Pitcher’s Duel

GAME 130 IN-GAME DISCUSSION THREAD [PARACHAT] FLORIDA MARLINS (69-60) @ CHICAGO CUBS (61-68) WRIGLEY FIELD, 1:20 pm CDT, TV: Fox Sports Florida, WGN
Carlos Zambrano, RHP
10-5, 3.03 ERA
159/69 K/BB, 13 HR in 172.1 IP
Josh Beckett, RHP
12-7, 3.45 ERA
128/45 K/BB, 10 HR in 140.2 IP
CF *Juan Pierre CF Jerry Hairston Jr.
LF Jeff Conine 2B Todd Walker
3B Miguel Cabrera 1B Derrek Lee
1B *Carlos Delgado RF *Jeromy Burnitz
RF Juan Encarnacion 3B Nomar Garciaparra
SS Damon Easley LF Todd Hollandsworth
2B #Luis Castillo SS Ronny Cedeno
C Matt Treanor C Henry Blanco
P Josh Beckett P #Carlos Zambrano
Go Cubs!!
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Comments

Nice to see Carlos Zambrano have an uneventful first inning.

Lee 200th career HR....Congrats!!!

What took them so long?

The Boston Red Sox DFA'd Remlinger and his ERA of 14.14.

There's gotta be some way to stop Z from trying to field shots with his bare hand.

When will Zambrano stop bare handing balls up the middle. He better hope he doesn't break his hand one of these times. It just cost him a shot at a no hitter.

Oops. Actually Remmy posted a 14.85 ERA for Boston.
14.14 for the month of August.

I have 6 bleachers for this Wednesday game vs the LA Dodgers. I will sell them for face ($28). If anyone wants some, please email me ASAP. Thanks!!

By the way...that is one reason that Castillo should win a gold glove and not Grudz! Even though Burnitz was safe at second.

"cedeno is neifi jr."

How many times have we been forced to read this garbage, perhaps the least informed opinion ever posted on TCR.

Anyone who saw Cedeno's battling AB in the sixth inning today KNOWS that cedeno ain't no neifi jr!!

Cedeno has earned his pinstripes.

"cedeno is neifi jr."

garbage?

what in the hell are you seeing then?

tell me what cedeno is doing that neifi dont?

is it the constant hacking and contact? is it the defense? is it the low K/low BB?

if you dont think theyre similar i'd like to know what player you think he's familiar to.

go ahead...

you wanna define a guy by an at bat or what's known about him.

player 1 - contact hitter, low K/low BB, not known for power, good D

player 2 - contact hitter, low K/low BB, not known for power, good D

you think he's alex gonzalez? you think he's garciappara? you think he's arod? you think he's a 220lb. hulk? you think he's gonna park some 400ft'rs?

seriously....

who is cedeno? if my point isnt valid...

you think cedeno looking at 1-2 extra pitches per at bat makes him a non-neifi hitter? you just waiting on those 400ft shots? what exactly are you seeing here?

dont get confused by what a guy is NOW vs. what he CAN BE.

we live in the present and all the promise in the world cant make things happen now just cuz theyre supposed to eventually.

projection is projection...its not wasting in the present...it shows up later.

hell...if you wanna "get real" just looking at what he's done he is neifi this year...but that's not worth much...if you look at his approach, how his ab's are playing out and the end result...he IS neifi right now.

Nice of the Cubs to show up for Ryno's Day.

Now only if they could have been here the rest of the season...

BTW, did anyone else enjoy the booing of McFail during the Retirement ceremony introduction?
Better be careful cub fans, we keep this up, we might not be able to get other Team Presidents who are satisfied with mediocrity.

CUBS WIN!!!!!!!!!!! IN DUSTY WE TRUSTY!!!!!!!

E-pat is 0 for 1 with a sac fly and a walk in his WT debut for anyone interested. I am surprised they moved him up 2 levels. Anyone think he gets a look after the AA playoffs if he does well at WT.

A Cedeno and Hairston middle infield doesn't look too bad for next year. Save some money for pitching and the outfield? Too bad we couldn't have had this combination earlier in the year. Oh wait...

On a different note, tomorrow's game features the pitching duel of the two ugliest MLB.com pictured players in MLB history.

Congratulations, guys. You're hideous.

since im not one for overpaying a SS slugger money just cuz he's a SS who can hit...im all for having cedeno and/or neifi play SS next year and pouring the excess into dependable bats.

nomar's not doing much to drag himself outta town being a team player and then some (when his crotch isnt falling off and rolling down the baselines).

a lot might have to do with how much nomar will come back for guarenteed vs. incentive money.

should be a hell of an offseason.

Cedeno = Neifi?:

Cedeno: Perez:

Age 22 Age 32
B/A 250 B/A 270
obp: 286 obp:300
slg: 333 slg 393

The thing that Cedeno has working for him is his age and the fact that the Cub coaches say he has turned the corner, he has matured. He has proven himself at AAA, AA and the AFL. Can he do it? The problem is we don't know. Let's find out before next year. Today he is impressive, but let's see him for a month and see. Heck Neifi did a great job but there is no upside. Ronny is a "potential" upside. Let's see. Everyday.

scooterÆ

asked a friend about berg...low 90s fastball, sinker/slider, similar build/makeup to prior (but not anywhere near the tallent)

basically a big kid with a big fastball working on a 3rd pitch and learning to control the 2 he has under his belt.

he got his info 2nd hand, too...maybe we'll see him one day, but doubtful he'll make any cubs top-10/20 prospect lists any time soon without a good showing next year somewhere above A-ball.

From what I read about Berg it sounds to me like any MLB future he has is a Middle relief ROOGY type. The name Ben Weber comes to mind reading his scouting report. He is suppose to start tuesday for Peoria. Its a DH with Guzman starting the other game.

Peoria doesn't play a DH this week, but according to the Chief's website Guzman will start Tuesday's game, with Weber scheduled to be the first reliever of the game.

I just might have to make myself a little trip to Beloit for that one.

Len said they did during the game today. The next month should be interesting with Hendry coming out and saying he would like to see Cedeno and Murton get alot of PT in sept. and Baker saying that neccsarly wont happen. How many times has Hendry said he would like to see something happen and Baker does the oppisite.

Andy:
"A Cedeno and Hairston middle infield doesn't look too bad for next year."

Yeah, not too bad if we want to be 20 games under .500. If we have them as our starting middle IF's we better have Damon and Giles in OF and Wagner is the pen.

As a lot of you here at TCDR know, nobody here is a bigger Ronny Cedeno booster than ol' Arizona Phil, but I doubt he will be the Cubs shortstop next season or the year after. And it isn't because he won't be a solid every day MLB shortstop. Rather, I think it increasingly likely that the Pirates will be the Cubs off-season trading pardner vis-a-via Corey Patterson (the Pirates are building their club around pitching & defense, and an outfield of Duffy-Patterson-Bay would fit that). The Pirates are just the small market club where Patterson could "recover his lost game" (PIRATES: Forget everything the Cubs told you, just play...). With minimal fan interest and little media scrutiny, Pittsburgh would be an ideal place for C-Pat to play. And we all know that JIm Hendry LOVES to make deals with Pirates GM Dave Littlefield. They're buddies.

In return for C-Pat, I would expect the Cubs to acquire Jack Wilson (who--like C-Pat--has had an "off" year, and who will be making $4.6 mil plus incentives in 2006), and who (also like Patterson) will be a free-agent after 2007. As part of the deal, I would expect the Cubs to send back a younger shortstop to replace Jack Wilson as the Pirates every day SS, and that would be Ronny Cedeno. In fact, something like C. Patterson-R. Cedeno-R. Hill (or Mitre) for J. Wilson-O. Perez-Mackowiak would seem to fit.

Perez is eligible for arbitration for the first time after this season, and has been a behaviour problem for the Pirates all year (came to Spring Training out of shape, broke his toe kicking a laudry basket, 6+ ERA before that). Mackowiak (FA after 2007) would fit Dusty's desire for a general handy-man on a bench shortened by a 12-man pitching staff (Mac can play LF-CF-RF-3B-2B-1B), replacing Macias as the "super-sub" and Holly as the team's #1 lefty PH.

From the Pirates POV, Cedeno and Hill would replace Jack Wilson and Oliver Perez, and do it more cheaply. With Zach Duke having emerged as a present & future ace, and with the problems the Bucs have had with Oliver Perez, not to mention Perez being eligible for arbitration, I believe the Pirates will trade Perez this coming off-season, if not to the Cubs then to semebody. And the Cubs have eady-made replacements for both Wilson (that being Cedeno) and Perez (that being Hill or Mitre). And Patterson has GOT to be a temptation for a club like the Pirates, thinking they could be the one to tap Corey's huge potential and reap big divadends (by trading him before he becomes a FA, of course!).

Or, I could be wrong. I usually am. We'll see...

.

AZ Phil,

That is an interesting scenerio you laid out. I know Wilson is a huge fan fav in Pit so I doubt he would get traded, but working off your theory this might be a good trade.

Cubs
Dunn
Mackowiak

Reds
Perez
Hill
one of the MLP we have to put on the 40 man at the end of the year or there in the rule V draft (Brownlie, Marmol, Nolasco, Ryu)
Pirates:
Cpat
Mitre

dunn?

Does anybody know of a good bears blog? I love this site for cubbie information, but I've still got 4 or 5 weeks of hope left for the Bears season, whereas the Cubs season ...

I think the "off-year" for Jack Wilson was last year, not this year:

2001: .223/.255/.295
2002: .252/.306/.332
2003: .256/.303/.353
2004: .308/.335/.459
2005: .237/.281/.346

Granted PNC is pretty tough on the righties but Jack Wilson is going to make us remember Alex Gonzalez and not in any good ways. He does have a heckuva glove though.

The trade above though would probably just be worth it for Oliver Perez.

http://bears.mostvaluablenetwork.com/

It's the only Bears blog I know of...

From Ken Rosenthal:

After trading outfielder Matt Lawton to the Yankees, the Cubs remain open to offers for second baseman Todd Walker and outfielder Todd Hollandsworth, according to a rival general manager. Outfielder Jeromy Burnitz would be more difficult to move as he can exercise a $7 million option on his contract.

My prediction and/or hope is that Walker and Holly end up with the Mets for Royce Ring. The Mets could use Walker to fill in at 2nd. After that Cameron injury they could use a 4th outfielder better than Gerald Williams. Ring would not make that bad of a 2nd LOOGY to go along with Ohman for next year. Ring is at AAA Norfolk so I don't think he has to go threw waivers.

Problem is I don't think Burnitz made it through waivers....

The report was that only Lawton, Holly and Walker did

good bears day today. Orton is named the starter and Benson signs. Orton will struggle, but the bears QB sitution is like the NFL version of Cedeno v. Perez. You had 2 guys who aren't the greatest but one has youth and the possiblity of getting better and Hutchinson just sucks and is not going to get better. He was demoted all the way to 4th string ouch! Kittner is not going anywhere because he is Ron Turner's version of Macias, but atleast he can play better than the gremlin can. So hutch is probably getting cut on FRI when the 1st roster cuts have to be done.

I should clarify....

The problem is that Ken Rosenthal is a complete dumb-ass. Other then the fact that I don't believe Burnitz cleared waivers, his option next year is a mutual option(Cot's Contracts has it as a team option) with a reasonable $500,000 buyout.

doubt walker will go anywhere unless someone blows the cubs away...he's just so cheap next year...if the cubs really wanted rid of him, they could wait til the very limited 2nd base market dies and pretty much name a non-robbery price...if it even takes that long.

i'd be pretty upset to see him go even with the possibility of a garciappara/t.walker middle infield stinking up things occasionally.

Yeah, That thing W/ Burny had me dumbfounded too. Maybe there's a contract clause that if he gets traded it becomes a player option? With the way Ellis has been hitting in Oakland that leaves the Mets as his only suitors. Rob is Walker any better than what the Angels run at DH every night that they would want to trade for him? The thing with Walker even though I would rather see Hairston or a return of Grudz in 06 at second I hope Hendry doesn't give him away for a Justin Berg or Olivio Astachio. Rem was DFA'd today by the Red Sox.

Depends on what mood Scioscias is in, I guess. It's been a lot of Casey Kotchman lately with Bengie Molina getting AB's when he's not catching and the occassional one by Garrett when something is ailing him. Whether any of that is better then Walker, I don't know. I don't see the Angels being all that interested and Bill Stoneman just doesn't like making moves during the season.

He certainly wouldn't give up much, that's for sure. The Angels love their farm system (and rightfully so, probably best in the majors right now) and unlike our fair Cubbies, have no problem making room for the kids to play.

Speaking of prospects in the angels system, here's a guy that you need to know about...

SS Brandon Wood

20 years old
just hit: .322/.385/.674 with 41 HR's/50 2B/47 BB/122 K

and his glove seems to be at least average. Needs to cutdown on the K's a bit and sure it's A ball, but good lord. He'll be playing in the AFL this year.

Anaheim is loaded with middle infield prospects..Aybar, Kendrick, Callaspo, etc.

Cubs
Dunn
Mackowiak

Reds
Perez
Hill
one of the MLP we have to put on the 40 man at the end of the year or there in the rule V draft (Brownlie, Marmol, Nolasco, Ryu)
Pirates:
Cpat
Mitre

So the Pirates would trade Oliver Perez, just a season removed from a sub 3.00 ERA and a plethora of Ks for a guy who strikes out nearly as much as Perez strikes out other batters and Mitre?

2.5m for todd walker is just too good to give away for anything, even prospects, imo.

hell, hairston was worth 1.9m this year...cubs got a nice gift with todd walker who could have gotten more money from texas this past offseason to sign a contract with the cubs (and then bitch about for a little while after he realized what him and his agent just did).

hehe...

oddly, i dunno if anyone else has noticed, but you cant have a cubs article with player quotes this year without walker all over it.

he seems to either be a media-savy loudmouth or a spokesman of sorts for the players...i wouldnt read too much into how he got this role besides he's an approachable guy, but he's always got something to say.

In the Hendry set of the Hendry/McPhail (rhymes with fail) interviews that sent me over the edge last week, Hendry very pointedly did not mention Walker in his future plans, so hence I expect him to be dealt. I supsect Hendry, from what I have read in the press and the web, has a hard on for Soriano who comes out as FA this season. He is the typicaly toolsy player with poor fundamentals and poor defense that the Cubs expect they will "fix." Then management will wonder at the end of another season about the team's mysterious inability to score runs, their low .OBP, and the commission of a slew of unprofessional mistakes. Hence Walker may be dealt over the next 3 days as he is probably the most valuable commodity the Hendry can leverage to a contender.

If you have paid for the ESPN insider content check out Gary Gillette's column where he goes into detail all the mental mistakes the Cubs made in Mark Prior start against Atlanta where they lost 3-1 last week. Although Atlanta made its share of mistakes, the Cubs's outmistaked them, reearning the nicknamed "the Flubs." (That's Gillette, not me.)

As an alternative to the Soriano disaster, if I was GM'ing the Cubs, and in love with Patterson's "potential" as a certain GM is, and if it was certain Dusty would be coming back for at least one more season, I would try to win it in 2006 and let the following seasons take care of themselves. This is not because I prefer veterans over rookies/young players, but a realization that my particular big shot manager hates giving ABs to players with less than 4 years in the big leagues.

Therefore I would see if I could pry Jeff Kent away from the Dodgers given the toxic situation that has developed in LA and that Milton Bradly, the other half of explosion, is probably untradeable. At least according baseballprosectus.com, Kent would be an improvement over Walker defensively, and he is still a good offensive player and he is one of Dusty's pals. I would also see if I could pick up Kenny Lofton from Philadelphia (I am not sure if Lofton is on a one year contract or not). He would be an insurance lead-off man if the next two parts of the plan do not come about. That plan would be go go after Furcal for SS and Brian Giles hard as free agents. Hopefully, more thought and money would be spend on picking up some decent bench players rather then the dreck we have had the last 3 seasons. Also, if the money is left over, another starter, perhaps Kevin Millwood, would have to be obtained (I believe that A.J. Burnett and/or Jason Schmidt are Boston/New York bound). The line-up would be (again this is not my ideal, but accepting the biases of Dusty and Hendry):

Furcal SS
Lofton CF
Lee 1b
Giles RF
Ramirez 3b
Kent 2b
Barrett C
Patterson CF

Starters
Zambrano
Prior
Millwood
Wood
Maddux

BP
Dempster
Hill
Ohman
Williams
Novoa
?

Bench
N. Perez
J. Macias
Cedeno
Murton
Hairston
Blanco

Yes, I know there is gagging already all over the TCR at see Macias back. But both Dusty and Hendry seem to love Macias's versatility. Also, I suspect that Cedeno or Murton will be used as trade bait, as the earlier post discussed on trading with Pittsburgh.

Again, the above is not what I would do, but what I think might happen if Hendry and Dusty come back and the Cubs are really given a 100 million dollar payroll budget. At least it would be line-up we could hope on (although age and health issues could make it problematic).

Another likely scenario is the Cubs make some half-hearted jabs a the top free agents, sign a couple of cripples or journeymen to incentive deals (see Burnitz and Garcippara last season), and improve the cash flow bottom line by with a payroll of around 65 million dollars, and say they will win with "pitching and defense." I have bridges in Brooklyn that are also for sale.

I meant Lofton in LF. Apologize for the miss.

IENPW,

For the reasons that the Bucks would trade Perez go read AZ Phil's post 26.

CFIG,

Yes Hendry has a hard-on for Soriano but he wants him in the OF. His arm and speed would make him a good RF where I think he would play if the Cubs did get him. Soriano is the Piazza of 2b. Yes he sucks on D but he'll hit 40 HR and have 100+ RBI and would be an upgrade if he was at 2b over walker. The word this morning is that CLE is making a run at him. Maybe we could get Dubois back ha ha.

CF in G - That bench is an impossibility even for this regime. No speed, no power, and not a one of them that can spell Lee @ 1B. We can all assume that the '06 bench will have only 5 components (not 6), since the 12 man pitching staff is mandatory at Clark & Addison.

Please get over the infatuation of Kenny Lofton. The man is 38 years old has no power, no ability to drive in runs and his speed is quickly fading. The end is near on him.

Basically Lofton is Scott Podesnik except without the ability to steal tons of bases. Lofton works out well in high powered offenses but will be expected to carry a much greater offensive load if he came to Chicago, and he will fail miserably at it.

However Lofton does fit into Chicago's plans of getting older and more veteran dominated. Because adding more veterans since 2003 has really helped us win more.

Hmm...I'm detecting sarcasm...

Meanwhile Cedeno has the right attitude...

"If I play regularly, I feel more comfortable," Cedeno said. "I play one day here, then two days off. I've got to be ready for next year, and I've got to play every day here. I have to show Dusty I can play every day next year."

Cedeno is clearly lobbying hard for a job next year. He knows the time is now to show he has the ability to play everyday, but he isnt too thrilled about the one day on 2-3 days off approach. He cant show his skills if he doesnt play. He knows that, we Cubs fans know that. Baker could care less.

Dusty doesn't like this kind of dissention in his ranks. So it will be intersting to see what he does with Cedeno. Bench him or play him regularly. Usually when players speak out about playing time their next destination is another team.

All we have ever asked is give shots to prospects where the Cubs have no talent in the majors due to lousy players or injuries, Like LF and SS. Some players work out, some players dont. You keep working in guys till one clicks. What you dont do is keep plugging in the lousy veterans. Because that route never leads to anything good.

Other TCR posters may not agree. That is your opinion on that side of the arguement, this is my belief on this side of the arguement. You accomplish nothing playing the lousy veterans, your teams never get better by doing it. And since 2003 the Cubs have not gotten any better by doing it.

Hear, hear, MikeC! Of course, tonight's starter for the Dodgers is a righty, so I assume we'll see Neifi at short. After all, the kids can only produce when they're given the right matchups. Right?

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