Game 70 Thread / Cubs @ Blue Jays (3 of 3)

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SP *Ted Lilly SP Jessie Litsch
  6-5, 5.13, 77 K, 26 BB, 79 IP
7-2, 3.42, 42 K, 12 BB, 76.1 IP
LF Reed Johnson RF Alex Rios
RF *Kosuke Fukudome 2B Marco Scutaro
DH Derrek Lee 3B Scott Rolen
3B Aramis Ramirez CF Vernon Wells
CF *Jim Edmonds LF Kevin Mench
C Geovany Soto C Rod Barajas
2B Mark DeRosa 1B *Brad Wilkerson
1B *Micah Hoffpauir DH #Greg Zaun
SS Ryan Theriot SS John McDonald












Happy Father's Day!



I keed.

Happy Father's Day indeed. 

wgn played brickhouse's entire HOF speech (ford frick) after the game.

never heard it...good one.

Can someone please explain to me Lou's decision to put Marmol in when the club was up by 6 runs? I don't understand his thinking sometimes regarding his use of Marmol, did he actually think the guy needed the work, even after his stint the day before? There are other pitchers available in the BP for these kinds of games, no?

Two days in a row isn't a reason to panic. Getting him work in a blowout also isn't a reason to panic. He's only thrown 8 innings in June and we're halfway through the month. Lou has been considerably more judicious about using him in June than he was in April and May. Not only that, but we're seeing fewer appearances where he's being asked to go multiple innings. Heck, he was on pace to appear in close to 100 games earlier this season. That number is declining steadily. If he works in 5 of the next 10 games, he'll be on pace to appear in 82 games this season, and if he throws 1.0 innings in each, he'll be on pace to throw over 90 innings. That's certainly a little high, but not Tommy John high. I do think Lou will work him less in the next month or so to get him ready for the stretch run,

The thing with Lou, I think, is that he didn't want to dig out of another deep hole with this club in the first couple of months. He leaned awful hard on Marmol and Wood early, but now, they're both pitching less often in the last 2 or 3 weeks.

Back to my original point, I'm quickly learning that Marmol needs to pitch regularly. If he sits down there for two or three days, he's awfully wild when he comes in. Usually takes him two or three batters to get things squared away from a control standpoint. If he didn't pitch today, and doesn't pitch tomorrow in the exhibition, then it would be AT LEAST Tuesday before he threw again. Throwing him only 1 inning over the course of 5 days just isn't going to work. He needs regular work to be effective. To me, it doesn't do anybody any good to sit him for two and three days at a time after every single one of his outings and then have him come in and walk the world.

He's only thrown 8 more innings than Wood and 9 more than Howry. I don't think he's being overworked as badly as everyone else seems to think. In fact, the entire bullpen is being worked pretty hard, but nobody brings up the other guys for some reason. If he had some history of dead arm or other arm/shoulder injuries, that's one thing. I think he's shown that he has a terrific rubber arm. He can come back and pitch with no ill effects. 85 or 90 innings this season compared to 70 innings isn't going to send Carlos Marmol to Tommy John surgery.

EDIT: Wood is the guy I'm most concerned about, honestly. He's on pace to throw over 80 innings. He hasn't thrown those kind of innings in 4 years. I'm worried he's going to get a severe case of the tired arm in September and October.

I think Lou had a funny gut feeling about this game and put Marmol in...he was warming up anyway so just decided to use him. I know he'll probably get roasted for it but its not so horrible of a decision.

it's a day off tommorow, but yeah, marmol's on pace for what...90-100 appearances or something?

lou also used both lefties. wood was due to get some work in.

y.molina just got f'n destroyed on a play at the cheap out, too.

taken off on a stretcher...neck/back issue.

just awful... yet he still made the play.

Cardinals just won in extras on a Phillie's error. Just gave them the game.

Boy, that was a nice job by the Phillies giving that game away to the Cards today. No Pujols and yet the Cards keep winning. Annoying.

Phillies left 15 on base, including leaving the bases loaded 4 times.

Cards have had bad luck with injuries, good luck on the field.

Once every one hundred years or so
when sun doth shine and the moon doth grow
and the wins doth flow.

Well needless to say, the leagues were stunned
Whip crack with our monster bats, and the leagues were done
They asked us (snort) be you angels?
And we said nay, we are but Cubs. Rock!

Deepest apologies to the D.

Updated Cubs record without Soriano: 12-6

Molina has a mild concussion. He is staying overnight in the hospital for precautionary reasons. They aren't sure how much time he will miss, but probably not too much.

Lets take on the Rays! Do it for Lou and the Crocodile Hunter!!

Burnett not being shy about his desire to come to the Cubs...

Yes, please.

I prefer Sabathia, but Burnett would be a nice 2nd prize. The cubs would probably have to give up less for burnett too, though I anticipate any offer starting with hill. It will be interesting to see how much value hill actually has.

"I prefer Sabathia, but Burnett would be a nice 2nd prize."

Count me in this group also.....

It wont happen, but how nice would it be to get them both.

Sabathia or Burnett would be great, depending on the price. I'd prefer Rich Harden in perfect world, but his likelihood of staying healthy isn't as good. Still, I'd inquire with Beane about him before dealing for one of the other two.

because for the Indians to trade him, they are going to want 2 prospects with as much upside as a 1st round and sandwich round pick and the Cubs dont have that. Sabathia will most likely be traded to the Yankees (for a package featuring Austin Jackson and Ian Kennedy) or the Brewers (Rickie Weeks and Mat Gamel as the headliners). The closet thing the Cubs have would be Pie and Josh Donaldson. Burnett is the most likely target as him and Richardi really dont seem to get along and he would be willing to take cheap guys who can contribute for them this and next year like Cedeno as he needs to win to keep his job.

I'm sorry, but we are pining for a guy who is 6-6 with a 4.9 era?

Count me in the group of no thank you. Is that seriously the best we can do? Getting someone who just isn't what they used to be?

Molina has a mild concussion. He is staying overnight in the hospital for precautionary reasons. They aren't sure how much time he will miss, but probably not too much.

Concussions are tricky things. It's not being handled like it was in the 1960's when "you got your bell rung, shake it off tough guy". There are often surprisingly long lasting after effects that can happen. Don't forget it lead to former Cardinal/Giant catcher Mike Metheny retiring. Metheny had a series of concussions leading to a DL stint in May 2006 and retired the next offseason. Ryan Church missed over a month because of persisting headaches and dizziness. Church sustained the concussion May 20th. They thought he'd be back shortly after the concussion but finally had to put him on the DL June 10th (retroactive to June 6th).

Here are some links to "post-concussion syndrome":

and on Ryan Church:

here's the Molina link including video:

Is Rickie Weeks still considered to have that much upside?

I think they would jump on Weeks. He has alot of tools and the Brewers could find someone to give them a decent return because they think they know whats wrong with him.

Agree with inquiring about Harden Andrew, although it is nice to finally have a rotation that isn't dependent on an injury-prone ace. I'm afraid Harden would take us back to the Wood/Prior days.

Still worth checking into him though...

i would rather go the non sabathia route also i would think a single a
pitcher ,another and a infielder would do it,peoplearesaying we should trade
cedeno who has come back to earth ,but who is gonna be the backup ss
then i dont see that we can afford to trade him.


Today I read something really depressing:

Ricky Nolasco struck out 12, gave up 6 hits, 0 runs in 6.66 in a fish W.

Man, to give up this kid for the Juan Pierre experience is unbelievable.

Not trying to make you feel any worse, but Renyel Pinto is having a very nice year down in their bullpen, too. 2.27 ERA in 35 appearances. Heck, he's had a really nice start to his career. 3.09 career ERA in 128 relief innings.

Would sure like to have those guys around right now.

The real bummer about Nolasco/Pinto is that they were highly thought of at the time, unlike Dontrell (who seems to have lost it).

While we're beating outselves up, check out Ohman's numbers with the Braves. He's having a pretty good season.

I think Asciano has more long term potential than Ohman ever will have. I'd like to see Ohman's numbers at the end of the season.

Yet more examples of the danger of fixating on "Leadoff Hitter" skills. We way overpaid for Juan Pierre, because we were desperate for a base stealing. IMHO, the most useless and overrated skill to have on the club.

I'll give Hendry a pass on that trade, because he has come up on the winning end so many times. But this one was definitely a stinker.


Nolasco isn't special...he isn't even good...he isn't even average right now.

nice game, not a good trade, we're not missing him. 

Cub superscout Gary Hughes watching the Giants...rumors follow (although I doubt it means anything).

old news but still fun for those who liked Bizarro Superman...from View FTB, saw this link to the May Bizarro Baseball SI Cover

"Ricky Nolasco struck out 12, gave up 6 hits, 0 runs in 6.66 in a fish W."

Yeah, I don't think anyone among the die - hard fans are surprised by this development. No one wanted to see the kid traded, he looked like the real deal in the few appearances he had with the big league club before he was traded.

Do you mean Nolasco in spring training? He never pitched in a regular season game with the Cubs. Lets not get too excited by this kid he has a 4.72 career ERA 1.42 WHIP and seems to be a little prone to the home run ball. 14 in 80 innings pitched.

If we take anything away from that game its that our next opponent, the Rays can be stopped by good pitching.

Nolasco only pitched 20+ innings last year. Young, injury prone pitcher with good stuff. Can't believe the Cubs traded him.

At the time the Cubs traded for Juan Pierre, Sergio Mitre was out of minor league options and probably would have been lost off waivers sometime by the end of ST 2006 (probably to a team like the Marlins), Renyel Pinto was out of minor league options as of ST 2007 and would have had to spend the entire 2007 season on the Cubs 25-man regular season roster or else get lost off waivers (again, probably to a team like the Marlins), and Ricky Nolasco--though a fine young prospect--has spent much of the past two seasons down with elbow problems.

As for Pierre, because the Dodgers signed him as a Type "B" FA after the 2006 seson, the Cubs got a supplemental pick in the 2007 Rule 4 Draft, and used it to select catcher Josh Donaldson out of Auburn.

Donaldson had an outstanding debut season at Boise in 2007, but is struggling the first half offensively at Peoria (although he has improved defensively to the extent that he leads the organization's catchers in CS %).

I'll still take Donaldson's long-term potential and a medically clean Sean Gallagher as the Cubs #5 starter over whatever Nolasco could offer the Cubs at this time.

... thanks for the impressive analysis AZ Phil. Again.

Healthy Nolasco (7-4, 4.35 ERA, career win% .528) is essentially the equivalent of Ted Lilly (7-5, 4.76 ERA, career win% .528)--- and we're paying him $8 million.

Not that I'd rather have Nolasco in the rotation. Who knows when his arm will fall off.

of course Nolasco has rarely been healthy to this point and certainly would not have helped us last year to a division crowd.

And when you look at the peripherals and park factors, Lilly is still having a much better year and will when the season is all said and done.

what isn't rained out is the flight from Toronto to Albany, the 1 1/2 hour bus ride from Albany to Cooperstown and back for the flight to Tampa.

hope Z enjoyed seeing Ernie, Billy, Fergie, Harry and Sandberg's plaques and maybe Schilling's bloody sock on display...

good riddance to these games

CUBSTER: Didn't the Cubs pitchers scheduled to start in the Tuesday and Wednesday games at TB vs the Rays fly directly to Tampa-St. Pete from Toronto?

Also, the AZL Cubs contingent is supposed to remain in Cooperstown through tomorrow (they were to receive a VIP Tour of the Hall of Fame on Tuesday), so they could very easily play the AZL Padres at Doubleday Field tomorrow afternoon (albeit not on WGN America) if the HoF doesn't want to lose the ticket revenue (such as it is).

The Cubs regulars were scratched from the starting lineup after the 1st rain delay, so it's not like the fans weren't going to see the AZL Cubs from the gitgo today if the game had been played. They can just play the game tomorrow.

I do feel sorry for the AZL Cubs, though, because they were REALLY looking forward to getting some TV time on WGN. Having a chance to play in the Hall of Fame Game was a Big Deal for them

BTW, of all the suggestions made about how to proceed with the "Hall of Fame Game" in the future, I think the idea of playing it as an "Old Timers Game" the day before (Saturday afternoon) or the day after (Monday afternoon) the Sunday induction ceremony in August is the best one.

Doubleday Field is just enough of a bandbox (296-336-390-350-312) to allow a few of the Old Farts (I mean Beloved MLB Stars of the Past) to hit a dinger or two. It's really the perfect stadium for an Old Timers game.

Submitted by Jeff_Pico on Mon, 06/16/2008 - 10:39am.

I think Asciano has more long term potential than Ohman ever will have. I'd like to see Ohman's numbers at the end of the season.


JEFF P: I agree.

Ohman is going to be a FA after this season, and the Cubs control Ascanio (who has a higher ceiling than Ohman) for another six years, especially important next season when Ascanio should be the #1 candidate to replace Howry in the Cubs bullpen.

That trade was a steal for the Cubs.

Mariners fire GM Bill Bavasi...about time.

Chien-Ming Wang likely out for season, maybe back by September.

In regard to Wang, wow. If that's the case, the Cubs probably just lost their chance at Sabathia (or less likely Harden) as Cashman may have to deal Hughes now for pitching help.

In regards to Bavasi, that may accelerate Erik Bedard trade fantasies. There was NO way Bavasi could trade Bedard for less than the kind of haul he gave up, no way. There probably STILL isn't a way, too humiliating for the Mariners, but I suppose a bit easier now that Bavasi is out of the way.


They're saying Wang probably has a Lisfranc injury. How does that differ from any other foot sprain?

What? No jokes about Wang injuries? You guys are so couth.

"Do you mean Nolasco in spring training? He never pitched in a regular season game with the Cubs."

You're right, I was incorrect about seeing Nolasco in a regular season game - I was remembering when he came into a game after the trade with the Marlins, and blew away the Cub's hitters during that appearance. And I sure don't miss the O - Man; it would appear that his other former teammates might share in that sentiment as well.

The Wang thing makes me think again about the DH and A. L. pitchers having to bat in interleague games and World Series games played in N. L. parks.

At this point I don't care which way it goes, but the in the next CBA negotiations MLB and the MLBPA need to agree to either get rid of the DH and play N. L. rules in both leagues and increase rosters to 26 players, or else both leagues use the DH with rosters cut-back to 24 players. 

But there should be one set of rules for both leagues.

AZ Phil, AMEN brother, but won't happen. I think 26 guys/no DH is a great idea, with pitching specialization and the importance of protecting expensive arms, I can see 13-man staffs around the corner.

Won't happen because the average DH is a highly-paid vet, while the 26th guy is likely to be a minimum-wage extra. All that money going to Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, Thome, etc etc will instead go to a greedy owner. That's what I think the player's union thinks. Even though the overall membership would go up with 26-man rosters.

The DH sucks though. Obviously just my opinion on the matter. NL games are much more compelling in the later innings. Chim Chim the monkey from Speed Racer could manage an AL team.

And frequently does.

/Sorry Joe.

The Reds are in the NL

That's cold,

Funny, but cold.

AZ Phil: Didn't the Cubs pitchers scheduled to start in the Tuesday and Wednesday games at TB vs the Rays fly directly to Tampa-St. Pete from Toronto?
Probably the pitchers were sent ahead. I'm sure it was sad for the Boise team mates who flew from Idaho and back without anything to show for it but souvenir paperweights of Cooperstown with snow falling on the HOF. Not a bad day for the airline flying out of Boise though. Actually I taped the game hoping to see some of our youngins' that you've waxed so eloquently about.

The person most affected was Lou who missed out on a full day off, a day of floating on one of those pool chairs in his back yard with a drink with one of those pink umbrella's in it.

RHP Chien-Ming Wang was examined today at New York Presbyterian Hospital Columbia Medical Center by Yankees Team Physician, Dr. Stuart Hershon and Dr. Jason Greisberg, Foot and Ankle Specialist.
Imaging studies revealed a mid-foot sprain of the Lisfranc ligament of the right foot and a partial tear of the peroneal longus tendon of the right foot. Wang will be on crutches and wear a protective boot for a minimum of six weeks.


This is worse than an ankle sprain (except the dreaded high ankle sprain). It is a foot sprain, just specific to the midfoot ligaments. It's not the ankle (tibia-talus-fibula) which is proximal and not the hindfoot which would involve larger bones (calcaneus, talus, navicular). Apparently Wang felt a pop while running the bases Sunday vs the Astros.
He's sustained a ligamentous injury in the mid-foot (opposed to a dislocation or fracture+dislocation). This implies an injury in the midfoot ligaments involving the cuboid (lateral) and cuneiform bones (3 of these, medial-middle-lateral) as they connect to the base of the metatarsals. He also has a partial tear of the Palmaris longus tendon (underneath these ligaments), which is the same injury Jon Lieber had last year (Lieber had surgery on this). If there was displacement of the articulating bones it would require surgery to realign them, otherwise casting (nowadays a fracture brace/boot) for usually 6-10 weeks. In an athlete, it will impair running for as much as 3 months or longer. In a pitcher it will affect push-off. The reports I'm seeing say he's out for the rest of the year, which is what I'd expect as these are notoriously slow healing injuries.

here are some wilkipedia links to the anatomy...


my fantasy team thanks you, doc. (going off to make Joe another offer for Wang)

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  • soler vs inside breaking balls is scary.

    he's had 2 inside curve balls today where he reacted as if they were about to hit him even though they weren't that he bailed out of the box on, it was a called strike.

    crunch 8 min 5 sec ago view
  • j.urias optioned back to AAA...guess we wont be seeing him in the LAD series.

    crunch 15 min 19 sec ago view
  • so is him actually getting 2 hits in a game (2 doubles!)...first time he's even been on base 2 times in a game since 9 games ago on his 3/4, 1bb day.

    im ready for him to at least look like a 2-slot hitter since he's gonna be slotted there no matter what he does.

    crunch 1 hour 11 min ago view
  • That Heyward move to avoid Bryant's ball hit at him was a thing of beauty too.

    johann 1 hour 28 min ago view
  • 9 pitches in and this game already rules.

    HR, double...bryant's turn (who came out to a Kris Kross song for some horrible, horrible reason).

    ...2 run inning...zoobrest hitting streak at 14.

    crunch 1 hour 33 min ago view
  • First time I saw Herrera was yesterday. He took like 100 pitches, fouled off a ton off Lester.

    Very nice young player and perfect leadoff guy.

    The E-Man 2 hours 43 min ago view
  • Obviously not Phil. But he mentioned this on Wednesday.

    "Dominican Summer League (DSL) Opening Day is Saturday June 4th, so probably about 8-10 pitchers and position players presently at EXST in Mesa will be sent to the Cubs Dominican Academy (probably sometime this week) and be assigned to either DSL Cubs #1 or DSL Cubs #2."

    In the comments here:

    QuietMan 3 hours 22 min ago view
  • Per FanGraphs, Cubs have a 72.5% chance of winning today. Jinx! Next highest percentage on today's games is D-backs with a 64.7% chance (Greinke vs. Cesar Vargas, in Arizona.)

    Transmission 3 hours 22 min ago view
  • Phil, when will the Cubs start moving international players from EST to the Dominican for the start of the DSL season?

    diamondjaxx 3 hours 59 min ago view
  • It was a nice barehand pick-up but he was close enough to 1st where he could underhand the ball to Bryant. The trouble he's had has been with the overhand throw. He's definitely working on it, but I don't know if that play was a good example of progress made.

    K Dub 7 hours 11 min ago view
  • Phil, have you heard anything about the condition of Oscar De La Cruz's elbow? Has there been talk of a time table? Is he throwing?

    K Dub 13 hours 31 sec ago view
  • i was distracted for most of the game and also missed the first few innings.

    but yeah, any time he makes a good fielding+throwing play on D it's worthy of praise and a trip to pizza hut for a personal pan pizza and $1 worth of songs on the juke box.

    seriously, i'll take it.

    crunch 15 hours 5 min ago view
  • BTW, CRUNCH, Lester made a nice bh pick-up and toss to Bryant. Did you catch it?

    He's been workin' on the D!

    The E-Man 17 hours 1 min ago view
  • j.urias didn't have a good debut...

    2.2ip 5h 4bb 3k...3 r/er...1 wp

    81 pitches. yow.

    crunch 19 hours 45 min ago view
  • Ach - I really only saw it quickly and thought that's where it it. No matter - he crushed it and the video board people did not have to repair the panels from what I saw!

    The E-Man 19 hours 57 min ago view
  • Totally agree with that re Soler, whereas Bryant seems to get the close call (so far) this year.

    Good to see Baez get a couple knocks today - been awhile

    Eric S 20 hours 4 min ago view