Cubs Get Wood, Torreyes and Sappelt from Reds

The Cubs end up getting OF Dave Sappelt and INF Ronald Torreyes along with LHP Travis Wood for LHP Sean Marshall. Torreyes sounds like the most intriguing prospect of the group, but not a bad haul for a reliever in my opinion. Follow the comments starting from here for some great quotes that Cubster found on the new guys.

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Goldstein says he'd put Torreyes 11th on the Cubs prospect list, thinks Sappelt's ceiling is 4th OF but probably better than Reed.

https://twitter.com/Kevin_Goldstein/status/15...

bunch of quotes from Theo on the trade streaming through

https://twitter.com/JordanBernfield

I like Marshall, but this feels like a good move for us right now. Everything so far feels like part of a plan; don't ask me what plan just yet, but it all feels thoughtful, planned, etc. No complaints so far.

youtube video of the pipsqueak at the plate...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_e...

Would love to hear where these guys will start their seasons. Torreyes seems destined for Daytona's 2B job. Sappelt will likely be RF for Iowa with Brett in CF?

I like what I've read about both guys. Wood's trade value must have been very low for these two to be included.

one of Theo's quotes is that still weighing Garza's trade value vs trying to give him an extension...no rush.

The trade's definitely a win for us, but I'm taking a wait and see on Torreyes. Sappelt's a 4th OF in a good scenario (I mean, since we're rebuilding for 2012, if he has to start, whatever). I know Torreyes has that great hit tool, and good speed, and plays a solid 2nd, but his ceiling isn't all that high (still don't think I'd put him top 15 in the system). I thought Altuve was one of the more overhyped stories last year (most people still think he's an average starting 2nd baseman), and I think Altuve is probably a better talent than Torreyes.

The fact that I'm not as high on Torreyes or Sappelt (or even Wood for that matter) doesn't diminish the fact that this was a good trade and a "win" for us relative to the direction of the organization. The FO certainly didn't believe it could compete now, so Marshall's value to us was minimal, and in return, we get some assets to look at. I could see Sappelt fight for big league time, or be a reserve in Iowa, and Torreyes probably fits into Daytona to start 2012 (although I was thinking Silva/DeVoss/LePage would get 2nd base time there so not sure how that works out .... Silva is probably better in the OF, and I guess they could "slow-play" DeVoss and keep him in Peoria, or play both in the OF).

I would have liked one promising arm from this trade. Oh well, it seems like both players fit the HoyStein mold so we will see how this pans out.

At the very least, we will have collected another short, fast guy.

That's the one thing I don't like. Again, overall, the trade is a win IMO, but I would've preferred going with upside, even if it was riskier.

That said, while I think Wood is a 4/5, end of the rotation, type of guy, if he sharpens up his command and if his change-up stays consistently plus, he could have a chance to be a mid-rotation arm.

The one good thing about adding Torreyes is that I don't think some folks have realized how thin the MI depth charts potentially were for our A+/AA/AAA clubs. The Cerda/Watkins duo will likely fight for time with Lake in AA, and all three have big question marks. A+ shortstop options, on paper, as of now, to start 2012? It's looking like Soto/Soccorro/Valdes/Zapenas types (noted the 2nd base options above). Loss of LeMahieu/Flaherty and Co. hurts the AAA. So adding some depth and a guy who could potentially push into AA by year's end is nice.

How can you know how high Torreyes' ceiling is? He's 19. Have you seen him play? Is it something in the stats? Not trying to go all TRN on you. Just wondering about your thought process on that statement.

I saw him once this year, but in general, I'm never too enthused about talents like that. There are exceptions to the rule, but he has two above average assets, a plus hit tool and above average speed, while being solid/capable defensively at 2nd. He doesn't have an exceptional approach at the plate, so the hit tool is going to have to carry him.

There are always exceptions to the "rule", but an undersized guy with an average approach, but plus hit tool is going to need to show me that he can hit upper level pitching. To be honest, he's going to need to prove himself at every stage.

That's my thinking at least on Torreyes and overall ceiling, and that's me. I'm sure there are more knowledgeable folks that would disagree.

Thanks. I'm not more knowledgeable, that's for sure.

In some ways that is the exact scouting report of Starlin Castro. Hopefully this kid develops along the same lines.

"The FO certainly didn't believe it could compete now, so Marshall's value to us was minimal"

I don't think that what made Marshall expendable was the feeling that we're not going to compete. That doesn't sound like the way Epstein thinks (which is why I thought Kaplan was off-track yesterday when he predicted that everyone except Castro would be gone).

Apart from Marshall, the Cubs had four lefty relievers who earned a good shot at making the roster out of ST. Marshall was obviously the best, but he was the only one you could sell high on. With the glut of lefty relievers, they weren't going to pay Marshall to stay beyond 2012 anyway. Winning aside, the Cubs didn't need him as much as another team might. That's when you trade a guy.

so rare when I agree with VA Phil :)

fair enough, but if the front office thought they could compete now, there would probably be little chance that they deal Marshall, regardless of selling high at peak value or the depth of lefties in the system. They won't come out and say it, but Epstein's history hasn't shown him to deal key assets off a team that he feels could compete the upcoming season, to the best of my recollection of his trade history. If they thought they could compete now, I don't think there's any chance that they move Marshall, as the pen becomes a big question now.

His history offers no comparable. He inherited a decent Red Sox team and continued to field decent to excellent teams throughout his entire tenure. This is currently the worst team, by a large margin, he has ever bossed.

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 12:56pm — toonsterwu

The fact that I'm not as high on Torreyes or Sappelt (or even Wood for that matter) doesn't diminish the fact that this was a good trade and a "win" for us relative to the direction of the organization. The FO certainly didn't believe it could compete now, so Marshall's value to us was minimal, and in return, we get some assets to look at. I could see Sappelt fight for big league time, or be a reserve in Iowa, and Torreyes probably fits into Daytona to start 2012 (although I was thinking Silva/DeVoss/LePage would get 2nd base time there so not sure how that works out .... Silva is probably better in the OF, and I guess they could "slow-play" DeVoss and keep him in Peoria, or play both in the OF).

==================================

TOONSTER: Both Zeke DeVoss and Rubi Silva got extensive workout & game reps at 2B in Instructs, and no question Silva can play there (he has no trouible turning the DP, he has a strong arm, and good range). He even got one start at SS, and looked passable there.

On the other hand, DeVoss is a very poor defensive 2B (stone hands and has trouble going to his right), and looks much more comfortable in the OF (LF more than CF). Defensively I would compare DeVoss to Eric Patterson, except E-Pat has a stronger arm.

I would project DeVoss as the starting LF (and he'll play some CF, too) and lead-off hitter at Peoria on Opening Day 2012, with Silva batting 2nd or 3rd and playing RF, CF, and 2B at Daytona.

I would be surprised if Pierre LePage survives Minor League Camp.

Sappelt should get regular playing time at Iowa, although probably not at the same OF spot every day. He will probably rotate between LF-CF-RF.

BTW, with Sappelt added to the Iowa mix, and with Brett Jackson in CF and Jim Adduci capable of playing all three OF slots, and with both Josh Vitters and Rebel Ridling likely to get some starts in LF (and Vitters will probably get some PT in RF, too, like he did in the AFL), it might be hard for Ty Wright (who is basically just a LF) to survive in the Cubs organization.

"I would be surprised if Pierre LePage survives Minor League Camp."

Boy, this new regime is really tough.

Some Theo quotes on the Marshall trade...

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2011/12/23/woo...

“There’s no doubt our bullpen just got weaker by losing Marshall — you can’t get around that,” Epstein said. “But I think our starting rotation just got stronger, and our farm system just got stronger. If Wood bounces back and he pitches the way he did in 2010, you can argue that maybe we even got better [for] 2012. Certainly, the future just got a little bit brighter.”

Bruce Miles tweet...

"Liked Sean Marshall a lot, but Theo/Jed traded him at peak value, something the Cubs have not done a lot of in recent years."

He musta read my comment yesterday about how it's nice to have mgmt that understands the concept of trading high.

Yes ... Selling at peak value and buying others at low value. Things we haven't seen in a Cubs FO. I am excited to see the old place finally gutted for a redecoration! Also the Cubs were always the idiots buying other people's hot set-up men. And they always seemed to fall short. I believe more than any other position that relievers are mercurial and streaky. To trade one who had been possibly over-worked for two seasons and who was on fire, for three intriguing inexpensive young talents. Woo woo! Veteran relievers are for contenders . . . and are always expensive. Love it!

redecorated with a reliever that hasn't had a sub-4.50 era in 4 years coming off arm surgery, a power hitting no-contact 3rd baseman COL couldn't find a use for, a 32 year old leadoff hitter with a 3 year deal, and a 3-5 slot pitcher.

things are looking awesome.

Get your facts straight: DeJesus signed for two years. The reliever you speak of was probably given peanuts for a one-year deal, which you neglected to mention. Stewart - well, it is what it is. I am anxious to see how he takes to New surroundings as well as how Colvin and DJ pan out.

Signing A-Ram to a 3-year deal you yourself said was nuts.

if i wanted to be mean i could toss in that we still owe a prospect for jed...and if i wanted to be a dick i'd bring up we owe for theo, too..but that's on no one's watch but the old crew.

and fine...it's a 2 year 10m or a 3 year 15m...forgot 3rd was an option with 1.5m payout...muh bad.

that is what has been done this offseason. exciting...woo.

also fwiw...from the last thread...on corpas... "i imagine the deal is sub-1m and not worth worrying about"

still...he's a cub. that was the move that was made. they're slotting him in...

It is intersting that after declining his $16M player option with the Cubs for 2012, that Aramis Ramirez ended up with the contract he got from Milwaukee ($6M in 2012, $10M in 2013, $16M in 2014 with $6M deferred, and a $4M buy-out severance in 2015).

i thought MIL got a nice deal.

if aram wanted 3/36 to be a cub i'd bite...even if I envisioned him at 1st in 2013. dunno how well he'd adapt to 1st as a righty...if he's inept...*shrug* dunno.

i thought it was really nice the cubs suddenly had 16m freed up when aram left...win/win for opportunity for both clubs.

I wonder if Epstein-Hoyer would have been as intent on busting up the Cubs roster this off-season if Aramis Ramirez had opted to return to the Cubs in 2012.

How would they have handled that?

A-Ram would have had a full "no trade" (which he apparently chose not to waive last season when he could have gone to a contender), the Cubs payroll would be at $125M right now (even after the Marshall trade), and without any guarantee that Soriano, Zambrano, or Dempster would waive their NTCs, either.

i was expecting next to nothing when many were expecting aram to return unless (and kinda even if) the cubs worked out an extension that would enable them to defer some of that 16m.

when that 16m suddenly dropped off the payroll that's when i began to wonder what's next.

Don't try to fill the TRN void.

All of crunch's gloomy posts are starting to blend. It's almost like he keeps swinging in the same plane.

: )

you usually need to dangle shiny things around to distract people.

i have no idea who in this lot of players is shiny.

kinda a nice feature, Baseball Prospectus has a transaction browser, updated daily (not yet today though) with links to their analysis of some of the moves...

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/transaction...

Micah Gibbs (Peoria Chiefs 2011 catcher) twitter banter going on (including SDunstonJr) about Torreyes (Torreyes twitter site is empty)...
http://twitter.com/MicahGibbs
---
MicahGibbs
Cubs fans welcome @RonaldTorreyes to the Cubs via the Sean Marshall trade, guy just hits, we couldn't get him out glad he's on our side now!

He only scored 7 runs on you. What? Only 3 games? never mind

RonaldTorreyes 9 for 10 the first 2 games but then he ran into Jokisch haha took advantage of Hamilton's speed in front of him too

Sullivan tweets about the new CBA leading to the logic behind the Marshall deal...

http://twitter.com/PWSullivan/status/15028215...

Bruce Levine article with Theo quotes including stuff about Garza as an asset for trading or long term extension...

"Matt Garza is the type of pitcher you want to build around," Epstein said Friday. "He's a proven top-of-the-rotation guy, a proven performer in the playoffs. I think last year he had his best season, all things being equal

"We aren't in a situation where we have to do anything with Garza," Epstein said. "But generally we are in the business right now of taking our short-term assets and turning them into long-term assets. In the case of Sean Marshall, that ended up happening in a trade. We turned a short-term asset in Marshall into what we hope will be three long-term assets."

http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/738...

As others have noted, I NEVER heard anything like this from Jimbo Hendry or Andy McFail.

as the pen becomes a big question now.
---
As long as we get the 2011 version of Carlos Marmol, isn't the pen a question (good 7th and 8th inning guys or not)?

can't be much worse than the late 2000's with Heilman, Howry, Stevie Eyre as the main setup people.
2011: Marmol (9), Wood (8), Marshall (8), Samardzija (7), Russell, Grabow, Mateo, Stevens...
2010: Marmol (9), Marshall (8), Howry (7), Grabow (L), Samardzija, Russell, Caridad, Berg, etc...
2009: Kevin Gregg, Marmol (8), Heilman (7), Marshall (L)...
2008: KWood (9), Marmol (8), Howry (7), Eyre (L), Wuertz...

Jocketty and Marshall discuss the trade

http://t.co/tBNpcJkU

Are Reds close to adding Andrew Brackman?

“I think it’s pretty close. if it’s not done, it should be done any day. I’m not sure what’s holding it up to be honest.”

----

ha.

btw, he loves CIN and it's impossible for him to hide. he may have been in NY the past many years, but he lives/breathes/sleeps/eats reds baseball.

Bruce Levine calls the Chicago NL team, the Chicago Carps (bottom feeding in 2012)...

Also some interesting speculation on what kind of return Garza might get from the Bluejays

Toronto’s No. 1 pick from 2010, right-hander Deck McGuire, will be the focal point of any negotiations between the Cubs and Jays. The 22-year-old pitcher was a combined 9-5 at three different minor-league levels in 2011. The Blue Jays are convinced he’s near major-league ready.

The Cubs will also inquire about the availabilities of left-handed pitcher Justin Nicolino and power-hitting outfielder Jake Marisnick. Nicolino, a 20-year-old pitcher, was 6-2 with a 1.33 ERA at two minor league levels last season. He allowed just 39 hits in 61 innings. Marisnick is considered a five-tool prospect and hit 14 homers at the lower-A level last year.

http://t.co/kbt2Y25b

cubs 2015!

Maybe the Iowa Cubs will be ready by then.

Could Garza pull a Snider, McGuire, Kyle Drabeck kind of return? I'd send him out if that could be a reality.

they'd probably give snider to anyone who wants him at this point (in a reasonable trade package, anyway...not just give him away)...without power he's nearly useless.

i'd be pissed to see drabeck come here, myself...team already has end-rotation pitchers. his attempt to correct his control issues led to his control issues being the same and making mistakes hanging everything else.

drabeck has upside like hell, but garza is pretty much a sure thing in a 1-2 slot until/unless injuries show up.

I view Snider as a change of scenery guy who has lots of upside. He was rushed and has had mixed results. But guy is still only 23.

Drabek and McGuire are both potential TOR starters.

I really like Garza and would like to see him signed to a reasonable 5 year extension. However he is probably at peak value right now. Waiting to extend him might be the difference between him getting 5/60 or 5/75. Trade wise he will have more value with 2 controlled years instead of one.

Either way, this is the offseason to make the decision IMHO.

I wouldn't mind Snider this year to see if a change of scenery would help...I definitely wouldn't give up Garza on that chance though, unless they're giving up a lot more.

hell, i'd rather have lahair...which is kinda cold and rude to snider who's got more ceiling on him.

lahair's making a hell of a case for himself.

2012 is a shaping up to be a season full of gambles...it's not the gambles that worry me as much as the amount of them and who backs them up if they don't work out.

Agree completely. In my view Snider would be the 3rd piece in that deal. Just a throw in with huge potential upside.

I'd trade Marlon Byrd for him today if the Jays are really that down on the kid. He should still have at least 1 ML option year. So who knows what 450 at bats in Iowa could do for him?

Fri, 12/23/2011 - 9:28pm — Dr. aaron bNew

Agree completely. In my view Snider would be the 3rd piece in that deal. Just a throw in with huge potential upside.

I'd trade Marlon Byrd for him today if the Jays are really that down on the kid. He should still have at least 1 ML option year. So who knows what 450 at bats in Iowa could do for him?

=================================

DR AARON B: Travis Snider has one minor league option left, but would have to clear Optional Assignment Waivers (which are revocable) before he can be sent to the minors.

Snider is still an auto-renewal player, so he would get a split contract that would pay him a much lower salary if he is sent to the minors.

Thanks Phil. What is your opinion on Sniderif I may inquire?

Sat, 12/24/2011 - 12:43am — Dr. aaron b

Thanks Phil. What is your opinion on Sniderif I may inquire?

=============================

DR AARON B: I saw Travis Snider play in the AFL quite a bit about three years ago when he was one of the top 5 or 6 prospects in baseball (that was the year Sam Fuld was AFL MVP), and he was one of the most-impressive hitters in the league. He was ropin' line drives all over the yard.

But something happened to him over the past three years where he too frequently goes into prolonged slumps where he can't hit anything, and then he seems to lose confidence. He also has struggled to hit MLB-quality breaking balls and off-speed pitches, resulting in extremely high K/PA rates.

The problem with a player like Snider is you see where he is at age 20 or 21 and figure he's really good now and just think how good he'll be once he matures, but sometimes prospects don't get better. Sometimes they regress. There is something they can't ovecome, it eventually becomes an achilles heel, and once it does major league pitchers are sure to exploit it.

I would think the Jays are probably at the point with Snider now where they would listen to an offer, something that would have been inconceivable three years ago. (He's a lot like Ian Stewart in that respect). And if the Cubs were to acquire him, it's possible that Rudy J could help him realize his potential. He's only 23 going on 24.

But right now it would appear that Snider is more of a suspect than a prospect, so I doubt that Epstein-Hoyer would give up a lot to get him.

Damn, I need someone to call me a dipshit.

I'd be cool with that, too. I'd also like to see what LaHair can do, but I wouldn't mind having some options besides.

Damn, I need someone to call me a dipshit.

Nope. Not gonna do it. Don't bade us.

Come on, it's Christmas Eve, help a cracker out.

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MERRY DIPSHIT EVERYONE!

That's better, dipshit.

and happy chaka khan to all the juice out there.

Let's hope the cubs don't get Snider. The dude's had chances and it's looking like he's not gonna cut it. I'd rather the change of scenery risk to cost less than Garza.

Jim Bowden in an ESPN insider piece said that the Blue Jays were only willing to part with risky low-level minor leaguers for the Gio Gonzalez.

Maybe the Jays opinion of Garza is higher since he had some success in the AL East. Maybe not.

rotoworld headline fail...

"CIN:Reds get Wood, Sappelt, Torreyes for Marshall"

that would pretty much assure jockety makes the executive wing of the HOF.

Quick poll: Which Cub veteran paid more than $3MM/year will be next to be traded by Jedstein?

A. -- Zambrano
B. -- Soriano
C. -- Dempster
D. -- Marmol
E. -- Byrd
F. -- Soto

I vote D, then F, then B.

i wouldnt be surprised to see byrd gone by the end of spring training, myself.

they'd love to find a taker for soriano which makes me hope someone else signs coco crisp really quickly.

there's a spooky (to me) amount of press out there that believes there's still no way Z returns.

E, A, then hopefully B.

Soriano is going nowhere

I get the feeling that Soto will be the next to be traded, although it may be that Hoyer would hope for a good year for him this summer to increase his trade value. I will be amazed if Soto starts 2013 as a Cub

y.cePEDes (lol, whatever) finally has his DR residency.

now we can actually start hearing real rumors at least. took long enough...

Keith Law has a full article on the Marshall deal titled, "Reds give up a lot for a year of Marshall". KL takes a few pokes at Dusty, saying the plan is to maximize Votto before he shreds every last arm on their pitching staff.

his conclusion: "Wood alone justifies this deal for the Cubs, but the chance that Torreyes becomes an everyday guy turns it into a potential big win."

a subscription is needed and there is an anecdote by KL about Sean Marshall from 2003 when KL was a part of the Toronto draft room...scouts said Marshall (after his Junior year at VCU) did not having the frame to hold up as a starter and that he'd lose velocity from pitching every 5th day, but they didn't discuss his possibilities as a reliever.

His take on Travis Wood...

Wood leads the trio coming back to the Cubs as a solid back-end starter with a chance to be more if he alters his pitch selection. Wood has four pitches, but his worst offering is his four-seamer, which he uses more than all other pitches combined. His 86-88 mph cutter is going to be much more effective because it moves in on right-handed batters, while the four-seamer is flat and too easy to hit in the air. His 74-78 mph curveball is sharp, a two-plane breaker with pretty good depth, and his upper-70s changeup is solid-average due more to action than arm speed.

Wood was overworked by Dusty Baker -- I know, I'm as shocked as you are -- in 2010, throwing more than 200 innings across all levels despite a small frame and no history of pitching past Labor Day, and that also likely contributed to his rough 2011. Managed properly, with more emphasis on the off-speed pitches, he could be a league-average starter, and he has five years of control left, two of them at the minimum salary.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/la...

and regarding Sappelt...

Sappelt looks like a very good extra outfielder. He has a simple swing, short to the ball with good use of his lower half, but he can't handle center field except on an emergency basis, and his size and swing aren't going to produce the power to profile every day in left. He makes a lot of contact, however, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him hit .300 -- but without the OBP or power to make him a regular.

and Bull-Eyes...

Torreyes is a tiny second baseman -- Baseball-Reference has him at 5-foot-9, 140 pounds, and I would bet he's shorter than that -- but he has two above-average tools: hitting and running, with good bat speed and a simple swing for high contact rates. He could end up an average regular at second, but he is probably three full years away from the majors.

Bull-eyes. it's a spanish name so you can't think american on this one. it's Toro (Bull) + Reyes (King). So it's actually Bull-King or King of Bulls.

not sure it was linked but here was the official cubs press release on the trade...

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...

Baseball America's take on the deal...

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/t...

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