted by Paul Noce
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:08pm

I'll make it easy. They're all cheaters, so no, no, no, no, no, and no.

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 4:37pm

http://espn.go.com/chicago/columns/blog/_/pos...

decision on top choice by end of the month, will negotiate with them while keeping the other city on stand-by if they can't work it out...

Submitted by dc60124
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 5:52pm

congrats, hawk !

i'm thinkin' this is the highlight of the off-season.

Submitted by crunch
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 6:28pm

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is it spring yet?

Submitted by Rob G.
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 6:54pm

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_s...

cool slideshow of Dawson historical photos

Submitted by nohit
on Wed, 01/06/2010 - 9:47pm

Yay Hawk! Happy for you, dude. Thanks for the memories!

Submitted by John Beasley
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 8:35am

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4...

I guess coaches don't have to take drug tests. At least we know, in Tony's case, there's no Breathalyzer.

Submitted by MikeC
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 8:46am

I think the interesting case will be Barry Bonds. Alot of sports writers were willing to totally dismiss his connections to Balco, his documented steroid use, and his criminal proceedings just cuz he broke the HR record.

I think Bonds makes it as a first ballot HOFer, and makes the whole voting process a complete hypocritical circle jerk.

Ohh were gonna keep McGwire and a bunch of other guys out, but the single most connected guy to steroid abuse? He will get a free pass.

Maybe that will be enough to exclude the writers and just make members of the HOF as the sole decider. There are a few pretty vocal HOF members who would never allow Bonds in, Hank Aaron being one of them.

Submitted by Dr. aaron b
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 9:21am

If Bonds doesn't make it, then the HOF is a complete sham.

Unfortunately far too many of the guys who vote are sanctimonious assholes.

Submitted by jacos
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 9:26am

I believe Bonds was a HOFer before he started juicing.

Submitted by John Beasley
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 9:30am

Ditto ARod

Submitted by dcf
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 11:06am

The issue is, you can't figure out when anybody juiced or didn't.

Submitted by Ryno
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 11:31am

The thing is, if someone is cheating... and you KNOW they cheated, how do you give them baseball's highest honor?

A case could be made that MLB has been extremely soft on juicers. Why not allow it, then? The ambiguity bothers me.

Submitted by Sweet Lou
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 11:45am

I have struggled with this issue since it reared its ugly head. I was angry at first and have mellowed over time.

There's no way we'll ever know who was juicing and who wasn't. In the end, I look at the whole era as juiced batters hitting against juiced pitchers. I have no doubt that not all players were taking PEDs, but I don't (and can't) know who did and who didn't, so I assume everyone did. That way, the playing field was even and I can accept the perfomances that occured during the era.

Every era has had its problems and some players benefitted from each of these problems. I'm no longer willing to deny HOF admission to players like Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, etc based on the fact that I think they used PEDs. It was just another era.

Plus, we like to call PED users "cheaters," but were they really. Baseball didn't have a policy against many of the substances that were being used, so did they really cheat? What they did may be morally, ethically, or even legally wrong, but they didn't break any rules in place in MLB at the time.

Submitted by Stevens
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 12:33pm

Legitimate ethical questions Sweet Lou, and ones I've struggled with. Moreover, how can pills and shots be banned for their performance-enhancing benefits, while surgery, cortisone and contacts are allowed despite their performance-enhancing benefits?

The issue seems to be more the legality of the substance than the performance-enhancing capability. That is, if steroids were simply vitamins, no one would complain. But they aren't. They're illegal. So why not just let the law deal with it? Why judge baseball players ex-post-facto when no one made a stink about it at the time?

Anyway, I'd put them all in the hall as examples of the best players of their era. If you want to call them the best cheaters of their era, that's fine too.

Submitted by Dr. aaron b
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 1:39pm

I've tried to make the point before that athletes today are just much better than the athletes in the day of most of these HOF voting sportswriters.

Weight-training, Supplements, Sports nutritionists, Specially designed workout routines have all changed the way that Joe Player has looked.

Even the guys not taking "PEDs" are likely taking enhancers that are right on the borderline of what legal and banned are.

That's basically what Balco was to begin with. A lab that stayed on the cutting edge of legal/illegal.

The line is just too blurry to draw. Instead we have guys who use personal prejudice to keep guys out, with whom they have axes to grind.

Submitted by dcf
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 4:35pm

As to the MLB, I think the owners were likely all too willing to turn a blind eye to it due to the money the offense was putting in their pockets, particularly following the strike year in '94. Homers put fannies in the seats. Only after some of the seamier stories became public did the owners, like Captain Renault in Casablanca, express their shock that steroids were being used.

Submitted by crunch
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 5:03pm

they did in the 70s and 80s...the story blew up in the late 90s, but this stuff is old news.

aside from printed stuff that go back to the 60s/70s detailing the use of roids in baseball as very casual stuff...tom house, the pitching coach and loudmouth excuse-maker, spoke on this a few years ago and made a few enemies even though his lockerroom days with the pros are decades gone.

worst kept secret in baseball...right reggie jackson?

Submitted by Rob G.
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 11:58am

If I was a betting man, I'd say Arod gets in before Bonds and the whole house of cards falls down. I have a feeling the writers are going to take the opportunity to fuck Bonds over every way they can.

Although Ivan Rodriguez might be the first name from this list voted in since Arod will still be playing for awhile.

http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/bse-list-s...

Submitted by Rob G.
on Thu, 01/07/2010 - 12:52pm

btw, that link is a pretty cool resource if you want to know who's been pegged so far on steroid allegations, gives great details on where the reports came from so far...

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