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Last updated 3-26-2024
 
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PITCHERS: 15
Yency Almonte
Adbert Alzolay 
Javier Assad
Jose Cuas
Kyle Hendricks
* Shota Imanaga
Caleb Kilian
Mark Leiter Jr
* Luke Little
Julian Merryweather
Hector Neris 
* Drew Smyly
* Justin Steele
Jameson Taillon
* Jordan Wicks

CATCHERS: 2
Miguel Amaya
Yan Gomes

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* Michael Busch 
Nico Hoerner
Nick Madrigal
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Christopher Morel
Dansby Swanson
Patrick Wisdom

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* Cody Bellinger 
Alexander Canario
# Ian Happ
Seiya Suzuki
* Mike Tauchman 

OPTIONED: 12 
Kevin Alcantara, OF 
Michael Arias, P 
Ben Brown, P 
Alexander Canario, OF 
Pete Crow-Armstrong, OF 
Brennen Davis, OF 
Porter Hodge, P 
* Matt Mervis, 1B 
Daniel Palencia, P 
Keegan Thompson, P 
Luis Vazquez, INF 
Hayden Wesneski, P 

 



 

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Cubs Close to Signing Cliff Floyd

Paul Sullivan in the Chicago Tribune is reporting the Cubs are close to signing 1B-OF Cliff Floyd to an incentive-laden deal. Sully speculates that Floyd will be used in a "platoon" in LF with Matt Murton, which considering the number of RHP vs LHP starters in the N. L., would mean Floyd would start about 2/3 of the time. Floyd was hampered by a sore left Achilles tendon in 2006, and there has been some concern that the Achilles will continue to be a problem for him in 2007. Also, Floyd had a rather extreme case of the splits in 2006 when it came to hitting versus RHP (OK) and versus LHP (terrible).

Comments

If they are going to use Murton as a platoon player why not trade him in a 3-way deal with Tor and some team with a surplus of good young pitching (Atlanta- Kyle Davies, Pit- Gorrezelny, FLA- Nolasco) and then deal that young pitching off with Ohman and Marshall or Guzman to the Jays for Rios who solves CF and can be moved to RF when Pie is ready.

How solid is this 'speculation'? I know there have been a lot of concerns about Murton's playing time, but how likely do you (or anyone) think it is the Murton will only start 1/3 of the time in left? Is there a chance of Murton starting elsewhere on these days?

The Joe — December 20, 2006 @ 11:30 am How solid is this ’speculation’? I know there have been a lot of concerns about Murton’s playing time, but how likely do you (or anyone) think it is the Murton will only start 1/3 of the time in left? Is there a chance of Murton starting elsewhere on these days? ==================== JOE: I don't know on what information Sully is basing his speculation, but in my opinion, the proper use of Cliff Floyd in '07 would be to give D-Lee a day off if his wrist is sore, and maybe one start a week in LF against only the N. L.'s very toughest RHP starters (Oswalt, Carpenter, Schmidt, Smoltz, Peavy, et al). And on all other days, Floyd would join Daryle Ward as a pretty decent lefty-hitting late-inning 1-2 punch off the bench, although Floyd is 0-12 as a PH over the past three seasons.

"Sources said late Tuesday the Cubs were close to signing Floyd to an incentive-laden deal and plan to use him in a left-field platoon with Matt Murton." Man I thought Dusty was the only guy who didn't play youngsters. Lou's batting Izturis/DeRosa 2nd and now platooning Murton. All we need if JJ to start against LHP and many TCR will have Lou fired already. Go Cubs!!

Well, let's let him manage at least one game before we hate him. But I'm certainly getting nervous.

Unlike Jones, Pagan, Hollandsworth and Choi, who had inside-out swings, Floyd is a lefty pull hitter with power. (I'm not a golfer so I can't characterize Burnitz's swing.) So Floyd gives us something we've been missing for a while.

Floyd gives us something we have been missing for awhile? We have been missing out on injury prone players who hit .240 and on the down side of their career? I must have been asleep the last 32 years.

Part of me is annoyed that the Cubs seem dead set on removing playing time from Murton but I have to admit, having a Floyd/Ward/Murton rotation in left field would give us a kick a$$ offensive combo out there plus we have a nice built in DH situation for interleague games. Here is the offensive roster as I see it right now: C-Barrett C-Blanco 1B-Lee 2B-DeRosa 3B-Ramirez SS-Izturis Inf-Theriot OF-Soriano OF-Jones OF-Ward OF-Floyd OF-Pagan OF-Murton 13 hitters and all of them with rolls. Unless Jones is traded (and for what?). This is the offense (barring the inevitable injury). What about the pitching staff. I think given that offense, the Cubs will have 12 pitchers. Here they are as I see them: SP-Zambrano SP-Hill SP-Lilly SP-Marquis SP-Miller/Prior RP-Wuertz RP-Wood RP-Dempster RP-Howry RP-Cotts RP-Eyre RP-Ohman Looks like 88 wins to me.

I think Murt will still get about 50% of playing time. In other words, I doubt it will be a straight platoon.

Don't worry (be happy), Floyd's achilles will make him outfield usable about once or twice per week, I think Darryle Ward should be more worried about the occasional start in LF from Floyd than Murton. The only 2/3 time Floyd will spend is with Mark O'Neill and not with left field. And if it's not his achilles, it'll be some other body part breaking down. Nice addition to the bench and if he is healthy which I doubt there is some upside to his offense, God knows it's more upside than having Macias or Hollandsworth as the 4-5th OF. That's why they call it an Achilles heel. Blame Thetis...Achilles last words, "...we'll always have Paris." Achilles died from a heel wound as the result of a poisoned arrow fired by Paris. According to a myth arising later, his mother, Thetis, had dipped the infant Achilles in the river Styx, holding onto him by his heel, and he became invulnerable where the waters touched him -- that is, everywhere but the areas covered by her thumb and forefinger -- implying that only a heel wound could have been his downfall. Hmmm wasn't Styxx (or at least Dennis DeYoung) a guest conductor for the 7th inning? Must be a forshadowing of the coming of Cliff Floyd. One more thing...wasn't it the offseason after 2004 when it took Hendry forever to move Sosa and the Mets were considering a swap Sosa for Floyd? I wonder how close that trade actually ever was to being completed?

No, Mike, the cubs have had definitely a few of those guys over the years. But, I guess I'm willing to give Floyd a chance. I don't really think it's gonna be a platoon, anyway.

This was in the last post too- Laugh of the day- I don’t know if anyone else has seen the video of the German kid destroying his computer keyboard while screaming at his screen. Turns out he was a Cubs fan- http://64.111.216.59/post.phtml?pk=1796 If you thought Rob G was mad about Marquis signing. Amazingly a Cardinal fan did this on his Commadore 64.

cubster — December 20, 2006 @ 12:03 pm One more thing…wasn’t it the offseason after 2004 when it took Hendry forever to move Sosa and the Mets were considering a swap Sosa for Floyd? I wonder how close that trade actually ever was to being completed? ================================= CUBSTER: Excellent summary of the Achilles myth, Cubster! Did they teach you that stuff in medical school? As far as Sosa for Floyd is concerned, the Cubs supposedly were indeed all set to trade Sosa to the Mets in early '05, only to have Omar Minaya decline to make the deal (I think Hendry might call it "renege") at the last minute. But it all worked out, because now the Cubs have both Cliff Floyd AND Mike Fontenot.

It's Cliff Floyd, in 2 months he'll be on the DL and Murton will be starting everyday. And there's no way it'll be a straight platoon. Floyd just can't handle playing every day. I imagine he'll get a lot of the starts versus righties, but if six in a row end up on the schedule, Murton will get a couple of starts, same will probably go for day after night games. I imagine the percentage will be more 50/50 than the standard 70/30. I'm not thrilled with it, and it seems like a waste of money but this isn't Hollandsworth or Pagan or some other brand of crap out there. Floyd can hit righties quite well, has power and gets on-base. It's not like Murton was going to massively outproduce Floyd versus righties, might not outproduce him at all. And our bench looks pretty good right now... Murton/Floyd Ward Theriot Blanco Pagan/???

Oh if there is incentives for AB's in Floyds contract he will be our opening day LFer and it will be a stupid ass move. He is not going to sign a contract based on X amount of AB's and him getting X amount of millions of dollars and then expect to ride the bench and get less than 100 AB's like a normal pinch hitter. The incentives in his contract will decide whether Floyd is our new everyday LFer or not.

I believe Mets ownership vetoed the Sosa/Floyd trade. Minaya was the only one in that organization who actually wanted Sosa.

E-Man- Yes we will see, but I think it is worth talking about though considering these things have been published. I will be interesting, that's for sure...

By the way, not to stir up controversy, but I just don't get why so many think Matt Murton is a disaster in left field. I watched a lot of games last year and while he's not Ichiro, I'd say he's pretty average. Also if you look at his defensive statistics (admittedly defensive stats aren't always great) he seems to also be pretty average: 133 Games: 3 Assists, 2 DP, 3E, FP .988, RFg 1.83 League FP and lgRFg: .982 and 1.54 By comparison: Carl Crawford: 148 games: 9 A, 0 DP, 3E, .990 FP, 2.10 RFg. Manny Ramirez: 123 games: 7 A, 0 DP, 2E, .989 FP, 1.48 RFg Scott Podsednik: 135 games: 4 A, 0 DP, 8E, .969 FP, 1.84 RFg (AL League average: .986 and 1.69) Adam Dunn: 156 games: 7 A, 1 DP, 12E!!, .960 FP, 1.83 RFg I was trying to think of a LF other than Carl Crawford who would be considered to have excellent defense...but I honestly couldn't think of one (probably forgetting an obvious one). But to me it looks like Matt Murton is right in the middle there in Range factor, right on league average in fielding percentage (god Dunn is awful...and Podsednik too for that matter, didn't realize how much of a butcher he was) and hell, his arm can't be that bad if he turned 2 double plays. It always seemed to me that even though he didn't have a cannon, it was an average arm with accuracy, unlike Jacque "throw the ball into the ground three feet in front of me" Jones or Noodle-arm Pierre.

Hell: "his (Murton's) arm can’t be that bad if he turned 2 double plays." FYI, Jacque Jones also had 2 DP's last year.

FYI, Jacque Jones also had 2 DP’s last year. -------- our OF's have one disadvantage, they don't have JJones on the basepaths for catchable flyballs.

Murton Career (2005-2006) vs. RHP .289/.351/.436 Floyd 2004-2006 vs. RHP .277/.369/.498 I've dealt with Floyd before and he is a great guy, but Murton has shown an ability to hit RHP well, and he's still steadily improving. He should be our #2 hitter and play nearly everyday. What's the point of having quality guys who make league-minimum salaries if you're going to underuse them while they're cheap?

In my opinion, baseball defense is in the eyes of the beholder. Just like it's futile to try and statistically rate the performance of a symphony orchestra, a Broadway show, or a tightrope walker, there is no good way to objectively rate the defensive performance of a baseball player. You just have to watch the player play defense, and then eventually form your own opinion and conclusions. I think Murton plays LF OK. He's adequate. He does not require a defensive replacement in the late innings when the Cubs are ahead.

Are there still rumors that the Cubs are looking to move Jones? If so, the Floyd signing would make more sense.

Manny--touche, re: double plays. But I stand by my assertion that Murton is average in LF and that he has an okay arm. Not a cannon, but at least accurate enough to hit the cut off man, which is more than can be said for Jacque Jones, or even Moises Alou.

I wouldn't be so sure it's going to be a straight platoon. I think they will split time equally somehow and give the Cubs a pretty good bench. I am really starting to like this bench. Let's say on days Murton plays you have Floyd, Ward, Theriot, Blanco, Cedeno, etc. I like it! I still see us trading Jones, getting another CF option (making bench even stronger) and a deadline-deal seems to be very do-able with our new payroll.

Hellfrozeover: "Not a cannon, but at least accurate enough to hit the cut off man, which is more than can be said for Jacque Jones, or even Moises Alou." I agree completely. I know this isn't exactly scientific, but we get Trib seats every now and then down the leftfield line right behind the Cubs' bullpen. Every time I sit there I watch Murton warm up in left field. Whoever he throws to stands about 150 feet awat and holds his glove in different positions for Murton to throw at. It's uncanny how often the guy doesn't even have to move his glove to catch the ball. Maybe every major leaguer can do that, but it impressed me enough to take note. Anyway, I'm not saying Murton is going to win any Gold Gloves, but his defense is at least average. And no, the Uncle Lou shouldn't stunt his growth by platooning him with a washed up Floyd.

Robr — December 20, 2006 @ 12:58 pm Are there still rumors that the Cubs are looking to move Jones? If so, the Floyd signing would make more sense. ================================= ROB R: Reports in the media over the last few days keep dropping hints that Hendry wants a "stop-gap" CF for 2007 who will not stand in the way of Felix Pie whenever Pie is ready. Since Jacque Jones is signed through 2008 and is probably best-utilized in LF, JJ would not appear to fit that job description. Also, there were media reports last month that Jacque Jones had asked Hendry to trade him if possible, and that Hendry might do so as long as he can get fair value back in the deal. Therefore, I think it is likely that Hendry's plan would be to try and trade Jones for a "stop-gap" CF (upgrade over Angel Pagan, at least in terms of experience) who can move into either the 4th OF or supersub utility slot whenever Pie is ready. If it is not possible to trade Jones directly for such a player, then I believe Hendry will try and get whatever he can for Jones (prospect or prospects) and then make a separate transaction for a veteran stop-gap CF--maybe somebody like Jeff DaVanon (AZ), Ryan Church (WAS), or Rob Mackowiak (CHW)--or else just go with a combination of Angel Pagan and Ryan Theriot in CF until he can find somebody else or until Pie is ready.

Randy Bush is an internal promotion from Special Assistant to the General Manager http://tinyurl.com/yjr3g2 from Scout.com archives, 7-18-06: Randy Bush was named Special Assistant to the General Manager in January, 2005. Essentially, he is a major league scout. He is also a former major league player. Bush spent 12 seasons with the Minnesota Twins, attending college at Univ of New Orleans prior to becoming a 2nd round pick in 1979. From 2000-05 he was the university's head baseball coach. http://cubs.scout.com/2/547584.html (it's probably a subscription website)

Arizona Phil: Therefore, I think it is likely that Hendry’s plan would be to try and trade Jones for a “stop-gap�? CF (upgrade over Angel Pagan, at least in terms of experience) who can move into either the 4th OF or supersub utility slot whenever Pie is ready. Okay, I'll say it... what's Craig Counsell doing these days?

"I wouldn’t be so sure it’s going to be a straight platoon." hell, every indication so far, especially from hendry and pinhead, have pointed to a straight platoon not being in the picture. this "eventual signing" has taken a looooong time even though everyone knew it was probably coming.

cubster — December 20, 2006 @ 1:35 pm Randy Bush named assistant GM to Hendry (per Offman on WSCR) ============================= A 48-year old ex-big league player, Randy Bush was one of several individuals employed as an "Assistant to the General Manager" last year. Bush's main responsibility for the last couple of years was scouting the Cubs farm system for Hendry (sort of like an inspector general), so probably nobody knows the Cubs farm system better than Bush (maybe not even Oneri Fleita!).

miluakee signed counsell 2/6m after SD flaked on signing him. r.weeks to move to the OF, supposedly.

Okay, I’ll say it… what’s Craig Counsell doing these days? I think he was Milwaukee's big FA signing of this offseason.

Counsell was the Brewers only FA signing so far. J.Estrada, C.Vargas and Aquino came via the Doug Davis trade. So much for reinvesting the $ they saved by trading Carlos Lee and D.Davis.

Weeks isn't moving to the outfield (at least not yet), Counsell is a backup for SS or 2b. There's a good chance Hardy still won't be healthy by the start of next year either.

" So much for reinvesting the $ they saved by trading Carlos Lee and D.Davis. " According to them and White Sox not much out there that they like.

The only thing that makes me nervous about this new Cubs bench is that the same guy who's doing the signings is the same guy who heaped praise on Jody Gerut when he was acquired.

Other than sportswriter's speculations, I have not seen ANY recent evidence (post GM meetings) that Jacque Jones is going to get traded. There is NO reason to trade him. Hendry has gotten terrific value out of him, and, based on the current market, he is even a BETTER value. The mediocre players some of you are suggesting are just absurd when you compare JJones stats and his 400+ AB's. I say leave him there, and let him hit 20-25 HR's and not too many AB's against RH pitching. What's the fascination with Ryan Church?

Just like it’s futile to try and statistically rate the performance of...a tightrope walker I can think of one good standard...

MIL was after Lieber in trade but that fell through. Talks could resurface because Philly reportedly has Lieber on the block right now. I'm sure MIL wanted a larger portion of his contract picked up.

�? So much for reinvesting the $ they saved by trading Carlos Lee and D.Davis. �? Well, those weren't really salary-clearing trades, they were trades to get value and service-time out of soon-to-be free agents. And the Brewers may yet blow a bunch of money on Suppan. Reports are they're mulling a 4/40-44 offer for him, though he's not going to do anything until Zito signs. And they won't be moving Weeks, though Bill Hall will be somewhere in the outfield next year, and its looking like CF unless they bring someone in.

Despite over $300 million in signings, I am still convinced that the success of the 2007 Cubs still hinges on Mark Prior. If Prior can come back as even a solid #3 starter, the rotation of Z, Lilly, Prior, Hill and Marquis makes us a solid contender (not perfect by any stretch, but solid). However, if Prior is a no-go, the revised rotation of Z, Lilly, Marquis, Hill and Miller is decidedly weaker. And if you take into account that a healthy Prior allows you to deal Miller at the end of ST to any one of a bevy of teams desperate for a veteran #5 starter (at the unbelieveable price of $1.5 million) , the Cubs would be able to plug any last minute needs from a position of strength. I think Hendry has done as well as he could have done in this market, and has only sacrificed one young player (Aardsma) in the process. The starting lineup, the rotation and the bench are all greatly improved. But Prior is still the key, and we won't have a clue as to his ability to pitch until February.

No way possible that Hendry deals Miller at the end of spring traning if Prior appears healthy. I say "appears" healthy because, while getting through spring training, or even participating at all in spring training, would be a major advancement for Prior, Hendry will need a lot more proof than that that Prior is healthy before Miller is dealt. Let's face it, spring training is only somewhat more taxing than the towel drills that Prior excels at. We won't know if Prior is healthy for months into the regular season. Beyond that, I do agree that a healthy Prior would make a great deal of difference to this team. But we would not be even that close to success if it were not for the moves the Cubs have made this off season. As for Floyd, he has his problems but what is the alternative? Is there a better alternative? What is the harm of a one-year deal that is heavily incentive laden?

Considering the Cubs still have a question mark in CF. Will they still be looking once this Floyd deal is done? Does that mean that Soriano or Jones will be the starting centerfielder for your 2007 Cubs?

If Pie has an .850 OPS in two years, that will play anywhere in the lineup. I am suprised Silver came up with such optimistic projections without using 2nd half data. I am also suprised he called WTE a hitters park. Either our hitters are overrated in AA or our pitchers, I wish someone can make up their mind and let us know. I think the problem with Floyd isn't he doesn't really offer something we don't already have. Or have twice over. I don't see how he is going to be any better offensively than Jones or Ward from the left side. What are we going to do, bench Lee to get the three of them into the lineup? No thanks.

miller cant be traded at the end of ST i didnt think. doesnt he have protection of the signing he made or is that just for new club signings?

I don't know why people are so paniced about the prospect of Jones in CF. He came up as a CF, played CF as recently as 2004, and would most likely have spent his career as a CF if not for this guy named Torii who keeps winning gold gloves. Jones certainly has the range and balltracking ability to play CF and his irratic arm is slightly less of an issue in CF than in RF. What's the problem? I also have no problem with Soriano in CF, but he's said he wants to stick at one positoin, and I'm assuming they don't want him to "block" CF for Pie.

that's the first time I've ever read that Iowa is a harder place to hit than Pringles Park, the Jaxx former home. I wonder where's he getting that from?

I would say his erractic arm becomes more of an issue in CF since he'll be in on about three times as many plays. The only good news is that teams won't just grab an extra base for the hell of it like they did on Pierre. With Pierre you knew you were going to beat the throw, with Jones there's the one in a 100 chance he actually breaks out a good throw.

Bleeding Blue, Center fielders catch more balls than right fielders, and the throw to home is (in general) farther. The big difference is keeping runners going to 2nd, and Jones couldn't do that last year in right, I assume that he could do that in center, even Pierre could. Murton's arm is pretty accurate, it's just about 60 feet short. I don't have the stats but I would be amazed if any of his assists were at home.

Real Neal, I for one am not suggesting that Floyd be a regular starter. I thought he would primarily be a guy off the bench. I just view him as someone who strengthens our bench. He seems like a big upgrade to guys like Macias and Bynum.

I agree that should Prior come out of ST healthy, you can't count on him staying that way until the final out of the Cub season has been recorded. If Miller could bring something in a trade it would mean that he's looked pretty good so shy wouldn't you keep him as insurance for any number of potential problems such as Marquis' gopher ball problem, Hill's first full MLB season etc. Hell, if Miller really comes back strong, he could be the second or third best starter on the team. You can't have too much starting pitching and, in the Cubs case recently, it's really hard to have any. I do hope Prior is healthy this year. But then, I also hope for peace in the Middle East and to lose weight while drinking beer.

Jacque for CF in '07! Make T-shirts, take it to the streets, whatever you have to do... He's a better option than anyone else at this point and unless Pie has an offensive revelation in ST, Jacque will be the better option for 2007. Pie's superior D in CF would be nice, but the probable difference in offense just wouldn't be worth it. Keep Jacque one more year, his crapshoot throws are fun. We can start taking odds on what he'll do for each assist chance. Will he throw a 90MPH fastball into the grass about 20 feet away? Will he bounce the ball off the backstop... 20 feet over Barrett's head?

New TCR Contest for each game What will Jacque's first throw to try and nail a runner do in today's game? A) Go 20 feet over it's intended target B) Travel 15 feet in the air, kill some worms and then roll 150 feet to an infielder as the opposing dugout laughs C) Is accurate but too late to get the runner D) Is accurate and gets the runner

D) Is accurate and gets the runner Of course this after a White Sox game at the Cell, when senior citizens are allowed to run around the bases.

Weren't Jones throws bad because he had a hurt shoulder that he got taken care of after the season? Or did he always have a bad arm?

crunch — December 20, 2006 @ 3:57 pm miller cant be traded at the end of ST i didnt think. doesnt he have protection of the signing he made or is that just for new club signings? =================================== CRUNCH: I don't know if it's this way in the new CBA, but in the old one, because Wade Miller signed prior to the end of the 15-day Free-agency Filing Period, he would NOT get the automatic "no trade" through June 15th that is accorded Type XX free-agents who sign after the conclusion of the Free-Agency Filing Period. However, Kerry Wood, Aramis Ramirez (who I believe got a "no trade" in his contract anyway), Henry Blanco Mark DeRosa, Alfonso Soriano, Ted Lilly, Daryle Ward, Jason Marquis, and Cliff Floyd (if he signs with the Cubs) would have a "no trade" through June 15th, which they can waive, but if they do, the Cubs can only trade the player (through June 15th) for cash an/or player contracts totaling $50K or less (aggregate).

"Of course this after a White Sox game at the Cell, when senior citizens are allowed to run around the bases." Or when we play San Francisco, when senior citizens are allowed to run around the bases.

If Prior is healthy in ST, and barring other pitching injsuries, I cannot see Miller being shifted to the pen or pitching in Des Moines. Miller has been a starter his whole career, and his surgically-repaired shoulder may not be up to the rigors of the pen, even as a swing man. And it appears that Cotts will fill that role in the pen anyway. And I can't imagine the Cubs attempting to send a vet like Miller to AAA if he has demonstrated that he is healthy and effective. I don't know the specific rules on this, but assuming that he hs no options left, he may also have the right to refuse the demotion and declare himself a FA. So if Prior is healthy in ST, and assuming the other starters are healthy as well, I can't see Miller as our insurance policy for Prior's continued health.

The E-Man — December 20, 2006 @ 2:25 pm Other than sportswriter’s speculations, I have not seen ANY recent evidence (post GM meetings) that Jacque Jones is going to get traded. There is NO reason to trade him. Hendry has gotten terrific value out of him, and, based on the current market, he is even a BETTER value. The mediocre players some of you are suggesting are just absurd when you compare JJones stats and his 400+ AB’s. I say leave him there, and let him hit 20-25 HR’s and not too many AB’s against RH pitching. What’s the fascination with Ryan Church? ================================ E-MAN: I hope you're right. Please understand, I certainly am not ADVOCATING the trading of Jacque Jones. I was only saying that if what Paul Sullivan wrote is true--IF Jones has indeed requested a trade and IF Hendry decides to accomodate him, and IF the Cubs want only a "stop-gap" to play CF until whenever Felix Pie is ready (presumably sometime in '07), THEN acquiring somebody like Jeff DaVanon, Ryan Church, or Rob Maclowiak would fit the definition of a "stop-gap" CF. Otherwise, I have no fascination with Ryan Church. If it was up to me, I would just play Jones in CF most everyday (his arm couldn't be any worse than Juan Pierre's), and I would NOT sign Cliff Floyd (there is no evidence to support the idea that Floyd can be effective hitting off the bench). And Jones' splits against LHP in '06 weren't that bad, certainly not as bad as Cliff Floyd's. Jones vs LHP: 234/261/416 Floyd vs LHP: 179/274/357 In fact, if you prorate Jones' PAs vs LHP to his number vs RHP, his doubles and HR totals would be almost the same. Where Jones has trouble against LHPs is that he hits for a lower batting average, never takes a walk (two BBs versus LHP in 2006), and strikes out a bit more (but not a whole lot more). But his power numbers are about the same against both LHP and RHP. So against a tough lefty starter (and there really aren't that many of those in the N. L.), Pagan or Theriot could get a spot start in CF. So I would keep Jones, play him in CF, and whenever Pie is deemed ready, I would move Jones at that time. Or who knows what the situation might be? Maybe Murton or Soriano go down for a while with an injury.

Seamhead — December 20, 2006 @ 5:06 pm If Prior is healthy in ST, and barring other pitching injsuries, I cannot see Miller being shifted to the pen or pitching in Des Moines. And I can’t imagine the Cubs attempting to send a vet like Miller to AAA if he has demonstrated that he is healthy and effective. I don’t know the specific rules on this, but assuming that he hs no options left, he may also have the right to refuse the demotion and declare himself a FA. So if Prior is healthy in ST, and assuming the other starters are healthy as well, I can’t see Miller as our insurance policy for Prior’s continued health. ============================= SEAM: Wade Miller has one minor league option available, but because he has five-plus years of MLB service time, he can refuse an optional assignment. However, a couple of years ago, Ben Grieve was in a similar situation with the Cubs, and he did accept an optional assignment to the minors. What happens if a player like Miller (or Grieve) is optioned to the minors and he refuses to accept the assignment? He does NOT become a free-agent. Rather, the Cubs just have to keep him on their 25-man roster, or they can trade him or release him. Depending on how much they want to keep Miller as an insurance policy, it's conceivable that if Prior is (apparently) healthy, the Cubs could pay Miller a bonus to accept a minor league option to AAA. Like they might give him a contract extention through 2008, or guarantee some or all of his $3.75M in 2007 performance/incentive bonus money if he agrees to go to AAA. .

Sam Fuld? Maybe if you're looking for a centerfielder for your local softball team. Good grief.

With the signing of Floyd, We now have 4 bonafied Left Fielders and NO bonafied CF or RF's. Can you say, oponents running wild???? the old adage, Defense and pitching win championships holds true. and always has. I like the Floyd pickup, for a 70-100 starts, and a good bat off the bench, however i'm expecting either Jacque or Murton to be on the trading block. How do we get Baldelli or Rios to shore up the D and add some speed to our outfield? Trade one of our 3 left handed specialists (Eyre) plus Murton / Jones, plus best prospect.

Sam Fuld is a very good player. Although he is 25, he has only two years of minor league experience (2005 at Peoria and 2006 at Daytona), he is an outstanding defensive CF, and he's a patient hitter with plus-speed. At bat, he is a left-handed version of Ryan Theriot, Ryan Freel, or David Eckstein. He is an insect. And I like insects at the top of the batting order. Obnoxious insects. Fuld played college ball at Stanford and was a member of Team USA. He was drafted by the Cubs in the 24th Round of June Draft in 2003 (when he was 21) after his junior season in college, but the Cubs didn't offer him enough money so he went back to school. The Cubs drafted him again in June 2004 (when he was 22)--this time in the 10th Round--and this time the Cubs were able to sign him. However, Fuld had a broken hand at the time, such that he was unable to play that first year, and it delayed his pro debut until 2005 (when he was 23).  So he played at Peoria when he was 23 (pro debut), at Daytona when he was 24 (2nd season) , and he just turned 25 last month. If healthy, he will likely be the every day CF at AA Tennessee in 2007 (at age 25).  

I like Sam too, Phil, but he's a long way from the majors. By the time he's ready, the Cubs' need will have moved on. But I'll be rooting for him. I don't want either Floyd or Jones in my lineup against LHP, and I can't afford to have two such platoon guys in my OF or on my bench. If they're serious about Floyd, they have to move Jones in trade, period. I wish the Cubs would just put Soriano in CF, it would solve a lot of problems. The Cubs like to talk, but no way Pie is ready for the bigs in 07, 08 is a more likely debut. So if the Cubs sign Floyd, put Soriano in CF, and move Jones, then what they need is a RH-hitting platoon partner for Floyd in RF, **NOT** make him a platoon partner of the perfectly-satisfactory Matt Murton in LF. Who could the Cubs get for this? Craig Wilson has been mentioned. Others?

eric the great, Floyd cannot play Right Field - he has no arm, no legs, and NO. i agree on the Soriano front, assuming he can keep improving in the outfield. however that is not a given. Floyd / Murton, Soriano, and at this point, i'd let Pie play -- entirely for his defensive presence. There is no way we can survive such an outfield of Flyd / murton / soriano and jacque. Too many LF'rs! no arms!

With the signing of Floyd, We now have 4 bonafied Left Fielders and NO bonafied CF or RF’s. Can you say, oponents running wild???? the old adage, Defense and pitching win championships holds true. and always has. Didn't the Yanks win championships with Bernie in CF? He's been bad out there for as long as he's been out there, it's not just a recent thing. Juan Pierre, 2003? Yeah, we'd be fine with Jacque. And just because Jacque hasn't been out there recently, doesn't mean he can't handle it. My vote goes to Soriano though, far less chance of him tearing up a knee in center over left or right at Wrigley. He certainly has the speed to cover the ground.

ROB: What will Jacque’s first throw to try and nail a runner do in today’s game? A) Go 20 feet over it’s intended target B) Travel 15 feet in the air, kill some worms and then roll 150 feet to an infielder as the opposing dugout laughs C) Is accurate but too late to get the runner D) Is accurate and gets the runner This is funny stuff! But really not that funny if we think about it. I'm in agreement with quite a few of you whom are advocating (I like this word - thanks, AZ PHIL) that the best option is JJ in CF. But, do any of you know if he indeed has been rehabbing his shoulder? Surgery? I really have liked him for the most part but gosh, his arm is just so bad generally. The combination of his base-running with bouncing the throws in to the infield - or air-mailing the balls into the stands from right is what made Cub fans boo him, in my opinion. And, of course Casper and Brenly scrutinized these things... I didn't see him all that much 'cause Twins games aren't on the Networks too much (surprise), but was his arm this bad during his time there? If he can just hit the cutoff man consistently, I'd be fine with that. But its another "IF"!

jones was never known for his arm accuracy...strength, yes...accuracy, no. common for him to overthrow, but the "spike into the ground" and 10-hoppers to the lip of the OF grass werent. still, though...its looking a lot like jones will be playing RF/LF for someone else next year. i just hope its worth it if he leaves.

I think Jacque's arm was bad in Minnesota, but the turf didn't slow down his grounders. Instead of a ten hopper to second it was a two hopper. I thought I heard somewhere that Jacque was playing with bone chips in his throwing arm.

I've always wanted to see big Cliff Floyd hammering the ball to the short alleys at Wrigley for the Cubs. I have to admit that I'm hoping we didn't wait too long past his prime to see it. If he can stay reasonably healthy-he has done that a few times with big results, including just a couple years ago-it'll be fun to see and the Cubs' lineup will be very tough. Good defensive infield, outfield mediocre defensively but strong offensively. Don't rush Pie. Nobody needs to see another waste of talent like what happened with Corey. Wait till you can see he's ready, then go for it. Rotating ABs for Jones, Floyd, Murton in some manner is OK. Jones and Marshall for Rios would be OK, too, to upgrade defensively. Finally, we can, of course, always use more pitching, so how about a deal for Brad Penny that doesn't disrupt the core lineup.

Dave Kaplan on WGN tonight said the Cliff Floyd signing is NOT close-- Cubs still pouring over medicals. Also said Jim Hendry has lost 6 lbs since his hospitalization.

Why has everyone missed the announcement the Cubs trainer made on the day Lou had his press conference that Prior WOULD NOT BE READY for spring training? It was even a small article in the Tribune that day, it's just that the Cubs tried to let it slip by without much notice. I guess their plan worked since you guys keep speculating if he will be healthy. The trainer already said he wouldn't.

If the Cubs' trainer knows that Prior won't be ready for spring training JACKSON, maybe he should tell LouPa. Piniella was quoted just a couple days ago regarding Mark Prior's health:
"With the other kid (Prior), the Cubs have had disappointments. We're going to bring him into camp and give him every opportunity to pitch in our rotation. Are we counting on him? Not as much as before. And the reason is, it's been hard keeping Prior healthy. So if he comes to camp and he's healthy, it's almost like signing another top, top pitcher. That's the way we're looking at it."
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/features/262959.html

The trainer also needs to tell Larry Rothschild that Prior won't be ready for spring,..... "Rothschild said the latest on Prior is that his rehabilitation from shoulder trouble is going well -- but that's a common description for Prior this time of year. ''We can sit here in the winter and say the rehab is going good, but we know -- and he knows -- that in spring training, he has to prove himself,'' Rothschild said. ''And if he does, then we're looking at having a pretty good arm there.''

Jackson, I can't find a link to any Tribune article that says that Prior will NOT be ready. Can you provide one? I read the trib every day and I have never seen the article you refer to.

Prior at the end of the season was told by his doctors/trainers to shut it down for 4-6 weeks in the hopes that his injury (whatever it is) can heal on its own. Surgery as they quoted "was a last resort." Which means if this "rest" period doesn't help him get over his injury he is likely to go under the knife to correct it. He probably just picked up a baseball a few weeks ago and they are still in the process of deciding what is normal soreness and recovery and what is injury, if any. The news then didn't sound very encouraging. For a guy that has had as much rest as he has had over the last couple years I don't think MORE rest is going to fix whatever is wrong with him. It could be fine all the way up until spring training until he starts throwing more often and then it flares up again. That is why the Cubs are crossing their fingers and hoping he is healthy because they got no idea what his status is at this point, and I find that troubling news. I think he is still injured and if he is he should have gone under the knife a long time ago. Doing the rehab without surgery route rarely works out. It just delays the inevitable surgery and costs players years of productive playing time. Ask Wade Miller how he went from a damn good pitcher to a mediocre one. He spent 2+ years trying to rehab an arm that should have gone under the knife when he hurt it in 2004.

Who is this Mark Prior of whom you speak? Did the Cubs make a trade I don't know about?

*I’ve always wanted to see big Cliff Floyd hammering the ball to the short alleys at Wrigley for the Cubs. I have to admit that I’m hoping we didn’t wait too long past his prime to see it.* Three words: Howard Johnson Redux. Thanks, Mets front office--again.

We didn't get Hojo from the Mets did we? And how does another team's front office force you to sign a FA?

We got Howard Johnson through free agency. Also he played for the Colorado Rockies for a year between playing for the Mets and signing with the Cubs.

Yeah, I tend to agree. Rest and towel drills have been a failure. There is no reason to believe that more rest is going to help Mark. I say it is possible that we will not see Prior in a Cubs uniform at all next year. Most likely he will not be ready for spring training. We will be told that he is experiencing "discomfort" in his pitching arm but that it is not "pain." We will be told that the team is being "cautious" with Prior. Before spring training is over, there will be an announcement, most likely early on a Sunday morning, that Prior will be undergoing "season-ending" surgery. Mind you, this will be before the season ever begins for Prior. We will be told that it is hoped that Prior will be ready for sprining training in 2008 or 2009. The broken record that is Prior's career is getting very old.

Unlike a lot of Cub fans, I'm not wildly delirous about Matt Murton. He is a solidly non-spectacular ballplayer. Adding Cliff Floyd to the left field mix strengthens the offense considerably, to include providing a desperately needed left-handed stick. If it were up to me, Alfonso Soriano would play center and the underrated Jacque Jones would stay in right. But it isn't up to me and that isn't going to be the game plan.

Regarding my lifetime partner Mark Prior, please rest assured that he is doing fine. Right now he is spending quality time with his newborn baby. But he assures me that we will both report to spring training on time. The plan is for him to start out by throwing my nephew, Blue Washcloth, for three weeks before graduating up to me. With any luck Mark will win the ERA championship in the Arizona Towel League in 2007. There is stiff competition coming out of Oakland in the form of Rich Harden and his Bath Towel, but Mark and I do feel that 2007 will still be a special year for us.

This is the shoulder problem Mark Prior has. It is described as a "looseness" in his shoulder joint that is arthritic in nature, and doctors like James Andrews in Birmingham and Lewis Yocum in L. A. recommended in mid-October that Prior rest his shoulder for four-to-six weeks, and then begin an off-season strengthening program. Prior is also supposed to work with Larry Rothschild on refining his mechanics. If that doesn't work, then surgery would be the "last resort."

Yeah, Phil, but isn't is pretty much a foregone conclusion that plan "A" is not going to work? I mean, given Mark's history, what would you say the chances are that he will not need surgery? It has to be less than 50%, don't you think? I mean, rest and strengthening has never worked before. Why should we expect it to work now?

The news then didn’t sound very encouraging. For a guy that has had as much rest as he has had over the last couple years I don’t think MORE rest is going to fix whatever is wrong with him. Being on the DL doesn't necessarily mean you're "resting." Physical rehabilitation can actually be a very physically exhausting process, and since Prior was trying to get back on the mound up until the very end of 2006, I doubt he spent much time fully resting his shoulder. Besides, I don't think the 4-6 weeks of resting this offseason is supposed to make Prior all better; it's the time after the rest when he works on building up strength in the right muscles that's supposed to get him back into pitching shape.

There's no guarantee that Floyd strengthens the offense. Murton was better than Floyd last year and it's very likely he'll be better in 2007 as well. It's also very likely that Murton will outproduce Jacque next year.

Mark Prior's problems are equal parts physical and mental. And nobody is going to dissuade me to the contrary. Prior is dead to me. And I've got to believe that he is finally and mercifully dead to Jim Hendry too. The Cubs are not counting on Prior to do anything in 2007. That much is clear.

Re: Matt Murton. Look, I like the guy. But bottom line is there is nothing exceptional about his game. He's a marginal outfielder, restricted to one position on the field, doesn't run well, and is doubtful ever to be a prime time run producer. If Jim Hendry's mandate is to go for broke in 2007, then adding Cliff Floyd as platoon partner makes loads of sense. A healthy Floyd can rake. The guy has lots to prove, will be playing for the chance for one more big contract after 2007 and will be returning to his hometown of Chicago. I like his odds of having a quality year in left field for the Cubs.

I reralize TCR is on West Coast time but the Chicago Tribune had an intresting tidbit regarding the Cubs outfireld situation that includes JJ being traded. Again its probably more rumor than anything but I thoought I would share "Hendry declined comment on a Tribune report that the Cubs were closing in on an agreement with free-agent outfielder Cliff Floyd. Cubs sources say the two sides have yet to close a deal, although sources close to Floyd indicate he has told friends he soon will be signing with the Cubs. The team has examined Floyd's medical records and may be waiting to deal Jacque Jones before getting Floyd under contract." http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-061220c…

STEVE: "I think Jacque’s arm was bad in Minnesota, but the turf didn’t slow down his grounders. Instead of a ten hopper to second it was a two hopper. I thought I heard somewhere that Jacque was playing with bone chips in his throwing arm." Thanks for your opinions - I was hoping for more than heresay on the matter. Maybe someone who saw him consistently in Minn. play. The "bonechips" I do believe I read something to this effect too... I just can't recall it now, however.

A little Murton/Floyd comparison: v RHP (2006): Murton 352PA, .295/.359/.456 Floyd  281PA, .266/.342/.423 v LHP (2006): Murton 156PA, .301/.385/.485 Floyd   84PA, .179/.274./.357 at Wrigley: Murton 246PA, .330/.404/.514 (2006) Floyd  110PA, .221/.318/.379 (Career) 2006 2nd Half: Murton 231PA, .319/.390/.522 Floyd  134PA, .236/.291/.390

Murton doesn't run well? What the hell? Since 2005, he's tallied about the equivalent of one full season's worth of AB's and has 5 triples. He's also been successful in 7 of 10 SB attempts. He runs very good. Not a "run producer"... who cares, he posted a .911 OPS post ASB last year.

Hey Silent Towel: I appreciate your convictions on Murton..but did you see his second half last year? Did you see how he re-adjusted to the league after they adjusted to him? He was 5 of 7 in stolen bases, and I don't remember any gaffes on the basepaths...he gets on base, he hit for a solid average, and had some pop. He may never hit 40 HR's in a season, but I wouldn't rule out 20-25. He's 10 years younger than Floyd, and most importantly, he is healthy!

Why trade Jacque Jones? If you discount his lousy throwing arm the guy is actually a good ballplayer. Nice run production, nice power, good outfield range, good speed, a much needed left handed bat. And Jones has the aptitude to play center field, which is a far cry better than any of the other options being bandied about for that position. Jones has a right to be ticked off for how he was treated by some Cub fans. Lets kiss and make up. We need this guy. Unless of course your heart goes pitter patter for the idea of some veteran stiff like Steve Finley patrolling in center.

Jacque doesn't bring nice "run production" because he doesn't get on base enough. Also, he just had a career year and the odds are good that he goes back to being the .785 OPS player he generally has been.

Reaction... Matt Murton...look, I like the guy, but he is non spectacular to below average in every phase of the game outside perhaps OBP. If Jim Hendry is going to operate under the mandate of trying to win in 2007, then adding Cliff Floyd makes sense. Look at Floyd's production in 2005. Then think about what he can add in complement to Matt Murton in left and quite possibly at 1st base if, God forbid, the health of Derrek Lee's daughter results in him missing signfiicant playing time. Jacque Jones...what's wrong with keeping a good ballplayer signed to a good contract, especially when you some up his positive attributes. I say nothing. Jones is way better option for center field than any of the other dreadful options being considered.

One final thought on Murton... Nobody has said (including Hendry) that adding Clff Floyd means subtracting Matt Murton.

ARM — December 21, 2006 @ 9:09 am Yeah, Phil, but isn’t is pretty much a foregone conclusion that plan “A�? is not going to work? I mean, given Mark’s history, what would you say the chances are that he will not need surgery? It has to be less than 50%, don’t you think? I mean, rest and strengthening has never worked before. Why should we expect it to work now? ================================ ARM: I have very little confidence that Mark Prior will pitch next year. I anticipate he will not be ready to pitch in Spring Training, will be left at Extended Spring Training at Fitch Park when the Cubs break camp, will spend April & May at EXST, then he'll have shoulder surgery sometime in June or July, and then he'll be non-tendered next December 12th. What happens after that? I'm guessing he'll probably sign an incentive-laden deal with SD for 2008, and will be to the Padres in '08 what Wade Miller was to the Cubs last season. Or I could be wrong.

Roster... Does anybody dispute the following from happening? Lineup...Soriano (RF), DeRosa (2nd), Lee (1st), Ramirez (3rd), Floyd/Murton (LF), Barrett/Blanco (Cat), New Centerfielder, Izturis (SS) Bench...Murton, Pagan, Ward (ugh), Blanco, Theriot, Another Middle Infielder Rotation...Z, Lilly, Marquis (ugh), Hill, Miller Pen...Howry, Dumpster, Wood, Eyre, Cotts, Ohlman

The Cubs have released some minor league pitchers who were either unable to return from injuries or who did not figure in their plans for 2007: Ryan Bicondoa Stephen Bronder Jose Caridad Roger Evenson Kyle Holden Isaac Pavlik Robert Ransom Jose Yepez The Cubs have also signed 33-year old veteran MLB (222 games, mostly with LAD) C-3B-1B-LF-RF-RHPH Mike Kinkade to a minor league contract, and he will presumably get an NRI to ST.

Silent Towel - are you basing this opinion off of watching him play or off of his numbers? Either way, I completely disagree with your assessment. His speed is average at worst -- probably a bit above average. He also seems to have some baserunning smarts (aside from the occasional rookie brainfart), which means he can get a lot out of his speed. His defense is average and there's room for improvement. Like Ramirez, his confidence with the glove seems to be tied to his confidence at the plate. He was looking solidly above average in LF last season until his bat fell apart in June. He's a professional hitter. Excellent plate discipline. He's shown he can drive outside pitches to the opposite field, pull inside pitches out of the park, and take a walk if he isn't seeing strikes, which doesn't leave any real holes for a pitcher to exploit. He's solid against RHP and kills LHP. He probably has 20HR+ power right now and power tends to develop as a player approaches 30.

he is non spectacular to below average in every phase of the game outside perhaps OBP. First of all, what a shame it would be for the Cubs to have a guy who isn't below average in OBP for a change. Second, not only is he above average for OBP he's above average for Slugging too, especially when you consider his age, experience and contract. You give me a guy who is above average in both OBP and SLG, you've got yourself a solid hitter. Floyd and Jones on the otherhand are both nothing but average players, who are well below average in many aspects of their game. Why one would want to say that Floyd is needed for the Cubs to win in 07, because Murton is a below average ballplayer just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

my thoughts on Mark Prior. The diagnosis of what is/was wrong with Mark Prior is the biggest issue I have. The only dx that has been reported on for his shoulder woes is subscapular tendonitis which is a non-surgical condition that responds to rest/rehab without surgery. That muscle is the front muscle of the rotator cuff. When Tom Gordon was a Cub he tore the infraspinatus muscle (also unusual but he did recover without surgery and pitched late that season...it was the injury that led to the Clement/Alfonseca for D-Train trade). So if Prior isn't able to pitch by spring then either the docs taking care of MP haven't sorted out what's wrong with him yet or for privacy reasons haven't disclosed what is wrong. I suspect the latter and if that is the case, we may not learn what wrecked him unless there is a breach of his doctor-patient confidentiality by some one who can access that type of info. Of course in 2005 it was an achilles tendonitis that set him down, so it's been a plethora of nonsurgical problems. I still suspect we don't know what is behind all his ailments. And I'm NOT implying Manny Alexander befriended him back then either.

Did you see this bit in Sully's article last night? Bush will help streamline the office, dealing with some scouting reports and allowing Hendry to concentrate on other duties. His believes statistical analysis and scouting reports go hand in hand. Bush is not a believer in the so-called "Moneyball" approach that stresses raw data over a scout's-eye view of a player. I like it. I'd rather watch how a guy plays the game for say... 2-3 games than see a career's worth of stats. There are just way too many things that the stats don't tell you.

he is non spectacular to below average in every phase of the game outside perhaps OBP. Silent Towel...you have an odd perception of Murton. I would say that Murton has plus speed (or can white players not run fast?), average defense, great plate discipline, good contact, solid power. You dont put up a 910 OPS by being below average in every phase of the game other than OBP.

Look, I don't agree with Jim Hendry's strategy of going for broke in 2007 (hint...he's doing it to save his job). But right or wrong, the Cubs are operating under the delusion that they can be a playoff team in 2007. That being the case, then adding Cliff Floyd to the short-term outfield mix makes sense. Floyd is a deluxe run producer from the left side of the plate, when healthy. Which, of couse, is a big caveat. The forward progress of Matt Murton won't be compromised. Obviously, the Cubs wouldn't be pursuing Floyd if they were sold on the fact that Murton can be a quality 140 game type run producer in left field.

Silent Towel: Barring injuries, I'd say that's pretty close to the likely Cubs '07 Opening Day roster. However, nobody goes with less than 12 pitchers anymore, so Michael Wuertz would be in the bullpen, and I don't think there will be more than one back-up middle infielder, and that one will be Theriot. I also have a different opinion of Daryle Ward than you have. Ward was hands-down THE best PH in MLB last season (Wes Helms and Geoff Blum were probably 2-3), and if he is used mainly in that role, he should improve the bench a lot. Conversely, Cliff Floyd is 0-12 as a PH the last three seasons.

Today, according to a Baltimore newspaper Cliff Floyd may be seriously listening to offers from the Orioles. Jim Hendry is holding off signing Floyd as he waits for someone to take Jacque Jones in a far trade. Hendry doesn't want to clog the 40-man active roster by signing Floyd and doesn't want to move anyone off the roster to make room for him. As the clock keeps ticking Cliff Flyd may be an Oriole before the end of this weekend (Christmas).

CUBSTER: What does the term "looseness" in the shoulder mean? What's loose, and besides surgery, how can it be "tightened"? Does the shoulder get progressively "looser" with use where it might fall off like a tire where the lug nuts are loose? O'Neal mentioned "arthritic'" in his comments. Can Prior pitch with this "looseness" as long as he can stand the pain/discomfort, or is it like arthritis, where it will only get worse, with the pain increasing over time?

Also "Floyd is a deluxe run producer" ??? He's driven in 100 runs 1 time, and 90+ 2 times, and that's in a 13 year career....scored 100 runs once, ....he's damaged goods, who may drive in 85 runs this year, or he may tear his Achilles heel, and miss 90 games. Who knows? He's on the downside of a nice career, and should not be starting for the Cubs.

I imagined that Murton would top off as a Sandberg type offensive player. Maybe even better he has a bigger frame than Ryno at that age.

cubsbaseball — December 21, 2006 @ 10:32 am Today, according to a Baltimore newspaper Cliff Floyd may be seriously listening to offers from the Orioles. Jim Hendry is holding off signing Floyd as he waits for someone to take Jacque Jones in a far trade. Hendry doesn’t want to clog the 40-man active roster by signing Floyd and doesn’t want to move anyone off the roster to make room for him. As the clock keeps ticking Cliff Flyd may be an Oriole before the end of this weekend (Christmas). ================================== CUBS BASEBALL: I hope that's true. I like Cliff Floyd, but at this point in his career, I think he would be better off being a platoon DH in the American League. If the Cubs indeed want to give Murton an occasional day off against the N. L.'s best RHP starters (Carpenter, Oswalt, Smoltz, Schmidt, et al), that's fine, but I would prefer somebody else other than Floyd be the guy that gives Murton a rest. Even Angel Pagan would be OK for that purpose.

VOCAL TOWEL: "the Cubs are operating under the delusion that they can be a playoff team in 2007." Sorry, I don't agree with this at all. It is not delusional, with the NLC the way it is, and the improvements PLUS the addition of injured players (the 100 RBI-Man DLee) and improved defense, AND an excellent manager - why can't this team have an equal chance as either Houston or the Fardinals?

*We didn’t get Hojo from the Mets did we? And how does another team’s front office force you to sign a FA? * I see that HoJo played for the Rocks before the Cubs, eh? Anywho, I blame the Mets for either: a) not signing Floyd & Johnson to lifetime contracts or b) not thoroughly using up Floyd & Johnson and them taking them behind the barn and putting them down.

I respectfully disagree with the lofty forecasts that some of you have for Matt Murton. He's an okay ballplayer. Nothing more, nothing less. Actually, a great comparison may be Lou Piniella himself. Sweet Lou was a good complementary outfielder during his days in Kansas City and then during the glory years of the Yankees in the 70's. Good right handed hitter, but without a whole lot of pop. His best use was as a platoon partner with the plethora of left-handed hitters the Yanks had at the time. Having Cliff Floyd in 2007 doesn't mean the Cubs have given up on Murton. Rather it means they aren't convinced he is a quality enough everyday player, at least at this stage of his career. Sorry, but I can't argue with that logic. And thing is, the Cubs NEED left handed hitting, especially if they foolishly shed Jacque Jones.

*Howard Johnson of the three time variety of being a 30/30 guy? C * You mean 30 hits/30 walks--because that's what he got the year he played in Chicago. He hadn't hit above .240 in the previous 3 years. He was done, like toast, just like Floyd is now. It's stupid to waste a roster spot on some washed-up retread simply because he's a "home-town kid". Buy a ticket to look at the park like everybody else, hometowner.

Daryl Ward...ugh Ward is incapable of playing the outfield and is a brutal defensive 1st baseman. So what then is his role other than to pinch hit 75 times or so a year? Adding Ward really inhibits the flexibilty afforded Sweet Lou. And it probably means the Cubs need to go with a six man bench as opposed to five. I don't like the move, regardless of Ward's ability to mash from the left side of the plate.

Thanks, AZ Phil and cubster for the Prior comments. With all the name-calling, there has been precious little in the way of fact in regards to Prior. I doubt he'll pitch in 2007, and if his injury is "arthritic" in nature, that doesn't sound good for his long-term prospects either.

Apparently, because of his past relationship with Floyd and because Floyd is a Chicago-area native, Hendry is thinking about signing Floyd and only Floyd. Meanwhile, Trot Nixon, a player with a similar skill set (and a similar injury-prone nature), hasn't been mentioned at all. This whole Floyd situation rings of the "burning a hole in my pocket" theory of budgetary management that AZ Phil talked about last year after the Colvin/Samardzjia draft strategy. He has a budget, and he HAS to spend that much, or he'll never see that money again.

BJS: "Also, he (Jacque Jones) just had a career year" 2006 was NOT a career year for Jones. Go back and check out his stats in 2002 where Jones did better in almost every meaningful stat.

Manny...lol.....it may not have been a career year, but, at age 31, it may be a bit much to expect a repeat of 2006. His last 2 seasons were both decidedly worse in avg, OBP, and SLG. You are right though..not a career year.

Bleeding Blue: "not only is he (Murton) above average for OBP he’s above average for Slugging too" What list are you looking at? Murton, according to ESPN.com sortable stats, was 15th in SLG among the 21 LF's who qualified last year in MLB. That is not "above average", and actually it is below average. And if you look at his OPS, he ranks 14th. Again, below average. Now I think Murton can be a nice little player. He should be given a chance to play this year, but also let's be a little realistic. He wasn't an above average LF or anything last year. He very well might get better and turn into one, but as of yet, he is not.

dave: "You dont put up a 910 OPS by being below average in every phase of the game other than OBP." He didn't put that number up for 2006, just for the last 64 games he played in. I think we need to be careful thinking Murton is now a .908 OPS guy and expect that from him for 2007.

"The forward progress of Matt Murton won’t be compromised. Obviously, the Cubs wouldn’t be pursuing Floyd if they were sold on the fact that Murton can be a quality 140 game type run producer in left field. " Why won't putting Murton on the bench against right handers comprimise his development? At at what point in the last few years did you decide that the Cubs' braintrust is the best determinite of how good a player is going to be?

He didn’t put that number up for 2006, just for the last 64 games he played in. I think we need to be careful thinking Murton is now a .908 OPS guy and expect that from him for 2007. Yep, it's almost as absurd is claiming his .809 OPS for the season is a good measure of his abilities...

Vorare: "Yep, it’s almost as absurd is claiming his .809 OPS for the season is a good measure of his abilities…" I would think the entire season of stats would be closer than a couple month stretch. I could see your complaint if someone was just using 1st half numbers, but if someone is looking at yearly numbers, you can't fault him on that.

Vorare: "a good measure of his abilities…" I wouldn't say any 1 season stat would be a good measure of a players abilities. It would be a good judge of how he did in that particular season though.

I would think the entire season of stats would be closer than a couple month stretch. I could see your complaint if someone was just using 1st half numbers, but if someone is looking at yearly numbers, you can’t fault him on that. Manny, we've been through this before. It simply isn't fair to judge Murton by his 2006 season line when that line includes two incredibly bad non-representative months. Perhaps it would be fair if those two months came at the end of the season demonstrating a downward trend, but they didn't. A hole developed in his approach, he corrected it, he excelled with a 900+ OPS for the rest of the season. Maybe you'd be more familiar with his progress if you actually used those season tickets of yours rather than scalping them.

Vorare: "A hole developed in his approach, he corrected it, he excelled with a 900+ OPS for the rest of the season." So you think Murton is unquestionably now a .900+ OPS guy? We can just write it down as he will do that for the entire year next year? I wouldn't do that, and I think people who do are just overly optimistic. IT might happen, but to say he is a .900 OPS guy without question is going too far. "Maybe you’d be more familiar with his progress if you actually used those season tickets of yours rather than scalping them." HA HA...Jealous??? But i am sure I watched just as many, if not more, Cubs games than you did last year. So please don't pull out that childish weak ass crap.

I think the "name-calling" about Prior results from facts, ie, the fact that this guy is almost always sick for one reason or another. The specifics of his illness still are are not really known. But, again, it is a fact that this guy is almost always sick or claiming to be sick so the "name-calling," if that is what you want to call it, is hardly surprising or unwarranted. I mean, this guy has become richer than most of us will ever be in just the last three years while he has almost always been sick.

The Real Neal: "And you guys think I am the only viscious ass on the board." Oh no, you are just one of many....:)

So you think Murton is unquestionably now a .900+ OPS guy? We can just write it down as he will do that for the entire year next year? I wouldn’t do that, and I think people who do are just overly optimistic. IT might happen, but to say he is a .900 OPS guy without question is going too far. I'll put it this way Manny (and I've probably done this before). Here's Murton's line prior to and following his horrible May/June '06 stretch. Pre:  .309/.383/.493 (876 OPS) Post: .329/.409/.526 (935 OPS) Unquestionably a 900+ OPS guy? I never said that. But he's certainly much closer to a 900+ OPS guy than the 800 OPS guy you like to claim he is. So please don’t pull out that childish weak ass crap. Seeing you call anyone else childish is seriously funny. Thanks for the giggle.

My take on Jones: He makes a living off of starting pitchers who think it must be a typo when the scouting report says, Don't throw this guy a low outside fastball. But like many wrong-way hitters he has a hole in his swing that can be exploited by off-speed pitches down and in. This, not lefties, is his weakness. The bleacher fans in right started booing him not because he started the season 0 for thirteen but because he was missing those aforementioned down-and-in pitches by a foot, and they thought they had already said goodbye to Corey Patterson. I don't think he asked to be traded because the fans were mean to him. I think he asked to be traded because after Soriano signed, Hendry told him that he was no longer a starter, and was he okay with that? Hendry has been wearing me out with these lefthanded hitters--Choi, Hollandsworth, Jones--whose power is to left. I guess a while ago he decided that the wind usually blows out to left. Anyway, Floyd is more normal, and I'm glad.

What list are you looking at? Well, I'm not just cherry picking the stats and the parts of the sentances that I might want to argue with. Murton is above average in Slugging "Especially when you consider his Age, Experience, and Contract." I'm sure you accidently left that last part out. But a 462 Slg Pct in a player's first 600 MLB at bats is well above average. But even if you only want to look at what he did last year, giving extra weight to his slump, and ignore how he improved over the course of the year, he's still above average. He was the NL's 7th best LF Slugger last year among "qualified" Left Fielders, being that there are 16 teams in the NL, I'd say that's above average. Saying he's "below average" because he was not among the tops of those who qualfied is beyond dishonest, because you are only comparing him to the very best players at the position. If you are the dumbest Nobel Prize winner, you most likely still have an above average intelect.

What? When Soriano was signed, Jones was told he no longer is a starter? I have never seen this reported. We lost Pierre and gained Soriano. How does that make Jones not a starter?

I agree with most of you on the Floyd front. If Jim Hendry has a money burning a hole in his pocket, why not spend it on a RH platoon partner for Jack Jones? Floyd to me seems like a less effective in every way Jones.

Vorare: "Thanks for the giggle." Thanks for the uncalled for shot...

The bleacher fans in right started booing him not because he started the season 0 for thirteen but because he was missing those aforementioned down-and-in pitches by a foot I might buy that if the booing hadn't started the first week of the season. Cub fans wanted a major star in the outfield, and instead they got Jones. The decided were going to take their frustrations out on him before he swung at a single pitch. Sadly, I'm already seeing the same sort of feelings expressed towards Ted Lilly, whose biggest crime so far is that he's not named Zito or Schmidt.

Vorare: "But he’s certainly much closer to a 900+ OPS guy than the 800 OPS guy you like to claim he is." I don't think he is a .800 OPS guy, but he was roughly that last year. I do think he will improve on that number this year. But if someone thinks just because he had a .900 OPS for the last 65 games he played, that we will duplicate that for the entire season in 2007, I think that is a bit unrealistic and overly optimistic in my opinion. I can see .850 OPS as realistic.

Does anyone else remember when floyd hit 3 homers last year to come back and beat the cubs. Pretty impressive.

Bleeding Blue: "Saying he’s “below average�? because he was not among the tops of those who qualfied is beyond dishonest, because you are only comparing him to the very best players at the position. If you are the dumbest Nobel Prize winner, you most likely still have an above average intelect." What?? Should I compare him to players in AA or the local softball league? I compared him to other MLB LF's. Sorry, but that is not being dishonest. Now if you want to just look at NL, then he did take 7th, but too bad only 9 players qualified. If you want to look an non-qualified LF's too, just a head's up, Freddie Bynum had a better SLG percentage.

Bleeding Blue- Yeah that whole Nobel Prize argument doesn't make any sense. Yes, Murton is "above average" LF if you want to compare him to every human walking the face of the earth. Or you can use AaronB's funny analogy.

Your missing the point Manny, it is called player development not player instant gratification. The choice is between a 34 year old broken down of a man Cliff Floyd who might be around 1 year tops, and a 25 year old hitter who has shown he can handle hitting at the major league level and might be around for the next 5 years. Murton can atleast improve, which he has already shown. Floyd looks like he is getting worse, and besides don't we hear a lot of talk on this site about how players don't age well past age 34? One player is a band-aid, the other is a possible long term solution. Stability and development versus the 1 year rental and the unknown beyond that. I am tired of band-aid players like Floyd who are in the mold of Howard Johnson, Todd Hundley, and Gary Gaetti. The team finally has a young player form the minors who actually exceeded expectations and what do I read on the message boards? How we want to replace him with a guy that can't stay healthy and on the downside of his career. If hitting .297 with a .365 OBP isn't good enough for Murton then what the hell do you guys expect out of Felix Pie? Nothing less than hitting .330 from Pie huh? He might be lucky to hit .250 with 150 strikeouts.

Floyd to me seems like a less effective in every way Jones. Floyd's a better hitter than Jones, more power, more patience. His defense is worse though. He's a Chicago boy, fans will probably love him. I don't think it's set in stone quite yet that Jones is gone. It doesn't seem like Hendry is going to move just to move him and the market seems dry right now. It might be something they revisit in spring training when holes start popping up on other teams and if Pie shows something in spring training.

hendry might be scared off by the whole holly/dubois thing, but really, murton isnt holly/dubois...he's got proven adaptable skills. that said, an extra 3-5m into a guy that might take 150-200ab's from murton (only to give him 50+ of those back pinch hitting) isnt that bad of an insurance signing considering how much has been poured into the team so far. murton will cost 360-400K in 08 just as in 07 and it seem the straight platoon isnt really being considered.

If it comes down to a choice between the Orioles and Cubs for Floyd, it would appear theat the O's provide a far better chance for regular playing time. In addition to the DH, Floyd would be the LH complement to Kevin Millar at 1B (hardly a DLee), and to Jay Payton in LF. That's a lot more AB's than he would likely get here, and the Orioles are unlikely to pay him significantly less than Hendry. I'm betting that he signs with the Orioles, especially if Hendry is still watiing to deal JJ.

MikeC: "Your missing the point Manny, it is called player development not player instant gratification. The choice is between a 34 year old broken down of a man Cliff Floyd who might be around 1 year tops, and a 25 year old hitter who has shown he can handle hitting at the major league level and might be around for the next 5 years." I think you are missing the point. I don't think anywhere did I talk about Cliff Floyd replacing Murton. I was just talking about reasonable realistic expectations of Murton for 2007 and looking back at 2006. And I agree, I don't like the idea of a platoon with an aging, over the hill player or with someone who is barely better than Murton from the left side of the plate. The only way I want Murton out of LF for 2007 is if they got a big bat who can or will only play LF OR is they can move him to get a top-tier starting pitcher.

What?? Should I compare him to players in AA or the local softball league? I compared him to other MLB LF’s. Sorry, but that is not being dishonest. Now if you want to just look at NL, then he did take 7th, but too bad only 9 players qualified. Maybe you should compare him to all NL Left Fielders, not just the 9 best. I guess since only 9 Left Fielders qualified in the NL, the other 7 teams must just have decided not to use a Left Fielder last year? That's essentially what you are saying when you claim that Murton was "below average" because he's only 7th among the 9 who qualified. Ignoring the fact that far more than 9 players saw regular playing time in Left Field last year. Using your logic, Adam Dunn is also "below average" because he was 6th in the NL among the 9 who you want to count. I'm also sorry that the Nobel Prize and even the "Tallest Midget" analagy went over your head. I'll try to dumb it down for you a little bit. If you are the dumbest Physicist to win the Nobel Prize in Physics, you are still probably one of the smartest Physicists in the World. Is that specific enough for you understand? Or do you still think you'd have to compare them to every human on earth?

Here's what you can expect from Matt Murton: Minor League Career: .309 .380 .451 .831 Major League Career: .303 .370 .462 .832 He's been consistent at all levels for five years now as a pro and his upside is undeniable. Murton led the team in batting average and overcame an (ass)hole in his swing when Dusty Baker tried to turn him into a pull hitter. It was Baker's idea that Murton, a rookie who hits to all fields, could actually replace DLee's production if only he would turn on pitches yank them out. Baker then undermined the project by shouting about it as loud as he could to the media. Opposing managers and pitchers paid attention. This, of course, made Murt predictable and created a hole in his swing on the outside corner that didn't used to be there. Everyone seems to have forgotten that MM got out of the slump by ignoring all the BAD advice he was getting (Ron Santo was notably offended that Murt wasn't interested in his "help") and went back to hitting the ball where it was pitched.

Bleeding Blue: "Is that specific enough for you understand? Or do you still think you’d have to compare them to every human on earth?" Yeah that makes tons of sense...thanks for clearing that up. I can see the logical comparison now (wink wink)

Rambling thoughts... 1. Way, way, way too much focus on the wondrous virtues of Matt Murton. He is an okay ballplayer. That's it. He isn't the next Grady Sizemore or the next Mark Grace. Rather, he is a guy who will probably hit around .290, hit 15-20 home runs and drive in 75 while providing mediocre play in left field and little else. In a perfect workd, Murton is a swell guy to give 350-400 at bats to in the # 7 hole. 2. Mark Prior. The biggest malady Prior suffers from is acute case of vaginitis. Does he have problems with his shoulder/arm/achilles heel? I'm sure he did or still does. But the real problem is much bigger. Forget about him. Fixating on his return is a wasted exercise. Mercifully, Jim Hendry has finally come to realize this.

I'm glad I could help. I'd hate to have someone who posts on TCR so regularly thinking that if you don't compare a MLB player to the very best of the best that you have to compare him to the players on your company softball team. You'd think they would have taught that somewhere along the way at Penn State, but I guess a public university education just isn't what it used to be.

Rather, he is a guy who will probably hit around .290, hit 15-20 home runs and drive in 75 Yeah, because most players who hit over 300, with 20 HRs and 75 RBI in their first 600 MLB ABs ususally don't improve. Its only rational to think that Murton has hit his peak performance at age 25, and it will be all downhill from here.

Bleeding Blue, you are entitled to your opinion on Matt Murton. And I am entitled to mine. We fundamentally disagree regarding his upside. You see a very good player in the making, I see a simply OK player in the present and future. Let it go.

Murton is good young talent but I don't agree he's second coming as many of you obviously do.

I agree with Silent Towel on Prior. Something is screwed up in his head. Joe morgan was right to call him out on being a wus. I am growing sick of Prior always being hurt. As all of us are. Hendry is stuck. He almost has to keep him forever becasue of his potential. Imagine letting him go and he wins 20 games a year for 10 years in a row injusry free. That's what would happen if he was trade/released. I can't imagine him making a killing in arbitration either. I love Prior, I really do. I ahve always been a fan, when he at least tries to play that is.

Towel, I just would like to know why you think that Murton has already reached his peak after his first season's worth of plate appearance? Do you think that most players start to decline at age 25 or is there something specific about Murton that leads you to believe that his first 600 ABs were a fluke and he will actually decline in the years ahead? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'd like to know what facts have caused you to reach this conclusion.

I do however think Murton will be a good one, given the chance, but as we have seen, Hendry is in it for now, and could care less about developing a player for later.

brendon harris DFA'd from the reds for those keeping track...making room for j.conine traded from the phillies.

I know how many of u feel about JJ and understandably so but does anyone else have a hint of excitement over the offence potetial if he's in CF? maybe he can't hack it defensivly but i think they'll give that a try fist and if he can't or there is an of injury then pie gets the call

i wouldn't mind Hendry taking a flyer on Harris. Stick him in the utility role so Cedeno can go back to Iowa to settle down. Harris isn't left handed, but he has a slick glove, and with the other boppers, who cares if he cant hit a lick. Jose Vizcaino stuck around for years not being able to swing the bat.

sorry, was under the impression that the new board auto-tinyurl'd stuff. btw...i really really like the new(ish) tinyurl "preview"...long overdue.

yeah, that's Prior for you. Makes a couple throws in spring training, feels some pain, says fuck it, it's not worth it damnit, I'm getting my millions. I enjoy being called out on every paper, radio site and turned on by the fans, it really helps my image and potential endorsement deals.... Let's just ignore that when he did pitch last year, he sucked. Why? Well because he was hurt and shouldn't have been pitching but tried to. So by all means, let's just get him a sports psychiatrist so you can mentally deal with the pain and everything will be the better.

Bleeding Blue, I'll ignore the indirect cheapshots peppered throughout your message. Your guilty of selective intepretation of Matt Murton's narrow sample size of major league stats. On the plus side, Murton has a nice compact swing and the ability to hit to all fields. He also appears to make good adjustments at the plate. If he were a capable defensive 2nd baseman, he'd be a nice player on a roster. Sort of a Mark Loretta type. But fact is Murton plays left field, and only left field. And he's simply not that good of a left fielder. And he doesn't run particularly well. And I don't see a player who will ever be much of a run producer. I don't really care if Murton is 25 or 22 or 32. To me, he is what he is and will settle in to simply an OK ballplayer. Importantly, there is not one single glaring strength to his game (e.g., speed, arm) to compensate for his non-descriptness otherwise. Do many 25 year old players have wondrous upsides? Sure they do. But Murton? Not in my mind. Nor apparently in Jim Hendry's mind either. Matt Murton is Lou Piniella circa 1978. Or Mark Loretta circa 2006. Or right-handed version of Todd Hollandsworth circa 1999.

no automatic tinyurl, although that would be cool. It does create an auto-link and automatically creates a new window if you hit the link though.

Bleeding Blue: "Its only rational to think that Murton has hit his peak performance at age 25, and it will be all downhill from here." Can you say Marcus Giles?

reg. line up as i c it 1 soriano rf 2 izturis ss 3 lee 1b 4 rami 3b 5 jj cf 6 murton lf 7 barret c 8 derossa 2b

Manny knows the haps. Giles number 2. BUT, Murton has an upside. He is still a yoot.

"So by all means, let’s just get him a sports psychiatrist so you can mentally deal with the pain and everything will be the better." Actually, he'd be better served if we go get him a gynecologist to treat his vaginitis. Sorry, but Prior deserves few breaks from the Cub organization and fans. It's going on four seasons in a row where Prior comes to spring training broken down, often time with ailment that the Cub medical staff can't even accurately diagnosis. Prior has stolen from the Cubs since 2004. If he really is as broken down as suggested, then he should retire from baseball and give back the checks.

I must be getting old, what the hell did any of that in #196 mean other than Murton having upside.

Funny how when WIll Ohman was injured, everyone wrote him off as a failure. Prior gets injured, and he will win the CY Young next year. How does that work?

"...I’m betting that he signs with the Orioles, especially if Hendry is still watiing to deal JJ." Personally, I have no problem with this. As CRUNCH would say, "The guy is just an achilles injury away from ending his career." I would say Hendry for once is in a decent position with JJ under contract. Coming off a terrific year - great salary for 2 more years - fairly athletic - LH bat. He does not need to be in any hurry.

And I don’t see a player who will ever be much of a run producer. I don’t really care if Murton is 25 or 22 or 32. To me, he is what he is and will settle in to simply an OK ballplayer. Importantly, there is not one single glaring strength to his game (e.g., speed, arm) to compensate for his non-descriptness otherwise. Do many 25 year old players have wondrous upsides? So if a ballplayer isn't fast (Murton btw has above average speed), average defensively, and only plays one position, he can't excel with his bat? It's okay to have hunches, but just admit it's a hunch. This logic is asinine.

VOCAL TOWEL: "If he really is as broken down as suggested, then he should retire from baseball and give back the checks." Boy would I LOVE to see this as adopted MLB policy! Mike Brown on the Bears, too!

Borowski knows the haps too. Case in point: Cliff Floyd he could never play any one position very well, had little speed after his first few years, but he can still swing the stick.

Thankfully, Penn State is not really a public university. But someone as educated as yourself would know that already, right? D'oh. I did, but obviously I forgot. Then again, I've never really had a reason to care about Penn State. But if someone can graduate from PSU without being able to figure out that there is a middle ground between looking at a sample size of only the top tier of a group and a sample size that includes the entire universe, then I guess there's a reason I never put much thought into that institution of "higher" education.

Funny how when WIll Ohman was injured, everyone wrote him off as a failure. Prior gets injured, and he will win the CY Young next year. How does that work? Maybe because Ohman didn't put up a Cy Young caliber season before getting hurt?

JoBo, did we watch the same ballplayer in 2006? I was at a dozen games at Wrigley (left field box) and watched countless others on the tube (at least partially). Where is this "above average" speed that you speak of for Matt Murton?!? Or the "average" defensive ability?!? Murton did not get good jumps on balls and was greatly aided by the presence of Juan Pierre's great range. And Murton's defense did not get incrementally better as the season went along. And in terms of labeling my assertations "a hunch," explain to me where all this power and run production potential comes from. I sure don't see it. Like I said, the guy is an okay ballplayer. But that's it. Criminy, some of you talk as if we have the next Billy Williams on hand.

good point vorare. I just couldnt think of a better substitute than Ohman. Still can't. Just wish Prior would suck it up just once when the team needs him. DOn't wait until after they are 30 games out and then be no healthier than when they were 3 out and try to come in and pitch then say "I'm here for the team". That is bs. If he was there for the team he would have been throwing hurt earlier in the year. It just flusters me. I can't express in words my frustrations.

Did the redesign bring the lurkers out of the closet or is the new site just driving new traffic to TCR?

Murton has above average speed, he's a good baserunner, don't let the whiteness fool you. He had like 10,000 infield hits in 2005 if you remember and was 18/23 in W. Tenn in 2005 with a manager who loved to run. He's not Carl Crawford, but he can steal a base, take an extra base and beat out a slow grounder.

I think towell has a pretty realistic stance on the cubs ond some other people a bit of a rose colored view

Okay above average speed is generous, knew I would get jumped on for that as soon as I posted it. Murton hustles his *** off, so I give him more credit than he deserves with the legs. Doesn't detract from the fact that, with the exception of June, kid's done nothing but hit since coming to the bigs.

The scouting report on Murton has always been slightly above average speed with good baserunning skills.

i azl.wazysx heazrdc azbofve azfverazge sxpeedc azndc azrjm too but that isn't what i c in lf. he does hustle though

it depends on your definition of average speed I guess, average to me is Michael Barrett, a guy who will never steal a base but probably can score from 2nd on a single to the gap.

Ryno: "manny, on that ctdefenders website, are you in that picture of the front office staff?" Yeah, 2nd from left.

sorry comp troubles. i always heard above average speed and arm as well that just isn't what i c in lf but he does hustle

Real quick on Prior. Pure speculation. But if I'm in his shoes, and I see AJ Burnett and Adam Eaton getting big paydays, purely on potential, without actually ever doing anything, I'm going to take it off as soon as I feel any discomfort. Not really strain myself until I sign the big contract. Of course, very valid about how bad he was last year, and it seemed pretty evident that he was in pain. It just irritates me how he came up with these "perfect" mechanics, and has been as bad of an injury risk as Woody, who had been beating the crap out of his arm as long as he's been pitching.

#1 -- I agree with the earlier comment, Prior is dead to me and for all intentions I believe he's dead to Pinella as well. Our 5th starter (w/o any further trades or signings) is Miller or Marshall. #2 -- Jones isn't going anywhere before March 25th and the Pie situation is determined. I believe Murton, Pie, and Soriano is Hendry's preferred OF from left to right. Ward is the LH PH and might get 15-20 starts all season between 1B and LF #3 -- I don't see a situation where Murton doesn't get 350 to 400 ABs next year. Hendry will pick up some LH outfielder between now and opening day as CF insurance for Pie and platoon with Murton. I can't see that person being Floyd. If he's healthy, Floyd is going to want 400-450 ABs and how does that happen with the Cubs?

Nor apparently in Jim Hendry’s mind either. Sorry, I don't mean to belabour the point, but I was too busy to dig up this quote earlier. http://preview.tinyurl.com/yd4w7b "I'm very happy with Murton and have no intention of trading him," Hendry said of the young outfielder, who hit .297 in his first full big-league season with 13 home runs and 62 RBIs. "I think Murton is going to be a quality player. "I'd like to augment the outfield situation with some left-handed help, but not in any way is that a negative thought process toward Matt," Hendry added. "We're obviously a little too right-handed now. Hopefully, we can add some left-handed help, whether it be in the outfield or off the bench. There's absolutely no negatives to Murton. We all feel his better days are ahead of him, and he's got a chance to be a really, really good player. I don't plan on doing anything but giving him a chance to play a lot."

Penn State is defined as "state related." It was founded as one of the federal land grant institutions and since the late 1800 has recieved appropriations from the state legislature on a regular basis. Furthermore, state representatives, including the governor, are members of the Board of Trustees. It may not "really be a public institution" but it's also not really "private" either.

BARTMAN: WTF IS THIS?! "i azl.wazysx heazrdc azbofve azfverazge sxpeedc azndc azrjm too but that isn’t what i c in lf. he does hustle though" Try English. Its still the National language. Thanks.

"I’d rather watch how a guy plays the game for say… 2-3 games than see a career’s worth of stats. There are just way too many things that the stats don’t tell you." This is a good one. Watching a player for 2-3 games may tell you what a player can do. Looking at his career stats, at least offensively, will tell you what a player has done. If you're talking about projecting future performance, there's no argument. What a player has done is much more important than what he could do.

my laptop screwed up bonehead!! hence the appolagy. if I don't have it tilted just right it miss types.

For someone who went to 12 Cubs home games Towel, it's a shame you never got a chance to see Matt Murton in batting practice. If you had, you probably wouldn't be wondering where his power potential is.

so he can whap the crap out of a 65-75 mph meatball. once again I like matty alot i just don't c joe d in him at all as some people here must

What does the term “looseness�? in the shoulder mean? What’s loose, and besides surgery, how can it be “tightened�?? Does the shoulder get progressively “looser�? with use where it might fall off like a tire where the lug nuts are loose? O’Neal mentioned “arthritic’�? in his comments. Can Prior pitch with this “looseness�? as long as he can stand the pain/discomfort, or is it like arthritis, where it will only get worse, with the pain increasing over time? ------- Arizona Phil (reply to post #131): The shoulder joint can be loose/lax without any injury (just some people are loose jointed) but most pitchers by virtue of the repetitive throwing motion get some laxity. If the joint is too loose it can lead to instability where the ball and socket slip too far from stable positions and cause discomfort. Usually this type of laxity can be treated with strengthening exercises to give the shoulder more stability. There are surgical procedures to tighten this but in a pitcher who needs some laxity it is very likely to end his pitching career or at least make him a very different pitcher (can you say wily veteran from power pitcher?). I haven't heard anyone say Prior's problem is instability though. Instability can come from other specific problems too including labral tears like Wade Miller and Kerry Wood have had diagnosed. Arthritis means the cartilage coating the ends of the bone forming the shoulder joint (ball = humeral head, socket = glenoid) is wearing away so the normal cushioning is no longer present and leads to pain. I believe the most recent mlb player with this problem was Jeff Bagwell although I don't know of any pitchers who retired because of arthritic shoulders. I don't think Prior has shoulder arthritis, but when he was injured on the basepaths by running into Marcus Giles he did injure the AC joint (separated shoulder) so the AC joint may be getting some arthritis and can be a source of pain. If that is the problem then they would do an arthroscopic resection of the end of the clavicle (collarbone) to alleviate the pain. Weight lifters get this often. If he had that surgery, consider him out for a year. I doubt that is what is going on as it should have been addressed with the media and treated surgically already.

"He isn’t the next Grady Sizemore or the next Mark Grace. Rather, he is a guy who will probably hit around .290, hit 15-20 home runs and drive in 75 while providing mediocre play in left field and little else." Mark Grace hit .303 with 15-17 home runs while driving in 75-90. Offensively I would say Murton IS a poor man's Grace.

"I think towell has a pretty realistic stance on the cubs ond some other people a bit of a rose colored view" well, this isnt the viewfromthebleachers.com doom crew here, but seeing murton as a starter in LF and not thinking prior won't pitch effectively when healthy isnt really radical.

Manny…lol…..it may not have been a career year, but, at age 31, it may be a bit much to expect a repeat of 2006. Manny missed the point. Jacque is very unlikely to repeat his 2006. I know that technically 2002 was a better year, but it was just barely better than his 2006. They were almost identical seasons and the only 2 seasons in which he's topped an .800 OPS. He has never been a good "run producer".

The Orioles seem to be pursuing LaRoche in trade from the Braves, with Floyd as Plan B in case they can't get LaRoche.

Batting practice? Has it come to this? Defending a guy by referring to his batting practice power? Next someone's going to say Ohman should play center because he made a couple of nice catches shagging flies before some game in June.

Dude, Bleeding Blue, that was a lame cheap shot at Manny--not to mention public education. It's not like he's being an idiot, here. He's saying: "Matt Murton is not above average for a starting major league left fielder." While it would probably be more fair to compare to every left fielder in the major leagues (since the left fielders who get enough at bats at that position tend to be exceptionally good ones), the comparison is still perfectly fair. Jeez.

I think the batting practice remark was saying he has the power, it's a matter of translating it into his everday game. He'll be 26 next year, it's about the time when the power usually really starts showing in player's games on a more consistent level. He's had one freakin full season so far and people think he'll never get better or something.... He's not going to be pounding out 30+ on a whim, but anywhere between 20-30 should be reasonably expected if he played a full year.

Anyone else get the idea that the notion of Matt Murton having no upside smacks of some sort of racism? People claiming he's below average defensively, has no speed, and won't continue to improve even though he's only 25? I guarantee anyone who thinks that way, subconsciously at least, thinks that because he's a pasty redhead. How about these two players as a comparison: Player Age AB HR BA OBP SLG A 23 672 11 .296 .331 .450 B 24 595 20 .303 .370 .462 Now, if we had traded for Player A after his first full year in the majors, everyone would have creamed their shorts. Why? Because Player A is Carl Crawford. He may rack up a lot more SBs than Murton, but looking at those other numbers, Murton looks like the better hitter. Also, Murton's top 2 Most Similar Hitters through Age 24 (according to Baseball-Reference) are Kirk Gibson and Bobby Abreu. But yeah, he has no upside because he doesn't look like an athlete.

matt murton would be considered an above average bat playing in his proper position (given d.lee plays GG 1st). we NO LONGER live in an era where the SS hits like this and the CF hits like and only 1-3 catchers in the whole game hit, period. its about where you're at on your team and how well you fit in, not what your peers are doing...unless you're talking about fielding... with murton you got an average fielder...a guy who could easily get better given his work ethic and extreme ability to use coaching and actually translate it to something you can notice on the field (and at the plate as seen many times last season).

Here's another player's 2005 numbers. This guy plays SS, whereas Murton plays LF so it's not apples to apples, but just looking at the numbers these look like fairly similar players: Player Age AB HR BA OBP SLG OPS A 31 654 19 .309 .389 .450 .839 Murton 24 595 20 .303 .370 .462 .832 Crunch's view (which I agree with): "we NO LONGER live in an era where the SS hits like this and the CF hits like and only 1-3 catchers in the whole game hit, period." Player A is Derek Jeter. Can we please agree that Matt Murton is putting up some great numbers for essentially his first year in the majors, and has the potential to get even better? I'll take his numbers on my roster any day of the week.

murton will have a "worth" given his position less than a C/SS/etc, dont get me wrong there...but, that's a worth that materializes itself when its time to cut checks and make contracts. the way i see it...you look at what an individual player brings and their strength/weakness in the field and at the plate, but its more important what the entire pool of strengths/weaknesses from all the players bring to the team. a very boring performance by matt murton, playing in a non-vital defensive position (.275/.340 20hr 35double), would help a lot more than would hurt and combined with the entire team's performance would probably compliment the team effort effectively. he's not gonna hit 50+ like bonds, but then again bonds' teammates at 1st and 3rd will probably total what either of the cubs 1st or 3rd will probably hit.

While it would probably be more fair to compare to every left fielder in the major leagues... ...the comparison is still perfectly fair. Marshall, I don't disagree that its fine to compare a players to those who have qualified at a position. I don't think its fair to say a player is below average at something, because he is not in the top half of that small group. As I mentioned before, Adam Dunn would be a "Below Average Slugger" using that very limited criteria. But as far as questioning Manny's education, that's simply because he said the alternative to comparing Murton to qualifying LF was to compare him to members of a softball team or every human on earth. As he did in both posts 166 and 167.

[I think the batting practice remark was saying he has the power, it’s a matter of translating it into his everday game.] YEP, that's exactly what I was alluding to. The question was, where's he gonna get his power? The answer is, he's already got it. Power can't be faked.

"Matt Murton is Lou Piniella circa 1978. Or Mark Loretta circa 2006." "logleg matt does not have above average speed" "Floyd is a deluxe run producer from the left side of the plate, when healthy." "He’s a marginal outfielder, restricted to one position on the field, doesn’t run well, and is doubtful ever to be a prime time run producer." ----------------------------------------------------------- There is nothing to back up those statements. Murton was much better than Loretta (and Floyd) last year and he has above average speed by any measurement. He's the most disciplined hitter on the team besides Derrek Lee. There's also a very good chance that Murton posts a higher SLG% than Floyd. The Cubs have been pathetic in the OBP department and Murton is just the type of player the Cubs need who addresses their OBP issues.

well I don't know about a very good chance of Murton posting a higher SLG than Floyd, at least not versus righties. You assume Floyd won't see lefties at all.

As for Floyd being a "deluxe run producer"... he's topped 25 HR's just three times in his career and he's topped 100 RBI only once.

This is Mark Prior checking in - Regarding Comment #177 made by one Silent Towel - "Mark Prior. The biggest malady Prior suffers from is acute case of vaginitis." --- Silent Towel, you are my motivation, the reason i will exhaustively work to get back on the field. Thank you for opening my eyes -- and thank you for being a great Cub Fan, #22

Floyd will have to mash a shitload of HR's to out-slug Murton. It's safe to say he won't be getting many XBH's otherwise.

#254- Mark stay off the board, and avoid all typing. Wouldn't want to hurt the shoulder.

What Manny said was: If you don't compare him to other qualifying left fielders, then to whom do you compare him? AA Left fielders? And it's a legit question. Of course, let me add the caveat that I love Murton. The Cubs sorely need someone with his approach, what with all the free-swingers in the offense now. And besides, I am a believer in aggregate production. If we get improvements in power from RF, CF, 1B, and 2B this year, we can afford to have Murton's average power in LF in exchange for his above average OBP. I've always felt that OBP was more important to an offense than was power anyway.

Az Phil: Does the shoulder get progressively “looser�? with use where it might fall off like a tire where the lug nuts are loose? ------ If that happens, I suspect the correct course of action is to send him to Lansing to rehab the shoulder. The Bluejays would have to claim him off waivers first though. http://www.lansinglugnuts.com/ thanks Phil for the laugh though...

"jacos — December 21, 2006 @ 6:39 pm #254- Mark stay off the board, and avoid all typing. Wouldn’t want to hurt the shoulder." Dude, he's not Carlos Zambrano.

"And besides, I am a believer in aggregate production. If we get improvements in power from RF, CF, 1B, and 2B this year, we can afford to have Murton’s average power in LF in exchange for his above average OBP" Could not agree more.

Marshall, Thanks man, but Bleeding Blue ain't gonna hear it. He will just take his shots and keep going. To compare Murton vs LF's to players who have 25 AB's is stupid, if he wants to do that, let him. But what do I and my "public university education" know.

Whatever Manny, keep playing the victim. I suppose you would also argue that Zambrano is a below average pitcher if he finished 7th out of the top 9 Cy Young candidates. (and that is a hypothetical, I don't remember where he finished in the balloting) To compare Murton vs LF’s to players who have 25 AB’s is stupid, if he wants to do that, let him. Of course its stupid to compare him to LFers who have 25 ABs, but its just as stupid to say that he can ONLY be compared to the top 9 players in terms of Plate appearance because they got 3.1 ABs per game (or whatever the formula is) when nearly 1/2 the teams in the NL didn't have a player who met that criteria. That's not even touching your assine statement that comparing him to more than 8 other left fielders is just as relevant as comparing him to AA players, players on a softball team, or any human walking the face of the earth.

If you don’t compare him to other qualifying left fielders, then to whom do you compare him? AA Left fielders? And it’s a legit question. Sorry Marshall, but its no more a legit question than asking if he should be compared to a player on a softball team. Clearly any reasonable person can figure out that he needs to be compared to other MLB players. You obviously figured that out when you posted that it would be better to "more fair to compare him to every other major league left fielder." I don't think it took an advanced education for you to figure out that's exactly what my point was, yet Manny for some reason couldn't quite grasp that very very simple concept, needing instead to complain that comparing Murton to anything more than half of the starters in the NL is equal to comparing him to "any human on earth".

Okay, so since I'm a math geek and enjoy doing this sort of thing, I went on Yahoo's sortable stats by position and ranked all Left Fielders by OPS. Of the 24 major league outfielders with enough at-bats to qualify, Murton's OPS of .810 is solidly in the lower half. And, if you run the numbers and calculate an average for the position (.830, about) he'd be below average. While I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that .810 is not the best he could do and expect significant improvement next season, last season's stats had him as below average (for a starting major league left fielder). What I think the real argument here is: what do you think we can project for next year based on last year's performance? Personally, I think Manny's .850 is a very realistic, conservative estimate of Murt's performance next year--which would make him an officially "above average starting major league left fielder".

#258 Mark Prior-- Porn, weed and fantasy league? I want to party with you, big guy! You bring the broads, you being the multimillionaire and all.

matt murton's ops doesnt mean anything cuz the matt murton who broke with the club this spring isnt the matt murton who was around in june/july and isnt the one that finished with the club. his projection is why he's even being considered rather than his track record...same thing that got him a callup bypassing AAA. when he broke in last season he got fed a steady diet of outside pitching he made contact on, but usually weak and on the ground....singles/walks/singles...he struggled to adapt midseason and finally broke through in august when he started choking up a bit more on his bat and stopped swinging at every pitch he can hit, instead using his good eye to swing at stuff he can hit well. i seriously believe the guy could be a .280/.360+ option with 20-30hr power. wont get him voted onto an allstar team, but i'd consider it good production.

I'd like to know where some of you see all this power potential out of Matt Murton. Or this "above average" foot speed. Good grief. I've been following Cub baseball for 30 plus years and would like to think I know a reasonable amount about the game otherwise. The Murton I have seen up front and personal is doubtful to top the 20 home run mark on a consistent basis. Not that home run power is the end all and be all, but for crying out loud folks lets get realistic. Murton punches the ball to left center, center and right center. That's his game. He has a short, compact swing and doesn't get great arm extension. Nor does he have latent power ala the power hitters of the league. And he is never going to be the type of guy who jerks the ball down the power alleys. In terms of speed, well I must be watching a different ballplayer then some of you. Murton doesn't run well, period. He's Mark Grace with red hair on the basepads. And in the outfield he doesn't get great reads and doesn't have the foot speed to make up for errors in judgment or track the ball down. The presence of Juan Pierre in center did wonders to mask Murton's range deficiencies in left. And before some of you jump down my throat all over again, let me say that I like Murton. But folks, he is just an OK ballplayer.

I understand that the comment about homeruns in batting practice were an allusion to Murton's power. In high school I hit a few balls in BP that would have been homers at Wrigley Field but no one ever confused me with a power hitter. In the early 80s I once sat with a handful of others in the leftfield bleachers and caught two straight BP homers by Doug Bird. As I said earlier, Murton may be the second coming of Rocky Colavito but what he does in batting practice doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Home run hitters hit homers in BP and marginal pitchers like Doug Bird hit homers in BP. Sooner or later, everyone homers in BP. Homers in games are what count. Hitting a 70 MPH fastball into the seats doesn't.

alright fine, Murton consistently hits homers in BP, at least so I've heard from numerous people on this board. but I don't think anyone is expecting him to be a 30 hr guy on any sort of consistent basis, 20-25 is pretty reasonable though if he played a full seson, coupled with an excellent ability to get on-base. As for speed silent towel, we'll have to agree to disagree. Professional scouting reports and what I've seen say he's a bit above average, you seem to think differently. Time will tell. And for what it's worth, I thought Grace had average speed, Murton just a step above.

Marshall, yes, you just ran the exact same numbers that Manny did. I restricted my lens to the NL, but the results are similar. I will tell you the same thing I told Manny, when you only limit your investigation to those who qualify, you are only looking at a fraction of the starters in baseball - and that doesn't even include backups. For whatever reason, be it platoons, injuries, or what have you, essentially 1/2 of all teams in the NL and about 1/3 of teams in MLB overall did not have a player who qualified at the LF position. Therefore, you are missing a huge portion of the overall picture when coming up with an average when you only look at that fraction of teams, which is also why you would reach conclusions like Adam Dunn is a below average NL LF slugger by using this method. I think that expecting Murton to put up an OPS of between 850-900 is a very reasonable expectation for 2007, and I never argued with Manny prediction there of. I simply stated that Matt Murton is above average in Slugging, especially when you consider his age, experience, and salary, a statement that is as much true right now as it was when I posted it 12 hours ago.

The Murton I have seen up front and personal is doubtful to top the 20 home run mark on a consistent basis. Not that home run power is the end all and be all, but for crying out loud folks lets get realistic. I still love the expectation that Murton is somehow going to have a significant regression for a still unexplained reason. Power is often the last thing to develop at the major league level, especially for a patient hitter like Murton. Murton has 20 HRs right now after just 1 seasons worth of ABs. But we are being unrealistic to think that the 25 year old might actually be able to duplicate what he's already done - much less actually improve on his rookie campaign. Afterall, he's just an ok ballplayer, and ok ballplayers don't improve with experience.

I have been to 40 or so games in the last 2 years, and I have NEVER seen Cubs BP. I have many time gone in the second they open the gates, and no BP. So #235 CWtP "For someone who went to 12 Cubs home games Towel, it’s a shame you never got a chance to see Matt Murton in batting practice. If you had, you probably wouldn’t be wondering where his power potential is." Did YOU see any BP? I think they take all of their pre-game BP in the cages. Why would they want to practice, dude?

I think its clear that Murton will put up Sandberg numbers. That's Hall of Fame for a second baseman but ho hum for a left fielder. But was we stated before, if we get added pop from areas where we don't usually get offense, he'll be a welcome addition. Let's remember that we have a very good hitting catcher. IF we have Soriano or Jones in center, we are fine.

Although it pains me to say it, Bleeding Blue is right. Either you run the numbers using the player who has the most PA's in left for each team, or you shut the hell up. There are 30 teams in MLB, not 24. The better players get more PA's (unless you play for Dusty Baker), by using an arbitrary PA number to determine who qualifies for your pool, you're already intentionally choosing the top players. Who knows, maybe platoon starters will drop Murton's standing, if you just measure on OPS.

i dunno how anyone who saw murton can deny he was hitting the ball with more power, not swinging at so many outside pitches, and generally just elevating the ball better. i dunno if its a timing thing or a change in his approach, but he also started choking up on the bat more late in the season and it really helped him handle the inside pitch a lot better. this is a guy with power to both sides of the plate. he was getting killed on the outside cuz while he's got power there, he's also got the ability to put the ball in play there. that was leading to a lotta weak ass singles and erasing his power. in 05 a lotta his problem was he sucked inside...when he got the inside part of the plate under his control and he showcased it in 06 early, he started to get almost nothing but outside nibbling crap for him to single off of or walk. when he managed to get a better selection of pitches coming at him when he quit dribbling every little outside pitch 90-150ft. on the ground he got some stuff he can smack around again. the main problem with murton if youre a pitcher is where to pitch him when he's not falling for your trap...and when he's got his pull hitting working and not reaching for everything a pitcher is not gonna have an easy time. that's what ive seen of murton, anyway.

"when he managed to get a better selection of pitches coming at him when he quit dribbling every little outside pitch 90-150ft. on the ground he got some stuff he can smack around again." he managed to get a better selection of pitches coming at him when he quit dribbling every little outside pitch 90-150ft. on the ground. he got some stuff he can smack around again. ...oops =p

Yeah, I don't think anybody is worried about the offense. Right now the debate is whether Murton is going to be the 4th most potent offensive force in the line up, or the sixth, which, no matter how you look at him, is a pretty damn solid place to be in. We are also debating whether a guy with 5 triples and seven stolen bases in the equivalent of one season of at bats has above average speed. Also whether a 25 year old can improve. And how much merit there is to batting practice power. And some thing with comparing left fielders that I'm still not sure what exactly is at issue.

"in 05 a lotta his problem was he sucked inside" and yeah, that's strong...he was just weak there, not "suck"...

hell...i wouldnt mind floyd and murton...i just hope the CF situation works out. if floyd would actually come here knowing he may only get 300-350abs...cant argue too much with that.

Newport Racine, YES, I've seen Murton in batting practice (hitting one monstrous blast after another) but not at Wrigley. I live on the west coast. And I'm NOT ALONE in witnessing these shows. Jim Callis of Baseball America wrote last August, "In our Best Tools list for the Cubs during the offseason, we rated Murton as being the system's best hitter for average and having its best strike-zone discipline. He hits more for average than power, though he has size (6-foot-1, 215 pounds) and strength and can put on a show in batting practice. He won home run derbies at the Connie Mack World Series (1998), the Cape Cod League all-star game (2002) and the Florida State League all-star game (2004). Like (Paul)O'Neill, Murton should settle in as a .290-.310 hitter with at least 20 homers a year."

Bleeding Blue: "when you only limit your investigation to those who qualify, you are only looking at a fraction of the starters in baseball - and that doesn’t even include backups. For whatever reason, be it platoons, injuries, or what have you, essentially 1/2 of all teams in the NL and about 1/3 of teams in MLB overall did not have a player who qualified at the LF position. Therefore, you are missing a huge portion of the overall picture when coming up with an average when you only look at that fraction of teams" So what would be a fair amount of AB's to look at, since qualifing players doesn't fit your inaccurate argument? How low should we go in AB's? Just keep going till your argument is justified by the stats? Let's see... NL LF's SLG% with minimum of: 200 PA's - Murton ranks 14 out of 22 (bottom half) 150 PA's - Murton ranks 15 out of 24 (bottom half) 125 PA's - Murton ranks 16 out of 29 (bottom half) 100 PA's - Murton ranks 16 out of 30 (bottom half) So, of all NL LF's with 100 PA's or more, Matt Murton ranks in the lower half in SLG. So, then how is he above average in SLG?

So what would be a fair amount of AB’s to look at, since qualifing players doesn’t fit your inaccurate argument? How low should we go in AB’s? Just keep going till your argument is justified by the stats? How about this, take all the raw numbers from everyone who played LF in the NL and come up with what the actual average for the position was. That will tell you exactly what the average output is for the position, giving more weight to players who played everyday and giving very little weight to those who played their very rarely. That's how you determine what is average for a position, simple math. Now, I did not run the math, nor do I care, because once again, you've IGNORED half of my statement. You conviently like to forget that my statement wasn't just that Murton is above average in slugging, it was that Murton is above average in slugging espeically WHEN YOU CONSIDER HIS AGE, EXPERIENCE, AND CONTRACT. For someone who bitches and moans about being misquoted anytime someone fails to use the exact same words you use, its pretty pathetic that you ignore half of my original statement, and then say its innaccurate because half of my statement doesn't meet your very very narrow, and innaccurate definition of what it means to be average.

Bleeding Blue: "You conviently like to forget that my statement wasn’t just that Murton is above average in slugging, it was that Murton is above average in slugging espeically WHEN YOU CONSIDER HIS AGE, EXPERIENCE, AND CONTRACT." So what other NL LF's would you consider him competing with with those stipulations? He might be the only one, so in actuality Murton might be #1. And didn't you say this quote too? "You give me a guy who is above average in both OBP and SLG, you’ve got yourself a solid hitter." No exceptions there... But hey, you keep thinking that Murton was above average last year in SLG last year, that is fine, you are just wrong like normal.

And didn’t you say this quote too? “You give me a guy who is above average in both OBP and SLG, you’ve got yourself a solid hitter.�? No exceptions there… No execptions there, but since you want to split hairs, where in that quote do I say the words "Matt Murton?" Clearly you were able to imply that I was talking about Murton even though I did not explictly type the words. Yet for some reason your brain can not make the same connection that about the words "especially when you consider his Age, Experience, and Contract." I'm sure the fact that those words just conviently don't fit into your argument had nothing to do with the fact that you continue to ignore them. But hey, you keep thinking that Murton was above average last year in SLG last year, that is fine, you are just wrong like normal. If you want to keep harping on this silly point, then please, tell me what is an Average Slugging Percentage. Give me what the real average is, not just the midpoint of a group chosen by an arbitrary number of ABs. Your theory of "average" makes no more sense than taking 2 players, one with 1 hit in 10 ABs and other with 1 hit in 2 ABs and saying their combined batting average is 300, because 1 hit .500 and the other hit .100. I'm sorry they apparently didn't teach you this very basic math at PSU, but if you are going to use statistics to bitch about an argument, you should at least have a basic understanding on how to use them. Until you actually can do that, you are just vomitting your same rediculous and innacurate drivel.

So what other NL LF’s would you consider him competing with with those stipulations? He might be the only one, so in actuality Murton might be #1. Sorry, somehow I think Murton is not the only Left Fielder to ever be 25 years old, I doubt he's the only Left Fielder to ever have 600 ABs worth of experience, and I really don't think he's the only Left Fielder to ever make the major league minnimum. I'm sure if your vendetta against me for proving your wrong and demonstrating your hypocricy on so many other occations is clouding your judgement here, but its you and you alone who are trying to find some rediclously narrow set of circumstances where you might find a loophole. Its sad and commical all at the same time.

Have a happy holidays, Bleeding Blue… You too Manny. But please, get back to me when you can actually back up your argument with some shred of facts.

Bleeding Blue: "I’m sure if your vendetta against me for proving your wrong and demonstrating your hypocricy on so many other occations is clouding your judgement here, but its you and you alone who are trying to find some rediclously narrow set of circumstances where you might find a loophole. Its sad and commical all at the same time." Funny I think the same thing of you... Have a happy holidays!!

Bleeding Blue: "But please, get back to me when you can actually back up your argument with some shred of facts." My argument is/was that Murton is a below average SLG LF in the NL/MLB and the stats I showed backed that up. If you don't like those facts, so be it. If they don't fit into your "rediclously narrow set of circumstances", so be it. Again, have a safe and happy holidays!!

Like I said Manny, please get back to me when you have some shred of facts to back up your argument. I know its your standard practice to make a rediculous argument and then when questioned on it, you make a backhanded compliment to end the conversation instead of providing any facts to back that argument up. But since you've gone through all this trouble to accuse me of being wrong, it would be nice for you to follow through with real evidence for a change.

My argument is/was that Murton is a below average SLG LF in the NL/MLB and the stats I showed backed that up. The stats you've shown still do not show what the average Slugging percentage for NL LFers is. All you've done is use a random set of stats using criteria that doesn't begin to prove anything. Until you can establish what the average is, by actually using facts and definision of an average and not some random critieria that tells you absolutely nothing of value, you haven't done jack to say where Murton falls in that range. Like I said, find out what the actual average Slugging Percentage for NL LFers is, and then report back. Until then you are just vomitting the same innaccurate drivel over and over again.

Bleeding Blue- lf Murton is in the bottom half of all NL LF'ers with 100 ABs or more, then the odds are good that he'll still be below average when you consider every LF'er's ABs. The fact is, those who got 100 ABs or more probably account for 90% of the ABs at that position in the NL--meaning that the other 10% may not skew the average terribly much. While we haven't really found the statistical mean SLG for all NL LF'ers, I'd be willing to bet that it's about 10 points above where Murton's mark was last year, and probably pretty close to what we can expect from him next year. Now, if you want to have a fight about whether or not he's a good player, you should fight with that towel guy--he's the one who was actually saying that Murton wasn't that good. Manny is just pointing out that he wasn't above average last year--and that while he's certainly worth keeping, he might not be the offensive powerhouse his .910 OPS in the last month of the season would suggest. Does that make sense? Your posts are irking me with their tone. You're getting way too vitriolic about baseball--on an internet message board. Can we just keep it cool?

Marshall, if you've read TCR for any amount of time you'll soon see this is exactly what Manny does on a regular basis. He tries to prove people wrong by taking a narrow facet of an argument, typically using faulty logic, and then attempts to conclude that the entire statement is wrong. This is exactly what he has done here, and I'm sorry that it offends you that I take offense to this ignorant behavior. I have a problem when someone says they have proven that Murton is below average, without ever once defining what average is. I especially have a problem with it when they start the whole converstation by misrepresenting my position and ignoring half of my statement. Despite what Manny is arguing, I never once said that Murton was above average in Slugging when compared to the performance of only to a certain portion of NL LFers exclusive to the year 2006. I still don't know what was average, because Manny refuses to say, but if its as you say, 10 points above what Murton's SLG percentage in 2006, then his career SLG percentage would be above that average mark. But again, that was never my point in the first place, Manny has just taken us down a tangent, by ingoring half of my original statment and then "proving" his statement about Murton being below average without ever once defining what average is. You'll notice that Manny still refuses to answer that question, despite being asked more than once. This is just what Manny does, Marshall, keep reading TCR, and you'll see he does it with plenty of other posters.

Umm, I haven't read this whole thread carefully enough to know if anyone's done this yet, but I just settled this stupid argument. I took all MLB LFers from 2006, added up all their ABs, hits, BBs, 2Bs, etc etc and then calculated the averages. No need to use qualified ABs or any of that nonsense when you're taking into account all total LF at-bats. Anyway, here are the MLB averages for ALL leftfielders last year (81 in total): BA: .273 OBP: .344 SLG: .460 OPS: .804 Murton is above average in every category except SLG, but his OBP makes up for it in the OPS calculation. Does that settle it, or do we need to argue about what the definition of is, is?

Just for shits and giggles, here are the averages for all MLB LFers with >100 ABs: BA: .275 OBP: .347 SLG: .466 OPS: .812 So Murton is above average in BA and OBP, and slightly below average in SLG and OPS (below average by 3 1000ths in OPS, so I'd consider that average).

Oh, and the Median OPS for LFers with over 100 ABs is .789, which Murton is well above. Median is a much better statistical measurement than average because it returns the true middle, which is not obscured by outliers.

Doug, Thanks for that. I didn't want to do all those calculations on my own. Do you have a special spreadsheet you put this stuff in? What's the mean and median OPS for all major leaguers?

Bravo Doug. Very nice work, and its appreciated. I'm glad to see there is someone here who can understand how to work with statistics. In his first 600 ABs, Murton's Slugging is within 0.004 of the statistical average for all MLB LFers with noteworthy playing time. When you consider that along with his Age, Experience, and Salary - as I did in my original statement, Murton is clearly an above average Slugger.

BTW, Doug, if you've got the data and its easy to pull up. What is the median SLG for MLB LFers?

Re: 203 "...give back the checks.... Mike Brown on the Bears, too!" Um, Mike Brown IS giving back his checks. NFL players do NOT get guaranteed contracts. They get handed 16 checks during the season, one per week, that's it. If they can't play due to injury, no check. Pretty insecure vocation, given the short average NFL career plus the likelihood of injury.

Hey Manny-- Good luck with the Defenders job. (I've always thought Connecticut could use a little defending -- and a good spell check program! ) You seem to have taken an interesting career path to get to where you are now -- the Broadcast Journalism major, MERC trader, now BO Mgr. I imagine the industry was the bigger part of your interest than just the position, per se (i.e., I'm guessing your job search didn't include theatre box office openings). I hope this proves to be a productive move for you!

Joe- Thanks for the well wishes... Yeah, I had always wanted to get into the front office of a sports team, but since I worked with Pepsi/MLB, I just couldn't get an good opportunity. The position is a good first step into where I want to go. I do wish I would of gotten a similar opportunity a few years ago, but oh well... The position doesn't pay as well as what i was doing in Chicago, but this is a better career path for myself. Thanks again, and happy holidays to you and your family!!

Doug, Thanks for doing the leg work on the LF's. The stats show exactly what I thought, that Matt Murton was NOT above average in SLG among LF's in NL. Thanks!!

NFL Players get paid when they're hurt. The contracts are not gauranteed year to year, they are guaranteed over the course of the season.

Lavoro eccellente! ..ringraziamenti per le informazioni..realmente lo apprezzo: D

Recent comments

  • Arizona Phil (view)

    There are two clear "logjams" in the Cubs minor league pipeline at the present time, namely AA outfielders (K. Alcantara, C. Franklin, Roederer, Pagan, Pinango, Beesley, and Nwogu) and Hi-A infielders (J. Rojas, P. Ramirez, Howard, R. Morel, Pertuz, R. Garcia, and Spence, although Morel has been getting a lot of reps in the outfield in addition to infield). So it is possible that you might see a trade involving one of the extra outfielders at AA and/or one of the extra infielders at Hi-A in the next few days. 

  • Arizona Phil (view)

    18-year old SS Jefferson Rojas almost made the AA Tennessee Opening Day roster, and he is a legit shortstop, so I would expect him to be an MLB Top 100 prospect by mid-season. 

  • Arizona Phil (view)

    Among the relievers in the system, I expect RHRP Hunter Bigge at AAA Iowa and RHRP Ty Johnson at South Bend to have breakout seasons on 2024, and among the starters I see LHP Drew Gray and RHP Will Sanders at South Bend and RHP Naz Mule at ACL Cubs as the guys who will make the biggest splash. Also, Jaxon Wiggins is throwing bullpen sides, so once he is ready for game action he could be making an impact at Myrtle Beach by June.

  • Arizona Phil (view)

    I expect OF Christian Franklin to have a breakout season at AA Tennessee in 2024. In another organization that doesn't have PCA, Caissie, K. Alcantara, and Canario in their system, C. Franklin would be a Top 10 prospect. 

  • Arizona Phil (view)

    The Reds trading Joe Boyle for Sam Moll at last year's MLB Trade Deadline was like the Phillies trading Ben Brown to the Cubs for David Robertson at the MLB TD in 2022. 

  • Arizona Phil (view)

    Javier Assad started the Lo-A game (Myrtle Beach versus Stockton) on the Cubs backfields on Wednesday as his final Spring Training tune-up. He was supposed to throw five innings / 75 pitches. However, I was at the minor league road games at Fitch so I didn't see Assad pitch. 

  • crunch (view)

    cards put j.young on waivers.

    they really tried to make it happen this spring, but he put up a crazy bad slash of .081/.244/.108 in 45PA.

  • Childersb3 (view)

    Seconded!!!

  • crunch (view)

    another awesome spring of pitching reports.  thanks a lot, appreciated.

  • Arizona Phil (view)

    Here are the Cubs pitchers reports from Tuesday afternoon's Cardinals - Cubs game art Sloan Park in Mesa:

    SHOTA IMANAGA
    FB: 90-92 
    CUT: 87-89 
    SL: 82-83 
    SPLIT: 81-84
    CV: 73-74 
    COMMENT: Worked three innings plus two batters in the fourth... allowed four runs (three earned) on eight hits (six singles and two doubles) walked one, and struck out six (four swinging), with a 1/2 GO/AO... he threw 73 pitches (52 strikes - 10 swing & miss - 19 foul balls)... surrendered one run in the top of the 1st on a one-out double off Cody Bellinger's glove in deep straight-away CF followed one out later by two consecutive two-out bloop singles, allowed two runs (one earned) in the 2nd after retiring the first two hitters (first batter had a nine-pitch AB with four consecutive two-strike foul balls before being retired 3 -U) on a two-out infield single (weak throw on the run by Nico Hoerner), a hard-contact line drive RBI double down the RF line, and an E-1 (missed catch) by Imanaga on what should been an inning-ending 3-1 GO, gave up another run in the 3rd on a two-out walk on a 3-2 pitch and an RBI double to LF, and two consecutive singles leading off the top of the 4th before being relieved (runners were ultimately left stranded)... threw 18 pitches in the 1st inning (14 strikes - two swing & miss, one on FB and the other on a SL - four foul balls), 24 pitches in the 2nd inning (17 strikes - three swing & miss, one on FB, two SPLIT - six foul balls), 19 pitches in the 3rd inning (13 strikes - seven swing & miss, three on SL, two on SPLIT, one on FB - three foul balls), and 12 pitches without retiring a batter in the top of the 4th (8 strikes - no swing & miss - four foul balls)... Imanaga throws a lot of pitches per inning, but it's not because he doesn't throw strikes...  if anything, he throws too many strikes (he threw 70% strikes on Tuesday)... while he gets a ton of swing & miss (and strikeouts), he also induces a lot of foul balls because he doesn't try to make hitters chase his pitches by throwing them out of the strike zone... rather, he uses his very diverse pitch mix to get swing & miss (and lots of foul balls as well)... he also is a fly ball pitcher who will give up more than his share of HR during the course of the season...   
     
    JOE NAHAS
    FB: 90-92 
    SL: 83-85 
    CV: 80-81 
    COMMENT: Was called up from the Hi-A South Bend group at Minor League Camp for the day... relieved Imanaga with runners at first and second and no outs in the top of the 4th, and after an E-2 catcher's interference committed by Miguel Amaya loaded he bases, Nahas struck out the side (one swinging & two looking)... threw 16 pitches (11 strikes - two swinging)...   

    YENCY ALMONTE
    FB: 89-92 
    CH: 86 
    SL: 79 
    COMMENT: Threw an eight-pitch 5th (five strikes - no swing & miss), with a 5-3 GO for the first out and an inning-ending 4-6-3 DP after a one-out single... command was a bit off but he worked through it...   

    FRANKIE SCALZO JR
    FB: 94-95
    CH: 88 
    SL: 83
    COMMENT: Was called up from the AA Tennessee group at Minor League Camp for the day and worked the 6th inning... got the first outs easily (a P-5 and a 4-3 GO) on just three pitches, before allowing three consecutive two-out hard-contact hits (a double and two singles), with the third hit on pitch # 9 resulting in a runner being thrown out at the plate by RF Christian Franklin for the third out of the inning... 

    MICHAEL ARIAS
    FB: 94-96
    CH: 87-89
    SL: 82-83
    COMMENT: Was called up from the AA Tennessee group at Minor League Camp for the day and allowed a hard-contact double on the third pitch of the 7th inning (a 96 MPH FB), and the runner came around to score on a 4-3 GO and a WP... gave up two other loud contact outs (an L-7 and an F-9)... threw 18 pitches (only 10 strikes - only one swing & miss)... stuff is electric but still very raw and he continues to have difficulty commanding it, and while he has the repertoire of a SP, he throws too many pitches-per-inning to be a SP and not enough strikes to be a closer... he is most definitely still a work-in-progress...   

    ZAC LEIGH: 
    FB: 93-94 
    CH: 89 
    SL: 81-83 
    CV: 78
    COMMENT: Was called up from the AA Tennessee group at Minor League Camp for the day and tossed a 1-2-3 8th (4-3 GO, K-swinging on a sweeper, K-looking on another sweeper)... threw 14 pitches (11 strikes - one swing & miss - eight foul balls)... kept pumping pitches into the strike zone but had difficulty putting hitters away (ergo a ton of foul balls)... FB velo is nowhere near the 96-98 MPH it was a couple of years ago when he was a Top 30 prospect, but his secondaries are better...   

    JOSE ROMERO:  
    FB: 93-95
    SL: 82-84
    COMMENT: Was called up from the Hi-A South Bend group at Minor League Camp for the day and worked the 9th (14 pitches - only six strikes- no swing & miss) and allowed a solo HR after two near-HR fly outs to the warning track, before getting a 3-1 GO to end the inning... it was like batting practice when he wasn't throwing pitches out of the strike zone...