Game 124 Thread / Cubs @ Giants (1 of 3)

Game Chat : BR Preview : Press Notes Jason Marquis vs. Tim Lincecum Lineups:
Theriot SS Roberts CF
Jones CF Durham 2B
Lee 1B Winn RF
Ramirez 3B Bonds LF
Floyd LF Klesko 1B
DeRosa RF Molina C
Fontenot 2B Feliz 3B
Kendall C Vizquel SS
Marquis P Lincecum P
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Comments

I hope Andruw kicks some butt in his Cubs debut! But seriously with how big that OF is I would have liked to see Pie in Center, Jacque in Right and Derosa in left. We need our 3 three best outfielders in there. Anyways its been 8 days since he's played and you stick him out there with a guy with stuff like Lincecum. I think I would have used him as a pinch hitter this series and then started him aganist the Diamondbacks who wont be throwing any one as good as any of the Giants starters aganist us.

I'm chiling in the chat watching the Cards game until gametime if anyone is anxious for the game to start.

This lineup actually makes sense! I bet we lose.

Armando Benitez real bad...and dumb, not a good combo

Armando Benitez real bad...and dumb, not a good combo

definately a real good game by marquis tonite,
but cub bats look terrible vs.linsecom,cubs have not
had to many deep counts tonite.
great job marquis, i am thinking 7 innings is enough for him

oh no stevie eyre

It's 1-0, but it feels a lot like 10-0 right now the way this kid is pitching. Please tell me he's scheduled to pitch against Milwaukee.

hopefully sunday

Theriot! Double! Let's see if we can get this done.

Jones! Single! If we don't get a run here we're a disgrace.

Lee! Single! Tie game with nobody out. I love this team.

Wow. That's huge.

a double from ramirez would be great here

yeah

Ramirez! Walk! Bases loaded and nobody out for an emotional Floyd.

yeah cliff

Floyd! Single! And seriously, I'll stop now. Sorry about that. What an inning though. Here's hoping for no let down.

Good to see the bats finally wake up! Mmmmaaaan.

Don't stop Rishi...you might have to do that every game for the rest of the season if it results in innings like this one.

Kendall! Single! Much needed insurance as I'm sure none of us were comfortable with only a 2-run lead. That's for you, Tipsy.

Cyber standing and clapping

5 runs on 23 pitches.

daniel ortmeier has the shortest strikezone box i've ever seen on gameday.

Very nice win

Nice effort by Marquis

Coming from behind late on the road is always nice

That was beautiful! If only those of us who don't get the cable channels could have seen it...

wow....

didn't think the cubs would even get a man on in the 9th the way "the franchise" was looking.....that's a fantastic win, now a good shot in each of the next two.

brewers win.

10 RBI's for Garrett Anderson tonight....

13th player to ever do that, still has a shot to tie or break the record.

Lazzeri with 11 in the AL
Whiten & Bottomley with 12 in the NL

and only through 6 innings

After the Cubs completely wasted opportunities on recently to get a pitcher on the ropes in the first inning only to watch him shut the Cubs down...it's nice to see Marquis return the favor. Quite a game, and big relief considering Cards and brewers won.

Wow on Garrett Anderson:
2 run double in 1st
1 run double in 2nd
3 run homer in 3rd
GS in 6th

13th player to have at least 10 RBI's in a game btw... in case that wasn't clear.

very impressive outing by marquis, bullpen gets to be well rested again, off day monday is looking closer and closer, then we're basically at sep 1st.

zito tomorrow, put a lefty in there to make him change his target back and forth a little.

rock and roll, very exciting game tonight.

Missed end of the game, but heard the post-game show.

I hope we all applauded Cliff loudly after all he's been through lately. Welcome back, big guy.

And um, how about that Dempster? Doing well even in a non-closing situation. I hope the closing committee thing is dead and buried.

Anderson Up.... runners 1st and 3rd

garrett got up with runners on 1st/2nd, 2 outs...

bouncer up the middle, looked like it might get through but the shortstop came across and beat him by a half a step.

well, Anderson missed a chance to break the record, but still a hell of a night...I thought he was going to get 1 more there...oh well.

what a game!

Decided to spluge and buy the IE package although i'll only catch the end of night games, but dammit! i don't care!!!

Bochey is an idiot. after Theriot doubles, probably take him out. After Jones singles, you have to take him out.

My game ball goes to Jason Marquis who could have folded during or after the 1st. but he hung tough and did what he had to do. Great job Jason!

Chad, I think considering SF is out of the race that he wanted the kid to have the chance to win or lose it for himself. But yes, seems like he left him in at least 1 batter too long.

Alex Rodriguez 2 HR's

block, i agree. But when the kid is done, the kid is done. no one was hitting him all night then two straight hits. Bochey owes it to the rest of the national league to do his best to beat the Cubs and he f'ed up.

In case you haven't heard, Cubs and Cardinals are going to make up the rainout game on September 10 in Wrigley.

Which means St.Louis is booked solid in September. Their last day off is Monday, then they play 35 games in 34 days.

Bulldog Update:

Jeffrey Rea 4/4 for Daytona --- and played 2B.

Josh Vitters

0/3 for AZL Cubs while striking out twice

but he did get an RBI on a sacrifice

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats...

Holy shit. 5 run 9th?

Should have stayed up to watch this one, I guess.

cwtp:
then they play 35 games in 34 days

Wow. Hurray for expanded rosters.

One thing that I noticed was that throughout the game the Cubs took a lot of Lincecum's pitches. In the 9th, however, they came out swinging.

The last time they played the D-Backs, their pitchers were coming right after us. In that series, I thought we took way too many pitches. I'd like to see us change our approach against them and be more aggressive.

I'll surmise that the D-Backs have very good advanced scouts. We need to change up our routine and be less predictable.

One thing that I noticed was that throughout the game the Cubs took a lot of Lincecum's pitches. In the 9th, however, they came out swinging.

The last time they played the D-Backs, their pitchers were coming right after us. In that series, I thought we took way too many pitches. I'd like to see us change our approach against them and be more aggressive.

I'll surmise that the D-Backs have very good advanced scouts. We need to change up our routine and be less predictable.

carmenfanzone:
One thing that I noticed was that throughout the game the Cubs took a lot of Lincecum’s pitches. In the 9th, however, they came out swinging.

Really? I thought they were kind of hacky early on. Didn't Lincecum have a 7-pitch first inning? They must have taken some pitches after I quit watching (5th inning).

One thing that I noticed was that throughout the game the Cubs took a lot of Lincecum’s pitches.

What? He only had 72 pitches through 7 and 88 pitches through 8.

You don't throw that small of a number of pitches if the Cubs are taking a lot of pitches. If anything, the Cubs were too aggressive last night, and didn't force Lincecum to throw a lot of pitches.

I’ll surmise that the D-Backs have very good advanced scouts. We need to change up our routine and be less predictable.

Every team has very good advanced scouting.

Every team has very good advanced scouting.

The dusty-era cubs sure didn't. How many times did we get pwn3d by a guy making his major league debut?

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but the hole in Derrek Lee's swing, like the hole in the ozone layer above Antarctica, has been closing. He's been mashing inside pitches since that shot early in the Cards series that got to the wall in left center so quickly he was held to a single.

In case you haven’t heard, Cubs and Cardinals are going to make up the rainout game on September 10 in Wrigley.
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So it appears they will miss Zambrano then...that sucks...

Virginia Phil:
like the hole in the ozone layer above Antarctica

That is just not cool. Leaving my own personal politics aside, this is an antagonizing comment just asking for a big long drawn out political argument where neither side listens or concedes.

Boo.

I thought it was an effective use of a simile.

Leaving aside my own personal politics, of course.

I thought it was an effective use of a simile.

Agreed...

And I am also not sure why the hole in the ozone is an antagonizing or political issue anyway.

"The dusty-era cubs sure didn’t"

Hell they didn't even have a left handed batting practice pitcher.

It's amazing they had bats and mitts.

Caught only the ninth last night and I'm glad I did. Those are games that good teams find a way to win.

Hard to pull a kid who's throwing a 2 hitter in the 9th on 88 pitches (w/o allowing a runner to touch second) when he gives up a leadoff double. After the Jones single to put runners on the corners w/ no outs you almost have to pull him, though.

Wes... then you missed it when the Cubs had the infield in... and it worked! :)

dave, I assume he wasn't running. Please, please tell me he ran anyway and they pegged him at home plate.

dave, I assume he wasn’t running. Please, please tell me he ran anyway and they pegged him at home plate.

No... infield in, ground ball to Fontenot at 2b, and the runner held at third.

Lincecum was great again last night, and once again we stole a game from him. Because his bullpen and offense let him down.

About the cubs taking a lot of pitches or not taking a lot of pitches. I caught the 5th inning on last night. I don't think the approach changed at all. I felt that we were not swinging too early in the count. He was just good. Of his 93 total pitches 69 were strikes, I don't remember a lot of swinging out of the zone.

He is a fast ball and change up. Ramirez had what looked like some terrible swings at a change ups that died by the time they got to the plate.

You can't just go up there and say...hey I'm going to work the count and then the guy throws first pitch strikes every time. I know the cubs have problems walking etc...but from what I saw last night was not the time to rip on it.

"That is just not cool. Leaving my own personal politics aside, this is an antagonizing comment just asking for a big long drawn out political argument where neither side listens or concedes."

Ironically, the comment above could be construed as "antagonizing."

Rynox — August 22, 2007 @ 5:05 am

Wow. Hurray for expanded rosters.

====================

RYNOX: I don't know how you feel about this or if you have an opinion, but I believe if teams have to play with 25 players for the first five months of the season, they should have to do it for the entire regular season.

I would be willing to make an exception for games where both teams involved have been mathematically eliminated from the post-season, or where one team has been mathematically eliminated and the other has clinched a playoff spot, or where both teams have clinched a play-off spot and they are just playing out the string. Only then should teams be allowed to play with an expanded roster.

But in any meaningful game in September where at least one of the teams involved is still battling for a spot in the post-season, both teams should be required to play with their "August 31st" 25-man rosters.

Some great young pitchers lately who mainly throw a fastball and a change: Lincecum, Santana, Hamels.

Which always reminds me that pitchers in the Cub organization don't seem to do well with the changeup. Is this a Larry Rothschild thing?

Ryu had a nice changeup. I can't think of anyone else.

Hill is working on a change. He needs that pitch: his fastball and curve are easy to tell apart. In his last start, I counted three changeups. One was a swinging strike three on Eckstein (only his 17th K on the season).

Good point AZ Phil...why not let those teams have a rover in the outfield as well? haha

It’s amazing they had bats and mitts.

They didn't!

Don't you remember the "Cedeno can't play 2nd because he doesn't have a 2nd baseman's glove" excuse?

I went back in Gameday and counted in Rich's start, Va Phil, and Rich threw 11 change-ups in 115 pitches.

4 of them were first pitches and 3 were strikes.

Eckstein was the only batter he struck out in four chances when he threw one with two strikes.

And I will answer you the same way that I answered you the last time you asked this question. If you want somebody to throw a change-up, then draft him or sign him.

The Cubs rotation is two power pitchers (fastball, slider, sink) and three lefties with above average curveballs. Hendry loves power arms with average to well-above average sliders in the bullpen (Demp, Howry, Marmol, Eyre, Wuertz) That isn't Rothschild's fault.

3/4 that he threw on the first pitch were strikes.. didn't count the total number of strikes.

Sorry, Wes, I don't remember hearing you say that before. It's an interesting point--that pitchers develop changups early--and I would have remembered it.

I based my count of three Hill changeups on the mlb.com replay of the game. I assume that Gameday gives you their interpretation of what pitch was thrown? I don't know much about Gameday.

I'm not a glutton for punishment. When Hill is going well, I just enjoy watching his pitches. Maybe a changeup is in the eye of the beholder. I was looking for pitches in the low 80's that didn't break to the right at all. Some of those 15 pitches, I may have interpreted as sliders.

Anyway, I'm glad Hill is working on some alternate pitches. You can get away with two, but only when they're tough to tell apart.

It's not that they develop them early, more than you know pretty early whether or not it's going to work well for you or not. Can you or can't you mimick your fastball mechanics but see a dramatic dropoff in your velocity? Can you locate it all? (maybe the hardest part)

You mention Hamels, Santana and Lincecum as guys who succeed with change-ups, but that's because they are VERY VERY good changeups. The kind of the change-up that you still have a hard time hitting when you know it's coming. Lincecum throws 96 and changes you up at 82-83. Hill throws 90-91 and changes you up at 82-83. That's why Timmy is so much more effective. Same with Santana and Lincecum. It looks exactly like a fastball mechanically and tempo-wise, but it's 10+ mph slower. Hill's change is still at the point that it only works because it changes a hitter's timing. Hill can't really lean on it and throw it 20+ times a game because then guys are going to be looking for it.

I reworked that data on Rich's start vs. the Cards because I wasn't exactly sure the #'s were right. Here's what I came up with:

1st inning v. Ludwick ball on 1-1 count

2nd inning v. Encarnacion F7 on 1-1

3rd inning v. Molina ball on 1-0 count
3rd inning v. Eckstein 1st pitch swinging strike
3rd inning v. Eckstein ball on 1-1 count
3rd inning v. Ludwick 1st pitch swinging strike

4th inning v. Encarnacion 1st pitch popup

5th inning v. Molina ball on 1-1 count
5th inning v. Ryan 1st pitch ball

6th inning v. Eckstein K on a 2-2 count
6th inning v. Pujols foul on 6th pitch (next pitch was a fastball for a HR)
6th inning v. Encarnacion 1st pitch ball

7th inning v. Edmonds 1st pitch strike

13 pitches, 7 strikes. Threw w/ 2 stikes twice, one K one foul.

Hill's been throwing a changeup since the beginning of the year, not a very good one, but it's been there, along with a cutter (some may think it's a slider). He seemed to get away from the change when Barrett left although he only threw it about 10 times a game as is.

I don't know many pitchers who would introduce a new pitch in the middle of the season. They'd work on it over the winter and spring training. And well Hill's been working on the cutter and change for years now.

http://cubs.scout.com/2/365422.html
Here's him talking about his change in 2005

I'm also told Gameday works because Wrigley has Questec.

It tracks not only the velocity, but also the break of the pitch, which allows me to differentiate between a 79 mph curve and an 80-82 mph change because of the difference in break. Even a hanging curve has some turn to it.

http://cubs.scout.com/2/449061.html

Hill talking about working on his change after the 2005 season

Rob and Wes,

I'm sure Hill has been working on a changeup for a while, and that many pitchers on the farm have been tinkering with it. Wood and Prior were both rumored to have changeups, although they never did much with them. I can't think of a Cub pitcher who has come along who actually featured the pitch--with the exception of Ryu.

It seems striking to me, since there are all these other fastball-changeup guys around chasing Cy Young awards.

I'm old enough to remember when the change was a distant third (or fourth) behind curves/sliders in importance. In the last couple decades there has been a trend away from breaking pitches and toward the change.

I'm just wondering if Larry Rothschild got the memo.

It's not Larry's fault that this is the roster he's given. This is the staff he has. You can't take Sean Gallagher aside and say, "hey dude, develop a great change-up."

yea... i wonder why the cubs starting rotation can't all be cy young candidates too.

damn rosthschild.

I would have thought you could take a 21-year-old pitcher aside and tell him to work on his changeup.

The question is, who coordinates minor-league pitching coaches. I'm assuming it's Rothschild, but I guess it's probably not. Who's the guy, and what is his philosophy?

I wonder if Hendry was wondering last night, why none of his #1 Draft Picks make it to the major leagues or any of his Top 3 round picks.

I would have thought you could take a 21-year-old pitcher aside and tell him to work on his changeup.

But the thing is, there's nothing saying that you take said pitcher aside and tell him to work on his change-up and it actually becomes you know, good. Good change-ups are just as hard to throw as they are to hit.

If it was just as simple as telling the kid to go throw one, then everybody would throw a Santana change-up. It takes talent. And a lot of guys (particularly drop-and-drive fastball/slider guys) are running short on talent when it comes to change-ups.

for the record, i taught myself how to throw both at 4 seam and a 2 seam fastball, a curveball and a slider. I actaully throw two different curves. All of them suck.

What curves do you throw, Chad?

i throw a terrible big hook but a not so terrible 12 to sixer over the top. the tom gordon big hook mostly just hangs there. the 12 to sixer isn't too bad.

Solid. Better than me. I couldn't ever get a 12-6 to turn over enough. Always hung it. Everytime.

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