Great Moments In Brian-Roberts-To-Cubs-Trade-Rumor History

Roberts Rumor Process
"The first test of Andy MacPhail's authority as Orioles president of baseball operations will come if a rival club makes a strong push to acquire second baseman Brian Roberts.

"A year ago, Orioles owner Peter Angelos refused to allow his previous front office to trade Roberts...Orioles executives, however, say privately that they are not under orders to keep Roberts.

"The Mets and Astros were among the teams that showed interest in Roberts before signing free-agent second basemen Luis Castillo and Kaz Matsui, respectively.

"The next team to take a run at Roberts could be the Cubs, who failed to land Matsui."

-- FoxSports.com, 12/3/07

 

"The Cubs and Baltimore Orioles have talked about a possible deal for switch-hitting second baseman Brian Roberts, who could move into the No. 2 spot in the lineup and provide some much needed speed. Reports that the Cubs were trading Rich Hill to the Orioles for Roberts were denied by team officials.

"'Anybody who can hit left-handed and run and play the middle of the infield, we would certainly still look into,' Hendry said."

-- Cubs.com, 12/6/07

 

"On hold over much of the last month, the Brian Roberts talks are on again between the Cubs and Baltimore Orioles. This deal almost certainly is going to happen--the only question is when and how much it's going to cost the Cubs."

-- Chicago Tribune, 1/10/08

 

"Are the Cubs still pursuing Brian Roberts or were they scared off by the steroids? He is exactly what they need to make a strong challenge (apart from a center fielder who can hit). Roberts can lead off, steal, hit for average and field. They should have enough pitchers to make the deal happen." . . . Dan W., Naples, Fla.

"The Cubs and Orioles are still talking, but some of the players mentioned recently are not involved, so don't believe the rumors. Keep in mind that Roberts is a favorite of Orioles owner Peter Angelos, who blocked a trade last year that involved the second baseman. The Mitchell Report revelations are not the holdup--it's just a matter of finding the right match for both teams, and the reports out of Baltimore are that Orioles general manager Andy MacPhail has very specific requests."

-- Cubs.com, 1/14/08

 

"Contrary to popular belief, knowledgeable Cubs sources say the two teams have not gotten serious about discussing specific players the Orioles would want for Roberts.

"It's highly unlikely the Cubs will trade center-field prospect Felix Pie or former top draft pick Tyler Colvin for Roberts. But a package possibly involving pitcher Sean Marshall or Sean Gallagher plus another player seems more in the ballpark.

"During the Cubs Convention last month, manager Lou Piniella said he didn't believe the Cubs would get Roberts. Piniella also expressed his pleasure with incumbent second baseman Mark DeRosa, who would be moved to a super-utility role if Roberts comes to Chicago.

"At this point, Hendry also seems resigned to moving on without Roberts if he and MacPhail can't agree on a deal."

-- Daily Herald, 2/8/08

 

"There is now a feeling in Orioles land that Angelos may be balking at the negotiated haul for Roberts, which according to sources, is a very fair three-player package of young pitcher Sean Gallagher, outfielder Matt Murton and infielder Ronny Cedeno. There is also a sense that Angelos has an unreasonable attachment to Roberts, who may well remind the owner of himself: a little guy who's scrapped his way to the top of his profession (no, not baseball; Angelos is at the top of the legal profession, at least in terms of dollars earned)."

-- si.com, 2/11/08

 

"MacPhail said more than one team has shown interest in trading for Roberts, though the Cubs are believed to be the most aggressive suitor. Roberts called the Cubs 'a great organization' and said Chicago would be a fun place to play. Roberts attended a 2003 National League Championship Series game between the Cubs and Florida Marlins as a guest of former teammate Jeff Conine and said he was amazed at the electric atmosphere at Wrigley Field."

-- Baltimore Sun, 2/20/08

 

MESA, Ariz. - The Cubs still hope to acquire second baseman Brian Roberts and an outfielder before the end of spring training, but general manager Jim Hendry shot down Internet and radio rumors that a trade is imminent.

"There have been no active talks in any trade situation in the last five or six days," Hendry said.

-- Chicago Tribune, 3/5/08

 

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. - The Orioles and Chicago Cubs have not had any recent discussions about All-Star second baseman Brian Roberts, pushing the potential deal toward Opening Day or beyond.

The talks have stalled while scouts from the teams evaluate players on each other's roster. The Cubs, who are looking for a leadoff hitter to set up the middle of their lineup, have had at least one scout at every game Roberts has played this spring. Dave Engle, one of the Orioles' top scouts, went to Mesa, Ariz., to observe several of the Cubs' prospects.

"Our scouts are out and about doing their due diligence and watching the teams that they should be watching," Orioles president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail said.

Asked whether he feels compelled to make a decision on the status of Roberts by a certain date, MacPhail said, "I'm not a big one on drop-dead dates."

-- Baltimore Sun, 3/8/08

 

"Sources confirmed Thursday that the Cubs have a four-player offer for Roberts on the table that includes the addition of hard-throwing pitching prospect Jose Ceda. Infielder Ronny Cedeno and pitchers Sean Gallagher and Donnie Veal also are in the package.

"The Cubs and Baltimore Orioles talked again during the past week, and insiders in both camps have expressed strong feelings that a deal will get done for the All-Star second baseman. However, they consider it likely to take an 11th-hour agreement before the openers on March 31.

"It's also possible the deal could grow to include pitcher Jason Marquis going to Baltimore and outfielder Jay Payton coming to the Cubs in a 5-for-2 or 6-for-2 trade that likely would include cash."

-- Chicago Sun-Times, 3/14/08

 

"There have been no significant developments over the past week or two, and the time left for getting the deal done during spring training is growing short. The Orioles aren't fettered by any hard-and-fast limits on when they can act, but you can bet both teams would like to reach some semblance of roster certainty over the next 10 days.

"Does that mean a deal is imminent? No. It probably means that if the Cubs do not show a sense of urgency during the next week or so, this could stretch well into the season and the chemistry of the situation could change dramatically..."

-- Baltimore Sun, 3/15/08

 

"Can we please overpay for Chone Figgins and forget about Baltimore already?"

-- Cubster, The Cub Reporter, 3/15/08

 

 

 

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Comments

Nice graphic.

I think Figgins would cost us more than Roberts, but hard to say. It would probably have to be a 3 way deal unless Wood starts suddenly hitting.

Thanks.

I know Figgins was supposedly on the White Sox' radar earlier this off-season. I agree with Cubster's sentiment that it would be nice to have a viable alternative to dealing with MacPhail. Maybe it's the lack of leverage that is preventing the Cubs from being able to complete this trade. 

Needs more flames...apparently you missed the inter-office memo on increasing readership with eye-catching graphics. We'll discuss this privately. :)

Rob,

I think flames should remain your design niche. I'm laying claim to anal-retentive printing.

About the possibility of trading for Figgins--

mlbtraderumors.com flagged this article in the L.A. Times...

http://www.latimes.com/sports/baseball/mlb/angels/la-sp-angels16mar16,1,7186253.story

...regarding Angels' starting staff injury woes--Lackey and Escobar out until sometime in May. Sounds like maybe they could use themselves a little Marquis.

Can Figgins play SS?

Hasn't played there much--27 games out of more than 700 in the majors. None last year.

No, not really. He played there exclusivley for his first three minor league seasons, posting fielding percentages of .867, .947, and .925 (the latter was a full 122 game season at High A). He was switched to second base to start the 2000 season and played mostly at second with a few games at short and third mixed in as he moved his way up the ladder. He played the outfield for the first time in 2003, at both AAA and in the majors - where he had a combined fielding percentage of 1.000 at the position. This included 40 games worth of innings for the Angels. In 2004 he played mostly 3B (92 games) but also played a lot of OF (57 games), as well as 2B and SS - all for the big league team. He's done much the same since, splitting time between a variety of positions.

I would say he would be worse at short than DeRosa would be (who has much more experience), but Figgins would be much better at oufield than DeRosa is, with the added ability to play center. So as part of a late inning switch or something you could put either DeRosa or Figgins at short, and I'm sure they'd do fine, but neither should be your starting SS for the season.

Can Figgins play SS?



in case of emergency? sure

on a regular basis? no way

Chone's best position is center field fwiw, at least according to the Angels powers that be.

"...failed to land Matsui"

Ah, sweet failure.

Nice.

Everytime Hendry does something good, like bringing in Leiber or Fukudome, I forget about the bad things he does or tries to do (Oh Aram-Ram you deed good, reverse chalupa for you!)

Speak for yourself. The Lieber and K-Fuk signings are nothing close to good yet. Especially compared to the Lilly and Alf signing last year.

"compared to the Lilly ... signing last year."

Which, if I remember correctly, you were opposed to because of money, years, principle, etc. Don't let that stop you though.

Well you remember incorrectly. I was fine with Lilly, not Marquis.

I disagree but don't have time to look it up.

by "fine", manny refrained from making a Hendry fat joke that day.

What the hell, I found some time.

MannyTrillo:

12/6/06, 10:37 p.m.

As for Lilly, I am not that excited still have more work to do on the pitching.

12/7/06, 4:12 p.m.

BP.com:
“I just don’t see where this (signing Lilly) pushes a team that much closer to a title.”

I can’t agree more…

To be fair, though, I also was pretty skeptical about the Lilly signing, and certainly about the Marquis signing.

That doesn't matter anyway.

What Manny thought about the deal before last season was irrelevant. He was commenting on the actual outcome rather than his prediction.

Exactly. Which is why negatively commenting on the Lieber and Fuku signings makes no sense. There's a difference between a bad signing and a bad outcome. The Nomar trade was a good idea but it turned out badly. The Marquis signing, although it wasn't too bad last year in outcome, was a bad idea. Saying that signing Lieber to a $1 minor league deal is not necessarily a good idea is just stupid.

n/t

Manny didn't like the DeRosa deal either and there's still over $100 million to go on Soriano, but well, that's just Manny being Manny.

I wasn't a fan of the DeRosa deal myself, but I think I did maintain the right to reserve judgement by saying something along 'maybe Hendry's scouts think that his improvements in 2006 are stustainable'. I really hated the Marquis signing, just because I thought the length was too much, but we'll see what Marquis gets turned into in the next 10 days.

You mean what Marquis and half our farm system gets turned into, cuz Marquis ain't gonna get it done by himself.

"Marquis ain't gonna get it done by himself."

Well at least you attributed what I said to me.

I meant what I said. If Marquis get's traded it's not necessarily going to be part of a larger deal.

Hey, I hope you're right.

Now I am really confused... who was I speaking for?

I have this bad feeling this year will be 1985 redux. We'll deal away all of our pitching depth to get Brian Roberts and on June 1, four of our five starters will be on the DL. Then we'll be forced to send out to the mound guys like Jay Baller and Steve Engel.

Seriously, I'd like to have Roberts. Every year we've had a top notch lead-off hitter, we've won. Dernier, Walton, Lance Johnson, Lofton...But McFail wants our top three pitching prospects plus Cedeno? Walk away, Hendry!

"Every year we've had a top notch lead-off hitter, we've won. Dernier, Walton, Lance Johnson, Lofton"

Did you forget we have Soriano? And when you tell me that he's not a leadoff hitter, I will remind you that we won the central last year.

We also had Walton in 1990, and that didn't do us much good!!

You bring up an interesting point. The rosters from 1984-1985 and from 1989-1990 were very similar with very little turnover. Yet the teams went from 96-65 to 77-84 and 90-72 to 77-85. Injuries accounted for some that, but 19 and 13 less wins worth? I guess I haven't looked at the performances side-by-side to see what went wrong, but it goes to show you that baseball is unpredictable.

It also points to the cubs long held tradition of not really upgrading teams when they are on the cusp. Too many times the moves they make tend to be window dressing and lateral moves. Recent examples also include

2004 Not getting a SS
2008 Not getting a SS
1999 Not really doing anything, however the 98 team was smoke and mirrors anyway
1990 Believing that Dwight Smith,Jerome Walton and Mike Bielecki were for real. They did go and get Danny Jackson,George Bell and the Ghost of Dave Smith to try and rectify things the following year. Unfortunately the nucleus wasnt as good as the Cubs thought it was.

The Cubs did plenty to improve on the 2003 team.


1998 was just a lucky team. I could say much of the same about 1989, a lot of career years that season. 1985 was just too many injuries and too old.

The goal always seems to be putting the best 85-88 team possible together. Never does management ever try and "go for it". A Brian Roberts deal sure as hell doesnt signal going for it. Johan Santana and Fixing a 15 year old hole at SS would have signaled Going for it.

I just did a side-by-side comparison of the 1989 to the 1990 team. The offense actually did better in 1990. The only two positions that regressed were LF and CF where Dwight Smith and Jerome Walton tanked. But other than that Grace had similar seasons, and Girardi did in 1990 what Berryhill did in 1989, and the rest improved. Sandberg, Dunston, and Dawson had huge seasons in 1990 over 1989 (in fact all 3 were All-Stars) and Luis Salazar put up better production than Vance Law did at third. The bench was a bit weaker in 1990, but the real story, not suprisingly was pitching.

Maddux did worse, Sutcliffe was injured the entire year, Bielecki turned to crap, and the bullpen was horrid. In 1989 the bullpen had ERAs of 1.36, 1.77, 2.76, 3.77, 3.78, and 4.20. Compare that to 1990 - 2.80, 3.93, 4.37, 4.62, 4.79, and 6.53.

2004: Whaaa??

Added DLee, Maddux and a then-studly Latroy.

Mid-season, added Nomar to play SS.

I think it's hard to blame Hendry for 2004.

Damn Hendry!!

Gave nothing to poor Dusty to work with.

1984 Sutcliffe 150.1
1985 Sutcliffe 130
1989 Sutcliffe 229
1990 Sutcliffe 21.1
1998 Wood 166.2
1999 Wood 0
2003 Wood 211
2004 Wood 140.1
2007 Zambrano 216.1
2008 Zambrano ?

Wow. That's quite a remarkable find you've made there.

According to todays Sun Times-

"The need for another outfielder has become so great, manager Lou Piniella will give right fielder Kosuke Fukudome some looks in center this week.

''One thing we don't have here is a backup center fielder,'' Piniella said. ''I said we weren't going to keep both young center fielders [Felix Pie and Sam Fuld] here. I'm going to have to play Fukudome in center a little bit this week.''

Fukudome has made it clear to Piniella he prefers right field. How did he react to the news Sunday?

''If they tell me to play center field, I'll play center field,'' Fukudome said through an interpreter. ''I played center field a full season in Japan. I have played more in right field, but I can play either position. It shouldn't be a problem.''

Piniella stressed that Fukudome is simply an insurance policy for center"

No word if Fukudome can play SS. :-)

Fukodome CAN play SS, yes? Isn't that his original position before moving to 3B, before moving to RF?

I remember reading about Fukodome attributing his offensive improvement to his move to the outfield, so I doubt he's interested in moving back to SS, nor do I imagine he'd be very good.

Can you imagine Fukodome at SS and Soriano at 2B?

How high would the infield grass get?

I think Lee would switch to a catcher's mitt.

How high would the infield grass get?


covering ground wouldn't be the problem, but Derrek would need a fishing net to grab the throws and fans behind first base would be required to wearing catching gear.

can really be said about this Roberts' deal? And what else needs to be figured out? If we acquire him, we'll get a decent OBP and high steals guy that will shake up the lineup and provide adequate to above average defense. If we don't, we keep our three best pitching prospects and cover our asses over the fact that we didn't upgrade the pitching AT ALL over the winter. It's a tossup in my mind, although the fact that we keep adding talent to the deal is discouraging.

Just DECIDE already.

Catcher ...Soto is an upgrade over the crap we fielded last year, Blanco is back
1B... DLee is healthier
SS... Theriot is an upgrade over the committee that played SS last year (believe it or not!)
LF... Soriano's legs are healthier
CF... Pie in center = more power, more production, not necessarily more BA

Closer....Wood, Marmol, Howry ..take your pick they're better than Dempster

Back of the SP staff.... is three deep at #5

Well shit, why aren't they just printing up the WS tickets now?

It's alway THE TICKETS with you.
Well, if you actually look at what I'm saying, you'll notice that
1) RF is not an upgrade
2) a lot of the reason we look better this year is our players are healthier*
3) the other primary reason we're better is we were really lousy up the middle last year which means Soto, Pie and Theriot are actually upgrades even if they're below average.
4) closer is better due to addition by subtraction

*at the moment, give or take a twisted testicle

navigator:
"4) closer is better due to addition by subtraction"

I would be willing to bet any closer we use this year will not close out games at the percentage Dempster did last year.

Any bets on whether he will do better than Dempster's 2-7 record (which followed a 1-9 record in 2006)?

Only a few blown saves, but lots of losses -- a total of 16 in two years.

I would be willing to bet any closer we use this year will not close out games at the percentage Dempster did last year.



Wish folks would stop using Dumpster's save percentage as a crutch...I mean, I thought he did okay, but he blew plenty of non-save situations that need to be accounted for(tie-games and greater than 3-run leads). I didn't mind him and all, but we definitely can do better, and likely will.


The simple fact is Wood, Howry and Marmol are just better pitchers than Dempster is, or ever will be. 

If they were printing them I'm sure you'd be buying them to resell just as quickly.

DOWN WITH CAPITALISM!!!!!!!!

actually...

down with capitalism!!!

the first one was too ironic.

WISCGRAD:
"If they were printing them I'm sure you'd be buying them to resell just as quickly."

Nope, I would go to the first WS home game and then likely sell the rest.

Uhmm Have you seen Soriano running? And it is the "Cub trainers" saying he is okay? Just wondering 'cause I have my doubts about his legs.

scooter®

Andy McFail photo while contemplating this deal...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/500hats/301705754/

...or while signing Wood to that extension for 2004.

Fuku isnt an upgrade in RF? Come on now.

Is this the same style arguement that says DeRosa is of the same caliber as an elite 2nd baseman like Brian Roberts?

if Fuku just hits the same as our composite RF'er from last year, he'll still be a considerable upgrade.


If he moves to Cf he will be a HUGE upgrade over Jack and Pie.

Well... offensively, I am not sure that Fukudome is an upgrade in RF. He could be, but I don't think it is a forgone conclusion.

Cubs RFs, last year, hit a combined line of: .293/.375/.419

I am not sure that he will be better than that. He may be, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has a similar or worse line.

With that said, if he even comes close to what the Cubs RFs did last year, his much better defense will make him an overall upgrade.

last year the cubs RF let a lot of guys go from 1st to 3rd, 2nd to 3rd, and 3rd to home with little hesitation...be it on the run on the initial play or being moved by someone else.

we had a LF'r who held runners last year and 3 guys in RF who had no business there playing as much as they did.

holding runners isn't everything, but having guys in both corners (and CF) will give pause to runners looking for a better shot at scoring position.

its not everything, but its something. fuku's paycheck isnt coming solely from his bat.

Umm... didn't I already acknowledge his defense being an upgrade?

i wasn't jumping on the comment to argue...just adding to it.

sorry for the confusion.

Todd Linden? He's reportedly not going to make the A's and the SFC says he's been released. Perhaps this is Hendry's OFer?

http://www.rotoworld.com/

linden in CF would be funny...

Why would the Cubs be interested in Linden?

Matt Murton is a much better hitter, and neither can play CF. The A's are cutting the guy, even though he has raked this spring, because he can't play CF.

Murton, Hoffpauir, Jake Fox are all players who would be better than Linden.

Yeah, I honestly didn't know anything about him which is why I asked. I thought he might be a RF type, since it says he can't play CF. But if Murton's better, great.

...stupid day off...

good article, btw...nice to see the clusterf*ck that is b.roberts/cubs in a proper cluster.

Not to mention throwing 1 guy out there for 162 games of consistency than throwing 3 guys out there.

I don't care what 3 guys could do in one position, I want to know what 1 person can do with a postion. And in that regard he is a huge upgrade.

Using the arguement of well "All Cubs RFers hit this..." is a poor way to compare something.

"Using the arguement of well "All Cubs RFers hit this..." is a poor way to compare something."

*boggle*

Yeah.

*Yahtzee*

Ok Rob, now that I've done it...was that stupid?

No, I think it was great for you...really. :)


Rob's Opening Day LIneup:
C - Chris Snyder
1b - Pujols
2b - Hudson
SS - Tulo
3b - Chipper
LF - Sheff
CF - Rios
RF - Berkman
Util - Kent or LaRoche

SP
Nobody, absolutely nobody

Joe's Opening Day Lineup:
C - Pudge
1b - Howard
2b - Kelly Johnson
SS - Hanley
3b - Wright
LF - Holliday
CF - Sizemore
RF - Figgins
Util - Soriano

SP
Gilgameche!

--------------
I guess Pujols' season will be the judge.

I guess that's okay....

it was a good trade for both of us, I really do think Kelly Johnson will have a huge year. Had to pull the trigger on Pujols in a keeper league though, INF are just more valuable than outfielders in our pts system. It also let me move Berkman to RF, where I get first base points for him.

I will be without a CFer keeper though next year unless Pie goes nuts this year or Rios gets more time there this season.

You guys have a keeper league without salaries?

6 keepers/25-man roster....you draft your keepers based off their point value from the year before. It's a 16-team league, so if your top keeper had the 20th most points the previous year, you'd draft him with your 2nd pick. If you have multiple keepers in the same round, they just drop to the subsequent rounds. We factor in some defense (assists, errors, outfield assists), so infielders get a little boost over outfielders. The trade was:


Pujols, Kent, Hochevar for Sizemore, Kelly Johnson and Gil Meche

we already had our draft, but Pujols was a first round keeper, Sizemore was a 4th. The rest were drafted this year in various rounds. I actually had a pick in the first round (my keepers went from 2-6 and Round 25) and took Johnson (highest projected VORP for a position player out of players not on anyone's keeper list), but I have O-dawg  and got Kent back.

My starting pitching consists of Liriano, Zito, Bonderman and Slowey right now. And I guess Hochevar...but not sure he'll make the team. I also grabbed Carpenter late and will move him to the DL and grab someone else.

Liriano is struggling now. Although it's spring training, he may not really be a good contributor fantasy-wise for a month or two.

Liriano is struggling now. Although it's spring training, he may not really be a good contributor fantasy-wise for a month or two.


He'll be fine...(muttering to self while rocking slowly back and forth) ...He'll be fine....He'll be fine.

Yeah, that makes sense. I don't like having an OF'er in the Utility, but if it has to be someone, better to be Soriano. If I didn't make a move (at some point) I'd be stuck with two LF's and two 1B's by year's end...If Pujols gets injured it'd be harder to move him later. Like I said, I think it'll all come down to whether or not Pujols gets injured-er.

Gilgameche (if I keep using it, it'll catch on) is just gravy on the frosting.

You're still forgetting that Kelly Johnson is "fringe". He fringed on my roster for almost all of last season. Maybe you should grabe Matt Diaz off the waiver wire too.

Matt Diaz is taken.

Hendry is in a trick bag when it comes to Roberts. He knows that Roberts is exactly the player he needs to help manufacture runs during the inordinate number of home games scheduled for the cold-weather months of April and May.

But McPhail knows this too, and since he is in a re-buildiong mode, he can wait and leverage the situation in hopes that Hendry will overpay.

Cedeno is not helping matters any, as Orioles scouts were probably holding their noses watching Cedeno hit even before he tweaked a hammy. Meanwhile, in Orioles camp, SS Branden Fahey is hitting .300, and a NRI named Oscar Salazar is hitting .308 with a SLG of .538.

So Hendry is running out of time and whatever negotiating leverage he had is disappearing fast.

he's 9 for 19 (.474) with 2 doubles, 1K, and 0bb.

he's corey patterson.

go spring.

votto doing nothing to help his cause and getting a day off...jay bruce failing further with a 0-2 day.

this is all fantastic news for the Cubbies...

You want SP? I've got SP.

Need a closer?

I think manny and JD are hogging the SP's

REAL NEAL:

Salaries + Yahoo! League = does not compute.

Yeah, not sure how that'd work. Keepers take the place of draft picks, though.

Well, I one of you guys would have to do the bold step of creating a 'spreadsheet' and keeping track of the salaries.

Well, I one of you guys would have to do the bold step of creating a 'spreadsheet' and keeping track of the salaries.

Yeah, thanks for the insight, we all seem happy with the league though. Best of luck in yours...

Midol works wonders for that, Rob G.

I was just making a suggestion to make your league a little more realistic.

Salary caps are realistic?

Yup.

That is why MLB has parody, because the Marlins and the Yankees, and everyone in between, are limited to spending the same amount of money.

Well, the Marlins have won the World Series more recently than the Yankees and every GM has to operate with salary restrictions.... but I guess you already knew that and are just on the same cycle as Rob G.

Is it douchebag Monday or something?

So how gets stuck with the Marlins' salary restrictions and who gets the benefit of the Yankees' salary restrictions?

Lets be honest - salary caps will not be realistic in fantasy baseball until salary caps are a reality in real baseball.

Oh... and was saying anything about which teams won a World Series?

How is that relevant to a discussion on whether or not salary caps in fantasy baseball are realistic?

"That is why MLB has parody, because the Marlins and the Yankees, "

"How is that relevant to a discussion on whether or not salary caps in fantasy baseball are realistic?"

It's not every day that someone brings up something and then asks someone else to answer why he brought it up. I suggest you answer your own question.

If you have two options, one where players are signed to contracts and after the contracts expire go back into the pool for bidding on the open market, and one where players are drafted and stay with that team until the owner has no use for them (how many times has A-Rod been available?), which one more closely mirrors managing a big league roster? Which is sort of the point of fantasy baseball for most people.

Run your league anyway you want, I merely asked a question then Rob made a bitchy remark and Carlos followed up with a sort of silly one.

Why anyone is taking offense is beyond me.

It's not every day that someone brings up something and then asks someone else to answer why he brought it up.

Still trying to figure out what winning the World Series has to do with this.

I brought up the Yankees and Marlins because of the extreme differences in their payrolls. Not because one team was winning and one wasn't.

So again... what does winning (or not winning) the World Series have to do with whether or not salary caps in fantasy baseball are realistic?

Parody in professional sports is generally determined by a team in any market being able to win the championship. That's what MLB has.

Arguing that draft parody is more realistic than 'salary cap' salary makes no sense. GM's do bid on players. They only draft American amateurs.

If you were a major league GM, your boss or bosses would give you some sort of budget for a payroll. Within the constraints of that budget, in general, you could build a roster that suits you're style as a GM. In leagues where players are auctioned rather than drafted you have the ability to better sculpt the roster style that you want. You can have a 'top heavy' or an evenly distributed roster. This adds realism.

In Fantasy leagues, typically you're going to 'even the playing field' by giving all the GM's the same salary cap or the same number of draft picks in each round, but neither of those things are strictly necessary. A big part of that is determined by what your winning conditions are. It wouldn't be impossible, or even unheard of to say 'OK, you're Cincinatti and you have to do these things to win' similar to a game of Axis and Allies. Some guy starts out as Germany and some guy starts out as Britian but no one says 'we need parody'.

Except the league began on equal footing. I didn't draft Pujols, I traded for him 2 seasons back when his stock was low. I drafted Hanley prior to his rookie year.

A keeper league is about anticipating value; buying and selling low and high respectively. I don't have apologize for have a strong team, because I built it strong. REAL baseball is unbalanced because salaries as well as management varies. In a fantasy league only management varies. Everyone (other than draft pick arrangement...I, personally, have never been higher than midway up the draft order) has equal opportunity to trade for/ draft / pick off waivers the same players.

Yes, certain players become free agents in REAL baseball, but that increasingly is not the case. Teams lock their players prior to free agency. If the Yankees really wanted to they could have resigned ARod before any other offers were made.

With that said, what's going on with Brian Roberts?

Don't you guys lose a team or two ever year? Of your original 16 teams how many are still around. Of those where did they finish last year?

I wonder if maybe you're deluding yourselves into thinking you've got more parody than you really do. It seems Rob G puts up a post every year about filling a couple of spots.

Rob can remember better than I can, because he dealt with replacements, but no, the teams who finished at the bottom of the standings tend to be the inevitable teams in every league who fail to update their teams: trade, pick up free agents, set lineups, which, yes, is detrimental to the team's scoring.

I wonder if maybe you're deluding yourselves into thinking you've got more parity than you really do. It seems Rob G puts up a post every year about filling a couple of spots.

This is our third year of existence, we lost three the first year and two last year. We contracted one team the first year too, as 17 was too much. I think Joe jumped from 8th to 1st in one year. Carlos took over a team and went from like 15th to 6th without a 3bman all year :)

We've had little problem filling empty spots and one reason is because of our keeper system. I can show someone the crappy team they're taking over, but usually they do have at least 6 decent players worth keeping. They guy who took over the 2nd worst team this season had Rollins, Cano, Hunter, Crawford, Carmona and Pence as his keepers.

"Parody in professional sports is generally determined by a team in any market being able to win the championship. That's what MLB has."

Really? You think that because a team is ALLOWED to go out and spend money in order to improve themselves, that creates parity? It doesn't.

The NFL has parity. The NBA has parity. MLB does not.

How are you defining parity, if not by wins and losses?

By most measures, the NFL is the healthiest of all professional sports. They attribute it to the fact that the salary cap keeps teams closer to one another in terms of ability to put together quality teams. the disparity between the best team and the worst is far less than in baseball.

A team that will only spend 30 million on their payroll will have a very difficult time competing with a team that spends 200 million.

Are there exceptions? Sure. But over 5 years, the team with the 200 million dollar payroll is going to win WAY more games and see the post season way more times.

On the other hand, a lot of those low salary teams are self imposed. The Marlins are making money, the Pirates are making money and I suspect the Royals and Rays are making money. If those teams wanted to tack on $30 million to their payrolls they'd probably be competitive. As the Cards showed in 2006, you don't have to be a particuarly good team to win he WS.

For every KC Royals there is a Detroit Lions and a LA Clipppers.

The NFL and NBA have a lot of salary tomfoolery that goes on which makes their 'hard caps' not quite what they want you to think they are. Take a look at the Suns' roster, for instance.

Not to be the grammar police, but it's parity. Parody is something else entirely.

T-Dubs scooped you on that one by about 3 hours.

Well, then it's your fault for using the wrong word again just an hour ago.

"Why anyone is taking offense is beyond me."

Rob's "bitchy" remark:
"Yeah, thanks for the insight, we all seem happy with the league though. Best of luck in yours...'

Real Neal's retort:
"Midol works wonders for that," followed by "You must be on the same cycle as Rob G."

Douchebag advantage: Real Neal


Douchebag advantage: Real Neal

THAT was funny.

What does the Marlins winning the WS have to do with a salary cap? I seriously fail to understand your point. Explain it to me legitimately, without resorting to condescension, how a salary cap would make the league 'more realistic'?

So are you saying the Marlins are a parody of the Yankees?

Hehe... nice catch.

That is what happens why I try write fast comments at the end of a work day.

with 16 teams and 6 keepers it evens out a bit.

you can pretty much count on 3/4-4/5+ of the "top100" talent being spoken for and distributed out.

some of the top100 doesnt really work with the league as defined since SB and "plain avg" arent as strong of a pull.

the top "free agents" of the draft included guys like brad hawpe, jim thome, kelly johnson, and dan uggla.

No offense but the league is complex enough and takes a lot of time and effort to participate in without the added variable of salaries. We honestly don't need it. Otherwise all the managers would have to quit their day jobs just to be able to compete.

82 comments so far today. What was that "Rich Hill is Avenue" saying about the lack of comments on the "new" site?

Too many of them are about Rob's fantasy league though. Boring!

:)

thought it was "Rich Hill is a Venue"...makes sense if he gets naming rights as in Rich Hill's Wrigley Field

Oh that's just Evan Brunell puttering around the new TCR site.

big_lowitzki:
Well... offensively, I am not sure that Fukudome is an upgrade in RF. He could be, but I don't think it is a forgone conclusion.

I'm convinced Fuku may or may not outperform Jacque Jones this year, but that isn't the point. The point is over the course of the next 3 to 4 years Fuku will most definitely outperform Jones.

Then there's Fuku's defense and arm.

Yeah, but Jack Played CF not RF.

That's fine. You can be convinced about whatever you want to be convinced about.

Though, of course, I am not sure how the Fukudome and Jones comparisons mean anything, being that Murton and Floyd played a significant portion of the time in RF.

And again... I have already acknowledged that Fuku is obviously better defensively, and WILL be an upgrade if he can come close to what the three(four?)some did in RF last year.

Is it douchebag Monday or something?

Vorare:
If that becomes a permanent Monday feature here along with Haiku Wednesday, I can't bear to think of what we might do to Tuesday.

Testicular Torsion Tuesday?

One hundred comments
I miss the pop-up window
Douchebags pop collars

241 at bats for you was another reason the 1990 Cubs were so bad. However you did imagine to improve on your 20 OPS+ from 1989.

OPS+ doesn't take into account my 1 inning of 0.00 ERA piching in '90. So there.

Actually if you look at the difference between the '89 at bats and the '90 at bats you contributed over 100 AB's of all-star level performace. But when you look at BR's page it lists you as a starter, which is sort of eye-popping. In reality you played the same role as in '89 but with some time filling in for Walton, as I recall.

For your career though, you really were a dismayingly bad ML hitter, who should have never entered a game with less than a 6 run differential except as a 9th inning defensive replacement or a pinch runner.

Don't sell yourself short there. You followed up that 1990 season with another solid year in the bullpen in 1991. 3 games, 4 IP, 2 BB, 2 H, 2 SO, and an ERA of 0.00.

Where can I find boxscores for 1991? Does anyone know? Now I am curious how Doug got in 3 games on the mound that season. Blowouts, or did he develop into a crafty lefthanded sidarmer or something.

The aforementioned baseballreference.com has those.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/1991_s...

Just click the 'box' link next to any game.

Thanks. For those of you interested (probably not many), here is the lowdown on Doug Dascenzo's illustrious career. Overall he faced 18 batters, giving up just 3 singles and a walk, while striking out two swinging and enducing two inning ending double plays. Among his victims were Barry Bonds and Gary Carter.

June 12, 1990 in a 19-8 loss to the Mets

Entered in the 9th inning
- Howard Johnson lined out to center
- Dave Magadan singled to right
- Tim Teufel grounds into a 6-4-3 double play

June 10, 1991 in a 13-5 loss to the Dodgers

Entered in the 8th inning
- Gary Carter ground out to short
- Stan Javier flyout to RF
- Mike Sharperson flyout to CF

9th Inning
- Mike Scioscia walked
- Alfredo Griffin grounds into fielders choice third to second
- Mike Hartley (P) grounds into 6-4-3 double play

June 28, 1991 in a 14-6 loss to the Cardinals

Entered in the 9th inning
- Felix Jose popped foul to catcher
- Milt Thompson grounded out to second
- Tom Pagnozzi bloop single over second
- Jose Oquendo walked
- Willie Fraser (P) struck out swinging

July 2, 1991 in a 13-4 loss to the Pirates

Entered in the 9th inning
- Bobby Bonilla line single to center
- Barry Bonds flies out to left field
- Joe Redfield strikes out swinging
- Mike LaValliere flies out to left

Induce

Good catch!

I have my own spelling patrol? That's awesome, who knew!!!

I just thought it was funny after the whole parody/parity thing.

"You guys have a keeper league without salaries?"

"Well, I one of you guys would have to do the bold step of creating a 'spreadsheet' and keeping track of the salaries."

"Well, the Marlins have won the World Series more recently than the Yankees and every GM has to operate with salary restrictions.... but I guess you already knew that and are just on the same cycle as Rob G."

"It's not every day that someone brings up something and then asks someone else to answer why he brought it up. I suggest you answer your own question."

People are taking offense because you're coming off as a bit douchey. Your beliefs are the best way to do things and why anyone would do something differently is beyond you. You weren't offering friendly advice, you were offering irrelevant examples to let us know that our system is flawed.

"You guys have a keeper league without salaries?"

There was no hidden agenda here, I just never heard of a system like that in fantasy baseball.

"Salaries + Yahoo! League = does not compute."

"Well, I one of you guys would have to do the bold step of creating a 'spreadsheet' and keeping track of the salaries."

I guess this was mildly sarcastic, because in all likelyhood you already have a spreadsheet. Make a spreadsheet, keep the salaries, have some sort of contract system, use a payroll, enter the players into Yahoo after the auction. Typically this is the way 'keeper' baseball leagues are done, in my experience. This is also closer to how MLB GM's have to do their job than having a yearly expansion draft, which is essentially what you guys are doing. Undoubtedly there's a balance between competition, reality and ease of use that each league needs to strike.

"People are taking offense because you're coming off as a bit douchey."

Rob G, Mr Holier than Thou, was happy to toss in a douchey comment all of his own, but where's the criticism for him?

Rob G, Mr Holier than Thou, was happy to toss in a douchey comment all of his own, but where's the criticism for him? 


I hope your more self-aware than manny....

'Smarter than thou' and 'Holier than thou' are two different things.

I don't recall ever making snide comments and telling other people not to make them. That's holier than thou.

'Smarter than thou' and 'Holier than thou' are two different things.

Thanks for the clarification, but I was talking about the shock and dismay that people jumped down your throat instead of mine. I apologize if I misunderstood your comments, but they did come off snobbish to me and I wasn't the only one to notice. And you built your reputation on your own with no help from anyone else, and that's why your comments were apparently misinterpreted. That's what I meant by self-aware.

You know, you're right. Fuck you all.

fin

Rob G.:
"I hope your more self-aware than manny.... "

Why would anyone expect any less of another prick comment like this from you is beside me. Again, no need to call me out, but doesn't stop Rob G.

If Rob G was really that much of a prick he'd simply ban your ass from the site...

I think he was given a pass, because it was perceived as a response to snobbish attack. If that isn't how you meant it, then it was at at least perceived as such.

Anyway, I'm sorry I brought it up. I was bored with the Brian Roberts talk and wanted a (quick) perspective on his reasoning behind the trade. The league itself, works fine for us. Moving on.

BULLSHOOT! Change the dang league, punk! Salary cap or I walk. As Chip Carey would say, "Hear me now and believe me later." Whatever the crap THAT means. I bet ol' Chip giggled with joy when he thought up that line. Then he thought about Craig Biggio. Then he got an erection. You guys got imaginations...you know what happens next. Geez, there are some freaky threads in this place. No wonder I don't post more than I do.

Joe, I want Holliday.

He probably chuckled even harder when he heard it on SNL 25 years ago.

I'll think about it. But only if you be my friend. And I'm not talking about that myspace bullshit...I mean somewhere in between facebook and best man at your wedding.

Deal. Let's seal it with a shirtless hug. I'm all sweaty from doing physical fitness.

The Real Neal:
"Rob G, Mr Holier than Thou, was happy to toss in a douchey comment all of his own, but where's the criticism for him?"

It's called a double standard and it is rampant around here for and against certain posters. You haven't noticed till now?

It's called a double standard and it is rampant around here for and against certain posters. You haven't noticed till now? 


...hence my comment about manny not being self-aware. If you think it's a double standard rather than your own doing, I don't know what to tell you.

Rob G.:
I don't know what to tell you."

Why don't you start by telling me you will stop calling me out for no reason. That would be a good start. I was not involved in the conversation, but you bring me into it. Same goes for The Real Neal. There is no need for it.

Sorry, Manny. I'll think of some other analogy for a broken record senselessly bashing the Cubs GM. I'm even open for suggestions.

The Real Neal:
"Sorry, Manny. I'll think of some other analogy for a broken record senselessly bashing the Cubs GM."

Thanks! Good luck with that analogy.

Why don't you start by telling me you will stop calling me out for no reason. That would be a good start.

I was bringing up an example of someone who posts on here a lot and isn't aware of their own reputation. I think that's pretty relevant.

For example, Chad catches a lot of crap around here, but at least he knows exactly why, and isn't delusional about it.

I am well aware of my "reputation", some of it is deserved and some of it is perpetuated by some and unfair in my opinion. But I suggest you might need to take a look in the mirror, and not throw stones from your glass house. You do come off holy than now and love to throw little jabs at people for no reason, but you seem delusional of it. That is why I constantly bring it up. Maybe it is mainly directed toward me or a selected few, but either way it is not needed. Whatever...

Can we get Opening Day here already?

Go Cubs!!

I think Manny is responsible for half of his reputation. MikeC takes care of the other half...

"I was not involved in the conversation, but you bring me into it. Same goes for The Real Neal. There is no need for it."

The following comment is not intended as derrogatory towards any current TCR poster. Truly.

Manny, like it or not, you have achieved a status as a certain type of personality around here. So have some other posters, such as Chad, crunch, neal, etc. Silent Towel reached a level all his own. Now, when he is referred to, most of us know what the reference is about. I don't compare you to good ol' ST -- he was a singular personality -- but you (and some others) HAVE acheived your own particular kind of fame. And I'm fine with all of that. It keeps things interesting around here. Fwiw.

Oh for the good ole TCR days when CubFan was the only one with a "reputation"...

Why don't you start by telling me you will stop calling me out for no reason. That would be a good start. I was not involved in the conversation, but you bring me into it.

Manny NEVER calls out anyone unprovoked.

I'm sure the comments Manny had about John Hill a week or two ago were only because John Hill had said something recently to provoke him.

Manny is always the victim, and if he is caught red handed throwing a stone from a glass house, its only because someone else has done it first.

It's douchebag Monday and no one called me?!!!?!??!?!?!?!?

Chad... if it is douchebag Monday, we knew that you would show up, even without an invitation.

Good god, the things I walk in to.......

 

 

 

 

Chad, man you just made me laught out loud.
Classic.

Testicular Torsion Tuesday is the winning post for the day as far as I'm concerned....
Thanks vorare!

i hate tuesdays.

To throw an office space reference.

...a new fucking thread.

I'm suprised they didn't have a round of roster cuts today...maybe tomorrow.

Wow a page 2!!!

I think we need a group hug.

weird...a page 2

You can change the number of comments displayed per page. Mine was set at 300 so I'm still at page one, I assume most of the rest of you had 150.

And to think some people thought we would never reach a page two in comments once Dusty was gone.

Jacos:
"And to think some people thought we would never reach a page two in comments once Dusty was gone"

Dusty will never be gone, he will always be in our hearts...:)

But seriously with Dusty back in the NL Central, I think I have read more quotes from him on TCR than most Cubs.

do walks still clog the bases on page 2?

I'll clog YOU!

pie->Matsui style? Lord I hope not!

Eh, I was just trying to get into the flame-war swing of things.  I'm not very good at it.

 

I'll ____ YOU!!! always seems to be an easy response. 

Wow, so if I change my settings to "10 comments per page" I could have 16 pages of this crap??? The new site rocks!

All sarcasm aside, I do really like the "new comments" feature so you can always tell right where you left off.

I am in awe of the crapticity of tonights chat! I can only express myself through poetry.

Home surfing the 'Net
TCR offers no love
Just pain and sadness

The theme of the day:
"Don't take this personally
But you are a dick"

If this continues
I will have to leave my house
And make some new friends

The theme of the day:
"Don't take this personally
But you are a dick"

That made me laugh out loud. Thanks for that.

I'll take YOU personally!

 

 

God, I don't know how to do this..... 

In Soviet Russia, personally takes you!

/Yakov Smirnov

so whos pitching tomorrow ? lilly

I'll pitch YOU tomorrow!!!!

 

 

Trans, you gots to practice your smack talk. It's more like this:

If I were a pitcher and you were a batter, I would throw the ball intentionally at you -- perhaps even at your head! And if it struck you, you would feel pain and I would feel little remorse. Similarly, if you were a shortstop and I slid into you as you covered second, I would make efforts to lift my spikes up to scrape you, perhaps drawing blood!

(even better in ALL CAPS)

bah, the lot of you are full of it!

BTW:If anyone in the Yahoo League would like to trade me any of the following mentioned above please make an offer.

Brad Hawpe: .291/.387/.539. 29HR, 116RBI
Kelly Johnson: .276/.375/.457, 16HR, 68 RBI
Jim Thome: .275/.410/.563, 35HR, 96RBI
I drafted Dan Uggla
.245/.326/.479, 31HR, 88RBI

These are not necessarily the cream of the crop, but they are hardly the bottom of the barrel either.

TCR - What a country

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