Outfield Contracts

Player A: Contract: 3 years (2006-2008), $16,000,000 Ages: 31-33 Career: .280/.328/.461/.789 amd 11 SB/162 Games A noodle-armed left-handed hitting right-fielder who struggles (to be generous) against left-handed pitching, he's also a great "hustle" and "character" guy. Player B: Contract: 5 years, $55,000,000 Ages: 32-36 Career: .263/.336/.419/.755 and 12 SB/162 Games A switch-hitter who can play all OF positions adequately and will appear on Sports Center with a couple of ridiculous Web Gems. Also a great "hustle" and "character" guy. Player C: Contract: 5 years, $44,000,000 Ages: 29-32 Career: .303/.350/.377/.727 and 52 SB/162 Games A noodle-armed left-handed hitting CFer. Yet another great "hustle" and "character" guy. Also a "True Leadoff Man" And just for kicks, Player D: Contract: Near league-minimum for 2007-2008, Arbitration Elgible 2009-2011, FA 2012 Ages: 25-29 Career: .303/.370/.462/.832 and 6 SB/162 Games A noodle-armed left-fielder who sometimes looks ugly out there, but by at least one measure has good range. Also considered a great "hustle" guy. I take it that you can figure out who these four gentlemen are. Player A is suddenly looking a lot more appealing than he did when he signed that contract last year. Player D looks golden. Or maybe that's just the sheen from his hair. Update Player E (as in Lee): Contract: 6 years, $100,000,000 Ages: 31-36 Career: .286/.340/.495/.835 and 13 SB/162 Games A right-handed hitting left-fielder with possible weight issues and a reputation for attitude problems/basic jerk-ness. The contract the Astros just handed Lee, in conjunction with the Pierre and Matthews contracts, is beginning to make that Soriano deal almost sort of look like something kind of reasonable. What's your early vote for the most ridiculous contract this off-season?


Unfortunately, Player D will probably find his butt on the bench by the end of ST. I really hope that in his bid to rebuild the team, Hendry is looking to deal Jones. I won't be too upset if he's on the team next year, but if he can be part of a package to net us a bigger fish, either in the outfield or in the rotation, I'm all for that.

Carlos Lee, reported 6 year deal with the F'in Astros. http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.js...

Astros give Lee $100mil over 6 years: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2... Sucks that he's in the division and he could thrive in Houston batting with Berkman. Still not scared of the Astros yet. Now everbody can stop bitching about how much we paid Soriano. Who would you rather have, Soriano for $17mil a year or Lee for $16mil a year?

El Cabayo, $16.6M/yr with no state Taxes...I think he gets to keep more than Alfonso at least for 6 yrs. No wonder Baltimore couldn't compete with the Astros.That's alot of Cheeseburgers for CLee...wonder if Glendon Rusch is interviewing as his valet, trainer and batting practice pitcher.

steve: Astros give Lee $100mil over 6 years: I want whatever the GMs have been smoking.

Crap. I was really hoping Lee would wind up in the AL and stop beating up the Cubs for a while. Now he's in the Central again. Sigh. No shock with Houston though. My understanding is that he owns a ranch there, and the money's certainly good. So does this make the oft-injured JD Drew the best available free agent OF? Yikes.

"I want whatever the GMs have been smoking." Yeah, obviously it's some good shit and probably expensive.

From a fabulous analysis of this deal at the baseballthinkfactory http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/ora... "For 6 years of Carlos Lee, you could get the 3 years of Catalanotto ($13.5), 2 years of Mussina ($22.5), 2 years of Frank Thomas ($18), with 36 million left over for a couple years of Bonds or whatever suits your fancy." and "In other words, the Astros will be paying $15 million a year for the age 31-36 seasons of a player who's never had a season as good as Tim Salmon's average year (OPS+ of 129 with better defense)." Ah, and it also echoes my remarks about Soriano starting to look like a good deal. Great minds, and all.....

the softer side of Jacque Jones...not sure what to think of this one, but it seems like a nice Thanksgiving story. http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/millingto... Chicago Cub gives car to his Millington 'family' Olympian Jacque Jones thanks 'other mom'

For the longest time, I have believed via a series of societal indicators, that we are witnessing the slow and gradual decline of Western civilization, and baseball provides as relevant an indicator as any. The fact that grown men actually pay this much money for a professional athlete is not only indescribable (at least to me), but it shows just how much money is being spent by the masses on a game that center around a little white ball. It boggles my mind and makes me cringe to see what has become of the national pastime, and how much each super sized signing further disconnects us everyday joes from a game that many of us played as boys. I give everyone who makes it to the show their just due, cause it's hard and very few can call themselves major league baseball palyers, but the money being shown athletes today is out of touch with their true value by any realistic measure that I know. Someday off in the future, the game will come back to the fans, but for now, it seems to be all about the money. I find little to like in this current epoch of pro sports, and by the way, I think Jim Hendry is a fool who would be better served by being in another line of work - one that has nothing to do with the Chicago Cubs.

Jk1969: It boggles my mind and makes me cringe to see what has become of the national pastime, and how much each super sized signing further disconnects us everyday joes from a game that many of us played as boys. Athletes getting overpaid is nothing new. It's an industry with a lot of money... like the movie industry... or music industry. It's nothing new. It's not the decline of Western civilization. It's just people getting over-paid with gobs of money.

JK, point that finger at yourself, brother. You are at fault for this. As am I, RobG, MannyTrillo, MikeC and every other clown that follows this sport. WE are the reason they get paid so much. It's not that 'athletes' get over paid its certain athletes in certain sports get outrageous amounts of money. Go check out pro-bowlers or the WNBA. How about professional soccer or area football. Most of us get paid better than all those people. The problem is that I and millions of other people buy tickets to the games, jerseys, paid subscriptions for MLB.tv and such. We create the market. If WE stopped going to the games and stopped giving them money, Carlos Lee would be lucky to get a 6 year $60,000 a year contract. Don't hate the players hate the fans.

"Someday off in the future, the game will come back to the fans, but for now, it seems to be all about the money." I doubt in the future players are going to play for the money. They will be paid even more money. Good players do recieve enormous amounts of money, but they have special abilities that not very many players have. And Jim Hendry is not a fool, he's trying to put together a winning baseball club, and to get a winning team he has to give up a lot of money. I guess for him not to be a fool to you is for him to sign a bunch of minor leaguers getting paid the league minimum.

"I doubt in the future players are going to play for the money." Meant to say, "In the future players will still play only for the money."

I've also seen that article, CUBSTER. I sort of wonder how comfortable this (presumably modest, middle-class) family will be riding around town in a decked-out mercedes. Then there's also the Oprah Phenomenon: giving people cars that they can't afford the insurance payments on. I don't mean to be a jerk about it, I'd be incredibly grateful if some student of mine goes on to great success and gives me a Mercedes. It's just sort of like giving your kid an elephant for her birthday. It's cool to be the only one on the block to have one, but.... In any case, I'll take it as more proof that Jones is a good guy.

"Then there's also the Oprah Phenomenon: giving people cars that they can't afford the insurance payments on." Welcome to Los Angeles, CA!

Oprah didn't pay anything out of her pocket for those cars. Pontiac donated them for essentially advertising purposes. As for the $ being thrown around, if someone like Tom Cruise, who couldn't act his way onto a 20,000 populative town's civic theatre, can pocket $20m a picture for 4 months work I can be a little more flexible on a ballplayer getting $16 million for 6-7 months, especially if he's a well conditioned athelete who trains in the off-season.

I remember when Pete Rose signed a contract for $100,00.00. I couldn't believe it. I know he wasn't the first one to sign for that money, but he was a singles hitter at the time. Players now are signing for $18,000.00 per year. Where do you think this will be in 25 years. Players making $100,000.000.00 per year? I don't really blame the players for getting all that can get, but what will a ticket cost to see a game., $500.00? Hard to take your kids to a game with that possible admission charge. I was wronged! Shoeless Joe

I remember when Pete Rose signed a contract for $100,00.00. I couldn't believe it. I know he wasn't the first one to sign for that money, but he was a singles hitter at the time. Players now are signing for $18,000.00 per year. Where do you think this will be in 25 years. Players making $100,000.000.00 per year? I don't really blame the players for getting all that can get, but what will a ticket cost to see a game., $500.00? Hard to take your kids to a game with that possible admission charge. I was wronged! Shoeless Joe

The Astros blog comments on the Lee signing are funny. Stop me if you've heard this before: Hes going to look damn good in the middle of the order but purp and company overpaid big time IMO..... I'm more bothered by the years than... the money to be honest. But I think it's necessary.

No ballplayer is "worth" $16 million in the sense of his relative value to society or anything like that, but that's not the question. The question is, what is the ballplayer worth to the person/company that is paying him? When you look at the increased ticket revenue, TV ratings, merchandise sales, etc. etc. that can be generated for a team owner by a superstar, you can make an argument that some of them are actually UNDERpaid. Given the state of the Astros, Lee is probably worth at least what he's being paid. Soriano too, given the dip in TV ratings that the Cubs suffered last year. It ain't "fair" and the players don't "deserve" that money in the traditional sense. But in purely economic terms (and that's really what's relevant to the owners and players), they are worth every penny.

I was surprised and delighted when the Rangers decided not to sign Carlos Lee. They have managed to do so many DUMB things in the past. Whew!

ive met more than a few idealistic 18 year olds who are in it for the "love of the game." they wanna play college baseball and get an education and experience their youth in the face of a possible huge money (or in some cases "just" a few thousand bucks that's a lot to a kid). even the college programs rip the innocence outta it and the most idealistic becomes exposed to the system that revolves around millions of dollars and 100s of thousands paid to scouts who travel around figuring out how many digits these kids are worth. its a meat market out there that can whip the innocence outta anyone. even highschool ball in socal/so-fla/texas are competitive to the point people will move their kids 10-100-1000 miles away just to get into more visible programs. once you get over 16 years old, unless you're in a low key area or playing at a less competitive tallent area, you're in the machine. leave your ideals at the door or wear them on you like a badge.

"once you get over 16 years old, unless you're in a low key area or playing at a less competitive tallent area, you're in the machine." ...or if your parents are total jackasses who wanna live through you, they'll move to Tom's River to latch onto a national little league program. i seriously can't believe this happens, but it does.

"100s of thousands paid to scouts" just for clarification...that's a rough/dirty figure for all the scouts, not a scout. scouts are paid pretty cruddy, really...most of them, anyway. lucky to get 25-40K a year for a huge chunk of the scouting population.

astros get woody williams, too.

clee's deal is now being stated as a 6/90 deal (15m)

Funny how the Astros were the worst hitting team in the NL despite playing at Minute Maid. Any word yet on the money given to Woody?

Woody got 2 yrs for 12.5 mil

Personally, I am disraught about having to see Carlos Lee in Wrigley nine times. Ugh!

"Lee has hit .333 with 12 homers in 123 career at-bats at Wrigley Field" CubKiller!

What I was trying to articulate in my earlier post had nothing to do with pointing the finger at players, GM or the fans, rather I was attempting to offer a data point which serves to help illustrate the excessiveness that permeates our culture. Others can say it better and offer more concrete examples, but to me, baseball today serves as a real-time example of the upside down nature of economics and the value that attached to a professional baseball player--it is bizarre that we think of this a sane and efficent process when a guy can make nearly $400K a year plus meal money for being nothing more than a substitute. I still think it's a great game between the white lines, but nearly everything else around it I frankly find repulsive and attributable to the excesses that come with the human condition.

Re: JK1969 It's been interesting to watch the debate you brought up--however, I think you'd be better off looking at the people who own the team and how much money they make off the professional atheltes they employ. Really, when you think of it, $16 million isn't a whole lot of money for these guys. If you figure that the Cubs regularly draw 2 million fans (and didn't we top three last season?) at Wrigley Field with an average ticket price of (I'm making this up) $35 that's at least $70 million right there... a year... every year. Just in ticket sales. Add in the fact that fans buy merchandise, and then TV revenue, and then food, and the $5 Bud Light... We freak out over how much athletes get paid, but the truth is, no matter how you look at it these guys have to work VERY hard to get to where they are. And they make tons of money only because they've reached the highest level of their profession. The corporate equivalent of major league baseball players are people like Donald Trump--and no one complains about how much money they make.

its more about what professional baseball is worth more than what any single employee is paid. when the pool of money is considered (which is impossible thanks to the total lack of transparency for mlb clubs and their money flow) what's more important is how much money there is to begin with. chances are it'll put anyone's individual contracts into some kinda scope. its the people who tolerate the $15-$125 tickets, $5 beers, and other overpriced concessions that contribute to this environment just as much (or in some opinions, even less) than the athletes demanding more money. no doubt there is a push-push thing going on from both sides, though.

I'm still trying to figure out who the players are in the post. I think I may have had a little too much Friday after Thanksgiving Early Times. I'm really quite puzzled right now. Shameful, I know.

Jones, Matthews, Pierre, Murton, Lee. I'm glad we have Murton, and man I hope he not only plays but bats 2nd. And Jones isn't looking so bad in this crazy market. And the point is aren't we glad we aren't paying the salaries of those other guys; yes, the Soriano deal is looking better and better. But I'd love to see Jones and Dempster traded for a couple dozen baseballs to free up some more Trib dollars to sign J.D. Drew! :) Pagan will serve as a fine 4th OF/Drew caddy for the 50 games he misses. But 112 games of Drew is better than 162 of Jones, especially if Sweet Lou doesn't platoon him. In this market suddenly Jones's salary is like a platoon partner's, so his "big" contract and Dusty are no longer excuses to see him be an everyday player. Eduardo Perez is out there. Who else might be a candidate to go with him if we don't deal him? Craig Wilson?

I said it before and I'll say it again...and probably again. The Matthews contract is by far the most ridiculous. 10 million for a guy who is a .270 hitter--at best? A guy who had 500 or more at-bats exactly ONCE by the age of 31? 10 million freaking bucks? For Sarge Lite? What were the Angels thinking? Does anyone know Sarge Lite's career numbers at Angel Stadium? I bet the Angels don't. Here they are: AVG OBP SLG OPS .239 .293 .337 .630 And one home run. Only 92 at bats, but ugh.

I just noticed that the depth chart at cubs.com has exactly 0 players listed in center. The Fonz is in left and Jacque's in right.

cubs.com depth chart is very informal. its pretty much universally believed that soriano is here to play RF or CF and jones may be playing RF or CF, but nothing's been explicitly stated yet.

Now that we seem to be at a lull point for Cubs off-season signings, I think it is good time for a post about the Cubs current salary commitments for '07, and potential options w/ money left over. Just briefly, they seem to have spent about 100-105 million thus far (that is counting Ramirez at only 9.33 million this year -- 8M base + signing bonus), then allotting raises for Z & Prior thru arbitration. I think a big priority needs to be signing Z long-term, which might bring our team roster to right around 105 million. That gives us about 15-20 million (hopefully) left for 2 SPs, and maybe one more bat.....

I still think the Soriano deal is the most ridiculous yet. Mainly because of the length. 8 years is going to be an albatross hanging over the Cubs soon enough, guaranteed. Lee getting $16 per and GMJ getting $110 per after 1 productive season is absolutely insane as well however. I can tell you what the steal will be this off season and that's ARam. Wonder if he's kicking himself at all or feeling like he got chumped. 2 weeks in and I wonder if he already has any regrets? Gee, wouldn't that be just fabulous!

Phil Rogers and Rotoworld are both pointing out how Jaque Jones is being shopped. I remember giving out that information on Tue night in the Rapada thread and being questioned..hmmmm

Wow Dallas, very impressive! I never would've imagined the Cubs would be shopping JJ! Please tell me wise one, will the sun come out tomorrow?

Wow Dallas, very impressive! I never would've imagined the Cubs would be shopping JJ! Please tell me wise one, will the sun come out tomorrow?

Oh relax, it was tounge-in cheek.

Yes by the way, however expect it to be mostly cloudy by afternoon.

I'm a little worried about the plan of trading Jones for a pitcher because it would leave us very right handed. I think our outfield might look like this after it's all said and done Murton-lf Lofton-cf Soriano-rf Flyod-4th

I can tell you what the steal will be this off season and that's ARam. Wonder if he's kicking himself at all or feeling like he got chumped. 2 weeks in and I wonder if he already has any regrets? Gee, wouldn't that be just fabulous! NO, Aram is not kicking himself. He already knew he could get that kind of money (Beltran money) if he went onto the open market. it's quite obvious that he really wants to stay with the Cubs. He signed with full knowledge that he gave Chicago a 20% discount.

DALLA GREEN: I wouldn't lose sleep over "your" lineup. I don't know who "Flyod" is, but with the current Cubs manager, and rejuvinated GM, I can assure you he is aware that having LH batters will be important to the team, and would expect to either hang on to Jones, and/or acquire more LH talent.

and if DG's outfield comes to fruition...it's rebalanced in the lefty-righty game at least as far as Lofton/JJones goes especially if Floyd comes in for occaisional power boosts. and I like the bonus of a 1-2 punch of Soriano-Lofton 1) Lofton is a lefty bat. Lofton is old enough and only got into 129 games last yr... which is more than I thought before looking that up. Still we'd might see either Soriano in CF on occaision or else Angel Pagan who's a switch hitter. (...from the last thread, I'm thankful that we won't see Jose Macias in CF) Lofton's splits vs rightys last yr are .319/.379/.431/.763 2) Murton's splits vs Rightys are .295/.356/.426.782 and Murton's splits vs Lefty's are .301/.385/.485/.870...so Murton is showing he's not in need of a platoon partner 3A) Cliff Floyd is a lefty bat and his splits vs Righty's last yr are .266/.342/.423/.765; and 3yr are .277/.369/.498/.867...so he's a nice addition mostly for power but I think he'd be best off the bench (replacing Mabry's bat last yr). Floyd last yr was 0-5 as a pinch hitter but in Wrigley he was 4-10 with 2 HR's. 3B) Mabry had an ugly 2006 but he was 10-22 as an OF and a very ugly 8-41 as a pinch hitter/1-7 as a DH. We desperately need to upgrade that roster spot and Floyd makes sense if he can't get a regular DH job. Mabry only has 210 AB's to replace, about as much as one can expect from Floyd's frequent walking wounded status. 4) I like the idea that "IF" Felix Pie by mid season earns his MLB roster spot, he's solve all the above discussion. Lefty bat. High ceiling for defense, speed and power...and then you have a bench of Floyd and Lofton which is very strong.

CUBSTER: Are you saying that you think there are more productive miles in the Lofton tank? So the CW, from your post is Lofton is used in the #2 hole, as a one-year rental until Pie is brought up? What if Pie is traded for innings-eating pitcher? Do we do it? IF this is the case, does the club then sign Dave Roberts? With Pierre getting a $10MM/yr. deal, what is Roberts going to get? And - what have you heard on the Ortho front re Prior injury rumors (if anything)? OR, does he REALLY need psychiactric help, not physical?

other rumors/tidbits Saturday... Giants near resigning Rich Aurelia ($3M x 2) and the signing of Dave Roberts ($6M x 3) who wanted to stay with Bruce Bochy, Brewers apparently were the bridesmaids for Roberts. The Giants are also pursuing Mark Loretta and David Weathers. The Giants sure do have alot of holes to fill. http://tinyurl.com/y3toql http://tinyurl.com/y37slc Jermaine Van Buren is now on the Nationals 40 man roster.

And - what have you heard on the Ortho front re Prior injury rumors (if anything)? OR, does he REALLY need psychiactric help, not physical? -- They say he has a "loose" shoulder and it just needs strengthening. my take is he needs a good gynecologist. - The Lofton tank, when empty, will still be good on the bench. He knows how to win. I've heard that the Pie is still in the Cubs plans. I'd expect they can find a good trading partner using Ronnie Cedeno as the prospect chip...since he's not going to be getting much action unless Izturis leg falls off...and even then I'd rather see Theriot getting the next shot.

I don't think Ronnie Cedeno would really be much of a sweetner in a trade. But after his '06 season I think his being added to a deal could possibly bring some spare parts for a pitching machine or rakes and hoses for the grounds crew.

No to Kenny Lofton. Just too old. Worst contract- Woody Williams!! holy crap. The Astros will have to close Crawford box for all the fans getting killed when Williams pitches. I would like to get Roberts with Mamu in LF and Soriano in Rf. Trade JJ and Pie for a starter. If JJ stays maybe LouPa can get to him and get his head out of his ass with the baserunning and worrying about the fans.

While I"m sure Ronnie Cedeno would never be a centerpiece to a trade, I would feel confident that he could be one of those guys that gets added to the deal at the end to put it over the top, like Sergio Mitre in the Juan Pierre deal. The fact that Neifi Perez, Jose Macias, and Tom Goodwin can find jobs places would lead me to believe that somebody, somewhere will find a modicum of value in Ronny Cedeno.

I think the Royals would be happy to take Cedeno off the Cubs' hands. What's a 'Mamu'? I think the Matthews deal is the worst of the contracts by far. Followed by Pierre's and Soriano's.

We need OBP help, so I like the Lofton idea for 2007. It looks like it's actually a good time to have a cheap one year band-aid. We should spend a few million on Lofton, then use JJ and the rest of the budget on pitching. The lineup would look like this: Player 3 year avg avg/obp/slg Lofton...306/.367/.406 Soriano..275/.329/.519 Lee.......303/.385/.568 Ramirez..304/.361/.569 Murton...303/.370/.462 Barret....289/.349/.494 DeRosa...270/.332/.410 Izturis...271/.315/.351 If Theriot can play SS every day I'd take him in a heartbeat over Izturis. What do you think?

"I think the Matthews deal is the worst of the contracts by far. Followed by Pierre's and Soriano's." Neal: How long have you been a Cub fan? How many games a year do you go to? Me? 40+ years as a Cub fan. IF, again - IF - Soriano is the catalyst that brings the Cubs to a World Series, it is the BEST FUCKING CONTRACT they ever signed a player to. Its NOT YOUR money, is it?

TRN - a mamu is a Matt Murton. Let's not be challenging each other's Cubs Fan Bonafides. We're all hear to see our team win.

I believe Ronny Cedeno has more trade value than you guys think. His value has gone down since his crappy '06 season. However, he's young and he did have a couple stretches where he showed flashes of a good ballplayer. He would not be the centerpiece of a big deal but could be the piece that makes the other team pull the trigger. And enough of the damn Kenny Lofton talk. Also no way to Roberts. Pie would probably put up similar numbers to those of Lofton or Roberts.

"Let's not be challenging each other's Cubs Fan Bonafides. We're all hear to see our team win." Yes we're all HERE for this. But, it is amazing for some TCR "analysts" to assert their negative viewpoints at even the most positive of news. In light of the GM totally sucking-ass for 2+ years, we should be rejoicing at the mere FACT that he went ahead and signed the #1 and 1a FA's available. All SOME of the TCR bloggers can do is bitch about the length of the contracts, or the money! Yet more than likely, those same people would complain had the Cubs signed the folks that weren't at the top of the charts, remarking that the CUBS never go after the top guys! I was one who have NEVER thought Hendry would have been able to pull of magnitude-deals. I was wrong and happily admit it. For better or worse (mostly worse), the tack re have recently taken has failed miserably. Time to try another method - $$ and contract years be damned! We DESERVE it!

And the absolute only thing that some bloggers can do is generalize. I wonder if they had grown up in an alternate universe where the sky is pink, if they's use fewer counter-factuals when making arguments? Should we really rely on rhetorical questions? People who challenge my use of ad hominem attacks are mommy-loving terrorist morons. Using Reductio Ad Absurdum arguments is a slippery slope where you wind up simply arguing for nihilism. Circular logic is a problem for people who don't know how to use it right. The fact that I'm using it right is proof that it's not a problem for me. This is fun!

You don't need left handed hitters if most of your lineup hits both LH and RH pitching well. The Cardinals are a RH heavy lineup but their players for the most part hit well against both types of pitchers. We got Soriano, Lee, Murton, Ramirez, Barrett who hit RH and LH pitching. Jones crushes righties, DeRosa crushes lefties, and Izturis can't hit from either side of the plate. It is a fairly solid lineup now with the addition of Soriano. I can now live with Izturis playing nothing but defense and hitting like Neifi.

#50 of 63: By the E-Man (November 25, 2006 08:57 AM) DALLA GREEN: I don't know who "Flyod" is - You really couldn't comprehend what Dallas Green meant by "Flyod"? Either you are just being an ass, or you are the biggest idiot on this board. And it's pretty damn funny that you make fun of someone for misspelling "Floyd" and then you leave the "S" off of the end of the posters name. You are very intelligent.... please keep posting so we can all become more enlightened. After all, the viewpoints of other TCR bloggers or TCR "analysts" are obviously inferior to yours.

"Jones crushes righties, DeRosa crushes lefties, and Izturis can't hit from either side of the plate." This made me LOL, but to revise: Jones crushes righties, DeRose crushes lefties, and Izturis crushes rallies.

Trans -- I would also point out that the worst thing someone can do in a logical debate is lose objectivity and cling emotionally to one's arguments. I believe that very strongly and you will never be able to convince me otherwise.

hehehehheeeee nice. Did you know that studies show that Winston Churchill's remark about people who "use statistics like a drunkard uses a lamp-post: for support, not for illumination" is accurate 82% of the time?

Hey, in a temporary break from the snark, did anyone know that Pat Hughes is putting out a series of CDs on great baseball broadcasters? the first two are available for order, and are on Jack Buck and Harry Caray. here's the page on Harry. http://baseballvoices.com/html/harry_caray.html I'll buy a copy at the end of the month, and review it at TCR sometime aound the new year.

article about the CDs is here http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/colum... Looks promising.

E-Man is a $%$#[email protected]: And you are such a FUCKING COWARD you can't even use your own marquee name. OF course I was kidding - but you didn't get it. asshole.

Any CD with Pat is worth having. You know those "smooth voice" commercials with Young Buck? Totally should be Pat. Maybe it's experience, but it seems like the current "older" generation of broadcasters have so much more intonative voices than the young ones, who sometimes react to big plays like they're calling a grounder to second.

I surrender, I can't keep up in this battle. You win, E-man. Do with me as you see fit. Only, please, spare the innocent women and children. There are a lot of young broadcasters who almost act like it's beneath them to be calling the game. like it's an imposition.

For the use of most all TCR posters: My shit is better than your shit because your shit stinks and mine does not (Feel free to copy and paste rather than wasting minutes formulating dumb personal attacks that no one cares about anyways; it all ends up the same; glad I could be of assistance) Love, WPZ

Man, listening to Pat talk makes me feel better. He's so much better than Len it's not even fair. I wish Pat would do TV.

WPZ? Why are you going around smelling people's shit? ~grin~

Agreed, listening to Pat is a guaranteed way to make me feel better. I thought these CDs were DVD cds, but no, they seem to be Audio CDs. Too bad, I wish I could see some Live Harry Action.

#75/76, I just wish there was something more exciting than Rod Barajas to the Jays today.

sure looks like somebody woke up on the wrong side of the dugout today... somewhere further up the thread, the idea of swapping felix pie for a starter surfaced. my 2 virtual cents vote "no", for two non-quantifiable and emotional reasons: 1. pie is the only position player the cubs have who is on the cusp of being major league ready; that type of salary relief is vital with lee/aram/soriano/z on the books and 2. with the (apparent) logjam in the bullpen in a marketplace that is woefully thin, hendry ought to be able to spin some of those arms into one or more starters. i still have expectations that the cubs and whitesox will make a trade along those lines, with a starter heading to the nl and a couple of relievers heading to the cell. makes too much sense for both clubs; isn't that the goal of a trade?

makes sense to me, DC! There's also the Corey factor: We botched up Corey I, I'd rather see us hang on to Corey II and Corey III (pie and E. patt.) and see them blossom as Cubs. I wonder if I wrote a flattering review of Pat Hughes' CD, if he'd stop by and answer some questions: would help him hawk his CD, and would give us a neat treat at TCR...

Pretty good idea Trans, I bet he'd do it.

just have to figure out how to contact him....

First question to Pat- How do you restrain yourself from slapping Santo everyonce in awhile? DC- I was using Pie because he is the Cubs most valuable chip. I believe this team has about a two-three year window to win it. Now if Pie can not help by them they should move him for a good starting pitching. But I do know what you mean.

Re: The contract the Astros just handed Lee, in conjunction with the Pierre and Matthews contracts, is beginning to make that Soriano deal almost sort of look like something kind of reasonable. I agree 100% and actually posted a similar comment on the TSN boards: I agree that Pierre and Lil' Sarge both appear to have made off like bandits. These deals, as well as the others, make me wonder what a player who was valued at 4M/yr a few years ago is worth in today's baseball market. When decent players who aren't really difference makers are worth this kind of money, the amounts the Cubs handed to Soriano, Ramirez, and even DeRosa seem fiscally responsible. And as a Cub fan I was initially worried that they would come off as desperate rather than aggressive. Not that we aren't. I know MLB and the union had a quick re-up this year. I have to imagine that the dollars are known to be there, and a good part of that money should go to the players. But that doesn't make these deals make sense from the perspective we, the fans, are accustomed to. Is there a new league minimum of 2M/yr? Last year the minimum was 327,000.

"People who challenge my use of ad hominem attacks are mommy-loving terrorist morons." Dammit Trans, you are an academic. You should know better than to plagiarize! Ad homonym attacks is my specialty. "Re #102: Ah yes, the use of one isolated example to prove a point. If you can throw in an ad hominem attack, I'd say you've hit the trifecta of shoddy arguing techniques. Posted by: Christian at September 17, 2004 01:32 PM Re 105: Sabermetrics should be ignored as a fallacy. It was invented by Billy Beane in order to sell books and to sell a city on why they can't win. The man is a liar and a cheat and should be ignored. Win Place Show Posted by: Chad at September 17, 2004 02:33 PM"

Interesting interview w/ Steve Stone discussing Alfonso Soriano on WSCR, Boers & Bernstein last Wednesday 11/22/06. Click Here for mp3 File

Brewers get Johnny Estrada, Claudio Vargas, Greg Aquino, DBacks get Doug Davis + prospects. Estrada > Miller but I'm glad to see Doug Davis out of the Central!

There was just a multiplayer deal between Milwaukee and Arizona. http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.js... Milwaukee received former All-Star catcher Johnny Estrada, right-handed starter Claudio Vargas and right-handed reliever Greg Aquino for steady left-handed starter Doug Davis and a pair of prospects, lefty Dana Eveland and outfielder David Krynzel.

Aquino to setup, Turnbow AAA?

re: Ryno per Stoney's interview 'Cubs will make the World Series w/in 2 years....' 'Can't guarantee they will win it, we've seem the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th best teams win it in a seven game series. The best team does not always win.' Nice dig at the Cardinals Steve!!!!

I liked what Stoney said about Soriano in the leadoff spot. It's true, Alfonso struggles with the breaking pitches, so keeping him where he hits more fastballs does make more sense. In that light it almost seems like he's more likely to hit 40 HRs leading off than hitting fourth or fifth. The last time Arizona and Milwaukee traded the Phoenix U-Haul ran out of trucks. I think Arizona did better in this deal. Milwuakee got some nice pieces but Doug Davis is underrated and will do well in the West.

Are any of those prospects any promising? I'm glad Davis is out of the division. Brewers got some decent arms but Estrada isn't anything special.

Soriano wants to play winter ball and says he will play 2b if the Cubs want. http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sport...

That sounds like a dumb trade by the Brewers, unless it was a salary dump of Davis. I'm not sure what he was scheduled to make but he is a decent pitcher who always is hard on the Cubs. Estrada is nothing special and the Brewers have that stud hitting young catcher who is ready to play.

wow...brews cashed in on davis...still, davis is a nice arm. aquino and vargas...nice. estrada...meh. jason kendall-lite (pre-power outtage).

oh...brews gave up krynzel, too..looks like they're tired of waiting on him. arz. dont need him, though.

Glad to see Davis leave the Brew Crew. Now lets hope someone blows Melvin away and can pry Capuano away from the Brewers. When he takes the mound against the Cubs, it's pretty much a guaranteed loss. It would have been great if the Cubs could have traded for Davis, but Melvin is a pretty shrewd GM and probably would be opposed to helping the Cubs out, even if it meant helping himself out in the process. Littlefield, on the other hand... As for trading JJ, it makes little sense unless the Cubs think they have a shot at JD Drew or plan on calling Pie up. I agree with a lot of the posters who say that if a batter can hit LHP and RHP, it doesn't really matter. It would still be nice to have a lefty in there, but it's not essential for guys like Lee, Murton, and Ramirez. So, IMO, trading Jones really only makes sense if you can put in a far better option (which, for 125 games out of the year, Drew would be; Pagan would probably fill in for all of the hangnails that force Drew on the bench) or if you want to save money while filling another hole (in which case Pie, who would provide great defense and could hit at the bottom of the order, would make sense) like SP. I think we could probably get Greinke for JJ+ young pitching prospect (Guzman? Ryu?), and I'm pretty sure we could get Maholm or Duke from Pittsburgh for Jones straight-up (Dave Littlefield's favorite charity is the Chicago Cubs). If the Cubs can't get a good young SP for Jones, why trade a serviceable outfielder who provides power and, at worst, can be platooned with a righty off the bench (i.e. shift DeRosa to RF and put Theriot in at 2B against LHSP) and has a relatively affordable contract?

On the Soriano deal-- In years 7 & 8, let's assume Soriano is a .275 hitter who can still hit 30 HR, play a decent LF and still has a strong throwing arm. Obviously, he is not likely to still be a base stealing threat. What do you think the "market value" of such a player will be in 2014 and 2015? If salaries continue to inflate at their recent trends, Soriano may be a reasonable value then. If salaries grow 10% annually, Soriano's $17MM deal in year 7 and 8 will be worth about $8MM-$9MM in today's dollars. Not all that bad in terms of value. Also -- crap teams, who play in cold weather and in outdated facilities, need to overpay to get high quality players, unless those players already feel a strong tie to Chicago (A-Ram, Woody). How could it possibly be otherwise??

Wow, the aftermath of Black Friday sure gets people pissy.

Wow, the aftermath of Black Friday sure gets people pissy.

"arz. dont need him, though." Word is that Krynzel wants/has to become a super utility man. Don't remember who I heard it from, though.

As an Astros fan (who lives on the North Side, incidentally): He may be chubby, with bad projections for the future, but the guy can mash. It's an over-paying year, and I'm sure glad that we did, because I watched Houston struggle to hit a ball out of the infield like they were eight Ronny Cedenos and one Berkman. It's easy to get angry at a massive deal, but it's worse when nothing happens at all. And let's hope it's time to say that Stros GM Tim Purpura knows what he's doing.

from the AP...soriano wants to play winterball "I'm going to ask permission to play for the Eastern Stars when I get back to Chicago for the press conference where they're going to introduce me next week," the slugger told The Associated Press on Friday after arriving in the Caribbean country.

We went through this a year ago when our most valuble player wanted to DH in the WBC. This sort of potential injury risk puts my sack in my throught, but on the other hand, at least he's not taking Scott Eyre or Glendon Rusch's approach when it comes to acting out what it means to be a Cub. The son wants to be ready to earn his keep. Barring horrific injury, a kidnapping, or improper alignment of the stars, he wants to use a winterball experience to his advantage. This drive to excel is well beyond what we'd expect out of a man that would command this sort of contract. He must have been inspired by Jim Hendry's passion for winning. Mince me.

"And let's hope it's time to say that Stros GM Tim Purpura knows what he's doing." It's not. About an hour after he signed Lee, he follows it up with Woody Williams. Sorry, I don't think it's time to say he knows what he's doing.

Alamo: Well, at lest Purpura hasn't completely lost his marbles like some GM's...Stoneman, I'm looking at you, buddy...

"like they were eight Ronny Cedenos" Hey, you have an in-house example. Adam Everett, anyone?

"Whatís your early vote for the most ridiculous contract this off-season?" ""I think the Matthews deal is the worst of the contracts by far. Followed by Pierre's and Soriano's." "Neal: How long have you been a Cub fan? How many games a year do you go to?" Sorry to answer the question, E-Man.

"'like they were eight Ronny Cedenos' Hey, you have an in-house example. Adam Everett, anyone?" Point well-taken, just figured I'd speak the native language. On another note, it's good to see a big money player in Soriano take things back to the old school and play winter ball (or to try, anyway). Things have gotten too fragile. Injuries can happen anywhere (read Kent, J. and Alou, M.), by which I mean position player injuries, with the obvious exception being over-pitching. If you want a player to be great, you've got to want him to challenge himself year-round, and to do the same things that he did as a rookie in order to get to the Big Leagues in the first place.

"What do you think the "market value" of such a player will be in 2014 and 2015?" I believe the Vegas Pitbosses of the AL West-Central may want him, but you can never tell what the owner of the National League Tokyo Godzillas may have up his sleeve. Alamosweet, better get Lee a first baseman's mitt in a hurry, or hope the Astros are moved to the AL. Like the Woody Williams signing though, from a Cubs fan pov.

"BAD" Contracts. The below is from the Tampa meetings: We at ESPN.com surveyed 20 general managers, assistant GMs, and assorted scouts and personnel people for their takes on six hot stove questions of interest. Here's how they responded: If you asked this question in the spring, when Soriano was a man without a position and Lee was fresh off a 30-homer, 100-RBI season in Milwaukee, the vote might have been closer. Judging from our poll, Soriano helped his cause significantly in 2006, while Lee raised a few questions. Soriano made positive strides in the outfield after his initial resistance and became the fourth player in history to hit 40 homers and steal 40 bases in a season. It remains to be seen whether he'll sign a Carlos Beltran-type deal, but teams love his athleticism, energy, and rare blend of power and speed. "Even if he doesn't hit a homer, he can find a way to get in scoring position," a Soriano booster said. "He can score from first on a double. Carlos Lee is a great hitter, but he's a liability defensively and he clogs up the bases." Lee turned down a four-year, $48 million contract offer from Milwaukee in July, and the Brewers sent him to Texas at the deadline. Lee finished with a .300 batting average, 37 homers, 116 RBI and a .540 slugging percentage, but doubts remain about his poor defense and his dietary habits. Lee has never struck out 100 times and has decent plate discipline. His biggest shortcoming is a lack of dinner plate discipline. The buzz is that he surpassed 270 pounds last season, and baseball people wonder: If he got that big with a huge payday at stake, how much of a wide-body could he be halfway through a five-year deal? Even some of the compliments directed toward Lee weren't particularly flattering. "He has surprising speed for a big, fat guy," an NL scout said.

C. Lee is a base-clogger, lol.... Dusty strikes again.

Brewers-Cubs trade...basically a move to get cheap starting pitching down the road for teh Brewers...Davis was heading into his last year of club control, but the Brewers get three years of Claudio Vargas...Krynzel is at best a #4 OF/defensive guy, not worth much...Eveland could turn into a 4/5 starter or decent bullpen guy but has thusfar been an AAAA guy.

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  • Cubster 2 days 15 hours ago (view)

    Lefty Matz to Cardinals. 4/44. 


  • Arizona Phil 3 days 1 hour ago (view)

    With the CBA expiring on December 1st, MLB owners and the MLBPA have jointly agreed to move the contract tender date up from Thursday December 2nd to Tuesday November 30th (that's a week from today). 

    Then (presumably) the lock-out will start the next day (Wednesday). 


  • Arizona Phil 3 days 3 hours ago (view)

    Not that TJS is ever necessarily a good thing, but taking a year off from catching could give Miguel Amaya a chance to work on his hitting.

    His glove & arm were probably a year ahead of his bat coming into 2021, so once he gets going again hopefully he will be able to spend a significant part of his rehab working in the cages. 

    Also, although he won't be able to throw for a while, he should be able to work on his receiving during the summer, once he is cleared to resume non-throwing baseball activities.  


  • Arizona Phil 3 days 3 hours ago (view)

    CUBSTER: Unless you consider Erick Castillo and Tyler Payne as legit contenders to be the Cubs back-up catcher in 2022, the Cubs have no catcher who is projected to eventually play in MLB anywhere near MLB ready.


  • Cubster 3 days 3 hours ago (view)

    With Amaya's 2022 year as a catcher essentially an non-factor and Robinson Chirinos and Austin Romaine again free agents, It looks like any rumors of moving Willson Contreras will go quiet. At least Chirinos could hit (for a backup catcher). 


  • Arizona Phil 3 days 3 hours ago (view)

    The Cubs have released LHP Chris Allen, 1B Shendrik Apostel, INF Matt Burch, INF Widimer Joaquin, RHP Garrett Kelly, RHP Marco Prieto,  RHP Jorge Remon, RHP Dawel Rodriguez, and OF Vance Vizcaino, so the off-season Cubs Minor League Domestic Reserve List is now at 169 (21 slots are open).  

    Six of the nine players who were released (Allen, Apostel, Joaquin, Kelly, Remon, and Vizcaino) were Rule 5 Draft-eligible, and all six had been left off the Iowa Reserve List when rosters were filed last Friday. 


  • Cubster 3 days 4 hours ago (view)

    sorry, posted in other thread.


  • Arizona Phil 3 days 4 hours ago (view)

    Also, Justin Steele gets a 4th minor league option in 2022 (must be used in 2022). 


  • Arizona Phil 3 days 5 hours ago (view)

    W-RAT: Of all the TJS rehab types, a catcher TJS rehab is probably most similar to a pitcher's because of the laser pinpoint rifle throws a catcher needs to make to 2nd base.

    So I would expect Amaya will be able to DH by mid-season (hitting shouldn't be a problem by then), and then (hopefully) be able to throw normally in games (as a catcher) at post-season Instructs and then maybe in the AFL, with 2023 Spring Training being when he should be 100%. 


  • Arizona Phil 3 days 6 hours ago (view)

    TIM: Yes, except a position player only gets a maximum of 20 days on a minor league injury rehab assignment, so the 30 extra days allowed for a position player rehabbing from TJS would mean a maximum of 50 days, whereas it would be a maximum of 60 days for a pitcher (the original 30 days that pitchers get plus the additional 30 days in the form of three 10-day increments). And this also only applies to players on an MLB IL. 


  • Arizona Phil 3 days 6 hours ago (view)

    DSJ: Exactly. Even though he was just acquired in a trade, the Cubs still might opt to non-tender Ramirez on 12/2, that is, as long as he goes along with the plan. I doubt that the Cubs would non-tender him if he declines (in advance) to sign a 2022 minor league contract.  


  • crunch 3 days 8 hours ago (view)

    well...that's one hell of a forearm strain.


  • tim815 3 days 9 hours ago (view)

    Arizona Phil. Would Amaya, as a catcher, be eligible for the TJS exemption?


  • crunch 3 days 10 hours ago (view)

    w.franco (rays) extend 11y/185m

    not bad for a guy with 1/10th of a season service time.


  • Wrigley Rat 3 days 10 hours ago (view)

    Miguel Amaya to have Tommy John surgery. Will likely miss most of next season. (I speculate that he could maybe DH a bit in the second half and throw towards August.)


  • Dolorous Jon Lester 3 days 15 hours ago (view)

    When you add in the arb-eligibility, that's gotta make Ramirez a real contender for Hermosillo's "non-tender poster boy" title