Hairston Up, Murton Down

No shocker here, Jerry Hairston was activated from the DL and Matt Murton was sent down to Iowa. Always good to know that it doesn't matter how well you play, just how long you've been in the league. Wonderful message to send to the prospects in the system!
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Comments

...and Jose Macias lives another day......

I say again, this is a chickenbleep move. This team is kidding itself with the Wild Card, and shoould be playing Murton everyday to see what they have for next year, no to mention the fact that he's outhitting the other choices right now!

Dumb move.

This isn't Baker's fault--he stil isn't the one activating and optioning people. Macias is completely useless now. He can't hit better than Hairston, he can't hit better than Murton, and with 5 infielders that aren't named Macias, the time was now. I can't decide if Hendry just doesn't give a damn about the caliber of players that fill out the roster or if the inmate is running the asylum, but screw both of them.

Has Hairston ever hit .339 for any stretch of his career?

Okay, I'm sure he has, but jeez. Although, at least Murton will be swinging at pitches every day. And it's only for what, another ten days?

''Damn near half my team is kids"-Dusty
I guess if you are under 30 you are a kid. Dusty's probably wondering why no one is talking up Lee for ROY.
And the vets in the pen served him well this year (Fox, Hawkins,Remlinger).
Poor Dusty.
Time to get Franco, Palmeiro, Bonds, so these damn kids would not be clogging the base baths with their walks.
This is move is beyond retarted. And Hendry is to blame also.

oh boo hoo...

if murton could hit righties or pull we wouldnt be seeing this...besides...

SEPTEMBER IS LESS THAN 2 WEEKS AWAY.

get a grip...he's not a pimp yet.

lawton's here...cpat's here...hairston's here...burnitz is here...and murton can pretty much only play LF.

its no big deal...the guy gets to ride a bus insted of a plane for another 2 weeks+

this isnt ryan howard or adrian gonzalez...

I am upset that Hendry wasted any time, energy or money bringing in Lawton...He has been a disappointment so far (especially when you look at his hitting and OBP)...He clearly is not a Lofton or a Juan Pierre...Yet, the Cubs really needed another reliable pitcher more than someone in Lawton's position...I would take Murton over Lawton in the field almost anyday of the week...We have Hairston too...Age (or salary) should not be a consideration...It's all about performance at this time of the year...The Cubs have to maximize their opportunity to win EVERY GAME -- and I'm not so sure they are doing that...I hope Lawton surprises me in the next 10 days.

Well so much for Hendry standing up to Dusty and saying "No Dusty, the kid stays". What a boneheaded move; the Braves haven't done this with their star rookie (can't remember his name) who came up the same day as Murton. Yet another blow to my belief (not that there was much left anyway) in Dustbag.

seriously...

some people need to take the "rookie" tag away and look at a player as a player...not some 360K a year paid daycare center.

look at what a guy can do NOW...not what you want him to do eventually.

there's a lot more to learning this game than getting 4-5ab's in games that count.

Well so much for Hendry standing up to Dusty and saying "No Dusty, the kid stays". What a boneheaded move; the Braves haven't done this with their star rookie (can't remember his name) who came up the same day as Murton. Yet another blow to my belief (not that there was much left anyway) in Dusty.

You can't blame Hendry for Lawton. There is very little evidence that he'd quit taking walks once he got here. It was a good move; it just hasn't panned out so far. Any rental guy is going to be hit or miss because you could get them during a cold stretch. That said, I think Lawton will figure it out.

Now the outfield I'm not so sure about.

and to you people who think dusty is strong arming hendry into making moves...

omfg...hendry's been at this longer than dusty has...

this is kinda insane...you cant move a marginal prospect down on this team without 10758924375892 people calling foul...at least wait until a real pimp comes up and is being blocked.

I'd rather have Murton than Macias or Holly, but at the same time, DFA'ing yet another veteran probably wouldn't be sending a great message to potential free agents.

"look at what a guy can do NOW...not what you want him to do eventually."

Dusty, is that you? I didn't know you read this page.

What if Darren Baker becomes a big leaguer one day. I wonder if Dusty will tell his manager not to play him until he's 32?

I must say, I did not know that the Cubs were in the business of hiring or employing pimps, but instead attempted to field a baseball team.

Murton will be back in 2 weeks, but that doesn't excuse the move - which should have been to DFA Hollandsworth. Because every damned team now has 12+ pitchers, guys like Macias fill a role, but outfielders who can't hit don't.

andrew...you wanna come with substance?

LET ME TYPE IN CAPS SO YOU CAN SEE THROUGH YOUR OWN SARCASM...

MURTON IS NOT A READY PLAYER...

MURTON HAS REAL PROBLEMS WITH RIGHTIES...

MURTON IS A PROJECT IN DEVELOPMENT...

MURTON NEEDS TO LEARN HOW TO PULL A BALL...

AND...SEPTEMBER IS 2 WEEKS AWAY...

heheh...this is so much not a big deal. there's no way he was gonna start every game there anyway...not until the cubs are outta it. whether anyone here feels the cubs are in it or not dont matter...this organzation is still trying.

How could the Cubs get rid of Macias? I mean with him and the other untouchable vets so far their demanding lead in division... I mean the wild card... I mean oh I bet the Brewers are sweating now!!!

This is fucking retarded as are anyone defending this.

until this team brings up a 3rd baseback up macias isnt going anywhere...

and besides...macias is the hottest hitter off the bench since the a/s break and that in itself is highly screwed up.

DFA'ing yet another veteran probably wouldn't be sending a great message to potential free agents.

What? If you suck, you won't play for us. What a horrible message to send!!! The guys we've been DFA'ing were marginal vets in the last years of their contract and what do they care if they get DFA'ed. They still get paid.

Crunch, look at how the other playing as well. Murton is not a "pimp" yet, but is he playing better than Coey? Burnitz? Holly? Macias? Hairston? Lawton?
Christ....the OF of Holly-CPat-Macias wiill be just great....
What should the Cubs do..keep Murton, or any other prospect in the minors until they are 26-27? Then we'll hear.."they're not really a prospect."

Crunch, I respect your opinion, and agree on a lot of things, but your argument here just doesn't make sense.

I'm amazed at your ability to skirt the point, Crunch, which is not that he sent Murton down, but that he did kept a terrible hitter who is the walking, talking, singles-if-I'm-lucky definition of "redundant" to do it. Macias isn't a project. He's not in development. He can't hit righties, lefties, power pitchers, knuckerballers, finesse guys, or take a walk against Andy Pratt.

I think DFA'ing Holly doesn't make a difference to incoming free agents. What free agent thinks he's gonna suck before his contract is out? None of them do.

"this is fucking retarded"

"Dusty, is that you?"

etc etc etc

how about some of you tell us...WHY SHOULD MURTON STAY...what qualities is he bringing to this team, especially vs. righties (who youre gonna face 3/4 of the time anyway).

how about some substance behind these remarks...i really wanna know why lawton is bad and murton is good. i also wanna know why its such a world-ender to have murton down for 2+ weeks...he has provided VERY little for this team this year except vs. lefties.

Let Murton develop up in the big leagues, for Christ sakes. To think he will get anything out of AAA only have to look as far as Kevin Orie and Kelton, 4-A players who destroyd AAA pitching but sucked in the bigs.
THis team is not going to the playoffs.Wake-up!!!

"until the Cubs are out of it?"
Um..when will that officially happen, 'cause right now, they must be on some extremely good life support.

You should run the Cubs Crunch, since you can tell in 20-25 ABs that a player has "real problems" with RHPs.....

Against righties? Okay.

Player X: 200/292/350
Player Y: 283/292/337

Indistinguishable, except for the fact that Player X is actually going to improve once his batting average rebounds.

And be sure to quit booing also, DFAing vets and booing them are taboo.

In fact who wants to join me in washing Holly's and Macias' cars when they get back from Colorado.

ron...

on thing people are forgetting here is hendry makes moves, not dusty.

also...macias is the only 3rd base backup for mr. sketchy groin we got playing at 3rd.

hopefully fontenot is the solution off the bench in the future, but for 2 years hendry has given this team macias for that role.

and i think people are getting a bit carried away with murton.

he has real problems no matter what his overall #s show...

he has problems with righties, he needs to learn how to make contact better when pulling, a lot of his contact is way flatter than it should be and he dont put much in LF.

a lotta his problems with righties is cuz they bust him in OVER AND OVER cuz they know he cant pull for shit and will make weak contact if he dont K to begin with.

you're gonna see 3/4+ of your work vs. righties...now THAT is an issue.

and the big issue...SEPTEMBER IS 2 WEEKS AWAY!!!!!

its no huge deal...murton can pretty much only play LF and well, lawton's there.

""until the Cubs are out of it?"
Um..when will that officially happen, 'cause right now, they must be on some extremely good life support.

You should run the Cubs Crunch, since you can tell in 20-25 ABs that a player has "real problems" with RHPs....."

that is TOTALLY WITHOUT SUBSTANCE...

if you dont know murton has problems with righties, you havent been watching.

if you wanna attack me for some crap i have no control over cuz it makes you feel better, whatever.

i have no control over what murton does at the plate, but im not blind.

True that Hendry makes the moves, but don't you get the sense that he's trying to give Dusty every thing he asks for (i.e. more of Dusty's toys) so that it'll be easier to fire him later.

Of course ask Dusty and the finger's always pointed at someone else.

I agree, Crunch. It's not THAT big a deal in the scheme of things. Still I don't think it's a good move so I'll "come with some substance" (though, forgive me, without the caps).

"Murton is not a ready player." Yet he's hitting .339 showing good patience and ability to go the other way. Sounds better than the alternatives of Macias and Holly if you ask me.

"Murton has real problems with righties." Uh huh, and so does Todd Hollandsworth. Lefties, too, for that matter.

"Murton is a player in development." Last I checked, being a dead dog in a playoff race is a good time to employ players in development. Plus, by sending him down, I believe we just used an option year on him, meaning we just lost one year of development we would have kept by keeping him ten more days.

"Murton needs to learn to pull the ball." Not sure I agree but doesn't most of this team only pull the ball. Gosh, it sure was nice to see a guy go the other way once in a while.

"And...September is 2 weeks away..." Very true. But that's two weeks more that we have to watch Hollandsworth and Macias rub their salaries in our faces. And, as mentioned, those measly two weeks just cost us an option year for Matt Murton. While I think we'll know Murton is ready or not ready to be MLB ready before two years is out, it's still not a real smart move to waste an option year when you don't need to.

And, Crunch, if we're "still trying" by optioning the better offensive option for a guy recently off the DL and thus avoiding two worthless bench players, then I say we give up.

of course hendry/baker have a dialogue, but like shur/cox in atl...he can only play with what he's given.

hendry/mcphail has been at this before dusty was still deciding what he was gonna do after his playing days were over.

Quit comparing AAA to the Bigs, its night and day.Cubs have an extraordinary chance to actually develop a kid without playoff pressure for the remainder of this year.

"how about some of you tell us...WHY SHOULD MURTON STAY...what qualities is he bringing to this team, especially vs. righties (who youre gonna face 3/4 of the time anyway)."

Crunch, the issue really isn't "why should Murton stay"? It's rather "why should Holly/Macias not go"?

the problem with calling the season over is hendry/dusty arent.

you cant make it so cuz you want it.

that's something we're working with as "reality" here as fans.

no matter what we thing hendry/dusty have both said theyre not giving up yet.

no amount of personal want will change that til losses come.

--

"Not sure I agree but doesn't most of this team only pull the ball. Gosh, it sure was nice to see a guy go the other way once in a while."

yes..he has to pull the ball

he already know how to go the other way, he hits center and outside damn well.

I have a hard time believing that Neifi wouldn't do just as well in a spot role at 3B, but whatever--as people have pointed out, it doesn't matter much, because this season is mostly lost regardless of what happens to 50 PAs at the margin.

I just don't want to see any pieces of well-established crap back next year.

guys...

it is VITAL that murton learns to pull the ball...this is not something you "learn" in in-game situations...this is a drill practice.

this can be done in my own backyard if i had a mound and murton around for a few months.

this is also something that dont happen overnight...the cubs have been working on it since they got him.

cubs got a guy here with a killer eye who can make contact...there is no reason to say "oh youre done" just cuz he can hit lefties...

you guys want another choi? someone who can take a walk and hit middle/outside but cant go inside for shit?

this is a real development issue, but with his eyes and tools he can overcome it with a better chance than a lotta his peers....BUT HE HASNT DONE IT YET...NOR IS SEEING A FEW WEEKS OF AB'S GONNA DO IT.

sorry, that's just the way it is...

try to enjoy the guy for what he is, not what you think he can be...if you dont youre gonna get hyped up over 3-4 rookies every year just to be vastly disappointed and looking for people to blame.

It'd be nice to have a manager who takes interest in such 'development'. Oh I forgot, they have to learn by themselves.

I know you say Murton has to learn to pull the ball. But that's the quickest way to screw him up in the head. If he's pull-conscious, his patience will go to hell and his average will drop because he'll be jumping at the ball, trying to get it out front. Guys who are natural pull hitters can learn to go the other way because it means waiting on the ball longer, seeing it longer. Guys who are inside-out type hitters are going to get screwed up in the head if you try to tell them to pull the ball.

justin...no he HAS to learn to pull

has to.

no option. its an organizational direction he's gonna go to no matter what we think anyway.

he cannot leave himself that exposed to righties and have a good career unless you wanna see him get 200ab's a year vs. mostly lefties.

the guy's bat is too good to not plug that hole and it would be practically a crime not to.

I for one like this move. Yes I'd rather have Murton playing everyday. But since he obviously isn't going to, I want him playing everyday in AAA so he can keep his stroke and timing right. The team is going to get an overhaul come winter anyway. I imagine murton will do quite well in the spring and find his way into LF. Though I'd like the kid to find a little more power. It was nice to see his first homerun. I don't care if he hits 30+, but around 15-20 would be nice for our corner outfielder. Though I really did enjoy him simply getting on base.

I will agree with all the this is bullshit though too. His line:
56 AB
.339 avg
.415 OBP good god almighty. that sticks out like a sore thumb on this team
.464 SLG
8 walks
11 SO's not bad but could be better

I definitely like what I saw in this kid.

Josh

I understand. And to some degree, I think to not be a pull hitter if you're right-handed at Wrigley Field is a mistake. I'm just saying that it's going to screw him up. Just my feeling.

murton's really nice...if he can just put in the pitcher's head he is capable of pulling the ball and dropping it into LF it will SEVERELY change his game vs. righties.

he will see more of the stuff he knows how to hit well and will be able to remind people with old advance scouting reports that they need to update their info on him...

Even if you placed Murton ahead of Holly (which I certainly do), he'd still be our 5th outfielder. I'm with Crunch on this one, the more that I think about it. I think we have more to gain in the long run by giving Murton 10 days of full playing time in the minors and brining him up when we are out of the playoffs in September to play full time...then we do by having him on the bench with maybe 1 or 2 starts over the next 10 days.

Okay, here's a reason to keep Murton and DFA Holly - because Lawton's there to hit against righties, and Holly has 36 AB's against lefties all year, with a .278/.350/.417 split. (Holly vs righties? .249/.294/.385). No reason you can't keep the kid around and see how he'll do - it's not like you lose anything.

Okay, to clarify:

1. Just because you and I are familiar with Macias' and Holly's general crappiness, that doesn't mean other players a) are as familiar with their performance, or b) feel the same way. And if you don't believe that, just take a look at our favorite manager and his continuing faith in both Macias' and Holly's abilities; do you think he'd be thrilled if they were dumped for Murton? Do you think Dusty, who is pretty popular among players, would be the only one in Major League Baseball who would think it a low class move to drop a third vet in one season? Especially after you've fallen out of the playoff hunt and only a few days before September call ups?

2. Players have agents. Typical agents represent many players. DFA an agent's player and you probably don't make him very happy. When it comes time to negotiate with that agent a year or two later, you can bet your ass he'll be taking into account how you've treated his players in the past.
.

I just don't like the message it sends. A guy hits .339 and it's not enough to stick around. A guy plays like shit all year (Holly) and he does.

That said, yes, Murton could use the regular PT, and it is only for ten days. So it's tolerable.

yeah, there's a legit murton vs. holly arguement...but to DFA holly when you can get murton back in 2 weeks anyway...meh...

"I think we have more to gain in the long run by giving Murton 10 days of full playing time in the minors"

Except that for those 10 days, we lost an option year on him.

We can downplay their chances, but the fact is pretty clear that, for whatever ill-founded reason, the Cubs believe they still have a chance to make a WC push. They haven't shelved Wood and all comments to the media are optimistic, though they recognize that they need to move RIGHT NOW.

What's truly disturbing about this particular move (even if temporary) is that, now that push is coming to shove, the Cubs have made the conscious decision that in the crunch, this team is better off with Holly, Macias, and Hairston on their bench and with Murton in Iowa. I don't even believe you can argue that this decision is financial; the season is 75% over and these guys' salaries have largely been paid.

This decision is clearly based on the belief that, today, Murton (.339/.415/.464) is worse than Holly (.253/.302/.389), Macias (.294/.312/.353) and Hairston (.261/.341/.382). I don't believe this belief is founded in anything other than MLB experience; it certainly isn't founded on any statistical measure.

A move like this makes me think that when it comes to next season, Murton and Cedeno have no chance -- zero -- of winning starting roles, even if they hit the crap out of the ball in the Winter Leagues and Spring Training, and even if the veterans in front of them get hurt and/or suck.

This team will either resign Nomar next year or spend millions on Furcal. They may very well spend millions on Neifi.

In the OF, they will spend millions on corner OFers who they will want to rely upon instead of Murton. Perhaps Burnitz and/or Lawton will be back, but whether they return or the team finds a new corner OFer, Murton will not be in the team's plans.

This is just a horrible, horrible signal for the future of this team.

DeJesusFreak..please look beyond the flat #s for answers to your mysteries.

murton's problem isnt dusty or hendry...and murton was brought up from AA to play...its not like they hate they guy.

murton's problems lie within himself...he's lucky he got 20 chances vs. righties to begin with since it was an issue before he even came up.

To #48:

Agents are in the business of getting their clients the most money possible. You know how many FA's sign for a lower price cause they want to play for a certain team. I'd bet less then 1%. The guy still gets paid, all it does is bruise his ego, he'll get over it when he's vacationing in Hawaii.

DFA'ing players has NO effect on the FA market. Dropping Maddux or not playing Walker so they don't reach contract incentives, that would cause some problems. IF anything, DFA'ing a player just says you want to win.

God, I was hoping it wasn't Murton to go, just so I wouldn't have to read the whiny complaints about it here. Such is life. FYI, Murton's not the only prospect in baseball who came up for a cup of coffee, did well and got sent back down due to a roster situation. He'll be back in September and probably in '06. Like he's going to make a difference in what happens the rest of the way or that sending him down for two week is going to wreck his confidence forever. Man.

Way to be above it all Bob.
Any Dusty defending comments to go with your b.s. today?
You may detect sarcasm.

Let me add that if Holly had been DFA'd and Murton kept, fine by me. The hand-wringing over it is ridiculous, though.

murton was demoted cause he has options, no other reason. Nothing about holes in his swing or things to work on in his game. Dustychild still want 12 pitchers and Dusty believes Holly is his defensive whiz for the end of games. He also doesn't like rookies to pinch-hit. Macias has been hot. And they still think they can win it.....good for them.

I don't like the move, nor the message, but you can't be surprised by it.

And a side note about Murton hitting righties...what the hell do you think he was doing in the minors? He got 20 AB's in the majors, a fair number in pinch-hitting duties I believe. Fair to say he put up his numbers in the minors facing mostly righties, isn't it?

"Macias is completely worthless"....hmm, I seem to remember him coming up with a big hit the other day and generally hitting pretty well off the bench lately....which is HIS ROLE on the team. More pointlessness in the complaining...

We may just be sick of seeing crappy retreads thrown out on the field, and marginal veterans being valued over young players.
Just a thought..

--murton's problems lie within himself...he's lucky he got 20 chances vs. righties to begin with since it was an issue before he even came up.

Huh? He's managed to hit .342/.403/.498 at West Tenn in 313 ABs. I'm guessing that these didn't all come against LHP.

By what tangible means can you suggest that Holly, Macias, and Hairston are all better options?

for a guy that dont like rookies to pinch hit he gave murton 11 chances to do it in 5 weeks.

and 20 40 or 80 ab's vs. righties will probally produce similar results until he fixes his swing.

the fact he cant pull has righties pounding him..until he can put in a pitcher's head he can go in, he's not gonna see that middle/outside stuff he feasts on...for reference, check out mr. choi.

No, I know better than to defend Dusty here anymore. You're a bunch of rabid anti-Dusty-ites (props to anyone who gets that reference).

The point, "Dusty Baylor," is that the hue and cry over this Murton stuff is laughable in my opinion. If the Cubs were officially eliminated and did this, then you'd have something to wail about. And, no, I'm not one of the people that think this playoff push *is* going to happen. But I am one of the people is going to hope like hell it does, and until that time, I've got no problem with Hendry (that's right, Hendry did this) making a move that he thinks is best.

As stated, I would've had no problem with Holly going bye-bye instead, but the reaction to this far outweighs its importance. Then again, that happens every day here.

deJesusFreak...if mlb was full of lefties or guys that never pitched inside, moving murton down for 2 weeks would be a high crime, but baseball dont work like that on this level.

The right move was to DFA Holly and trade him to a true contender in 10 days, if they'd actually want him. The season is all but over, the cubs have a 2% chance of winning the WC. It ain't gonna happen. So instead of letting Murton play and develop at the ML level we're going to play two players who at their absolute best are league average and downright crappy (Holly and Macias respectively). If Ramirez isn't gonna play, put Hairston at 3rd. If that doesn't work, absolute worst case Neifi can. The point is there's absolutely no reason to have Macias and Holly on the roster.

Well Murton must equal Choi, because Choi came up and hit so well....oh, wait...

80 whole ab's against righties? That sample size is waaaaay too big to be accurate...

Well, the move must make sense, since the team is full of kids anyway...

murton has no development to do at this level.

his problems are drill-related.

wasting him in-game vs. a right is just that, a waste.

and dusty baylor...what makes you think the baseless areguement you have will help murton come inside.

get this straight...read this...

this is not an arguement...this is something murton has to fix...you cannot make it in the bigs with that kind of hole vs. righties.

you HAVE to AT LEAST put into a pitcher's mind you can go inside...and if you dont, youre gonna get pounded and youre not gonnna see anything from a righty but a mistake.

the point isnt how many ab's...the point is HE CANT DO IT YET.

there is no amount of bitching that will make it so...only drills. only practice. only seeing it...

this is not a small issue, but its something believed he can overcome.

you cant piss away 3/4 of all possible a/b's in mlb...

Hello, Hairston has played ONE INNING at 3B in his MLB career. He's not a 3B. At least Macias can give an impression of being one. "No point in having Macias on the roster." It's that kind of analysis that brings me back.

im sick of macias, myself..but until fontenot comes up or hendry ends his obsession with him, he's here.

reality vs. what we want as fans are 2 different things and some people get persons defending reality mixed up with dusty-lovers.

im a cubs fan, not a dusty fan...i could mostly care less what lineup jockey is filling out a lineup card...esp. a guy like dusty who's a pretty damn ordinary manager.

PBishop...im basing it on common knowlege about him.

baseball is more than the majors.

i think ive said a bit about dubois before and got bashed on the SAME CRAP...assuming all i know about baseball is mlb.

look, dont shoot the messenger.

im not saying ANYTHING that isnt already being addressed by others who are well more connected to murton.

and if you dont know the difference between AA/AAA and MLB i dunno where to start...

Perez at 3b? Anyone..oh, that's right, Nomar is hurt....great.

Crunch, the "baseless" argument is this
1)Lets see Murton against some rhps consistently before we judge.
2) He still has played better than the other options in the OF.
3) We lose an option year in sending him down.
4)He can work on pulling the ball every day, in the off season, and in spring training.
5:The Cubs are out of it..period!

What value does Macias have on this team other than filling a roster spot at 3x the cost of a minor league free agent who can produce at a higher level? His 665 ops, inability to walk, inability to hit for more than a single (7 extra base hits out of 35! .353 slg!), and ability to play multiple defensive positions at a substandard level have done little to help the team. Sure, you can point to one time where macias the blind squirrel found a nut, but he's 9-41 as a pinch hitter this year. I'll say that again, 9 for 41. His line as a PH is a mendoza-esque 220/250/293. That is plain and simple awful. How can you possibly defend that?

dusty...lemmie break this down for you...

1)Lets see Murton against some rhps consistently before we judge.

- murton didnt show up in baseball 2 months ago out of no where..his issues didnt pop up out of no where. his issues are well documented and honestly, you guys should have been able to see this for yourself.

2) He still has played better than the other options in the OF.

- murton is not known for his glove

3) We lose an option year in sending him down.

- i dont think anyone is worried about murton 3-4 years from not being out of options and what to do with him

4)He can work on pulling the ball every day, in the off season, and in spring training.

- yes he can...hopefully he can show the club something this winter before we're stuck with a mid-level useless LF'r

5:The Cubs are out of it..period!

- just cuz you want it to be doesnt mean the organization is going that way...kerry wood's still in the pen and hendry came out to say theyre not giving up yet. no amount of bitching will change that, just more losses. me and you have nothing to do with it.

Oh yeah, Murton's line as a PH this year: 250/400/250, so even as a rookie PH without the experience he's still outperforming Macias. Again I ask why is Macias still on the roster, other than Hendry and the Cubs don't grasp the relatively simple concept of a sunk cost.

Murton's been playing ball for close to 20 years and he can't pull the ball. That's absolute nonsense, he would've been eaten up in college, high school, A ball, AA, rookie ball you name it, if he couldn't handle balls on the inner half.

"- murton is not known for his glove"

Crunch, is Lawton known for his glove? Hairston?
Hollandsworth? That's bs, and you know it.

You keep saying that AA/AAA isnt the MLB, well no shit, sherlock. But, as a track record, that is what we have to go on,. and Murton has hit well in his career, and even managed to get a few hits off of the righties.. Murton has been getting on base better than the alternatives, and that is what this team needs.

i dunno how to say this more clearly...

read this, people...

murton's problem is not his numbers. murton's problem is not dusty. murton's problem is not hendry.

murton's problem is his inability to go inside.

that causes pitchers, espeically right handed pitchers, to pound him inside.

since his contact is weak there he strikes out or makes weak contact inside.

now...until he fixes that, he will NOT see a pitcher work the plate vs. him...he will NOT see the middle/outside stuff he feasts on.

this has everything to do with how a pitcher pitches to him. everything...

he gives a right handed pitcher no incentive to work him, just to pound him inside, something MLB pitchers can do cuz they got the control and/or power to do it.

WITHOUT PUTTING IN A PITCHER'S MIND HE CAN DO IT, HE WILL CONTINUE TO GET POUNDED.

he has to turn that corner before he's a mlb-ready hitter and this is an on-going process...this didnt start 5 weeks ago and its not some new revelation.

hope that's a bit clearer...cuz its got everything to do with his game and his future.

Re: Macias
I can "defend" him by saying that he's a utility player, can play 2B/3B/OF adquately (yes, that's right, adequately; he's probably below adequate in the OF, but that's where he plays the least). If you're going to bash Macias for being 9-41 as a pinch hitter, where's the love for him being 26-76 when he's elsewhere in the lineup (.342)? Can we not accept a utility player who is hitting .294 and has come up with a few big hits. Plus, he can run. The outcry over him has been ridiculous all year, and it's even more so now -- when he's hitting well over .300 since the all-start break and contributing MORE than he did before.

Having said all that, I could give a rat's ass if he retired tomorrow. But in the role he has on this team, HE IS NOT A PROBLEM. Get over it.

Ok Crunch you're right...how could I have not seen this your way....LOL!!!!
We disagree here, not on whether or not he needs to pull the ball more, but on whether or not he should have been sent down.

Crunch - The problem is that even assuming all you say is true, Murton even with all his problems is still a better hitter than Macias. That is why this is just a poor, poor move.

dusty...this isnt my way...as much as you want this to do with me, it doesnt.

psst..it has nothing to do with you either.

Do you think in the 15-20 years that he's been playing ball that he hasn't seen a pitch on the inner half of the plate? I'll bet he's seen it a lot and hit it well on every level he's played at. If he hadn't it would have been exploited against him at the college level and definitely in AA. He can pull the ball, no hitter gets as far as he has without being able to.

Murton has had 8 at-bats as a pinch hitter...this is what's it's come to, defending Murton as a pinch hitter with 2 hits in 8 ABs... .250 vs. .220 in a much smaller sample size...alrighty then.

TEM
Macias can play 4-5 postions
Macias is hitting .290+ in 119 at bats
Macias is a switch hitter negating late inning pitching match ups that's important for a PH.

There are far, far, far worse fill in players with less than 150 at bats all across the league.

There is a big difference between hitting .250 with a .260OBP and hitting .290 with a .310 OBP

Macias shouldn't get more than a spot start to spell people...but as a Pinch hitter or injury fill in, I think he has shown he is well worth is money this year.

When Macias is your #1 pinch hitter off the bench you have a lousy team.

*Looks at team record* Check.

pbishop...you think a little leaguer or a college hitter can hit 3/4 of mlb pitching?

cuz they cant. most people cant consistantly hit mlb pitching...that's why they make the big bucks.

this game isnt as simple as looking at some #s.

look at the players.

hahaha mike

That's a good point, MikeC, though irrelevant to the discussion.

If those that run the cubs don't see Macias as a problem, than they themselves are part of the problem. At his best he is not even a league average player. Macias is simply a redundant player, Neifi fills the role that Macias currently holds more than adequately, and Macias' OF abilities are simply not needed as Hairston can backup at CF.

this has been interesting...im off to watch joe bochard tool his AAAA ass off vs. the durham bulls.

any snide remarks or clueless statements please refer to my above remarks and pretend im saying it for the 10th time.

Macias is a redundant player, and highlights the flaws of this cubs team/management. The bench is absolutely pathetic and it is shown by those who claim that Macias is the best player off the bench

The Cubs moves have nothing to do with me, true, but if I limited my opinions and discussions to those things that did involve me, it'd be a boring life...

"Crunch - The problem is that even assuming all you say is true, Murton even with all his problems is still a better hitter than Macias. That is why this is just a poor, poor move."

Murton can't play 3rd base, that's reason enough why Macias is here and murton isn't. With Cpat, Hairy, Lawton, Burnitz, Hollandsworth there are already 5 Outfielders, and in case of emergency Macias would be the 6th. Where as, in the infield you have neify and hairy, with Normar playing less than full time leaving hairy as the only full time back up...and I don't believe he plays 3B at all.

I have a strong feeling, from Hendry down it wouldn't be a battle between Macias and Murton...they serve very different roles...it would be between Murton and Holly.

This makes me wonder why Murton was up at all. If, as Crunch says, he has problems against RHP, then he should not have been brought up at all and allowed to work out these problems in AA, AAA. I know the other OF options at Iowa reek, but why would you put a young player in a situation where you assume he's going to fail? That'll mess up his head quicker than anything.

I think what most people are reacting to is that he WAS brought up to play, and then didn't play as much as expected, and is now being sent down. As fans, we're tired of the excuses from management, and we're sure tired of waiting. The team is out of it, so IMO you lose nothing by seeing what Murton has as a full time LF for the rest of the year, and if he has problems with RHP then you have the batting coach work with him before the game. And that goes back to, are the coaches doing their jobs? Because fundamentally, it sure doesn't look like it at all.

"The bench is absolutely pathetic and it is shown by those who claim that Macias is the best player off the bench"
I absolutely agree that it's a big problem for the team that Macias is one of the best option off the bench...no doubt...but I think as a minimally used fill in player, he has done just fine.

---deJesusFreak...if mlb was full of lefties or guys that never pitched inside, moving murton down for 2 weeks would be a high crime, but baseball dont work like that on this level.

Sure. Still, whether you think Murton can pull the ball or not, there is one thing we do know so far: Murton is absolutely KILLING LHPs, far better than Holly, Macias, Hairston, or the other non/semi-starters.

Are you (or anyone else) trying to suggest that, as the Cubs try to make their dramatic push over the nest two weeks, that the team doesn't need a LH killer on their bench?

That they are better off a utility guy (Macias) that is not nearly as good as another guy that does the same thing (Hairston)?

That they need another LH outfield stiff (Holly) when the starter (Lawton) is both LH and better?

Murton is still developing, sure, but the fact is that even today, Dusty has far more productive use for him than most other guys. As it stands now, Murton is the best bench guy they have against LHP.

-- murton's problem is his inability to go inside.

-- that causes pitchers, espeically right handed pitchers, to pound him inside.

-- since his contact is weak there he strikes out or makes weak contact inside.

I'm not saying this is true. Still, even if you're right, I'd STILL want Murton on my bench as a PH against LHPs over the next 2 weeks than a redundancy (Macias/Hairston) or a mediocrity (Holly).

Neifi can more than adequately fill in at 3b, and even though he hasn't played a lot of innings at 3b, Hairston can too. And it's not like there's a helluva lot of innings available at 3b as if the cubs are going to contend Aramis needs to play every day.

The roster is so poorly constructed it's somewhat amusing, and most of this discussion could be eliminated if the cubs wooke up and realized they don't need to keep 12 pitchers on the roster. For all the good Hendry does at finding the big pieces of the puzzle, he has a remarkably difficult time with the little pieces.

"This makes me wonder why Murton was up at all. If, as Crunch says, he has problems against RHP, then he should not have been brought up at all and allowed to work out these problems in AA, AAA. I know the other OF options at Iowa reek, but why would you put a young player in a situation where you assume he's going to fail? That'll mess up his head quicker than anything"

At the time he was brought up, we didn't have Lawton, Holly was in a major slump, and Dubois was gone....we are a tiny bit deeper now which makes a difference.

I am not against Murton as Crunch appears to be, but I don't think Murton was set up to fail, I don't think this move sends a horrific message, and I think it will have a net sum of ZERO effect on the Cubs and Murton...if anything, it will help Murton a bit more to get more playing time.

Right now, he'd be behind Burnitz, Lawton, Hairy, and CPAT in the outfield with Holly in the mix too. I personally think he was expendable at the moment with little problem...although same could be said for Holly as well.

"Murton can't play 3rd base, that's reason enough why Macias is here and murton isn't."

Neifi can play 3B. Walker can play 3B. Hairston can play 3B. Heck, Barrett has played 3B.

They don't need another guy that can do it.

Rob:

I don't know what to tell you other than that I've had a chance to speak with a number of player agents and general counsels of professional sports teams (who are as involved in the signing as the GM, for the most part), and a lot more goes into contract negotiations than salary and length of contract. "Respect" (or more appropriately, ego) is one of the key factors, and players want to play for an organization they feel will show proper respect to them.

Yes, part of that is money, but a big part of it has to do with the organization and its reputation. That's why players direct their agents to speak only to certain teams, why agents will make certain demands of one team that they wouldn't make of another, why players will end up with restricted no-trade clauses in their contracts, etc. If it were all about the player getting the biggest salary for the longest guaranteed length of time, I doubt we'd have Walker, Garicaparra, Rusch, Ramirez, or Barrett on this team right now.

Hendry has been able to sign some good players to very good contracts because 1) they trust him to put together a competitive team and 2) they trust him to treat them with the respect they feel they deserve (never going to arbitration, bumping Nomar's guaranteed money when the budget allowed, etc.). In short, Hendry has worked hard to build goodwill. DFA'ing several players in a short span of time, especially when you've fallen out of contention and you're just doing it to let a rookie play, burns away some of that goodwill.

I'm not trying to say that if the Cubs DFA'd Holly or Macias they'd never be able to sign a decent free agent again. I'm just pointing out that in a business full of contractual negotiations, actions have consequences. I don't think the benefit of giving Murton 5 or 6 more at bats between now and September 1st really justifies the consequences of DFA'ing yet another player.

Holly's career has pretty much been one long slump, save for the '04 season, which was so far out of line with his career norms that anyone expecting a repeat needs to share whatever they're smoking with me immediately. This isn't to say that Holly doesn't have a role - 5th outfielder (on a good team), good pinch hitter, but on a team like the Cubs managed by the village idiot who insists on playing veterans simply becuase they are older and have MLB experience he's just a hindrance

"Neifi can play 3B. Walker can play 3B. Hairston can play 3B. Heck, Barrett has played 3B."

Each of those guys have other positions to play last I checked. If Nomar was at full strength, then there is less of a need for Macias...but right now we are deeper in the outfield then infield so I really don't think Macias was ever on the line to be sent down.

And yes, this team is constructed poorly...but it's constructed poorly with or without Murton.

Hi, deJesusFreak? Could you cut it out with all the logic and common sense and stuff? It's very unreasonable...

Tem, Dubois had his chance and failed pretty miserably...I personally think Murton was given close to a reasonable chance (Although I would have liked to see hinm in a few more games). I blame Holly more on Hendry for assuming Dubois/Holly were good enough to replace Alou, then for Baker for playing Holly as much as he did.

Another perspective on Murton.

In his first 29 at bats, he had 14 hits.
In his last 27 at bats, he has had 5 hits.

56 AB's is a very small sample to begin with. But honestly, most of the discussion here is really based on what Murton did over his first 29 at bats, making it a tiny sample. I don't think any of us on either side, truly know what Murton is capable of over a long stretch.

Re: Murton's option years

Unless I'm misunderstanding the rule, as long as Murton is recalled within 20 days (and he will be) no option will be expended this season.

There may be a lot of reasons not to like the move, but concern over Murton's option years shouldn't be one of them. At least I don't think so.

Here's an example of a very similar situation from the Texas Rangers a couple years ago (courtesy Jamey Newberg): "...if a player is sent down to the minor leagues but is recalled before 20 days expire, no option is triggered. On August 12, 2003, Texas purchased the contract of Juan Dominguez, who was not previously on the 40-man roster - meaning no option had been used on him before. On August 23, the Rangers sent him back to the farm... Texas recalled him on September 10...solely because it meant his optional assignment would last only 18 days - and accordingly no option was exhausted. Dominguez was therefore on his first option in 2004."

[Source: Newberg Report 2005 Bound Edition, pp. 59-60; visit NewbergReport.com for details]

Hi, Adam? Could you cut it out with all the logic and common sense and stuff? It's very unreasonable...

"Neifi can play 3B. Walker can play 3B. Hairston can play 3B. Heck, Barrett has played 3B."

--Each of those guys have other positions to play last I checked.

Uh, yeah. In case you haven't noticed, we already have a starting 3B. If push came to shove, you could:

a. Put Neifi at 3B and Nomar at SS
b. Put Hairston at 3B
c. Put Walker at 3B and Hairston at 2B
d. Put Barrett at 3B and Blanco at C

My point is that you don't need Macias as a backup.

Murton's not a pimp, he's not being "cock-blocked". Send him to the minors until he becomes a pimp. The Cubs don't need smart, fundamentally-sound players, they need pimps... just ask crunch. He's an internet talent scout and knows a pimp when he sees one.

If there's one thing professional wrestling has taught me its that pimpin' ain't easy.

Murton's not a pimp

Murton is a pimp against LHPs -- the best pimp they've got on their bench. Considering that the team believes it is making a playoff push, isn't it more important to have a pimp available to PH against LHPs than it is to have a second utility guy (Macias) who can't do anything?

Hi,

Anyone who doesn't think the Cubs (Hendry, Baker, Players) still consider themselves in post season, is wrong. Why would they skip William's spot in the rotation otherwise? Given that, it's pretty obvious that you don't need 4 left fieldes, and the other position Murton plays already has backups, what purposed does he serve? He wasn't hitting well, he's not needed for the bench, and he wasn't developing as well as he would give every-day playing time.

"big john stud"

umm...nice one. i tell you what's up with a player you talk smack.

once you find out what murton can do come talk to me and the rest of us.

for the rest of you who wanna call me out over this crap, tell me something i need to know, not poke at me over stupid crap.

read above about murton. be a jackass if you want, but if you dont believe it, you got no biz talking about murton.

you're fooled by numbers, enough said.

math is scarey, huh?

go ahead and tell me what i said was wrong, or better yet prove what i said was wrong.

you cant.

you just cant.

murton's game is no secret.

seriously, go ahead and pick apart what ive said about murton. just do it. show me where im wrong. show me what i said isnt true. just do it. you wanna attack me or you wanna tell people what's up with murton that you see that's so damn important 2 weeks in the minor is just gonna ruin his career.

go ahead...

i swear..this is dubois all over again..

as if i pull this stuff outta this air...geez...

No, crunch - you're right, as always. Murton's not a pimp. The Cubs don't need anti-pimps like Murton.
And I would never talk smack! Only pimps do that...

#109 of 118: By jgross68 (August 19, 2005 02:25 PM)
Re: Murton's option years

Unless I'm misunderstanding the rule, as long as Murton is recalled within 20 days (and he will be) no option will be expended this season.

There may be a lot of reasons not to like the move, but concern over Murton's option years shouldn't be one of them. At least I don't think so.

--

Yes! Excellent!

Starting with the modified CBA that took effect in 2002, a player optioned to the minors for less than 20 days does not cost the club an option, but in return, the player continues to accrue MLB service time during the period. And as has been the case for many years, a player optioned to the minors must remain there for a minimum of 10 days, unless he is recalled to replace a player who is placed on the DL.

So any player optioned to the minors August 12th or later can be recalled on September 1st without an option being expended. Therefore, it will not cost the Cubs an option year on Murton to send him down at this point in time, as long as he is recalled prior to September 8th (that is, before the 20 days are up).

big john...once again...thanks for the insight...your baseball knowlege and insight into murton has totally changed my mind.

i promised not to piss in your sandbox anymore.

pttth.

Neifi at SS again tonite.

thanks crunch... I appreciate your respect. It means a great deal to me.

pttth...

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