Would You Do It?

totally random trade thought if baseball was run on a PS3...

If you were the newly minted gonna-be-totally-awesome-and-do-everything-my-way GM, would you trade Starlin Castro for Jason Heyward? (Heyward is 7 months older than Castro).

I'm about 40/60 on that idea with a slight preference to keep Castro.

But what about Castro/McNutt for Heyward/Teheran?

the plot thickens...I'd have to say yes as Cub GM, although I imagine some romantic Cubs fans couldn't part ways with Darlin' Starlin.


Well if it was really an option...I'd be concerned with filling the hole at SS. Aren't outfielders easier to find?
That's an interesting one Rob..

probably why I wouldn't do the straight up swap, throw in Teheran though and you perk my ears. That's a possible top of the rotation guy that's ready next season.

Cubs have nothing but SS's in the system too and the slight possibility Castro won't be staying there.

Who are the other shortstops in the system? Lake is a third baseman, Watkins is a second baseman, and Flaherty and LeMahieu haven't been playing much shortstop.

If we still had Hak-Ju Lee, then trading Castro and McNutt for Heyward and Teheran (and slotting Barney into SS for 2012) might make some sense. Right now there isn't a shortstop in the system (that I see at least) that either has a relatively high ceiling or is within a couple of years of the majors.

move Barney over if you believe AZ Phil about his defense for now, Flaherty at 2B maybe.

don't forget Castro was a 2.2 WAR (standard caveats about WAR implied) player last year cause of his defense. If you have faith it'll get better, sure, if you don't, he's gonna be moving positions anyway and becomes less valuable.

LeMahieu isn't terrible and still just 23, Marwin Gonzalez sounds like he can play defense. Baez down the road.

depends what you think of Heyward of course, down year last year and all, but think he certainly fits a more saber-friendly mindset for the future. It's like getting a left-handed hitting Justin Upton after a down year...well it could be.

Never know for sure how these things shake out.

But imagine Teheran/Heyward for Castro/McNutt, that's $2 for a $1.75 imo and those type of incremental improvements are what it's gonna take to get better, sooner.

I also think with the lack of SP pitching available this offseason, Cubs could easily get back more for Garza than they paid.

I also think with the lack of SP pitching available this offseason, Cubs could easily get back more for Garza than they paid.

Who did the Cubs get Garza from again? Aren't the Rays the new A's when it comes to organizational models?

Even if the demand for Garza is higher than it was last off-season, something I am dubious about, the Hendry-Type GM's are a dieing breed.Which GM with a top-10 farm system is going to trade four of his top 15 prospects for Garza, now that Hendry is gone?

Which GM with a top-10 farm system is going to trade four of his top 15 prospects for Garza, now that Hendry is gone

how about just 1-2 actual good major league players that are closer to the majors? Cubs traded 2 good players in Archer and Lee, could they do better than that? I think it's possible.

Montero and Baneulos(?) for example...

granted I know shit about the Yanks system, but I'll take a couple of guys off BA top 100 list over 4 guys from an organizational top 15 list that has just 1 on the top 100.

This just in: Fergie Jenkins to Texas for Bill Madlock and Vic Harris.

So the Cubs should get two guys back like Brandon Guyer?

Just out of curiousity, what would have have to have done this year to be considered a good player?

if the Cubs move Garza it would have to be a top 10 prospect type, another top 100 guy near the majors and maybe another B-/Guyer level type prospect.

that's better than what they gave up imo...I know you disagree and we can leave it that.

maybe Garza/Castro for Teheran, Heyward, Freeman + Minor

and no I'm sure they wouldn't do it, just playing around with ideas.

I think you guys are way too deep into the barrel of Cubs Kool-Aid.

There's no GM in baseball who's going to trade a top 10 prospect for 1 season of Matt Garza.

The type of GM that gets jizz in his pants about Garza's SIERA from this year, passes out in rapture when he thinks about having a top 10 prospect under club control of six years.

An Old School GM is going to see 10 wins and a pitcher who finished behind RA Dickey in ERA.

Might as well talk about trading Marmol for Bryce Harper.

well I think you're too busy still trying to convince everyone you were right about the trade last offseason.

agree to disagree...

doubt they're moving him anyway, all just hypothetical.

Well, I said at the time it was a stupid trade even if Garza won the Cy Young, so yeah, it was still a stupid trade.

If your fantasy land scenario comes about and the Cubs get more back for Garza than they gave up for him, it would be a decent trade. Suggest you run out and get a lottery ticket when that happens.

I am totally happy agreeing to disagree that Matt Garza is not going to fetch more on the trade market than Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay (wonder how I am going to convince everyone I am right about that too.)

Well, I said at the time it was a stupid trade even if Garza won the Cy Young, so yeah, it was still a stupid trade.

just cause you believe it, doesn't make it true.

as for trade scenarios, that was just one scenario that would make sense for the Cubs imo. Getting 2 top 30 prospects would also make sense.

...i'm piggybacking on a thread, not commenting on what you've said in this, btw...moving on...

so much complaining about the best SP the cubs have picked up since 1/2 past forever.

when trades like this are made, this is exactly the type of return you want. the dude was 1/2-price last year and the cubs get another year of him in this crap-ass 2012 SP market...more if they want to commit.

archer's busy trying to prove he can throw 100 pitches in more than 5 innings, a low-power SS option is busy being years away, and a slew of bench guys are trying to prove they can be bench guys...

every few months the "wow, look at that guy we lost" crew picks a new "wow" all the while garza is delivering "wow" on a MLB level everywhere but with his glove and bat.

Well said.

Garza's poor fielding this year though makes me wish someone invented a designated fielder.

How many games did Garza win this year? How many games did the Cubs win this year?

Making trades out of context is almost as pointless as evaluating them out of context.

Well, Garza did have a career best in K/BB, K/9, HR allowed, K's, and led the Cubs pitching staff in most stats.
Are we using wins to judge pitchers now?

We're using team wins to judge whether you trade a big chunk of your farm system for 1 pitcher.

Out of curiousity would you guys go back in time and undo that trade if we could?

Interesting question Neal. For the record, whether you'll remember or not, I said I liked Garza, but that it was an awful lot to give up for 1 pitcher, when your team is more than that away from contending.
Now, I didn't think the Cub season would suck quite as mightily as it did, but I didn't think that they would seriously compete with Milwaukee, St.Louis, or even Cincinnati. Would having Fuld, Chirinos, Lee, Archer, and Guyer have helped this team in any way this season?

Would having Fuld, Chirinos, Lee, Archer, and Guyer have helped this team in any way this season?

This season is 2012 or 2011? They probably could have gotten some use out of Guyer and Chirinos this year, but in 2012 it's not hard to see three of those guys contributing.

And then in 2013 we won't have Garza (or at leat not for much below FA prices), and it's possible all four of those guys contribute for less than $2 million.

Submitted by The Real Neal on Tue, 10/11/2011 - 10:07am.
Would having Fuld, Chirinos, Lee, Archer, and Guyer have helped this team in any way this season?

This season is 2012 or 2011? They probably could have gotten some use out of Guyer and Chirinos this year, but in 2012 it's not hard to see three of those guys contributing.

And then in 2013 we won't have Garza (or at leat not for much below FA prices), and it's possible all four of those guys contribute for less than $2 million.


REAL NEAL: Matt Garza isn't a free-agent until after the 2013 season, and depending on whether he is rated a Type "A or a Type "B" FA at that time, he should fetch one if not two draft picks if the Cubs don't re-sign him.

The one I would be concerned about is Sean Marshall, who will be a FA after next season.

I doubt that he would sign a long-term deal to be a lefty set-up man when somebody out there will probably be willing to pay him to be a starting pitcher. That's another reason why the Cubs should move Marshall to the starting rotation in 2012, so they can find out if he can be a rotation starter, and if he can, they might want to sign him long-term as a starter before he hits free-agency.

And if the move to the starting rotation doesn't work out, then Marshall (and the Cubs) will know that his future is as a lefty set-up guy.

And now the admission....

Yeah, and the bad thing is that I was told this before, but just can't seem to get it through my head. How does a guy pitch in the majors for two years with 24 starts and 133 innings and not accrue a year of service time?

But the point about him making close to FA market money in 2013 remains. If he gets four arb years he's going to be making a lot of money.

I wouldn't undo it. I don't think any of the guys traded for Garza will ever do much. I guess they'd be cheap, though.

Well, we have talent in the lower levels with Marco Hernandez, Carlos Penalver. Legit shortstops in the upper levels are a bit tougher to find. Marwin Gonzalez has the tools to be solid, but he's still developing offensively and defensively. I'm not completely sold he's going to be an everyday shortstop caliber defensive player, but the possibility is there. Lake probably needs to really tighten things up to have a shot to stick, but he's the most talented guy.

I'm not a big fan of moving Starlin Castro off shortstop ... yet. That said, a Heyward/Teheran trade for Castro/McNutt is something I'd probably do. You give Marwin Gonzalez a shot at the shortstop job against Darwin Barney, go out and add a cheap veteran to compete, spend some resources to spruce up other positions. It wouldn't be easy, but Heyward's offensive potential is still great (I'm not that concerned yet about his performance this year), and Teheran has ace potential, which is tough to find.

I say this as someone who still thinks there's a chance Starlin is passable enough at short through his cost-controlled years and continues to add power to his game without sacrificing the hit tool. That'd be a really talented, useful player, but Heyward and Teheran for Castro/McNutt? Probably.

Just as an aside about Lake from watching him in the AZ Fall League game Saturday night -- you can really see the tools he brings to bear on the field. He pulled off some nice plays on defense Saturday night, looking real smooth and has a gun for an arm. Maybe (?) not equal to Dunston, Sr. (who is?) but can really pour it across with just a flip. This is not in contradiction of any of the opinions about his "polish" or "coachability" -- just that none of those issues showed up in the game he had Saturday night. I can see why the scouts would fall in love with his tools.

Might be a good idea to someday trade him to a team whose scouts have fallen in love with his tools.

I don't think either team would do the Castro for Heyward swap, and I don't think either should.

Heyward because of his health and a slightly more spotty track record is the riskier player. The type of player you want to throw on top of an 88 win roster to try to win your division and make a run into the playoffs. Someone who may give you a WAR like 1.0 one year, but could be an 8 WAR guy another year.

Castro is probably a lot more stable, going to give you WAR's in the high 2's to low 4's for the next 4 years.

In the position the Cubs are, they need to get some more reliable contributors, and shouldn't trade one.

It would probably take new GM's in both places who don't have much affinity for "their guys" to get that trade done.

What about Castro for Mike Trout?

bigger fan of Heyward myself, but sure.

Angels seem happy with Aybar at SS, but could move Castro to 3B. They certainly have enough OF'ers for next year at least.

A top shortstop is more valuable than a top right fielder. I wouldn't make the trade of Castro for Hayward.

Young shortstops make errors. Castro will improve both defensively and offensively.

This just in (#2):

from rotoworld...

Robinson Chirinos will be sidelined for 4-6 weeks after breaking a bone near his right wrist while playing winter ball in his native Venezuela.

If he broke his navicular, it can heal with casting that includes the thumb but this is the same bone Patrick Kane had fixed with a screw. If it's his hamate bone, they usually just excise the broken fragment as it's tough to heal since it's a pretty small piece.


super joe mcewing new 3rd base coach for the wsox. next stop, a mlb manager gig. really great guy...little dude commands respect.

nelson cruz sure does love being injured.

rondell white approves.

nelson cruz sure does love hitting homers.

sammy sosa approves.

I loved MVP Baseball '03 on PS one... You could take the time to turn the shittiest guy and continually trade him up to get to at least a mid level guy. Then you could do that a few times and turn those two mid-level guys into somebody legit. V. Wells and B. Kielty together could get you damn near anybody in the game...

Side note. Take the absolute most-staunch Castro fan/supporter. How afraid is that fan of injury or impending doom, a la ANYBODY the Cubs have brought up in any recent year.

I see what Castro has done, and I like him, but I don't know how much I believe in him long-term. I'm afraid the BA goes away, and then I'm not sure what we're left with, other than 'potential'. He's an awesome piece, but he's not a staff Ace, or a legit #3 hitter; I don't know if he anchors/captains the team over the long haul.

Damn, I sound jaded.

High Heat for the PC will always be the best of the best.

the PS one version wasn't too bad either.

HH2003 for PC was on it's way to perfect...then came mlb exclusive licensing for video games...sigh

oh well, 3DO was busy filing for bankruptcy, anyway...

the graphics were worse than some other games, but that wasn't the point. it's user/team management features and sheer depth was amazing. you had control of players down to 3 levels in the minors and could trade any of them. the layout made it easy/fast to manage, too. it was easy to "get into" a long-term dynasty type play with HH2003 PC...good stuff.

I just loved the physics of the game, strikes were hard to throw but not impossible and singles felt like singles. It wasn't the same animation over and over...

yeah, the only thing that drove me crazy was that you could bunt with a very fast runner and get a single 8/9 times out of 10 and it didn't matter how crappy his hitting projection/stat is. it's users that abuse that more than the AI, though.

I loved the original Earl Weaver baseball for PC's back in the late 80's. Great stuff. Funny story, one night I came home from work, big storm knocked the cable out. I went to radio shack to buy a TV antennae. Then I saw a box for Earl Weaver baseball, read the box, desperately wanted the game. It was on sale, and I ended up buying a Tandy something computer on the spot just for that game. It ran on DOS. I bought a few other games eventually but Earl Weaver baseball was a lot like Halo in that, once you had it, other games didn't offer much interest. I probably haven't played another game on Xbox longer than 2-3 hours total in the last few years, just the Halo ones. Earl Weaver baseball was like that on DOS, at least for me.

Castro could someday be a legit #3 hitter.

And don't you have injury concerns with potential aces and sluggers as well?

bases loaded, 0 outs, bottom of 9th, tie game....

0 runs.

Flyout to LF and a DP

What ever happened to Wes on this blog??? Don't feel like I have seen a post from him in at least a year...

Year-long tantric orgy with Ruz, Transmission and Johann's mom. Silent Towel is there, but only as a fluffer.

Should I admit how funny I find this comment to be?

It's probably the whole "Joe" fraternity thing -- any comment by a Joe is automatically better in the eyes of the other Joes.

We need to cheer each other on, because everyone else is jealous of us. In the world, there are Joes and those who wish they were Joes.

Brett Jackson 3 for 5 with a home run today as U.S. beat Panama 5-0 and advanced to Round 2 of IBAF Baseball World Cup.

Jackson 10 for 26 (.385) overall.

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