Cubs Trade Mark DeRosa

Submitted by Rob G. on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 12:30pm

Bruce Levine of ESPN1000 is reporting that the Cubs have traded Mark DeRosa and the $5.5M on his contract for 2009 to the Cleveland Indians for three minor-leaguers, RHP , LHP and RHP .

You have to think a trade, let's say for a certain pitcher from San Diego whom I dare not speak his name, is possibly forthcoming.

I'll try and get some info on the prospects in a bit.

UPDATE #1: Link , although I think they have a typo on John "Caub".

UPDATE #2: I poked around a bit and none of the three prospects showed up on Indians' prospect list or . In other words, this deal only makes sense if they're all headed to another city, let's call it San Diego, to give them the quantity of pitchers and players that they wanted in that trade for that certain pitcher, whom we'll refer to as J.P.

Scouting reports and biographies that I could piece together on the prospects after the jump....

Jeff Stevens was drafted in the 6th round by the Cincinnati Reds in 2005 out of Loyola Marymount University. A year later he was traded to the Indians as part of the Brandon Phillips trade. He pitched for Team USA in the 2008 Olympics as well. He features a 92-93 mph fastball that can get up to 95mph, an above-average curve and has been working on a slider. He spent most of the 2008 season . The 25-year old is certainly the best of the three players the Cubs are getting back.

23-year old John Gaub was a 21st round selection by the Indians in 2006 out of the University of Minnesota and had an incredible 14.06 K/9 rate in A-ball last year, even if he was a bit old for the league. He was considered a flamethrower in college, but had his which in turn resulted in a loss in velocity. He seems to be getting it back up to the mid 90's on occasion but usually settles in the low 90's with a decent slider and a change-up as well.

20-year old Chris Archer was a teammate of John Gaub at Lake County last season and although he had a healthy 8.27 K/9 rate last season, he walked an incredible 84 batters in 115.1 IP.  The 5th-round pick out of high school in 2006 throws in the low 90's with

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Comments

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 12:45pm  
Angels sign Brian Fuentes btw...

Submitted by The Real Neal  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 12:46pm  
Pretty nice K rates on Stevens and the Gobster. The Gobster was probably two years two old for his league, though.

Submitted by Chifan  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:10pm  
Gaub was a college kid so that is why he was there, If he pitches well at Daytona (if he stays) to starts the season a promotion to AA By June is not out of the question.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 12:54pm  
fwiw, none of them were top 10 BA prospects this year... http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospect...

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 12:56pm  

or top 20 Sickels prospects, although Stevens gets mentioned a few times by the commenters...

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/12/29/704...

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 12:58pm  
So SD just wants any old shitty pitching prospects? We already had those. Damn, DeRosa just has to be more valuable...doesn't he?

Submitted by 10man  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:01pm  
Maybe Rob forgot to mention that the Indians threw in the entire island of Manhattan and most of the northeast in the deal?

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:07pm  
I know this trade has already been made...but maybe we can take it back.

Submitted by Dr. aaron b  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:44pm  
Damn you Mark DeRosa and your Non-Lefthandedness!!!

Submitted by Little Nate Lewis  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 12:55pm  
Any announcement of a Hendry press conference after all of this?

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 12:57pm  

probably wouldn't do it until they sign Bradley...and if they are indeed still going for Peavy, might just do it all together.

I'm sure he'll be on the radio though soon enough.

Submitted by Old and Blue  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 12:55pm  
If the Cubs can just find 12 or 13 more prospects maybe they'll actually pick up Peavy.

Submitted by 10man  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 12:58pm  
For all of those who thought that Hendry was doing nothing because you couldn't see or hear anything, all I have to say is that you just have to be patient. Have a good start to the upcoming year everyone!

Submitted by Cubnut  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:04pm  

DeRo will be playing third base for the Indians.

http://tinyurl.com/7lpq6b 

Submitted by Chifan  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:05pm  
MILB pages for the players: Gaub: http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats... He is 23 (4/22/85) and at Low A last year and had a line a line of 34 IP, 3.38 ERA, 2 saves, 100/32 K/BB ratio, 3 HR allowed, .195 BAA, and a .74 GO/AO ratio. Stevens: http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats... He is 25 (9/5/83) bounced around AA and AAA with a line of 5-4, 58.1 IP, 3.24 ERA, 6 saves, 81/27 K/BB, 5 HR allowed, .184 BAA, .86 GB/AO Archer: http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats... He is 20 (9/26/88) and was at Low A and his line of 115.1 IP, 27 starts, 4-8, 106/84 K/BB, 8 HR allowed, 1.65 GO/AO ratio, and .220 BAA. I really can not see how this exicites Towers into trading Peavy. None of these guys are top 20 prospect material at this point. If the only reason this trade was to fit team killer Milton Bradley under payroll, then I will be upset.

Submitted by The Real Neal  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:11pm  
Gaub had 100 K's in 34 innings? That's got to be some kind of record. Stevens could probably pitch in Petco right now. I would guess that Archer is a key part for the Peavy trade just based on his age and that he's a starter.

Submitted by Cubnut  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:29pm  
I believe it was 64 IP.

Submitted by Chifan  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:30pm  
mixed up games and iniings, he had 64 IP.

Submitted by Transmission  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:05pm  
Yeah, this and Miles only makes sense if we assume there's something bigger coming..... Will miss ya, Mark.

Submitted by Cubster  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:05pm  
the Indians threw in the entire island of Manhattan ---------------- Hopefully Kerry/Mark will wear the beads they got in this transaction.

Submitted by 10man  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 11:27pm  
thanks, doc. i'm glad someone's alive who actually remembers that trade.

Submitted by komondor  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:07pm  
A freshly baked cake is on the stove cooling. Now the frosting? Could Ronnie Cedeno be a memory too, moved onto SD?

Submitted by Arizona Phil  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:10pm  

If they're not moved in a later deal, Jeff Stevens would probably project as the RHP set-up man at Iowa in 2009 with a possible 2009 call-up at some point, John Gaub would project as a lefty set-up man at Daytona, and RHP Chris Archer would project as a rotation starter at Daytona.

As has been mentioned by Rob G, none of the three are anything close to "hot shot" prospects, although Stevens apparently showed enough promise at AAA Buffalo in 2008 to get a slot on the Indians 40-man roster last month.

While the three pitchers aren't total stiffs, the trade does look like it was basically a salary dump to clear some payroll for Bradley and Peavy. Of the three, I would think only Stevens would be of interest to the Padres in a possible Jake Peavy deal.   

Submitted by Andrew  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:26pm  
This is a gamble and one that I'm not sure I like altogether, but if it allows us to get Bradley and Peavy without giving up, say, Vitters, then it's an improvement to the club, next year and in the future. Of course, Towers could continue to be the incompetent dick that he is and fuck this up, but one would think Hendry knew which players on the Indians and Rockies he liked. We'll see.

Submitted by The Real Neal  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:31pm  
If those two deals do go through, this team is starting to seem a lot like the 2004 version.

Submitted by komondor  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:29pm  
Could we get JP for a cheap middle infielder, mid level pitching prospects and Marshall? None of the Cubs top arms would go for this cheap. Best deal JH has never made!

Submitted by Thisistheyear  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:34pm  
I assume by cheap middle infielder you mean Cedeno, but you also have to include losing DeRo if JH ships all or at least 2 of the prospects to SD.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:30pm  

Final update on the post with what I can put together on their scouting reports and repertoire...

you're welcome :)

feel free to add to the post if you have anything on them AZ Phil...

Submitted by Arizona Phil  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:42pm  

Some old BA scouting reports on the three pitchers the Cubs got frrom Cleveland...

1. Jeff Stevens pitched at Loyola Marymount and was described as having a "deceptive" 90-91 MPH sinking fastball with an "improved" breaking ball and good command and competitiveness at that time. He was drafted in the 6th round of the 2005 draft by the Cincinnati Reds but was the PTBNL in the Brandon Phillips deal, so he's been traded before. He was moved from the starting rotation to the bullpen after he turned pro, and he has really improved his fastball since making the move. He now throws consistently 92-94 MPH with an occasional 96, and he was the closer for Team USA at the World Cup in Taiwan in November 2007.He also throws a slow curve, a cutter, and a slider.

2. John Gaub threw a 96 MPH fastball with a sharp curve and plus change-up as a sophomore at the U. of Minnesota and was one of the top pitching prospects in the Big Ten hoing into the 2005 season, but then he had shoulder surgery (torn labrum)  and had a significant loss of velocity on his fastball and break on his curve when he tried to came back in 2006. He was selected by Cleveland in the 21st round of the 2006 draft, and was signed in August for "5th round money" (he actually got a higher bonus than Chris Archer got as the Indians' 2006 5th round pick). He had additional shoulder surgery post-2006 and so he did not make his pro debut until August 2007, and then he began last season rehabbing at EXST, but he is supposedly finally healthy now. He developed a low release angle to compensate for his shoulder injury.     

3. Chris Archer was a highly regarded HS pitcher in North Carolina (he probably knows Mitch Atkins) who reneged on an oral commitment to homestate NC State before signing an NLI to attend Miami (Florida). But the Indians offered him $155K to forget college and he took it. Archer threw a 90-92 four-seam fastball at that time, but his breaking ball was supposed to be his "out" pitch. He has had command problems throughout his career, but his hammer-curve was rated the best in the Indians system, and his fastball has also shown improvement (he now throws 92-94), although it has only minimal movement.

Submitted by TJ  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:49pm  
I'm afraid that this trade isn't getting prospects to trade for Peavy. We are fooling ourselves if we think that. This is the result of an owner's parent in bankruptcy and the team being sold. It's creating budget room for Bradley, end of story. Bradley will be a mistake. He has only played in over 100 games 3 times in a 9 year career. Abreau has played in over 150 games 12 staight years. The answer is simple - Abreau.

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:50pm  
"The answer is simple - Abreau." Is the question in French? But, if this is all that DeRosa is worth...I'd rather keep him.

Submitted by Chad  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:53pm  
I think that would have to be Abreaux. (Still not back at home. Don't worry, regular posting to resume tomorrow.)

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:56pm  
No, it really wouldn't. See: Beau, Eau, etc.

Submitted by Chad  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:58pm  
wow, you're cranky today.

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:01pm  
Am I? Wasn't meaning to be...sorry it sounded that way. [EDIT] But that does remind me to take my pills...I'll go do that.

Submitted by 10man  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 11:32pm  
"Abreaux" we're getting more than one of him?

Submitted by Timmer  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:04pm  
If the Cubs signed both Bobby and Winston Abreu, then you could see this headline: "Cubs sign Abreux."

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:05pm  
Now that is funny.

Submitted by Mister Whipple  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 7:19pm  
That reminds me to go take your pills.

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 7:32pm  
That's also funny. Hmm. Maybe the pills do work. But come one, who doesn't like French language jokes?

Submitted by dB  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 9:40pm  
any time spent on a dig at the French is quality. For instance a French classified newspaper ad: WW2 military issued rifle. Never fired, dropped once. Nothing beats the timeliness of a WW2 joke.

Submitted by Mister Whipple  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 10:45pm  
Bonjooooooooour you cheese eatin' surrender monkeys!!!

Submitted by Seamhead  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:50pm  
If the Cubs go ahead and acquire Peavy ($11 million) for prospects and sign Bradley for an estimated $10 million, then the 25-man team payroll projects to over $146 million. Which strongly suggests that either Vizcaino will be flipped or that other salary will be moved.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:50pm  
AZ Phil updated the payroll sidebar fwiw, although w/o the Marquis deal since it isn't official yet. Projecting the auto-renewals and arbitration he has the payroll at $135M at the moment and if the Marquis deal goes through, it's $130M. Someone said $140M yesterday for the entire 40-man, but earlier it was a 10% boost off of $130M from last year which is $143M. That being said, there's no way to fit both Peavy and Bradley into that, unless Bradley's contract is severely backloaded.

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:52pm  
Severely backloaded...isn't that how Hendry rolls?

Submitted by The Real Neal  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:54pm  
It's all the doughnuts.

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:56pm  
I was expecting a cinnamon roll joke, but I'll take it.

Submitted by 10man  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 11:37pm  
Hendry definitely likes to deal his load to the back.

Submitted by spongebob  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:52pm  
Callis on today's ESPN Chat: PERSON 1: Any idea what the Cubs may or may not be doing with these pitchers they just got from Cleveland for DeRosa? Jim Callis: (2:10 PM ET ) The Cubs just flipped DeRosa for Jeff Stevens, John Gaub and Chris Archer. This looks like the prelude to another deal, possibly for Jake Peavy. They're on the verge of dealing Jason Marquis to the Rockies, clearing his salary, something else they wanted to do before getting Peavy. My guess is some or all of those pitchers go to San Diego with Josh Vitters and others (Kevin Hart?) for Peavy. They're about to sign (it may be official) Aaron Miles to fill in at second base, too. PERSON 2: Mr callis of the 3 guys the cubs got back in return from Cleveland in the Derosa trade not one of them was ranked on HQ's or Sickels list of Indian prospects and on top of that none of them even got honorable mentioned.. so who are they? Jim Callis: (2:39 PM ET ) That's why you need to buy the Prospect Handbook--Jeff Stevens is No. 19 and John Gaub is No. 29 on our Top 30, so you can read all about them there. Stevens is a big-league ready reliever with a plus fastball and deceptive delivery. Gaub is a low-90s lefty who would have been an early pick in the 2006 draft had he not been hurt at Minnesota. Archer was a fifth-round pick in 2006, who has a good arm but is still raw. ------ Not bad value for DeRosa...if this really does turn into Peavy it's a great deal! Go for it all 2009!

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 1:56pm  
not that I buy these quotes, but TJ in comment #28 might be on to something... "We are thrilled to acquire three strong, young arms in Jeff Stevens, John Gaub and Chris Archer," said Cubs General Manager Jim Hendry. "They are significant additions to our system and have received universally high marks from our scouts, notably Stan Zielinski. "It's never easy to say goodbye to a quality player and person like Mark DeRosa," Hendry continued. "He was a major contributor to our success the last two seasons. But today represents a prime opportunity to stock our organization with three pitching prospects, to modify the balance and shape of our major league roster and to give our rising talent a chance to contribute more regularly at the major league level." http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/press_releas...

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:04pm  
I don't buy it, personally. He's not going to trade for these guys then immediately say they're on their way out. But, it's also possible, that they're here to replace guys in the Cubs system who are going to be traded.

Submitted by Dr. aaron b  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:00pm  
It's all about Lou's love of Handedness. Miles bats Lefty(switch) and Derosa didn't. Hendry is up against it finacially. So this is clearing space to backload a deal for Bradley or Abreu. I will be shocked if Peavy is a cub before a sale. It reeks of Brian Roberts "smokescreen" that Hendry did all last offseason to distract fans. Especially when we look at the other big market teams shelling out big bucks. I see the quote heading into spring training now. "We think we have really improved ourselves. We obviously looked at some other guys and made really strong efforts to get them. Ultimately we decided that the cost was a little too high."

Submitted by dB  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:43pm  
The lineup does need balance but I don't like it that it comes from dealing away a strength in DeRosa's production & versatility. I would have preferred to keep DeRo and free up money for a RFer by not signing Dempster especially if the Cubs do land Peavy. Pie could have been dealt to the O's for Olson to use in the Peavy trade so Marshall would be a solid cheap #5 SP.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:02pm  
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com... (emphasis added) The Cubs acquired three pitching prospects from the Indians for DeRosa -- left-hander John Stevens, who was added to the 40-man roster, lefty John Gaub and right-hander Chris Archer. Stevens, 25, went 5-4 with a 3.24 ERA in 2008 in Double-A Akron and Triple-A Buffalo, with a .184 batting average against. He averaged 12.5 strikeouts per nine innings, and had a 3:1 strikeouts-to-walks ratio. If the Cubs don’t sent him to San Diego, he’ll get a chance to compete for a middle relief spot this spring as the second lefty behind Neal Cotts. Jeff Stevens...righty.

Submitted by 10man  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 11:42pm  
I always though Sullivan was disleftsick. that proves it.

Submitted by tem99  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:05pm  
The way I see this trade, the good: Frees up payroll, allows Fontenot to start at 2b. I might be in the minority, but I think Fontenot will produce around the same as Dero offensively in '09 at a fraction of the cost. the bad: Derosa was traded at probably the height of his value but i'm surprised that Hendry didn't get more, I would think Minnesota would have heavy interest. We will mess derosa's positional flexibility. Long story short, if this allows the cubs to sign only Bradley, I'm just ok with it due to Bradley's fragility. But if this allows the cubs to trade for Peavy too than it's a very good deal.

Submitted by Tito  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:07pm  
If the Cubs get Peavy and Bradley, having lost Wood, DeRosa, Marquis and whomever might go in the Peavy deal, are they a better tream? Tough to see that right now, but maybe it's just because I really like DeRosa. Have dealt with him a number of times and was always very approachable and professional. I loved what he brought to the team on the field also.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:14pm  

in terms of talent, I think it's a better team...the question is what talent will be on the field.

assuming a healthy rotation of Peavy, Zambrano, Harden, Dempster and Lilly...well that's just fuckin ridiculous. It's also fuckin ridiculous to assume they'll be healthy.

Offensively...

we replace Edmonds/Johnson CF platoon, Fukudome in RF and DeRosa at 2B with most likely Fukudome/Johnson CF platoon, Bradley in RF and Fontenot at 2B.

DeRosa to Fontenot is likely going to be a downgrade from 2008, but essentially replacing Edmonds with Bradley is probably a bit of gain, even though Edmonds had a helluva season. You'll also be limiting Fukudome's at-bats.

if there's no Peavy, it's essentially a lateral move to get more left-handed. If they do get Peavy, it's definitely an upgrade, although the bullpen will be worrisome with just one reliable arm in my opinion.

Submitted by The Real Neal  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:15pm  
cookies?

Submitted by The E-Man  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:33pm  
For once - JH traded high on someone. Woot! DeRosa will be missed except in the Playoffs - if the team makes it - where he undoubtedly was a big disappointment to me personally. His DP with the bases loaded in Game 1, while I was sitting there knowing it was wait 'til next year, ranks up there with Cubs chokes in crucial moments. Not as big as A-Gon, but when coupled with his errors in THIS years' playoffs - lets try a new hand. Without Peavy, it may be a lateral move with more LH opportunity, as you say. "We are thrilled to acquire three strong, young arms in Jeff Stevens, John Gaub and Chris Archer," said Cubs General Manager Jim Hendry. "They are significant additions to our system and have received universally high marks from our scouts, notably Stan Zielinski." If we hang on to the above pitchers - we get some nice inventory for other things down the road.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:39pm  

pretty sure that DP was in Game 3 in 2007...

on another note, I always feel dirty writing DP

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:54pm  
Yeah, but remember when he hit into that DVDA?

Submitted by Tito  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:45pm  
DeRosa's one of the only Cubs who've hit in both the past two postseasons (.333 both times, drove in four of the six Cubs runs in '08). Yeah, the DP (that's for you Rob) in Game 3 hurt, as did his error in the Game 2 '08 debacle. Still....sorry he's gone.

Submitted by komondor  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:09pm  
JP and MB for a bag of baseballs, some chalk and a glove, and all done under tight financial constraints. Could we ever knock JH again? GM of the year? He's that genius, I hope.

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:11pm  
I'm confused about random baseball equipment analogy. He's losing Wood, Marquis, and DeRosa, plus some of our best 'prospects' in these deals (that haven't happened yet)...they are and were all valuable.

Submitted by champsummers  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:30pm  
I'm confused about the reference to "a bag of baseballs" but no mention of Simoniz.

Submitted by Dr. aaron b  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:08pm  
or the used infield rake

Submitted by komondor  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:34pm  
Sorry, I'm thinking we are maybe getting ready to make a great deal. Wood was gone already, due in part to the market. Marquis is, and will remain, painful to watch. DeRose is a nice piece but you have to give up something to get something. JP for Marshall, Cedeno or Theriot and prospects is cheap and all under $143 million. Cubs advance in the playoffs. My hat will be off to JH, koolaid raised in toast!

Submitted by champsummers  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:55pm  
I think that some of the concern is that many of us expected higher return for DeRosa, -I certainly did. To use your expression, in this case we really did not get much of anything for our something. -and I was certain that draft picks would be forthcoming for losing Wood. With regard to Marquis, as a 4 or 5, I really didnt think he was that painful to watch. (no more than Z in his "ace" role). If we ultimately get Peavy, I agree Hendry is a god; We can all make Marquis jokes, and nobody will worry about the DeRosa return. It may be a different story if we dont.

Submitted by Timmer  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:09pm  
many of us expected higher return for DeRosa That DeRosa has only 1 year left on his contract is a big factor in why Hendry didn't/couldn't get more.

Submitted by champsummers  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:27pm  
Fair point. What I was trying to illustrate is that in our attempt to aquire Peavy we have already given up Wood, Marquis and Derosa. (well, we now have Gathright, Gregg and Miles, but you get the idea). He's giving up a bunch.

Submitted by 10man  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 11:54pm  
letting go of Wood has nothing to do with acquiring Peavy. Hendry was not going to sign him at $10M/year with or without Peavy.

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:55pm  
You can't talk about payroll restraints and mention the Bradley signing without taking into account the loss of Wood for budget reasons.

Submitted by Seamhead  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:41pm  
If the Padres deal Peavey, they will be down to essentially two competent ML starters. That suggests that, at a minimum, someone like Hart has to be part of any Peavy deal, to ensure that they at least have a warm body to pitch every 5th day. They need cheap, ML-ready pitching far more than they need Pie and Cedeno.

Submitted by Cubster  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 2:59pm  
also the bench is significantly changing... Assuming 12 pitchers, 8 starters with Fukudome, Edmonds in the OF. 2008: (LH) Fontenot, Ward (RH) Johnson, Cedeno, Blanco ...with 11 pitchers I would have had to include one of Murton, EPat or Pie Assuming 12 pitchers, 8 starters with Fontenot at 2B, Fukudome in CF, Bradley in RF 2009 (so far): (LH) Miles, Hoffpauir, Gathright (RH) Johnson, Miles, Backup Catcher. and of course on days he doesn't pitch: Zambrano (switch) ...and assuming Cedeno is gone

Submitted by Dr. aaron b  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:17pm  
I'd feel better if we had a competent SS prospect above A ball.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:17pm  
http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/1168 says the DeRosa deal is more to make room for Bradley's contract then get Peavy. Any Peavy talks will wait until new ownership is decided upon...which someone in the comments had already touched upon. Assuming no Peavy trade is Bradley in RF and Fontenot at 2B 1) > 2) < 3) = to DeRosa in RF/Fontenot at 2b? certainly Bradley in RF/DeRosa at 2b would be best scenario, but it's at worse a lateral move imo...

Submitted by Bleeding Blue  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:28pm  
If this is not the prelude to a trade for Peavy, I'm going to be very annoyed by Hendry's moves this week. I hope I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that these are pure cost cutting moves and freeing up some payroll for Bradley. Replacing Wood with Gregg downgraded the bullpen. Replacing DeRosa with Miles/Fontenot downgrades the infield and makes the team less flexable. (and no, I'm not in the group that thinks Fontenot will be just as good as DeRosa) Getting Bradley to replace Edmunds will be an upgrade, but only if he can get beyond his track record and play every day. If he gets hurt again, and you've lost DeRosa as an option, You're going to be seeing a combination of Fuk/Reed/Pie/Gathright taking up 2 spots in the line-up really frequently. Even dumping Marquis seems a bit shortsighted. As much as everyone seems to be celebrating that he's on his way out, He was a 5th starter who you could trust to throw 200 innings every year with a ERA that was below average, but still servicable for a 5th starter. I think Marshall is a better pitcher for the #5 spot, but going out of your way to get rid of your safety net (especially when you've got Harden and Zambrano who typically miss some time), when you're not going to save much (if any) money just doesn't seem like a great decision either. I know the offseason isn't done yet, but I simply haven't seen any moves so far that make me think that the 09 Cubs will be better than 08.

Submitted by Paul Noce  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:52pm  
I'm not pleased with these moves. I understand they are trying to get left-handed hitters, but they are adding a subpar run producer in Miles and an injury prone hitter in Bradley at the expense of a solid, if not spectacular Derosa who was good for plus RBI production at 2b. I also find it comical that Dero had 10 more rbi's last season than Bradley's career high, yet we're dumping Dero's $6 mil to hand out something in the range of 2 years, $20 mil to Bradley. On an unrelated topic, compare these two half season splits from last year: Player 1 second half: .222/.253/.353 18 runs, 4 hr, 18 rbi in 180 plate appearances Player 2 second half: .217/.314/.326 20 runs, 3 hr, 22 rbi in 202 plate appearances Player 1 is our former CF, Corey Patterson Player 2 is our "new" CF, Fukudome That's scary. And Patterson makes $800k next year while Fuku gets $12 mil. If Fuku doesn't recover and contribute much more at the plate, Hendry will be trying to add another outfielder by mid-May.

Submitted by Dr. aaron b  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:53pm  
Also keep in mind. Marquis and DeRosa were the big contract to come off the books after 2009. With all the backloaded deals saddled upon the club. We might see even more cost cutting next year. Assuming that Trib continues to drag it's feet on the sale. Thank God Blogv got arrested before he could screw the cubs in the future. Whoever said that Sam Zell would be an ok franchise Steward, was dead wrong.

Submitted by The Real Neal  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 7:47am  
"Whoever said that Sam Zell would be an ok franchise Steward, was dead wrong." Isn't he the guy who's let us add $40 million to the payroll?

Submitted by carmelo  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:55pm  
Again, #1 goal in off-season was to get more LHH in line-up----now vs. a tough RHP, Lou can start 4 LHH in the line-up, Miles @SS, [email protected], Fuk in CF, and Bradley in RF------vs a tough LHP Theroit @SS, Miles @ 2B, Johnson in CF and Bradley in RF-----the problems is really during the play-offs when you know you are going to face good RHP, you need LHH---Lou stated that right after the play-offs ended---the down side of losing DeRosa is who plays 3B for 2 weeks if/when ARam goes down?---also, look for a LHH back-up catcher, either K. Hill or Bako---#2 goal in any off-season is starting pitching, so now if we can get Peavy because of these moves get it done---glad JH is working hard to improve the team

Submitted by Cubster  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:59pm  
Hendry will be on XM 175 program shortly, 4:30 pm Chicago time...Think it's rob dibble and casey stern hosting.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:03pm  

thnx for the tip...

gonna pull it up online as I'm too lazy to get my receiver from my car.

will update with anything interesting.

Submitted by Dr. aaron b  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 3:58pm  
If we get Peavy and one of the following Bradley Dunn Burrell Abreu Then this was a good move. Who would have ever guessed that backloading all these deals would eventually kill Hendry's flexiblity?

Submitted by Paul Noce  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:04pm  
Part of the problem with getting Peavy though is that his contract is also backloaded. He gets $11 mil for 2009, then it jumps up... "10:$15M, 11:$16M, 12:$17M, 13:$22M club option or ($4M buyout)" And his agent is rumored to want that option picked up to ok a trade. I like Peavy, I just wonder how much more his contract will cause us to make moves we normally wouldn't down the road because of money. http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/san-...

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:26pm  

let's see

Zambrano goes barely up to $17.875M in 2010 (17.75 in 2009) Soriano jumps $2M to $18M and stays there for the rest of his deal Ramirez goes barely up to to $15.75M (15.65M in 2008) Lee stays at $13M Lilly stays at $12M Dempsters stays at $12M (although technically he got $8M and a $4M signing bonus for 2009). Fukudome jumps to $13M from $11.5M

only a $3.75M jump...not too bad, would be if they do add Peavy. Likely to lose $7M off the books with Harden. Soto might be a Super-Two next year but likely to fall short. He should be at 2.096 after next season and if my memory serves me well, Phil says the cutoff usually ends up around 110...technically it's the top 16% of service time.

Submitted by Paul Noce  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:51pm  
And what did those players contracts add up to in 2008? The reason Wood, Derosa, and Marquis are gone is because of all the backloaded contracts. I think most Cubs fans would rather have Woodie than Kevin Gregg, and Dero over any other current 2b on the team. I understand how it works, and I'm not bitching about adding all of the high priced guys, it's refreshing for the Cubs to spend money, but these big deals handcuff teams, especially when they are so heavily backloaded. Most of the recent deals had significantly lower first two season salaries to try and pass the bulk of their contracts off on the new owner. The check has come due.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 5:05pm  

should have clarified my opinion...

Hendry and the Cubs were expecting a new owner to be already named by this point. It was suppose to be done at numerous times over 2008. I don't think it's a coincidence that the big jump in backloaded salaries came after the 2008 season. If you look at it from 2009 and beyond, they stay relatively steady.

Was Hendry expecting to get canned by now? I don't think so, I think he was expecting a new owner.

And isn't backloading contracts pretty common? I don't think this is uniquely a Hendry problem. Someone with an economics degree can explain it better, but I think with inflation, generally rising revenues and payrolls, it usually makes sense. Unfortunately once in awhile, a recession hits or Sam Zell takes over your team and you get screwed. 

I would also venture a guess that Hendry had the full approval and possible advice of one Crane Kenney on most of these deals.

Submitted by The Real Neal  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 7:50am  
Backloading contracts saves you money in NPV, and it is common, just not as common to do it as extensively as Hendry has.

Submitted by WISCGRAD  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 10:12am  
Proof? Let's see a breakdown by GM before you just assert something like that. You can find contract info here if you want to do some research: http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/

Submitted by The Real Neal  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 11:36am  
Here's an interesting idea, why don't you get off your fat ass and disprove it?

Submitted by WISCGRAD  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 1:03pm  
Here's an interesting idea, get a fucking life besides spending all of your day on here telling everyone else they are wrong and asserting that you are always right.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 1:17pm  

well happy New Year to the both of you!

let's just stop this right here and watch some hockey or college football or flowers on floats.

Submitted by WISCGRAD  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 1:15pm  
But here is just one example that illustrates it is common practice among GMs: Cleveland Indians Travis Hafner 07:$6.3M, 08:$8.05M, 09:$11.5M, 10:$11.5M, 11:$13M, 12:$13M, 13:$13M club option ($2.75M buyout) Cliff Lee 06:$0.75M, 07:$2.75M, 08:$3.75M, 09:$5.75M Victor Martinez 05:$0.5M, 06:$0.8M, 07:$3M, 08:$4.25M, 09:$5.7M, 10:$7M club option ($0.25M buyout) Grady Sizemore 06:$0.5M, 07:$0.75M, 08:$3M, 09:$4.6M, 10:$5.6M, 11:$7.5M, 12:$8.5M club option ($0.5M buyout) Jhonny Peralta 06:$0.5M, 07:$0.75M, 08:$2.25M, 09:$3.4M, 10:$4.6M, 11:$7M 2011 club option ($0.25M buyout) Rafael Betancourt 08:$2.05M, 09:$3.35M, 10:$5.4M club option Fausto Carmonoa 08:$0.5M, 09:$2.75M, 10:$4.9M, 11:$6.1M, 12:$7M club option, 13:$9M club option, 14:$12M club option

Submitted by Rob G.  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 1:19pm  
probably not the best example, as I believe most of those deals bought out those guys arbitration years and a year or two of free agency, rather than veteran contracts.

Submitted by WISCGRAD  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 1:47pm  
All Free Agent Contracts: Raul Ibanez 09:$6.5M, 10:$11.5M, 11:$11.5M Adam Eaton 07:$6.875M, 08:$7.635M, 09:$8.5M, 10:$9M Geoff Jenkins 08:$5M, 09:$6.75M, 10:$7.5M Vladimir Guerrero 04:$10M, 05:$11.5M, 06:$12.5M, 07:$13.5M, 08:$14.5M, 09:$15M Gary Mathews Jr. 07:$6M, 08:$9M, 09:$10M, 10:$11M, 11:$12M Miguel Tejada 04:$3M, 05:$9M, 06:$10M, 07:$12M, 08:$13M, 09:$13M Carlos Lee 07:$11M, 08:$12M, 09:$18.5M, 10:$18.5M, 11:$18.5M, 12:$18.5M BJ Ryan 06:$2M, 07:$5M, 08:$10M, 09:$10M, 10:$10M Jeff Suppan 07:$6M, 08:$8M, 09:$12.5M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$12.75M club option Troy Glaus 05:$8M, 06:$9M, 07:$10.5M, 08:$12.5M Dan Haren 09:$7.5M, 10:$8.25M, 11:$12.75M, 12:$12.75M, 13:$15.5M Andruw Jones 08:$9M, 09:$15M Hiroki Kuroda 08:$5M, 09:$10M, 10:$13M Rafael Furcal 09:$6.5M, 10:$8.5M, 11:$12M, 12:$12M club option Most major free agent contracts are backloaded, many significantly so, just from my perusing the rosters only about 1 in 5 are contracts in which the annual rate stays about the same throughout the life of the contract - like for instance Jason Schmidt 07:$12.5M, 08:$12M, 09:$12M

Submitted by Rob G.  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 4:11pm  

some of those first year numbers are probably off as they don't put in the signing bonus $$, fwiw...

but I think it's safe to say Ned Colletti is a big fan of backloading contracts....

Submitted by WISCGRAD  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 7:18pm  
The same of course can be said of the Cubs. If you add signing bonuses to the first year, Hendry's recent signings look like this: Zambrano 08:$20M, 09:$17.75M, 10:$17.875M, 11:$17.875M, 12:$18M, 13:$19.25M Soriano 07:$17M, 08:$13M, 09:$16M, 10-14:$18M annually Ramirez 07:$13M, 08:$14M, 09:$15.65M, 10:$15.75M, 11:$14.6M player option, 12:$16M club option ($2M buyout) Lee 06-10: $13M annually Dempster 09:$12M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$13.5M, 12:$14M player option Lilly 07:$9M, 08:$7M, 09:$12M, 10:$12M Fukudome 08:$10M, 09:$11.5M, 10:$13M, 11:$13.5M Marquis 07:$4.75M, 08:$6.375M, 09:$9.875M DeRosa 07:$2.75M, 08:$4.75M, 09:$5.5M Marquis and DeRosa are the two extreme backloaded salaries. Lilly's rises a lot too. Soriano has a discounted 2nd year. but otherwise everyone is pretty much within a million or two annually for the duration of their contracts.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 11:34am  
as I said, the jump from 2008 to 2009 is extreme but I think there was a reason for it. Everything else from my brief glimpse looks pretty S.O.P.

Submitted by Paul Noce  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:56pm  
Z 2008: $15 mil (2009: 17.75) Sori 2008: $13 mil (2009: 16) ARam 2008: $14 (2009: 15.75) Lee $13 both years Lilly 2008: $7 mil (2009: $12 mil) Dempster 2008: $5.5 mil (2009: $12 mil) Fuku 2008: $6 mil (2009: $11.5 mil) That's increase of $24.5 mil for 2009 on 7 players. Not 3.75.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 5:06pm  

i was responding to your point about adding Peavy's contract down the road...I know that between last season and next was a significant jump.

I'm saying from 2009 and beyond, it's actually not that big a deal. This was the year that they got their provebial balls stuck in the vice.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 5:15pm  

fwiw, fukudome made $10M last year ($4M signing bonus), Dempster shouldn't be in there as he was a free agent and not a backloaded contract.

 

Submitted by crunch  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:26pm  
given the payroll has been rumored lately to be around the 140m area...and given that like 2/3rd of the payroll (as it stood as of yesterday) was already in that area... well, i would look forward to an either/or with the big OF or big SP, but i'm not holding my breath for both.

Submitted by Cubster  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:33pm  
Dibble said Bradley is a known cancer in the clubhouse...Hear that MB, go after that dumb boob. Stern has a boner for a Roberts deal

Submitted by crunch  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:57pm  
dibble was a cancer in the clubhouse...screw him...or rather, give him a vodka screwdriver. i dont think bradley on a multiyear is a safe thing for a NL club, but the guy hasn't been called out by his peers in quite a while.

Submitted by dB  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 5:50pm  
Dibs would gladly trade you that screwdriver for a new plain black t-shirt in size smmedium to show off the guns.

Submitted by The E-Man  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:40pm  
Look. Some of you were complaining that DeRo was getting paid too much at the time he was signed. Now you're bitching that he was traded. Which way is it gonna be? Now you're bereft that he's gone for Aaron Miles and three young arms with the last year of his deal? Let's ease out of the amrchair GM chair for a minute and see what happens prior to the convention (and, you can bet something will go down prior to then). And, further, let's see what team we will be fielding come opening day. Stoney was on the SCORE thirty minutes ago and stated that with Bradley, the Cubs should win the Division again by 12-14 games (he said 8 last year - off by two).

Submitted by Cubster  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:53pm  
on XM, Hendry: plans on picking up another LH outfielder sings DeRosa's praises for versatility, good person, etc. but move (implying adding Miles?) was to get more left handed and DeRosa was RH. Stern asks about Brian Roberts to play 2B. Hendry: No talks with Baltimore at all this offseason. Andy's not interested in dealing him. Cubs will go with Fontenot and Miles at 2B. Hendry: expect a couple of deals in the next 7-10 days including an OF bat. Stern: how about the bullpen? Hendry: Even without Woody, Marmol and Greg can both close. Also mentions Shark, Guzman, Cotts ...says Stevens may help in the pen. Stern: Any concerns about Soriano struggles in the postseason? Hendry: He's a streaky guy, a 270-280 hitter, not the model of consistency but he had 3 bad games in the playoffs but played well in the 2nd half last year. Dibble: what about the economy? Hendry: our ownership situation is unique. What we have/haven't done this winter is more affected by the ownership sale rather than the economy. Stern: Yankee's exorbitant spending, Salary Cap? Where do you stand? Hendry: I've spent alot of money in the last few years. I've no animosity toward the Yankee spending. I try not to be critical of others. Every GM would like more money on the payroll. Dibble: where are you? It sounds like you are hunting? Hendry: I'm in my brother's neighborhood, play a little golf here but I'm not carrying a gun.

Submitted by Rob G.  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:53pm  
new post up with a recap of Hendry on XM radio...

Submitted by Dmac  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 4:56pm  
Bradley may or may not be a "cancer in the clubhouse," but when you consider the source, that's a laughable assertion. Dibble has always been and always will be a ginormous horse's ass, and his teammates in Cincy didn't care for his act one damn bit. But they won with him anyway, so it didn't matter in the end.

Submitted by Seamhead  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 5:12pm  
So once the Marquis-Bradley deals are finalized, Hendry is in the position of being able to live with the present roster. And once the sale is complete, he is also has the pieces to get Peavy if the new ownership group agrees to increase the budget to accomodate Peavy's salary. He probably already has some assurances from the different groups that such approval would be given, or we wouldn't be hearing that the Peavy deal is back on the burner.

Submitted by Tarzan Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 5:57pm  
No question signing Bradley is a gamble. The injury history, the recent lack of reps in the outfield, switching leagues yet again. I'm not as concerned about the "cancer in the clubhouse" issue. Last year's team was painted as a clubhouse chock full of nice character guys without much internal strife. They won a bunch of games and then crapped the bed (again) in the Divisional series. Bottom line: whether it's changing the makeup of the clubhouse, the "handedness" of the lineup, or the pecking order at the top of the rotation (by acquiring "he-who-shall-not-be-named"), Hendry has to roll the dice a bit. Bradley may be tempestuous, but the team could certainly use some fire. And I know it's a weak comparison, but the Rodman thing worked out pretty well for the Bulls. Could it blow up in Hendry's face? Of course. But taking chances (even expensive chances) is part of the job description.

Submitted by OakLawnGuy  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 8:28pm  
You summed it all up in your last sentence, Tarz. Cubs won 97 games but ZERO in the post season. Chances need to be taken, changes need to be done. Why is Kenny Williams a genius for being so impatient with what appeared to be good rosters in the past, and now Hendry ships out a veteran utility guy and he's a goof? The clubhouse does seem too nice. Maybe Bradley was a considered a cancer in a losing clubhouse, maybe he wanted to push guys into playing winning baseball. Gerald Perry, his former hitting coach in Oakland and sparring partner, said as much. My only objection is the guy cannot put in a full season to save his soul.

Submitted by Jose  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 7:00pm  
Without the DeRosa deal, the team has been weakened. However, if we can go out and get Peavy, then I am okay with the DeRosa deal. But, if the DeRosa deal was to clear salary for Bradley, then this is not a better 2009 team than the 2008 team. It will be three and out and we are back to square one. Wish there was something that we could do to force Abreu over Bradley in Hendry's mind. Sorry, I am just not a big Bradley fan and I can not get excited about him joining the Cubs.

Submitted by crunch  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 7:06pm  
any team with dlee/aram/soriano/soto adding another power bat isn't in that bad of shape. ...not to mention the 4 starting pitchers.

Submitted by The Joe  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 7:09pm  
Sure there's something you could do. Go find him and tell him he sucks. After he strangles you, I imagine Hendry will look elsewhere for RF.

Submitted by OakLawnGuy  on Wed, 12/31/2008 - 8:24pm  
Everyone....there is no question this team is weaker RIGHT NOW, but there is a lot of offseason left. I don't believe for a minute that Hendry is nearly done with the roster. Adding Miles allows more flexibility. Bradley might not even be coming here, MLB reports today that Washington is going all out for him to play center (good luck with that, Jim Bowden). On your Abreu point I think the only way he becomes a Cub is if he's gets cheaper. With reports of three other teams chasing him, that might not pan out.

Submitted by Cubster  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 2:35pm  
it seems many of these contracts are backloaded but seeing the above numbers doesn't account for the bonus dollars which often gets some additional deferred treatment, if not exactly as "backloaded" as the actual salary. ie. Andruw Jones ... Jones will receive a $12.2 million signing bonus, of which $5.1 million is payable next year, $2.1 million in 2009 and $5 million in 2010. He will get salaries of $9 million next year and $15 million in 2009, and also will receive a no-trade clause. so Jones got $14.1M in 2008, $17.1M in 2009 and a final "bonus" of $5M in 2010 after the "employment" component of the contract is over. Now that's a bad contract (unless your name is Andruw). Ol' 3/44 aka Ned Coletti needs to roll a peanut down the street with his nose for offering that one.

Submitted by Barry  on Thu, 01/01/2009 - 3:22pm  
Speaking of pitchers and catchers reporting in 6 weeks, why are we about to sign Bako when Greg Zaun is available? Sure Zaun is 37 but is still effective.

Submitted by Dusty Baylor  on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 7:48am  
How does adding Miles add flexibility?? DeRosa hit LHP and RHP, and played 2B, 3b, SS, and OF. Miles can switch hit, hitting for average with zero power from both sides of the plate. Someone mentioned Miles at SS?? Aaron Miles career at SS: 107 games, .958 pct, 3.88 RFg, league RFg3.99 Oh..and his .317 ba last yeaar was a career high at age 31 (now 32) .289/.329/.364 So he's Neifi Perez if Neifi could hit for average a bit. Of course even Neifi hit 9 HR and 33 doubles for the Cubs in 2005. Miles will never sniff those marks.

Submitted by crunch  on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 6:04pm  
fwiw, aaron miles's D has improved since his earlier days. hell, in STL he improved a lot. it was kinda shocking how much better his footwork got. his arm is decent. that said...yeah, for batting he'll take an occasional walk, swing at almost everything, and hit singles. he can play 2nd/3rd/SS, though. don't think anyone would want him playing 162 games there, though. he's much better suited for 2nd.

Submitted by Jose  on Fri, 01/02/2009 - 11:17am  
The Joe: If that was a joke, I did not get it. Regarding the cancer issue, Bradley will not fire up this team. He will probably point to other players who do not deliver and then go out and either K, make an error, or get injured. We need someone who is capable of delivering a key hit during critical times, like the playoffs. Bradley is not that player. Even if Abreu is more expensive, he has a better history and more upside than Bradley.

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  • Arizona Phil 14 hours 53 min ago (view)

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  • crunch 21 hours 30 min ago (view)

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  • crunch 21 hours 36 min ago (view)

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  • Cubster 22 hours 33 min ago (view)

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    ========

     
  • crunch 1 day 1 hour ago (view)

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    IMPOTUS 45: "ANYBODY WHO WANTS A TEST CAN GET A TEST"

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