There’s Still A Pulse….

GAME 107 IN-GAME DISCUSSION THREAD [PARACHAT] CHICAGO CUBS (54-52) @ PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES (55-52) CITIZENS BANK PARK, 6:05 pm CDT, TV: CLTV, CSN
Robinson Tejeda, RHP
2-2, 2.95 ERA
42/39 K/BB, 2 HR in 55.0 IP
Jerome Williams, RHP
3-4, 4.61 ERA
36/20 K/BB, 8 HR in 56.2 IP
LF *Matt Lawton SS #Jimmy Rollins
CF Jerry Hairston CF *Kenny Lofton
1B Derrek Lee 2b *Chase Utley
RF *Jeromy Burnitz RF *Bobby Abreu
3B Aramis Ramirez LF Pat Burrell
2B *Todd Walker 1B *Ryan Howard
SS #Neifi Perez 3B David Bell
C Michael Barrett C Mike Lieberthal
P Jerome Williams P Robinson Tejeda
How nice of the managers to put out the same lineups as last night, makes putting together these previews much simpler. Unfortunately for the Cubs, Jerome Williams doesn't handle the lefties as well as Big Z normally does. Something to watch for in tonights game. I wasn't witness to the cardiac moments of last nights game, but by all accounts it seems the Cubs staved off flatlining the season for at least another day. Today they face what appears to be a rookie having quite a nice little season when you look at that ERA. Then you look at his K/BB ratio and the fact that he's walking 6.4 per 9 innings and you realize he's ripe for a drubbin'. Sure he seems to keep the ball in the park (no small feat at Citizens Bank) as well as probably being the benefactor of some outstanding defense. But if there was ever a night for the Cubs offense to remain patient at the plate, tonight would be the night. Go Cubs!
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Comments

Tejeda has allowed just 38 hits - including only two homers - in 55 innings, but has also walked 39 batters and hit seven more. (ESPN)

Cubs have to be patient, by which I mean that these guys are probably going to make Tejeda look like a Cy Young candidate by swinging at everything.

woo...aram makes the lineup after coming up slightly gimpy yesterday!

hope he's up to the job...macias is the only backup out there *shudder*

Same line-ups same results hopefully (except for the bottom of the 9th for sure). Hopefully they win in blowout fashion because it will be bullpen roullte w/o Dempster tonight.

Robinson Tejada is all heat. Hits upper 90s. Absolutely no control though. He's kind of like the starting version of Roberto Novoa.

hope he's up to the job...macias is the only backup out there *shudder*

Of course you could make Neifi the good back up he's supposed to be and let Ronny C get some playing time.

But that would assume Dusty wouldn't WANT to get Maciass in the game.

ronnie cedeno wishes he could play 3rd...

seriously, he's not gonna be a utility player at this point in his development...no need to take a kid like that and make a serious run at teaching him 3rd with as good as the D is coming along at SS...

fontenot's taking macias's role if it dont come from outside the organization as it stands...

I didn't mean having Cedeno play 3rd. I ment play him at SS, freeing up Neifi to be the back up at 3b.

I'm sure MaciASS has his batting gloves on already because he knows he's going in if Aramis farts the wrong way tonight or if he's on second with 1 or no one out.

Oh and by the way, he will undoubtedly play because he's usually the first PH off the bench. At least he's better than Holly right now.

Sort of off-topic: Does anybody have Comcast SportsNet Chicago (Ch. 37) but does not have access to Comcast SportsNet Chicago Plus on their cable systems?

This is my predicament. I did not even think this was possible. Thankfully, there is only one more game on Comcast Plus the rest of the season (and three more games on WCIU).

Nice one two three inning with plenty of swings. Exactly what they needed. I mean, don't these guys go through a scouting report.

juicy post-deadline rumosr...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bbw/columnist/...

Reds Owner nixed a deal that would have sent 3 minor leaguers from the White Sox for Griffey Jr. They said they'll revisit talks if Griffey clears waivers. (Which he should, no one is going to risk being stuck with that contract)

The WSox and Pads plan to trade Burroughs for Joe Borchard this week. (Rotoworld doesn't think Burroughs would pass through waivers and I agree)

Thome will certainly pass through waivers, now will someone take on that contract.

The Marlins rejected the Phillies offer of Vicente Padilla, Lofton and Urbina for Burnett and Pierre. (Geez, can't imagine why?)

Mitterwald,

Did you try ch. 38 which on my cable is CLTV?

Mitterwald, if you have RCN cable it's on channel 51, if it helps at all

Mitterwald-

DO NOT FIND THE GAME ON TV... I REPEAT... DO NOT FIND THE GAME ON TV. If you're a cub fan it's hard to watch right now.

The header for this one is "there's still a pulse" Look's like she's flatlining right now.

In NW Illinois we don't get comcast sports plus any time EXCEPT when the Cubs are on it. They turn ESPN news (or something like that) into comcast sports plus.

Great start, 6 pitches to get out of first. Comes back to reality in 2nd with 29 pitches, gives up 3 runs and commits an error that turned out to hurt. WTG williams, looks like a long night for cub fans the way this offense has been going. 3 runs? Good Luck!

Somebody put the dam ball in play will ya? 3 up 3 down, 3 k's. Looks like the cubs are in midseason form tonight. O wait, it is midseason. It has to be a misprint that cubs are top 5 in National league in hits, homers and team avg!

How does a pitcher with more than a walk per inning pitched make the cubs look so bad? 5 Ks no BB?

This is brutal, but tomrrow's line up will be more brutal because Blanco is going to catch and Macias is probably going to play 3rd to rest Aram. You know he is going to do that.

Gabe, its the Cubs

I know Chad but still honestly please. We're not THIS BAD. But does it seem like to anyone else that we beat clemens, beat willis, beat Morris, should've beat Carpenter but we can't handle any guys that have 6+ ERAs.

I know Chad but still honestly please. We're not THIS BAD. But does it seem like to anyone else that we beat clemens, beat willis, beat Morris, should've beat Carpenter but we can't handle any guys that have 6+ ERAs.

OIff-topic side-note on the Fire Dusty campaign (perhaps to follow on Oct. 3 with the Fire Dusty champaign):

Lots has been made on these forums about the Cubs eating Baker's salary, ie, unwillingness to, for reasons of not wanting to pay him and go hire someone else. Of course, he's going to get that money, whether he's going to Wrigley every day or not. But why should he be going to Wrigley? If MacPhail and Hendry watch as many Cub games as the rest of us, it clearly must've crossed someone's mind at some point in time that the Cubs are being managed out of ballgames.

But still, the question is, how do you replace Dusty without adding additional salary? How about a player-manager? (By the way, has there been one since Rose?) My nomination: An experienced, $9 million SP whose right arm isn't worth quite that much any more ó but I'd bet his brain is. Give him a 1-year deal with nominal salary to go along with his player's deal/salary. I mean, it's one season, and it might be the only alternative. It couldn't be any Worse, could it?

Let me add: Pitching coach should have the power to pull him if he gets in trouble.

nice thought but forget it,. Maddux is probably the smartest player in baseball and he is an enourmous help to fellow pitchers but he would not be managerial
material at this time. Would interfere with ability to
be one of the boys, pull off stupid pranks and tell
endless fart jokes. It is part of who he is in the clubhouse. He needs to spend his time between starts
shagging balls and practicing sacrifice bunts ( if only
a few of the OTHER players would do this). Maybe a decade from now when he is retired but not now

However I would be strongly in favor of "poaching"
Mike Maddux from the Brewers for next year. Best
pitching coach in baseball

Jessica

Maddux takes himself out of games anyway so that is not a problem. How do you score 1 run w/bases loaded and 0 outs. This offense sucks!

Jessica,

That is how Guillen is with the Sox and they have the best record in Baseball.

Bases loaded nobody out and get 1 fkn run? WTF??? I swear there is not way any other team is baseball is worse than the cubs at gettin guys home from 3rd. All the rippin here on Macias and he ends up being the guy to atleast put the dam ball in play. Absolutly horrible how often a major league player, if thats what u call these guys, strikes out and don't even put the ball in play with a guy on 3rd and less than 2 outs. Barrett has to be one of the worst. Shit, pay me millions to whiff will ya? Again, PUT THE DAM BALL IN PLAY!! Just horrible, and i bet Dusty gave Barrett the ole pat on the back and said get em next time. FK that, make contact or im gettin in your ass, isn't that why you get paid to play a hobby? This team is totally useless and its not just the dam manager!!

The cubs offense is actually consistent. Be it a rookie pitcher...be it an all star pitcher .. be it a pitcher who gives a lot of walks etc etc we consistenly score 1-2 runs/game nothing more. This offense is extremely pathetic..
-C

while dusty sucks balls often, the players have been just as bad. Now we're into our pen because Barrett couldn't come up with a hit.

Burnitz is HORRIBLE! And you know what else people? All that talk about the tripple crown and the huge lead in batting avg for D Lee, well its about over with. He has stunk so bad the last week and a half that he is only a very small margin ahead of Pujols for avg now. I bet he don't win any of the 3 categories let alone all of them.

Amen..WiCubFan..this team has been performing miserably. With the payroll we got we have the right to demand more from the players. As you said it becomes a responsibility of the manager to see that the players perform to their potential. A team/player can have an occassional slump but this kind of consistent failure to produce runs is inexplicable.
-C

Williams is pulled after only 4? Albeit with 70 pitches through 4.

Anyone think Glendon Rusch is getting "stretched out" for a return to the rotation.

Couldn't have said it better Cubby78! Cubs don't stand a chance of making the playoffs and even if they did, u can't win playoff series without putting the ball in play and the Cubs put the ball in play with the worst of them. Think Angels and Marlins and why they won the World Series titles they did. They weren't the most talented teams in either series. They were simply the best teams in Baseball those 2 years at putting the ball in play and striking out the least. How many more games would the Cubs have won and how many more runs would they have scored if they simply didn't strike out all the time in clutch or even just a sac fly situation? Think how Florida beat us in '03, because we had these supposedly stud pitchers that struck people out at a higher rate per 9 innings than any staff in history, well guess what, florida put the ball in play and out pitchers were mere avg pitchers at the end of that series. But Beckett looked great against us, why u ask? Because the Cubs don't put the ball in play and its been a consistent problem since Dusty arrived. I know he's not hitting, but cmon, if the same shit happens for 3 years, its called a trend people and trends have alot to do with how a team is handled by its manager. Trends can even be good, like playing fundemental baseball now and again!

Our pitcher's need those Tom Emanaski videos!

Talking to a buddy of mine who told me the old dustbag is great because at least we're winning now. I had to remind him that with a 100 mil payroll, he could win 90 games in the major leagues. This team is absolutely underperforming and the finger can be pointed all around except for at Prior, Lee, or Z. IMO

another k. walker has to be one of the worst situational hitters on the team. Well, Barrett is pretty bad too.

bARRETT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How about a Barrett for Irod trade. Barrett is bad on defense and his bat does not make-up for it. We will probaly have to throw in a AA pitcher but its something that needs to be explored in the winter if he wants out of detroit. A dumb decision works out again for Baker.

Holly finally used in his proper role.

OMFG, i just been bitchin about this very situation earlier. Runner on 3rd less than 2 outs and the cubs have to, and i mean have to be the worst fkn team in MLB at gettin that guy home. OMG this has been a consisten theme since the 2003 Playoffs as far as i can recall. Im sure it was a problem in the 03 season as well, seeing how we got lucky to even make the post season. But Barret will fly out his next at bat, watch! This makes me sick to my stomach, watching the same SHIT every fkn day/night. I swear this is horrible. No longer can the fans blame the trib for not spending. This team is so far superior on paper to other teams with better records. I mean cmon, we are like what, 3 games ahead of the brewers. Yea thats rite people, i said the BREWERS!

Exactly gabe, and look he came through! OMG it must be freezin down under cuz the cubs got a clutch hit!

Nice job by Holly!!! Clutch hit off the bench....which is how he shoould be used, if anyone is taking notes..

I agree Dusty, as Gabe had stated earlier, finally used proper. Baker, Walker and Barrett should thank him for bailing them out. Now hold your breath and watch the pen in action!

Baker had the luxury of bonds and kent in SF but couldn't stop the fighting or stop himself from bickering with the front office.

He comes here and gets the pleasure of Wood and Prior who virtually carry the team into oct, not to mention Z's emergence. but as soon as some real managerial skills are needed in 2004 what happens? Sosa is disgruntled, Alou and Merck are unhappy and he is firing off at an announcer?

Where did he get this great reputation as a manager from? He's been blessed with talent and high payrolls his whole career. Let's see him do it in Oakland or Minnesota.

But why didn't Dusty use Murton to PH when Cormier came in?? Stupid double standard by Dusty.....

One theory i have gabe, is he's a "Players" manager, meaning the players do what they want, when they want and there are no re-percussions. How many "Players" managers actually win titles? Its because of no dicipline and lack of fundemetals. He'll always attract talent where he goes because of this, but he will never manage a team to its potential. I never paid much att. to him in SF and i was rooting heavily for Anaheim in the WS, but now after seeing him often for 3 years, i'd like to re-watch Game 6 of the WS when the Angels came back from down 5-0 in the 8th to force game 7 and see how he managed it down the stretch and see if it was his total lack of in game skills that cost SF that game.

Every move Dusty has made today so far has paid off. Macias with an SF, Holly with 2RBI, and Williams being pulled with 3 solid innings of relief work.

But yes, this team still is no more than mediocre all around.

Bless our LOOGY

Murton needs to get on in front of Lee.

Am I reading this right?

Lawton stikes out to end the inning. Leaving Hairston to lead off the following inning.

Dusty double switches Holly in for Hairston, leaving the pitcher's spot to lead off!!!

In Dumbass we Trust!!!!

Update:

Lee .357
Pujols .341

Much closer than i thought i might get this late in the season. Lee really slumping. Nice walk though, team player and a stand up guy. One of the few we have.

Blue-
Watch the game before you comment. Know the situation....

Great call Bleeding, didn't think about that myself, but yea, WTF was he thinkin? Guess we'll have to wait til the post game conference and hopefully somebody will bring that up.

I'm following the game via internet tonight.

Please fill me in on why it was a good idea to double switch to have the pitcher's spot lead off?

Its going to be great later in the game when we need a pinch hitter and have no one left on the bench.

Ohman was only going to go 1 inning, and since Hairston got hurt he was going to have to PH anyways.

You guys are amazing....

O yea ur rite Manny, forgot he got hurt. I guess i should put this down, i've had enough! LOL

No manny you are amazing. Defending the double switch that leaves the pitcher to bat first. Cant you even admit once that this qualifies for a WTF?

If Hairston was hurt and had to leave the game, then, and only then, does the move make sense.

So what happened to Hairston that he had to leave the game?

Still all in all not a bad job by Williams. He had one bad inning and made an error that although wasn't un-earned, still allowed a run to score that would not have. The trade for hawkins is looking more and more like another Hendry steal in my opinion.

Gabe-
No, everyone on the chat, there are currnetly 18 of them all agreed with the move. You guys just try and pin everything against Dusty no matter what. He does things that deserve critisism, but this ain't one. Follow and understand the game situation and you will know why.

Guys, it was not a double switch.
Holly went in to bat for the Pitcher as a pinch hitter leaving him in the 9th spot, then when it was determined that Hairy couldn't go, they needed to replace him.

Come on guys, seriously...you have to chill out as you are letting your hatred of dusty get in the way with rationality.

Blue-
I am sorry if you were not following the game on TV....

He hurt his right elbow diving for a ball. No word on extent of injury.

I have to agree with Manny the move was OK. Holly got the big hit so he should stay in the game and why would you take out Lawton. Come on Novoa throw a damn strike to Liberthal.

Uh o, here comes another interesting inning from the pen. back to back singles. Novoa throws hard, but everything seems to be rite in the zone to hit. 2 on 1 out, cross ur fingers. ;)

Wow was holding my breath on that one! one more out novoa, CMON

Cmon Novoa, get the ball up and out of the dirt, now a hit scores 2!

I apologize I didn't know he was hurt.

Whew!!! Going to the ninth guys, another nail biter. Sure has been a wild last 7-10 games with almost every game coming down to the 9th inning or later.

Anyone find it odd that no homers have been hit in this series?

Macias 0-0, RBI
Holly 1-1, 2RBI
Bullpen, 4IP, 7K, 0ER

every move has paid off so far. Does Dusty get any credit for that?

derrek lee has 44 extra base hits with no one on base. What a waste! (not dusty's fault)

Hey adam, a squirrel finds a nut every now and then. A few good moves don't make up for all the terrible ones, and it certainly don't mean i want dusty to remain as cub manager beyond this season.

Baker was only giving Ohman 1 inning: Manny was right...

I'm oK with the moves so far tonight...

I've complained about Barrett before. During the winter I suggested the Cubs sign Damian Miller AND Barrett. Barrett could be a super sub. P/t catcher, Lf, 3b, 1b, ph. His game calling is very often questionable. His stick is good, especially when rested.

Adam,

Yes he gets some credit but most of it is used up on paying off the stupid moves he's made in the past. You see, I'm not a "what have you done for me lately kind of guy" I still despised Neifi Perez when he hit the infamous STL grand slam, still think Macias is worthless even though he had the ability to fly out (wow), and still think baker has mismanaged the team and abused our pitching staff

Wagner needed a whole 7 pitches for that inning! I have to agree with you all the way Gabe.

fair enough...I still want Dusty gone too (although it isn't going to happen before his contract is up, unless he takes another job under mutual agreement)
I just want to make sure that for one day, he gets a little credit where credit is due.

Damian Miller, are you serious? The goal should be to get Barrett and some talent out of town in the winter to get Pudge onto the team. Imagine this line up:

CF- Johnny Damon
SS- Nomar Garciaparra
1B- Lee
C-Pudge
3B aramis
RF- burnitz
LF-murton
2b- todd walker

rotation: prior, z, maddux, hill and Free Agent

dat aboy remmy, we luvs them lead off doubles in the 9th.

I know it's old but I just read scoop jacksons article on ESPN calling my whole city racist. Ouch. what a moron.

say goodbye to Remlinger...

he DFA after blowing this game; Williamson takes his spot

0-4 Rollins leads off with a Double against Rem. Talk about a waste of money sittin around the clubhouse! Rem deff has to go after this season. I don't think this one is gettin past the 9th folks, see ya for the next nite game!

Cubs probably should've listened to baker after 2003 and kept lofton in center and got rid of Kpat while his value was still high.

Would the pitchers PLEASE cover first base? Please?

Sounds like 3 times today the pitcher hasn't properly covered first...no excuse for that.

Turn out the lights, the party is over. 1-2 count on lofton, lefty on lefty and they still allow him to move the runner? Nothing amuses me about this team anymore, every time u think u've seen it all, just wait till next game. 1 out, sacs full? got lucky last night, not 2 in a row!

I hope this interntionally walking the bases loaded doesn't backfire on us like it did for St. Louis.

Player A .272/.335/.469 2005 Salary: $3,133,333
Player B .296/.306/.463 2005 Salary: $8,000,000

+.5 points to whoever cares enough to name them.

The pitchers not covering first are gonna give Santo a heart attack.

Yeah Remmy probably ran himself out of town.

This is the dumbest team I've ever seen.

OMG Weutz is gonna walk the winning run home. 2nd game in 2 nights ending with a walk off walk and only 7 times in history! lmfao @ cubs

wtf wtf wtf no tv here wtf is that????

OMFG Barrett.

HUGE PITCH BY WUERTZ

Barrett? They steal home on the Manager and coaching staff.

MICHAEL BARRETT IS A DAMN IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rollins was halfway to home!!!

FREAKIN MORON!!!

TELL ME WHO IN THE F DOES THIS HAPPEN TO????? STEALS HOME!!!!!!! SQUEEZE PLAYS!!!!!!!!! I SERIOUSLY F.ING QUIT. DAMN IT ALL TO HELL

Remember this game...they have just outdone themselves. Latroy Hawkins hitting the runner in the helmut was the previously dumbest ending a baseball game has ever had. This is #1

If this team makes the playoffs. Remember this game to keep things in perspective. They don't deserve to be in the playoffs.

ok is there any human being left ...over there who thinks its not time to fire Dusty Baker??? Any one????

an epic fundamental error by Barrett. I mean there is no excuse for losing on an unnecessary rundown.

cAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT HAPPENED ON THE PLAY???

What happened? I don't have it on TV?

Well--in all honesty, lately the wins the Cubs have gotten have been because of the other team choking.....looks like the law of averages just swinging back to bite the Cubs in the ass tonight.

Lately they've been winning this way instead of losing this way.

Yes, someone explain for those of us that don't have TV, weren't listening to the audio or in the parachat?

Rollins was 3/4 of the way home WTF was Barrett thinking. He should start packaging for Detroit right now!!!

CWTP - no steal of home. Passed ball on strike three. Rollins broke for home and stops 1/2 home. Barrett throws to third instead of running him back to 3rd that's Barrett not the manager or coaching staff and it's not a stolen base.

What happened?

Batter struck out...the ball got away from Barrett and Rollins headed home...stopped...Barret ran him back but not very far...threw to Ramirez...throw was off just a bit...Rollins runs home..Ramirez throws to Barrett slightly off...and Rollins scores

CWTP - it wasn't a steal of home. Passed ball on strike three. Rollins broke for home and stops 1/2 home. Barrett throws to third instead of running him back to 3rd. That's Barrett not the manager or coaching staff and it's not a stolen base.

Score Summary
............
9th Rollins stole home.

No shit? I mean, seriously? Is it real?

Barrett now equals Bare ASS as in... my bare ass shows when I'm caught with my pants down.

CBS Sportsline just said

"Burrell struck out swinging"

so I cheered.

Then it said

"Rollins stole home."

And that was that.

Can someone clarify a rule for me? If the bases are loaded, and Burrell strikes out on a past ball and runs to 1st, does that make it a force play at the plate? If not, what happens if nobody throws to 1st and there's 2 guys standing on the bag?

I dont know if we are going to make it to playoffs or not..but if we go down then lets at least go down with some dignity and decency. My vocabulary is limited to explain tonight's outing. Such an amateurish, callous idiotic performance. Its humiliating to all the thousands of cub fans around the world and through out all these years WE DONT DESERVE TO see a performance like this.

The responsibility that the coaching staff bears is that they just didn't play fundamentally sound baseball today. Three different pitchers failed to cover first base, the catcher's first instinct was to throw the ball instead of running at the baserunner, which is what I was taught to do in HS baseball when you have a runner between bases. Where are the fundamentals, and who's teaching them?

You have got to be fuckin kidding me????? OMG, im just done, so fkn fed up with this BS! Does this happen to any other team in baseball?? It can't possibly! I don't care who you put in a cub uniform, when they put it on, its like instant DUMBASS!!!!!! OMFG im sick to my dam stomach! like i said earlier, just when you thought u seen it all with this team, watch tomorrow nite it'll be something else amazingly stupid that costs them the game!

I don't see anyone who has blamed Baker for that last play....maybe I'm blind, but I don't see anyone.

The worst part is, he has a FORCE AT HOME with the ball in the dirt!

all he has to do is step on the f***ing plate and then throw to first and the inning is over.

It was a drop 3rd strike Rollins is halfway to 2/3 down the line and Barrett throws it to third and rollins scored.

WES

Can only take first if it is open, the strikeout can't create a force at another base.

Adam

you're right, this is barretts prob

WESCHC, if the strikeout had been the third out, they would have had a force at the plate. Since it was only the 2nd out Burrell couldn't go to first.

So then, Burrell can't advance to first on the K at all? It's a strike out and there are just 2 outs with the bags juiced?

Can someone clarify a rule for me? If the bases are loaded, and Burrell strikes out on a past ball and runs to 1st, does that make it a force play at the plate? If not, what happens if nobody throws to 1st and there's 2 guys standing on the bag?

No...with runners on base the catcher does not need to catch the ball for strike 3. ..it was not a force out at the plate...it would be treated as a stolen base with a tag needing to be applied.

I dont know if we are going to make it to playoffs or not..but if we go down then lets at least go down with some dignity and decency. My vocabulary is limited to explain tonight's outing. Such an amateurish, callous idiotic performance. Its humiliating to all the thousands of cub fans around the world and through out all these years WE DONT DESERVE TO see a performance like this.

"HOW THE FUCK DO YOU BLAME THAT ON DUSTY...you guys have completely lost your fucking minds."

no way!

while i like dusty's masterful coaching making rusch strike out all those guys earlier in the game, i saw with 100% accuracy dusty giving barrett the "start sucking now" sign.

being as dusty controls every player's action from the dugout with a cool custom joystick, its totally his fault. i really don't understand how you don't see this.

I dont know if we are going to make it to playoffs or not..but if we go down then lets at least go down with some dignity and decency. My vocabulary is limited to explain tonight's outing. Such an amateurish, callous idiotic performance. Its humiliating to all the thousands of cub fans around the world and through out all these years WE DONT DESERVE TO see a performance like this.

that's not true dbt. no force at home on the play

UNFKNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!! Your rite Cubby78, nice call. We don't fkn deserve this stupidity out of a 100 million dollar payroll! Im truely at a loss for words and i vow to never watch another game until they weed out all the DumbAsses! Cmon, like you all are saying, thats HS shit! I played organized 12 inch competitive tournament softball for 16 years and i seen some dumb shit, but this tops the cake for a MLB team/player.

There was no force out, but as any minor league coach will tell you, there is also no way Rollins can be allowed to score on that play. Crawl down the third base line if it requires it, but don't throw the ball until he commits to going back to third base.

Can someone clarify a rule for me?

if a batter strikes out with first base occupied (as in this case), and there is a passed ball on strike three...the batter is out and can not try to advance to 1st base. But the other men on base can advance at their own risk... which is what happened.

Somebody must have coached Barrett in how to do a rundown. You hold the ball and run directly at the runner until he commits... Not until the fans committ suicide.

Dumb and uninspired baseball.
Too bad there is not a position on the baseball coaching staff that is capable of telling the pitchers they are lazy and position players not to play deep with one out and the winning run 90 feet away and how to run a baserunner back to the bag.
Only if...

As everyone clearly pointed out, Burrell was out and there was no force play. Rollins baited Barrett into throwing to third. Lee was visibly upset, throwing his hands up in disgust.

Make that 4 pitcher not covering first: Williams, Rusch, Ohman, and Remlinger didn't in the 9th, although Lee just got there in time to beat Lofton.

That might have been the weirdest ending to a game since Ricky G fell down around third and somehow scored in the Hernanzdez throws out McMichael game in August of '01.

crunch - I agree with you. Adam you need to understand that if a team is consistenly failing coz of fundamental mistakes then some one higher up is not doing their job period. The players obviously are not doing the basics right but what the heck the managers, coaches etc etc are paid millions for?? chewing on toothpicks ??? Damn tonights game is not even NLCS game 7 that you can mitigate the blame to nervousness. These mistakes in the spirit of the game are unpardonable and no excuse is worth it.
-C

cubby78...if you agreed with me you wouldnt say what you just said.

Right, cubster. I don't get where everybody thinks he could've just touched home. First base has to be open.

My wife, I'm not kidding my wife, knew what to do in a run down when I asked her about it when I was explaining what happened in the game. My wife played softball until she was fourteen.

one minor consolation...my crystal ball sez:

The cubs wouldn't have scored another run until the 31st inning.

So Dusty's happy cause that would have not been good for his bullpen.

Remember this as Remlingers last game as a Cub.

How it is Dusty's fault. It is because the player's make stupid mistakes and Baker does nothing. Send Barrett to AAA for 10 days and see if does it again.

I equate teams lacking fundamentals to a young player like Corey Patterson struggling and the manager not giving him direct instructional coaching to help him in his deficencies. Dusty figures at this level it isn't his job to coach the young players and it isn't his job to instruct the fundamentals of the game.

Dusty doesn't think it is his job....others disagree.

*all* ball players know how to do the things they didnt do tonite.

these 30-40 year olds know better.

david bell also knows better than to play a ball backhanded off his hip.

that barrett thing was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of line...beyond laziness, beyond anything...it seems he was trying for a double play, but whatever communication he had going on aram wasnt picking up on it...and reguardless, if that was his point, his throw was pure ass.

Someone in the chat room, who is one of the most arrogant pricks on this board, is trying to convince 20 people in the chat that all Barrett needed to do was touch home.

That is dead wrong, and it's really a fundamentally basic rule in baseball

With a runner on first, less than 2 outs, if a batter strikes out, he CAN NOT ADVANCE. The batter is out, and then the runners are at their own free will. There is no force at home.
If Barrett steps on home, nothing happens. The batter is still out, and then the runners are safe at their bases.

IF there are 2 outs, then the batter may advance, and then the catcher needs to step on home, or throw for a force at any base.

But there were not two outs. There was 1 out, the batter struck out, and the player gets credit for stealing home as he would need to be tagged out to record the final out.

Look, I don't mind if people get the rules wrong. I get several confused at times too. But when you are nothing more than a bitter asshole on these boards, thinking you know everything about the game, you damn well better shut the hell up and listen to the 15 people that do know the rules instead of continuing to lash out and tell other people they are wrong and don't know the rules.

You made a fool out of yourself. Go read the fucking rule book.

"hat barrett thing was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of line"

by that i mean, way outta line by barrett...it was a stupid stupid stupid play

Dusty doesn't control whether or not barrett is in AAA which he won't be btw. However, dusty's teams have lacked the fundamentals but I don't remember any cubs team really having any fundamentals besides Sandberg, Dawson, Grace, and Maddux.

"Someone in the chat room, who is one of the most arrogant pricks on this board"

...??? I don't use the chat room...?

This is not Dusty's fault, clearly. Any male not in diapers (young or old) should be able to execute a run down with better success than Barrett. Hell, if Barrett has been immediately frozen upon picking up the ball and returning to the plate the result would have been better.

That being said, clearly there is something not right in the way these players are dealt with when fundamental mistakes are made. By the second time a pitcher didn't cover today, somebody should have been saying something. What appears to happen with the Cubs under the Baker regime is that Dusty "goes to bat" for his players after mistakes like this instead of reminding them that they are major league baseball players and they are functioning on a level lower than that of a beer league softball team.

As mentioned in a previous thread, you can't blame Baker for any actual event that takes place on the field (outside of putting people out of position), but you can blame him for some of the players apparent apathy and lack of devotion to the fundamentals.

crunch..your double play guess ..if its true will be dumbest thing I would have ever heard in my life. I think you and Dustbag are striking a chord in deciding the strategy. Please tell me again that you are just kidding.

reality check again everyone....

Lately there have been a LOT of games the Cubs have won in the 8th or 9th or extra innings in which they scored because of the other team choking......look at it as they have won many more games than they've lost in which a team has choked. If you they only recorded games in which the losing team choked...the Cubs would have a winning percentage better than the St. Louis Cardinals. This was a game that was bound to happen eventually--they've won way too many of these types of games lately...it was bound to happen.

Bill...dont you see 'lack of apathy' and 'lack of devotion' are actually leading to those 'actual events' on the field. I see there is a connection.

A catcher must be smarter than that...there is really nothing a manager can do about that...A major league manager can't teach that....it's not something you can practice at this level.

For once, for crying out loud, blame a player. Again, what happens when you blame the manager for the players...is you assume everything is fixed with a new manager. In a situation like this, that just isn't the case.

Barrett had a horrible game. Couldn't get runners in from 3rd with 1 out twice, and made an ultimate boneheaded play. You change the manager, you get the same result.

What Rollins did was what a highschooler is taught to do, bait a fielder to make a dumb play...he did.
You can't credit Philly's manager for that, and you can't blame dusty for the boneheaded mistake on the other end.

Do you guys know what was cool about 2003? It was that all the shit that usually happens to us, started happening to the Astros and the other teams. For once in my life I knew what it was like to be a fan of a team that is playing the Cubs.

These past two seasons have been unpleasant reminders that WE ARE THE CUBS

"crunch..your double play guess ..if its true will be dumbest thing I would have ever heard in my life. I think you and Dustbag are striking a chord in deciding the strategy."

1- what reason you got for barrett to think of throwing that ball?

2- what the HELL did dusty have to do with that play in the least shred of instance?

"...??? I don't use the chat room...?"
I know, That's why I specifically said someone in the chat room...it wasn't you.

I don't care about someone who is confused about the rule and asking for clarfication, I do that all the time. I care when some jackass is in a chat room where the official rule is posted, and 15 people are telling him he is wrong, and yet he does nothing but call everyone else stupid and tell everyone else they don't know what they were talking about.

MikeC was wrong, and his ego the size of China cause him to look like a pathetic desperate asshole.

People make mistakes, I like that...but I truly have no lower opinion than that of someone who is older than 12 that can't admit they are wrong when faced with 100% certain fact.

I'm sure the Phils were saying, "OH CRAP NP!" when they saw Rollins go...knowing he was a dead duck and inning over....He made a BIG mistake going--fundamentally it was a horrible decision by Rollins...he didn't just "bait" Barrett, he was more than half way home--sitting duck for a rundown....

Rollins horrible baserunning fundamentals actually had a positive outcome. If Manuel had "taught" him not to go in that situation--the Phils might not have won the game right there.....but Rollins bad fundamentals were not as bad as Barretts failure to run him back further.

"For once, for crying out loud, blame a player."

now that is my take totally...

Cubby78, I am not being a Dusty apologist. I am saying there is clearly something horrid going on with the coaching of this team. Not having people up in the bullpen in appropriate times, horrible lineup construction, blind faith in "his guys", reluctance to play young kids, etc all our contributing factors to the Cubs record. That being said, just because Perez bats 2nd one day, doesn't mean Dusty causes him to strike out. Striking out still lies in the lap of Neifi. Just like failing to enact fundamental baseball falls on Barrett tonight.

All I was saying is you can't blame Dusty for individual plays, you CAN point a finger at him in regards to overall fundemental play and attitude.

WWOD? What would Ozzie do? I think Blanco would be playing for awhile. It is so fundamental to run the guy back toward the base - a little leaguer knows it. The pitchers also blew fundamentals.

Whatwill Dusty do? I'm not part of the hate Dusty crowd but I think we need a manager who will be a little more outspoken and critical when it is warranted.

from phillies.com

PHILADELPHIA -- Try figuring this one out: Pat Burrell whiffed with the bases loaded and one out in the bottom of the ninth inning, yet the Phillies won, 4-3, at Citizens Bank Park.
Confused?

The pitch from Michael Wuertz got away from catcher Michael Barrett for a passed ball. Barrett recovered and had Jimmy Rollins hung up between third and home, but threw to third baseman Aramis Ramirez rather than running Rollins back to third.

Rollins restarted and slid home ahead of Ramirez's relay back to Barrett, giving the Phillies one of their strangest wins this season.

Even the phillies beat writer thinks we're a joke

Dusty pinched hit with Hollandsworth against a left handed pitcher and Murton against a right handed pitcher...that was pretty lame if you ask me.

i'm ready to see dusty's after-game comments, myself...

Barrett fucked up and proved once again that he's not a quality catcher. I hope Hendry will admit to himself that he was wrong about Barrett and seek a new catcher, or trade him and use Hank full time.

"Dude, this one was tough, real tough...Man, that was big...tough--We fought back and tied it up...that's all you can do..tough...man tough"

Cubfan, Holly hit a 2 run single to tie the game.
Holly was brought in to face a righty forcing the Phils to make a move to bring in a lefty, once the move was made, Dusty was not going to waste our last good hitter on the bench, knowing that Hairy was hurting.

Murton then had to come in to bat for an injured hairston, it had nothing to do with matchups at that point.

Again, people are so quick to blame Dusty without first checking the facts.

Hank White is awful!!! I won't knee jerk Barrett out of starts when we don't have a better options. get pudge, send barrett over there with Mitre, rem, and eric patterson.

BJS, Barrett is a perfectly suitable catcher that carries a bat better than at least 80% of the other catchers in the league. He f'ed up tonight, but one play or night does not make a player.

I don't know everytime I see Hank White play he seems to hit a home run....granted I don't see him play much.

and cash if they want it.

Tonight's loss certainly has to be blamed on Barrett.

BUT I think a whole lot needs to be said about the fundamental mistakes we've seen on the Cubs teams over the past 2-3 years.

Dusty's big selling point is supposed to be his ability to get the best out of his players. If his players can't even get the basics right, he's not accomplishing that goal.

re: #164

hahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahaha...

How good would've Pudge's classic singles to right looked tonight with men on second and third?

Barrett does have a great bat, but there is a fundamental problem in my mind when 2 out of 5 pitchers would prefer to give up a 100 points in batting average, for a terrible offensive catcher who they think calls a better game. That to me shows a significant problem with Barrett...what good is his bat if 2 of our pitchers don't want to pitch to him.

Blue...

Perez is certainly a player let go by the Giants (he probably was considered to young for the organization)...anyway..they let him go..

NO ONE else in the majors wanted him...not KC, not TB NO ONE>...and he ends up playing for Johnny B and does much better than he ever did for SF and others recently....giving Dusty Baker once again that "Gets the most out of his players"...he turns crap into crap that doesn't smell too bad.

100 posts in an hour - TCR comments working overtime tonight.

Player A .272/.335/.469 2005 Salary: $3,133,333
Player B .296/.306/.463 2005 Salary: $8,000,000

A- Barrett
B- Pudge

I don't have the stats in front of me, but I would be willing to bet the staff ERA with Barrett behind the plate and the staff ERA with Blanco behind the plate isn't too different. Also, the club record with Barrett starting is probably better than that of Blanco starting.

Regardless though, to say we should get rid of Barrett is misguided.

#167 - Bill
I'm not looking to argue, but Barrett is one of the worst catchers in the game and his offense does NOT make up for it. The pitchers perform better with Hank and he has much better fundamental sense than Barrett.

Cubfan, please be sure to see post #165, for know other reason than just being sure you know what happened in the game.

Night all, you all piss me off....but that's what being a sports fan is about.

#176 - BILL

You are very wrong, I wish I had the stats on hand.

Barrett made a bad play--poor decision....

Who doesn't? We shouldn't have been in that position anyway....we should have played "smart ball" on offense and had 6 runs tonight. We didn't...we lost.

Barrett's play was the final nail of bad plays...but everyone has made plays equally as stupid in their career.

Cheer up everyone. St. Louis nailed 7 runs in the last two innings on Florida, so they should drop a game too.

Of course, Washington picked up a game. As did Philly.

cubfan...
probably we can paraphrase this..
"but everyone has made plays equally as stupid in their career."
to
"but every cub player has made plays equally as stupid in tonight's game"

NO ONE else in the majors wanted him...not KC, not TB NO ONE>...and he ends up playing for Johnny B and does much better than he ever did for SF and others recently

Except even that's a Myth. Neifi isn't playing better under Dusty:

Neifi 2005: .263/.286/.377
Neifi 2004: .255/.296/.336 (both SF and CHC)
Neifi 2003: .256/.285/.348

BJS,

Well, I am wrong, I don't know about very wrong. Trying to figure out staff ERA would be nearly impossible without some major research, but when Barret has 0, 1 or 2 AB's in a game the Cubs are:

20 - 13

So, when Barrett has 3 or more AB's the Cubs are:

34-40

So, yeah, they aren't as good, record wise, when Barrett is behind that plate. That being said, he also catches Williams, Mitre, Rusch, etc. While Blanco almost exclusively faces our "Healthy" Ace and a HOF.

I still say stating Barrett needs to go is wrong.

It's times like this I wish I was named Elrondo or something.

No surprise. Bleeding Blue wins the points. I'll try not to let that happen in the fantasy leagues.

Does this get a worst taunt ever award?

Blue,

Regarding post 184--EXACTLY! You listen to the announcers and they can't say enough good things about Neifi and his wonderful play--better than expected...yet it's right about his norm...

Just another tool in Dustys PR machine....remember if the announcers turn on you the season gets long and ugly and people lose their jobs (and it isn't Johnny).

On a side note we now are only 1.5 games ahead of Milwaukee---club should feel real proud.

Cubby78, I don't know how to say it more clearly: I don't like Dusty Baker, he is a big reason for our poor record thus far. Our roster should have a substantially better W/L than they currently do.

But, we can't just blame Dusty for everything. Barrett is the one that messed up today. In fact, this was a rare day by Dusty I thought. A fairly well managed in-game game. Usually he does put his players into positions to fail, but today he didn't do that, the players just failed to produce.

Did anyone else think D. Lee's shoulder may be giving him more pain than he's letting on? He swung and fouled a pitch off tonight and he looked like it really hurt his shoulder.

Whatever his numbers are surely cooling down.

Yeah, the Neifi myth is puke inducing. I almost get more pissed when he gets a hit now because it means more PT.

Did anybody watch the broadcast a couple weeks ago during the rain delay where they showed a replay of Dusty's pre-game press conference? He actually stated that Nomar isn't guaranteed to be the everyday SS upon his return. That without Neifi we wouldn't be where we were you can't just take him off the field.

That comment cost me my left eye since I happened to have a fork in my hand and needed an immediate distraction.

you know what is Ironic. The phillies have stolen 2 games from us on absolutely boneheaded mental mistakes in the 9th inning.

In May in Chicago, Cubs up 3-2 in the 9th, bases loaded, 1 out, Hawkins on the mound. Line Drive to Hawkins, All Hawkins needs to do is hold the ball, and then go after the next batter...instead he tries to be the hero, makes a stupid throw to try to catch the guy off first. Hits him in the head, 2 runs score...Cubs lose.

Today, 3-3 in the 9th, bases loaded, 1 out. Strike out to Barrett, all barrett needs to do is hold the ball and let Wuertz go after the next guy. He tries to be the hero, makes a stupid 3 to third, the winning run scores.

That's just unbelievable that two situations like that can happen at the major league level, and a scary coincidence that they happened in virtually the same situation against the same team.

"Dusty doesn't control whether or not barrett is in AAA which he won't be btw. However, dusty's teams have lacked the fundamentals but I don't remember any cubs team really having any fundamentals besides Sandberg, Dawson, Grace, and Maddux."

Gabe, I know Hendry is not going to send Barrett down to AAA. What I was trying to say is there should be punished for dumbass fundamential mistakes. They should be fined or something. Yes I know the PA will go biserk and challange it. If Baker did this world poverty could come to an end because of how much money would be donated to chairity. Funny how 3 of the 4 guys you mentioned are or will be in the HOF in 10 years.

Michael Barrett CERA 4.59 thrown out .277
Henry Blanco CERA 3.34 ERA thrown out .588

Of course Blanco catches Prior primarily, so it's not as simple as just looking at their CERA.

You can try and breakdwon how each catcher handles a certain pitcher, but I don't have those numbers.

A few weeks back I tried to calculate the team win/loss depending on which catcher started a game. I think Blanco was a couple of games over .500 which means Barrett was near or just below .500. Once again, catching Prior (and Maddux) would skew the numbers a bit.

Loss to be blamed on Barrett(the catcher), Barrett(the hitter), fundamentally inept pitchers and unprepared offense. Tejeda didn't walk one guy and we swung at WAY too many early pitches. Horrible approach at the plate and either the scouting or the coaching let us down.

Nice recollection Adam.
Bill..I agree with you man that tonight its barrett's fault that really cost us the game (whats up with the pitchers not cover 1st base etc etc). You can probably refer to other threads for countless similar fundamental mistakes we have made that cost us games all season long in similar fashion. Where do you think is the solution to this problem?? Yesterday it was some one else ..tonight its barrett tommorow its going to be john doe. Who will take ultimate responsibility for all this crap?? Some one has to right?? Consistent cheap fallability should be accounted for as soon as possible and unfortunately its Dusty Baker who should take the brunt in my opinion. I totally agree that the players are messing it all up ...but what is the solution right now for us to play at least decently through the rest of the season???

ohhh wait lets blame it all on billy goat this year - right fellas?

"Player A .272/.335/.469 2005 Salary: $3,133,333
Player B .296/.306/.463 2005 Salary: $8,000,000
A- Barrett
B- Pudge"

Blue, Your forgetting 2 things in that comparison D and clutch hitting both things this team is lacking. NO WAY IN HELL that Pudge does what Barrett did or K W/ bases loaded and no out.

ohhh wait lets blame it all on billy goat this year - right fellas?

I don't think tonight was Dusty's fault - there's not much he can do about Barrett's boneheaded play. But it can't be argued that the fundamentals the last few seasons under Dusty have been flat out awful. From the baserunning (Alou, Burnitz, Hairston), to stupid throws like Hawkins earlier this year, to stupid plays like tonight, to other stupid plays I'm sure I didn't see/suppressed, to never getting the runner over from 2b to 3b when there's no outs, to rarely getting a runner home from 3b w/less than two outs, the cubs just never do the little things to win games. That is why they were a mediocre team last year and that's why they're a medicore team this year.

Jody Gerut (knee) left the game against the San Diego Padres Wednesday, Aug. 3 in the seventh inning, with right knee irritation.

-

why the hell are they trying to play a guy with a bonds-eque brace on his knee that much anyway? geez..pitt...

Re 196 - I wasn't commenting on "cluchness" or actually commenting on anything.

I was answering the triva question.

oh man..I just read this interview with Dusty Baker @

http://blogdrive.com/archive/2365.htm
and its hilarious !!!!

NO WAY IN HELL that Pudge does what Barrett did or K W/ bases loaded and no out.

Actually, while I wasn't commenting on it before.

Pudge is 1 for 10 with 4 Ks with bases loaded this year.

No way does he make that boneheaded play to end the game, but even the best, "most clutch" players in the game still fail in key situations more often than not.

"You're taught to run at him every time," Barrett said. "I panicked and threw the ball. I looked up and saw Rollins breaking and I threw the ball."

No one getting paid $3MM dollars a year should be panicked about anything, unless it involves a mask and a gun.

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