Davey Train

I have been, in my own small way, banging the drum for Davey Johnson to manage the Cubs since April of 2002. For the last few years, I've used all of my less-than-considerable resources to try to track Johnson down and figure out what he was doing, and why whatever he was doing was more important than becoming the Cubs' manager. Thwarted, I briefly turned my attention to Buck Showalter, but in my heart of hearts I always knew that Johnson was the right guy for the job. He finally surfaced in 2003 as the coach of the Dutch national basebal team. OK, I figured, he'll spend a year there, get fully re-infected by the managing bug, and be back in the majors in 2005. That didn't happen, though, and again I put his name out of my mind. Until now, when the manager-replacement talk is heating up on TCR again. When I asked Will Carroll about Davey the other day, he mentioned that Ray Knight told him on Baseball Prospectus radio that Johnson had heart problems. As this article points out, he did have health problems, but they weren't heart-related and they've been taken care of. Thom Loverro leaves all of us Davey-lovers with a tantalizing close to his article:
I asked Johnson if he would consider managing again, without referring to any job in particular. "I wouldn't rule it out," he said. "I really have enjoyed my time off. There are other things in life." But ... "I am getting a little bored," he said. "It would have to be someone I know and respect."
I don't know if Johnson knows Andy MacPhail and Jim Hendry, but I have to imagine he at least knows who they are. Does he respect them? I have no idea, but surely a few meetings with them would give him the oppotunity to get to know them a little better. I can't imagine that his work with Vantage Sports Management is really as challenging and rewarding a position as a guy like Johnson wants.
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Comments

Isn't Davey Johnson just the NL version of Terry Bevington?

I have no idea what that means, but have you seen Johnson's record as a manager?

Terry Bevington managed the Sox before Jerry Manuel, if memory serves.

If he manages next year I think it will be for the A's or Orioles. Wasn't Beane a back-up for him on the Mets and that article goes on to say how much he likes Angelos. I think Beane would axe Macha for the right manager, because it seems they don't get along and he did the same thing to Howe.

As a Cardinals fan, the last guy I want the Cubs to hire is Buck Showalter. If that happened, the Cubs would be guaranteed a World Series win the year after he's fired. ;)

On a serious note, I think Davey Johnson would be good for the Cubs. He wouldn't let a lot of the stuff happen that's been going on this season and last season.

I'd just like to see him get a shot with anybody again though. I think he got a raw deal in LA.

As I recall, Johnson got some props in Bill James' book on managers a few years ago. But it's been so long since he's actually managed a team, I can't remember any strengths/weaknesses about the man.

His record's a solid one. The three main questions I'd have would be:

1. How does he handle a pitching staff (especially a staff with durability issues)?
2. Any track record on handling young players?
3. Who are his "pet" coaches?

James has had complimentary words about Johnson, mainly due to the fact that he understands the value of a lineup stacked with guys who know how to get on base (see teh platoon of Backman and Teufel at 2B while he manged the Mets as an example), plus I think he understands the importance of having a everyday player, who is also the team leader.

I will check some of my older James' material and see if he had any words on his handling of pitching staffs.

Also, if I remmeber correctly, he did write that Johnson has some of the most awful mannerisms, in that when the camera is onhim in the dugout, he always doing something with his hands that you wouldn't do in polite compnay.

I'm still wondering what Chuck means by calling Johnson the NL version of Terry Bevington -- I don't see any similarities between the two...

I look forward to seeing what James has to say about Johnson - my take onhim is that he has a solid knowledge of how to hadle a pitching staff, and he's good with development of younger players.

And he's only been out of the game for 5 years, so it's not like it's passed him by.

Ha ha. From the baseballreference.com page on Davey Johnson:

Cyberhog sponsor(s) this page.

Jim Hendry: Come to your senses and hire this guy NOW!!!

I garnered from Ruz's April 2002 post that Johnson's not a small-ball guy, which is great from my perspective. Can anyone provide details on how he handled his relievers?

JK1969: thanks for the info re. Bill James.

>when the camera is on him in the dugout, he's always doing something with his hands that you wouldn't do in polite company.

As long as that also includes wrapping his fingers around the neck of a player who didn't run hard to first, I'm OK with it.

Off topic, but those who live in Chicago (or Milwaukee) might find this amussing.

http://www.milwaukee-horror-hosts.com/dublon....

It is funny enough to think that Milwaukee was getting its weather from a puppet, but even funnier to see which Chicago weatherman of note worked with the puppet (scroll down to see who).

Can anyone explain to me why John Koronka has been re-called? Do we seriously not have anyone better in our system? I find that to be more laughable than the way the Cubs have been playing. What a joke!

Maybe Koronka is being groomed as the new Cubs manager?

What's the sorces on Kornoka being recalled?

I didn't even think he was on the 40 man anymore.

It's from the I-Cubs site here.

I assume that means Hill is sent down, but for crying out loud...John Koronka? The guy is awful. He's not even good in AAA. I'm so sick and tired of this shit from the Cubs. Bring up Nolasco. Pignatiello. Brownlie. I don't care. Anyone, but Koronka.

``I saw a sign out (in the stands) that said, 'Please stop losing, Cubs,''' Chicago second baseman Todd Walker said. ``That kind of stuff breaks your heart. Believe me, we're trying. I'm bewildered.

Koronka's last 4 starts: 24 IP, 30 H, 17 earned runs.

Absolutely mindboggling.

I guess all you have to do in the Cubs organization is play bad and Jim hendry will give you a call. Either that or get hurt and he'll surely sign you.

WSCR reporting Macias leading off and Neifi 2nd.

I swear Dusty throws out these lineups on rainout days just to threaten Hendry.

And another source.

Not to be a Cub apologist, but I bet that Koronka is being recalled because his next start coincides with when Hill would have made a start.

If I were the manager :), I would have inserted Rusch back into the rotation and recalled a reliever from AAA.

No, not at all. His start was supposed to be yesterday and he got scratched 2 hours before the start. Pignatiello got the start in stead.

What I meant by the Bevington line is that DJ seems to always have a blank, open mouthed-stare on his face. Like someone has stuck a probe into his head and scambled his grey matter.

As to DJ's record, look at Dusty's record. Both pretty good.

DJ seems, to me, to be more a result of the talent around him (Strawberry, Gooden, Darling, Viola, Mitchell, Carter), than his skill as a manager.

His best days were 20 years ago. Forget him.

My guess it's a contingency plan for 6 games in 5 days, with the resulting DH from today's rainout.

Hello, managers don't recall players. That's Hendry's job.

Ok, I realised this is a lost season at this point, but do the Cubs have to poor salt in the wounds of Cub fans? Really?

Koronka, Macias, Neifi? I think I'm going to be sick.

It's so funny how everyone wants to blame Dusty for EVERYTHING. You can blame Hendry just as much. They were meant to be together. Too bad it had to be with the Cubs.

It's disgusting, isn't it? Sometimes I just wish I could tell this team to Fuck off and walk away.

After all, that's what they're doing to us.

Actually, it's not funny. It's kind of sickening. (Insert: "yeah, but so is the way the Cubs are playing" response here.)

Who was blaming Dusty for recalling Koronka?

come on guys...koronka..neifi and macias can't make this team any worse.. Its like shooting bullets into a corpse..

Is the game going to be rained out? Is it raining pretty hard up there?

I think koronka..neifi and macias will add more fun to the circus cozz its kinda boring to see the same clowns everyday.. I think the cubs organization is kind of experimenting to see the perennial depths of worst performances.
Edison --> "I have not failed. I've just found 10000 ways that won't work.."

Dusty and Hendry --> "We haven't lost. We found 10,000 worst possible line ups and 10,000 possible ways of losing a ballgame."

-C

DJ seems, to me, to be more a result of the talent around him (Strawberry, Gooden, Darling, Viola, Mitchell, Carter), than his skill as a manager.

That can be said about 99% of baseball's managers, not just Davey Johnson.

The only manager who I don't think that applies to, at least right now, is Bobby Cox.

I doubt the game will be rained out. It rained a little this morning, and it's supposed to rain off and on later this afternoon, but they should be able to get the game in.

It's not about making them worse. It's about making an attempt to get better and seeing what you have for next year. If Koronka sucks in AAA and has already sucked with the Cubs, what possible reason could there be for re-calling him? It's just bad management. On Hendry's part, that is.

Why bring up a good pitcher and let Dusty fuck him over?

So apparently, Dusty doesn't think he's done enough damage to Woody's career.

The nutshell: While the Cubs brass and team doctors don't want Wood to throw more than a couple innings at a time, Dusty's still thinking of putting him back in the rotation!

From espn.com:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2...

Cubs officials told the Chicago Sun-Times on Thursday that although manager Dusty Baker left open the possibility of Wood returning to the starting rotation as early as Monday, the team plans to keep Wood in the bullpen, following doctors' advice to limit Wood to one or two innings a game for the rest of the season.

Wednesday, after Wood threw pitches clocked at 98 mph and 100 mph, Baker had said he wouldn't eliminate the possibility of Wood replacing struggling rookie Rich Hill in the rotation Monday at Houston.

"He's throwing the ball great out of that bullpen," Baker told the Sun-Times. "We just can't get to him when it means something. I have to talk to Jim [general manager Hendry]. As long as [Wood] can minimize his pitches, he feels great. We've got to figure this thing out. We're not out of this thing yet."

Actually, the more I read that article, the more I'm convinced Hendry brought up Koronka to keep Dusty from using Wood in the rotation. Dusty now has another proven veteran he can turn to, even if that proven veteran has proven himself to be a mediocre minor leaguer at best.

"We're not out of this thing yet."

Is Dusty insane? He sees the Cubs only losing 10 to 14 more games this season? Because that's what it will take to win the WC at this point.

I think you have to win 93 games to win the WC. At 54-60, the Cubs would have to go 39-9 to get to 93 and have a chance to win the WC.

I think the recall of Koronka is an impulse action, not one made with any L/T plan in mind. At this point, Hendry is most likely in a quasi panic made, since I think his mode is to be positive and unless he is in full denial, he may be at a loss, and instead of thinking thru the ramiifications for the rest of the season, he made the easy call, in that Koronka has been with the big club and this move doesn't disturb the bullpen configuration, it is the path of least resistance.

Big Jim Hendry is probably in career crisis, as given his MOA, no way he saw this collapse coming.

post #22
If I were the manager :), I would have inserted Rusch back into the rotation and recalled a reliever from AAA.

I don't know, with season being over and the Cubs likely to get hammered over the next two series, I would much rather send Koronka out to get his confidence shattered than let further damage be done to Hill's.

Koronka had his 15 minutes of fame with his major league debut, and it has to be clear to him now that he's a perpetual minor leaguer. However, Hill, if he can develop a reliable third pitch to go along with his mediocre fastball, can be a promising starter in the future. Perhaps Hendry and the brass have realized that and are sending him down to 1) safeguard his remaining self-confidence and 2) have him work on a new pitch or two.

Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, but with the way this season's been, I'm looking for anything to be optimistic about.

Yeah...like maybe jermaine van buren who has dominated AAA vs. Koronka who has pretty much just gotten pounded.

I don't care about a path of least resistance. This, like the Matt Lawton trade, is just stupid. Call up someone who may actually have a future. this just tells me that the minor league system is even worse than I already thought it was.

The way the Cubs are playing, they have a much better chance going 9-39. Can you imagine the scene at Wrigley with all games pretty much sold out the rest of the season? There would be a riot!

At least in years past people knew the Cubs would be out of it in September, crowds of 5,000 or less showing up.

MLB better relax the steroid testing if the Cubs are going to have a chance.

I'm sorry, but Hill's minor league numbers do not indicate a pitcher who will have a good career as a starter. They are very mediocre...at best. Even at college he was average. He strikes out a lot of people and unless he's moved to the bullpen, his career will be short. he's not going to be an effective starter. I see no evidence to suggest he can be.

Games may be sold out, but some people simply won't go. I wouldn't go watch this team play. I hope others won't as well. The only way they'll get the point is if the stands are empty. Think that $4 million they could use to buy out Dusty won't be lost in a hurry through ticket sales and the Tribune is stupid.

Bob,

It IS Dusty's job to decide whether Rusch should be moved into the starting rotation. For reasons I don't understand, he refuses to do that.

Cubs.com just sent an email asking me to enter for a chance to win a trip to the 2005 World Series. I'm forwarding it Dusty Baker -- after all, that's the only way he's getting there. :(

Andrew:
"I would much rather send Koronka out to get his confidence shattered than let further damage be done to Hill's. "

AMEN!!

That is why I posted way back in June that bringing Hill up is not a good idea as it was way too qucik. Him getting shelled woill only set him back. Hopefully he is able to overcome all this.

Davey Johnson? No.

Rock:
"Games may be sold out, but some people simply won't go. I wouldn't go watch this team play."

I am not either, I am just wselling my seasons on Ebay. I sold Sat and Sun games to some STL fans for $160 for the pair each day. At least I am getting something out of this non playoff season.

Vorare:
"It IS Dusty's job to decide whether Rusch should be moved into the starting rotation. For reasons I don't understand, he refuses to do that."

Rusch hasn't started a game since June 23rd, his arm is not stretched out properly to go more than 3 innings or so. That is why i didn't understand why Hendry and Baker had Mitre with the big squad so long instead they should of had him in Iowa getting stretched out so he can start.

At least the buyers for that one get to see the Cards: I wouldn't want to be stuck with something like the final series against the Pirates at the prices those were going for back in March.

You can fire Dusty...replace him with Davey...or anyone else you wish...the results will be the same until the club makes an organization wide commitment to winning--not just for this season or next season, but over the long haul...this season, next season, the next, the next, the next....

And that starts with an attitude that the farm system is the golden goose....and that every coach at every level has a responsibility to groom fundamentally sound ball players and advance them when they are fundamentally ready for the next level.

Dusty, Hendry, Baylor, Lynch style of organizational flow...player retention, development and recruitment is a total mess.....they need to go to school again...look at Atlanta Braves as a mold for how you run an organization...take some notes from St. Louis, Oakland....and only then will they be truly successful.

The commitment has always been for instant gratification from the Cubs organization....and that simply is not how you effective run a baseball organization.

I have been around for many of the famous Cub collaspses of the past, and this one doesn't bother me much, for 2 reasons:

1) I did not come into this season believing the Cubs would seriously challenge for a playoff spot, unless they played well early and Hendry made a mid season improvement.

2) The core of this team is still intact. Z and Prior are both healthy, and although Mark has regressed in his development, we can build around these 2 guys, even if Wood nevers amounts to more than he is now. Aram and Lee are mashers, and notwithstanding Lee's slump of late, his game really has no weakness. We do have some possible options in the minors, if certain players can continue to improve as they progress.

With that said, I think that 2006 may be another year of adjustment, as I don't see how can can overcome the many holes we will have - LF, RF, Back end of rotation, the pen, the bench and the managerial situation.

Yes, it hurts to see the Cubs disappoint again, however, it looks like the plan will take longer to fulfill than I thought.

Yes, but the poster said if he were the manager he would insert Rusch and call up someone. That was my point.

Cubfan, you are wrong. The Cardinals for the most part are made up of free agents. The Red Sox was all free agents. Farm systems are totally overrated. The Braves? During their incredible streak of 10 division titles (which is useless cause you don't need to win your division to go to the playoffs) they have won 1 whole whopping world series. In that time frame the Florida Marlins have finished LAST 3 times and been under .500 7 times yet have managed 2 World Series titles.

F the Braves. The most OVERRATED organization in sports.

>the Braves. The most OVERRATED organization in sports.

If that's true, I'll take OVERRATED. Gimme OVERRATED. I love OVERRATED.

Schuerholz and Cox can run my team anytime. And they can bring along Mazzone, too.

The only good thing about Koronka getting recalled (if he is), is that ESPN Radio 1000, afternoon show (Mac, Jurko, & Harry) will play that John Koronka parody song. I can never get that out of my head after they play it.

"John Koronka, John John Koronka...."

The Cardinals for the most part are made up of free agents.

Let's see--

Pujols--Cardinal product
Edmonds--trade
Rolen--trade
Molina--Cardinal product
Walker--trade
Morris--Cardinal product
Mulder--trade
Marquis--trade

Suppan, Isringhausen, Carpenter, Sanders, and Grudzielanek were free agent signings, but other than Izzy they were all pretty low profile. Not sure what you mean by "for the most part," but it seems to me the core of the team consists of non-FAs.

Eckstein was an FA too. Doesn't change my general point.

Isn't this the right time to bring up Scott McClain (.291, 24 2B, 2 3B!, 26 HR, 81 RBI in only 364 AB!)from Iowa and see what he can do?

At the least, he could give our first baseman an occasional rest and give us some power (= HOPE) off the bench.

If you remember he had a great spring training for the Cubs last year. It's not like this year with the ICubs is a fluke.

If the Braves are so OVERRATED, how is it that they keep getting forecast to finally not win the division, yet keep winning it?

It's official:
Koronka recalled, Hill Optioned to Iowa

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/p...

Koronka can't do much worse than Hill, but this makes NO SENSE. Koronka was on teh 40 man, but still....

You got to be freaking kidding me.....Macias and Perez #1 and #2? He has lost his fucking mind.

Our hated rivals in town, and he trots this out? Ohh fire his ass now, just fire this guy. This is beyond stupid now.

The Edmonds and Mulder trades involved prospects, and while I have no idea how Adam Kennedy was regarded way back when, Dan Haren and Daric Barton were major jewels in the Cards' system. You don't get big names for free, no matter how you choose to go about doing it.

Also, Chad, your comment about the Braves is beyond nonsense. It's hard to overrate prolonged dominance. If the Cubs ever strung together a third of what the Braves have accomplished, we'd all be ecstatic. The Braves, since 1991, are 1,341-859. They've won more games since 1991 than the Cubs have since 1988, and, needless to say, one more World Series than the Cubs have.

Macias
Perez
Lee
Ramirez
Garciaparra
Barrett
Murton
Patterson
Maddux

If anything, the Braves are grossly underrated. They've put together the longest run of continuous dominance in baseball history, in the era of expansion and free agency, and still have numbskulls who think they're "OVERRATED."

dear god.....dear god....

1 David Eckstein, SS Jose Macias, RF
2 Abraham O. Nunez, 3B Neifi Perez, 2B
3 Albert Pujols, 1B Derrek Lee, 1B
4 Jim Edmonds, CF Aramis Ramirez, 3B
5 Mark Grudzielanek, 2B Nomar Garciaparra, SS
6 John Mabry, RF Michael Barrett, C
7 So Taguchi, LF Matt Murton, LF
8 Einar Diaz, C Corey Patterson, CF
9 Mark Mulder, P Greg Maddux, P

macias leading off........i know, i know, the season's over anyway, and no one else is producing anyway....but still.

i don't want a baseball imbecile making my lineups anymore.....murton and barrett belong in the top two today....at least one of them instead of macias....yikes.

why couldn't lawton play right and leadoff?

no one knows. lawton didn't even play yesterday.

the scary part is, while you and i know that this is over, as we saw above, DUSTY THINKS THEY'RE STILL IN IT

and yet....HE PUTS OUT THIS LINEUP. frightening stupidity.

Lawton apparently didn't start yesterday because he was 2-11 against Milton. God knows why he's not playing today.

The Cubs lineup today has five players with an OBP of .305 or lower (four below .300 entirely).

And the funny part is Walker and Burnitz just had a day off a few days ago. We are trying to stop a losing streak, not continue it. You play your best players not your worst.

The only reason Baker has this lineup is that he is using reverse psychology. If I put the suck in early and often we are bound to win this game.

I have this little idea, let's try using the same lineup for a week, or hell let's get crazy a month straight without constantly flipping everyone around like its musical chair hour at the retirement home.

Excuse me I misspoke. When I said free agent, I meant non-farm system player. The Cardinals are mostly made up of players that did not come from their farm system either free agency or trade.

Retro - baseball dominance? HARDLY!!!! Baseball is measured in World Series titles and NOTHING ELSE! Regular season records don't mean SHIT! You guys are too dim to realize that. Who the f cares if you win your division. I would rather be the Marlins than the Braves but you guys can go on and be happy with your big time important regular season accomplishments. PUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

because lawton is pretty bland versus lefties for his career and has been pretty bland as a Cub.

Ohh thank god it is raining. The last time Macias and Perez were at the top of the order it rained also. To most people that would be a HUGE sign that God is trying to tell you something.

God's assistant: Ummm sir, they did it again.

God: You got to be kidding me? Macias and Perez again?

God's assistant: I am a afraid so sir.

God: Oh fine que the rain storm, and send in Death.

WSCR says Rusch moves to the rotation and Koronka to the bullpen.

Against Lefties....
Holly - .278 BA - .350 OBP
Walker - .377 BA - .415 OBP

Macias - .292 BA - .320 OBP
Perez - .275 BA - .298 OBP

Hey when better options exist, Baker chooses the worst option. Playing Perez at 2nd over Walker is probably a criminal offense in most countries. .377 against lefties and he ISNT in the lineup?

Lawton is 5-36 off Mulder, but that's not all that much worse than he is gainst lefties, PERIOD.

Why the Cubs traded for Lawton still escapes me. If Hendry thought that Lawton gave the Cubs a legitimate chance he should be fired on the spot. At least with Gerut we had a serviceable 4th OF under contract for 3 more years and we would then not have to worry about Holly getting any more starts next year.

Dusty is to blame for an awful lot, but so is Hendry. Both of them are incompetent morons.

I don't really care if Perez and Macias start over Walker and Holly. I mean, does it really matter? If we win, so what!

What upsets me is that we still have Perez and Macias as well as Walker and Holly. None of them should be a part of this team at this point. Call up some young players and let's see what we have for next year.

The only good thing about Koronka getting recalled (if he is), is that ESPN Radio 1000, afternoon show (Mac, Jurko, & Harry) will play that John Koronka parody song. I can never get that out of my head after they play it.

"John Koronka, John John Koronka...."

Funny stuff, Manny.

I couldn't figure out why I was humming "Help Me Rhonda" earlier. Now I realize that it was after I read on TCR that John Koronka was recalled.

"Not Willy Wonka, he's John Koronka."

"Either free agency or trade." Trades where they gave up what? Magic beans? Strawberry Pop-Tarts? Old ELO albums? Or PROSPECTS? The use of "prospects" doesn't have to be limited to "cheap filler that lets you spend elsewhere". From their 2004 roster, the acquisitions of Rolen, Renteria, and Edmonds all involved trades for prospects.

You don't care about the Braves, so we'll use the Cards' WS opponents. The Red Sox acquired some players through trading prospects (Schilling, Pedro) and trading veterans for prospects (Varitek, Lowe). The machinations and uses of prospects and, by extension, farm systems are ignored/underutilized at teams' own peril, which is why pretty much nobody shares your cavalier attitude.

Good golly. When I heard that Macias and Perez were playing it actually made sense. It's raining, it's wet, Nomar and Ramirez have gimpy legs and haven't had a day off in while. Then I saw they were playing place of Walker and Burnitz. I laughed so hard my side hurts.

Pedro was traded for Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr.
Edmonds was traded for Adam Kennedy and Kent Bottenfield
Rolen - Placido Polanco, Mike Timlin, and Bud Smith
ManRam - Free Agent
Johnny Damon - Free Agent
Mark Bellhorn - Sent to the Boston Red Sox by the Colorado Rockies as part of a conditional deal.
Bill Mueller - Free Agent
Millar - Purchased by the Boston Red Sox from the Florida Marlins

WHATEVER! Your point is BS.

Regular season records don't mean SHIT! You guys are too dim to realize that. Who the f cares if you win your division.

So according to this reasoning the Chicago Cubs have been as successful as the Atlanta Braves.

If you haven't noticed 75% of all playoff teams are division winners....winning the division is huge.

Chad, you don't like the Braves, but let's look at them anyway. Of the 16 players they have with a 10.0 VORP or above this year:

Nine are homegrown
One is off the free-talent market
Three were traded for in exchange for prospects
One was traded for in exchange for a veteran
One was traded for an in-betweener
*ONE* was a free-agent signing

But that's okay. Nothing to learn here, people, move along. Let's get Damon!!!

Winning the division is huge? Please tell that to the Red Sox, the 03 and 97 Marlins, the 02 Angels AND Giants, the 01 Diamondbacks. As well as the 00 Mets.

WRONG! Division titles MEAN NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!

Chad logic: A handful of wildcard teams have made the world series; therefore, division titles mean nothing. (Never mind that his original premise was that "only world series titles matter," so the '02 Giants and '00 Mets aren't relevant even to his strained point.)

Ron, once you throw out a term like VORP you know you are going to lose me. There is no cybersabertooth stat that is going to sway me. Once again, come October when the Braves bow out of the playoffs AGAIN, think about all the VORP and BURP and FART you want, those stats don't win playoff games.

chad

at least winning the division means...YOU WON THE DAMN DIVISION!!!! Anyone who is truly a cubs fan would realize that if we could win the division on a regular basis, that'd be great!!!!! I'd love to see at least SOME Oct baseball rather than none.

Maybe you mean that winning the division doesn't necesarrily translate into post season success. I'd agree with you there but to say it means nothing is stupid because 3 of the playoff teams in each league then have done NOTHING IN YOUR MIND. that doesn't even maake sense

Of the 16 players they have with a 10.0 VORP or above this year:

VORP? You're talking WAY over Chad's head here.

Ron, once you throw out a term like VORP you know you are going to lose me.

Damn--he beat me to it!

Suit yourself. Is "Of the 16 best players on their team" too complex for you?

Once again Retro you confuse two points. I threw out the 02 Giants and 00 Mets to show that you don't need to win your division to go to the World Series. But that's OK.

And a handful of wild card teams? The wild card is only 10 years old and we have 5 wild card champs. You are so dumb.

WAIT, even better only TWO non wild card teams have won a WS title the Braves and their gigantic victory and the Yankees 4 times. And for anyone to point to the Braves as the most dominant team over the past ten years is a joke. The Yankees are the ones. Granted they built their dynasty on farm and non farm players, but that is REAL dominance.

My personal (realistic) hopes for next year...

Damon CF
Murton RF
Lee 1B
Dunn LF
Ramirez 3b
Walker 2B
Barrett C
Cedeno SS

Rotation: Prior, Z, Maddux, Z (as in Zito), Rusch

Closer: Kerry Wood (he's shown he's got the stuff

8th: Williamson

Bullpen: Rich Hill (long relief/middle inn.), Will Ohman, Novoa, Wellemeyer (long relief/middle inn.)

Gabe, you are correct and again I have over stated things. Its great to play post season baseball. I would love to see the Cubs in the playoffs every year. But I'm saying that the Braves should be viewed as a disappointment rather than be held up as some model.

But I'm saying that the Braves should be viewed as a disappointment rather than be held up as some model.

Bullshit. The playoffs are a crapshoot. The Braves are in a position to win the championship every single year, which should be a model for every franchise. Their player development, field management, and general management are outstanding.

...and send in Death

LMFAO, MikeC that is some good stuff.

If you haven't noticed 75% of all playoff teams are division winners....

And 100% of World Series winners are playoff teams. You need to make the cut to have a chance at winning the ring. I'll take 14 straight playoff appearances because then I'm still rooting for the Cubs in October instead of giving up on baseball entirely by August (or June, usually).

Regarding Koronka, if you were Hendry would you send a top prospect up to be misused and abused by an apparent lame-duck manager? I don't see how it's just not a matter of time before Dusty gets canned. If not, Hendry should start looking elsewhere because then the losing becomes his fault.

Chad-

My wife is from Georgia and down there, nobody talks about the braves being a disappointment. and I don't think any of us chicagoans would think the cubs a disappointment if they went to the playoffs every year either.

I'm not sure about the organization being held up as a model so much as the coach. give cox the credit he deserves. You never hear the "dusty hype" about him. wasn't that dusty's claim to fame? "i can get the most out of my players" Well, cox gets the most out of his and without screwing the farm system, creating a media frenzy, or pissing off the fans by putting them on blast for mistreatment of opposing players.

oops

Chad-

My wife is from Georgia and down there, nobody talks about the braves being a disappointment. and I don't think any of us chicagoans would think the cubs a disappointment if they went to the playoffs every year either.

I'm not sure about the organization being held up as a model so much as the coach. give cox the credit he deserves. You never hear the "dusty hype" about him. wasn't that dusty's claim to fame? "i can get the most out of my players" Well, cox gets the most out of his and without screwing the farm system, creating a media frenzy, or pissing off the fans by putting them on blast for mistreatment of opposing players.

Retro-Shiite, I'm calling you out here because you don't bother to put an email address in your posts so I can't email you directly. Personal attacks, especially those which contain profanity, are not acceptable on TCR. I have deleted your posts which contain them and if you keep doing it, you may be headed for time out.

Feel free to email me at [email protected] ifyou wishto discuss this further.

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