The Over/Under

No, this isn't a betting column although I've never been able to figure out what the gambling lines on a baseball game mean. I had this wonderful post all ready to go running down the various prospect lists that have been circulated over the last few months. We're talking pictures, animated charts, flash demos, in-depth interviews, a whole streaming webcast with Tim Wilkens and Oneri Fleita set-up so they could answer your questions live and then Baseball America moved back the release date of their top 10 Cubs prospects for a week. (And much like a Cubs injury report, about half of that last sentence is true). So instead, I'm wondering if you guys could help me out with a problem that's got me baffled? A certain website asked me to do a write-up on our beloved Chicago Cubs (hint: I recently reviewed one of their books). So I'm supposed to provide a name for the most overrated Cub and the most underrated Cub and I just can't pin it down. The most underrated Cub seems easy enough, find a guy that flies under the media radar or is overshadowed by a bigger name, but quietly gets the job done. But do I go with an unproven no-name like Ryan Theriot with less than 150 major league at-bats or someone with a little more seasoning whom the spotlight passes over such as Bob Howry who quietly got it done quite consistently last year with little fanfare. The overrated player really has me racking me brain. First, how can anyone on a 66 win team be overrated? Second, it seems like such a slap in the face to the unfortunate player tagged with the label. For example, that certain team that's going to be playing in the Super Bowl this upcoming week has a middle linebacker who seems to find his way on the most overrated list every once in awhile. And everytime he's on one of those lists, I immediately think to myself, "What the hell? Urlacher doesn't suck, you people are morons." Of course, that's the problem I'm having, you see someone on an overrated list and you start equating that with a "These players suck" list, rather than it's intended meaning which is that they're just not as good as the hype machine has made them. (But just to be clear, those people are morons, Urlacher is worth the hype.) So there you go, who are the most underrated and overrated Cubs players? Now hopefully they're different players, although I bet you I could make a pretty convincing case for Carlos Zambrano on both accounts. And give me some reasoning behind the choices because I'm going to have to justify them somehow.
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Comments

#1 Under-rated: Bob Howry
Runner-up: Jacque Jones
2nd runner-up: Henry Blanco
#1 Over-rated: Carlos Zambrano
Runner-up: Carlos Zambrano
2nd runner-up: Jody Davis

I think Cesar Izturis is probably the most overrated player on the team because he can't really hit but will somehow end up hitting second on this team.

How about Matt Murton for most underrated? Key player who gets on base, hits for a little power and plays hard but somehow the Cubs think we need Cliff Floyd to platoon with him this year. Go figure.

BTW, by far the most overrated former Cub is Andre Dawson. The most underrated former Cub is clearly Ron Santo.

Not that this has any bearing on what you're discussing here Rob but just thought I'd throw that in .....

Underrated: I'd have to say Michael Wuertz. The guy has been very good, even close to dominant at times, yet he spent half of last year in Iowa, and there's a good shot they won't have room for him on the roster for at least part of the year this year.

Murton would probably be my runner up. They guy crushes the ball in the 2nd half, yet he's barely in the Cubs long term plans and appears destined for platooning this year. Meanwhile, the Cubs are holding a place for Pie? Why not hold a place for the guy who has already shown an ability to hit MLB pitching?

Overrated: Jacque Jones. Oddly, he would have been on my underrated list at this time last year, but it seems like people are expecting him to repeat his 06 numbers, even though they were almost career highs across the board. I also don't think there are any better options, but I think people are expecting too much in 07.

Runner Up: Hendry Blanco. He's a good backup catcher, but he's still just a backup catcher.

I'd have to agree with Izturis for overrated. If he hits .258, we're going to be looking at his 2nd highest average since joining the NL. Plus, 45 extra base hits in 670 ABs is his best in a season? That's about 1 every 3 games!

Underrated, it may not be original, but Matt Murton is too good an option to pass up. The most similar player (according to www.baseball-reference.com) at this point in his career is Kirk Gibson. If Murton turns out to be Gibson, I'd be just fine with that.

Underrated: Bob Howry
Overrated: Aramis Ramirez

How could you miss Ramirez? We just paid a boatload of money to someone who couldn't pick up where Derrick Lee left off. He can't "carry" the team when times get tough. They question his hustle.

Yes, he is talented and probably the best third baseman we've had since Madlock, but is he worth the money and hero-worship? Not really.

Overweighted: Jim Hendry. Big fella's working on it, though.

Underrated: Murton. He might not be a perennial all-star, but he's the type of solidly above-average -- and cheap -- player that you can build a team around. There shouldn't have been any question this offseason as to whether he'd be the starter in LF for 2007.

Runner-up: Wuertz. Might have the best arm in a very good bullpen. He's had his struggles, but he certainly doesn't deserve the "who?" status he seems to have.

Overrated: Lou Piniella. No manager is a savior -- Dusty wasn't and Lou won't be. He may be an improvement over Dusty but a manager alone can't carry a team to the World Series.

Runner-up: Zambrano. He's hugely talented and I do hope he's signed long term, but there are enough question marks and warning signs to make me nauseous about the contract he's likely to get.

Come on -- Your other readers are right --
Murton is underrated. Ramirez is overrated.

Overrated - Mark Prior. Hyped bigtime coming out of college. Perfect mechanics, etc. Still looked at by many to just have had some bad luck and still will be great pitcher. But he has missed the last 3 Opening Days and was horrible when pitching last year.

Underrated - Michael Barrett. While his defense isn't top tier at his position, it has improved in his time here in Chicago. But his bat has quietly become one of the best, if not the best at his position. Having a very good offensive player at a position like Catcher is a huge plus and he just doesn't get enough credit, in my opinion.

I think you could make a case for Barrett on both lists too.

Nobody talks about him, it seems to me, and he's been close to the best hitting catcher in the league the last couple years. People should at least talk about his stick.

Then again, he's guided a horribly underachieving staff and hasn't been a model of leadership or dependability back behind the plate.

djchi:
"Then again, he’s guided a horribly underachieving staff and hasn’t been a model of leadership or dependability back behind the plate."

While somewhat true, Barrett's CERA was actually better than the much praised defensively Blanco last year.

CERA must be flawed if barrett is better than blanco with a glove and/or arm.

even barrett, himself, is on another self-imposed defensive learning offseason. cant say he's lazy at least.

i'd take barrett 10 times outta 10 for his price the past many years vs. what he brings elsewhere on the club, but he's not blanco behind the plate.

wonder if the cubs will reup him...he's gonna move into that 10m-ish multi-year pretty soon if he keeps hitting like he does.

Barrett's also a good choice on the underrated side. Great value, great bat, and more than anything else, great attitude. He seems to work harder and care more about improving his game than anyone else on the club.

Overrated -- Carlos Zambrano.
Underrated -- Ryan Dempster, Michael Wuertz, Jacque Jones.

Overrated - Aramis - simply because of the way he couldn't put the team on his back last Spring after Lee went down. Still one hell of a third baseman though.

Underrated - Barrett, for many of the reasons Manny stated in post #10.

Underrated: Murton, clearly. Not even his own GM thinks he should start more than 50 games.

Overrated: DLee. I hate typing that, but the hype on him has gotten out of control. After Sosa left and Prior and Wood disappointed, there was a giant Cubs stardom vacuum that had to be filled. After DLee's superb 2005, the media and fans decided DLee would be the new Cubs savior.

This isn't to say DLee's not extremely valuable -- he is; in fact I'd say he's still the most valuable Cub. But the hype machine has gotten a little ahead of itself on him. He has had one fantastic year and a handful of very good seasons. This makes him really good and valuable but not in the class of Pujols and the others that people are trying their best to put him in.

i'd pick barrett and under and over...but that's kinda a cop-out.

he's both been ignored by the national media and overvalued (or not) depending on who you ask.

for his price, i'd say he's far from overvalued, but as far as his entire game vs. his future price tag...well, the whole thing hinges on money for me, personally.

as of now i'd have to say howry is underrated and blanco is overrated...nothing wrong with blanco, just his pay vs. value and use to the club overall. its nice to have a defensive minded backup catcher, but paying him an extra 1-2m because he can hit the occasional homer/double is a bit steep when you consider his lack of consistant quality contact and his low AB role.

Underrated-
Michael Barrett- Had to catch how many different pitchers last year, and had to be the second best hitter on the team when DLee went down.

Overrated-
Wood or Prior
Flip a coin.

This would have been an easy question a year ago-- Dusty Baker was one of the most over-rated people in the game. Piniella is probably in the same category -- like many managers, he has won with good talent, but not without it.

I agree with Wuertz on under-rated, although not that many people know about him outside of Chicago. He was very good last year.

I also agree with Big Z on overrated -- love the guy, but he is not (yet) consistent enough to be in the Carpenter/Oswalt class, where you get a very good game nearly every time out. He can still run throw a stinker once in a while.

I don't understand the talk about Aramis not "carrying the team" last year when D-Lee got hurt. In other sports, a player can take more on himself to "carry" a team -- running back gets more carries, NBA player takes more shots, etc., but a baseball player canot impact the number of opportunities he gets in a game. Aramis played last year like he always does -- slow start, strong finish, good year-end numbers. What did people expect? Because Lee got hurt, A-Ram would start hitting better, even though he would probably get fewer decent pitches to hit? Bah. Doesn't work that way, as much as sportswriters want it to.

Yeah, Reggie Jackson was great inthe post-season. So were Bucky Dent and Brian Doyle.

Underrated -- Felix Pie

Overrated -- Felix Pie

over rated: Pie, and I hope that I am wrong. All we hear is that this guy is going to be the next super star. I hope that he lives up to his potential and then some, but I doubt that he will. He could have a very good career and still not live up to the hype being generated about him.

under rated: Erye / Howry - these two are the back bone of a bullpen that could be one of the best in baseball. If we have a closer who could be lights out (Wood?) Lou could turn every game into a six or seven inning game for the opposition. Remember the Nasty Boys with the Reds?

On another topic, and I know that it doesn't mean a lot, but according to the Cubs website depth chart, Murton is ahead of Floyd in left field. Maybe that is a good sign, but then again maybe not.

BillyBucks:
"Yeah, Reggie Jackson was great inthe post-season."

On a side note, actually Reggie was great (almost inhuman) in the World Series (1.212 OPS with 10 HR in 26 games), but pretty bad in the ALCS (.678 OPS with 6 HR in 45 games).

Maybe he should have only been called Mr. World Series.

"under rated: Erye"

You are very entitled to your opinion, and I do think that Eyre is a fantastic reliever, but he had a terrible second half to the tune of a 5.49 ERA in just 19.2 innings; he's nowhere near Howry's league, not yet. Lefthanders, also, torched him last season. .273/.353/.511 against them. I wonder if he was hiding an injury, or if he was just plain ineffective.

"On another topic, and I know that it doesn’t mean a lot, but according to the Cubs website depth chart, Murton is ahead of Floyd in left field. Maybe that is a good sign, but then again maybe not."

Carrie Muskat writes those sections. I wouldn't give them any importance.

The entire Cubs team has been overrated the last few years so it's difficult to pick a single player. But I think it's a bit unfair to say a player's ovverrated when he's injured and not meeting expectations. So, limiting it to healthy players my picks are:

overrated- RYAN DEMPSTER

C'mon, this guy's our closer? And paid like one with a multi-year contract? The fact is, his miserable 1-9 performance last year with an ERA of 4.80 shouldn't have surprised anyone. He was just returning to his career norm, a lifetime ERA of 4.83. Good Grief!

underrated- MICHAEL WUERTZ

Nobody else is even close. MW has been consistently good his entire career, appearing in 147 games with a career ERA of 3.59, striking out 10/9 innings pitched, more than doubling up strikeouts over walks, yet he can't seem to stick with the big club --- bouncing between AAA and Chicago. Good Grief!

Overrated -- Michael Barrett. The guy is a butcher behind the plate and simply doesn't work well with pitchers. Hopefully Sweet Lou sees the light and plays Henry Blanco more than once a week.

Underrated -- Jacque Jones. Does everything well except throw the baseball. Hits, drives in runs, covers ample territory in right, runs well.

Seamless Baseball's Derek Nelson pointed out this hilarious Conan O'Brien video about baseball history. Check it out.

This video. Sorry for the double post.

overrated does not = sucky. it simply means that that value given to a player is greater than what it normally is. like if zambrano is a good pitcher, he is rated as an excellent pitcher. etc.

I think you have to go with Soriano as the most overated, $136M/8yrs for a 31 year old?

There are a slew of players that could assume the underrated mantle but I would have to give the nod to The Riot.

Based on the 40-man roster...

Overrated: Pie
Underrated: Theriot

"overrated does not = sucky. it simply means that that value given to a player is greater than what it normally is."

Then I guess i'll have to go with Alphonso Soriano as overrated. He strikes out way too much and doesn't walk nearly enough to be a leadoff hitter. He doesn't even have a position.

underrated: Matt Murton/Jocko Jones. Both can hit, hustle, and and aren't locked into major dollars.

Silent Towel:

Jacque Jones... runs well.

I agree he is underrated, but to say he runs well, you'd have to ignore several (at least 4) baserunning gaffs in '06. Maybe he just had a bad year on the basepaths. We'll see.

Over rated: Definitely Barrett. How many World Champion teams can you name with a butcher behind the plate. Barrett could be a valuable contributor in the American League where he can DH, fill in for infielders and be the emergency catcher. But he is wated in the N.L.

Under rated. Bob Howry: Just a good solid performance every time out. The type player we have not seen much in the past ten years.

The Sarcastic Idiocy Forum challenges you to a winner-take-all game of lawn darts.

http://www.thesif.net/SIF/index.php?

underrated: bob howry
overrated: ted lilly and jason marquis

Underrated isn't Theriot.

Wade Miller is by FAR the most underrated Cub in the organization. Nobody seems to be talking about this guy. He will certainly win a spot in the rotation, and if he can post anything close to his pre-injury numbers, watch out. He could possibly be our 2nd best starting pitcher this upcoming year.

As for over-rated, I have to agree with some of the other posters. Jacque Jones gets my vote. He has one good year at the plate and it seems as if everyone points to him as a .285 30HR guy from here on out. While this MAY happen...odds are he won't be able to keep that up consistantly. Adding Cliff Floyd just gave the Cubs the flexability to possibly redress the right field situation if Jones relapses in his production. But here's my point. Jones is so overrated that fans and analysts keep talking about Floyd splitting time with Murton. They don't even consider that Floyd could take some time away from Jones. It's all about who's hitting well this year, not necessarily lefty/righty matchups.

Oh and for those who think Pie is the most overrated... How can someone not even predicted to make the team be overrated? Pie could be the most overrated MINOR LEAGUER, but certainly not the most overrated Cub.

So Sayeth the God of WAR!

Jones-"you’d have to ignore several (at least 4) baserunning gaffs in ‘06"

Doubled off second THREE times in a two week period.

That whole Aram carrying the team is BS. The writers of Chicago needed someone to peg all the problems on and it they chose Aram.

The don't mention Jones and Pierre as non-existent in April and May and Neifi playing about every day.

Speaking of underrated. I just read all the comments posted and not one person other than myself has mentioned Wade Miller.

That is about as underrated as you can get.

So Sayeth the God of WAR!

wade's counting on prior or r.hill not being ready or capable plus having a huge spring in order to be considered.

right now if everyone shows up healthy wade is the #6 starter and/or long-man...cotts is also in wade's class as far as current outlook. it would take injury and/or massive suck for either to get into the starting 5 as it stands with hill/prior being the best chance of a break for them as it stands. cant count out the other rookies showing something special this spring, such as angel guzman or s.marshall part 2.

and to throw an extra "*" on the whole thing...you can usually skip the #5 starter at least 2 times through the rotation the first couple weeks of april because of numerous days off depending on schedule.

Why didn't I just title this piece "The Over/Under"? That would have been far cooler. Oh well, late night writing will do that to you...

I'm going to stay out of the discussion as I appreciate all the comments and want to keep them coming....

"right now if everyone shows up healthy wade is the #6 starter and/or long-man"

I'm more confident that Miller will break camp as the fifth starter over Prior.

Prior will be lucky to pitch in a simulated game in April.

^^ Given how common that viewpoint is, I think you could make a pretty strong argument that Prior is the most underrated player on the team. Everyone seems to assume he'll either repeat '06 (few appearances, terrible) or won't pitch at all.

Still, he's only 26 years old, he's a few years removed from an 18-6 season, his health problem appears to have finally been diagnosed and addressed this offseason, and he's already throwing off the mound. Not a safe bet for '07 by any means, but I think the majority outlook on him is just a little overly grim at the moment.

Re: Wade Miller

The comments about Miller are right on the money. He is a near-lock to be in the starting rotation and, if healthy, could likely be the second best pitcher on the staff.

Re: Mark Prior

He won't pitch 40 innings in the big leagues in 2007. That much I am confident in forecasting.

Overrated - K.Wood(even when healthy)
F.Pie
Underrated - Howry (I can only recall one game where he was hit hard last season)

i'll try again...so, why you think prior wont pitch in 07 anyway? like...the reasons.

you've already written him out of 07 and say you're entitled to your opinion, but what is the reason behind it?

It might help to establish who's doing the "rating".

If it's Cubs management, then I'd say Murton and Theriot are underrated or undervalued. They overrate or overvalue Jones and Dempster.

Was anyone worse at "rating" than Dusty?

The comments about Miller are right on the money. He is a near-lock to be in the starting rotation and, if healthy, could likely be the second best pitcher on the staff.

With that you just moved Miller firmly into the OVERrated column. It's 2007 not 2002. If Miller is the second best pitcher on this staff, we're sunk.

To add to crunch's question: why are you optimistic about Miller (with his FAR worse injury history) but not Prior?

I hope I'm wrong but I believe Prior will need shoulder surgery.

unless Miller found some miles per hour on that fastball that he once had, (he was topping out at 90 last season) he's best bet is league average to slightly better. An optimisitic viewpoint is a high 3 ERA imo and 180+ innings, I think he'll hover around 4 all year in the ERA dept, we'll see about the innings.

I'm going to change my vote and go with Bogey -- a healthy Kerry Wood is the most overrated Cub.

Tons of talent, bursts of greatness, but always just a small step away from losing control. Never lived up to the (unrealistic) hype of the 20K's, but unrealistic hype is what makes a player over-rated.

Rothschild speaks-

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews...

"Now if they are able to come back, in Mark's case more than Kerry's because we're looking at him as a starter, then it's a huge addition to our pitching staff that should already be pretty good. But they've got a lot of hurdles to jump over before I can tell if they're going to be a big part of what we're doing."

The they he speaks of are Miller and Prior. I saw Miller pitch at the end of the season, I believe he is committed to becoming a good starter again.

Am I questioning Prior's commitment?
Yes, I don't have any proof except from the way he has acted the last two years.

I couldn't handle it, had to change the title....

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

The question is tough because you have to

A. Determine what the popular conception of a player is. And is that the popular conception in the mainstream media? Among Cubs fans? Among stat-heads? Among ALL of those communities?

B. Determine whether their conception of reality matches with your own conception of reality.

C. Come to the conclusion that their collective reality is wrong, and yours is right.

That said, here's my stab:

Overrated

Izturis
Soriano
Wood
Zambrano
Barrett
Pie
E. Patterson
Piniella

Underrated
Zambrano (both lists - different publics rank Z very differently)
Prior (speaking about at this very moment, right now)
Wuertz
Howry
Jones
Hill
W. Miller
Theriot
Murton

I wish I could give everyone the criteria for determining most overrated and most underrated but it's nothing more than a 3 word lead-in of Most Overrated Player: and Most Underrated Player: I'm not even sure if they want an explanation or just a name.

A funny story that's somewhat related... in November I was driving across the country, and we had left Chicago that afternoon on our way to Seattle. About 9 PM we stopped in some little Minnesota town off of route 90 to eat, and the only place that was open was an Applebee's (side note: Avoid Applebees on road trips at all costs - ugh). I noticed that there were Cubs pennants and logos all over the restaurant and I wondered why the Cubs and not the Twins, who were much closer geographically. On my way to the bathroom I passed a glass display case and found out why - this Applebee's was in Mike Wuertz's hometown, and there was a shrine to him in the display case - Minor league jerseys, newspaper clippings, baseball cards, the works!

Overrated - The Cubby Bear
Underrated - The Ginger Man

Agreed on the Cubby Bear.

Underrated-Bernies

Overrated: Derrek Lee
Underrated: Aramis Ramirez, Cesar Izturis

Flame on!

So long as we're talkin' taverns:

Overrated: Murphy's
Underrated: Yakzie's

Re: Michael Wuertz

Me thinks he is the next Todd Wellemeyer, who of course was the next Jon Leicester. Wuertz couldn't crack the pitching staff full time on a team that lost 97 games in 2006?!? Please.

If we're going with cub fans, then I don't see how Cesar is overrated. Everyone hates him except for me and Chad. The expectations that he'll be lucky to hit .200 makes him UNDERrated, in my book.

Overrated: Theriot. I'm willing to give him a shot, but some people are WAY into that guy.

I don't hate Cesar Izturis. Quite the opposite in fact. A healthy Izturis will be the best fielding shortstop in the National League. Izturis has ungodly range to his left and right, and should become best friend to the Cub pitching staff. If he can hit .260 then he'll be worth his weight in gold.

Overrated: Silent Towel

Underrated: garsky

"If [Izturis] can hit .260 then he’ll be worth his weight in gold."

Hitting 260 isn't the problem, he can do that. The problem is he just make a ton of outs (see the sub .300 OBP) to do so.

That said one black hole on offense will not kill the team. If his defense is as good as people say, he will likely be a plus or at least not a minus.

cards reup p.wilson for a million..

Cesar Izturis is a good ball player. If he stays healthy, then he stands good shot at becoming a fan favorite at Wrigley. His defense is exceptional. Which is especially important when Aramis Ramirez is your 3rd baseman and has the lateral range of a cement truck stuck in a mud bog. Good pitching and middle infield defense go hand and hand. What I'm dyin' to know is how good (or bad) Mark DeRosa will be at 2nd.

Overrated- Kerry Wood

Underrated- Matt Murton

Overrated - Bleed Cubbie Blue

Underrated - TCR

:) Just though I would kiss up a little bit...

Overrated - Red Dawn
Underrated - Manos, Hand of Fate

overrated: Deadspin

underrated: The Big Lead

Over: AT&T Park
Under: Candlestick Park

Overrated:
Eva Longoria, Evan Longoria

Underrated:
Eva Herzigova, Dwight Evans

Overrated:
Hot Dogs

Underrated:
Bratwurst

Overrated:
Guiness

Underrated:
Samuel Smith's

Overrated:
BMW

Underrated:
Accura

Overrated:
Philip K. Dick

Underrated:
Robert Anton Wilson

Overrated:
Hegel

Underrated:
Hume

Overrated:
Thoreau

Underrated:
Mill

Overrated:
Cleopatra

Underrated:
Hatshepsut

Overrated:
Star Trek, The Next Generation

Underrated:
Deep Space Nine

Overrated - Michael Barrett

Underrated - Michael Wuertz

Overrated:
The Indiana Jones series

Underrated:
Cannonball Run I and II

Overrated:
Paraguay

Underated:
Uraguay

Overrated:
Kazahkstan

Underrated:
Tajikistan

Overrated:
Teddy Roosevelt

Underrated:
Dwight Eisenhower

Overrated:
Tyra Banks

Underrated:
Laetitia Casta

"Overrated:
Teddy Roosevelt

Underrated:
Dwight Eisenhower"

UGH! Roosevelt was a bad ass! not to mention that he is pretty much the reason that football as we know it exists today. Eisnehower SUCKED. He was a company that didn't want to piss anyone off so we let the Soviet Union and China become what they did. We elected the wrong general. Patton and McCarthur, now if those guys were president, I would have joined the Army!

"Underrated:
Laetitia Casta" - May 5 years ago

roosevelt's badass image is commonly absent of the huge hordes of "support" he took with him to make his rough-and-ready adventures comfortable as possible. that's a bit overrated...he was today's equivalent of a guy in a SUV driving 3/4 up a mountain, hiking a couple miles with top gear, and then having a story for the rest of his life about the mountain he conquered.

eisenhower gets this rap from conservatives who think he was liberal and a wuss and other nonsense cuz of social security and ending US involvement in the korea war and other such things that makes his dick small.

he's the one who started this whole arms race thing with russia which began a huge money pit of govt. waste that pales his social security and national highway initiatives.

btw...patton a leader? the man couldnt work with others...all he could do was give orders and scream.

I'm very surprised that you like TR, although I'm not surprised at your view of Ike. Explain your pro-TR stance?

Crunch - very good TR analogy, that's just about it. I can easily imagine TR in a Range Rover commercial.

I actually LIKE TR, from both a personal perspective and a historian's perspective. But as a historian, I also think that he's wildly overrated in the popular imagination. He was a solidly above-average president who created an incredible, and totally undeserved public persona. I guess I could give him credit for having an exceptional sense of personal marketing.....

Overrated:
Family Guy

Underrated:
Futurama

Overrated: Bass
Underrated: Red Stripe

Overrated: US watered down Guinness
Underrated: Guinness via Dublin

That's absurd Trans...Guinness in general is NOT overrated! Especially if mixed properly with Guinness's evil sister Harp into a TRUE black and tan. Not that phony Guinness+Bass abortion most pubs run with.

Overrated: High Tops
Underrated: Johnny O'Hagens (you just have to walk a few blocks).

Agreed on Laetitia Costa though. Whatever happened to her...is she still insulting French cinema?

btw...except for TR's overblown (played to and for the media/public consumption) image the only other issue i have with the man i'd consider major would be his manifest destiny attitude and the belief of HIS brand of civilization being the one that he needs to force upon the world.

the man showcased american naval authority to other countries by pushing around smaller countries.

he did a lotta good...for all his comforts he loved while "roughing it" he did do a lot for conservation and continued to bust up american monopolies/trusts...on the other hand he sent our US military to other countries to make sure the rich and powerful could do as they will in these countries, something that continues to this day that sickens me.

the madness I started....

thanks for the suck up dave in comment #73, BCB lost me with Andre Dawson in the top 30. :)

Overrated:
Barry White

Underrated:
Al Green

Ok, I think I've played this out far longer than what's reasonable or even funny. Time to go write lectures.

Ciao.

You have to understand that if I was alive in that era, I would have been a 'liberal'. Back then, big business and factories were threatening to turn this country into a nightmare that Dickens couldn't even imagine. I believe that at that time Unions and regulation were necessary to keep business from running roughshod all over the working man. People didn't have the choices they have now. And with the influx of immigrants what was a guy to do besides go down the the factory or mine and risk dying. I could go on. But maybe what I like is his persona, whether real or made up. Perhaps the last real cowboy president.

Don't get me wrong Trans, I am a moderately conservative Republican who idolizes Reagan. But I also admire JFK, who I think was going to change the world and Truman, who was our last 'regular guy' president. I could go on for hours.

Lastly, I love Family Guy but if Futurama is not the most underrated show of all time, I don't know what is.

Ok, thanks Chad. I honestly was surprised, but that answer makes a lot of sense! And I knew you'd appreciate my Futurama rating. ~grin~

Ok, seriously, off to work.

Also, in TR's defense - it DOES make sense to me that a kid weakened by polio, and from a real upper-class background, would be extra-zealous in crafting a bad-ass tough guy image. So he gets a bit of slack from me, there.

I really am working, really.....

Underrated:
Charlie Manuel, Pat Burrell

Overrated - Curtis Granderson, Scott Podsednik

Underrated - Craig Wilson, Kevin Youkilis

Really? I like Granderson. Does strike out way too much.

Going to an earlier thread, I think Wilson is really sort of yesterday's news. "Free Craig Wilson" is SO 2004.

Youkilis, absolutely.

Really? I like Granderson. Does strike out way too much.

Yea...really. I am definitely not a fan.

And these numbers from the second half back it up: .238/.293/.408.

Does anyone call Youkilis "You Kills" - because that is what I thought you wrote when I glanced at it quickly: "You Kills, absolutely."

Underrated: Jack Buck
Overrated: Curt Gowdy

Underrated: Ted Simmons, Jose Cruz, Lou Whitaker

mmmm. Ted Simmons, Darrel Porter, Micky Tettleton.

Overrated (phrases):
"it is what it is"

Underrated:
"meh."

Overrated: Cosign on Bass
Underrated: Fat Tire

mmmmm, fat tire.

I'm not sure if they count as "underrated" or just "un-advertised", but I'm also a huge fan of Bell's and Dogfish Head.

Neither of which has a distributor in Arkansas, I learned the other day.

And AR is one of the states where it's illegal to ship booze into.

~sigh~

I'd kill for some two-hearted ale, oberon, 120 IPA or Raison d'Etra right now.....

"Baseball fans around the world owe Barry Bonds a debt of gratitude for being lucky enough to watch him play. He should be treasured by the national pastime, and a grand celebration by the commissioner's office should be in order."

-- Jeff Borris, Bonds' agent

If I was Bonds' agent, I'd say the same thing.

And actually, he's right. It's just impossible to make that statement, be connected to Bonds in anyway, and not sound like a completely egotistical jerk.

TRANS! DS9 is the shit! You have now moved up several notches (for whatever that does) in my book.

Rob - a twist:

underratted: the fact that the Cubs play most of their games in summer daytime heat as compared to other stadium home games

runner up: home-crowd/home-field advantage. Especially in Cinci, Milwaukee, etc. How many blue C hats do you see in the stands? Its amazing.

overrated: us fans. Sure I know we are long-suffering, etc, etc. I am sure sick of the 'loser-drink beer in the bleachers-skip work, skip school' fan label we get over and over in the press.

runner up - the curse, the goat

DS9 is so totally and completely the shit.

Some day, when I have tenure and can teach total jack-off frou-frou classes, I'm going to do one about DS9.

"Neither of which has a distributor in Arkansas"

the have both kinds of beer in Arkansas...Bud and Bud Lite.

underrated : the blues brothers car chase scene
overrated : the french connection car chase scene

underrated : tupper's hop pocket pilsner
overrated : cook county jail cell block C toilet apple mash liquor

Interesting, I would think the Blues Brothers' car chase scene is very, very highly regarded.

But no matter HOW highly regarded it is, it still rules more than us mere mortals can ever fully appreciate, so yeah, I guess it's still underrated!

Looks like the payroll finally went over the $120 Million mark. Here is the rough payroll situation after Floyd and Samardzija signings. And yes, for the record, we all know Crunch, you do not agree with the signing bonus breakdown I use.

2007
SET CONTRACTS:
Michael Barrett - $4.93MM ($4.8MM base + $130K prorated signing bonus)
Henry Blanco - $2.15MM ($1.4MM base + $750K signing bonus)
Neal Cotts - $825K
Ryan Dempster - $5.0MM
Mark DeRosa - $4.33MM (Guesstimate)
Scott Eyre - $3.5MM
Cliff Floyd - $3.0MM
Bobby Howry - $4.0MM
Cesar Izturis - $4.15MM
Jacque Jones - $5.33MM ($4.0MM base + $1.33MM prorated signing bonus)
Derrek Lee - $13.0MM
Ted Lilly - $9.0MM ($5.0MM base + $4.0MM signing bonus)
Jason Marquis - $4.75MM
Wade Miller - $1.5MM
Will Ohman - $900K
Aramis Ramirez - $13.0MM
Glendon Rusch - $3.25MM
Jeff Samardzija - $2.5MM ($500K base [Guesstimate]+ $2.0MM signing bonus)
Alfonso Soriano - $17.0MM
Daryl Ward - $1.05MM
Kerry Wood - $1.75MM
TOTAL (21) - $104.915MM

AUTO RENEWAL:
Rich Hill - $380K
Matt Murton - $380K
Angel Pagan - $380K
Ryan Theriot - $380K
Michael Weurtz - $380K
TOTAL (5) - $1.9MM

ARBITRATION (Guesstimates):
Mark Prior - $3.7MM
Carlos Zambrano - $13.0MM
TOTAL (2) - $16.7MM

TOTAL PAYROLL (28) - $123.515MM

***These figures do not count any possible incentive/performance bonuses & does not count the $3.0MM buyout of Kerry Wood contract***

i was just playing around more than anything...people love that french connection car chase scene, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqRaLUN98aY

its considered one of the best of all time in film circles.

70s produced some all-time great cinema (before Jaws came and screwed up american cinema forever...the blockbuster that eats studio money and advertising takes the role of what really pushes a film to the public).

damn smiley faces...Should say 28

Overrated: Soriano
Underrated: I don't know -- Floyd?

I'm tempted to put Mark Prior in the "underrated" position, but as he hasn't really pitched in 2 years, he can't go there. Still, people here and elsewhere treat him like he's a back-stabbing pissy piece of shite, and come on folks, he's been injured.

Theriot's another one to put there, but I have a bad bad feeling he's going to be Ronny Cedeno v. 2.0.

I totally agree with ya regarding Prior. HE was an absolute HORSE for us in 2003, and now everyone wants to forget that and question his manhood. Pretty easy to call an injured pitcher names from a cushy computer chair. He may never be the same pitcher again, but the non-sensical hatred hurled at him by some of the fans (remember, fan is short for fanatic) is a mirror image to the non-sensical adulation they once gave him.

cedeno tearing up venezuela playoffs...

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...

**3** triples and 11 xbase hits...12 runs scored, 10 rbi in 18 games hitting .317

mmmmm, fat tire.

The only way you can buy fat tire around Chicago is if you buy 40-ouncers. I can't get it here (Minnesota) at all.

Overrated: Extended Spring Training
Underrated: Arizona Fall League

oops..that article is 3 days old.

btw...cubs have an offer on the table for schmidt. 3/44.

source?

Let it go Crunch, that joke wasn't funny 2 months ago.

overrated: Izturis's arm
underrated: Wuertz's slider

and it will probably continue to be unfunny months/years from now.

i'll cut back, though, seriously...i just try to throw a little something into joke/junk posts when i gotta correct myself cuz though i promise to proofread more, i f'n never do.

I take it this is a joke from back when I wasn't anywhere to be found....

I always suspected I wasn't one of the cool kids....

The Blues Brothers car crash scene has the record for total amount of damaged cars per scene but the best car chase scenes are found in Ronin.

there was a thread where the "news" about the cubs rumored offer to schmidt was posted by a ton of people throughout the thread...it just became a running joke for a while.

now a very few just bring it up time to time and ive been killing it a bit.

Transmission:

I totally agree with ya regarding Prior. HE was an absolute HORSE for us in 2003, and now everyone wants to forget that and question his manhood. Pretty easy to call an injured pitcher names from a cushy computer chair.

What about non-sensical sentimentality? Yeah, '03 was nice, but for the last 2-3 years Prior has either been a. not healthy, or b. not good. The Cub's needed to replace him last off season and let him earn his way back into the rotation. He should play in Iowa until he's ready for the big leagues.

... admittedly, in a market where Gil Meche wins a 5/55 contract, "replacing Prior" is easier said than done.

except for last year's performance every time he's taken the field he's been good more than bad.

the injuries suck, but its not like when he shows back up he's just awful...he's just not the mark prior we knew or got to know anymore.

after last year he's gotta show he can find the damn plate unlike last season...after that, it'd be nice to see the HR balls go down and see less deep counts, but even a less-than-"normal" prior is a heck of a #2-4 pitcher.

yeah but a lot of that has to do with loss of velocity. Previously 94-95. Recently 90-91. Command off too which is the result of rust and probable elbow or shoulder injury. If the MRI seriously shows no damage then there's not a whole lot Prior can do. If he and the Cubs are putting off surgery and hoping for rehab then that's just stupidity.

Manny,

Below is a quote regarding the Cubs payroll from Phil Rogers on January 21.

Is the difference between your numbers and his based on the signing bonuses and the Floyd signing?

"Unless the Cubs have one more big move in them, the early projections of their 2007 payroll were way too high. They currently have 21 players signed or offered arbitration at a range of $100.5 million-$105.5 million (including pro-rated signing bonuses), the range representing the low and high end of Carlos Zambrano and Mark Prior's arbitration filings."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sport...

Baseball America pushed back the Cub top ten prospect report to Feb 5th. Must have something to do with waiting for after the superbowl.

Actually they just released the Reds list, topped by Homer Bailey. The Pirates report is supposed to be released on Wed 1/31

"Is the difference between your numbers and his based on the signing bonuses and the Floyd signing?"

a big difference is he's lumping all the bonus money into 1 year insted of breaking it up over the length of the contact like everyone else would.

its the thing he took a "zing" at me about cuz i told him this issue would come up when his numbers dont match the numbers everyone else in the world is gonna report.

they'll get 10 zillion letters about why it was pushed back...it'll be explained sometime soon...hehe

ok, here's a controversial one:

overrated:

JRR Tolkein

underrated:

Lloyd Alexander

LNL:
"Is the difference between your numbers and his based on the signing bonuses and the Floyd signing?"

Not sure, you would need to ask him as he didn't show the figures for each player. I don't see how he could be off $15 million, but journalism isn't what it used to be...:)

oh...that list has new additions, too

for some reason samninja's there...and someone else who's excess tallent...it seems to be a mix of people's pro-rated contracts while bonuses are lumped and any contract handed out is being counted.

Crunch:
"a big difference is he’s lumping all the bonus money into 1 year instead of breaking it up over the length of the contact like everyone else would."

All? What about JJ and Barrett? They don't count? :)

So not all, I prorated the ones that are paid out prorated and I counted in full the bonuses that were paid out in one lump sum. I was going by other salary sites and media reports to get that info. And this info is not anything offical nor anything that would match dollar for dollar with MLB and how them determine luxery tax. This is just a rough rundown of what the Cubs will be spending this year. I never claimed otherwise.

And Crunch, please explain this. Rafael Furcal signed a deal last offseason with a base salary of $4.0 million in 2007, but yet 4 different baseball sites listed his salary at almost $9 million:
ESPN - $8,730,196 million
CBSSportsline - $8,730,196 million
Baseball-Reference - $8,715,508 million
USA Today - $8,715,508 million

He was given a $5.0 million signing bonus. Why did those media outlets not report his 2004 take as $5.67 million, which would have the signing bonus prorated out? Thanks!!

Good catch about Samardja. He should not be on there as he won't be in the bigs this year. I put him on my list to keep track of his contract, but shouldn't be in 2007 payroll. So you can take out $2.5 million. Thanks!!

Overrated: Transmission

Underrated: Arizona Phil

:-)

when mlb draws up their revenue charts they prorate the bonuses...now with this, a team can also report their bonus money as payroll. this is a tax advantage on both sides i cant really explain cuz that's not close a knowledge area that i have.

some people get their bonuses at once...some get them over a period of time and it doesnt have to be evenly over the period of the contract.

but counting bonuses as a direct payroll hit doesnt work.

every team does it differently and every team has different expenses. some of this bonus loot comes out of development/draft/etc. money that the team holds...some out of an established bonus pool...some GMs get a yearly budget and some get a sum for years and are told to spend it wise cuz that's what theyre there for. it all depends on the owner's focus or the GM's slickness.

your payroll list is just simply weird with the addition of samninja, btw...it just seems to be an expendature tablet at this point...might as well add pinella and find out how much the new coaches are getting paid.

i started writing the above before i read your samninja response.

now it makes more sense.

there's also 1 player too many (2, but rusch's pay is still gonna count until further notice with i doubt will materialize), but the player who will be dropped is probally a minimum wage guy anyway.

"when mlb draws up their revenue charts they prorate the bonuses…now with this, a team can also report their bonus money as payroll. this is a tax advantage on both sides i cant really explain cuz that’s not close a knowledge area that i have."

doh...i meant...

now with this, a team can also report their FULL bonus money as payroll. (as in, they can report the full paid in at once so it doesnt count toward future revenue).

sorry...that was one muddled point in that paragraph.

"Jack's Nauseated Stomach — January 29, 2007 @ 7:53 pm

“Baseball fans around the world owe Barry Bonds a debt of gratitude for being lucky enough to watch him play. He should be treasured by the national pastime, and a grand celebration by the commissioner’s office should be in order.”

– Jeff Borris, Bonds’ agent'

Anyone ever see Kentucky Fried Movie? The scene in "A Fistful of Yen" when when Dr. Klahn is addressing everyone:

"We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. We forge our tradition in the spirit of our ancestors. You have our gratitude. "

Oh and Crunch you know you movies but the granddaddy of all car chases is from "Bullitt"

Lastly, Lloyd Alexander. I forgot how much I loved that series and you're damn right, it kills the LOTR.

Overrated: Larry Rothschild
Underrated: Yosh Kawano

Overrated: Peyton Manning
Underrated: Rex Grossman

Overrated: Spotted Cow
Underrated: Fat Squirrel

Bonds deal done...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2...

I say he breaks the record on Saturday, July 14th at home vs. the LA Dodgers against Brad Penny.

Rob:

Did you decide who you're picking for over/under rated?

Sammy's Deal Official with Rangers:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2...

If Sosa makes the team, make sure you circle these dates on your calender:
- April 17-19 @ Chicago White Sox
- June 19-21 vs. Chicago Cubs

It will be interesting to see if he does make the team, but suddenly gets sick for those games or if he will actually play in them. Remember back in 2005 when he was with Baltimore, he didn't play in the series at the White Sox.

someone from B.P. was picking him to play only 150ab's and hitting like .200 with 5 homers or something.

somewhere they have the injury-year followed by a year off with no knowlege of conditioning matrix to plug that into. fancy.

ken rosenthall with his best bit of writing yet...and i quote...

"LOLOLOL!" - reacting to bond's agent's statements on bonds.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6420696

You know the media is upset that Bonds deal went through. I am sure they were dying to see it fall through.

I think it is just time to accept it, Bonds will be the Home Run King in a few months.

Overratted: The alleys in Chicago

UnderRaided: the surviving cockroaches in my basement

Unless Hank Aaron hires a bunch of hoodlums to take a bat to Barry Bonds' knee. If you're reading this Hank, just remember, no jury in the world would convict and if they do, I'll be more than happy to "convince" them otherwise :-D.

Overeasy: eggs

Underglass: pheasant

Did you decide who you’re picking for over/under rated?

I'm not 100% decided yet but I like Wuertz for underrated and Soriano for overrated. I think money plays a huge factor in this and for what we're paying Soriano, he's hardly a complete hitter (there's a chance he'll only be the third best hitter next year for us) and right now he's a man without a position and wherever he plays it's doubtful he'll be anything more than passable defensively. Carlos Beltran he's not....

There's all kinds of ways to go with the underrated, but Wuertz has been pretty good the last 2 years and seems to continue to get ignored by our GM and that previous manager.

I did want to respond on the Barrett talk though....

For $4 million that we pay him or whatever, we get one of the best offensive catchers in the game. I'll take that any day. This theory that you can't win without a defensive catcher seems silly to me (for example, the 2005 Chicago White Sox). Almost as silly as you have to have a prototypical leadoff man. News flash for everyone, there's no one key to winning baseball other than scoring more runs than your opponent. There's hundreds of different combinations to get there though. The next time Barrett has a healthy staff will be the first time he had a healthy staff. And even so, in 2004, when we were healthier, we were like 3rd or so in the league in team pitchig. The last two years have been a disaster of injuries and folks seem to want to put all the blame on Barrett for it.

I'd skew him more towards underrated just because I love his work ethic, but his defense is pretty damn atrocious and he finds a way to do one or two stupid things a year, that I think his perception is just about right. I do wonder what the Cubs will do with him this offseason.

Thanks for all your responses though....

Overrated: Theo Epstein (and it pains me to say it)
Underrated: Larry Beinfest

Overrated: Ben Wallace

Underrated: Thomas Jones saving the season by batting down the tipped pass that was almost intercepted late in the Seattle playoff game

By the way, if the Bears win on Sunday Lovie Smith could go from underrated to overrated status in a 24 hour period

ROB: "News flash for everyone..."

O.K., Zoolander. Thanks.

JACQUE never asked to be traded - those of you theorists out there who "think" otherwise:

From the Muskrat, herself - Cubs.com mailbag, today.

"I must take you to task over your answer about whether or not Jones wanted to stay in Chicago and be a member of the Cubs. In a recent interview on ESPN, when asked that question, he never replied to the question directly but stammered and stuttered all over the place and avoided giving a definitive answer."
-- Claude N., Chicago

I asked Jones myself, and he did not stammer or stutter or avoid the question. He wants to play for the Cubs and does not want to be traded.

>>Fess up! Which one of you wrote her??

Over Dunn: Overur
Under Dunn: Unger

Airplane II anyone?

DISAGREE!

Chadball!

60% of the time is works everytime!

Apparently Junior Spivey hasn't given up...he signed a minor league deal with the Sux.

Overrated - Miggy B-12 Tejada
Underrated - Carlos Guillen

Overrated - The Breakfast Club
Underrated - Heathers

Overrated - Top 5 lists
Underrated - Over/under lists

"JACQUE never asked to be traded - those of you theorists out there who “think” otherwise"

did you see the ESPN interview with him by chance?

not trying to start crap but it was pretty transparent he wanted out and even gave reasons.

he never committed to it, but when asked about it he cited very quickly his issues with chicago and his newborn son, wife, mother, and personal feelings.

that said, he never dragged the team or his situation through the mud or acted like a baby about it. he was a true professional about it as far as i can tell.

now that it looks like he's happy and staying...hurrah.

I think E-man was kidding....

Yep!

But its good to know he's on board, at least on the surface.

As has been pointed out here by many, Manny Ramirez has "been on the block" for what? Three years now?

i kinda wonder what jones' asking price was and how close (if at all) hendry got to an offer than was even slightly reasonable.

hell, im just glad he's staying and can contribute to the power surge in 6 of the lineup slots.

hopefully izturis/derosa/theriot (cedeno?) can add enough of a supporting cast to the power bats.

Carrie Muskat = Paris Hilton - hotness.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Good One Carlos!

Boy - are we BORED, or what?!

Comments broken or are we just feeling quiet this afternoon?

i guess the boredom wore off...

Post lunch coma.

Overrated - Barry Zito & 7/$126m

Zito

2005 14-13, .386 ERA, 228.1 IP, 89 BB, 171 Ks, .221 BAA, 6.74 K/9, 1.20 WHIP

2006 16-10, .383 ERA, 221 IP, 99 BB, 151 Ks, .257 BAA, 6.15 K/9, 1.40 WHIP

? NL pitcher in an extreme hitters park

2005 11-13, 3.83 ERA, 211.2 IP, 51 BB, 163 Ks, .273 BAA, 6.93 K/9, 1.27 WHIP

2006 16-11, 3.76 ERA, 234.1 IP, 56 BB, 216 Ks, .269 BAA, 8.30 K/9, 1.27 WHIP

underrated - Aaron Harangatang. Would Harang get a 7/$126m deal if he were a FA. Nope...more like 5/$50m. Stats very close to Zito while Zito's trending downward in almost all categories while Harang's are going up. Gives up a lot of hits but that's partly because he's Brad Radke esque constantly in the strike zone.

Rob,

I continue to think that Miller is the most underrated. Wuertz is a good choice as well. But personally, I think that an effective starting pitcher contributes more than an effective middle reliever. Let me tell you why you're wrong about Miller. You said it yourself. Even you think that Miller has done absolutely nothing in the offseason to build strength and get back into game shape. I'm not saying that I have any sort of special info, but what Miller showed me during that last month of the season is that he was finally sound in that shoulder and just needed to build strength. That's a heck of a lot different than what Prior showed us (which is that for all we know his elbow and achilles are still messed up). Miller is now 2 years removed from surgury and like you've said just needs to build up arm strength. He's about 5 mph shy of where he should be. I think he can do it. And the total lack of support that he has received not only from the media, the fans, or even guys like us on this website tells me that what I'm projecting as his production next season FAR EXCEEDS what everyone seems to think about him. If you look at what he did for an Astros team when he was healthy, I believe that you can begin to see why I've got a little optimism here.

Soriano as most overrated. Yeah I can see that if you're factoring in the money. But he has been a good hitter for a lot of years now. Whether he's going to be so awesome that he actually earns every penny of his huge salary, I can't say. What I can say is that to me... most overrated means that people think a guy is going to produce wonderfully and when the season comes around... he performs way below that. Will Soriano perform way below our expectations? I don't think so.

Will Jacque Jones possibly not be the .285 30HR guy that everyone seems to be taking for granted? That is more likely. Last year Jacque was electric at the plate (as far as Jacque is concerned). The prior two years he had problems with his batting average. Before that, he didn't hit for much power. Last year he seemed to really put it all together at the plate and really did well after a slow start and fans getting down on him hard. He's not happy with the criticism he's received in Chicago. And I think we both know that Jacque will have to really come out of the gate hitting well to avoid the boos again this year. That's a recipe for disaster, and thankfully Jim thought ahead and signed Cliff Floyd as a backup plan.

While I do hope that Jacque Jones somehow continues to do what he did with the bat last year, I have to say that he's the player most likely to not meet expectations this season and thus be the most Overrated Cub on this team. People expect good production from Jacque, and we don't really know if they'll get it.

So Sayeth the God of WAR!

Just because you don't meet expectations doesn't mean you're overrated. I think of an overrated player as one whose accomplishments aren't quite as great as they appear to be. For me, that's typified by Soriano.

Wow. Is this still going?

Overrated:
Soriano
Joe Buck
Yo La Tengo
Takashi Miike

Underratted:
Arcade Fire
Angel Pagan
Jose Macias
Kiyoshi Kurosawa

arcade fire wont be underrated for long...they're already being called the "next U2" by some..

Arcade Fire is vastly overrated already...maybe not to people who generally listen to Jimmy Buffett or Green Day but after going platinum in the US alone, being nominated for Grammys, winning 3 Juno awards for Funeral, having a song in Six Feet Under, highest selling Merge release ever. etc. that's not underrated.. Yo La Tengo is underrated...they're not Sonic Youth or Guided By Voices good but they're a solid band. I think they've sold 100,000 albums once and get little media attention other than being Magnet Magazine darlings in the past.

Why would I say they're underrated, if I generally listen to Jimmy Buffet or Green Day? On a side note, how the hell did you choose those two artists? American Idiot was good, I have to admit.

But, perhaps I mispoke. I don't follow mainstream hardly at all and was talking mostly from my experiences in the Indie realm (friends, indie radio etc.). But your probably right...Arcade Fire does seem to be getting a lot of notice. Though they're starting to fade, all I used to ever hear was how great YLT was. I'll try again:
Overrated: Death Cab for Cutie
Underrated: Cloud Cult

They're definitely overrated in the indie community. I didn't even mention the opening slot on U2's last tour, and according to their management's press release, they were on 26 best of lists for Funeral in music magazines included the best of the indie world, BTO, Magnet, DIW etc.

underrated: every band on the Secretly Canadian label aside from Antony & the Johnsons (ton of press last year)

Though I'm biased since I worked there for the 2 years I was in grad school.

I like drink pivo. Thanks

tlrjad jasqem xuhb hagfjd xoewq gnbm hwlifmb

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