My Hall of Fame Vote

The Hall of Fame voting results are going to be announced on Monday and it's expected that Rickey Henderson and possibly Jim Rice will get in. I'm gonna separate my votes into two different ballots, because I can, and because I don't take this stuff too seriously.

My "Keeping the Hall of Fame Standards At the Highest Levels" Ballot

Rickey Henderson, Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines

Rickey's a no-brainer and it helps that his rookie card was the prized possession of my rather pathetic baseball card collection as a kid. I've read enough arguments to convince me Blyleven is being screwed for playing in small markets and bad teams before the Internet and the explosion of media. Raines is in a similar situation, always second fiddle to Rickey Henderson among leadoff hitters and from playing in Montreal; but there wasn't a player I hated seeing more coming up against the Cubs in the 80's. And if you're wondering why I'd put Raines in over Dawson, it's because Raines out-WARP'd Dawson for most of their careers, including - by a a healthy margin - Dawson's 1987 MVP season.

My "There Are Much Worse Players Already In and These Guys Feel Like Hall of Famers" Ballot

Rickey Henderson, Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines, Andre Dawson, Alan Trammell, Lee Smith, Jim Rice

I explained myself on the first three, so let's take a look at the extra four I've included.

Alan Trammell - Again, another second fiddle - this time to Ozzie Smith... but an exceptional defender that was the best player on some very good 80's Tigers teams. Maybe if he did back flips when he ran on to the field.

Lee Smith - Led the league in saves four times and retired as the all-time leader before Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera passed him by...neither of which led the league in saves as many times as Smith. I still can't forgive him for '84 though.

Jim Rice - Because Peter Gammons told me so...honestly, I have no feelings either way on Rice, but if Dawson is good enough, I think Rice is as well.

Andre Dawson -  The player I'm sure most reading this article are concerned with and I think he's as borderline a candidate as there is out there. As I mentioned above, I always felt Tim Raines was the best player on the Expos when I was watching them...of course, I wasn't even 10 when most of that was happening. Dawson's  Cubs career was better than I thought when you look at his stats, and I think I was burned by his rather awful 1989 playoff performance. 

In the end, I think he has a lot of good reasons to be in the Hall of Fame, even if something like 400 HR's and 300 SB's is about the most ridiculous made-up cutoff out there. It's a very similar case to Ron Santo's, a player who never hit the big milestones like 3000 hits or 500 home runs, but dominated for a period of time, brought a lot with his defensive abilities that went unnoticed and had his career cut short by injuries (or in Santo's case diabetes). The reason I'm more adamant about Santo deserving a spot over Dawson is that no reasonable person could argue that Ron Santo wasn't one of the top 10 third basemen of all-time, while there's no reasonable person that could argue that Andre Dawson was one of the top 10 center fielders, top 10 right fielders or top 30 outfielders of all-time.

There's my thoughts, I'm sure others have their own and I would love to hear them in the comments.

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Comments

what no Jesse Orosco?

...I hate listening to baseball talk (hosts and callers) where the universe is centered on NY (AL/NL) and/or Boston.

anyone notice that XM Home Plate radio has gone off that NY/Bos deep end at least on weekends (really getting to dislike Ed Randle and Casey Stern because of this, they are making Dibble listenable...well, not really.)

MLB Network starting to get better.

Joe Migrane has to go though.

Always enjoyed Harold Reynold.

Rob G-

No Jay Bell love?

Tonight 7:00 pm central

Cubs Vs Pirates 4/21/91

Spoiler alert- it doesn't end well.

I will be watching Golden Globes with Chad and the Velvet Mafia.

there's a jerome walton on my television.

ha.

there's also about 10 people at this PIT game (rain).

lulz...erik pappas.

After he retired he played on my 12" softball team.

Was this the game where they set the record for bottom of the 9th comebacks?

I love Andre, but I cannot quite get there with him. The .323 career OBP is an issue for me. I think he was better than Rice, who I would also not vote for, but who I think will be elected.

I agree pretty much with Rob G's first set of selections, except that I would also include Trammell. If I had to predict, though, it will just be Rickey and Rice tomorrow, one in his first year on the ballot and the other in his last possible year on the writers' ballot.

bly is also not a favorite of sportswriters and he wasn't when he was a player, either.

i dunno what bothers me more...bly not being in or how low his %votes have been vs. what i think it should be.

My HOF Ballot:

Ricky Henderson

Players deleted from HOF: Everyone but Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Jimmy Foxx, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Rogers Hornsby, Mickey Mantle, Josh Gibson, Jackie Robinson, Lou Gehrig, Warren Spahn, Stan Musial, Ernie Banks, and Bob Gibson.................and that's about it. The rest are all in the Hall of Very Good Baseball Players.

I assume you were just making a point, but you essentially are saying there hasn't been a great baseball player in the last 30 years besides Rickey Henderson.

which - and I say this with all due respect - is fucking ridiculous.

Yes, for the most part I am making a point that once you let in a Mazeroski, then where do you draw the line. Not to mention Whitey Ford and Gaylord Perry who were both doctors of the baseball. It seems like for most of the past 20 years, they elect at least someone so they can have a ceremony, and what the hell, he's got stats equal to or better than many HOF'ers anyway. I would have like to see the BBWAA set the bar a lot higher a long time ago.

Also, since the 1980's, how do we know who or who isn't on the juice?

they should lock the doors and stop playing the game...

Mmmm... hyperbole... *drools*

As fans, we look at the HOF as some shrine that is to be revered and protected from inferior players. However, the truth is that the HOF is a privately owned business that makes its money by selling tickets and inducting new members. If you reserve the Hall for the greatest of the great, then you'll rarely have an induction ceremony and the HOF will lose all of the free publicity they get every year.

They might have to start calling it the Hall Of Pretty Good soon.

right now it's called the Hall of Fame, which doesn't even mean you have to be pretty good or even good

Under that name, Jim Rice is less deserving than Anna Benson.

I'd like to see her bust in the HOF

Not a bad idea.

I think it's been everywhere else.

Poor Lefty Grove and Christy Mathewson. Forever relegated to the Hall of Very Good Baseball Playesr. At least unlike their counterparts in the HOF, they'll have a catcher to throw to.

Josh Gibson is going to need a day off now and then.

TIm Raines is not a hall of famer.

he's Chadball incarnate...

Sure did play the game the right way. Had an 82% success rate stealing bases. Also had a career .500 OBP in the 8 spot. Only hit into 10 double plays in a season twice in his whole career.

All Chadball cornerstones. I'm putting Raines on my all-time Chadball team.

he had a badass manly nickname, too...one so badass that it took over his 1st name on some ballcards in the 80s.

rock raines. not tim "rock" raines...just rock raines.

http://i16.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/0c/58/a065_1.JPG

we finally got a solid third baseman, Gary Scott!

...Shawn Boskie tomorrow night in St Louis

I ♥ MLB Network.

seriously, im gonna go make babies with it n stuff.

btw, there is pure classic cubbery unfolding right now.

i dunno if paul ass-maker can hold onto this one.

Thom Brennaman doing the middle innings.

Did you hear him wish a happy Easter to a magical 3 year old in Florida who will in 20 years unite nations and cure the blind with his amazing college football ability?

Michael Young of Texas asking to be traded according to Rosenthal...he's pissed that they've asked him to play 3B to make room for a 20 yr old SS prospect named Elvis

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9064498/Sources...

How is Young's fielding?

I wonder what the Ranger would want for him. He's expensive enough that only a team that has urgent need of a starting shortstop that can hit a bit would be willing to give up much in the way of talent.

I don't know what to think of that story. I kinda smell alot of bullshit on it.

They want to move Young to 3rd base? Ok.....but they got one of the top power hitting prospects in the game called Chris Davis who plays 3rd base and 1st base. The same postions that Hank Blalock plays.

In the same article it says they would look to aquire a 3rd baseman. Why in the hell would they need a 3rd baseman when they already got 2 guys that can play the position already on the roster? But it says "young" 3rd baseman like Josh Fields who is 26 compare to Davis who is 22.

I think it would be just much easier to tell the rookie to learn 3rd than piss off your veteran and trade him. He is supposed to be this defensive wizard and would like make the transition pretty easily. And if they wanted to trade Young get some damn pitching down in Texas not another stupid 3rd baseman.

Young has been a second basemen masquerading as a shorstop since Arod was traded. Envision Theriot with less first step quickness, that's Young at short.

does he throw a frisbee too?

Ken Takahashi (39 yrs, 40 in April) is a different lefty pitcher from the ones speculated on in this tribune article from 12/27/08 (Shigeki Noguchi).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs...
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Here's the link from Japanese Baseball/NBP Tracker dated Nov 12th about Takahashi...

http://www.npbtracker.com/2008/11/free-agent-watch...

”There aren’t that many left-handers over there either and that would be a plus for me.”

It looks like teammate Hiroki Kuroda inspired this: ”I’m interested in seeing what American baseball is like. The image of Kuroda has had a big impact. I’m struggling (with the decision)”.

Takahashi enjoyed a resurgent season for the surprisingly competitive Carp, going 8-5 with a 3.50 ERA in 115 2/3 innings. The Carp will certainly miss his presence in the rotation, but team ownership has already promised him a home after he comes back.

Nikkan Sports reports that the Cubs, Padres, and Giants are interested, and quotes a Cubs scout as saying Takahashi could be used out of the bullpen and as an emergency starter.
-----------------

based on the above article indicating the Cubs had interest back then, it could be real. At least it will give Fukudome someone else to chat with during the spring and a possible 2nd lefty and emergency starter...doesn't sound that likely he'd make the pitching staff but who knows.

My question on dawson is this: At what point is it enough? He didn't get 3000 hits or 500 HR's. Ok. Are there HOF players who didn't?
He does have an MVP, and 2 runners-up. He was excellent defensively until his knees just couldn't hold up. He not only hit 438 HR's, but 500 doubles, and 98 triples as well. He played on some good Montreal teams, but on some truly awful ones, and Cub ones as well. His onbase is low. Ok...and the average OBP from 1976-1985 was right around .325. But doesn't the fact that he did everything else so well get considered? For his era?

I have advocated for a while now that the top two finishers in the BBWAA balloting should get into the HOF (regardless of percentage) each year, and the "old timer" who gets the most votes should get into the HOF once every five years.

I know that the HOF has no real MLB affiliation but I don't want it to become the NFL HOF which is a joke.

If he is elected today by the BBWAA, I believe Rice will be the first candidate elected on his last year on the writers’ ballot since Ralph Kiner (in 1975), who I understand to have been an extremely controversial pick at the time.

Kiner had a much shorter career than Rice, but was a better hitter. Split information does not seem to be available for him, but hitting all the home runs he did while playing in Forbes Field is impressive (actually, I have read that the park in Pittsburgh had less ridiculous dimensions when Kiner played, but still.

Rice had a home benefit that was sizeable. Home .320/.374/.546 OPS .920, with 208 homers, away .277/.330/.459 OPS .789, with 174 homers. The league OPS during his career was .744. If he is elected, he would be another player (along with Yaz, Boggs and Puckett) to add to the argument that people just don’t focus on home/away splits other than when arguing against Santo.

Though sabermatically not a super duper star, during his 8 year heyday, Rice was probably the AL's most feared hitter.

My inner circle HoF would be Rock and Rickey.

My 'They're better than other clowns in there' would probably add Byleven and I would probably take out Smith. He just wasn't that dominant. When compared to today's closers (I know who pitch shorter and get more chances), his stats just don't stand up.

Submitted by The Real Neal on Mon, 01/12/2009 - 10:45am.

Was this the game where they set the record for bottom of the 9th comebacks?

==================================

REAL NEAL: The 4-21-91 game featured the largest blown extra-inning lead in MLB history (Cubs scored five runs in the top of the 11th, then the Pirates scored six in the bottom of the 11th).

Phil-

WHat is the record for largest 9th inning comeback?

I wouldn't know where to look,

I watched that one, it was painful. Probably the most frustrating game I watched until October of '03.

I agree on Lee Smith, just kinda makes me wonder...he did do it well for that long. He did have really, really good seasons from 1982-1992 especially. He'll probably never get in.

Henderson
Blyleven
Dawson
Rice
In that order.

Alan Trammell, still getting the short end of the stick.

Submitted by jacos on Mon, 01/12/2009 - 11:00am.

Phil- WHat is the record for largest 9th inning comeback? I wouldn't know where to look,

================================

JACOS: The Detroit Tigers scored ten runs in the 9th to defeat the Milwaukee Brewers 14-13 on 4-25-1901 (that was the 1st year of play for the American League). BTW, the Brewers moved to St. Louis in 1902 and became the Browns, and then the Browns moved to Baltimore and became the Orioles in 1954.

The Phillies scored nine runs in the 9th and defeated the Dodgers 12-11 on 8-21-1990.

Thanks Phil.

I remember that Dodger game because the camer kept showing Lasorda after each run and he finally knocked a coffed mug over.

Funny.

Rickey and Jim Rice are in...

congrats

94.8% for Rickey, Rice 76.4%

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/news/article.jsp...

Dawson goes up to 67% (65.9% last year)
Blyleven 62.7% (61.9% last year)

Lee Smith 44.5%
Raines 22.6% (morons)
Trammell 17.4%

Did Rice hit more home runs in last 15 years?

Congrats to being a Red Sox.

It's funny on MLB Network they are saying "Boston is celebrating" if I remember correctly he was not that popular with the BoSox fans.
I believe Dwight Evans was more popular.

Exactly,

Dawson was twice the player that Jim Rice was

I have to go dig out my Rice rookie card and put it on ebay now.

I think I read somewhere that anyone who gets 65% eventually gets in, so things are looking good for The Hawk.

I checked you are right on with that.
But two needed Vet Commitee to get in-

Cepeda- 73%(top vote)
Appling- 71%(top vote)

And the way the Vet comittee is today could be a crap shoot.

Jim Bunning needed VC help as well, topping out with the BBWAA at 74.2% in 1988 (he was 4 votes short). Curiously, he was on the BBWAA ballot for three years after that and lost a ton of votes, not exceeding 64% and going all the way down to 57.9% in 1990.

Gracie is off the ballot next year.

I don't think he's a HOFer, but I do wish he'd stuck on the ballot for at least a few years.

If Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer, then what about Dave Parker? His numbers are about as good. And he manged to stick around past 35.

When will the ESPN outcry for Don Mattingly and Dwight Evans begin?

Right about 20 years after they start getting intentionally walked with the bases loaded.

Mattingly, if he played for the oyals, wouldn't even be mentioned on HOF day. A good player, too bad he hurt his back.

Dwight Evans was a very soild player, who walked a lot and was a perennial Gold Glove OF. I just don't think that his first 9 seasons were that great. He had a nice run from 1982-1989 however. His counting numbers approximate Rice's, of course, he needed 600 more games to do it.

Also Rice bashers love to point out his home/road splits, but
Dwight Evans' splits are slanted to Fenway as well, which I would post if baseball-reference.com was working right.

If he played for the Royals, he also would've won a World Series.

I don't think there's any question that had Mattingly stayed healthy he would have been deserving. He was a really good player.

Agreed

I've really never looked at Mattingly's career exploits until now. However I think Mark Grace had a better body of work than Matty. Grace's peak wasn't as good as Mattingly. His consistency and overall numbers are better however.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gracema01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml

um..Royals, not oyals...

If he had stayed healthy, yes. Unfortunately, that was not the case.

The 5.2% of the writers that didn't list Ricky on their ballot should have their ballot taken away next year. Then again, 1.5% of the writers didn't vote for Cal Ripken Jr. either, so there is obviously a dufus-driven margin of error here.

I tend to think that Hawk will get in, very much like Rice, toward the very end of his eligibility. But I'm with Rob G on this, Santo's qualifications are stronger because Santo put the numbers up at 3B, not at corner outfield.

I do believe that if the Cubs would have made a serious run in the playoffs this last year, the vote tallies for both Santo and Hawk would have been higher.

Dawson played center field and right field, those two positions bookend third on the defensive spectrum.

C
SS
2B
CF
3B
RF
LF
1B

I forget where pitcher fits in, but I would imagine it's last.

defensive spectrum?

As in most valuable to least valuable defensive positions, though there's debate about SS and C.

there should be debate about 3rd/CF, too if that's the list.

well, unless by "valuable" you mean 'kids out there to choose from in the market that deliver good bat value' that is...if it's by skill/toughness of D i'd put 3rd up there over CF.

I see what you're saying here, Neal. 3 of his 7 All-Star years were as a CF, as well as his ROY year.

But I wasn't talking so much about the defensive value of the position played, I was thinking more about scarcity of offensive production at a particular position. Had Dawson played short-stop and produced as he did, he would be a first-ballot HOF'er. In judging Hawk's credentials, you have to compare his offense and defensive contributions against his outfield peers, and you judge Santo's credentials in comparison to his 3B peers.

"you have to compare his offense and defensive contributions against his outfield peers, and you judge Santo's credentials in comparison to his 3B peers."

I have to disagree here. You should be evaluating his contributions against players "all time" more heavily than against his peers. Dawson shouldn't be punished because he played RF at the same time as some other Hall of Fame candidates, just like Santo shouldn't be rewarded because he's not playing today (when his peers would have included Jones, Wright, A-Rod, AramRam etc).

Is there a ROY G BIV mnemonic for the defensive spectrum?

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