Wood, Marmol, Howry — The "Nasty Men"?

Above all, there was the bullpen. If you didn't outscore the Reds in the first six innings, forget about winning. Rob Dibble, Norm Charlton and Randy Myers constituted the deadliest combination of 95-mph (or better) fastballs, swaggering attitude and occasional mullets in the game. So much so that the trio earned a nickname derived from a pre-wardrobe malfunction Janet Jackson: the Nasty Boys.

— Jonah Keri, espn.com

When Lou Piniella's Reds swept the heavily favored Oakland Athletics right out of the 1990 World Series, his trio of fireballing young relievers led the charge. After combining for 44 saves and a 2.14 ERA over a total 235.1 relief IP during the regular season, the threesome made an indelible mark in Fall Classic history by throwing 8 2/3 innings and allowing the mighty A's no earned runs on just six hits. Dibble won Game 2; Myers earned a save in the clinching Game 4.

(The Boys were no slouches in the NLCS either. Myers, the series MVP, saved three of the four Cincy victories over the Pirates, Charlton had a win, and the Nasty Boys struck out 20 and allowed just six hits and one earned run in 15 2/3 IP.)

Watching Piniella's current club at work and appreciating how his bullpen, particularly young set-up man Carlos Marmol, has contributed to the team's early season success, I thought it would be interesting to see how the three stalwarts in Piniella's Cub bullpen compare to the Nasty Boys of 18 summers ago.

The Nasty Boys first:

Pitcher Age
Opp. BA
Myers 27 66 86.2 31 2.08 .193
Dibble 26 68 98 11 1.74 .183
Charlton (relief apps. only) 27 40 50.2 2 3.02 .249

Myers, who was acquired from the Mets before the 1990 season and would save 112 games for the Cubs between 1993 and '95, was the Reds closer. Consistent with the rest of baseball at the time, however, "closing" sometimes meant entering a game before the ninth. In fact, most of Myers' 31 saves, 18 to be exact, were earned in appearances of more than one inning.

Dibble was the chief set-up man, though he also saw 17 save opportunities and converted 11. Charlton also shared in the set-up duties until mid-season, when he was moved into the rotation. When the post-season began, however, Charlton rejoined the other Boys in the bullpen.

In all, Reds relievers accounted for 32% of all innings thrown by Cincinnati pitchers in 1990, which was right on par with the rest of the National League. The Nasty Boys accounted for 50% of all the Reds' relief innings.


I've got three top-notch relief pitchers on this ballclub, and that's one of the reasons we've been successful this year.

— Lou Piniella, on 6/8/08 ESPN broadcast


Now, the '08 Cubs trio, with projected Games, Innings Pitched and Saves, based on play so far, shown in parens:

Pitcher Age
G (Proj.) IP (Proj.)
Sv (Proj.)
Opp. BA
Wood 31 33 (84) 32.1 (82) 16 (41) 2.62 .178
Marmol 25 33 (84) 40 (101) 3 (8) 2.25 .134
Howry 34 30 (76) 32 (81) 1 (3) 4.50 .297

(Note: to some degree, the Saves projections assume that the Cubs will continue to play .625 ball the rest of the way, which would be swell, but is unlikely.)

Wood, in the mold of the typical closer in recent years, averages almost exactly one inning per outing. Young Marmol has been brilliant, recording an NL-high 19 holds and embarrassing one professional hitter after another in his role as the set-up ace. And while Howry's numbers pale alongside those of the other pitchers' mentioned in this piece, he has been stellar since the 1st of May, pitching to a 1.93 ERA over 18 2/3 IP, with 19 K's against just 3 BB.

So far in 2008, Cub relievers have accounted for about 37% of the team's total IP (slightly ahead of the NL's overall 36%), and Messrs. Wood, Marmol, and Howry have thrown just under 50% of the Cubs' relief innings.

The innings pitched by the Reds' Nasties and the Cubs' projected IP are remarkably close when one accounts for the fact that Charlton spent only spent about half the season coming out of the bullpen.

Of course, there is at least one obvious but important difference between the '90 Nasty Boys and the '08 Nasty Men: the three Reds pitchers were all in their mid- to late-20s. In addition to the 25-year-old Marmol, Lou is leaning on the 31-year-old, oft-injured Wood and the 34-year-old Howry. While Myers, Dibble, and Charlton only appeared en masse in 8 games in 1990—again, Charlton was moved into the rotation in July—Wood, Marmol, and Howry have already appeared in the same game 8 times. Piniella alluded to some concern about overuse during his in-game interview on ESPN Sunday night and said he is at least trying to avoid using all three pitchers in the same game.

Will Lou be able to keep his three key bullpen arms fresh all season long? That would seem to depend on how well the starting pitchers perform and how tight the NL Central race remains and for how long into September. The '90 Reds, for instance, led the NL West from beginning to end in 1990, but saw their once formidable lead shrink to just 3.5 games over the Dodgers in mid-September, so those high-leverage relief innings still needed to be pitched, longer than Lou Piniella would have wished.

Finally, a cautionary note in all this:

As previously noted, Randy Myers had a long successful career post-1990, including that haul with the Cubs, And Charlton, the set-up man turned starter, pitched to age 38, through the 2001 season. He retired having appeared in 605 games, throwing almost 900 innings (all of them after 1992 as a reliever), and he finished with a 112 ERA+.

But Rob Dibble, the spectactular flamethrower and, as he demonstrated on more than one on-field occasion, the spectacular lunkhead, didn't have a long baseball life. After saving a combined 56 games in 1991 and '92, he got hurt in 1993, lost his velocity and control (42 BB in 41 2/3 IP) and pitched his last Major League game in 1995.

He did have this apt summation of life as one of the Nasty Boys, one which I would like to think also captures the way the Cubs relief trio feels about itself:

That was a very unified bullpen. We knew how good we were, and it was actually fun to torture hitters on other teams. It was a blast. I've never had so much fun. It wasn't just baseball, it was like you were in Little League again.



And more pitching:

In looking at ESPN's aggragate stats now, the Cubs are #1 in pitching. Braves, #2.

But, the Braves road record is the worst in baseball.

Cubs staff leads in ERA, 2nd in BAA, 1st in K's.

Also, leads MLB in aggragate hitting stats. I do not recall a recent Cub team doing this. '89 possibly?

2003? IIRC, 2003 we kicked ass with pitching in overall stats - and team batting we were in the top 5.

OT but Cubnut's fantastic piece on the Roberts's-to-Cubs rumor history was yet again linked by a major blog, this time it's Yahoo's Big League Stew, their official baseball blog. Congratulations, TCR and Cubnut!

Here's the post by the Stew: click here.

Sorry for the gush, but this is an awesome article. I finally registered just to say so.

It is fun to follow this Cubs team, of course, but watching Marmol and Wood when they are on is on another level of fun. There was a recent game when I think Marmol walked a guy and then there was a single and he proceeded to blow the next guys away. And Wood on Sunday was a wow too.

Thanks, Carlos. I was hoping the Bulls/Doug Collins dance could go on a while longer so the graphic could be adapted.

And thanks, WT.

Updated All-Star voting out. Soriano, Fukodome, Soto still in position to start. Lee, DeRosa, Ramirez all second, and Theriot third in what has turned into a dogfight at short stop.


Is it safe to say based on those numbers they must have just counted up a fresh batch of ASG Ballots from Wrigley?

The Astros also have someone in the top 4 of every position, except Catcher, so I'm guessing Houston also was in the latest batch to be counted.

And I'm still writting-in Neifi, damnit.

Cubnut - How about breaking out Arizona Phil's favorite pic of the Nasty Boys he posted with his "Nasty Boys" piece from last year? That pic was priceless/hilarious.

AZ Phil--A request to break into your photo vault!

talk about nasty

... one must hope that Hendry did not see post #9, or any other place where this news is sprinkled today... or that someone has taken the initiative to remove Hendry from all news sources for a few days... We don't need that shitbag on our team again....

Completely off topic and sport -- but, given the Cedric Benson news and the importance of drafting well....

Bears #1 draft picks from 1979-1988:
- Al Harris
- Dan Hampton
- Otis Wilson
- Keith Van Horne
- Jim McMahon
- Willie Gault
- Jimbo Covert
- Wilbur Marshall
- The Fridge
- Neal Anderson

The 10 most recent #1 picks include Curtis Enis, Cade McKnown, David Terrell, Marc Colombo, Michael Haynes and Cedric Benson. Six busts, plus Rex (?), Gregg Olson and All Pros Urlacher and Tommie Harris.

Draft well over time, and you will win consistently. Draft like Jerry Angelo, and you'll be lucky to win 6 games this year.

Cubs recent #1 pick aren't exactly setting the world on fire.

Well then, I'm sure you'll agree that Wilken is accountable.

'79 through '86, I should think. That was the year Anderson was drafted. '87 was Harbaugh.

//bears geek

Ah -- maybe they had two first round picks in one of those years? I thought the starting point was Al Harris in 1979.

An amazing run of success -- most of those guys could probably start for the Bears right now. McMahon and Gault are probably still better than anything the Bears have today.

Rest In Peace Jim Finks.

Eyre is proving himself to be nastier than Howry thusfar... pleasant surprise.

Recent comments

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  • based on what SF has been doing every other year lately, getting access to the postseason playoffs seems to be what's important. bring on dat short series!

    that said, skipping the sudden death 1-game WC would be nice from here on out.

  • I know what you are saying, but I feel compelled to point out that there's no such thing as luck, curses, etc. The Cubs this year have as good as a chance as the Pirates to move on to the next round. If the Cubs proceed to the next round or not tomorrow, it will not be because of luck, but because one team outlasted the other. When/if the Cubs are lucky enough to make it to the league series, that's where they may find their biggest challenge. The Dodgers have a good, deep pitching staff.

  • debuting the new format 1 game "sudden death" WC matchup at yankee stadium does a perfect job of showing the intense emotion and drama this game can be.

    that said, i'm ready to not see yankee stadium or hear fans at yankee stadium for another 5 and 1/2 months. at least i don't have to sit through the braves with their "tommy hawk chawp" this postseason.

  • i'd like to know why the mlb.tv internet radio feed of the game (which is always delayed by a few seconds at best) is almost a minute faster than the ESPN cable TV coverage. wtf?

  • i dont know what order they'll be in, but i pretty much expect fowler/schwarb/rizzo/bryant/montero/castro/lastella/arrieta. any change at all (aside from the first 4 guys) wouldn't shock me, though. coghlan is still a wildcard in the lineup equation...plus joe could always march d.ross out there with very slow arrieta pitching.

  • Yup. Have to agree. Baseball, like golf, certainly has that psych component for the player. There is no real reason why a fielding position should affect a batting average. The Cubs are 106 years over due for a little luck. Don't you guys think so? Maybe the rookies can bring some dumb luck on.

  • probably stacking capable lefties vs cole while keeping the "hot" castro in the game. fwiw, he's 1-6 lifetime with 0 bb/k vs cole (double).

    i chalk bryant's issues at the plate while playing OF up to coincidence so far.

  • I will call your dead horse, "Trigger".

    In one game, when anything is possble, I am glad that Joe Maddon is our Manager.

    He knows the stats better than all of us. It would seem, IF La Stella gets the start at 3B, it will be only up to the point that they were to get the lead (crosses fingers). From everything I have read, the game will be managed like a hoops game: offense/defense. So expect La Stella to be out of the game by the 5th. This team is incredibly deep which is so surprising. We never woulda thunk it.

  • i don't know what their roster plans are, but j.herrera is out there practicing with the team.

    i can't imagine him making any roster, though. dude had 4 PA the entire month of sept. him being a good dude to be around while keeping the clubhouse loose seems to be his main role at this point.

  • I know it's my own personal dead horse to beat --but Bryant has been a lousy hitter when playing the OF this year. Given that it's his first playoff game, I really hope they keep him in his natural position and don't mess with his routine.

    Lousy as in 8-for-45 with one XBH and no HR. Small sample and all that -- but why take the chance?

  • hard to tell what's up given they'll probably want to stack as many good lefties into the lineup as possible.

    castro being a bit hot doesn't help things. if he was still cool they'd probably stick la stella at 2nd and call it a day.

  • Madden won't announce lineups but Stella is practicing at 3rd and Bryant in LF today. I'd rather see Bryant at 3rd but I guess Stella has been hotter than Coghlan.

    /edit. Though I guess they could be practicing this with the idea Stella would come in as a PH then double switch him to 3rd base and Bryant to LF. Hope that's the plan instead

  • I really like the sound of that idea about expanding the AFL to ten teams. Each org. gets to field more players.
    They should do that anyway, regardless of Adv. Instructs.

  • Dallas Beeler, Corey Black, David Garner, Pierce Johnson, Steve Perakslis, James Pugliese, Duane Underwood Jr, and Rob Zastryzny threw early-morning bullpen side-sessions at Riverview yesterday.  

    Underwood threw last, and received specific one-on-one instruction from pitching coach Mike Mason. 

  • HAGSAG: There are only five advanced instructs squads left, and presently the only "co-op" team operating is the Angels/Cubs.

    The league was originally established as a "parallel" league to the AFL (a sort of "junior AFL"), for players too advanced for traditional ("basic") instructs but who were unable to get placed on AFL rosters due to AFL player-limits.

  • He is but I would think it'd be better to start out with offense and then bring in Jackson and LaStella once they have a lead. Stella has very good PH #s too.