TCR Friday Notes

It be rather slow when it comes to all things Cubs related these days but we've got a few things planned for next week for your enjoyment. In the meantime, notes start walking: - Cubs.com has a new offer for an online fan club. Your twenty bucks gets you this:
Cubs Club members will receive benefits unavailable to other fans, including your very own 2007 Membership Card, MLB.com's Gameday Audio for the 2007 regular season, exclusive ticket offers, access to the home postgame press conference video archives, the ability to view Wrigley Field 24/7 through our interactive web cameras, and access to our exclusive editorial content and blog provided by the staff of Vine Line.
It seems to be just worth the Gameday Audio that usually goes for $14.95 I believe. UPDATE: As always, read the fine print or well just read it thoroughly. It's not such a great offer since the Gameday Audio expires at the end of 2007 and there's about 5-12 games left on the year that matter. You can read the full membership benefits here. - Tickets go on sale November 7th for the Cubs Convention which will be from January 18th-20th. - The same article says the Cubs organizational meetings will be the last week of October. - On the sale front, the FCC is trying to make it easier for Sam Zell to buy the Tribune and sell the Cubs by trying to loosen restrictions on a company owning both newspaper, radio and TV outlets in the same market. - As a Cub fan, you'd be hard not to notice the parallels between Josh Beckett's Game 5 performance last night and the gem he threw in 2003 against us in the exact same situation. I suppose it's inevitable now that he'll come out for Game 7 in relief to shut the door against the Indians and take the Red Sox to the World Series. While I've remained mostly disinterested in the playoffs since the Cubs demise, I've taken a passing interest in the Red Sox/Indians series only because their just two really good teams playing really good baseball and I do enjoy a good baseball game. The series has also affirmed my belief that the five-game series needs to be abolished. If this was the ALDS, the Red Sox would be home by now, instead they take Game 5 and now have Mr. Playoff on the mound at home with a chance to force a game seven. - I also take a bit of solace by my postseason predictions. While my picks reeked of homerism, if I had gone the detached route, I probably would have still picked the Cubs in the first round but most definitely taken the Rockies in the second round. - It's time for a quick guessing game, who do you think wrote this?
Let's start with A-Rod, which obviously is the less complicated proposition. It's a matter only of money, and you can be sure White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf's already done the math and pondered whether A-Rod's worth $300 million over 10 years as he becomes baseball's home run king. That money would come back to the Sox five-fold in ticket sales, TV money, team marketing, jerseys brought, and -- best of all -- winning. Naturally, Reinsdorf also gets to stick it to the Cubs, who can watch Aramis Ramirez turn doubles off the wall into singles for the next five years while A-Rod hustles toward recognition as perhaps the best player in baseball history. So Reinsdorf has plenty of motivation to make it happen.
Give it a moment, who recently bashed Aramis and said the Cubs should pursue A-rod? And the answer of course is Barry Rozner. I only bring this up because I came across the blurb at Fox Sports and it attributed the clipping just to the Daily Herald and I immediately thought that it must be Barry Rozner. - The big news this week was of course Dusty Baker reemerging as Reds manager. I mostly could care less although Dusty is always good for a cheap joke. I will say that I'm thrilled to have the Dusty-isms back though:
Reds manager Dusty Baker views both the pitching coach and hitting coach jobs as essential. "My hitting coach is like my offensive coordinator," he said. "My pitching coach is like my defensive coordinator. I rely on those guys."
I think the quote got cut off myself...I believe it was "I rely on those guys to take the blame when things aren't working". As I said, always good for a cheap joke. Enjoy the weekend folks....
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Comments

I don't know much about Kuroda but here's a Rotoworld blurb on him.

With a quality fastball that tops out around 95 mph, he should be able to make it in the majors. However, he doesn't have the strikeout breaking ball to be a big difference maker. The Mariners and Cubs are known to be interested in him.

and Trey Hillman will be the Royals manager.

speaking of that FCC deal...

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/business/busin...

A decision to approve fewer restrictions would be a win for real estate mogul Sam Zell, whose bid to buy Tribune Co. hinges on gaining approval for Tribune to continue to own both television stations and newspapers in various metropolitan areas.

Tribune currently operates both broadcast and newspaper properties under a waiver from existing FCC rules.

and at the moment, they're not too keen on giving another waiver to Zell hence the new proposal.

Sure, Reinsdorf will go get A-Rod. Then we'll all fly down to the South Side using our jetpacks and watch the Chicago White-Sox win 150 games next year.

Seriously...does Rozner even read what he writes anymore?

“My hitting coach is like my offensive coordinator,” he said. “My pitching coach is like my defensive coordinator. I rely on those guys.”

Two word apply here:

Dick
Pole

"As a Cub fan, you’d be hard not to notice the parallels between Josh Beckett’s Game 5 performance last night and the gem he threw in 2003 against us in the exact same situation."

Or me last night. But thanks for the shout out. Biter.

Why would I want GameDay audio for the 2007 games?

Their offer sez nothing about 2008 games.

Did you see Manny Ramirez turn a double (or more) into a single by doing his "It's All About Me" routine?

I brought this same topic up once about Aramis, and except for someone else (Wes or Dave, as I dimly recall), you'd have thought I accused A-Ram of child abuse.

McCarver and Buck went off on him, and rightly so, in my view. Like I said earlier, sooooooomeday, it's going to cost the Cubs a ballgame.

I just find it unnecessary. You want to do cartwheels and backflips around the bases after it clears the wall, knock yourself out. Whatever. But there's no reason not to leave the box on the dead run. Ever.

*It’s a matter only of money, and you can be sure White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf’s already done the math and pondered whether A-Rod’s worth $300 million over 10 years as he becomes baseball’s home run king. *

Hmmm, didn't the Sox win a World Series a couple years ago. Correct me if I'm wrong but was the joint sold out every game the next season?

If not, yeah, sure, A-Rod will pack 'em in. So this article would simply be propaganda? Whatever gets A-Rod in a Cubs uniform is fine with me.

And no, I'm not paying 20 bucks to see "24/7 webcam shots of Wrigley". What possible "exclusive offers" to tickets could they possibly offer? First crack at the scalpers? Pass.

*Did you see Manny Ramirez turn a double (or more) into a single by doing his “It’s All About Me” routine?*

Somewhat related--isn't the rule everywhere else in the world that if a ball hits the painted line on the fence it's a home run and not in play? Why have the stupid line there at all if that is not the case?

The only people who care about Aram's hustle (or lack thereof) are hack journalists and bitchy fans. Get over it.

Why would I want GameDay audio for the 2007 games?

That's a good question, I guess I glanced over that, I just assumed it was for next year.

So nevermind, stupid idea.

isn’t the rule everywhere else in the world that if a ball hits the painted line on the fence it’s a home run
======
the yellow line is fair territory, the ball has to touch above/behind it to be a HR.

...riddle me this: if a fly ball hits the foul pole, it's a HR. So why isn't it called the fair pole.

i still dont see how the yanks cant afford to extend arod's deal....its not like he's gonna see any (if much more) $$ than he's already due through his original contract and extending arod 2-3-whatever years will still give the yanks nice "coupon" to save on that extension.

...cant afford to NOT extend arod's deal...

Saw somewhere on line that Clevenger will be going to the Arizona Fall League.

http://www.northsidebaseball.com/Forum/viewto...

No supporting link but a mention of Clevenger to AFL as a catcher

Could have been me, Danville Joe.

Those little things really piss me off. Turning XBH into singles by staring at it and being unable to bunt when you're supposed to are the two biggest pet peeves I have about baseball players.

I don't think Aramis is near as bad as Manny, though. That would drive me insane.

Manny can stare at his hits for the Cubs all day on my team.

although I'm still amazed neither has been drilled in the ear for their staring.

danville... yea - it was also me.

i have no major problem with watching obvious home runs. i do have problems watching balls that are not out of the park, and in turn turning doubles into singles.

with that said, like rob already said, both a-ram and man-ram can turn doubles into singles for my team. i don't like it, but i would take either of them over most other options. except a-rod. i would take a-rod over a-ram. or man-ram. hell - a-rod could play left a helluva' lot better than man-ram.

Hendry Q&A with this little nugget... l

Trade-wise, we tried to make a trade or two that would've been as significant or more last year than probably any of our free agent signings except [Alfonso] Soriano, and sometimes they don't work out. The other team isn't obligated to trade you their better players.

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...

and....

I believe our payroll will go up [in 2008]. I don't know how much. If it stayed the same or close to the same, I wouldn't complain about it.

also says Soto has a "great chance" to be catcher on Opening Day...

and pimps Wilken and Fleita while taking a subtle shot at Stockstill.

Thank you Rob G, thank you:

Cubs, who can watch Aramis Ramirez turn doubles off the wall into singles for the next five years

I don't mind taking it easy to prevent injuries when Neifi Perez is your backup. Taking it easy because you're a dumb fuck who doesn't understand the concept of 'over the wall', however, gets on my nerves.

Still, Arod isn't worth $30 million, or probably even $25 million to the Cubs at 3rd. Shorstop or bust.

My post season predictions are Phillies beat the Cubs for NL pennant and lose to the Red Sox (who trounced the Injuns) in the World Series....which is one of the many reasons I don't bet on sports.

Oh crap, I forgot the reason I was going to bless you all with my omni.... omni knows everything, I forget the term.

Torre: Yankees' contract was 'an insult'

"The 67-year-old Torre turned down a $5 million, one-year contract "

That, sports fans, is $1.5 million higher than the highest paid manager in the game.

"New York's offer included $3 million in bonuses if the Yankees reached next year's World Series — $1 million for each round reached — and an $8 million option for 2009 that would have become guaranteed if New York won the AL pennant."

What a pompus ass. Yankees fans aren't the sharpest tacks in the carpet, but if they bitch about Torre leaving it would be like saying Rivera should get $18 million a year with the performance bonuses that can kick it up to $24 million. We've known for a while that the Yankees organization was totally detached from reality. I guess it rubbed off on Torre. Is the Pirates job still available? Maybe he can take a 80% paycut for that one.

"Cubs, who can watch Aramis Ramirez turn doubles off the wall into singles for the next five years"

what...2-3 of them...maybe 5?

yeah, no excuse for it except that weird baseball ego-pride crap that no manager on this planet seems to be able to rein in...still, its such a minor part of his 'game'.

weird how it just keeps on happening, but it seems here to stay no matter how much bitching commentators have done over the years. no players seem to want to call others out for doing it and the pitchers who are insulted by it seem to get into these 'bigger than the play' multi-game beanball wars that end up hurting the teams involved even more than the initial incident.

pride vs. ego vs. working with what you got in a new era of baseball...wee.

Earth to crunch.

Just because 10% of the players in MLB don't respect the game, it doesn't make it OK.

Earth to Chad,

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...

never said it was okay.

said it was. we cant deny it is...and its not just 1 or 2 managers letting it happen. its become an institutionalized activity. in the case of manny, it even comes with its own prepackaged catchphrase "manny being manny".

no amount of outrage is making it stop...yet.

The first homer I ever hit over a fence was when I was about 27 years old playing in a men's league. We didn't have a fence in little league and I never hit one in high school, so I'd never had a chance to watch one. In any event, the first one I hit was a walkoff grand slam (though in fairness, it was a walkoff that put us up 12 and so the game was over by mercy rule). I ran hard until I realized it was out, and then I kinda kept running hard because when you're as chubby as I am, it's hard to slow down.

So in any event, that was game 1 of a double-header and in game 2, I cranked one to right field with about a 20 mph helping wind, and I was sure (what, with all my experience hitting homers) that this one was gone too. So I stood and watched, mostly just for yucks. It hit the very top of the fence and I got thrown out at second base by about 5 steps. I still don't know how it stayed in, but alas, I never watched any more homers (though I did wave one fair on my way to first base once).

slamdog — October 19, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
Saw somewhere on line that Clevenger will be going to the Arizona Fall League.

==========================

SLAM DOG: Steve Clevenger is indeed now a member of the Mesa Solar Sox.

Clev spent a month with the Cubs AZ Instructional League team that ended play last Saturday, and now he will be replacing Astros #1 catching prospect J. R. Towles, who was hit by a pitch and suffered an AFL season-ending hand or arm injury a couple or three days ago.

About Steve Clevenger...

He was drafted by the Cubs in the 7th round of the 2006 June draft out of Chipola JC in Florida, where he played SS. He had been at SE Louisiana and the University of Texas before that, but had academic problems, leading him to transfer to a JC.

He started catching only about a year ago, but he has really taken to the position (23% CS, 4 PB, and 1 E in his first season as a catcher). He spent April and May at EXST at Fitch Park learning some of the finer points of the position from Cubs minor league roving catching instructor Casey Kopitzke, and then was assigned to Boise in June before getting jumped to Daytona in July. I know for a fact that the young Cubs pitchers really like him a lot.

Although he also plays 1B and 2B, he will probably be the #1 catcher at AA Tennessee in 2008. He has a really high "Baseball IQ," and will probably be a manager someday. He is a slow runner and doesn't have much power (yet), but he is a left-handed hitter with a smooth line-drive stroke and is EXTREMELY tough to strikeout (only 11 K in 270 PA between Boise and Daytona in 2007). I would project him a future MLB back-up C-1B-LHPH or perhaps the left-handed hitting half of a catching platoon.

Neal? Was there a specific part of that interview you wanted me to read?

I think Neal's on the sauce tonight fwiw...not sure what he meant either.

"He will probably be a manager someday."

or the next jason kendall. hehe...

AZ Phil -

Have you been catching any of the AFL games lately? I'm itching for updates on our prospects.

JF

JF — October 19, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
AZ Phil -

Have you been catching any of the AFL games lately? I’m itching for updates on our prospects.

JF

======================

JF: Yes, but since the box scores, game log, and game recaps are available on-line, I haven't been writing reports on the games (except the first home game).

I will be writing a mid-season AFL report (limited to Cubs players only) at the end of the month and then a post-season AFL report in mid-November.

Where is the best place to see the box scores on-line and who is making a name for themselves so far?

I think what was particularly awful about ManRam's raising his arms and standing to admire his homerun in game four was that his team was way down when he hit it.

It's like the football player who poses and dances after a touchdown in the fourth quarter with his team down by thirty-five points. You're part of a team that is getting its ass kicked. There is nothing to celebrate.

JF — October 19, 2007 @ 5:03 pm
Where is the best place to see the box scores on-line and who is making a name for themselves so far?

=========================

JF: For AFL info, try this link at mlb.com.

From there, you can go to the AFL scoreboard, stats, game notes, etc.

Sam Fuld (323/462/645) has been probably the best all-around player in the AFL (so far), and he continues to lead or is tied for the league lead in walks, runs scored, and triples, is tied for 2nd in hits, is 3rd in stolen bases, 5th in HR and OBP, is 6th in OPS, is tied for 7th in doubles, is 10th in SLG and is tied for 10th in RBI (while hitting lead-off), and he has reached base in all nine Solar Sox games in which he has played. He has also made at least three outstanding catches that I saw, and I haven't even seen every game.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/19/commentary/sp...

story on how signing Arod would make financial sense for many teams, particularly the Yankees.

I disagree about the notion that it would help the Marlins because no one would still go watch.

what to do with fuld...perfect, top 4th OF'r...as a regular, nothing impressive going on besides tools that would make him a great 4th OF'r.

shame that even reaching for doubles-power isnt something that's easily obtainable.

Az-

Great information...thanks. I'm glad to see your boy, Fuld is making a name for himself. Do you envision him starting the year at AAA but being the first man called up in the event of injury (or Pie not being able to produce)?

fuld pretty much has to royally screw up to not be a lefty bench option for the pro club at this point, fwiw.

sans-power...he can field all 3 OF slots and is a left handed bat with a touch of speed. pinch run, late inning D sub, and a decent lefty pinch-hit option when you dont need D.Ward to smack the ball.

of course if murton, pie, and jones are still all around (in addition to soriano) things could get a little logjammed and cause fuld to be AAA bound...or pie...

JF — October 19, 2007 @ 5:37 pm
Az-

Great information…thanks. I’m glad to see your boy, Fuld is making a name for himself. Do you envision him starting the year at AAA but being the first man called up in the event of injury (or Pie not being able to produce)?

==========================

JF: I think Sam Fuld will have a good shot at making the Cubs 2008 Opening Day roster as the 4th OF. He's kind of in the same position right now that Ryan Theriot was in a year ago, meaning if Jacque Jones is traded and/or Felix Pie struggles and is sent to AAA (Pie has one minor league option left), Fuld is a "survivor," and if Piniella keeps an open mind about him, he could end up playing CF for the Cubs in 2008. Not forever, probably, but for a while.

Or he could get included in a trade.

There are probably a few MLB clubs for whom Fuld could play CF and hit lead-off in 2008 (FLA, HOU, PIT, STL, and WAS, plus BAL if Corey Patterson walks, SD if Mike Cameron walks, MIN if Torii Hunter walks, and ATL if Andruw Jones walks),

There is something completely undervalued about a gritty leadoff hitter that can play amazing D for the league minimum.........Theriot and Fuld both are the types of players that this team needs to offset the boom/bust and lack of situational hitting that Aram and Sori provide. BOTH are necessary for success!

theriot's performance as a singles-hitting slap hitter i still dont get how its so impressive. hell, he dont even walk that much...he's more prone to taking pitches as a tool than walks as a tool when it comes to taking a value out of what he does. its not like he's taking pitches so he can punish something nice...even when he is hitting its pretty unremarkable on whole.

yes, he does a few things well, but he's so damn ordinary when he does the rest.

yes, he's better than other options the club had, but not by much...not much worth talking about anyway, imo.

even at his best he's still just kinda there.

Theriot's SCRP, HRT and HSTLE numbers are off the charts though.

He's a damn good basestealer, I'll say that, of course so was Juan Pierre.

Pierre in 2006: 292/330/388 58/78 on SB's
Theriot in 2007: 266/326/346 28/32 on SB's

I'll take Theriot's glove over Pierre's though.

fwiw, Theriot did bat 300/342/420 in the leadoff spot.

"I’ll take Theriot’s glove over Pierre’s though."

I'm not trying to split hairs here Rob, but the problem with Pierre was his arm not glove.

oh, i dont think theriot is a negative...i just dont think there's anything special about him at all.

and yeah, his SB/CS% has been extremely impressive.

even though he's not the fastest guy out there he definitely knows when he should/shouldnt go.

theriot is a guy who reminds me of a zillion middle IF types ive seen before and aside from the sb/cs% he's not bringing much more to the table. he's like a mix between tony graffanino bat with tony womack's bat and head for sb (too bad he dont have the legs, too).

I’m not trying to split hairs here Rob, but the problem with Pierre was his arm not glove.

Yea... agree with Chad. I am not sure that Theriot's D is better than Pierre's D. Pierre had great range, but an awful arm. Theriot has decent range, and a decent arm.

And of course... Theriot is A LOT cheaper than Pierre.

Torre a pompous ass?

Hey, Real Neal. I'm going to cut your salary by 29% for you to do the same job. Also, I'll let you do it for only one more year because you've already pissed me off enough.

Whaddya say? Do we got a deal?

AZ Phil,

I've noticed from the AFL box scores that in almost every instance the Cubs pitchers are used as a group (Gallagher, Roquet, Atkins, Berg) and Mesa wins most of the time when they pitch. Was this a conscious decision by the manager to use the Cubs pitchers in the same games all the time?

AZ Phil, do you know anything about RHP Jose Tineo (age 16, Dominican Republic)? BA listed him along with Hernan Ramos (who you've mentioned) as two major Cub signings in Latin America.

Wes - where do I sign! If 29% pay cut means 5 million/year base salary I will take the 5 million and smile all the way to the bank. I don't know about you but very few of us will ever earn $5 million in our lifetime let alone one year.

I have a question, who in the hell will pay Joe Torre that much other than the Yankees? No one.

Althought he hasn't been doing it so much lately, one of Chad's favorite copouts to an argument has been 'well all these GM's agree with me so I am right and you all are stupid'.

Now you have GM's at different ends of the statistics and scouting spectrums - Beane and Hendry, both on record saying that there is no such thing as Chadball, and that the playoffs are a crapshoot.

Hence the earth to Chad remark. It wasn't that obtuse.

Hey Wes,

Your job is to win the world series. You have a team with a payroll that is 50% higher than your nearest competitor, and generally 200% higher than your playoff competition. You haven't won a world series in 7 YEARS, and you think that you should keep your job, and not take a paycut, unless you DO your job and win the World Series in which case you get a raise? Yes, you are a pompus ass.

You must work in the public sector to have that sort of mentality, Wes.

I do nothing of the sort, sir. Thanks for the assumption, though. Thanks for being as offensive as ever, buddy! Good to see you haven't lost your touch, hot shot.

If that's the case, then they should cut every manager's pay who hasn't been to the World Series in that long. Nobody's cutting any other manager's pay for the same shit. If you don't want to pay Torre 7, then don't sign him to that contract in the first place. If you do sign him to that contract in the first place, and then don't want to pay him, then fire him. Don't yank him around for three weeks before deciding to make some offer that was a shell of the offer he had in the first place. Of course, that does come AFTER you already said to the entire world you were going to fire his ass.

Nobody made him take the deal. He wasn't forced. If they're going to cut his pay to put up with the same shit from Steinbrenner, there's absolutely no reason to stay. There is no reason he should put up with the exact same bullshit from Steinbrenner threatening his job once a week for 30% less money.

And everybody talks about $5 million dollars. I'd still be pissed if I made $1,000,000 in salary and they cut it to $700,000. It's the concept. I don't know a single person who would stay in the same job for a 30% pay cut. It's ridiculous. Wouldn't you quit YOUR job if your boss wanted to re-up you for 30% less? He's got enough money to live the rest of his life. He doesn't have to manage another day if he doesn't want to. Why should he take the pay cut? The man's got pride, which he's done a fine job of swallowing since he took that job in the first place.

Rory & Neal -
Wes is right on the Torre comments. He managed a tough media & clubhouse situation and helped the team win the WS multiple times. Don't blame Cashman/Stein for signning such loser pitchers as Pavano, Wright, Igawa, Clemens, etc - thhat's probably 20% of the payroll every year - inured pitchers.
The bottom line is you can't compare MLB Manager to Office Manager when it comes to payroll, bonuses, job security and so on. Different worlds altogether.

Also from Hendry interview Rob linked to earlier...

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=chc

...Carrie Muskat would like all of us fans to stop offering up those stupid trade ideas. Her job is hard enough!

Navin — October 19, 2007 @ 10:35 pm
AZ Phil, do you know anything about RHP Jose Tineo (age 16, Dominican Republic)? BA listed him along with Hernan Ramos (who you’ve mentioned) as two major Cub signings in Latin America.

============================

NAVIN I haven't heard anthing about Jose Tineo (yet) And if he's only 16, I won't be seeing him at Fitch Park until 2009.

And Venezuelan RHP Hernan Ramos was a NDFA out of Ellsworth CC in Iowa, so he wasn't exactly what I would call an "international signing," although apparently BA considered him to be one.

George Altman — October 19, 2007 @ 8:11 pm
AZ Phil,

I’ve noticed from the AFL box scores that in almost every instance the Cubs pitchers are used as a group (Gallagher, Roquet, Atkins, Berg) and Mesa wins most of the time when they pitch. Was this a conscious decision by the manager to use the Cubs pitchers in the same games all the time?

==========================

GEORGE A: It's just a coincidence. Justin Berg has already been "separated" from the others, and it's probably just a matter of time before the others are split-up, too, although if and when it happens, it won't be done on purpose.

Yeah I'm with Wes, why'll most of us can't fathom the difference between $5 million and $7 million and passing up a chance to work in baseball everyday, it's the principle of knocking your pay, not the amounts.

So Real Neal is bagging on Chad for knocking the playoffs are crap shoot theory and then gets on Torre for not winning a World Series. Intriguing....

why’ll most of us

Is that Celtic for "while" ?

I think the Tigers are a perfect example of how the extra innings thrown in the post season can take its toll on a young pitching staff. I'm not sticking up for our old friend Dusty, but as we've seen, it takes more than the 4 month off season for alot of young pitchers to recover...

I think managing the Cubs is harder than managing the Yankees. No team in any professional sport has as much pressure as the Cubs to get the monkey off their back. I think Lou was amzed at how every single move was analyzed by the Chicago media...

In regard to Theriot and other young players: more time than not it takes a few years to fully develop at the major league level. I don't think Theriot for instance was prepared for the day to day intensity. He looked tired by the end of the year. Nor was he ready for the pressure of the post season. I think he'll be able to improve his on base percentage by playing more, probably steal more bases as he learns the pitchers, and probably position himself better in the field as he learns the hitters. I'd keep him.

We still need a #5 hitter. Ideally that plays rightfield and ideally hits lefthanded.

Fitting that profile: Luke Scott. What would it take to obtain him? Marshall? Marshall + Fontenot? Would they trade with us?

Another option: Hank Blalock? Could he be moved to rightfield? Will his power numbers return?

it was early, hadn't had my caffeine injection yet...

Honestly... I doubt Torre was as upset about the 5 million dollars as he was the one year contract.

Sure - the 30% pay cut is pretty ridiculous.

But what is more of a slap in the face is the one year contract, so that Torre will be dealing with the exact same damn thing next year.

I don't think that Torre is the best manager in baseball and in turn worth significantly more than any other manager in baseball. But I also don't think that he should stick around with a 30% pay cut in order to be a lame duck. Again.

I'm really amazed by the number of people who are saying $5 million can't be insulting because its more than what others make as an argument.

Torre has said he know if he goes and manages somewhere else he's probably going to make less money.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't be insulted in a similar situation, I don't care how much you make. If you had a boss who did nothing but bitch about your job performance and threatened to fire you on a regular basis, including right before you were scheduled to go into contract negotiations, then made you sit around for 2 weeks to decide if he actually allowed you to come back to work, and then said, ok, you can come back, but only if you take a pay cut, and only for one year. Oh, and at the end of that year, you'll be back in this same place where you'll have to squirm for a while before you know if you'll have a job again.

I should also mention in this situation, its being made very clear that the paycut is only because the boss wants to punish you, not because the company needs to spend the money elsewhere or really can't afford it in the budget.

Would anyone ever not be insulted by that situation? And would anyone ever accept that offer if they didn't absolutely have to?

Torre is doing exactly what anyone with any self respect would do, he told the boss to find someone else. Torre knows full well that if he wants to manage again, he can have his choice of jobs, and while he'll certainly make less than what the Yankees offered, he'll be able to go somewhere where he's actually wanted.

And that's exactly what anyone with any self respect, anyone who has any value of pride and satisfaction beyond money, would do.

Torre said in his press conference that pretty much all of it was insulting from the paycut to the incentives to the one year deal.

"I haven’t heard anthing about Jose Tineo (yet) And if he’s only 16, I won’t be seeing him at Fitch Park until 2009."

is it still against the rules to bring an "employee" less than 18 years of age to "work" at the US camps?

i know the dodgers used to skirt those rules while not bringing the talent into the game, itself, or on a roster.

"So Real Neal is bagging on Chad for knocking the playoffs are crap shoot theory and then gets on Torre for not winning a World Series. Intriguing…."

Unless of course you put it into perspective. It doen't make a difference what the likelyhood of success in the post season is, Joe Torre's getting paid $5 million/ year to win it. Are there factors that are out of his contol? Certainly. Did he know that when he took the job? Yes. His job is to win the world series. He hasn't done it in seven years, although he has an easier path to doing it than most of his peers. If I failed to meet my bosses expectaions for one year, I would get a bad review. For two years, I would be fired. For 7 years? And then complain publically that I was insulted when they offered me job for an 8th? That's detatchment from reality.

Maybe I am wrong, may you guys all have jobs where not meeting your empoyer's expectaions is acceptable, and can empahthize with is outrage. I can't imagine what they would be. Torre should have been fired after '04.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sport...

someone brave enough to defend Dusty...

"Ted Williams failed to hit .300 for the only time in his career in 1959 when he played most the season with a pinched nerve in his neck and finished at .254. Refusing to believe he was washed up at age 41, he decided to play one more season but insisted on taking a 30 percent pay cut from $125,000 to $90,000."

Joe Torre?

"His job is to win the world series."

you cant hire a person on the planet who can guarentee a victory in any fair matchup of a short series.

not only does torre not swing a bat (anymore) or pitch...the short series is a place where david eckstein can be a MVP and the least likely team to win in a matchup can win.

this is a game where a 35% success rate of getting on base will get you props whereas a 30% success rate wont let you play at all unless you got power or you play a position of defensive scarcity.

there is no interview or process to find a person who can guarantee a postseason...not even for a 200-220m team.

all in all, a team that spends so much money theyre barely worth watching from a competition standpoint (seriously, i dunno how yanks fans can actually watch a 200m team stomp on 40-100m teams 95% of the season) gives an offer to a manager making him the highest paid in the game and he walked away from it.

the pay cut...the short length...which was more insulting to him? *shrug*

only thing i know for sure is the yanks barely wanted him and didnt wanna commit to more than a year and torre has more important things in his life than money.

btw...if anyone saw ESPN's baseball tonite last night you'd think torre had died or something.

nearly the entire hour was devoted to torre's history, torre's yankees legacy, interviews with friends/players/etc, interviews with current teammates and working with him...

yeah...ESPN...3 teams (NYY/NYM/BOS) and a Bonds.

The Real Neal: No, everyone has to hit employer's expectations. But this situation is just not the same. What if your employer put you in charge of 25 employees and said that each major company in your field would be scored on how many total days of work the employees missed during the year. Only if you head the company with the fewest days missed would you be retained. If not, you would be fired for failing to meet their expectations - which is to have the fewest missed days in the industry. You do a good job, you don't overwork your workers, make sure they enjoy the workplace, make them all feel like they are working toward a common goal. Workers come in even when feeling under the weather to take one for the team. Yet in the end, 2 or 3 other companies have phenomenally healthy years and narrowly edge you out. You've done a great job, the team likes you, and as a consequence of good work attendance, production is way up and so is the company's profit. You were right there at the end, but came up short. In fact, perhaps it's not so much that you failed but that your boss gave you some crappy employees that dragged down your score. You also fell victim to some unbelievable scores by other companies. The industry and those who follow it widely see you as one of the best motivators and managers of workers of all time. But you are told to take a huge pay-cut, take it or leave it.

Perhaps a stupid story, but when you try to bring competitive team sports into the normal workplace, it's just not as simply as "did you do your job this year."

Don't look now, but C-Pat had a line of .310/.344/.451 in 157 PAs (out of 503 PA total) vs lefthanders(?!) -- in 2007. Had only 11 (17%) of his total 65 Ks vs lefties also. In essence, ~31% of his PAs were vs lefties but only 17% of his Ks were. Also, that's a pretty good drop in K rate from past years.

Don't know if it means he's starting to figure something out or not -- his other numbers are a mixed bag, though not as horrible as his last year with the Cubs. Haven't seen him play (TV or in person) just looking at his #s, so I have no idea what it means for him. I'd like him to make it 'cause he had such wonderful talent. Hate to see gifts like that wasted.

re:Morrissey's attempt to defend Cubs previous manager Abe Turdsky

Morrissey writes, "Never mind that the Cubs spent gobs of money on players for Piniella," as if the Cubs didn't spend gobs of money on players for Turdsky.

payroll* 2003: $ 79,868,333
payroll* 2004: $ 90,560,000

WISCGRAD;

That's fine one or two or three years. Seven? And now quantify it with saying that my company spends 50 to 100% more on it's 25 guys than anyone else?

And if the industry 'see you as one of the best motivators and managers of workers of all time' I won't have any problem landing on my feet for another $5 million a year job right?

So either Torre was overpaid or he didn't do his job. He doesn't get paid twice of what every other manager does to do anything but winning the World Series. Is it a fair expectation? No. Should he get paid 10 X the salary of the guy who does the same job in Kansas City? No. Should he bitch about only getting paid 7 times that other guy? No.

"“His job is to win the world series.”

you cant hire a person on the planet who can guarentee a victory in any fair matchup of a short series."

How did he get such a great reputation and get the high salary... by winning World Series. What is he not doing now, Winning Wolrd series. Argue about it until your blue in the face, but Stienbrenner didn't give him that huge contract to wach 4 playoff games a year. His job is to win the world series, and he's not doing it.

Carmen,

I thought the same thing to myself a few weeks ago and then I checked out his stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/scottlu01...

I doubt Hendry finds the guy to fill that hole until 7/31. I wouldnt mind a Marshall for Teahan swap. You let Teahan see if he can hold down RF and if he cant you make a trade and keep him on the bench as a LHPH who can play all the corners.

and I was at least as good a manager as Jim Essian

So what it really comes down to Neal, is that you think that Torre should have been fired, so its irrelevant how the Yankees behaved.

If the Yankees didn't think that Torre was the best person for the job or thought he was incapable of what he had done in the past, then they should have simply said so and told him they wanted to go with someone else. Instead they chose to put a chicken shit offer on the table, that no one with any self respect would take.

So Ted Williams didn't have any self respect?
That's a good one.

My argument is that the reason he is overpaid is because he won all those WS titles. He is no longer winning WS titles, so he should no longer be overpaid. The contract they offered him, would have paid him more if he won the WS. How is that a slap in the face?

Joe, we paid you 3 times the industry average because you showed an ability to win WS titles namely four in five (or six?) years. We want to keep you around, but we have to bring your pay into alignment with your peers. If you do win the WS, you will still get paid over twice as much as anyone else. What do you think?

"YOU WANT ME TO BE THE HIGEST PAID MANAGER IN THE GAME? WHAT A BUNCH OF HORSESHIT, I DON'T NEED THIS, I AM OUT OF HERE!" PHIL GARNER WAS IN THE WS THREE YEARS AGO, AND HE GOT FIRED. GIVE ME $6 MILLION YOU CHEAP SKATES.

Ok Neal, so I'm guessing you've totally missed the point that its not about the money.

No, I understand the point, but it's not correct.

Taken in a vacuum: There is no other manager in the world, there is no other job in the world, and if you assume that he had been doing everything asked for him, and doesn't deserve to be fired, then sure it's a slap in the face.

Taken in the real world: He's: 1. Vastly Overpaid. 2. Not meeting his boss's expectations. 3. He's actually offered a raise if he meet's his bosses expectations. It's not a slap in the face, it's a good offer, better than he will recieve anywhere else, still denotes him as one of the premier managers of the game.

If it was about the money, then Torre would have accepted the offer, because he knows very well that no other team will pay him that much to manage.

It also clearly wasn't about the money to the Yankees. Despite your statements acting like the Yankees just wanted to bring his contract in line with other managers, where's the evidence that the Yankees, who spend more on MLBs luxury tax than several teams spend on payroll, want to bring anyone's salary in line with anything. If the Yankees had any interest in keeping Torre, keeping his salary constant would have had almost no impact on the team's bottom line.

If you were considered one of the best in your field, and you'd keep working for a boss who threatened to fire you on a regular basis, who spent 2 weeks deciding if you were even worth of being brought back, and eventually decided to cut your pay as punishment, and you'd still continue working for him, even though you could go anyplace else you wanted to work and still live very comfortably, then you clearly don't get that sometimes work is about more than money.

Neal,

As the coach of my High School Baseball team once said, "You can not win with reject talent" and for the last 4 or 5 years that has bascally been what the end of their rotation and set-up men have been. By making Torre take the pay cut there making him the scape goat for the horrific 7 year WS drought they have been in and its not his fault. Also if your an employer and you really want to keep an employee, do you offer them a pay cut? Steinbrenner's spawns wanted to let him go and they dont have the oldman's balls so they they offered him a deal that he'd so no to.

wonder how different the whole thing would be if he got 3/15m with incentives or something...

offering a manager a 1 year deal is sketchy enough, even if its the highest paying 1 year deal out there.

torre bitched across the board about everything, but didnt pin it down to what pissed him off the most...the money/structure or the years to do his job.

btw...the point about patterson from #75...wow.

also kinda amazing patterson hit 7 of his 8 HR's july-sept (1 july HR before the A/S break).

the braves will have a lot of fun with him. =p

You guys realize that people take pay cuts and demotions every day and stay on in the same organization. Ever heard of Ed Lynch?

where’s the evidence that the Yankees, who spend more on MLBs luxury tax than several teams spend on payroll, want to bring anyone’s salary in line with anything.

Well, Torre, they're taking a hard line on Arod at this point, and haven't re-signed Posada or Rivera yet, so there's your evidence.

By making Torre take the pay cut there making him the scape goat for the horrific 7 year WS drought they have been in and its not his fault.

Agreed. When Torre had far and away the best talent he won the world series. When he didn't have far and away the best talent, his teams become playoff also-rans. You can't argue the point both ways, either Torre won the WS, and he is no longer doing that so he's not worth $5 million in salary, or he didn't them, in which case he's not worth $5 million in salary.

He won four out of 6 WS's, and he got the huge contract BASED ON THAT. Not based on getting to the playoffs, not based on witty reparte with the media, based on winning the WS. He is no longer winning WS, so he doesn't deserve the huge contract. Why is that concept so difficult for you and Torre to grasp?

I am not arguing that the playoffs, to a large part are a crap shoot. What I am arguing is that when he got his huge contract, he did it based on the fact that the playoffs are NOT A CRAPSHOOT. If you have JOE TORRE as your manager, YOU WIN THE WORLD SERIES. Guess what? h His argument was wrong. So he doesn't get the out-of-line contract. Plus he's 68 years old, what would be a good contract for him, 10 years? He's three years past retirement age, and every year he's likely to retire anyway.

Now if the Yankees pay Joe Girardi or Mattingly or Tony Pena $5 million a year, I will eat my words. But as an organization they've come to the realization that most people have had since the first Marlins WS title. The playoffs are a crapshoot. A monkey can manage the Yankees to the post season. There's not much demand for $5 million monkeys.

And if it was only about the money, you might have a point, but you've ignored every other reason, other than the money, why this offer was extremely insulting to anyone who has anything resembling pride.

You've also ignored that Torre himself has recognized that he probably won't make $5 million if he goes elsewhere to manage.

Not to mention, that if this was a legitimate cost cutting move and they really wanted to bring Torre back, why was this only a one year offer? And don't give me that "10 year," he could retire anyway strawman, because multi-year deals are the norm for managers, and clearly based on Torre's statements he was not yet ready to retire and is at least thinking of managing elsewhere in the future.

I also didn't mention that if you're making a legitimate offer, the first offer is never a take it or leave it offer, as this one was.

The Yankees gave every bit of evidence that they didn't want Torre around, but instead of just manning up and cutting ties, they gave a bogus offer that they knew he wouldn't accept. That's a pretty crappy way to treat any employee of 12 years.

If you only want to look at this in a vacuum where the only thing that matters is how much Torre made in relation to other managers, then sure, it was a fair deal. But then you've missed the million other reasons why no person with an ounce of self respect would accept the "offer" put in front of Torre.

Torre's performance this season getting those underwhelming louts to tear it up into the postseason was masterful. What everyone is missing here is that Torre is an excellent, consistent manger. The villain here is The Boss. I remember reading about him meddling in Cashman's decisions back around 2004 after the loss to the Marlins in the WS if I'm not mistaken.

I hope the best for Joe Torre. He's a real mentsch and put up well with a well paying but enormously stressful work environment for years. The Yankees should be ashamed of themselves for treating him like an interchangeable part.

And by "tear it up into the postseason" I mean "tear it up to get into the postseason" of course.

As I said, I hate the 5 game series.

Game 7 tomorrow, Dice-K vs Westbrook.

I heard that Mark Redman was starting.

WHIPPLE: If you're gonna use Yiddish phrases, please know there ain't no "t" in "mensch".

thanks!

Real Neal --

Shades of gray and understanding the other guy's point of view aren't for you, no sirree!!

well if Kerry Wood hits a homer tomorrow for Cleveland it'll be really spooky.

All I learned from the Yankess-Torre psychobabble drama is that premiere managers are just as paranoid and unassurable as premeier players ... too scared of their own abilities or lack thereof to take short-term contracts, even for ridiculous amounts of money.

No Wrigley's it was about pride, it had nothing to do with money.

And the 10 year contract isn't a strawmen argument, they are guaranteed contracts.

Highest paid manager in the game: $3.5 million. $10.5 total value.

Torre's offer: $5 million one year deal with bonuses of $1 million for each playoff round reached. If he reached the WS (doesn't even have to win it), he get's renewed for 2009 at $8 million.

So, his total package is worth $5 million for one year, with the possiblity of being worth $16 million for two, if his team can win 7 playoff games. Even the one year package is comprable to what Pinhead is getting. If the Yankees make the WS he gets paid more than twice as much as the second highest paid manager, for two years.

Do you think if they gave him a 3 year, $20 million non-guaranteed deal he would have taken it? I bet not. He's a spolied prima-donna and again, he has a track record of teams not getting it done in the playoffs. The reality of the situation is that he was overpaid, AND he didn't live up to the expectations of his employers. If they didn't offer him a contract, he would call it an insult. When they gave him one that is way out of line in today's market, he calls in an insult. Who cares? He sucked it up and now he's gone, ala Dusty Baker in Chicago. Dusty, at least didn't call a press conferrenc and bash the Cubs when he got let go.

Sorry, but the Torre/Dusty situations aren't comparable.

What the Cubs did was tell Dusty he wasn't wanted anymore. They didn't spend the entire 06 season threatening to fire him, and then take 2 weeks deciding if they would bring him back, and then "offer" him a one year contract with a 2 million dollar pay cut, with no room for negotiation.

Even as badly as I wanted Dusty gone, even Dusty wouldn't have deserved that shoddy of treatment, and I hope even Dusty would have had the self-respect to tell the Cubs to shove it in the same situation.

Its really remarkable that you can't see that there is a big difference between just firing someone (refusing to renew a contract for those who like to get hyper-technical) and throwing out a low ball offer that you know the other person won't accept to make a pathetic effort in the media to say "see we tried".

Real Neal, I'm curious. Is turning down the contract what makes it prima donna-ish or calling it an insult?

'Cause turning it down...well, that's just his right. I don't see why he owes it to anybody to keep working.

well if Kerry Wood hits a homer tomorrow for Cleveland it’ll be really spooky.
=========
If Josh Beckett comes in to relieve Dice-K, it will be even spookier.

Paul Byrd (Indians pitcher ALCS game 4) accused of significant/multiple purchases of HGH from 2002-5. From the same Florida lab that was recently disclosed.

Phil Rogers (Sunday Tribune) "rambles on"...

… Sam Fuld, the outfielder who caught Cubs manager Lou Piniella's eye in September, is off to a fast start in the Arizona Fall League (.323, two homers, five stolen bases, 10 runs scored in nine games). He and Tyler Colvin could play themselves into spots as big-league contributors as early as the second half of next season

… Andy MacPhail's restructuring of the Orioles' front office has led him to consider guys on both sides of Chicago for jobs. There are rumors of him pursuing Oneri Fleita, the Cubs' farm director; Alan Regier, the White Sox's farm director, and Bill Harford, a longtime scout for the Cubs who previously has served as farm director.

3/44

Bleeding Blue,

Got any, you know, evidence to backup up your claims that the Yankees spent all of 2007 threatening to fire Torre? Didn't the Hendry say he was going to evaluate the staff during the ASB in 2006? What would you call that? Dusty knew he was a lameduck manager for the last 100 games in 2006, but did he quit, or attack Hendry and the Tribune? No. He finished his contract and moved on. Like a grown-up.

Facts. They're a bitch.

So now, offering Tore a contract making him by far the highest paid manger in the game, is more insulting than not offering him a contract at all. Very interesting.

Let's see. I've given you an example of one of the all-time famous egos in the game, demanding a pay cut, after under-performing for a single season.

An example of a a GM being demoted and still staying on with the organization.

An example of a manager being treated just as shabbily, and not being offered any contract at all, without flipping out.

There's a way you behave, and there's a way not to, and Torre with his little tirade, showed that he has an over-inflated perception of his value, and has detached himself from the realities of market conditions and his own failures.

djchi,

It was probably answering the questions at the press conferrence. If he had just said 'They made me an offer, which I didn't think was fair or appropriate, so I have decided to move on", he would have come off, in my mind, to be much more professional. He should have also walked in there expecting a pay cut.

crunch — October 20, 2007 @ 12:00 pm

is it still against the rules to bring an “employee” less than 18 years of age to “work” at the US camps?

i know the dodgers used to skirt those rules while not bringing the talent into the game, itself, or on a roster.

==========================

CRUNCH: I don't know about other MLB clubs, but there are no 16-year olds at the Cubs Fitch Park camp each season, although there are quite a few 17-year olds.

As I recall, a player has to turn 17 prior to March 1st to get a slot at the Cubs minor league ST camp and EXST, but I don't know if that is a federal labor law or MLB rule or just a Cubs organizational rule.

16-year old Latin players play for the DSL Cubs or the VSL Cubs/Twins until they are 17, and then they might (or might not) get their ticket punched to Fitch Park.

And then there are MLB International (MLBI) academies in Europe and Australia for European and Australian players age 16-18 (including players who are free-agents as well as those who have already signed with an MLB club).

So far, the Cubs have signed one Australian (17-year old RHP Ryan Searle last February) and two Europeans (20-year old Italian RHP Alessandro Maestri in January 2006 and 17-year old 2B Dwayne Kemp this past August).

Searle was at Cubs ST (minor league camp) and EXST at Fitch Park March through May 2007, but had to return to Australia on May 31st because his work visa was only good for three months. After returning to Australia, Searle spent this past summer (which is Australia's winter) at MLBI's Australian Baseball Academy. Searle will return to the U. S. next March and will be able to remain in the U. S. for the entire baseball season.

MLBI Austalian Baseball Academy catching instructor Brent Phelan (who played JC ball in the U. S. at Indian Hills CC in Iowa) and ABA pitching coach Larry Home also work for the Cubs as special assignment scouts under Cubs Pacific Rim Scouting Director Steve Wilson.

In addition to signing Searle, Wilson--who is based in Taiwan (his wife is Taiwanese)--has also signed two players from Taiwan (Team Chinese Taipei 21-year old RHP Hung-Wen Chen, and 22-year old OF Chih-Hsiang Wen out of Taipei Physical Education University) and one from Korea (18-year old RHP Dae-Eun Rhee) over the past six months, with Chen getting a $200K bonus, and Rhee getting an $800K bonus.

Wilson also signed 23-year old Korean RHP Simon Lee prior to the 2007 season, and Korean OF Hae-Seong Kook at the end of the '07 season.

As for the European players, after signing with the Cubs, Maestri pitched for Team Italy in the WBC in 2006, and then for the Cubs Boise club in 2006, and for Peoria this past season. He will likely be a member of the Daytona Cubs bullpen in 2008.

Kemp is a 17-year old from Aruba, although he attended MLBI's European Baseball Academy in Italy this past summer under the sponsorship of the Netherlands Baseball Federation (Koninklijke Nederlandse Baseball en Softball Bond).

MLBI also established a Chinese Baseball Academy on mainland China this past summer, and is heavily promoting baseball there from little league up through high school and college.

Several players from Team China (which is managed by former Cubs manager Jim Lefebvre, with Bruce Hurst as the team's pitching coach) were assigned to MLB EXST teams this past April in preparation for the 2008 Olympics in Beijing.

Outfielder Qi Ze and catcher Hao Guo-chen were the two Chinese players assigned to the Cubs EXST team at Fitch Park, and both look like decent pro prospects.

Hao is a solid defender with a plus-arrm and a nice line-drive stroke, while the left-handed hitting Qi is a patient hitter with plus-power and a good base-runner with above-average speed, with a bonafide RF arm.

Qi is VERY raw, though (he sometimes looked totally confused trying to catch fly balls and he swings and misses a lot), but he clearly has the potential to be a fine power-hitting corner OF.

I would think if and when China allows their better players to play pro ball in the U. S., that the Cubs will attempt to sign a couple (possibly Hao and Qi).

Eman:WHIPPLE: If you’re gonna use Yiddish phrases, please know there ain’t no “t” in “mensch”.

Not to argue but actually Yiddish is written using the Hebrew alphabet and despite YIVO's attempts to standardize spelling and transliteration, there's no agreement in actual contemporary usage by non-academics.

Proper spelling would be mem-ayin-nun-tes-shin (מענטש). The word has been accepted by some dictionaries as American English with the spelling you give to it, but it's still an appropriate alternate spelling to include the "t". A true transliteration would more accurately include a "t" as that's the way it's actually pronounced in Yiddish (due to the presence of the tes).

As with most everything on TCR, if you're going to be arrogant and pedantic, you'd better know what you're talking about. Go Chad-ball!

Mister Whipple --

If I recall correctly, he was a petty, hyper-critical minor authority figure who preached one thing ("Ladies, PLEASE don't squeeze the Charmin") but did the opposite. Interesting.

BTW, you don't need to remind me about Mr. Pepitone. I was young at the time & didn't understand what a flake he truly was.

damn...thnx phil.

I had no ill-intent, and no, the academic translation you cite is not generally accepted by any dictionary I have seen, nor Yiddish directory. And you ARE arguing.

Perhaps this may be your attempt at pulling something from Israeli archives, which may be accurate there, but I have never seen mensch spelled with a "t" in it, in the U.S.(or in the U.K. where I have spent some time) I am 50 years old, and spoke hebrew for a mere three years, so let's just say use the "t" - its a free country - and I think you know where the toilet paper is, WHIPPLE. Your interpretation is very obscure, and not widely accepted. Go Internet!

Got any, you know, evidence to backup up your claims that the Yankees spent all of 2007 threatening to fire Torre?

Seriously, you need me to find you evidence of this? I can think of several times during the season and post season where George came out and said in the media that Torre could be fired if the Yankees didn't win the next game or series. I'm not going cite specific examples because anyone who listed to any national sports media during the course of the year would have heard it repeatedly and at time constantly.

And yes, there are plenty of times where simply being asked to leave shows far more respect than offering a contract that clearly is not going to be acceptable.

Again, you can't get beyond the money. If you're a prostitute and the only thing that matters in your job is the money, and you'll put up with anything if you're given the right amount of money, then you won't understand why the "offer" is an insult. If you have some pride or self respect, there is no way in hell you take the non-negotiable offer put on table by the Yankees.

where else can you find discussion of proper transliteration of yiddish, hiring practices for 16 year old athletes, parallel universe events in the baseball playoffs, the insult of a one year $5M contract offer and an occasional Ed Lynch reference.

cook county mental asylum.

E-Man, the Yiddish I deal in is the living language still spoken by millions today, not the academic language pulled from archives.

I didn't cite any "academic translation" or pull anything from anywhere besides my own personal experience. My point was that there is no standard. Even using Hebrew letters there have never been standardized spelling rules as so much of Yiddish pronunciation is altered by region (e.g. choilem-oi, cholem-o, kometz-aw, kumetz-oo, etc.) and that the lexicon changes from region to region.

My point was simply that it's a transliteration--there may be variances in how it's transliterated. That you're an alter cocker who spent years in Israel doesn't seem all that relevant to this now well-flogged discussion.

Go Jews!

"alter cocker"

actually an alter cocker is any member of the Cocker family that is no Joe.

Oh by the way, after Ted Williams took his $ 30,000 paycut for the 1960 season, Williams hit 316 with 29 home runs in 310 plate appearances and hit a home run in his last at bat which concluded his career as the greatest hitter to ever live (including Bonds). He hit 521 home runs, despite missing five yrs of his career during his prime, serving in WW II and the Korean War. Just tremendous!!!

why celebrate a dumb decision by a player to give people rich enough to own/run a team more money to keep for themselves?

it's either b/s (so much of the media presentation of players from babe ruth to reggie jackson was a load of hyped up crap and nonsense) or williams forgot about the decade+ of service he gave to the RSox getting underpaid.

...this is the era before free agency and owners paying players whatever they feel like and could get away with in the public sphere we're working with here, too...

pulling out my copy of "my turn at bat" it seems williams approached the GM at a trade/industry show and confronted him about the standoff-ish nature of the rsox brass.

what follows is basically the points raised above.

if that's how it went down i dont see a reason to celebrate it as anything but stupid since the whole thing revolved around personal pride, not improvement/investment in the club as a tradeoff. still, its his money and his call.

nice story, but the results don't make for a better team...just a story about a man's character.

"alter cocker"

Translation for those not fluent in Yiddish:

...Old Fart

Seriously, you need me to find you evidence of this?

Yes, I am saying you have made this up. Proove otherwise, it can't be that hard.

I did find this one though:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18399578/wid/7279...

Facts, they're a bitch.

Wow, you provide "facts" that Torre's job wasn't threatened by giving George's statement of support issued on a Monday.

Never mind the whole reason that he had to issue a statement of support is because it was widely reported that if Torre didn't win on Sunday (which he did) then he would likely be fired.

I suppose you'll also ignore the George's statements during the playoffs saying that Torre's job depended upon how his team did versus the Indians.

but yeah, Torre was never threatened with being fired during the course of the year, I'm just making that all up....

But again, if you don't understand the whole concept that you can be given an offer that is far more insulting than just being fired, you will never get it.

BTW Neal, Have you ever dumped a girl who you didn't want to date anymore by offering to continue getting together for sex, but ending all other aspects of the relationship? Something tells me that any girl with an ounce of self respect would rather just be dumped than get an offer like that.

But since getting any offer, even one that no self respecting person would accept, is better than just ending things, I guess you'd just call the girl a selfish premadonna for being insulted by your offer.

Bleeding Blue --

Spelling Nazi strikes: "prima donna" --

Italian for "first lady." the female star of an opera; a diva:
a vain and temperamental person
a distinguished female operatic singer; a female operatic star
(I can provide sources if anyone actually cares...)

Bleeding Blue,

That link I provided was from May, not after the season.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7359966

62 year old manager, 2 WS titles umpteen playoff teams, gets a 2 year contract offer and accepts it!

Amazing!

For the reading challenged:

Updated: 8:11 p.m. ET May 1, 2007

“I believe in (Brian Cashman, Joe Torre and the Yankees player)," Yankees owner George Steinbrenner said in a statement Monday. "I am here to support them in any way to help them accomplish this turnaround. It is time to put excuses and talk away.”

Torre said. “You don’t want to think about it. ... The fact that George did what he did, hopefully it will make us have baseball be the center of attention.”

Think it's time to admit, that you're wrong now.

Yes, Neal, I know that the link you provided was from May. It was issued on May 1, a monday, after widespread reports that if the Yankees lost to the Red Sox on Sunday, Torre would be fired.

The Yankees won on Sunday, and only then did George issue the statement you keep refering to as this almight proof that Torre's job was never in jeapordy this season.

Nevermind I already said all of this, and you're calling ME reading challenged.

And nice of you to compare LaRussa, who was given a multi-year deal, was not given a paycut - even though his team perfomed under 500 last year - and he was given assurances that the new GM would be willing to work with him. That's a pretty big difference from being given a one year, salary reduced, take it or leave it offer.

If LaRussa was offered a one year deal and told, that he would have no impact on the hiring of a new GM, and take a paycut for good measure, and there would be no room for negotiations in this offer, then you could make the comparison. However, the situations show the exact difference between good faith negotiations, and making an insulting offer to someone you really have no intention of bringing back.

But since its only about the money to you, and you can't understand the concept of how a non-negotiable offer could be insulting for reasons beyond the money, then you will never get it.

Um, Bleeding Blue, didn't the Yankees season end on a Sunday, after Stienbrenner had threatened to fire Torre if they didn't win the divisional series? You realize there are generally 52 Sundays in a year. And still you're unable to provide any proof that management was threatening to fire Torre throughout the season. You do realize that tabloids and sports talk radio is not management, right? No, actuall you don't realize that.

What you don't get, and I am repeating myself is that these are guaranteed contracts. If the Yankees had offered Torre a lifetime contract for a total value of $5 million, would he have taken it? Why not?

Please don't reply without showing one shred of evidence of:

I can think of several times during the season and post season where George came out and said in the media that Torre could be fired if the Yankees didn’t win the next game or series.

Other than the widely publicized comments by George during the Playoffs.

You're right in my initial comment I didn't explicitly say that the words "May," because I read the dateline on the article you cited, and then explained the backstory behind it. I figured since I was directly referencing the YOUR article, I didn't need to explicitly say I was talking about Monday, May 1. Clearly I overestimated your abilities.For whatever reason, you've somehow made the assumption that I was talking about the last day of the season or the playoffs, which was not the case.

If you don't believe that Steinbrenners statements on Monday, May 1 are a direct results of the widely reported news that Torre would be fired if the Yankees didn't win on Sunday, April 30, then you've clearly got your head in the sand.

Regardless of what you want to believe about the whole threats of firing throughout the year, even if the only "threat" you want to believe happened is the one that took place is the one that you acknowledge took place in the playoffs, that threat alone is enough to demonstraight that the Yankees didn't really want Torre back, and every other point about why this offer was insulting still stands. Stop pulling a "MannyTrillo" by trying distract from an overall argument by focusing on a tiny little, nearly irrelevant piece as if it is major point of the matter. Even if the only threat on Torre's job came during the playoffs, and I'm not saying that is the case but if that were true, it still wouldn't change the overall elements of why this offer was insulting.

As far as your $5 million for lifetime contract, assuming you are talking about $5 million a year, I don't know if Torre would have accepted. I do know that if that was the offer it would drastically change the discussion, it would not in and of itself be an "insulting" offer. But that's not what was put on the table, its not even close to the reality of the situation, which was for one year, take it or leave it.

Bleeing Blue,

I don't mind the arguing, but if I have to be your editor, you should probably start paying me:

"I figured since I was directly referencing the YOUR article, I didn’t need to explicitly "

You initial lie is in post 112. Whereas I tried to do your research for you in post 122. 122 comes AFTER 112. I don't know if that is a reading, logic, or space-time continuum issue you're dealing with, but try to sort it out.
________________________________
As far as your $5 million for lifetime contract, assuming you are talking about $5 million a year, I don’t know if Torre would have accepted
______________________________________
No, I am talking about $5 million total, for as long as he manages. So $300K this year, $300K next year and the balance after he retires etc. Would Torre have accepted that? All he was really concerned about is job security, correct?

Now read this link:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers...

It will probably go down best with a glass of warm milk and big slice of humble pie.

"every other point about why this offer was insulting still stands"

Sorry, but a contract that pays a manager who has one one of his last 8 post season series 70% more than the 2nd highest paid manager in the game, with the possibility to make it 230% as much with a second year is not insulting... unless you're losing touch with reality, which you (112 - 122 is a good example of that) and Torre clearly are doing.

In post 123 I was referencing YOUR article that YOU referenced in 122. I don't know why you can't figure our the "space-continuum" of something that simple. Its not fucking rocket science, and I'm not the one who is talking about the number of monday's in a season as you did in post 129. I was ONLY talking about one monday in MAY, the SAME MONDAY in which the comments you linked to in post 122 were made. Why you are having so much trouble with that concept is beyond me.

All he was really concerned about is job security, correct?

Find me where I said the ONLY thing Torre was concerned about was job security? Stop breaking down the elements to find a crack and look at the big picture. It was the cut in pay PLUS the one year contract in a business where at least 2 year deals are the norm PLUS the threats of firing (even if you only want to include the ones at the end of this and last season) PLUS and this is a BIG PLUS the fact that the contract put before Torre was a Non-Negotiable, Take it or Leave it offer.

All of those things go to show that the Yankees had no real interest in bringing Torre back, and created a situation where no person with any self-respect would accept that offer.

BTW, I'm amused with the articles you keep using as your 'smoking guns'. You find a columnist who agrees with you, because "they wouldn't make a $5 million dollar offer if they didn't mean it." Again, making it only about the money.

Of course that collumnist actually got the real point in the line earlier, "So they (the yankees) had to know the reaction to a firing would have been five million times worse for them."

I'll also note that in the same article you are referencing (in post 132, not some of the other millions of articles that are in cyberspace, the very article you referenced) that the author acknowledge that Torre had been 'receptive' to a $4.6 million dollar one year extension prior to the 07 season. That does a pretty good job of showing that it was not the pay cut alone that caused Torre to leave.

But again, its only about the money to you. You clearly don't have enough pride, or even enough understanding of the concept of pride to realise that you can recieve an offer that is far more insulting that just being told that its time to move on.

[...] TCR Friday NotesBaseball - Or he could get included in a trade. There are probably a few MLB clubs for whom Fuld could play CF and hit lead-off in 2008 (FLA, HOU, PIT, STL, and WAS, plus BAL if Corey Patterson walks, SD if Mike Cameron walks, MIN if Torii Hunter walks, and ATL [...]

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