Game 51 Thread / Marlins @ Cubs (3 of 3)

Game Chat Sergio Mitre vs. Ted Lilly Lineups:
Abercrombie CF Soriano LF
Uggla 2b Theriot SS
Ramirez SS Lee 1B
Cabrera 3B Floyd RF
Willingham LF Ramirez 3B
Hermida RF DeRosa 2B
Olivo C Jones CF
Boone 1B Blanco C
Mitre P Lilly P
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Comments

No Shituris?

Theriot sucks. He shouldn't be in the lineup. OMCONTROVERY!~

The Score is reporting odd happenings at Wrigley: there was an all-player meeting today and that Lou Piniella skipped pre-game interviews and is "holed up" in his office with Jim Hendry and John McDonough.

Interesting... let the speculation begin!

OMCONTROVERSY!~!*

As being reported by KCHAD:

Lou Pinella is being fired before tonight's game. Joe Girardi is on a plane as we speak.

Ooh. Litsch goes 0.2 innings for Toronto.

Don't tease me like that Chad, you evil person.

Maybe during this all players meeting they are deciding as a group to stop being stupid. Or maybe they are going to ban stupid from the clubhouse in addition to the beer. Somebody has a case of infectious stupid and must be eliminated. It wasn't Dusty, nor Neifi, the stupidness continues. I think it's the catcher, he looks kind of stupid.

Lou Pinella is being fired before tonight’s game. Joe Girardi is on a plane as we speak.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendry wouldn't have the balls.

Maybe they should ban stupid and bring back beer.

I will take Cubs Night Games for $300, Alex.

The answer is:
The Cubs play two consecutive home games after a day game during the same series.

Ding
Neal
What the fuck?

Correct.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""

I've stated it before, but if the Cubs are only allowed a limited number of night games, they should be able to schedule them to their advantage. Can anyone come up with any reason that they have a night game today?

from another blog, says it was about a 2 hr meeting between lou and the bigwigs. Something about no sign of Barrett at Wrigley.

"Don’t tease me like that Chad, you evil person."

Just going with my sources, man. Not my fault if they pass along bad info. I guess we all better watch out now for faulty reports from those bastards at KCHAD

Barrett and Marshall for Loiza and Suzuki?

Neal,

I think that they try to schedule monday and tuesday games at wrigley at night. But the holiday probably screwed it up. Since florida only goes to Milwaukee to play a night game, that is probably still kosher.

Lou on Comcast right now, nothing big from the looks of it

Neal...in a heartbeat. Unfortunately Seattle has a catcher that can both hit AND catch.

yeah, whole lot of nothing from what I just read. Meeting with bigwigs is scheduled once a month, Barrett was getting treatment for something (possibly).

Rob G

wasant Blanco named Zambranos personal catcher, its a bit odd that he would get today off and then again on Friday. Maybe he is hurt

My point is, that if we only have 18 night games, every one of them should be returning from a road trip, with no day off, following a night game. Neither of these two games, for example, meet that criteria.

The Joe,

I was talking about the A's, not the Sub-500-ers.

Oh sorry THAT Suzuki. For some reason I though Loaiza was in Seattle now. Anyway, moving on...

You mean Barrett and Marshall for Kurt Suzuki and Esteban Loaiza?

Hmmm....Suzuki is hitting .276/.352/.374 at AAA...with 3 HR and 24 RBI. Not horrible.

Loaiza is on the 60-day DL though, and talking about knee surgery.
Anyone else?

"My point is, that if we only have 18 night games, every one of them should be returning from a road trip, with no day off, following a night game. Neither of these two games, for example, meet that criteria.''

How often do we come home from a night game to play a day game the very next day? I'll be that doesn't happen too often. In fact, I'll go look it up.

according to Levine, D.Lee is the one who called the players only meeting. No other details.

Derrek Lee is mad. Sergio Mitre is in trouble.

The Real Neal:
I will take Cubs Night Games for $300, Alex.

Old school Jeopardy. Sweet.

CT Steve:
Interesting… let the speculation begin!

Barrett trade imminent?

I think they added night games this year...

up to 36 or something.

i can't find game times but from here on out, every last game of a series is followed by an off day or night game.

michael barrett for kurt cobain

cubs down 3-0 early is simply a blessing these days as I can go do something else with my time and rest assured no comeback will happen while I am not watching

8-0, proof meetings cant help bad teams

Hey guys, I've got good news.

TOMORROW'S AN OFF DAY! WOOOOOOOO!!!!

I'm so happy.

no more player only meetings!

This is some powerful sucking going on tonight.

Absolutely revolting.

contracts and tradeability aside, which position players on this team would be classified as keepers?

Lou's honeymoon was short and is officially over now.

eli18

Lee
Ramirez
Soriano
Theriot

"Lee
Ramirez
Soriano
Theriot "

Un-FUCKING-real. Theriot? Are you fucking kidding? What the hell is wrong with you?

Ever watch Sesame Street? Rememeber that song that goes, "One of these things is not like the the other, one of these things just doesn't belong"

Here's the list of 100% keepers:

Lee
Ramirez
Soriano

My idea of keepers: Lee, Ramirez, Theriot

I agree with Kevin, though I would not have Theriot on that list.

While I like Theriot, his production is also relatively easy to replace.

Lee, A-Ram, and Soriano are the only three that I would not be willing to trade in the right deal.

I think I'd have to wait for a very good deal before I'd trade Rich Hill, but I guess that doesn't put him on that list.

I also think I'll wait another 30 days before I start talking fire sale. You won't get anything in return for our pieces at this point in the season, anyway.

After DeRosa got hit with that message (?) pitch in the 9th he squatted down and said, "What the fuck was that?".

I was wondering the same thing. It'd be fun to see some HBP tomorrow.

I deny the Cubs the right to have a Culture Crisis at this moment.

This is not to say that they are not a team in crisis. They are the Lindsey Lohan of baseball teams. What I object to is the managerial intrigue/dithering, and the companion mental image of players holding meetings in which they wring their hands about Piniella's style or their playing time or day games or what-have-you.

This franchise has been utterly saturated with that nonsense for decades, and no executive, manager, or player has ever put a stop to it. Why the people associated with the organization insist on not only being incompetent, but also being sniveling excuse-mongers, I have no idea. But I am awfully, awfully tired of it.

I went to tonight's game -- left in disgust after the 7th.

When Lilly served up the 2HRs in the first inning, I thought, that's OK, the wind is blowing out to left, and Lee, Ramirez and Soriano are due to combine for a big power night.....annnnnd the bigggest Cub threat was a medium fly ball by Henry (Wow! I hit the ball to the outfield!) Blanco.

I'm sure Hendry loved watchig Mitre just toy with the Cubs -- striking them out by the bunch with the same pitch (sinker in the dirt) that he threw when he was here. Gosh, if only there were a scouting report that said "He throws a sinker. Lay off the low pitches, and make him bring the ball up." I seriously doubt the Cub hitters make any effort to learn opposing pitchers. Well, at least that Juan Pierre trade was a win-win deal.

Swept...at home...by the medicore Marlins.

Abandon ship! Abandon ship!

Lets face it, the only person who didnt lose their job last season shouldve been the first to lose his job. Jim Hendry is a miserable failure and while he has had a few good trades, it cant make up for the 04-05-06 and now 07.

its still a boar

Is Hendry a drinking man?

Wasn't that enjoyable

I'm retarded? You're the one who thinks that Ryan Theriot is a special player. He's not. He's utterly replaceable. You just look at his OBP and get an erection. THere is nothing special about his game. There are a hundred guys just like him.

Just the other day I asked, very calmly, if given 500 abs a season, what player would Ryan Theriot emulate. The only real answer that anyone could come up with was David Eckstien. Now don't get me wrong, I like Eck, but he ain't untouchable. He's not Derek Jeter.

On another note, you don't trade Rich Hill or Sean Marshall right now.

Wind blowing out to left -- and we get 5 hits, all singles.

I have attended some terrible games over the years, and this one was right up there. When Mitre had 4 K's in 2 innings, I knew the Cubs were done.

The most damning thing -- the crowd wasn't even all that angry -- more resigned than anything.

Sad to see that 75 wins could win the division -- and the Cubs won't even contend.

Our 3 lefty fly ball pitchers may be in for a long, long summer.

I dont think he is a special player, he is cheap and is decent, it doesnt hurt keeping him around unless there is a trade that will get us someone like Arod.

But then again knowing Jim Hendry, he will package a deal of Zambrano, Hill and Theriot and send them to the Yankees and Arod will opt out at the end of the year and go the the Angels

I hope everyone TiVo'd the DLee slam against the Sox -- the last happy moment of the 2007 season.

Only players I keep are Lee, ARam and Theriot. It's not like Theriot is a HoF player, but he's a very nice, cheap addition to a ballclub. And as much as people like to deny it, teams win because of their cheap additions, ala the Cardinals last year.

Soriano isn't worth the contract.

CHAD: "You just look at his OBP and get an erection."

HOW do you know if he is that horny?

all the more time this summer to now tune up the golf game.

Why do I feel like this team has no heart?

advanced scouting?

Actually, I lied, I would have kept Lee, ARam, Theriot, Murton, Barrett, Hill, Guzman, Marshall, brought EPat, Marmol and Pie up and rebuilt. But eh, I think I'm done discussing the Cubs for a while.

what is there to be angry about? This team sucks, just like the Majority since 1945. There is no use in getting upset over a bunch of sorry losers who cant even play the game right. A bunch of underachieving crybabies who would rather make an excuse, any excuse instead of actually playing better. We can only hope that after the season the new owner puts smart baseball people in there

BILLYBUCKS: "Swept…at home…by the medicore Marlins."

Cubster and I in attendance as well (thanks, CUBSTER).

Well, when a team kicks your ass, I'd say WE are the ones that are mediocre, or worse.

They have some talented, young, players. Mitre had movement on his pitches and made our guys look stupid (of course they ARE fucking stupid for swinging at pitches in the dirt or way outside).

And, as CWTP pointed out at the beginning of the season, it was nice of us to fork over three decent arms for Dick-head Pierre.

CUBSTER and I discussed just how the dominoes fell when Hendry missed on the Furcal deal. EVERYTHING for years to come are going to be affected by the deal that seems shortsighted - or ill-timed now.

The loss of Furcal caused desparation. Desparation caused overpayment for Dick-Head Pierre, which caused him to go after Soriano as "the leadoff guy" and deal for The Turd, as well as signing DeRosa for too much.

SO its about 67 days to the Bears first pre-season game, this year is OVER without a doubt, and 2008 will be interesting.

I think it would be interesting if ROB G had a Lou bags-it pool.

I can honestly say tonight , and during the last ten days, we have matched 2006's uglieness.

"Why do I feel like this team has no heart?"

because they dont, hopfully a huge change from top to bottom will get things moving in a better direction

soriano/lee/ramirez

how f-ing pathetic is it that a team with a 100MM payroll has such little substance.

that is the measure of a failed General Managing tenure.

i wouldnt be at all surprised to see Pinella quit at the end of the year or maybe even sooner.

very frustrating that this team could be just as good as they've been bad.

blah blah tallent is there blah blah done it before blah blah shown it this year (well, except howry/eyre/Z) blah blah etc.

anyway...not like i'd be suprised to see a winning streak, but im at the point where i wouldnt be even slightly shocked to see this team just muck around .500.

eman, I do hate this team, but in all fairness....

we all said furcal was overpriced. we all said soriano was too. Hindsight is 20/20, and to blame the furcal deal is just simply monday morning quarterbacking. What if we got furcal and not soriano, then overspending is ok cause it worked out for us?

I just hope there is something to year 1 on big contracts and the expectations of being a savior. See Ben Wallace, Soriano, Moose, That blackhawk goalie, etc

You shouldnt be surprised, its exactly what they have done all season

crunch:
" im at the point where i wouldnt be even slightly shocked to see this team just muck around .500."

Yep, I have thought that way since the beginning of ST, welcome aboard...

7 games under .500 for Cubs now....NEW low water mark.

Reup Hendry!!!

In looking at the 111 games left this year, the team needs to go 59 and 52 in order to finish .500.

IMHO, the way they have been playing since the beginning of the year, I am sorry but I just do not see it.

I was for the signing of Furcal. In fact, the shorter contract would have been fine. In looking at the Dodgers while in LA this past weekend, Ned Coletti has assembled a fine club. It would have been so nice to have canned Hendry and given him a chance with the team that he was with for so long.

"Yep, I have thought that way since the beginning of ST, welcome aboard…"

that's nice...you should have shared the Z/eyre/howry collapse with the rest of us. been nice if you would have calmed our nerves about marquis, too.

seriously, compared to the rest of the rest of the central especially, this was one of the best looking teams the cubs has attempted to assemble in a long long long time. the pen collapse has been the most damning thing so far and no one was calling that one anywhere near this extent.

"Cliff Floyd batted fourth on Wednesday for the first time. He was inserted between right-handed hitters Lee and Ramirez."

In theory, this is a good idea, honored by many teams past and present including the current Cardinals (Duncan, Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen).

In practice, for a cleanup hitter, Floyd hits a lot of singles these days. His swing has gotten pretty slow, even for a guy pushing 35. I've noticed lately that if a pitcher has a good fastball, that's all Floyd sees.

That scouting report wouldn't apply to Mitre and he gave up a couple of hits to Floyd.

Iowa back on track tonight, 7-2 after seven, two hits each by Pie, Fontenot and Hoffpauir and (I hesitate to mention it) a home run by Cedeno.

wellemeyer just got a win in his first ever mlb start (didnt know he never started)...ugly performance, but the bats bailed him out.

"Kevin — May 30, 2007 @ 9:12 pm
I dont think he is a special player, he is cheap and is decent, it doesnt hurt keeping him around unless there is a trade that will get us someone like Arod.

Johann — May 30, 2007 @ 9:17 pm
Only players I keep are Lee, ARam and Theriot. It’s not like Theriot is a HoF player, but he’s a very nice, cheap addition to a ballclub. And as much as people like to deny it, teams win because of their cheap additions, ala the Cardinals last year."

Cheap and decent does not make a player untouchable. You don't trade IMPACT players. Players the make a difference. Theriot will not make a difference on any major league team.

I don't think Floyd in the four hole is such a bad deal...for trying something just for the sake of trying it. At least he's actually MAKING IT TO FIRST BASE.

In the last week, his .333 is the best average of anybody on the team. Sadly, that's also his slugging percentage.

That's gotta be two consecutive wins for Wellemeyer against the Rockies.

His last one was under slightly different conditions.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/C...

Don't click that if you don't want to be reminded. I warned you.

"Cheap and decent does not make a player untouchable. You don’t trade IMPACT players. Players the make a difference. Theriot will not make a difference on any major league team"

i didnt know he retired and is no longer playing and if he is even close to Eckstien, he will have a impact on a team.

Wes
ah the game where Prior got hit on the elbow

Kevin,

I'm not sure what was wrong with my phrasing. I don't see how i goofed and mispoke. I did notice a typo. But the grammar seems alright.

Any how if you really want to split hairs then Neifi Perez will make an impact on any major league team as would Lenny Harris or Ted Williams unfrozen head. But when I am talking about impact, I'm talking numbers that will truely effect a team. Like Derrek Lee's numbers or Albert Puljos' numbers or Vladdy or any great player that would be untouchable. Unlike Theriot, whose stats, when compared to the stars of the leauge don't even fucking register. But you can keep Ryan Theriot and I'll take Aramis Ramirez.

you can have your opinon, i can have mine. Impact players make a difference but most championship teams have scrappy players like theriot and while there might be 600 players just like him out there, he is cheap. There is no point in trading him and them have Izturis playing everyday and then going out and paying a couple million for someone just like theriot who is making 390,000.

We have a minor league system for a reason and trading everyone in it has gotten the cubs nowhere.

here is why we are losing folks

"Not at all," he said. "I know we have a good enough team to compete in this division. We're terribly disappointed we're not doing better but very confident that it's not a bad team. It's a good team. We just haven't won enough games."

Jim Hendry

I wonder if he has thought that maybe the reason they are losing is because they are a bad team

dont bring up the hitting stats because you are only as strong as your weakest link. The bullpen and lack of clutch hitting makes this a bad team

Once again you have missed the point. The point is not to find out what players make sense from a fiscal stand point. The point is to ask who is 'untouchable'. While no player is truely untouchable there are some who are close to it than others.

The fact remains is that Ryan Theriot is the petboy of TCR and you have all drank the kool-aid. Some how in the collective demeted TCR group think, Ryan Theriot is the second comming and future hall of famer. In my mind, he's a scappy little player who can contribute but if he decided that he'd rather hang up his cleats and move to Africa to help starving children, we would never notice. If DLee did the same, we would have a gaping hole in this team that could not be easily replaced. See the 2006 Cubs.

Kevin,

Perhaps if he would have used the phrase "we have good personnel" instead of "good team", you would be less angry about his statement?

"lack of clutch hitting "

Careful using that C word. Around here, that's a dirty word. Not with me, though. I believe in things that can't be proven with stats, you know, like clutch, momentum, God. Things like that.

That momentum from the White Sox series sure is paying dividends right now.

I love the God reference too. Such a Crunchonian way to open a debate that has nothing to do with anything

Momentum from the Sox series disappeared as soon Jake Peavy took the hill. The Cubs aren't the only team he's done that too, either.

It kinda left during that two hours and fifteen minutes or so.

"Vince — May 31, 2007 @ 12:56 am
That momentum from the White Sox series sure is paying dividends right now.

I love the God reference too. Such a Crunchonian way to open a debate that has nothing to do with anything "

Momentum comes and goes.

I actually put that God reference in there as a very big point about not being able to prove things with stats yet still believing in them. So many here don't believe in clutch because there are no stats to back it up. Yet, I bet many of these Sabreheads actually do believe in God.

"Momentum comes and goes."

Haha....Classic Chadball

Its so strange. I bet anything that you believe in luck. Luck, of all things, is at the heart of Sabrebmetics. And if you don't believe in luck, you can't really believe in Sabremetrics. But you don't believe in momentum.

Curious here, do you believe in momentum in other sports, like basketball or football?

It's starting to look like the next Iowa Cub to journey to Chicago might be Piggy.

He got his first save last night, primarily because it's the first time they gave him the ball in the last inning. Rapada, who had been the closer (or the lefty partner in a Bailey-Rapada closing act), pitched the eighth yesterday and gave up two runs on two hits and a walk. Rapada's ERA stands at 3.91, while Pignatiello's is at 1.13.

Rapada had been rumored to be awaiting a callup, but this looks like a demotion. Lou loves his loogies--Lou-gies?--and would probably like to have one available in the eighth inning after he's used up Ohman in the seventh.

Sorry, Lou. Pignatiello gets righties out, too.

I meant to add that Piggy is now the Eyre-apparent.

I was at the game last night. What struck me was the lackdaisical play: Lily jogging to cover first. Blanco trotting back to recover a wild pitch on which a Marlin was attempting to score. Bad throws. Swinging at pitches in the dirt - you'd think they had a plane to catch.

Yes, there were a few boos. But nothing like what this team deserves. It's like everyone's given up - players, fans, management. Even the PA announcer sounds bored. OK, Wayne Mesmer still brings it when he sings the National Anthem. But that's about it.

Uncle Lou must be wondering right now just why he ever took the job.

THE PROBLEM IS......they banned beer in the clubhouse after the games, but made no such policy about beer before games. Lilly and the hitters certainly looked like they'd had a few before taking the field last night.

Great article by Greg Couch in the Sun Times today, talking with the Padres GM about how he built he best bullpen in baseball -- to paraphrase:

"Forget lefty/righty. Give me talented guys who can throw strikes. Don't sign middle aged relievers to multi-year deals."

Amen.

Va Phil: Eyre-apparent.

Well played, sir!

Urbs - Blanco trotted back for the ball in disgust because the Marlins runner was already halfway home. Len/Bob remarked that Blanco usually picks those up. Lilly's slow run to cover 1st was boneheaded, but I wouldn't say lazy or lackadaisical. Throwing in the dirt with a fast runner on 3rd was also boneheaded.

I watched until the 3rd inning, but Soriano's leadoff AB gave me a strong feeling we were not going to compete in this one. Swinging like crazy at pitches out of the zone. We need some smart ABs.

BTW Urbs, Hail Caesar, etc., etc.

craptacular

Chad:
"The fact remains is that Ryan Theriot is the petboy of TCR and you have all drank the kool-aid. "

Just like Murton was last year, but that has seemed to cooled, maybe because he is not doing very well or because Theriot is the new flavor of the week.

Urbs:
"I was at the game last night. What struck me was the lackdaisical play: Lily jogging to cover first. Blanco trotting back to recover a wild pitch on which a Marlin was attempting to score. Bad throws. Swinging at pitches in the dirt - you’d think they had a plane to catch."

I thought that was stuff that was going on under the Baker regime, and that Lou's regime was going to change that and make players more responsible? They are 6-14 in their last 20 games, maybe it is time for Lou to bench some players or finally get "fiery".

Actually Manny, I'd take .276/.350 form Murton, if he was slugging even .450....but he isn't.

A .371 slugging pct. will not get the job done. Of course, who the hell knows when he's going to play regularly again? Floyd should be in Left, Soriano in right..at least until Floyd proves he's over the hill.
This, of course, will never happen.

maybe Lou needs to throw a base or two at a player or two. Or maybe he should throw it at Hendry...

Let's be honest. This season, for all practical purposes, is over. Oh, but we are only 6-7 games out of first place! We might as well be 50 games out of first place. There is just little to no sign of life in this team. I just assume now that they will lose every night. So on the few nights they play on WGN, which does not happen much any more, sure, I check in and see how they are doing. Most of the time, I cannot watch until the third or fourth inning. By then, this team is usually out of it. Last night, I thought, hey, I will try and be watching before the first inning is over. So I tuned in about ten minutes after the game started and already they were behind 2-0. By the time it hit 4-0, I said to myself that this game is surely over. I turned back awhile later and it was 9-0. Yep, game still over.

I contrast this team with the Minnesota Twins. Almost all of the Twins' games are on TV where I live. Yesterday, while home for lunch, I saw the Twins fall behind. Last night, after the Cubs game ended in about the fourth or fifth inning, I turned over to watch the taped replay of the Twins game. That is how bad the Cubs season has gotten. Lo and behold, the Twins came back from a 6-0 deficit against the White Sox to win 7-6. The Twins are fun to watch. They have players who hustle. They all do. They bring players up from the minor leagues and the players contribute in meaningful ways the first game action they see. And the Twins do it with a payroll of much less than $100 million.

We have an awful team. And we are stuck with many of these guys for year, gang.

The Cubs will have to go 63-48 to end up with 85 victories.

This is no guarantee of a playoff spot but it should put them in contention for this short bus division.

If this team can not get atleast 80 wins, they should put them and every Cub employee inside Wrigley Field and blow them up.

The Cubs will have to go 63-48 to end up with 85 victories.
----
Kool-aid Kool-aid, tastes great

Kool-aid Kool-aid can't wait

http://www.80stvthemes.com/commercials/indexb...

I'm not saying they will just that's the fact.

It would be miraculous for this team to play even .500 ball the rest of the way. In the late 70s, a Cubs team with this record was no big deal. The team's payroll was quite small. This team makes those late 70s teams seem quite exciting.

At most times, you will have some players who are "hot" and those who are not.

The current problem is that the early "Hot" guys (Theriot, Hill, Marquis, Lilly, Cotts, Wuertz) have cooled, but nobody right now can be considered playing in a hot zone to pick up the slack.

Hendry has to play poker for the next month and a half, and pretend that he likes the guys he has but could have his arm twisted to let some of them go. But if he could accomplish some major housecleaning, here is the roster that I wouldn't mind seeing going forward.

Outfield: Sori, Murton, Pie, Kroeger, Fox

Infield: Aram, Derosa, Theriot, Fontenot, Patterson, Lee

Catcher: Hill, Blanco

Bullpen-wise, I would replace Howry and Eyre with Cherry and Piggy, but the rest of the pen would depend on who I got for Barrett, Jones, Floyd, Howry, etc.

Fox is also a spare catcher and would allow you to put Blanco in for defensive purposes and then remove him for a pinch hitter.

Kroeger is kind of an unknown but he's done more at AA than Francoeur and McCann were doing when they got called up--permanently. Hoffpauir might be an alternate choice.

The Cubs also have to apply some tough love to Soriano. We have him for eight years. He's got to play like we want him to play. (Stop swinging at terrible pitches.) They've started booing him at Wrigley, and that's ominous, because I don't know if the booing ever stops once it starts. People are very reluctant to boo a new player; I don't recall that they ever booed Pierre even though he deserved it early. But people think it's not fair that Soriano gets to play (and get richer) no matter what he does. So he's got to ride the pine, to stop the booing, until he straightens himself out. So far he comes across as an amazing but very screwed-up talent.

Virginia Phil, I like your roster. Barrett is the only player we would get anything decent for. The others would be just middle to no level prospects. That's OK, we need to make changes. I may go a bit further however. I would not have any untouchables and listen to all offers. When the Marlins had their fire sale, they received some very good prospects abd they got through spanking us. If they were in the Central Division they would probably win it. Even the 3 they got from the Cubs for Pierre are all on the roster. When Kim and Mitre shut you out, it's time to blow it up.

Well since you folks think the season is over, that ought to clear the air a little bit around here. You already know the outcome of 2007, so you don't have to come and talk about this team anymore.

We won't have 210 comments a night about how badly this team blows. That'll be nice.

good call wes!

on a different note, how about a-rod's new controversy?

Why is it okay for fielders to trick runners (i.e. pretending they are catching the ball, etc), but not for base runners to trick fielders?

Ryan Dempster is funny...

“We would have just invited you guys to the meeting,” Dempster said. “We talked about (Michael) Barrett’s mom’s cooking. She makes these great casserole dishes. She puts some sort of southern spice in, and it’s really good. And we talked about Jacque’s (Jones’) suit guy, the guy in California he’s got, just a tremendous tailor.”

Hill and Kroeger? Come on. Neither of those guys is a prospect and neither would be able to do any better than the current lot. The only thing I'd do is trade Jones for anything and bring up Pie. But that's going to be hard this early in the season.

Given that they're likely stuck with who they have now, the one thing Piniella can do is stick with a line-up. Guys playing only every other day or so and pressing because of the losing is a recipe for trying to crush the ball everytime up and swinging repeatedly at down and away sliders and sinkers like they've been doing the last few games. Decide between Murton and Floyd in right, play Jones against everyone but really good lefties, leave Theriot at short, and see what happens.

Considering the weakness of the division, all they need is one streak to get back in it. Of course, they haven't shown any sign that this is possible, but letting the hitters try and get in a rythm couldn't hurt.

I would suggest that before we could discuss whether "momentum" or "clutch" exists, that they be defined.

It's a little like "MVP" arguments; define what an "MVP" is or should be, and then an intelligent discussion can occur. Otherwise, people just talk past each other.

Hill and Kroeger? Come on - neither is a prospect, and there is nothing to suggest that either one could hit major league pitching.

If they can't/won't trade Jones of Floyd to make room for Pie, the least Piniella could do is set a line-up. Decide between Floyd and Murton, play Jones against everyone but really good lefties, and put Theriot at short. The weakness of the division means that all is not lost, but it could be in a month or two. Getting the hitters in a daily routine may give them some rythm and help matters.

Wes, I think a person can think that the season is over, for all practical purposes, and still care about the Cubs franchise. I myself have followed the team for more than 30 years. In that time, there have been many seasons when, for all practical purposes, the Cubs were out of it by June 1st. A person can recognize a team in a particular year for what it is and still care about the team.

My guess is that there are more than one or two people here who believe that the Cubs do not have a real shot this year. Does that mean that those folks "know the outcome" already? No, of course not. But being a fan involves a contract of sorts between the team or players and the fans. This team is not upholding its end of the deal. Too many of these millionaires seem absolutely lifeless. Under these circumstances, I think it is understandable that a number of die-hard fans will say this season is already over. On some level, people are very frustrated so comments like those are pretty understandable.

Is it still mathematically possible that they make the playoffs? Sure. But, like I said, too many players on this team just seems lifeless. From all reports, there was no fight, none, zero, in the team that played last night. And that was after the players supposedly had just had a team meeting earlier yesterday to try and set things right.

I agree with the sub-text that if all someone is posting is a comment that the team sucks then, yes, that is a comment that we can all do without. But if a die-hard fan is frustrated and says that the team is out of it in the course of an otherwise thoughtful post, I guess I don't think the person has to clear out of this website.

On the subject of Soriano, I am not surprised that the booing has started. I myself would not boo the guy or any other Cub, unless the player did something really offensive. I think that Soriano is a different case from tJones of last year. But one thing I think would help Soriano would be if he were shown on camera acknowledging that he has not been giving the fans their money's worth and that he is determined to fix the problem, or words to that effect. Yes, many of us can probably assume that this is the way he feels, without hearing him utter those words. But I think a bit of public relations goes a long, long way. Would some folks continue to boo him even after a comment like that one? Probably. But I think it would nip things in the bud a bit and keep the booing from getting out of hand. I sense that Soriano is not necessarily real comfortable with on-camera interviews, and I can appreciate that, but I think there are things he could do to help himself out.

I did not need a post that long to tell me that you are just impatient.

At least wait until they're 10 out to bury them. But you can't do that, because you're just like every other baseball fan who makes kneejerk reactions based on two weeks of baseball in a 28 week season of baseball. If we had won 6 of 7 instead of losing 6 of 7, WE'D BE GOING TO TEH WERLD SEEREZ!!!1!!!11111!!!eleventy ROFLWAFFLE LOLLERSKATES.

Patience is not a virtue for the average baseball fan. Which is too darn bad. It makes it rather insufferable to talk baseball from time to time.

"then an intelligent discussion can occur"

you must be new here

:)

Have the "fun" in losing is bitching about it afterwards. I can't even tell you guys how many laughs I've had at Neifi Perez's expense from some of the classic posts on here. Soriano getting booed? He makes 18 million a year, he's gonna get booed when he sucks just like Arod does. I don't feel sorry for him, he didn't feel bad about signing his check either. I think the Cubs have a good shot at winning the division because it is so bad this year. Who knows? Maybe we can sneak in a hot streak like the Cards did last year.

Vince, you're right ... in fact, there's been nothing intelligent on here since Silent Towel went away.

Wes, I was trying not to respond to your post, because you are entitled to your opinion. However, I did not appreciate your telling me not to come to the website anymore. We are all frustrated and it comes out in different ways. I am not making knee jerk reactions to two weeks of baseball. It should be readily apparent by watching this team all year and the last couple of years in regards to the players that are still here, that this team does not play smart, inspired baseball. I thought that Lou might be able to change this, but sadly he hasn't. Not yet anyway. I still have hope that he change it around, but I am convinced it will not be with these players. Maybe small changes will help, and I would certainly try that first, but I firmly believe more drastic changes are needed. And please don't tell someone not to post just because they don't agree with you. Part of the therapy of this website is sharing with the other sufferers and reading their different views.

I actually was gonna say that I kinda miss ST! lol. Hey Trans, we need another picture of a building blowing up!

Don't believe I said "don't come back". I said you don't have to come. Those are very very clearly different to me. No need to waste your effort if you think this is a last place team. However, it's likely the self-deprecation of a life-long Cubs fan.

And since you "still have hope", I wasn't specifically talking to you in first place, now was I?

Danville Joe
Vince, you’re right … in fact, there’s been nothing intelligent on here since Silent Towel went away.

You're still here. Start enlightening us.

hey, new post up....

let's get off the what it means to be a fan or how to be a fan vibe.
We lose, we bitch. It's our lot in life.

I've figured out the Cubs problem. Dave Wannstedt has morphed into Lou Pinella. I'm telling you folks. Look at Wanny's bumbling, mumbling press conferences after Bear loses in the late 90's and compared them to "cool Lou" bumbling, mumbling rants of today. Its Wanny all over again.

Dusty Baylor:
"Actually Manny, I’d take .276/.350 form Murton, if he was slugging even .450….but he isn’t.

A .371 slugging pct. will not get the job done."

The guy had a good 2 months last year and people were saying how now he is a .900 OPS guy. He is a below average LF.

Wes and Dave-
Yeah. it will give you guys a chance to further bury your heads in the sand, and more Kool-Aid for ya.

wes:
"Don’t believe I said “don’t come back”. I said you don’t have to come."

And if you don't like the way some people give up on the season because they think the team is done, then you don't need to come too, right?

wow...

we have got to stop projecting our major league system based on a quick glance at box scores from AAA/AA boxscores.

hell, lets pretend we dont know jack about cedeno and pretend izturis/theriot is holding back that run scoring machine down in AAA. not like he's 28 years old or soemthing.

its so easy to ignore the guys we know have issues and to dig up the "flavor of the month" guy who most people's knowlege of them involves numbers that mean nothing without context.

the past few weeks, and in this thread especially, there's some names being thrown around that is just...wow.

seriously, go check out last year's AAA numbers and play "find the stud"...not just for iowa, but for all of AAA.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/bl...

notice something?

anything...odd?

notice that over 1/2 the league is hitting .270+?

notice that 7 of these teams have ob% over .340? notice another 2 at .339 ob%? 1 at .338?

maybe, just maybe...the tallent level in AAA is severely different from that of the majors...enough that its not even close enough to call a "better thing" based solely on numbers? maybe...

to rant a little less vaguely...

check out the stats...check out, for instance, the albequerque isotopes stats from that season. the second hottest hitting team behind the stacked arizona team.

its scrub-filled...its got some "elderly" AAA'rs, the same ones who cant quite stick in the bigs...they're seeing the same stuff, same pitching, etc, as the "kids"...

with as sketchy as pitching is in this era, even guys who shouldnt hit pen work are coming up in the majors to spend part-time years on the big club outta the pen outta nothing more than neccessity. even then the pitchers, themselves, are overmatched more often than not.

you see a lot of junk at minor league games all over the place in the minors, especially in the field and on the mound. the good stuff on the mound just rarely sticks aruond long enough while minor leagues commonly carry these "damn, when he gonna get a chance?" hitters who tend to be held back by their lack of D, an inibility to hit exploitable zones that are easily exploited by better pitchers, and whatever the hitter may be working on independant of what others can do to him.

Crunch, if it's easy to hit at AAA, someone should tell Scott Moore.

And Cedeno's a good hitter--as long as the game's not close. That's when he gets a little wobbly in the knees. Lucky for him, Iowa's games are never close. Plus he gets the benefit of the lefty relievers that they bring in to pitch to the six or seven lefty bats on Iowa.

Also, explain why Iowa seems to do so much more hitting than the teams they face. Aren't they also in the PCL? And it's not the strength of Iowa's arms (O'Malley, Walrond).

Wes,

I didn't mean to imply that we give up on the season. Quite the contrary.

Leave it to a Cub fan to assume that bringing up prospects was tantamount to throwing in the towel. Would they make that assumption in Atlanta?

Wes, please just stop reading my posts, okay? No one is forcing you. Look, I am pretty sure your comment about "don't come back" was directed at me among others. We are all adults here or most of are at least 18 I believe. I can figure out that I don't need to come here if I don't want to. You didn't like my long post. Okay, fine. But I was trying to be thoughtful without just taking a shot at you. Your response was to say that I am "just like every other baseball fan who makes kneejerk reactions based on two weeks of baseball." Thanks for the put down. I tried being civil. It did not work. I won't bother you again in the future.

"Crunch, if it’s easy to hit at AAA, someone should tell Scott Moore."

huh?

so what's that say about cedeno? seriously...i cant find logic in that statement. yes, this isnt a 100% yes/no situation.

"And Cedeno’s a good hitter–as long as the game’s not close. That’s when he gets a little wobbly in the knees. Lucky for him, Iowa’s games are never close."

that is the way you choose to explain away cedeno's performance in iowa vs. the pros? not his skills...just the amount of runs against vs. your mental assessment of him?

"Also, explain why Iowa seems to do so much more hitting than the teams they face. Aren’t they also in the PCL? And it’s not the strength of Iowa’s arms (O’Malley, Walrond)."

you wanna explain what pimps on the 06 albequerque point i brought up?

wanna talk about scott seabol or mike kinkade? guess the cubs are really lucky to have a guy who plays 3rd/C who hit .328/.405 avg/ob% in AAA last year.

i guess they did well cuz like cedeno they have a psychological problem with being behind in runs...i need a sortable CAFPBP% stat to figure out who's a crazy as fuck professional baseball player. maybe if mike quade would have taken cedeno out for icecream after the games he wouldnt be such a mess and could focus on playing baseball.

this is all stinks of hocus-pocus rather than looking at tangible aspects of a player's skills.

"You’re still here. Start enlightening us. "

I guess I need to enlighten you about recognizing sarcasm.

Okay, Crunch, you just want to talk Cedeno's numbers, you don't want to hear about his intelligence or his balls (which I think are an issue).

Cedeno's career minor-league BA is .265. His career ML BA is .252. Last year with the Cubs it was .245.

Okay, so subtract 20 BA points from all the numbers at Iowa. Or you pick a number. But obviously there's a correlation. Cedeno's .265 career minor-league BA is a red flag, then, because you don't want a SS who hits .245.

It's a little complicated with Cedeno because his minor-league numbers have been higher recently and he's always been streaky.

Some guys don't make the jump between AAA and the majors but I don't see the point of repeating that over and over since obviously many do, and the ones who do, their numbers were a predictor.

Kinkade is no puzzle at all. A guy who can hit .325 any year in the minors--so, say, .300 in the majors--but can't run and can't field any position except first and third, which are reserved for sluggers. Kinkade is not a slugger: fewer than 100 home runs over ten minor-league seasons.

As for the draft I do not have a problem if we take Vitters over Weiters. Is Weiters better? yes, but from what I have read about them I do not think he is 6 or 7 million dollars better. This team needs guys who can rake at the plate because outside of a few prospects in Iowa or Tennessee nobody else on the farm can hit.

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