**********************Last updated 8-27-2014
Cubs Depth ChartCubs 40-Man Roster InfoMLB Rules Info
39 players on RESERVE LIST (one slot is open), plus one player on 60-DAY DL
25 players on ACTIVE LIST, plus four players on 15-DAY DL and 10 players on OPTIONAL ASSIGNMENT to minors
* bats or throws left
# bats both
* Zac Rosscup
* Tsuyoshi Wada
* Travis Wood
* Wesley Wright
* John Baker
* Anthony Rizzo
* Luis Valbuena
* Logan Watkins
# Arismendy Alcantara
* Chris Coghlan
15-DAY DL: 4
* Felix Doubront, P
Edwin Jackson, P
Justin Ruggiano, OF
* Ryan Sweeney, OF
60-DAY DL: 1
James McDonald, P
Dallas Beeler, P
Junior Lake, OF
Mile Olt, INF
Blake Parker, P
* Chris Rusin, P
Brian Schlitter, P
Dan Straily, P
Christian Villanueva, INF
Josh Vitters, OF
Arodys Vizcaino, P
Updated through 8/28/14 - 29 games left for Cubs.
For failing to sign top overall pick Brady Aiken, the Houston Astros will get the 2nd pick in next year's draft on top of their regular pick.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.
It looks like Joe Girardi is going to be the Marlins guy. Damn, he would of been perfect for the Cubs if we didn't have the resident village idiot still on the job.
I also would of liked having Zimmer as a bench coach. That would have been nice as a last go around for Zim, he was always one of my fav Cubs managers.
I agree whole-heartedly with both.
And here's hoping that they don't give Ron Washington the job in Oakland this year, so that he can take a position (preferably manager, but if not, minor league King of Fielding Instruction) with the Cubs.
I was also reading the rumors section of Foxsports.com. Stuff about Sheff, stuff about Manny.
How about the all dysfunctional OF of Manny, Milton Bradley and Sheff? Just enough ego, and personality disorders to drown out Baker. That might be a good thing.
the best part of that AP write-up:
"When she came to, the first thing she said was: "Are you Nomar?"
how can the Cubs not resign him? Furcal? pffffffft. he's a jerk, he'll want 5 years and he can't get on base. Nomar is a saint who'll take another one or two year deal and he can mash. easy decision.
I loved the "Are you Nomar?" line as well. Of all the things that would be racing through my mind when waking up from a near-death experience...
I'm a Milton Bradley apologist, and actually a fan of Manny and Sheff as well. I would love having all three for their offense and for the storylines that would ensue. There would never be an off-day at TCR...
Zim as manager, now?? The guy is senile. He rushed onto the field and attacked a player. The man should not be allowed in baseball again and Torre, Cashman and Steinbrenner knew it and that is why they forced him to retire.
Zimmer as new manager for Cubs defines the phrase...grass is always greener.
I keep reading how the Cubs MUST SIGN Furcal (or die??). But what are the chances the Braves won't re-sign Furcal?
Furcal said he wants to stay with the Braves. Cox says that he's their number one free agent priority. Schuerholz is working on a deal right now and Chipper Jones says he's willing to defer part of his $17 mil salary in order to keep him in Atlanta.
Didn't he say Zim as bench coach?
It doesn't matter what is actually said if you have your own agenda.
i still dont get why people think a guy with no mangerial experience who hasnt filled out a single lineup card or been in charge of a team is somehow better than a guy who's been there.
yeah, guys gotta get their feet wet somewhere, but its rarely with a high-payroll team.
is it lou pinella's fault TB didnt win 90 games or was it the players?
afl week 1 review...check that brandon wood line...8 homers already...4 in 1 game (vs. 4 different pitchers).
My bad, but just change the words manager to bench coach and everything still applies.
And BillT, speaking of agendas, have you ever read MIKEC's posts they are consistantly against Baker, that's not an agenda?? Actually. everyone has an agenda here and it is to express what they think is best for the Cubs. And yours might be to just call out only certain people you don't agree with and take jabs at them...thanks!!
But did anyone mention Zim as manager except for you? That is the point.
I still dont get why people think a guy with no mangerial experience who hasnt filled out a single lineup card or been in charge of a team is somehow better than a guy who's been there.
Maybe because the present manager can't fill out a lineup card? We have talked for years on this site how Girardi would be a pretty good manager. Now he will get his shot. Sadly with another franchise.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to run a team. Just some common sense. Common sense tells you Perez/Patterson or a Perez/Macias one two punch is bad. I think Girardi in that respect could manage circles around Baker. Not asking for much, just a little common sense from the guy who fills out the lineup card. Is that so hard to ask these days?
Besides Crunch you arguement is exactly what Baker thinks. Rookies have no major league experience, and have never hit in the majors how can they possibly be better than the 10 year veteran who has "been there."
Hell, we fill out the lineup cards here every day and do a better job than Baker, and yes I'm being serious.
But in the end I'd prefer a manager with some big league experience, a proven record of winning (looking good for Baker) and a shared philosophy with the GM (not so good for Baker). I really don't get the sense that Hendry and Baker see eye to eye at all on how players should be used. But damnit, Hendry is going to stick by him. At some point, I think Hendry crumbles and gives Bakers the types of players he wants, or we'll see more of the crap we saw this year with rookies and closers and etc, etc., which is not good.
Nice article on prospect du'jour Felix Pie, promising quote:
[Regarding being in Chicago soon] "That's fine and that's good, but he's not interested in what people say," Garcia said, translating for Pie. "He wants to prove he can play and wants to work hard to continue on the path he's on."
What does he need to work on? More plate discipline, improving his baserunning and using the bunt more in a game, Pie said.
"It sounds like he has a pretty good plan," Garcia said after hearing Pie's list.
"It's OK," Pie said. "You won't have to wait long for me. I'm on my way."
Confidence and humility, well C-Pat had one of the two.
Someone who's actually seen PIe play a bit, let me know if this is true. Rumors and scouting reports say he's a defensive whiz, and a buddy of mine (ChiSox fan) saw him in Spring Training last year in a game. In warmups he noticed a kid who was just gunning it to all bases, accurate and as he claimed, the "strongest arm he's ever seen." He then asked around and found out it was Felix Pie. Anyone else concur with that assessment? Not only can he go get 'em, he can gun 'em down with the best of them?
Curious to hear from anyone who has seen him in person...
I'd take any random person on the planet over Baker.
At least with that, you have such a thing as a learning curve.
Hey Manny Trillo, you're the best man! Here's the invite:
mike...once again you decide to put words in my mouth for no other reason than to push your own point. get over it. get over yourself and for christ's sake if you wanna make crap up stick to making up your own stuff that applies to you.
now, you say it just takes common sense...well tell that to dave miley. he knew how to fill out a lineup card...there's might be more to managing a team than that it seems cuz he had austin kearns and jiminez walking all over him while adam dunn turned him into a joke. casey/griffey could care less about the lockerroom and the whole time miley's filling out lineup cards. hmmm...
lockerrom was a joke or his pitching? tough call....
Doesn't sound like Dusty's clubhouse has been all peaches and creams the last 2 years either.
my whole arguement was about propping up a guy with NO experience and just thinking he's gonna do well for no reason but cuz...well...cuz he's joe girardi.
its like celebrating the removal of rothschild without first finding out the replacement.
no matter how much you hate dusty (or not) girardi has absolutely no track record to compare to.
for all any of us know he could have the person-to-person skills and level of respect of dave miley...a guy who took his orders from upstairs and had NO idea how to run different personalities within his clubhouse.
Don't the Cubs have to make some 40-man roster decisions by today? I need some freakin' Cubs news of interest.....
"But did anyone mention Zim as manager except for you?"
No, and I said my bad, but my thoughts are exactly the same for Zimmer as a bench coach.
Who was Torre's bench coach this year when Tony Womack was put at the top of the lineup for his 177 AB's?? You'd think maybe he mention that the .274 OBP for Womack might not be the best idea for #1 or #2 spots, huh?
ROB G: Yes. Hendry has to decide no later than today whether to add Brandon Sing to the 40-man roster, because if he is not added to the 40-man roster, he will be a six-year minor league free-agent and could sign with any team.
The Phillies just added a pitcher named Yoel Hernandez to their 40-man roster today, but time is running out. (Hernandez would have been a six-year minor league free-agent tomorrow, also).
It's possible the Cubs will make a roster move (add Sing to the 40, and subtract McClain, Rohlicek, Lewis, and possibly Theriot) today, but that it won't be announced until tomorrow.
Of course, Hendry could also have a deal in place with Sing and his agent to sign Sing to a AAA contract for 2006 with a guaranteed invitation to Spring Training as a non-roster player, with the added positive (from Sing's POV) that even if he signs a AAA contract with the Cubs, he could still get selected by another MLB club in the Rule 5 Draft and get to the big leagues that way. Hendry might also guarantee Sing that if he is not assigned to Iowa in 2006, he will be free to leave the organization and sign with another team.
That pre-supposes punching a ticket to the AFL would have been sufficient inducement to get Sing to agree to such an arrangement. Personally, I think Hendry is taking an unnecessary risk if he does not add Sing to the 40-man roster. Even if Hendry does not believe Sing would have a future with a Dusty Baker-managed Cubs, Sing still could have value in a trade to a Moneyball team who would value his extraordinary patience at the plate.
Or, Hendry might do something big hearted and let Sing leave as a free-agent so he can be free to sign with a team where he will get a chance to play right away. But then why was Sing sent to the AFL, if the Cubs did not intend to keep him in the organization? Teams don't send guys to the AFL just to release them a week later. Going to the AFL means your organization has at least a modicum of hope for you in the future.
You'd think maybe he mention that the .274 OBP for Womack might not be the best idea for #1 or #2 spots, huh?
So when Joe "4 world series rings" Torre puts a guy with an OBP under .300 in the 1st or 2nd spot it's a problem, but when Dusty Baker does its 1-not a problem, and 2-Hendry's fault?
AFL game in progress
Mesa 1 6th
Eric Patterson 0 for 2, 1 walk, 1K
Matt Murton 1 for 3, 1 double, 1K
Murton has a 6 pitch AB (double), 7 pitch fly out and a 6 pitch K.
E-Pat had an 8 pitch ab (walk), a 4 pitch K and a 1 pitch groundout.
Angel Guzman 3.2 IP, 6 hits, 4ER, 2 BB, 4K's.
David Aardsma now pitching but it's a ugly 6th with a lead off HR, double, single, fielders choice, single...bases loaded single 2 more runs...double 2 more runs...5 runs so far.
"So when Joe "4 world series rings" Torre puts a guy with an OBP under .300 in the 1st or 2nd spot it's a problem, but when Dusty Baker does its 1-not a problem, and 2-Hendry's fault?"
I did not say anything about it being a problem or not a problem or who's fault it is concerning the Cubs. My point is that MIKEC is complaing that Baker does that, but Torre (along with his bench coach Girardi, to whom he would like to see manage the CHC) does it for the NYY too.
If it is such a blatant problem, I would hope the bench coach would point it out to the manager and try and get him to correct it, but maybe Girardi doesn't have a problem with it. Which then MIKEC and others would have the same problem with Girardi.
Lineup construction doesn't matter, Manny, Right? So what's your point?
I wrote that before seeing your response, ignore.
I'm sure Girardi will make a fine manager, it seems most folks in the know have been touting him for awhile. And who says Girardi didn't mention it? Maybe Torre ignored it. As you've spouted many times, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes.
Firstly, lineup constructuion does matter but only very slightly over the course of a season from a few studies that I have read.
But my point, ROB G., is that some people want Joe Girardi as manager of Cubs. The NYY did the same thing that the CHC did with having a low OBP guy at the top of the lineup for periods throughout the season. Maybe Girardi doesn't have a problem with it, just like Torre or Baker, and thus would do the same here in Chicago and get the same complaints from some Cubs fans that Baker does. So maybe he is not the manager some should be hoping to replace Baker as he might do some of the same things people complain that Baker does. Just pointing it out...
Ok ROB G. so ignore my response (post #30).
"And who says Girardi didn't mention it? Maybe Torre ignored it. As you've spouted many times, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes."
Spouted..ha ha. Anyways, we don't know, but then we can't also assume he did mention it. Like i said just pointing it out...
I would be completely shocked if Sing doesn't get added to the 40-man. As I said in the roundtable, he won't find a bench spot on the team and certainly not a starting job, but god forbid that Lee goes down next year, HE SHOULD ABSOLUTELY IMMEDIATELY be the starting first basemen. No f*** around with Macias or Barrett or Walker or whatever vet scrub has been keeping the bench warm.
Player goes down, go to promising lil' Cub.[insert appropriate team]. It's what almost every other franchise does. If there's a case where you have absolutely NO ONE in the minors at that position ,then it's understandable, but the Cubs do have someone at almost every position but catcher, that holds some sort of promise. And to use Dusty's words against him, did he not say that it's tough to evaluate guys in Sept because teams don't have a book on these players, so they often look artificially better? So why can't we use that theory for us in May? Lee goes on 15 day DL, bring up Sing, no one knows how to get him out for a few weeks, BOOM, lightning in a bottle. Of course Baker will tell you rookies have to come along slowly, thus once again contradicting himself.
aardvark got lit the hell up...
1ip 7h 6er 0bb 1k
Brenley will be working with Brennaman and Lyons during the NLCS.
Here's my 2 cents on Baker...Again. I think he sucks. He is terrible in-game and even worse with fundamental. I am sick of Crunch and Manny defending every move Dusty makes. Admit it guys Dusty makes awful decisions. I know you guys probably like the guy as much as I don't, but your arguments become stronger when you're willing to admit at times he is wrong. And right now I'm going to go on the record and say that I feel Dusty did a MUCH BETTER job of managing this years team versus last. Last year the team was loaded injuries or not. We had Moises in left, a better cpat in center, more Aram, Nomar at the end, and the list goes on and on. Dusty is to blame in my mind for all the fundamental problems, attitude issues, the bitching and whining.
HOWEVER if you look at this season in comparison, HENDRY put a worse team on the field from April on. Even if Nomar doesn't go down HENDRY did not fix 1. the pen, 2. the leadoff spot, 3 kept Macias, 4. Had no left fielder. I think under the circumstances yeah we could have been better (2 8 game losing streaks) but we could have been much worse. Dusty did a decent job at keeping the team semi-competitive through mid September.
Finally, I am glad that Dusty is the team's manager for next year and we won't be going through a distracting winter (sammy sosa anyone?) like we did next year. Dusty and Hendry deserve one more shot and injuries or not, if the team fails next year they should both be sent packing.
Now let's move on from yes Dusty or no Dusty to it's Dusty for sure, lets have a great winter of signings and GO CUBS FOR WORLD SERIES IN 06!
Sorry for the double post....Damn
Brenley will be working with Brennaman and Lyons during the NLCS.
Good to know, I'll make sure to hit the mute button and listen to the audio off the XM feed.
ROB G: If Hendry does not put Brandon Sing on the 40-man roster, then he WILL (or has already) sign him to a 2006 AAA Iowa contract with an invitation to Spring Training as a non-roster player.
There is no way the Cubs would have sent Sing to the AFL if there was any chance he was going to be a six-year minor league free-agent ten days into the AFL season and leave the organization. So either Hendry intended to add Sing to the 40-man roster by close of business today (and it appears that he did not), or he had a deal in place to keep Sing in the organization.
So the question is why would Sing not want to take advantage of his one opportunity in the next 12 months to be a free-agent? I believe the answer would be that the Cubs offer of a trip to the AFL (where Sing can display his wares in a high-profile scouting environment against competition somewhat better than AA), combined with a AAA contract that includes a guaranteed invitation to 2006 Spring Training as a non-roster player, combined witn the possibility of being selected in the Rule 5 Drsaft if he has an impressive AFL (a large percentage of Rule 5 picks are pitchers and players who had a chance to showcase themselves in the AFL), combined with at least a possibility that Hendry might still change his mind and add him to the 40-man roster prior to November 19th (when minor league rosters are frozen in preparation for the Rule 5 Draft in December), is better than what he and his agent believe they can get elsewhere at this time. Just because Sing signs a AAA contract on or about October 12th does not mean the Cubs can't still add him to their 40-man roster prior to November 19th.
And maybe Brandon Sing just likes playing in the Cubs organization,. He's from Joliet. He's a Chicago area guy. He wouldn't be the first player to re-sign with the Cubs when he could have maybe gotten a better deal elsewhere.
BOTTOM LINE: If Sing did or will sign a 2006 AAA Iowa contract in lieu of exercising his opption to be a six-year minor league free-agent, it had to be in part because he knows, and his agent knows, that he is unlikely to get a "major league contract" from anybody right now. A AAA contract with a ticket to the AFL and an invite to Spring Training would be a superior deal to whatever any other club could offer IF (in fact) there is no major league deal on his immediate horizon.
Remember, it took Sing over six seasons to "clear" AA. That makes him a "suspect," no matter what kind of year he may have had in 2005 at West Tenn. But he had a good enough year that Hendry probably wants to keep him in the organization. Hendry just doesn't want to allocate a spot on the 40-man roster to Sing at this time.
I know it's a little too early to discuss this, but Hendry is not going to be add (protect) all of the prospects he might like to add to the 40-man roster.
It's like this:
Right now, the Cubs have 42 players on their 40-man roster (Fox and Wood will remain on the 60-day DL probably until the end of the World Series when the free-agent filing period begins).
Fox, Rusch, Nomar, Neifi, Grieve, and probably Burnitz will file for free-agency in November. That would get the roster down to 36.
Then McClain, Rohlicek, and Lewis, and probably Theriot will probably be dropped from the 40-man roster. That gets it down to 32. Koronka might get released, too, but that seems somewhat unlikely at this point.
Then Hendry will want to leave about four spots open on the 40-man roster (he did last year, so I figure he will do it the same way again this year) for "wiggle room" for free-agents (RF for sure, possibly a starting pitcher, possibly a SS, and also a bench player and/or a veteran relief pitcher) and any players who might be added in trades.
So that means that barring a 4-for-2 or 6-for-3 deal (which could happen), Hendry will have maybe four, or POSSIBLY five spots (if Koronka gets released after the close of the AFL season oin November 13th), available for prospects who need to be protected from the Rule 5 Draft.
Felix Pie and Ricky Nolasco are "locks" to be added to the 40-man roster. So that leaves two (or MAYBE three) spots available for all of the other candidates (which I will list alphabetically at this time):
1. Bobby Brownlie
2. Brian Dopirak
3. Carlos Marmol
4. Sean Marshall
5. Juan Mateo
6. Casey McGehee
7. Scott Moore
8. Jae-kuk Ryu
9. Andy Shipman
10. Brandon Sing
So likely there will be only two (or possibly three) spots available on the 40-man roster for this group of ten. I'll leave it to the reader to figure out which two or three names on this list will be added to the 40-man roster by November 19th.
"I am sick of Crunch and Manny defending every move Dusty makes"
how many times do i gotta explain how little i care about who's running the club from the dugout?
i feel like i gotta do it monthly cuz someone insists i'm some dusty supporter.
check it out...just cuz you dont care dont mean you're a supporter. i feel this club has a lot more problems that who the lineup jockey is.
im not rehashing this crap again.
yeah, i call out when people flip out on manager crap insted of blaming the players on the field...yeah, i think the people calling for torre's head in NY are just ingorant...yeah, i dont think much of too many managers.
now...if you want my real opinion on what i think of dusty or ANY manager, go dig up some of my old posts on what i think of managers and how some people overblow their importance and impact on the game.
ya know...THIS is why i dont like people putting words in my mouth, btw.
cuz it leads to crap like this.
go find my "i love dusty" post...go find my "managers mean a lot!" post...and good luck.
You know this is really starting to annoy me - if only because I in the rare position of being on Manny's side in this infamous argument.
The reason is the assumption that Manny was proven wrong in the argument - he wasn't. Virtually nobody pointed out any evidence saying it did matter, only a bunch of snarky comments and lineups like "Well then lets lead off my dead grandmother if it doesn't matter." None of which actually argues the point of whether or not it matters very much where Corey Patterson bats to the teams won-loss record and runs scored. It's an "I'm right cause I say so" which only works when the other posters are nine. I'll happily stand by my point at the time, which is that while maybe a game or two was cost by lineup construction (and Derek Lee's shot at the TC ) the far far larger problem was Patterson/Perez/Macias in the lineup in the first place.
Furthermore even if Manny had been proven wrong, it doesn't make him wrong for life. Get off it.
Mind you I think Dusty is a dipshit (Macias started a game in right field...I'll get over this someday), I disagree with Manny most of the time, and I agree with crunch about Joe Girardi, so this isn't about Dusty being great.
let me just point out that I just mentioned it cause it appeared Manny was trying to use lineup construction as a reason why Girardi might not be a good manager and I thought that was a bit silly considering the ferocity we got into before where he was clearly on the other side. Manny was making a completely other point and all is well, now.
im thinking i agree with the idea that managers do not win championships. i do think however they can certainly hurt you (our batting order woes from this year, carrying the corey torch too long).
when mike sciocia put on the squeeze with finley with the bases loaded and 1 out in a 2 run game, thats not brilliance, nor is it common sense either necessarily, but it is something that many managers may not have done depending on their mentality, their school of thought.
i sat with a friend and thought "you think he bunts here?" my friend said "naw", bringing up some random stat about finley just as the bunt was laid down.
particular things like that will differ from guy to guy, but its the stuff like leaving such weak hitting in front of a guy having an MVP year for so long, or wasting precious at-bats on a guy who is clearly a bust aside from having alienated all of cubdom, that stuff makes you wanna break shit.
despite this, i have not been able to bring myself to toss baker to the lions, or at least say it out loud. after wriggleman and leyland and baylor...does anybody think any of these guys would have gotten us to October in '03?
trick question guys.
already having established that while a manager can not necessarily help you succeed, assuming that any lifer in the bigs knows how or at least has a pretty good idea of how to write a lineup card depending on the opponent and your given bats, or when to pull the starter for which reliever, etc. then all they can do is botch these aforementioned things, as dusty has done.
...i dunno, liked him in 03, cuz well, we won the division and all, and alex gonzales blowing the game wasnt dusty's fault. i didnt really blame the meltdown in 04 on him either, but in hindsight i bet we could find all kinds of shit he's directly responsible for (like not taking measures against the burnouts that took place right before our eyes, and hawkins delivery being all fucked up). now this year, and our inability to break out of L streaks against teams we should be beating handily, blah blah blah has really put a damper on the glow from '03.
i just cant bring myself to hate on him though for some reason dammit all to hell.
like it or not though were stuck with him for at least 1 more season, so bitching about it does no good.
--"Furcal said he wants to stay with the Braves. Cox says that he's their number one free agent priority. Schuerholz is working on a deal right now and Chipper Jones says he's willing to defer part of his $17 mil salary in order to keep him in Atlanta."
is this all true? a buddy of mine pointed out the fact that though he hears alot of talk over us NEEDING to have furcal, that he hasnt read much about the guy anywhere on official cubs news sites, and he may have a good point there.
is this all hot air?
yeah, i understand a manager can impact a game...myself, i tend to care a lot more about the people on the field over the guy sending them signals. espeically when a manager has the choice between crap player 1 and crap player 2.
some people like to pick apart moves a manager makes. some people like to do it to the extreme that just having one manager over another means instant doom no matter who's on the field.
i'm not gonna group everyone in that extreme doom category for saying they don't like dusty.
by the same respect, just cuz i could care less if dusty's at the helm or not doesn't make me a die-hard dusty rah-rah supporter.
Wow, Angels just got hosed.
"your arguments become stronger when you're willing to admit at times he is wrong."
I have said on many occassions that Dusty made moves that I thought were mistakes. But all managers do.... Saying I haven't is 100% incorrect.
"Wow, Angels just got hosed."
How can an ump call a guy out and they later say he was safe? Pual tossed teh ball to the pitchers mound BECAUSE the ump called him out. If he never called him out Paul would of thrown the ball to 1st. This is like in the NFL were a team can't get a fumble if the whistle was blown. The play is dead and over...
I am sure the LAA will protest this game and it will be very interesting story over the next 2 days. I know protested RARELY work, but this one might have a case.
Except the ball hit the dirt. And the umpire has the ability to change his mind. Which he did. :)
Man the SUX are back in the bribe buisness. Well atleast this time there the ones paying them. Welcome to instant replay in MLB at least in the playoffs due to those dumb a** umpires.
It's actually really funny. I can't defend the Sox on this "play", but the Chicago news crew is hilariously defending the Sox on this. They're calling A.J. a hero and saying the instant replay proves them right... nutty.
If you watch the highlights of the entire game, the umpire makes the same two motions on each strikeout. What a bunch of B.S.
and how can the umps say the replay is "inconclusive at best"? Maybe they should get a big screen, HD, & Tivo to see it again.
"If you watch the highlights of the entire game, the umpire makes the same two motions on each strikeout."
I was just getting ready to post the EXACT same thing. Even during the highlights on ESPN, they showed a few swinging strikouts and he used the EXACT SAME motion as he did with the ball in the dirt.
such a shame.....
On what planet did that ball hit the dirt? Angels got hosed!!!! And don't you think the catcher would know if it hit the dirt or short-hopped? Maybe some haven't played baseball in awhile but you can certainly tell by the way ball hits the mitt if you caught it cleanly.
The fact the ump CLEARLY made a strikeout gesture is the biggest offense. I looked around the rulebook:
Do not call the plays too quickly, or turn away too fast when a fielder is throwing to complete a double play. Watch out for dropped balls after you have called a man out. Do not come running with your arm up or down, denoting "out" or "safe." Wait until the play is completed before making any arm motion. Each umpire team should work out a simple set of signals, so the proper umpire can always right a manifestly wrong decision when convinced he has made an error. If sure you got the play correctly, do not be stampeded by players' appeals to "ask the other man." If not sure, ask one of your associates. Do not carry this to extremes, be alert and get your own plays. But remember! The first requisite is to get decisions correctly. If in doubt don't hesitate to consult your associate. Umpire dignity is important but never as important as "being right." A most important rule for umpires is always "BE IN POSITION TO SEE EVERY PLAY." Even though your decision may be 100% right, players still question it if they feel you were not in a spot to see the play clearly and definitely. Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.
I couldn't find anything about the proper technique for an ump to call that play, maybe there are some amateur umps out there that know.
Has a team ever won a playoff game W/O scoring an earned run? SUX fans from this instant need to stop their bitching about how the world is aganist them. Because they just got the biggest gift call ever. I have not been this mad over a ump/ref since that BS blocking call on Pippen in the east semies vs. NYK in 94.
at least don denkinger took responsibility for his screwup. maybe after the umps go home and watch the replays the crew of laughing dudes will take a little responsibility. their after-game press conference kinda stunk.
it happens...the world still turns.
mike...once again you decide to put words in my mouth for no other reason than to push your own point. get over it. get over yourself and for christ's sake if you wanna make crap up stick to making up your own stuff that applies to you.
Go back and look at it. I simply responded to what you said. I didn't call you any names or put words in your mouth. It is obvious you can't handle any critique of your arguement and will throw a tantrum if a person replies back and doesn't agree.
I am not gonna shut up or stop responding to what you write everytime you throw a fit. If you don't like people responding to what you write Crunch, there are many other Cubs sites you can enjoy and bully around.
In the meantime you can fuck off.
"Besides Crunch you arguement is exactly what Baker thinks. Rookies have no major league experience, and have never hit in the majors how can they possibly be better than the 10 year veteran who has "been there."
is that clear now?
if you need to qualify your rants, keep me out of them or keep on topic/task if you want to involve me. i dont need my words twisted or words put in my mouth in order for you to advance a point.
To get to Manny's point about LAAA protesting the game from what I heard on Sporting News Radio (score from 12am-6am) they cant protest the drop 3rd strike, but can protest the fact AJ was out of the Baseline.
mike...before you tell me to have sex with myself again or whatever you think i should do next with my life...
here's my issue with you.
you INSIST that i am doing things based on assumptions you draw and present them as fact to the board.
you turn my opinions into facts.
you take my facts and assume i'm not open to arguement about them...which im not in the case of facts, unless you got another set of facts for me to mull over that isnt just calling me stupid or similar, im not open to arguement.
you tend to respond to these situations by eventually unleashing a slew of venon-filled crap at me.
i still have not forgotten any of the dubois crap. i give up some facts and you treat me like im pissing in your cornflakes and making you eat them. its not like that. just because you don't want them to be true, that doesn't make them false.
i don't need someone taking things i say and turning them into statements they're not...something you've done a lot with my statements. yeah, some of it is minor and not worth mentioning and its passed. some of it just don't matter.
what i don't need is someone being my personal translator being the self-appointed spokesperson for this entire board telling me that you know what i'm up to and what i'm trying to say.
btw...no, im not trying to shut you up.
im just telling you i dont need this crap anymore and im tired of sitting around letting all these things just kinda pass by.
you can keep on doing what you do and respond to me and all that...i could just use a little less of your interpretations of what im saying being presented as facts when theyre just opinions.
and if you got a problem with my facts...bring a little substance insted of calling me names.
or you could just ingore all this and do what you want...wee.
Joe Giradi is the new Devil Rays manager.
who broke that one? marlins were supposedly frontrunners. he had a 2nd interview with them today.
This is getting down right petty and sad. You made a comment, I responded back. I didn't call you names, I didn't fly off the handle in a hissy fit, I had a normal conversation. I compared what you said with what Baker does.
Unless this is code, and not what you really said, your pretty much argueing how can Girardi be better than Baker who has the experience. My point back is, who says just because a manager has "been there" means he is a better choice than the guy who has never managed? Experience on the job doesn't automatically make you a better choice than a person who hasn't.
I am sorry if your arguement sounds alot like the way Baker seems to act and manage. But it is what it is. I can argue that point if I want to. I can argue that point without getting called every name in the book because you don't like it.
I made a fair comparision that any other poster on this site would do, has done, or will do in the future. I have it happen to me alot, never once have I flown off the handle like you have about it. I have flown off the handle for various other reasons, but this has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever been accused of on a message board.
Thanks for wasting my time and other peoples time over this petty crap.
Actually, Joe Giradi isn't the new manager of the Devil Rays. Your eyes decieve you.
"I am sorry if your arguement sounds alot like the way Baker seems to act and manage. But it is what it is."
this is exactly what im talking about, btw.
and about the real subject at hand...
if you think "Rookies have no major league experience, and have never hit in the majors how can they possibly be better than the 10 year veteran who has "been there." is what i was trying to pass along by my original statement above you really need to quit trying to figure out what im trying to say totally.
that is one hell of a leap to make out of what i said for so many reasons. girardi doesnt have a day of managerial experience. how you gonna compare a guy with the track record of any manager with a guy who doesnt have a track record at all?
you're drawing a comparison with hitters who DO have track records and reports of their pros/cons to a guy you just like on faith alone? the ongoing part where hitters and baker hating everying related to a rookie and me sharing his philosophy is vaguely tied to the issue to begin with.
and about your self-appointed spokesman for the board and how much time of everyone else i'm wasting...
i'm just trying to settle something that you've been pushing for a long long time and i've mostly ignored, been silent about, or not called you out directly on.
i'm kinda sick of your crass comments and rearranging of things to try to build your cases in arguements.
The Giradi thing is from Sporting News Radio last night. They cited a few reports. Probably Rosenthal making things up again because I do not see anything in today's paper about it.
RE Angels hosed: not disputing it, but am I the only one who thought it was an even worse call (in terms of ump getting the call right) for Crede to be called out at 2nd base in the seventh? I mean, Fox showed that play a half million times and I cannot figure out how he is out there. I'm not a Sox fan, but it drove me crazy that none of Fox's best would even mention it. If they didn't mention it because I'm wrong, that's fine.
I've umpired for a while, though I can't say how accurate my experience relates to this play.
It's the plate ump's job to make that call. I usually do it by sound (ball hitting dirt, making too many noises before getting to the catcher, etc.), because there's almost no other way to get it right from behind the catcher. Of course, 99% of the time, I'm working with a 2-man ump crew, not a 6-man, or even a 4-man.
The signal he made, if he said nothing, is an out signal. No matter what Eddings is claiming, if you point at the batter, then bend the elbow and close the fist, that's "strike three, batter out". This is different from noting a swinging strike, which can use the same motion, because in that case, you clearly say "swing" or "on the swing" or something similar. For clarity, the ump is supposed to say "out" on a swinging third strike using that motion, but often, especially late in games, I don't bother on obvious ones. I'd like to think, though, that a professional, in a playoff game, could be less lazy than me in a meaningless JV high school game. You bet your ass I make every call for a varsity postseason game, even the obvious ones like "swings and misses at strike three".
In short, Eddings screwed up. Either he made the wrong signal, because he missed the play, or he was being lazy. The other umps, particularly the crew chief, were asleep at the wheel for letting it happen. Scoscia absolutely should be livid. It's not easy to make Joe West look like a good and competent umpire, but Eddings sure made a run for it yesterday.
"and he can mash"
Nomar is an injury waiting to happen. Let's sign guys who play every day. Otherwise we will see Neifi starting again shortly.
"strongest arm he's ever seen."
That isn't close to true. He's got what will project out (when he hits age 23-24) a strong CFs arm. It isn't 100% accurate - and it isn't Dawson/Vlad good. But he isn't a RF.
Strongest arm ever? NOPE - Strongest arm from an every day Cubs CF in my lifetime? I'd say so.
Great teams usually have an effective leadoff hitter. I'd be surprised to see the Braves let Furcal go without making their best effort. That may not be enough - but I'd be surprised if they don't go balls-to-the-walls to make it happen. Will Hendry go out and pay top dollar and outbid them? Maybe - maybe not. It isn't traditionally his style to be paying top dollar for a FA - he'd rather try and steal on cheap. (Not that there is anything wrong with that)
My guess - the Braves give him 5/45 and we end up with Nomar again. Another year of Russian Roulette at SS.
*I still dont get why people think a guy with no mangerial experience who hasnt filled out a single lineup card or been in charge of a team is somehow better than a guy who's been there.*
You mean like Ozzie Guillen, 2004-present?
I had an argument with some schumck a while back who said the players wouldn't respect Girardi because he's young and they can remember playing with him, which makes absolutely no sense, but...
Guillen is the same age as Girardi.
Guillen never managed as much as a minor league team--Girardi has been a bench coach for a perennial contender.
Guillen played with Frank Thomas, one of his current players. I doubt that any of the current Marlins, Cubs, or Devil Rays played with Girardi.
Food for thought...
I don't know that Girardi would be bad or good. I do know that I am displeased with Baker in nearly every aspect of being a manager, including "getting guys to come here" (Walker and ?) and "getting the most from his veterans". I do know that Girardi is the type of guy who is likely to be a good manager. I do know he has been tought the game right. I do believe he'd be good.
Nothing is for sure - except that there is nothing about Baker as a manager where I can say he has done an exceptional job. He's not a calming influence. He's not a motivator. He's not a teacher. He's doesn't discipline. I just haven't yet been impressed by a single thing about Mr. Baker.
What about going out there and getting Pinella, a proven veteran manager?
I doubt that any of the current Marlins, Cubs, or Devil Rays played with Girardi.
Off the top of my head, Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Maddux, and Patterson have all been on teams with Girardi. I'm not sure about the Marlins or D-Rays.
I don't think this has anything to do with whether or not Girardi would be a good manager, I just wanted to point it out.
Thanks for the info in post #71 Brian!!!
On Eddings' blown call, let's not forget that there was another blown call earlier in the game when Crede was supposedly doubled off at second. The replays show he was clearly safe. Both were bad bad calls but they even out to an extent. Horrible umpiring the whole game.
No...Crede was definitely out. I saw a clear replay showing that the throw beat the runner. The best replay was one coming from a camera somewhere around homeplate, or at least at a similar angle.
The throw definitely beat the runner.
As a former High School umpire (its a great way to make extra cash in college), I'll agree 100% with Brian's comments in #71.
I don't blame the ump for not calling AJ out on the pitch, and Josh Paul should have made the tag to be certain, but his mechanics clearly showed an out call. His excuse that he always makes separate swinging and strike calls doesn't make sense. The swing call is a strike call, you don't need to make a second call unless you're calling the batter out.
Unfortuantly, this is not an appealable offense. The only cases that can be appealed are cases where the rule book is being mis-interperated, and this doesn't fall under that.
Crede was absolutely out at second. He was out by about an inch and a half, but he was out. The ball was clearly in the glove before his hand reached second base on the slide.
And there is no way you can expect Josh Paul to make the tag when the home plate umpire signals the batter out. Why the hell would he do that when the out is already called?
"im just telling you i dont need this crap anymore and im tired of sitting around letting all these things just kinda pass by."
AMEN....if everyone at this board did that to MIKEC, maybe he would be gone like HAWK and SAMCLATT. Then we can have civil discussions without the namecalling/personal attacks.
Josh Paul caught the ball cleanly. The umpitre lew the call. But it wasn't all the obvious on first viewing. Paul caugfht the ball wiyth his glove facing downward, and the ball was very close to being in the dirt. Initially, I thought the ball hit the ground, and it took a replay and "stop action" for it to be clear to me. Umpires don't have that advantage. Th home plate umpire did ask for "help," but none of the other umps saw it clearly, either.
Umpires blow calls fairly often. Whether it be caling a ball a strike or a strike a ball, or calling a base-runner out at a base even though he gets his foot into the bag prior to being tagged but the throw beats him to the bag, or a fielder making a diving catch that's ruled a "trap" when it's actually caught or vice-versa.
It is NOT up to players to do the umpiring. Evetybody who's ever played baseball knows that. Do not ASSUME anything. (because what happens when you assume?). Do not assume that the unpire saw the play the same way you did. Don't take any chances.
Well, Josh Paul DID assume.
The third strike not caught cleanly is like an appeal play. It's up to the batter to run to first. The ummpire does not say "the catcher did not catch the ball cleanly." He just calls "strike three."
If the batter goes back to the dugout or goes to his defensive position, it's over. But Pierzynski waited a beat-and-a-half before running to first (he deaked 'em), and by that time, Paul had already rolled the ball to the mound.
The umpire blew the call, but Josh Paul made a far bigger mistake. He ASSUMED that because he knew he caught the ball, that the umpire saw it the same way. Even though he firmly believed he had caught the third strike cleanly, Josh Paul should have just tagged Pierzynski anyway,
Mike Scioscia should be blaming Josh Paul for olsing that game, not the home plate uimpire.
"What about going out there and getting Pinella, a proven veteran manager?"
For the Cubs?? Baker and the ENTIRE coaching staff has been resigned or under contract for 2006. Get over teh idea of looking for another manager. It is Dusty Baker for 2006. Now start looking at ways Hendry can improve the team to get enough healthy talent to make the playoffs.
"Unfortuantly, this is not an appealable offense. The only cases that can be appealed are cases where the rule book is being mis-interperated, and this doesn't fall under that."
You may be right and I am not arguing with you. But once he made the out call, the inning is over...that's 3 outs. The play is dead just like a fumble in the NFL when the whistle blows. The LAA stopped playing after teh ump called him out. It is like calling time and then saying "oh, just play". Can't do that.
Anyways, you very well may be right that this is soemthing they can't appeal, but it should be looked at...
FWIW, this is out of the rulebook:
"When a batter becomes a runner on third strike not caught, and starts for his bench or position, he may advance to first base at any time before he enters the bench. To put him out, the defense must tag him or first base before he touches first base."
This really doesn't make alot of sense, since a batter going directly to his position after he strikes out theoretically has until he enters the dugout after the next half inning to run to first. But at least it indicates the argument I've heard that Pierzynski abandoned the base paths and thus should be called out has no merit.
Had the umpire just blown the call and said "no catch", I'd assume that Paul would've put the tag on him.
The big error is that the umpire made a call, then reversed it. The thing that shocked me is that even when A.J. got to first, no indication from any umpire came until about 10 seconds later. Edding himself was probably confused and allowed his decision to sway. Even the first base umpire looked shocked for a moment.
Re #87, The umps did actually address that point at the end of their news conference last night, and as a former ump I'm glad they did.
One of the biggest myths in baseball (particulalry at the youth level, where catchers miss the ball alot, and young umps don't know any better) is that a batter has a "time limit" or "gives up" if he doesn't start running to first right away. The rule actually is unless the batter walks into the dugout, he's still in the field of play and can attempt to reach base.
Re #86: The problem is the umpire says he didn't call anyone out, and in his judgement he only made a strike call and the ball hit the dirt. The only thing that could be appealed to the league office is that the ump mis-applyed the rule about a dropped 3rd strike, which no one is arguing.
Now, the clench-fist call, which the ump said was his "stike call mechanic" could have been overturned and ruled an "out signal" on the field by the crew chief. However, once the umpire crew on the field made the call, there is no further recorse.
I agree w/Bleeding Blue and AZ Phil that Paul should have made the tag regardless. Any catcher should know that if your glove even comes close to the ground on strike 3, tag the batter.
And if Scioscia want to blame someone, he can look in the mirror. Putting in your 3rd string catcher in the middle of a tie game is not a smart move.
Crede looked out at 2nd to me. And Rowand also looked out at the plate, Cora got a reprieve when the Sox won. Heckuva performance by Buehrle.
And if Scioscia want to blame someone, he can look in the mirror. Putting in your 3rd string catcher in the middle of a tie game is not a smart move.
It wasn't a bad move. Paul is solid defensively, and I guarantee you he is the best #3 catcher in baseball! :)
But really...it wasn't that bad of a move. You needed to pinch run for Molina in that situation. From their you had two options - move Benji into the catcher slot and lose the DH, or use Paul. Paul made the most sense, and clearly Scioscia has enough trust in Paul to have him on the roster.
This was not Paul's fault. It was simply a terrible call by the umpire crew.
BigL I see your point about pinch running, so I'll give Scioscia a pass. And it was a bad call. Nevertheless, Paul could have fixed it all by simply tagging the batter.
Is it ironic that Pierzynski thought to run because he'd had a similar play go against him last year when he was catching? He might be the only player in the majors who would have thought to run on that play. Might.
check out baseball musings take on the situation....very interesting!!!
I understand the idea of the catcher should always tag so there is no question--but isn't it the umps job to make a clear call? What's next, the first baseman should tag the runner to make sure they are out at first?
What if you have a runner on third with less than 2 outs, and the batter Ks? The ball is close to touching the dirt. Should the catcher risk an errant throw just to be sure? Where does it stop?
Paul said that he did not ever hear the word OUT come from the ump... He isn't looking at his hands - he is listening to his voice. The hand signals are more for the crowd, as the catcher and the hitter are listening for audible commands.
Either way - They then gave up a SB and a 0-2, two out, double off the wall. Scoscia said it best - that play didn't beat us - we didn't play well.
Take the wife to a chick flick tonite and I miss the second coming
Dale Sveum: "Shit. Shit shit shit. SHIT."
The pitcher's immediate reaction to Soler's 2nd HR is somehow indescribably funny to me ... He didn't know how to react and just kinda puffed out his chest and walked toward home plate. Priceless.
Little guy has some pop! First ML HR batting right-handed.
this team is going to be frightening next year
alcantara joins in on the fun with a HR.
Rizzo must be like - um - get me back on the field.
Cubs fans we might be having a fun decade or so of baseball starting to peek around the corner.
Apparently baseball isn't as difficult as some people make it out to be.
Definitely an encouraging AB for Baez - seemed to have dialed it down just a little bit there ... and still ropes a double.
That reminded me of that old cartoon where the ball is screaming as it flies out of the yard. Good god.
looked like a Mcgwire bomb there
that one was destroyed. both homers tonight were no-doubt HR's in any park.
3-3...with a walk, too.
I'm more impressed that he managed to work the count from 0-2 to 2-2 before lining into the gap
©The Cub Reporter 2014. The Cub Reporter is in no way affiliated with the Chicago National League Ballclub.