Wood, Marmol, Howry — The "Nasty Men"?

Above all, there was the bullpen. If you didn't outscore the Reds in the first six innings, forget about winning. Rob Dibble, Norm Charlton and Randy Myers constituted the deadliest combination of 95-mph (or better) fastballs, swaggering attitude and occasional mullets in the game. So much so that the trio earned a nickname derived from a pre-wardrobe malfunction Janet Jackson: the Nasty Boys.

— Jonah Keri, espn.com

When Lou Piniella's Reds swept the heavily favored Oakland Athletics right out of the 1990 World Series, his trio of fireballing young relievers led the charge. After combining for 44 saves and a 2.14 ERA over a total 235.1 relief IP during the regular season, the threesome made an indelible mark in Fall Classic history by throwing 8 2/3 innings and allowing the mighty A's no earned runs on just six hits. Dibble won Game 2; Myers earned a save in the clinching Game 4.

(The Boys were no slouches in the NLCS either. Myers, the series MVP, saved three of the four Cincy victories over the Pirates, Charlton had a win, and the Nasty Boys struck out 20 and allowed just six hits and one earned run in 15 2/3 IP.)

Watching Piniella's current club at work and appreciating how his bullpen, particularly young set-up man Carlos Marmol, has contributed to the team's early season success, I thought it would be interesting to see how the three stalwarts in Piniella's Cub bullpen compare to the Nasty Boys of 18 summers ago.

The Nasty Boys first:

Pitcher Age
Opp. BA
Myers 27 66 86.2 31 2.08 .193
Dibble 26 68 98 11 1.74 .183
Charlton (relief apps. only) 27 40 50.2 2 3.02 .249

Myers, who was acquired from the Mets before the 1990 season and would save 112 games for the Cubs between 1993 and '95, was the Reds closer. Consistent with the rest of baseball at the time, however, "closing" sometimes meant entering a game before the ninth. In fact, most of Myers' 31 saves, 18 to be exact, were earned in appearances of more than one inning.

Dibble was the chief set-up man, though he also saw 17 save opportunities and converted 11. Charlton also shared in the set-up duties until mid-season, when he was moved into the rotation. When the post-season began, however, Charlton rejoined the other Boys in the bullpen.

In all, Reds relievers accounted for 32% of all innings thrown by Cincinnati pitchers in 1990, which was right on par with the rest of the National League. The Nasty Boys accounted for 50% of all the Reds' relief innings.


I've got three top-notch relief pitchers on this ballclub, and that's one of the reasons we've been successful this year.

— Lou Piniella, on 6/8/08 ESPN broadcast


Now, the '08 Cubs trio, with projected Games, Innings Pitched and Saves, based on play so far, shown in parens:

Pitcher Age
G (Proj.) IP (Proj.)
Sv (Proj.)
Opp. BA
Wood 31 33 (84) 32.1 (82) 16 (41) 2.62 .178
Marmol 25 33 (84) 40 (101) 3 (8) 2.25 .134
Howry 34 30 (76) 32 (81) 1 (3) 4.50 .297

(Note: to some degree, the Saves projections assume that the Cubs will continue to play .625 ball the rest of the way, which would be swell, but is unlikely.)

Wood, in the mold of the typical closer in recent years, averages almost exactly one inning per outing. Young Marmol has been brilliant, recording an NL-high 19 holds and embarrassing one professional hitter after another in his role as the set-up ace. And while Howry's numbers pale alongside those of the other pitchers' mentioned in this piece, he has been stellar since the 1st of May, pitching to a 1.93 ERA over 18 2/3 IP, with 19 K's against just 3 BB.

So far in 2008, Cub relievers have accounted for about 37% of the team's total IP (slightly ahead of the NL's overall 36%), and Messrs. Wood, Marmol, and Howry have thrown just under 50% of the Cubs' relief innings.

The innings pitched by the Reds' Nasties and the Cubs' projected IP are remarkably close when one accounts for the fact that Charlton spent only spent about half the season coming out of the bullpen.

Of course, there is at least one obvious but important difference between the '90 Nasty Boys and the '08 Nasty Men: the three Reds pitchers were all in their mid- to late-20s. In addition to the 25-year-old Marmol, Lou is leaning on the 31-year-old, oft-injured Wood and the 34-year-old Howry. While Myers, Dibble, and Charlton only appeared en masse in 8 games in 1990—again, Charlton was moved into the rotation in July—Wood, Marmol, and Howry have already appeared in the same game 8 times. Piniella alluded to some concern about overuse during his in-game interview on ESPN Sunday night and said he is at least trying to avoid using all three pitchers in the same game.

Will Lou be able to keep his three key bullpen arms fresh all season long? That would seem to depend on how well the starting pitchers perform and how tight the NL Central race remains and for how long into September. The '90 Reds, for instance, led the NL West from beginning to end in 1990, but saw their once formidable lead shrink to just 3.5 games over the Dodgers in mid-September, so those high-leverage relief innings still needed to be pitched, longer than Lou Piniella would have wished.

Finally, a cautionary note in all this:

As previously noted, Randy Myers had a long successful career post-1990, including that haul with the Cubs, And Charlton, the set-up man turned starter, pitched to age 38, through the 2001 season. He retired having appeared in 605 games, throwing almost 900 innings (all of them after 1992 as a reliever), and he finished with a 112 ERA+.

But Rob Dibble, the spectactular flamethrower and, as he demonstrated on more than one on-field occasion, the spectacular lunkhead, didn't have a long baseball life. After saving a combined 56 games in 1991 and '92, he got hurt in 1993, lost his velocity and control (42 BB in 41 2/3 IP) and pitched his last Major League game in 1995.

He did have this apt summation of life as one of the Nasty Boys, one which I would like to think also captures the way the Cubs relief trio feels about itself:

That was a very unified bullpen. We knew how good we were, and it was actually fun to torture hitters on other teams. It was a blast. I've never had so much fun. It wasn't just baseball, it was like you were in Little League again.



And more pitching:

In looking at ESPN's aggragate stats now, the Cubs are #1 in pitching. Braves, #2.

But, the Braves road record is the worst in baseball.

Cubs staff leads in ERA, 2nd in BAA, 1st in K's.

Also, leads MLB in aggragate hitting stats. I do not recall a recent Cub team doing this. '89 possibly?

2003? IIRC, 2003 we kicked ass with pitching in overall stats - and team batting we were in the top 5.

OT but Cubnut's fantastic piece on the Roberts's-to-Cubs rumor history was yet again linked by a major blog, this time it's Yahoo's Big League Stew, their official baseball blog. Congratulations, TCR and Cubnut!

Here's the post by the Stew: click here.

Sorry for the gush, but this is an awesome article. I finally registered just to say so.

It is fun to follow this Cubs team, of course, but watching Marmol and Wood when they are on is on another level of fun. There was a recent game when I think Marmol walked a guy and then there was a single and he proceeded to blow the next guys away. And Wood on Sunday was a wow too.

Thanks, Carlos. I was hoping the Bulls/Doug Collins dance could go on a while longer so the graphic could be adapted.

And thanks, WT.

Updated All-Star voting out. Soriano, Fukodome, Soto still in position to start. Lee, DeRosa, Ramirez all second, and Theriot third in what has turned into a dogfight at short stop.


Is it safe to say based on those numbers they must have just counted up a fresh batch of ASG Ballots from Wrigley?

The Astros also have someone in the top 4 of every position, except Catcher, so I'm guessing Houston also was in the latest batch to be counted.

And I'm still writting-in Neifi, damnit.

Cubnut - How about breaking out Arizona Phil's favorite pic of the Nasty Boys he posted with his "Nasty Boys" piece from last year? That pic was priceless/hilarious.

AZ Phil--A request to break into your photo vault!

talk about nasty

... one must hope that Hendry did not see post #9, or any other place where this news is sprinkled today... or that someone has taken the initiative to remove Hendry from all news sources for a few days... We don't need that shitbag on our team again....

Completely off topic and sport -- but, given the Cedric Benson news and the importance of drafting well....

Bears #1 draft picks from 1979-1988:
- Al Harris
- Dan Hampton
- Otis Wilson
- Keith Van Horne
- Jim McMahon
- Willie Gault
- Jimbo Covert
- Wilbur Marshall
- The Fridge
- Neal Anderson

The 10 most recent #1 picks include Curtis Enis, Cade McKnown, David Terrell, Marc Colombo, Michael Haynes and Cedric Benson. Six busts, plus Rex (?), Gregg Olson and All Pros Urlacher and Tommie Harris.

Draft well over time, and you will win consistently. Draft like Jerry Angelo, and you'll be lucky to win 6 games this year.

Cubs recent #1 pick aren't exactly setting the world on fire.

Well then, I'm sure you'll agree that Wilken is accountable.

'79 through '86, I should think. That was the year Anderson was drafted. '87 was Harbaugh.

//bears geek

Ah -- maybe they had two first round picks in one of those years? I thought the starting point was Al Harris in 1979.

An amazing run of success -- most of those guys could probably start for the Bears right now. McMahon and Gault are probably still better than anything the Bears have today.

Rest In Peace Jim Finks.

Eyre is proving himself to be nastier than Howry thusfar... pleasant surprise.

Recent comments

The first 600 characters of the last 16 comments, click "View" to see rest of comment.
  • That was good!

  • Well said. On one hand, I thought the HBP was a bad baseball play -- down 4 runs, put a runner on for a red-hot Fowler. On the other hand, they needed to do something -- I hadn't thought about the warning/pitching inside point. Is Hurdle that smart? He does not strike me that way. By the way -- not clear which fan base you are referring to in your "first" 3rd point.

  • My unsolicited opinions on topics covered in this thread:
    1. I hate the fact that after 162 games, a team could be out after 1 game. However, I think the system is pretty close to perfect right now. 2 of 3 isn't feasible unless they shorten the regular season, and it ices the division winners for way too long. This creates excitement, and rewards the division winners.

  • Personally, I think the game could have had a very different look had the Pirates held onto the ball and tagged Fowler out on the steal in the first. Cole was clearly frazzled, but if they took that runner off the base, it could have relaxed him a lot.

  • Football games are played once a week. There are 16 games a year. I'm not even remotely following at all how you can compare the two leagues and playoff systems. It is physically impossible to play a home and away series. The idea of not having any road games in baseball playoffs is certainly a head scratcher.

    How is not having the first and last game at home a benefit for the division winners and team with the best record? How is it not an incentive to win the division when a WC team has to blow their top pitcher?

    Call me lost.

  • Two 97+ win teams in a do-or-die, great bullpens, overpowering starters, plenty of pop--hard to believe that game wouldn't be tense. A 4-0 lead is not a blowout, especially in that situation and with the Cubs' young bullpen. Not only would a defensive play here or there make a difference, but you get the win there also on the home plate umps strike zone (generous strike calls for Arrieta, including a couple Ks), and on Schwarber sitting on the right pitch at the right time.

  • Unbeleivable Dodgers:
    I just noticed the Dodger's payroll today. It is just absurd. $300,000,000+!!
    Here is where just some of their money is for 2015:


    Some "Highlights"
    Carl Crawford $20MM
    Brandon McCarthy $17MM
    Bronson Arroyo $3.5MM
    Darwin B $2.2MM
    Dan Haren $10MM
    Matt Kemp $18MM
    Brian Wilson $10MM
    Ryan Webb $2.2MM
    Dee Gordon $2.5MM

  • So I think tomorrow will be the most important test of how far we can go. We can win it all with two pitchers since Arietta has shown he can carry over his success to the post season. If Lester can be dominant also then I think we can go far no matter how Hendricks or Hammel do.


    And in terms of pitching just went through to see how we could maximize Lester and Arietta and came up with this (Lester would be going on 4 days rest three times and Arietta twice):

  • i still can't believe that crawford contract (7/142). all that loot and years for a LF'r who's entire hitting game revolves around his legs and line-drive power. those triples that raised his value are deceptive as hell to his true power, but it helped him get paid.

    there's also pause about a guy who's ob% is almost totally driven by hits rather than walks. BOS got lucky unloading that crap deal.

  • I think the Cubs take Berry and Soler off playoff roster and add Hammel & Ramirez. Believe Maddon will find Denorfia & Jackson defense too hard to lose.

  • O & B: I like the one-game Wild Card heart attack game, but I'd actually like to see a best two-out-of-three LDS played in the home parks of the two division winners with the best records, and then the LCS as a best two-out-of-three in the home park of the division winner left standing with the best record, and then let's get to the World Series already. 

  • I...don't know. If chanting would help the Cubs beat the Cardinals in the next series or ultimately the World Series I think I'd be ok with it lol. I'm not supportive of saying insulting things to opposing fans or throwing things but loud noise and chanting seems appropriate to me.

    I also grew up in France though and that kind of thing is par for the course at soccer and rugby matches and I love it. I find crowds too passive here.

  • Er, they won the first one. My bad. Carry on.

  • With last night's win in Pittsburgh, the Cubs have tied the Pirates with 98 wins, and are only 2-1/2 games behind the Cardinals. No reason why the Cubs can't finish the post-season with the best winning percentage in baseball (regular season & post-season combined).